Christian Speaks the Truth in Love to a Roman Catholic

But the actual Bible contains the first testimony, the New Testament, and all the

New Testaments. Yeah. They're mostly what Paul wrote in prison, as the Gospels, all the letters to the previous Gospels.

And those are what are considered to have to be apostles. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wouldn't consider that the Gospels, though.

I would just consider that the New Testament, which includes the Gospels. But it would be more like the readings from St. Paul. Okay, so...

Or like my interpretation. Yeah, yeah. Like, I was Catholic before, but... So, and it'll be interesting to hear what you have to say.

But, like, my interpretation is the Good News. Yeah. Basically, Jesus died for our sins. Yeah.

And, you know, that we, basically, if we make Him our Lord and Savior, and turn our life over to Him, that we'll be saved in the end.

Yeah. That's what I was going to say. I'm just saying that's, like, that's kind of... It's a different philosophy,

I guess. Yeah. I'm just being more literal, which I'm not... Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's just the way the church service is divided for us.

We always read from the Old Testament, the New Testament, and then the Gospels. But the Gospels... Oh, okay, okay. ...include the four books. Gotcha, gotcha. Okay. So, that's why

I kind of... I didn't know that. No, that's good. I'm learning something. Yeah, that's why I wasn't sure what you were asking me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, because I know the

Jewish Torah is the five books of the Old Testament. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I guess that's why I was thinking more literally when you were saying that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And what would you say? So, I would say, like, much similar to exactly what you said, like, you know, the

Gospels for all men. All men are sinners. We all know that we're sinners before a holy God. And that because we're sinners, we are due

God's judgment. But, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. And that through faith in Him, as Ephesians says, you know, by grace are you saved, through faith.

And that is not of works, lest any man should boast, is, you know, by grace alone. It's a gift of God.

It's a gift of God. And if you add any one work to that, then Christ is of no value to you. That's what

Galatians says. Like, they say, in the book of Galatians, you had Judaizers who were coming and saying, yes, you have to trust in Jesus to be saved.

But, you have to be circumcised and become a Jew first. Yeah, I know. Yeah, so, they were, and what

Paul says to that is, Christ wiped out all of that. Yeah, if you've, if you've added one work of the law,

Christ is of no value to you. So, the Catholics see it differently. They see it that the state, the relationship with Christ, it's about Christ.

He came down, He wiped out, through the end, the two commandments of love

God with all your heart, soul, mind, blood, and spirit. You saw it, right? Yeah. But they see it as, if you really love

Christ, and you obey those two commandments, you will want to do good works. Absolutely. You'll want to obey

God's law, and you will become holy. It's not doing good works without a reason. It's having that faith that makes you love

Christ so much that you want to be that way. So, you still do those things. Yeah, I agree with that.

Yeah. I absolutely agree, because that comes from, you know, your love and your faith. It's just like when you love someone, you want to do, you want to obey them and do something.

And what are you going to lay down your life for? Exactly. Lay down your life for a friend, but laying down your life doesn't necessarily mean you have to die for someone, because we all lay down our life for something, right?

Are you laying down your life as a slave to your work? Yeah, are you picking up your cross and carrying it daily? Right. It's all in addition to your heart.

I think that's it, right? Yeah. To your heart, like, so... We're here to serve others. Yeah, exactly.

So, whether it's Catholic, or non -denominational, or Protestant, but, you know, the idea that we all have our different rituals, if you will, but it all boils down to your heart and your relationship.

You know, it's... It's right. Yeah, so... People think that. Different churches don't think that. Well, and see, like, with the

Mormon Church, it is a little different. I've talked with a couple of different people tonight. Yeah, like, Protestant, Catholic? Yeah.

And I think... Exactly. Well, and they believe that Jesus was a

God. Right. So, it's very, very different. They don't have a Trinitarian God. They have an infinite regression and progression of gods.

Like, they believe very different things about who God is. And that's... It's just unusual, because they call themselves

Christian. They say, they sing Christ, and I do... Yeah, that's interesting. I just...

I learned a little bit about that energy from a boyfriend who was a Mormon, and he raised me from a Protestant Mormon, because he had his issues with the church, but he showed me all of the videos, he taught me a lot about the religion, and it's just not something that I personally can do.

Yeah. I just have some problems with a lot of it. Yeah. But I feel like it's interesting you say that, because it's interesting, because a lot of people think you're

Catholic, so you're not Christian. What are you talking about? Yeah, that's... Catholicism was the original

Christian Roman Christian church. I mean, the Romans threw the Christians to the lions, until the faith of the

Christians converted the Romans to the Roman Christian Catholic... Have you ever read... Have you ever read

Fox's Book of Martyrs? No. Oh, my word. I would highly recommend it. It is an amazing picture of the faith of the early church.

And it is... It's hard to read. Like, it's very, very hard to read, because it's going through gruesome testimonies of what happened to them, but their faith in the midst of it is amazing.

It's really amazing what some people do. Yeah. I mean, you read more and more, and I've been... I was telling Noreen, I've been getting into... It's interesting, because there's a huge school...

This is my wife, Justin. Hi, nice to meet you. They're from San Diego. Hi. That's so cool. What a small world.

I know. Do you live here now, or are you just visiting? We're just visiting. We're stationed in the Navy, and we're visiting for a conference. Wow, that's so cool.

Yeah. How do you like Utah? Well, I... It's only been this week. We only arrived Monday. Okay. But I mean, obviously, it's beautiful.

The scenery's beautiful. And the people are so friendly, too. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, this is your...

I haven't been up here, but I've been to Utah several times, and my family lives in Colorado, so... Oh, okay. Colorado's beautiful, too.

Yeah. We went to Texas, and we're like, wow, we missed the mountains. Then we came here, and we're like, wow, we never knew what mountains were.

Yeah. Yeah. We lived in, like, Lake Marina for a while. But not like this, yeah. Where?

In Lake Marina for a while, like, out past... Past Pine Valley. Oh! Yeah. Yeah, way out there.

But even in a clear day, coming down the 8, you could look and see all the way to Point Loma, and see the ocean. When we were in Texas, I said, oh, my goodness, it hit me for the first time that when

I look west, there's still nothing but land. Yeah. I can't see ocean. Yeah, exactly.

It's so crazy. Yeah, so, I mean... Sorry. Our fear for the Latter -day Saint, our

Latter -day Saint neighbors, is that they're going to hear those words out of Matthew chapter 7. You know, Matthew... In Matthew 7,

Jesus is standing at the Day of Judgment, and people come to Him and say, Lord, Lord, didn't I do this in Your name?

Didn't I do that in Your name? Didn't I do this for You? Didn't I do that for You? And He says, depart from Me, for I never knew You. Right.

Relationship. Yeah, it's... And who Christ is. Because we would all say, you know, as non -denominational

Reformed Baptists and a Catholic, we would all say that God exists eternally in three persons, the

Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Right, the Trinity. The Trinity. Which is usually a very Catholic thing, but I know that there are

Protestants that acknowledge it. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Nicene definition of the

Trinity, 100%. You know, we just went to Trinity Sunday. Yeah? And the priest said that...

I love this priest. He's the first Catholic priest that I was really able to relate to and we have a great relationship. And he, Father Mike, and he told me that he was given this sermon.

I've never heard it described this way. He said that the Trinity is a mystery that no one can comprehend, right? Yeah. In our own human brains.

Yeah, it's beyond us, for sure. But it's really just love is what it's all about, right? Because if you think about it, God gave

His Son to us, right? Yeah. So He's the Father and, you know, parents and their children and that's the ultimate love, right?

And His Son, sat and went through this horrific death. And then the Holy Spirit came out of that person and did all of that love.

That's what He did. It's just a complete representation of love and God. And I never thought about it that way. The three persons in one, but it's really all love and it really is just all of God.

There's a... It's incredible love. There's an amazing... There's an amazing sermon by the...

So we're Apologia Church, Utah, which we were sent by Apologia Church in Arizona.

And one of the pastors down there is Dr. James White. And he does a sermon called

Trinitarian Harmony in the Atonement. And he talks about how God chose a people for Himself.

Christ died for them. And the Holy Spirit works to bring faith in them to where Jesus will not fail to save even one whom

He died for. That's why we have this sacraments and one of those confirmations. That's when you pick a saint and you receive the gifts of the

Holy Spirit. But it's all about those gifts of the Holy Spirit. Wisdom, right judgment, right care, right memory, wrong knowledge, understanding.

And they really emphasize that. And the Spirit co -spirits in you on Pentecost Sunday came down to be able so you could keep that faith.

Just what you just said. The Holy Spirit has to indulge you. If you don't have the Spirit of God in you, you can't maintain a

Christian life. There's no way. I have a question for you then. Because this has been something in my journey of faith right now.

I've been really exploring the Eucharist. And they're really figuring out the Catholic Church. So many people are leaving, as my friend did.

And the difference between... A big, huge difference. Between Elizabeth and Mary Scott's body of water, right?

It's the issue with the Eucharist. So how do you feel about that? I believe that there is something spiritual happening there. But I don't believe in the doctrine of transubstantiation where the body, or where the bread and the wine physically actually become the body and the blood.

But I do believe that spiritually Christ is present. And that He is ministering to His saints through the sacrament.

We would call it a sacrament as well. We call it a sacrament. We call baptism a sacrament.

We have two sacraments. Baptism and Communion. You call it the Eucharist. I call it

Communion. But yeah. We call it the Communion. We call it the

Lord's Table. We call it the Lord's Supper. Yeah. It's just fascinating though.

Because I'm throwing it as issues of fairness to trauma, right? But I didn't study theology.

I didn't go to Catholic College. And a lot of my friends did. And I've learned so much from them. Because Catholics were never really in the Bible. And I've been going and learning so much from my friends.

And I've been putting into this the whole Eucharist idea and all the Eucharistic miracles where the body and blood actually turn into the heart and also on the altar.

And the scientists haven't been able to debuke it. And it's happened so many times. But it's in the Bible? It's in the Bible? Yeah.

And that's where it comes down to. And this is what's so interesting. Because it's that debate over.

I mean, Christ says, this is my body. And so the Catholics say, what's the problem? It's so obvious. It's so obvious. It's right there.

This is my body. It wasn't a parable. It was an exact statement. This is it.

So it's really an interesting... You really think about it. You can wrap your head around it for a really long time. And I've been doing that lately.

Because it is the fundamental difference between Catholics and the rest of the Christian world. When you come down to it, all the rest of this stuff is kind of philosophy.

We're not that different. That's the fundamental difference. The Eucharist is one. And then, like...

So my difficulty with the Catholic Church is the necessity of things like doing penance and confessing before a priest and doing things like that.

There's a lot of rules, a lot of practices. People get confused. You get caught up in the talk.

My fear is that Catholics could be hoping in those works rather than hoping in Christ. You know what

I mean? No, I think more Catholics get so confused by it because they don't understand and they get turned off for the reason you are.

And, you know, I've been... Like I said, I went to... I had a couple Baptist boyfriends and one good boyfriend.

And I went to a lot of different services. And I thought a lot about all of that. And I learned a lot about faith from my

Protestant friends because the Catholics were so much more ritual oriented. I think for a while they kind of forgot about the faith. It was really cool.

And then after Vatican II, I think they started to realize, hey, wait a minute. The Protestants have something going on here. We are not embracing enough and it's turning people off.

And so they become a lot more open to the idea of faith. But the more I learned about it, the more

I started to understand a lot of those rituals or dogma that I was confused over or I didn't even understand.

Or I could see why my friends, especially people that went to Catholic schools and got beat into them, why it is feeling like you're just practicing and you don't know why.

You know? But when the Catholics... My father might help me so much when I was telling Noreen. This is what he said.

He goes, of course you don't need a priest. You can confess your sins right to God. I do it all the time, right? And I hadn't gone to confession in 12 years.

But I went to this same... The first time I met my father, my... And he was talking and he said... And he's an intellectual.

He's the kind of a challenged Vatican. You know, some of these Catholic teachings, he's like, I don't know why we still teach that. But he was saying that there's a psychological and psychological studies between Christians, other

Christians, and Catholics. They have found, and I guess their studies, PhDs, whatever, in theology, that because Catholics actually go to church and do the physical act and sit in front of a priest and confess their sins, when they do the research, they found that they generally feel more like they truly are completely relieved of all of their sins.

Oh, I believe that, honestly, because... Because of the human need, right? To confess, yeah.

But how do you confess to talk to somebody? If you keep your sin in the dark, it's going to eat you. Yeah, right. You can't put your sin to death if you're just hiding it and keeping it secret.

You know what? I had not gone to confession in 12 years, so I went back to Father Mike in California. They did face -to -face and I went and confessed some things.

And just having him, a Catholic priest with all this authority, tell me that it was okay and just that it was right and I was forgiven and I truly did feel forgiveness.

Yeah. I was like, thank you so much. My journey was a little different just on that note. Yeah. Yes, yours was totally different than mine, but I had seen

Father Mike at the Catholic church. Yeah. She goes to Shadow Mountain. Yeah. Shadow Mountain, yeah.

Pastor Jeremiah. Yeah. Your story was different because she felt unforgiveness for the

Catholic church. Oh, wow, okay. Yeah, because I went through a divorce. Oh, okay. I had talked to his husband so I know that Biblically speaking, yeah.

God hates divorce, but you know, He said there are certain situations where you're forgiven and I didn't feel forgiven.

Like when I went and talked to a priest at Catholic church it was like, you know, I won't point to everything he said, but it was enough to like,

I was so burdened with guilt. I just felt so much guilt that I couldn't, you know, and that's why, and then through, in my view, through like,

God put people in my way who brought me to Shadow Mountain. Okay. He put people in my path.

Yeah. He said, hey, come over here and that was how that... Pointed you to Christ and it was Him that's the forgiveness.

Yeah, it was like that over 20 years ago. But that's what, so for me... That's what you need. Yeah, exactly.

Maybe not forever, but maybe forever immediately. No, no, no, and that's why, and then, you know, again, all my family's pretty

Catholic. I said, I'll go to Catholic Mass. You know what I mean? I love, I just, I have my perspective on my personal relationship.

Yeah. It's transformational for me. So, can I ask a question? Sure. Like, I've heard, so that same pastor that I was telling you about who did the really good sermon on the atonement, he debates, he's done like over 200 moderated debates and he's done a few with, well, he's done a lot with Roman Catholics and Muslims, but he mentions how the

Mass is kind of like a representation of the death of Christ. Is that, like, how do you understand what the

Mass is? You know what? You're pretty right on that. It is, it's a celebration every single time, but that's basically, it revolves completely around the

Eucharist. It's all about the Last Supper. We celebrate that every time and actually, that's the important part of the

Mass and in the old days when people were illiterate and the priest would be standing up with his back to them, they would ring a bell so people would pay attention at the transubstantiation part.

Okay. But they go through at the Last Supper, Christ said, and they quote out of the Bible, he's out of a tape and he, this is my body which will be given up for you and then this is the blood of life and through an everlasting covenant forgive all men since I've sinned and now

I can't ever remember. They say it every week in church and I can't remember but the priest says this and they ring the bell and I don't know, there's a lot of different viewpoints

I was reading on some of the different churches. Some people believe it turns into blood in the body, some believe it's still in the physical form and I don't regret it one because it obviously is except for those miracles but I've never seen the miracles but for some people believe it's more spiritual or whatever but there's a really holy spiritual thing that's occurring right there and that massive, the constant, it's the celebration of that, that's the whole crux, the whole reason we go.

In fact, I have this really great, I read this, Matthew Kelly, really great Catholic author and that's one of the things he says, he goes, you go to church and kids are whining, you feel like crap, you can't pay attention, you don't feel spiritually there that day and every time it comes to that point on the

Eucharist, that's the whole reason we go to receive the Eucharist like the Holy Spirit to help us be able to carry on to give us that strength because Christ is inside of you, in you and it's sort of like the verse on the

Bible that, and I'm totally repeating it, it's the bread of life, if you don't take Jesus' bread you will not have life within you and the

Catholics really take, it's funny because so much is in parable but they take that, and I ask

Father Mike a bunch about it and I'm like, but he's not speaking in parable, this is my body and that's what the

Catholic Church, that's the whole free of the mass, it's the celebration of that and the Catholics have Christ on the cross and everyone says it's so morbid but it's to remind you of the suffering and what he went through for us, it connects us to him and the blood and the body of Christ in the mass is why we're there, it's the whole reason we go, otherwise you could watch it on TV, otherwise you could listen and I love going to Bible churches for the sermons, they're great.

I don't think that's a substitute for actually worshipping in a congregation though. But it's not, because the other thing is any time two people are gathered in his name you have

Christ and you need to have the praise and definitely the praise is much more emphasized on the

Protestant side than the Catholic, we do it, but it's got a different passion behind it, the Catholics are not as passionate and let's admit it, they're not, you go there and you're saying

Gloria, Hallelujah, but it's not like... But there's variance also within Protestants as well, lots of, yeah.

It does, but I'm not trying to be passionate, but this was my Lenten project, this is why we're here though, this is good.

Yeah, we love these conversations. I got so into it and I'm like, wow, I've been to lots of churches and churches are gorgeous and I appreciate so many things that my

Protestant friends taught me there and you can always, when you're gathered with Christ, Bible studies, you feel like you're with Christ, there was always something about the

Catholic church that was different and I always felt like I was in the presence of Christ and I couldn't put people and I thought, I was just raised

Catholic so I'm comfortable here and then I was doing Bible study in Virginia and I was in my 40s,

I did not know all this and one of my friends, she was in her 20s and she studied Catholic theology and she said, well you feel that way because you are and I go, what do you mean?

She said, because there's always the consecrated Eucharist in the Catholic church and that is Christ's actual body so you are in front of Jesus Christ when you're in a

Catholic church and she said, they tried to trick Pope John Paul II by taking the Eucharist out of the chapel, the main church area at the

Vatican and putting it in a separate room and he knew where it was. He was so in tune with God, he was walking down the hall and he turned and said, why have you moved

Christ? And he went to the room where he was and they were blown away and they were like, my God, maybe this is true. It just blows people away and you can say, oh it's just faith and Pope John Paul II just has it really intense.

I don't know, but I started thinking about it and I was telling her, we have a Buddhist, he's kind of a Buddhist, he was raised

Christian but he really practices Buddhism and we were talking about it and he said, you know Donna, there's something about that church in San Diego in Old Town that I used to go there all the time when

I was upset because I felt like Christ was there for some reason. He's like, hmm, the Catholics might be on to something.

Maybe Christ is really in the Catholic church and so I'm not going to sit here and say yes or no, right, but I really,

I believe it. I really do and the more and more I study, I'm like, Christ is in the Catholic church. Not that he's not there with everyone in the

Bible study churches which I really get a lot out of this too. In any church, you go to a tour guide and there's nothing, there's always a spirit like you said in the communion with others and sharing but there's just something like that physical presence and I look so differently at the

Eucharist now and I'm 54 and I had never looked at, I go to church and I think about it. I believe this was my first and last and holy mass.

This is my chance to have God really with here strengthening me and I look at it so differently now. See, the reason

I struggle with that is because in the book of Acts we see, I think it's in the book of Acts and then also in Matthew chapter 28

Jesus says, all authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples in my name and then he ascends into heaven bodily.

Right. So he takes, he goes into heaven and then in the book of Hebrews it talks about how

Christ is, he ever lives to make intercession for us before the Father. So Christ is interceding for us bodily in heaven and before God the

Father in the throne, in the heavenly throne room the heavenly holy of holies. So I don't think that he bodily has to be here.

I think he indwells us by his spirit and so I think he's in every believer all the time.

Right. So that's where I see the presence of Christ physically in each believer. I totally understand that because I completely feel that and that's the

Holy Spirit conversation. We totally agree on that. And I am not one of these people like you were saying you get so caught up in the dogma.

I never understood the Christ and Calvin issues. What's the big deal? We all believe in the same thing in heart. And obviously you can never have the

Eucharist or even go into hell because you weren't able to have it or you didn't know about it. I don't believe that. I mean

God's ways aren't our ways. We don't have God's ways. Well the thief on the cross wasn't able to take him in. He wasn't able to be baptized.

He wasn't able to take him in. What saved him was his faith in Christ and the grace that comes through Christ's death and resurrection.

He looked to Christ and said remember me when you come into your kingdom and he said you'll be with me today in paradise. So we would agree with you on that.

I don't believe that. I would never say that you didn't do this so you're not going to go to heaven. I have real problems with that.

And that's the thing that so many, sometimes Catholics that are coming to the church when they're taught that dogma and dogma it's like I believe everything the

Catholic church teaches is that we all go to heaven and if you don't you're in trouble and I'm like whoa. You got a lot to learn because I don't believe that beast out there.

I mean, why would you? You've got the whole world. I think that there's some very key things that we have to believe and that's in the triune

God who's revealed himself in the word and that we're worthy of his wrath and it's only by Christ that we can be saved.

Those are the, and then hope in his work alone. Hope in the work that Christ has done and you'll be saved.

That's what you were saying about the works versus faith talk. That's what brings all Christians together and I had the opportunity to do the most amazing thing on Good Friday a year ago to pretty much do the

Stations of the Cross. Very similar liturgy I think, right? You guys don't really have the Stations of the Cross in the

Baptist church. I don't even know what it is. I was waiting to hear what you had to say about it. So this is, you guys love this.

I love this. So we got all the churches of Coronado. So we started at the Baptist church then we went to the

Lutheran church then the Catholic church then the Presbyterian church the Episcopalian church and we ended at the

Bible church. Wow. And we did the Walk of the Cross which is a phenomenal Catholic and Lutheran thing to do, right?

And so what it is is it goes over on Good Friday the three days of Easter and we do the whole

Mass and the whole Supper then we do the whole Passion of Christ dying on the cross and the Stations of the Cross in the

Catholic church start with when he was condemned to death by Pilate and then there's fourteen Stations and I didn't grow up going every

Friday I can't tell you I don't want to say I'm not a good Catholic but I'm not I don't know all of them off the top of my head but he falls three times

I believe because he falls the first time he meets his father Oh like it's the walk through the stories in the Gospel Simon is the best person to helping him and the

Catholics used to do it every Friday now we do it the Fridays in line and you can go and go through the Stations and each one has a story like God fell under the weight of his cross we're all asked to carry our cross what does this mean to us?

Simon helped him with his cross the women wiped his face and he said even though it was an act of mercy he was like don't worry for me worry for yourself and your kids he goes all through it and he dies we're going to have loss and they put him in the tomb and that's where it ends on Good Friday and it's very somber and it's a very intense really somber service and then we do the

Stations of the Cross so all the Christians were just being reported on so amazing so they had a big huge the

Presbyterians set it up that year they made a huge cross we walked through the churches and did a different Stations of the

Cross at each church and it was so great to see all the Christians on Good Friday with everything just celebrating

Christ's that sounds like a really powerful thing to experience yeah I told Fr. Mecham I want to organize this next year

I've got so many ideas to how to make this and the different churches were singing the same the Presbyterians were singing the same chant that we sing in the

Christian church it's like we were there when they crucified my God and Jesus remember me when you come into your kingdom we sing that it's a big

Good Friday thing they were singing it and then the Bible Church ended up with great DVDs that display because you know they're very musical churches and it was just I just sat there like this is so awesome and then

I was listening to the podcast of my Catholic one of my Catholic priests and he was doing a sermon right then on how we're all like one and beautiful and I was just like it was

I'm not going to cry but it was so powerful it was the most amazing thing I'd ever seen I mean the Baptists were in there the

Presbyterians everyone just wanted to walk with his cross and celebrate Christ's passion and death for us and it was just that's how it should be right?

it's not a division it's everything I mean if Christ's death on the cross and resurrection is everything to you

I mean that's what it is right? like yeah that's where our hope has to lie if our hope is in anything else then it's he who believes in me even though he dies will live again exactly if we're hoping in anything else it's a futile hope it has to be in Christ alone totally so I don't mean to start crying but I was just no no it's been

I think getting more and more strong in my faith because I was Catholic I got like away from everyone where the Protestants I was back and forth and then

I had an experience which really drew me back to the Catholic Church on Holy Thursday and I realized there's certain things in the Catholic Church that I don't want to leave they just mean too much to me but and one is the

Eucharist and that was one of the things that drew me back on Holy Thursday and we do the watch we sit up all night with the

Eucharist and the Garden of Gethsemane and pray and you can stay all night if you want you know

I would sit there for hours and the Catholic Church actually does it on a weekly basis you can go and sit with God and he goes for an hour

I can really appreciate the reflection the heavy reflection because I think so before we were here in Utah at least for me which we went

I met him when I was 12 so oh wow we've known most of the churches we've gone to we've gone to together but until we were that old we didn't go to the same church but that's so awesome you guys there was like communion once a quarter or once a month yeah and it felt very casual and not as like it wasn't serious it was just a okay it's communion

Sunday and we would take communion almost kind of as a it's just part of the routine yeah this is the one week a month that we're going to do it and our church here in South Jordan it's been a big shift for me

I think for both of us because it has a very intentional liturgy we do communion every week and it is like a heavy somber but joyful experience yeah and and it's a beautiful thing to dwell on that isn't it?

it is yeah and so I can understand your appreciation for that and that's the they're kind of Matthew Kelly is this really great author, speaker he's really concerned because he said we're getting away from that even in the

Catholic church Catholics are just it's the Eucharist like do you realize this amazing gift you have and we really need to get back to appreciating what this really means you know

God gave his body for us it's the bread of life we eat this I can't believe I'm getting all passionate into this

I'm not an evangelist or anything like that I don't do what you guys do or anything but I love these conversations but I still think it's so great that you appreciate it like that because a lot of Protestants are more like it's almost too much on the praise side of like we're going to feel we want to have an encounter with Jesus yeah our goal is to have an encounter with Jesus in the worship in song not necessarily in like our desire is to be in God's presence throughout our worship service like all that we do in the service is meant to be done in worship and so like our service starts we do announcements and then like right after announcements one of the deacons will come up and read from like an old

Puritan prayer book and so we read a two songs one song or two songs one one song and then we do a catechism yeah one song and then we do a catechism question and then we do we will read from the psalms

I think I remember that for the baptism service yeah so we'll do the catechism and then one more song one more song no catechism and then a corporate time of prayer where the pastor prays over the congregation and we enter into prayer with him and then and we do that on our knees and then we stand up and read through the psalm and we stand for the reading of the word either a psalm or a passage that's relevant to the sermon that's going to be preached and then we have one more song and then we hear from the word we hear the sermon and then we do if there's any baptisms they'll do two baptisms and then we do the

Lord's Supper communion and then and we partake of that as a as one congregation coming up to the front together to get so it's not like a just me and Jesus thing it's a we're doing this as a congregation in worship of God in remembrance of his body that was broken for us and his blood that was poured out for us and then at the end of service we have two more songs to finish us out and then at the end of every service we sing the doxology praise

God from whom all blessings flow she sings better than I do come on yeah it's praise

God from whom all blessings flow praise him all creatures hear me love praise him above ye heavenly hosts and then praise

Father Son and Holy Ghost yeah the same idea the Catholics do that at the beginning of the service for the glory and the praise in God we adore you we love you we praise you so we do that right at the end and then the preaching pastor from that week will pronounce a blessing over the church in the form of a benediction usually found through one of the end of the

Catholic church same thing the last thing they do it's a very similar we want our entire service like our goal so like in reform circles there's a thing called the regulative principle of worship and it's we desire our worship to be outlined by God's word like we want to see in Scripture why we should do everything we're doing in our worship service in the

Bible yes the Catholic one I will too not just because that's what people want to hear or it feels good or it's good we want everything that we're doing in our worship of God to be grounded in Scripture because he's told us how he wants to be worshipped so a lot of the conference meetings they feel like they're being ostracized for but it's not that at all because the

Catholics take it so seriously oh yeah my grandmother was

Catholic and you know when he said we went and did her funeral mass and in the mass he said any

Roman Catholics in good standing are welcome to the table and I was like okay but that's not me and that's okay like I recognize

I'm being you know excluded from the table there and I'm okay with that like do you guys have different beliefs about what the

Eucharist is than I do and you know that's fine with me it didn't offend me there's so many

I started reading about it too all the different churches and a lot of their beliefs toward the Eucharist and it's just really amazing it's pretty fascinating no it's really great when you're saying that to hear that it's been a while since I've been to a

Baptist service but because I remember one of my Protestant friends saying you've got to bring your Bible if it's not in that Bible you'll listen to that preacher now the

Catholic Church has the authority of the Pope coming down that they do everything exactly the same in any church in the world which is another thing

I love so you can't have a priest stray from it now they can because there's bad priests of course people everywhere and of course the

Catholic Church has had its scandals and its share of problems throughout the centuries especially when they pressed people into being priests they didn't want to oh wow

I have a question I feel like I'm just going to take this hard left turn but I'm really curious I don't really know anybody in my life personally who is active in Catholicism so I'm curious

I heard recently that the Pope had said that men are inherently good and that there are some that are bad and I guess

I'm wondering is that like a traditional Catholic doctrine that like yeah we're all pretty much good but we sin because I get from our perspective we wouldn't believe that scripture actually says we're all not good not good right none is good so I don't know if that was like a new thing that he had just said or if maybe that's been there and I just happen to hear it or yeah no that's actually fascinating I didn't know he said that I get choked around I'm not up on everything it's funny it's so funny that you say that I don't know where this came from in my whole entire life

I believe that men are inherently good at heart and I don't know if that came from Catholic teachings I don't know where it came from but I do believe that now does it have to just outwardly totally profess that I don't know

I guess I don't know if I was ever directly told that because we believe in original sin we believe in the baptism we believe

Christ you have to have Christ to save your soul and you have to you know love your neighbor and forgiveness the

New Testament is reclaimed by the commandments and everything but what a hard concept for me to write about is always the world but like Harvey Michaels said there is a world in the world and Matthew Keller said there is a world in the world and in today's world people want to step over it everything is allowed everything is tolerant he's like that is not true it is dangerous to think that because there are people and I wonder if there are people who are truly in love

I don't know so can I I don't know just like the Ten Commandments right?

yeah so basically that's the mirror yeah for sure that's kind of I know it's the law but it was again we can't none of us ever that's

God's perfect law and there's no one no human that can basically be perfect other than like when

Jesus came down in the form of a man but the point is it's like that's kind of what you measure yourself against and so I mean so going back to everyone is inherently like not for it it's based on we cannot keep you know perfect laws we can't keep love the

Lord your God with all your heart mind and strength we all strive for that and we can't do that God forgives us through his grace that Jesus died on the cross and that's how again that's where you don't think evil

I'm out slashing throats or something we just can't you know it's missing it's missing God's perfect law you sound like the

Irish Catholic because Catholics are generally like you know bad bad bad Catholic guilt so to hear that can

I give you one thing to chew on with like just kind of as you're kind of processing you know whether man is inherently good or inherently bad can

I just give you one thing to process just from God's word yeah I'd like to hear that too so I don't the

Catholic church actually teaches on that I would probably here on this side is and I didn't mean to cut you off no no you're good

I was just getting there just think of just think of babies you know like the two year olds

I mean I'm just saying I think overall oh you know the angry screen comes really early yeah

I guess we believe that we're all created in God's image that we are but we're preaching these here to be evil and to have less and less and less to hear

God's word but we can always turn back and be forgiven oh yeah absolutely I guess

I have to believe all men who would be good at heart or why would God completely forgive so just so just to chew on for a minute so it says this is

Romans chapter 1 and starting in verse 18 it says for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all unguideliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness because that which is known about God is evident within them for God made it evident to them for since the creation of the world his invisible attributes both his eternal power and his divine nature have been clearly seen being understood through what has been made so that they are without excuse for even though they knew

God they did not glorify him as God or give thanks but they became futile in their thoughts and their foolish hearts were darkened professing to be wise they became fools and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible

God for an image in the likeness of corruptible man and of birds and four -footed animals and crawling creatures and then if you go into Romans chapter three it says for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and this is being justified as a gift by his grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus and if you go to Romans chapter four it talks about actually it's

Romans chapter five Romans chapter five talks about how through one man

Adam sin entered the world and through sin death came and then therefore death spread to all men because all sinned so it's like it's just by nature we're sinners like Adam so we're not good we will fail to keep

God's even the first commandment you can't love God it's not necessarily about what we see on the outside of what somebody displays as evil but truly what is in our heart and how much higher and holier is

God than us and so exactly so what looks like a white lie to us is a stain that can't be before him it is evil because he is perfection so if he is perfection even the slightest you know exactly so like by that standard by God's standards no one is good all men are sinners yeah

I can see that in here yeah what about a little baby that can't be baptized are they going to hell and father may say no we don't believe that I mean how can you condemn a child that's never done yeah well

I think there's a little bit of difference with a child like I guess we would say that oh you're talking about adults yeah yeah adults right because a lot of people don't believe in God and they don't believe in God and and they don't believe in God and they don't believe in God and they don't believe and they don't believe in God and they

God and they Lazarus is outside the gate, covered in sores, and he's a beggar, and the rich man is living his lavish lifestyle, well,

Lazarus dies and he goes to Abraham's bosom. He's relaxing in paradise. But clearly the rich man who's in Hades, so I would say that prior to the resurrection, the place of death,

Sheol in the Old Testament, Hades in the New Testament, it was one place that was segregated for the righteous and the wicked.

And the wicked went to the place where there was burning and fire and gnashing of teeth. He's saying, send

Lazarus to give me a drop of water on my tongue, or tell him to go to my brothers, please. And so, but then, yeah, but then you had your chance and then

I would go back to Romans one because he's shown himself to all of us and we're all without excuse.

We've all sinned against him. We know God as our creator. We can't help but to know him. And yet we reject him because we're sinful.

And then you go to Hebrews that says, you know, it is appointed for man to die once and then comes judgment.

So like there will be one day of judgment, like we're going to stand before God and he'll judge us. And if we're covered in Christ's righteousness, if we're pleading the blood of Christ for ourselves, then he's saying, cover me in your righteousness because I have nothing to bring to you,

God. I need Christ alone for my salvation. If we're clinging to that, then we're judged by Christ's righteousness.

He took our sin and he gave us his righteousness. And then we get to enter into God's presence forever and be resurrected and have eternity on the earth with him.

Whereas those who are, you know, who rejected God and rejected his Messiah in this life, they get cast into the lake of fire at that day.

Yeah, people who totally reject God. Yeah. And never recovered from that in this life. Yeah. I guess I gotta read the book of Revelations again because that's a place you would explain it, right?

Revelations isn't necessarily where I would go. I'd go to Hebrews. I'd go... So if you want to just kind of like...

Some people have... Yes and no. I would kind of have a...

So I believe a lot of the book of Revelation was fulfilled leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70

AD. But where I would go to understand how

God's working through the gospel is the book of Romans. What some people describe Romans as is

Paul's systematic exposition of what the gospel is. It's just Paul saying, this is the condition of man.

This is what God did. Here's everything you get because of what Jesus did. Not even here's what you need to do.

It's simply because of what Jesus did, here's everything that God's done on your behalf and here's all the reward that you get.

Now live your life according to... Yeah. But Romans is his explanation of the gospel.

Romans and Ephesians are amazing. I would highly recommend Romans and Ephesians.

Yeah, no, that's interesting. Because the more you learn the more questions you have and the more you don't understand but that's the point.

Maybe that's the point of purgatory because you constantly have to be forgiven over and over and over again. You constantly have to forgive each other.

And it's not a one -time thing, right? We're human. Maybe that's why God said to forgive seven times. Sending me,

D7 or whatever. Because it's hard to forgive just once. Sometimes when it's a real deep wound, you keep going back to it.

Who knows, right? Maybe that's purgatory. Well for me I struggle with purgatory at all because Jesus said to that sinner on the cross, today you're going to be with me.

He was completely forgiven and had no chance to forgive him. I understand that, yeah. So is that if you were to go right to heaven?

But then you have the Apostle Paul in the book of Philippians where he's talking about I don't know whether I should give up my life and die because it would be better and I would go be with Christ or if I should remain,

I think I should remain because it's better for me to be here to work on your behalf and to edify the church more.

So like when Paul's saying, you know, if I die, I'm with Christ. And then

Peter says that in him we've been given every spiritual blessing. So I don't think that there's,

I think Christ's work is, yeah, I think Christ's work is perfect on our behalf and that when we die, if we're trusting in that work, then there's no reason for any other further sanctification because...

Like it's a once and for all your sin. Yeah. Not that I accepted

Christ when I was 20 years old or whatever, done the right thing for three years or something and if I die in a car accident then maybe

Christ's sacrifice wasn't sufficient for those three years. Yeah. I don't believe that. Or even like if I did something really bad like, you know, because in the

Catholic church you have, you know, mortal and venial sins. If you commit venial sins, you confess and you can, you know, you can be forgiven of those.

But if you commit a mortal sin, then I think... You can be forgiven. You can? Okay. But you...

You're not supposed to take communion in a state of mortal sin. Okay. So if you've committed a mortal sin, do you lose...

I think the way I've heard it put, and I'm trying not to misrepresent. I'm trying to just...

It's like murder's a mortal sin and murders have been forgiven, right? Yeah. So I guess the way I understand it is when you commit a mortal sin, you've...

I can't remember how he put it. I'm blanking and I don't want to misrepresent. I'm not really good on the theology of the mortal and venial sins myself.

I don't know. Like a lot of this Catholic, some of this doctrine stuff I'm not sure how to talk about. I'm not knowledgeable enough.

I'd have to defer you to Father Murphy if he would have the answers. I'm like, I don't know. Thank you so much for kind of breaking that down for me.

It's really fun. No, but what you were saying was so interesting. And it's like we have... But this is what I've always believed. We have these same ideas.

We get it. And that's why I've always had so many problems with... I considered a lot of the little things that separate all the

Christians. What's the point? The Eucharist one, that one I've been really thinking more and more about, especially with learning more about the miracles and all the things.

Wow, I never knew this. They're happening in like 2006 in all different countries I'll visit. And they're always...

The exact same thing happens. I'm like, are you serious? And I want to go and actually see it myself. You know? I don't know.

It's just... Anything can be a hoax, right? You get to replicate a hoax for hundreds and hundreds of years and have the exact same thing in science.

Because you know the scientists are going to admire it. You wrote to the Bundy, right? I don't know. It's just... I need to read up on that because I haven't even heard of them.

I know. I didn't know about... I'm Catholic and I didn't even know about it until a couple of years ago. The Eucharist... What is the Eucharistic miracles?

What are you guys talking about? Because I've heard of like the stigmata and things like that or like appearances of Mary or things like that.

But I hadn't heard of like Eucharistic stuff. Yeah, like appearances of Mary and Fatima. I heard about that. I was like, what does that even mean? Now I'm getting more interested in that.

I'm kind of like... And the saints that don't corrupt. Their body stays completely intact. And they don't corrupt.

And they have them in their graves. And they're completely... Wow, are you kidding me? Like this happens? And just...

You wonder. Some people are so good they go right to heaven, right? And some... Then are there people that are so evil?

Because they completely rejected God and committed all these heinous acts and never asked for forgiveness. But that's the thing. You said if someone is so good, do they go straight to heaven?

But if they're... It's a concept of purgatory. In the context of purgatory. That question.

But it's all these questions. That's all. I'm not answering them rhetorically. Right. In the context of our questions and from this conversation.

Yeah. But I struggle with, you know, these questions because... Yeah. How long have you guys known each other?

Oh, so... A few years. A few years. We've worked together for a while. Gotcha. So you guys are both active

Navy? We're reservists. Okay, cool. But we work for the government. We have a million jobs. And then we're reservists.

We live in the same town. And we're both about the same age. We don't have families. We're like always hanging out together. That's awesome.

We're like sisters. That's sweet. That's a really sweet friendship to have. It's great because we like...

I mean, I have a lot of friends that are married. A lot of friends that are younger. Just in different places. We're kind of in the same place.

Yeah. So it's someone I relate to that understands you. For real. Right. For sure. What a gift.

Yeah. Thank you guys so much for stopping and talking. Thank you so much. You're so nice. And Noreen, right? Yes. And Donna.

Eric and Justine. Justine. Yeah, Eric and Justine. Eric and Justine. I have loved talking to you guys. Yeah, me too.

Thank you. I learned a lot. I learned something. I have not been to a Baptist church or...

God, it's been 20 years since I went out with my family. If y 'all are here through Sunday, you're welcome to join us. Yeah. Maybe tomorrow.

It's been so long since I really talked to a Baptist about what they believe. Yeah. Yeah. So it's kind of refreshing to talk to you guys.

Because churches change too. The Catholic church is changing. Yeah. They're not stupid. They know they have to get rid of some dumb things they did or some of the crap that happened.

You know, I don't want to say purify the church, but open up the word of praise. There's different things, you know, without losing what you feel, what you really believe in the teachings.

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure the Baptist church is going through changes too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He was just putting something up saying, hey, I'd like to debate these things.

Right. And he was also trying to get rid of the corruption. That too. I always see Martin Luther as, if he was alive today, he'd probably go back to the

Catholic Church. He did so much to help change the negative things. Yeah. Yeah. But he, you know, so he started, he put together those 95 theses and then they kind of blew up and he was deemed a heretic and all that stuff, but then out of that, out of the whole

Reformation era, there came five solas. Sola Scriptura, which is, we believe in scripture alone, the

Bible alone. So as we say it in our confession, is the Bible is the sole infallible rule of faith and practice for the church.

So everything that we do is founded on the Bible. And then, so Sola Scriptura, then you have

Sola Gratia. You are saved by grace alone. Sola Fide, you are saved through faith alone.

So by grace alone, through faith alone. Sola Scriptura, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solus Christus, is you are saved through the work of Christ alone.

And then Soli Deo Gloria, to the glory of God alone. So those solas came out of the

Reformation era and along with that, there was kind of like a cry for continued

Reformation that was Semper Reformanda. We always want to be reforming and that points back to that first sola,

Sola Scriptura. We're always trying to conform ourselves more and more to the word of God. So that's kind of how, that's what the reformed church is about.

Always reforming and seeking to do so, to conform yourself to the word of God. That's not a bad idea, because if you don't constantly police yourself, you'll get places.