Destruction of Christianity in 55 Seconds?

Today I was directed to a well, it's an audio, but it's posted on YouTube. So it's sort of an audio video something. Posted by someone. I do not know by a Muslim.

And I.

Only respond to it because I want to go to the portion where the gentleman says that Shabir Ali just decimates Christianity in 55 seconds. Well in reality Shabir demonstrated in that 55 seconds that again, he still does not understand the Christian faith that that he attacks.

But I will demonstrate that when we get to it but there were all sorts of other things said that were just amazing in this post and it's further demonstration of the current state of desperation amongst Islamic apologists and I say that because Once one side starts going ad hominem and starts calling people liars and and getting into all the personal stuff It's very clear that they're not winning the debate any longer that they cannot maintain their position in In any meaningful fashion and so this individual made a number of comments.

He starts off with some just just outrageous comments. Just completely over the line and then he brings me in and I want to respond to some of the things he said because it's it's just so disconnected from reality that It truly makes you wonder a little bit what's going on.

So let's uh, let's let's listen into what he had to say.

Debates, Propaganda, and Why Christians Keep Winning

You know, there was a time in these Muslim Christian debates that the notion of a Christian winning one of these debates was unheard of. Christians never won these debates. It was Expected that the Muslim would just come on stage and dominate the Christian from beginning to end.

But Christians like David Wood and James White started getting smart. They started moving away from opponents that knew their stuff.

Really what what planet did this news come from? My first You know, I did one debate in 1999 with Hamza Abdul Malik, but I had not begun studying Islam at that time. I was simply defending my book on the Doctrine of the Trinity the first Islamic debate that I really did Was with Shabir Ali at Biola University.

So I start with Shabir Ali then we arranged another debate. Over a year and not quite a half later right about a year ago right now. With Shabir Ali in Seattle on the crucifixion we arranged that we challenged him that we brought him in and it was a part of something we were doing.

It is Alpha Omega Ministries and So during this time I have been seeking to get Jamal Badawi to debate. Right now I am trying to I've had someone on YouTube that Says that they can help to arrange debate with Zakir Naik.

I'd be happy to be debate Zakir Naik. I would love to track down Gary Miller. Who else do you want to suggest We've put the challenge out there to these individuals the the very idea that we've gotten smart.

It would require first of all that somehow This person believes those first two debates I did with Shabir Ali were just wipeouts and you know what they weren't no matter what you say they were not and Muslims know that so maybe do we have a little changing of history here?

I don't know. But the idea that since I have been invited by others to debate individuals some of which Weren't very good debaters. Nader Ahmed, Osama Abdullah Shouldn't debate. There's no question about it Farhan Qureshi different different issue Farhan is is is a different league, but The idea that somehow We are to blame For that that we've gotten smart.

We were getting beat up bad. So we're going after these other people. It's just Absolutely absurd. I mean that this is this is a fantasy on someone's part. I can I begin to imagine Where this guy is coming up with this stuff, but it again truth and reality over here Muslim over here.

Big difference between the two. This this kind of rhetoric is just it absolutely has no.

Value to it at all and they started debating people that were either shamefully ignorant or people that had a very weak command of the English language and They take these people and they put labels on them.

They label them as scholars like they'll be like David Wood versus Nadir Ahmed a scholar in Islam. And they would take these debates and they would use them as propaganda tools. So you would have Muslims out there Harming Islam more so than helping it because what you were doing is you're turning yourself Into a trophy for the Christians to use to propagate Christianity.

But unfortunately due to the over inflated egos of a lot of these Muslim debaters They become completely blind to the truth of what's going on. But I tell you honestly from a marketing point of view I don't blame people like David Wood and James White for doing what they're doing because The Christians were getting their rear ends handed to him on stage.

And now once again, I leave it to the audience to judge themselves. Whether the two debates I did with Shabir Ali were you know. Some type of a wipe-out as this gentleman's trying to suggest. I don't think Shabir Ali would say that and I've had many other Muslims.

In fact, I've been been criticized by other Muslims for Having in essence Ambushed Shabir Ali. So, you know y 'all need to get your stories straight here. Be as it may. Yes, there are people who? Make claims about themselves that are not Meaningful claims and You know when I debated Nader Ahmed, I just showed up and I gave a meaningful presentation from my side.

I let himself destruct. It's all I did. When I debated Osama Abdullah I gave very nice presentations on the reliability of the text New Testament on the issue of the historical witness for the crucifixion of Jesus Christ and.

He.

Had to throw out stuff on 20 different topics because he couldn't respond to the information I presented. That's not my fault.

Okay.

If if you want to complain about that complain to Nader Ahmed. Go after his supporters. His supporters were after me for years. Calling me a coward for not debating who is because he's the only true Islamic debater.

Anyways Folks that problems on your side of the aisle not mine. I was asked to defend the Christian faith and I did so now I Pointed out recently that and I and I apologized for this. I at first criticized Shabir Ali for debating Dave Hunt and I started thinking about it and I apologized for doing that.

I was wrong. I think Shabir Ali if Dave Hunt is foolish enough to debate Shabir Ali Shabir Ali should go ahead and debate him. Dave Hunt is an evangelical. He is my brother in Christ but he's not a good scholar and he only sees on the page in front of him what he wants to see and He lost his debate with Shabir Ali very badly.

That was very clear.

But I.

Don't have any grounds for criticizing Shabir Ali for defending his faith against Dave Hunt because Dave Hunt is a voice that is out there. He is out there criticizing Islam. Well folks the Nader Ahmed's and the Osama Abdullah's of the world are much more similar to the kind of apologetic argumentation that Muslims are using against the persecuted Christians in the rest of the world than Shabir Ali will ever be.

The Trinity, the Cross, and the Meaning of the Gospel

Now what you need to understand is that I have an advantage over you it is very clear. And I'm speaking of the gentleman who is speaking in this clip. It's very clear. You do not understand me. You don't understand what I why I do what I do.

You don't understand my motivations. You think that I think it's all about me. It's all about marketing. It's all about winning. And as long as you think that that's how I think I'll always have an advantage over you.

This is an advantage. I have over a lot of people I debate because Islam is not the only subject that I address. People do not understand why I do. What I do. It may sound trite to you. But I'm unimportant.

Who I am is unimportant. This isn't about my ego. It's not about Anything about me at all. It really is about the truth of God. And it really is you are actually debating someone who believes that what I'm doing has eternal Consequences and that I am just overjoyed to be able to be used by God to bless his people.

You may not understand that but that's my motivation and so when I am invited to have an opportunity to defend the faith, I will do so and That's why even when I'm debating someone who cannot even behave as an adult like now that Ahmed.

People say how can you be patient with someone how can you not just well because I have a Higher priority. I have a different audience. That I'm there for I'm looking down the road. I want what I'm doing to be useful to the generation after I'm gone and the generation after that and to people outside of That room because there's a camera sitting there recording these things.

That's why I do what I do. I'm not trying to avoid Islam's best. I am pursuing them. That's a documented fact and I say this individual if you can't see that. Well, then you're very very deceived.

You're a clip of literally Shabbir Ali. This proven Christian logic in literally 55 seconds flat. I mean you can time it with your watch. What 55 seconds flat he's up against William Lane Craig and this Craig guy is supposedly like the big thing in Christianity.

Shabbir destroys him and destroys Christianity. The logic of Christianity in 55 seconds. Listen to this.

But in the Christian concept, I do see a difficulty. I had asked does God love his son and Dr. Craig said yes, but also asked, you know, does God love his son as much as he loves the world? This is the whole point of that.

And if he loved the world enough to want to spare the world. Did he not love his son enough to want to spare his son. And couldn't here have been another way that God could just simply forgive human beings.

Wasn't that within his power to do it just to forgive human beings and let his son also go. Or if his son decided to take the sin upon himself. Couldn't. God has said son I really love what you want to do for these people and I want to do for them that very thing more than you want.

To do it for them as much as you want the people to be forgiven. I also want the same let them go and you be free.

And look, here's a clip of David.

Why the Clip Fails to Understand the Christian Doctrine of the Trinity

Now here was the specific section. I wanted to get to in this 55 seconds of Shabbir Ali that this gentleman thinks is a just a complete destruction of Christian logic what it is. The complete demonstration that once again Shabbir's knowledge of the Christian faith is limited and deeply influenced by shall we say Traditions that have no place within the Christian faith.

First of all, he makes reference to William Lane Craig. I would direct people to the many times the many hours We have spent on my webcast The Dividing Line going through William Lane Craig's debates with Shabbir Ali and with the Bart Ehrman and Including I believe this very debate and the subjects that came up there in and we were consistent.

Unlike many of my Muslim friends in disagreeing with many of the things William Lane Craig said he is a mullinist. He comes from a theological position that we would find as reformed believers to be very inconsistent with biblical revelation.

We don't hide that we put it right out there in the open and explain why it's relevant to the differences in our approaches.

To.

Muslim apologetics itself and so we've been very clear about all of that and I don't see that Being done very much by Muslims in providing a critique of their own Apologists along those those lines, but The question that comes up confuses the eternal love of the Father Son Holy Spirit existing within the Trinity and the external love of God toward the world and as Shabbir always does he separates the Father Son and Spirit as if it's a sort of Anthropological thing which may come from again a simple Islamic misunderstanding of such terms as father and son.

I think the writer of the Quran did not understand the doctrine Trinity either. But be it as it may he does not seem to realize that the biblical presentation That is it's it's not salvation doesn't find its its origin in one person and the other is unwillingly involved and the third just tagging Along the gospel is Trinitarian.

It is the work of the triune Majesty in eternity past that shows the roles that each of the divine persons would play in bringing about the eternal covenant of redemption Jesus gives himself.

Voluntarily.

The father is the fountainhead of this entire plan. The spirit is the one that comes and makes this to come alive. The entire response completely misses the point because it separates the divine persons and Likewise again does not understand that from a biblical perspective God's holy law his holiness Not only must be vindicated to the punishment of sin and hence his justice demonstrated but that that's that entire concept of holiness is Intimate it's intricate within the text itself.

It cannot be just separate up. God can't just go. Okay. I forgive Because that would mean that his holiness is not being demonstrated. There would be injustice in the world if he brings wrath against one, but he doesn't give against another.

You have injustice. The cross is the only way that we can have forgiveness because God's wrath comes against Jesus Christ and against him perfectly. No one receives injustice. Your sin will be either punished in yourself or in a perfect substitute.

The cross however is a demonstration of mercy and of grace and that's where those attributes of God his mercy his grace is loving-kindness is Demonstrated in the perfect plan of the gospel that is revealed in the work and ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ.

So I'm sorry that this gentleman thinks that Shabir's misunderstandings are representative of the Christian faith, but he's wrong and again Who are you debating for? Who is this man even recording for?

If you're only looking at making yourself look good in your in the eyes of your people then you're gonna debate in a certain way that's not why I debate and That shouldn't be why this gentleman's doing whatever it is.

He's doing he undoubtedly feels that he's serving Allah. But I would like to suggest that to serve God requires truthfulness in what you're doing. All of us make errors. But there seems to be a consistent attitude problem in this particular instance after this.

He then plays a section. I'm not gonna play the whole thing of David's debate with alia-tai interesting lefty. He only plays that part of it and it I'm sorry from a Christian perspective is in no way shape or form a compelling section to play at all.

I would suggest people listen to David's debate with alia-tai. I think of it went very very well and When he presents alia-tai as being an expert on these things, I would direct people to the numerous Articles I posted on my blog demonstrating error after error after error in context and language in Alia-tai's materials in regards to Apostle Paul and that raises one other issue this this video is getting rather long.

So let me wrap it up here. Another thing that he brought up in this particular video was That I'm allegedly dodging a debate challenge you know some of the things he would say if if there if Zakir Naik was standing outside my door asking the debate and Shabir Ali and Gary Miller and Etc, etc.

And and I was only debating people like Nader Ahmed. He might have a point. Obviously, that is not true. But there is I was told I don't know how many months ago maybe a year ago. It may even been more than that and I think about I'm not sure I've never seen the video.

But I've been told about a Muslim in Greece Who wants to debate in Greek? And that's why I've never even bothered looking at it because Just think at how much the English language has changed just over the past Four or five six hundred years since really it's an it's inception.

I.

Have never claimed not once have I ever claimed to speak modern Greek. I could probably make my way around. Well enough. But I do not claim to speak modern Greek. The New Testament was not written in modern Greek.

It was written in Koine and. So I've just always chuckled the idea that some somebody wants to debate in Greek. If if that debate challenge was to have any meaning whatsoever. Any scholarly meaning whatsoever?

It would be you have heard in.

Your.

Responses to people like Ahmed Deedat where I demonstrate he couldn't even get the the right article with the right word you have heard and in these other videos that you've done and Here's the demonstration.

But that's not what they're doing if I've made a mistake about Koine Greek not modern Greek. Koine Greek Documented should be easily done. There's no question about the fact that I've taught Greek and Greek exegesis on the graduate level at Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary.

That's not it's a documented fact. There's no questions about that. But that's not my field in the sense that there are people and all they ever do is teach Greek all they ever do is Teach New Testament.

That's that's just what they do. They don't study church history. They don't study Islam. They don't study Mormonism they just teach in that area and that would be very enjoyable, but I'm an apologist and One of my strengths as an apologist is that I have been a teacher I've taught Greek and Greek exegesis and Hebrew and Hebrew exegesis and church history and systematic theology and Christology and special topics and Patristics and I've I've loved having those opportunities.

I love teaching but I'm limited in the amount of time that I can do it because my first calling is to be an apologist one who Defends the gospel of Jesus Christ. So I do have a background those areas and especially in textual criticism of the New Testament.

That's an area that I I do do a lot of work in so If you want to document errors in that area then do so. Put it out there but the idea of debating in modern Greek is Not. I never even took it. Seriously.

This gentleman does but I'm sorry. I don't even take it. Seriously. If you want to demonstrate that what I've said about John 1 1 is false. Then throw it out there put it into the arena of ideas and let's see if it stands up.

That's all I'm asking that people do that's what we're doing. And that's why I do not want to get into this kind of personal stuff. With individuals like this gentleman, I hold no animosity toward the gentleman.

I'm sorry that he feels that this is a worthwhile type of thing to be doing. I'm not talking about the Greek fellow, even though again, I don't understand that challenge either but this fellow we've been listening to.

Why aren't these folks investing their time in.

And.

Maybe correcting the Greek errors of an awkward D dot or correcting the errors of another Achmed Clean up your side of the aisle first be consistent like we are and then if you feel that I've been in error Concerning the things I've said about Greek prove it.

Put on the screen and prove it and that isn't that fairly simple. Isn't that how this should be taking place? I think it is. So I hope this been useful to you. I hope it is. I hope that the the gentleman who recorded this Recognizes that I have no personal animosity toward you despite I think The rather unkind way that you spoke of me as a Christian.

I forgive you for that and I would ask you to realize that this is not about me and it's not about you. These are about eternal things. Things that go far beyond you and I and I again would call my Muslim opponents to a higher level Demonstrate where I'm wrong.

You know when when one more of the Muslims or one of the Muslims whatever his screen name was Accused me of patripassion ism How'd I respond with anger toward him or just simply demonstrating that he was completely wrong and then found out later He stole that from Gary Miller.

Anyways People like that need to come out on YouTube and say you know what I Was wrong. I should never have used that argument. It was a bogus argument and I withdraw it. That's the way that you can demonstrate that you actually have a love for truth.

And of course as a Christian, I believe the Holy Spirit of God Births that love of truth in someone's heart as a part of drawing them To Jesus Christ. Thanks for watching.