George Bryson's "Calvinism" Reviewed then Vines

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602, or toll free across the United States, it's 1 -877 -753 -3341.

And now with today's topic, here is James White.

Why George Bryson's Anti-Calvinist Strategy Matters

I'm not sure how much it would have impacted the Bible Answer Man broadcast in December of 2003 had I heard the Pastors Conference, the Calvary Chapel Pastors Conference that took place beforehand, specifically the comments made by one of my two opponents in that debate on the Bible Answer Man broadcast, George Bryson.

But it certainly does give some insight into the mindset of those who seek to oppose Reformed theology and its proclamation to listen to George Bryson talking to Calvary Chapel pastors. Now, of course, Gene Cook has begun responding to this MP3, which I had not heard before, at least I don't recall ever having heard it before.

I think I would have remembered it had I heard it before. And so what I'd like to do is play just a few moments of it here at the beginning, then go back to the Vines sermon that we've been covering before.

But I think we can learn a lot about the mindset of those who oppose quite simply biblical theology. I mean, honestly, most of the time I don't say a whole lot about my debates in the sense of who won and so on and so forth.

But I don't think anyone's going to really fault me for saying that when I debated George Bryson at the Anaheim Vineyard and when we had the Bible Answer Man broadcast, both were tremendously useful promotional pieces for Calvinism.

OK, George lost. He lost on every level you could lose. He lost on argumentation. He lost on presentation. And he especially lost on exegesis and consistency. The written debate that we did in the CRI Journal, the debate itself, the radio program.

There's no question about who came out on top and all those things. And yet George Bryson is still considered to be the great Calvinist slayer for the Calvary Chapel denomination, which I find very, very odd.

And as we listen to some of these statements that he makes, I would just remind you that we have since this time, since he said these things, since we had the Bible Answer Man broadcast debate, he has been invited to debate me again up in Salt Lake City, Salt Lake City, Provo area.

And it didn't work out because he would not allow for cross examination. And now you tell me why you would not allow for cross examination. What what reason could there be for you not to want to engage in cross examination and debate other than you don't want to debate?

I mean, if there's no cross examination, then you just pick up his his presentations and you pick up my presentation. You play him side by side and that's all you got. If you will not answer questions, if you will not have to.

I mean, just just watch the DVD of my cross examination of George Bryson on John 6 and you will see why he never wants to go through that again. The fact is, George Bryson can't go through that text with someone who knows the text themselves.

Just not possibly can. Now, obviously, from my perspective, that would make me go, you know what? I need to change my viewpoint. I need to change my beliefs. But for some odd reason, when you're opposed to reform theology, you just you know it's wrong.

You just know it's wrong. And so that's all you need to say. And that's all you need to do. And and and that's that's that's the end of that. So listen to just this first section of a number of minutes.

I'll break in a couple of times, but I'll just pretty much let it roll and listen to the attitude. Listen to the listen to the language. I mean, he will at times say, well, you know, we know that these people are Christians and things.

But listen to what he says about being hoodwinked and falsehoods and deception. And it's sort of hard to know exactly where he comes down on these things. He certainly has a very low view of of reform theology and a very high view of his own understanding of reform theology.

But the reason Calvinists don't win the lost is because Calvinism or reform theology is sterile. It just doesn't produce. And so if you want children and they do, where are you going to get them? Got to get somebody else's children.

So they look to groups like us that are growing and lots of young pastors. We're not let's face it. We're not terribly theologically sophisticated. And I personally don't think we need to be. I don't think every Christian needs to be a philosopher.

I think we ought to have enough understanding of philosophy to know what's harmful and what's inconsistent with Scripture. But it's the same with theology. And I love theology. I consider myself a theologian.

But theology isn't the answer. God's word is.

Theology, Biblicism, and the Category Error

I just need to stop and just point out the utter logical, rational incoherence of what is being said right now. I'm sorry, but these words don't mean anything. It's not theology. It's the answer. It's what the Bible teaches.

And what does the Bible teach again? As soon as you say the Bible teaches X, what is that? That's called theology. I mean, I'm sorry, but but this makes no sense. There's there's no substance to it. And I would like to think that the people sitting in front of him are looking at him with quizzical looks on their faces going, what are you babbling about?

What are you talking about? But unfortunately, I don't I don't think that's probably what's happening. But, folks, don't don't get upset with George. This is the reason why you and I both know all sorts of folks who came into a Calvary Chapel from wherever.

Maybe they were saved in the Calvary Chapel and Calvary Chapel says, study the Bible, read the Bible. Now, they throw a lot of traditions in. Yeah, but they say, study the Bible. And the reason that Calvary Chapel pastors and Calvary Chapel people will continue to leave as long as reformed theology is denied is why?

Because they're reading the Bible. It's the Bible that teaches it. It's I mean, George, you know, I would debate George Bryson any day on pure exegesis. Let's just pick I'll pick seven texts. You pick seven texts.

We take a certain amount of time and we do cross examination based on the original text. George Bryson will never do it because he knows he can't. But I would do it. That's where my confidence is. It's in the text.

And as long as they keep reading the text, they're going to keep going. You know what? What we're teaching on this isn't isn't quite in line. And I wonder why. And as soon as they start asking, they get shut down.

And that's when they they then, you know, realize that things are not all well.

When you take George Bryson's perspective, a little bit tongue in cheek, people are always trying to pigeonhole me. Ask me, are you a Calvinist or an Arminian or some kind of Calvinian or something like that?

And I say, I'm none of those things. I'm a Biblicist. And of course, they they get real upset. They say, we're all, you know, Biblicists. We all want to believe the Bible. But I want to know what your interpretation of the Bible is.

And my response to that is, and with all due respect, the moment they're willing to give up calling Calvinism the doctrines of grace, then I'll give up calling myself a Biblicist.

Now, let me stop right there. There is no logical or rational connection between those two statements. And George Bryson couldn't demonstrate that there is. He can object to the concept of the doctrines of grace if he wants to.

But what does that have to do with the fact that when you call yourself a Biblicist, you're engaging in a category error because you're not answering how you interpret the Bible? There is no logical connection there.

And that's one of the reasons that George struggles so much with reformed theology, is that reformed theology is logical and he does not think in logical categories. He tries to. He tries to pretend that he does.

But he very frequently engages in equivocation. He makes category errors where he thinks that Calvinism is being inconsistent. He even proclaims that says it's being illogical. But in reality, he's just missing the point.

He doesn't he does not think with great clarity or consistency in any way.

The moment they give up calling the Calvinist or reformed version of the gospel the true gospel, then I will stop calling myself a Biblicist.

Again, no logical connection between these things. And I would simply ask the question of those who object to referring to Calvinism as the true gospel. What do you want us to say? It's the false gospel?

I mean, what honestly do you wish us to say? Are you not saying that what you believe is the true gospel and Calvinism isn't? I mean, come on, let's let's let's try, you know, to pretend like we're applying the same standards to both sides.

And try to think logically. But in fact, that if if there's a proper term for Calvary Chapel, it is Biblicism in terms of our approach. We're not some of us like theology, some of us like philosophy, but our real heart and soul and what we promote and push is simply the Bible.

We want people to get into the Bible. We want people to believe the Bible. We want them to live by the Bible. Now, listen to what he says here. And theology doesn't come automatic or it's not a necessarily or natural result of studying the Bible.

Catch that? So if you so if you study the Bible, you really won't be learning theology. Well, what exactly will you be learning? I mean, it's just I. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, as frustrating as it is, you have to just chuckle and go, hey, look, if this is the guy that they're sending out after us.

Well, we don't really need to be overly worried here because you get very far.

It's it's it's bad. I think good theology corresponds to the Bible. It's absolutely good. Theology is a reflection of what is said in Scripture. But you don't become a theologian just by becoming a student of Scripture.

And if you never become a theologian, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think you first and foremost need to know what the Bible says.

And now, of course, theology is the knowledge of God. We're to grow in the grace and knowledge. Theology is Christ. We study the Bible. You grow in theology. And so it's just evidently theology for him.

I don't know what theology is, but it's not what any of the rest of us define it as.

That's the bottom line. However, we live in a world where there are lots of people who speak and think and act theologically.

And if you act theologically, I'm sorry. Maybe you think of me laughing at this, but it's incoherence. And this is someone who's put up as an expert and he's going to later say, people just try to dismiss me because this.

But I know what I'm talking about. I just want to go, yo, bro, man, you know, when you when you try to become an expert in one particular area, but you don't have sort of the foundational stuff, you know, down, you can think, you know, something real well, but you're you're completely speaking a different language.

And that's that's sort of what's going on.

Why Anti-Calvinist Rhetoric Depends on Misrepresentation

Aware of the language used by theologians, sometimes it can be intimidating. It sometimes can be overwhelming and it can especially be alluring more for young people than any others. Come over here, little boy.

It promotes a kind of spiritual elitism and arrogance. Arrogance, yes. And so my goal isn't to try to get Calvinist to become non-Calvinist. That's for sure. I think that's a real hard road. I've seen it happen since I've written a book and it's been circulated now for a number of years.

I get letters from people who came out of Calvinism from reading that book, but I'm usually surprised.

Yes, but believe me, having seen that book, I'm really surprised, too, because all that means is that person thinks they were a Calvinist, but sort of like that alleged Calvinist called the Bible Answer Man last week or the week before that, who hadn't a clue what Calvinism was to begin with.

What I really want to accomplish and I really have confidence I can accomplish.

Now, listen, listen to this, folks. Listen to this.

You can accomplish is I can keep people from becoming Calvinist. That's not so difficult, and I'll explain why.

In other words, I can poison the well and misrepresent things so much as to create as much confusion as possible so that someone will never embrace Reformed theology. That's really how it ends up coming out.

And I know this is going to be a very harsh comparison, but I've made this claim. If you give me somebody that has never been a Calvinist,.

I want you to let the whole thing play through here. He's going to be talking about Mormonism. He's going to parallel Mormonism and Calvinism. He's going to say they're not the same thing, but the parallel he's going to make anyways.

And he's going to claim to be an expert on Mormonism. I would love to see just how much of an expert on Mormonism George Bryson really is, given the shallowness of his presentation of Reformed theology.

I imagine the Farms guys would have fun with him. But Ben, as it may, even listen to the terminology he uses of Mormon at one point. And just, well, you'll see when it happens.

I'm exposed to the Mormon faith. And let me talk to them first. I did a year as a missionary to Mormons. I lived in Idaho Falls in Pocatello, Idaho, and I did a great deal of study on Mormonism. And I know enough about Mormonism that if you give me somebody before they become a Mormonist, the chances are extremely slim they become a Mormon after they talk to me.

A Mormonist?

What on earth is a Mormonist?

Now once they become a Mormon, I mean I don't care how much you know about Mormonism, once they're emotionally hooked, they're locked in, getting them out is really tough. And those people who feel they have been called to get Mormons to become non-Mormons or to get Mormons to become Christians, they got a difficult task.

Isn't anybody who would be a missionary amongst the Mormons, isn't that what they're doing, is trying to get Mormons to become Christians? That's a tough road to hoe. Well, that's true. No question about that.

It's a lot easier to keep people from becoming a Mormon. It's exactly the same thing with Reformed Theology. Now again, I'm not comparing Reformed Theology with Mormonism, except that the psychological situation is the same.

You give me a person who's never been exposed to Calvinism, has not been brought in, and has not made emotional and psychological commitments to Reformed Theology, and I can keep them out. I can show them things, and things we're going to talk about today, that would be so counterintuitive, so obviously off-base from Scripture, they would never give Reformed Theology a second thought.

That's what I really want to do. I don't want everybody...

Now did you hear that? I want to poison people against it so they'll never even examine it. Let's just stop for a moment and think about what is being said here. They cannot answer the exegetical foundations of Reformed Theology.

They can't do it. And they know it, and they've given it up, and in fact don't even seem to care while they're calling themselves Biblicists. They won't fight the battle on the level of the Bible. They will poison minds so that they will not engage the subject and actually examine it.

Isn't that amazing? I'm left absolutely stammering that anyone could make the statements that George Bryson makes in this presentation and not realize, you know what, we must be on the losing side of this argument the way that we have to approach this.

It's absolutely amazing.

It truly is. Become an expert on Reformed Theology, or to know everything there is to know about Calvinism. But I want them to know enough so that when it comes along, they have some kind of immune system and they don't fall for it.

Because there are some very subtle ways in which people say, how can anybody believe that? People can believe anything if their guard is down. If you understand, you know, if you're not a Mormon and you hear for the first time what Mormons believe from a non-Mormon, you go, how can they believe that?

Well, you can believe anything if that's all you've been taught your whole life. And if it's presented to you and packaged to you in such a way that it seems palatable or, you know, attractive, etc. So today there's a generation of Reformed theologians and Calvinists who, because they themselves aren't reproducing, they're not winning, try to find a church that grew up based on Reformed Theology.

It just doesn't happen. Now, did you catch that?

I mean, let's face it. One of the criticisms that can be made of many Calvary Chapel people is they have no concept of church history at all. None. And so he can make a statement like that with a straight face.

He can actually say that because his experience is so narrow and his knowledge of church history is completely non-existent. And sadly, the people he's talking to, likewise, have so little connection with church history that they can accept this, except there's got to be some of them sitting there going, well, wait a minute, I know churches that are different than that right here in my own area.

But, you know, we don't get to see the looks on people's faces going, yeah, what?

Now, wait a minute. Is he saying grew up through church history, or is it in the Calvary Chapel mold of got big? Probably got big. Got big. So, in other words, you started out with a little group of people, Calvary Chapel, and we, you know.

Take over a shopping mall. Take over a shopping mall, renovate the shopping mall. Next thing you know, we're overflowing the shopping mall. And that's how grew up gets done. Right. Okay.

Nothing about, you know, growing in grace and things like that, because that's theology. And we don't do that.

We're Biblicists or something. I don't know. So they come to places like Calvary Chapel and other evangelical churches to get all the new blood. Every hardcore Calvinist that I know today came to Christ through a non-Calvinist.

R .C. Sproul gives a great example, a very typical example.

Now, catch this. I mean, I almost feel like sending this to R .C., but.

R.C. Sproul, John Gerstner, and the Cost of Becoming a Calvinist

Of how it is, Calvinism is reaching into the non-reformed community and chosen by God. If you look at that book, he'll show you how it happens. It's a lot of arm-twisting. He fought it tooth and nail.

It seemed so off-base. Now, he only knew the Scripture up until that time. But he was converted or persuaded by a man named John Gerstner. Much smarter, much more articulate at that time. Now, we think of R .C. Sproul as a brilliant man, and he is.

But he was a young, brilliant man. And even brilliant young people often don't know a whole lot. They just haven't lived long enough to know very much. And so he was hoodwinked and overpowered intellectually by John Gerstner.

And he explains this. He says it wasn't easy for him to become a Calvinist.

Now, we've all hopefully read the same material. And now you get an idea how George can claim to be an expert in Calvinism. And yet his conclusions are just so utterly disconnected and self-contradictory and shallow and stuff.

If he can read just the basic stuff about the struggles that Sproul had to get over what Sproul would identify as the traditions, the human traditions that were in the way of divine truths, and how the natural man is opposed to the things of the Spirit of God.

If he can read that stuff and say that basically Gerstner hoodwinked him, I mean this sounds very much like the description of the process of getting into a cult, a mind-control cult type thing. If he can read that stuff and not get that point, then that's why he can read everything else and not get what it's saying either.

Okay, so since when I became a Calvinist and I am struggling with John 6, I am struggling with Romans 9, I'm losing sleep at night.

You were struggling with a lot of things. In fact, you were struggling with everything about Calvinism.

Well, yeah, I objected to four out of five points and there was absolutely no reason for me to believe the fifth point, based on what I also believed. I seem to recall that. So I'm struggling with these things and that's arm-twisting.

Somebody was twisting my arm. Who would that be?

God? Okay, but he said Gerstner, so who was beating you over the head with these things?

Well, you weren't. You just put them in front of me and said, here, have you ever looked at that?

No, according to George, I was the one who hoodwinked you. Who hoodwinked me? Yes. Oh, okay. Because if you struggle with anything...

So I should have gone back to ignoring John 6 and Romans 9. Yes. And not actually dealing with what those...

That's theology. Stick with the Bible.

So in his vernacular, I was a Biblicist before when I was ignoring major passages, teaching passages in Scripture. There you go. Okay, I got it. Okay, just wanted to make sure...

Well, good. Now I'm glad that... Now you may have helped some other people figure that out. Because it just didn't seem right.

And John Feinberg also uses the term. He says Calvinism is counterintuitive. It's just, when you're first exposed to it, you go, ooh, man, that just doesn't seem to fit what I know from Scripture.

Isn't there a text somewhere in Isaiah somewhere about God's ways being above our ways? And isn't there something about the foolishness of God and the wisdom of men?

Oh, that's theology again. Even an unbeliever can hear about Calvinism the first time. And go, that just... That doesn't seem right.

Oh, yeah. And every unbeliever says that Arminianism is right right off the bat. Yeah. Think about it for a second. Adam Jechter in Romans 9 is going, yeah, go George!

Something about the natural man and the things of God come to mind here? Somewhere, but that's theology again.

And sometimes that intuitive reaction is the right reaction. But, again, with some clever maneuvering and working on the ego... Ego! And presenting Calvinism as the deeper things of God.

Here we come across something. I was listening to this yesterday while I was riding. And sitting here, thankfully I didn't go off the path and into the canal or anything. But I was listening to this, and I'm sitting here listening to this whole big, long thing about ego.

And I'm going, you know, the most ego-smashing, pride-destroying thing I can think of is that it wasn't me that got myself saved. I mean, it's his free will perspective where he's better than somebody else.

He's the one who believed and somebody else didn't. And that's what is, I would argue, a basis for pride. Is I can look at somebody else and go, hey, you know, God tried equally to it. I made it, he didn't.

It's all because of me. I mean, that's the whole essence of what we're talking about here. And so to hear him talking about pride and that you're presenting it to stroke somebody's ego. I just want to go, you have got to be kidding me.

Hello? You've got to turn those system sounds off. The thing is, when I went through those struggles, I reacted to this information so upset. I was angry. And it was, I look back and I go, you know, it was this, how dare you say I can't X.

How dare you say that I didn't do that. And no, those aren't works. Those aren't for me, but how dare you say that I couldn't do them. That was my whole reaction to the system and the whole thing. It was very prideful.

It was arrogant on my part. I mean, my pride was getting crushed by John 6 and Romans 9 primarily. And other pieces of information from scriptures came in. But I guess I was being a good biblicist by defending my pride.

A good biblicist. I watched him work just like this.

You, I don't think you're ready for the deeper things. Especially, tell that to a young person. I think this is a little bit over your head. I want you to, you know, just stay with, you know, the study of scripture.

You know, drink the milk. You're not ready for meat yet. You know, there's different ways of saying it. And so they just, I can handle that. I can handle that. And so then they open up to it. And they get due by it.

But the most important thing that I can do for you is just real quickly. As you guys may know, writing the worlds, when my book is published, it will be one of the oldest books out.

Now, of course, he's talking about the book that he brought into the studio. I'll never forget this. He brings the dark side of Calvinism into the studio. And it is a velo-bound Kinko's special. Okay?

I mean, it's eight and a half by 11, photocopied, not spiral-bound, but velo-bound on the side. And I remember he slides a copy of it to Hank. And Hank just sort of looks at it. Because, see, they're making an offer available where you get both books.

And, of course, my book is called The Potter's Freedom. And it's published and has been out and has all these endorsements on it and blah, blah, blah. And he's dragging in and only has a few with him because they're not going to have the rest of them ready.

He's dragging in a Kinko's special velo-bound dark side of Calvinism. And, of course, this is the same book, folks, where we had let me see here. Let's see if this is no. Let me try this. MP3. Read my book.

Yeah, there you go. That's one of our channel sounds is from the Bible Answer Man broadcast debate where you have I'm challenging George on John 6, and he's got nothing. He just he ain't got nothing.

And so what does he do? He says Read my book. And so we're all waiting. How long did it take? I think it was at least late January into February before I finally got a copy of the book, and that program was in middle of December.

And so I waited for a long time to Read my book. Read his book, and I wanted to see the response that it provided for the stuff on John 6 because I had to trust that if I would Read my book. that it would answer these particular questions.

And so when I got the book, of course, I did what I was told to do. Read my book. And I read the book, and there was nothing on John 6. There was no exegesis at all. The questions that I had asked weren't answered, even when I had Read my book.

Read his book. And so I was very disappointed, and this is the book that he's talking about, and this is the book that he's recommending to his audience. Read my book. And so that's what we're talking about at this particular point in time.

I have seven years I've wasted my life on this stupid thing.

Seven, seven, seven years, seven that's a long time to wait to Read my book.

That is a really long time.

They're laughing, too. I have a book called The Dark Side of Calvinism. It's subtitled The Calvinist Caste System, The Reformed Doctrine of Redemption and Reprobation. And when I CRI has asked me to come on and do a debate with Me.

James White. Thank you. On the radio when I've completed this book, because they want to promo his book and promo my book at the same time. So they wrote James White, and they said, You know, George Bryson has a new book out called The Dark Side of Calvinism.

And he goes, Ooh, should I wear my Darth Vader outfit? And my response to them was, I thought he already was. But I'm not going to repeat that because it's not nice.

Yeah, well, when you say it in front of a microphone, it gets repeated anyway. Yeah, yeah, Hank did call it a caste system just a few weeks ago, and I imagine that's probably where he got the terminology, too.

So the attitude, the mindset, I cannot begin to understand it. I cannot begin to understand it. There's George saying, Give me an opportunity, and I'll poison people's minds. Not that I'll disprove it.

Not that I'll be able to answer its exegesis. I can poison people's mind to it so they'll never give it a second thought. That is not how Christians approach the matter of truth. We'll continue with the Jerry Vines sermon, but we need to take a break.

We'll be right back right after this.

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Read my book! Well, if we have to, we will do so. At least we do that. We read other people's books, but it's sort of hard to get them to read ours in a fair way. Well, anyway, didn't expect to spend the entire first half hour on that, but that sometimes happens.

And we move back to the Jerry Vine sermon delivered at Woodstock back in October now, early October, in Seeking. Remember, this is a part of, what was the series on? Let's see, Drunks and Charismatics and Liberals and something along those lines.

I don't know. There's quite the interesting group of people there. But we were talking about the text that Dr. Vines threw out on particular redemption, and I had closed by starting to preach a little bit on the subject of Galatians 2 .20 and the issue of particular redemption.

So let's pick up where we left off.

Particular Redemption and the Scope of Christ's Death

Now let's just use an illustration here for a moment. I love Pastor Johnny. I love Miss Janet. I've just made that statement. I love Pastor Johnny, comma, I love Miss Janet, period. Now what does that mean?

Does that mean I don't love his children? Does that mean I don't love his grandchildren? Not at all. It just means I have said I love him, I love his wife. But if you ask me, I'd say, well, of course I love his children.

Of course I love his grandchildren. You do not restrict the love of God simply because the language at some specific point in Scripture doesn't make it all encompassing. For instance, let's just look at some of the Scriptures.

John 1 .29, Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world. Hebrews 2 .9, that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.