Provoked: Exposing the Dark World of IVF

Apologia Studios

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00:00

Hey, what's up, everybody? Welcome to another show of Provoked. I'm sitting here with my sister, Desi.

00:05

Howdy. How are you? I'm doing well. Jake the Babe? Nope, the Bull. Jake the Bull. Yeah, it's

00:10

Gabe the Babe. Jake the Bull. He's like different every single time.

00:17

I don't know if I like Bull, Jake the Bull, though. He might have to come up with something different. That's it. It's written in stone. Jake or the

00:23

Baker? No, that doesn't work. Let's see. How you guys doing? Jake and Bake. Jake and Bake.

00:28

That's it. Jake and Bake. That's it. The lightbulb moment. That's it. Forever.

00:34

We call that forever. It's on your tombstone. Could be worse. Anyway, if you haven't tuned in before, we are

00:40

Provoked. We just try to provoke Christians to be Christians. As the scripture states, stirring one another unto love and good works, especially in the realm of evangelism and going out and saving babies that are dying every single day.

00:53

So that's who we are. If you want to really support our show, which I pray that you would, you can go to ApologyofChurch .com

01:00

and ApologyofStudios .com, become an All Access member, and that'll just lend your prayers and your financial support so we can keep this going.

01:09

Because what we have going is something pretty awesome. So, got a good show today? Yeah, I think it's provocative.

01:16

Yeah, it's very provocative. It's suiting. Yeah. Very, very. We have two of the best people who ever were born in the history of mankind on our show.

01:26

Goodness gracious. Just two of our favorite people,

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Marcus Pittman and Laura Klassen. You should tell your wife that. Well, I love you more than my wife, so I'm just going to say it here.

01:39

All right. This is a provocative episode. So we'll start with Marcus. Marcus is the creator of Lore.

01:47

Are you the CEO or a digital creator? I'm CEO. Yeah, you're CEO, founder, digital creator.

01:53

You just do everything over there because that's what it takes, right? Mainly I just ask rich people for money.

02:00

Sweet. That's my main job right now. Yeah, you probably know who

02:05

Marcus is if you've tuned into anything Apology. Apology of Studios wouldn't even exist without Marcus Pittman because God used you as just an integral player in getting this going.

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And we love you for it and we appreciate you. We miss you. Yeah, I miss you guys too. I think when

02:21

I got there, I got there in 2015 and it was just a blank building. Yeah, nothing. Exactly. Yeah.

02:27

Well, now we got to go. We're actually looking for a new spot. Somebody told me that last week.

02:32

Yeah, we are moving and expanding and trying to find a good spot. Yeah, it's going to be a monumental move, but we're ready for it.

02:40

So I'm going to get back to you in a second and have you talk about what you're doing. But thanks for coming on, Laura.

02:45

Laura is the director of Choice for Two. How are you? I'm great.

02:51

Thank you. Good. We'd love to see your face. Likewise.

02:57

Just the weirdest, awkward thing I could possibly say. Sorry about that. I love Laura though. She's like the, what did

03:03

I call you last time? The Katniss Everdeen of baby -saving? She is. Of abolition. She really is.

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So they both have produced something pretty special that just came out. We'll get into that. But Marcus, going back to you, just tell us what you're doing and what's going on with you.

03:20

Yeah. So, I mean, for the past two years, we've been developing

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Lore TV, which is a streaming platform that lets the monthly subscribers spend their subscription funding movies and TV shows.

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We've spent two years building that out. We've signed 40 contracts with artists for movies and TV shows.

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And we'll be launching them as our subscriber base grows. And our subscriber base can reasonably fund episodes and TV shows.

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We'll be expanding them out. So we got a lot of content lined up. All rebellious filmmakers who just don't want to do like the

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Pure Flix nonsense, the Hallmark movie nonsense. So it's been fun starting a rebellion that's needed to happen.

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And Laura Clausen is probably one of the most talented artists I think that we get to work with.

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And the projects that she does is a great testament to the kind of content that we want to make on Lore.

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And that it couldn't happen anywhere else. The kind of content, like if she was trying to, like no other

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Christian streaming service would take a risk on her content. And so that's the kind of content artists want to make everywhere, but they just don't have a way to do it.

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And so that's sort of what we've created is basically an art house. We like to say we're the MTV of Christian entertainment.

04:59

We're just an art house for independent film. Right on. So why should people cancel their Pure Flix and go to Lore?

05:05

What would be the reason? Well, because they're not a grandma, I think.

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If you're younger than a grandma, that's probably a good reason to not have

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Pure Flix. But I think also too, I think like their content is just, it's focused on being a gospel track at the expense of the art.

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And so, which is not the medium in which movies are for.

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Movies are not made for special revelation. They're made for general revelation primarily.

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So much like God made the heavens and the stars and the planets and the universe, and they all speak to the existence of God.

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Same is true with movies. They don't have to necessarily be evangelistic. They can be, like Laura's project is a great example of that.

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But when that's your main focus at the expense of the art, where you don't care about the art, you don't care about the quality, you don't care about the production.

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The only thing that really matters is whether or not you have a gospel message at the end of it.

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And your project is about a pony, a little girl, and has a puppy in it, and someone has cancer.

06:32

Those are the four main categories that PureFlix looks for. Or somebody's getting married on Christmas.

06:40

That's PureFlix. Well, yeah, you can find the same categories that Christian films use.

06:48

Those are in the Hallmark movies as well. So if you watch any of the Hallmark movies that just came out this year, me and my wife would watch some, because that's what you do around Christmas time is you watch the cheesy

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Christmas rom -coms. You can find the horse in them. You can find the puppy in them.

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You can find the little girl in them. And there's usually some sort of tragic event. So they're all from that same cycle.

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And we just found so many artists that were like, we just want to break all the rules of Christian entertainment and just make good stories and just focus on good stories.

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And that's sort of what we've done is just we created a playground where the artists can make whatever they want.

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You're not getting notes from the studio. We don't tell Laura for the expose.

07:37

We don't give her any sort of notes. That's like, you need to make sure that you have the right race of characters in here.

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You have to make sure it's diverse. We don't do any of that sort of stuff. And I don't think we've given you any notes on your projects,

07:56

Laura, have you? Other than like, maybe just some, I don't know. I don't even know if we've given you really advice at all, really.

08:03

Not me. I don't know what John's told you. Yeah, well, yeah, some stuff I run by.

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Because like, yeah, some things were getting a little spicy on this one. And I was like, you know, you think this is fine?

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So he definitely helped me out with some of that. So pagans are making much better flicks and films and Christians just because they they sacrifice production.

08:26

Right on the value of just inputting things that they they think they need to input. Is that what you're saying, Marcus? Well, I think

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I think what's happening with pure flicks or has happened with faith based films in the past, where they sacrifice production to get those key points of the message that they want to present to you in is the same thing that's happening with Netflix and Disney right now.

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They're sacrificing the story just to get those key points in that they want to preach to you.

08:54

For Netflix and Disney, it's LGBT diversity sort of nonsense. You know, all the

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DEI, ESG sort of stuff they have to do to boost their score. But with and that's the same thing with the faith based market.

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They said, well, you know, we don't have to worry about really the story as long as it's about the message. So those are the extremes.

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And the Christians that are working in Hollywood who would never, ever work for the faith based film industry are coming to lore because we're the only ones that's giving them really just the freedom to make stories because Hollywood's not doing it anymore.

09:31

So we have a real advantage right now. Yeah, I think it's like the perfect storm right now for just people that are going to want to subscribe to lore, that they're going to want to put their money there because people are just sick of like what you just said with all the

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LGBTQ propaganda and everything else. It's like, OK, where can I put my money where I'm not just going to be fed garbage all day?

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And then to speak to your point on like Pureflex, you know, it's like we as Christians should want excellence.

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We should strive for excellence in the arts and music and in every subject because Christ is

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Christ overall, like even in art and music and all of that. So I think it's the perfect time for lore to kind of come into the scene because it's a well needed service.

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And I can't wait to see what God really, really does with it and that he already has done.

10:28

Like what we're about to look at is an incredible piece that I think is very thought provoking and something that needs to be discussed within Christendom.

10:38

Yeah, man, I could talk so long on this. But where do you see yourself in or where do you see lore in two years, two to five years?

10:47

I want I want people to talk about lore movies and TV shows the same way they talk about Game of Thrones.

10:56

Just part of the cultural narrative. The CEO of HBO said that he doesn't care how many people watch

11:02

Game of Thrones. He cares about how many people talk about it. And I think that's where I want to be.

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I was just watching a documentary on HBO Max about the founding of Warner Brothers Studios.

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And their motto or their mission statement is to push the culture forward using movies and television shows.

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And so, you know, they know what they're doing. You know, everyone on the left that runs these studios knows that they exist to push an agenda.

11:40

They've always done that, even in the 1900s when they started. And so that's what

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I want lore to do is I want more to be a global Christian brand that is pushing forward a

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Christian narrative. I want I would be nice to be as big as Netflix and then just launch the craziest lore

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Klassen project and just send shockwaves on CNN and MSNBC about it.

12:08

Like that's that's the goal is to get big enough that you can really start some fires that are important.

12:14

Yeah. What do you think has to happen in the minds of Christians for it to get to the place where we're talking about lore productions like we would talk about Game of Thrones?

12:25

What change has to happen? You think like what's preventing that from happening? Well, it's a building process, too. So that takes time.

12:31

But what do you think? I mean, it's taken two years just to build out the tech that we have now. You know, from here, we have to focus on, you know, subscribers and customer acquisition, those sort of things.

12:42

So that's like primary mission number one. And, you know, so there's a lot of steps that go into that over time.

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But I firmly believe if you just give artists the freedom to make what they want, you're going to win because no one else is doing that.

12:58

And that's if you look at the history, I read a lot of like books on the history of television networks and or media stuff.

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The history of MTV was just we're going to give the artists the freedom to do what they want.

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Same thing with Adult Swim on Cartoon Network. They just gave artists freedom. Nickelodeon was the same way when it first started out.

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They just hired artists that were good and they didn't know what they wanted on Nickelodeon. So the network didn't give really any notes.

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And they came out with, you know, all the stuff they did from Nicktoons to you can't do that on television.

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Way throwback Nickelodeon stuff was just all breaking the rules of what children's content was supposed to be.

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So every every major art brand has started on the artist's freedom to be able to create content.

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And nobody has that anymore. When is micromanaging and controlling people ever produced anything in any industry ever?

13:58

You know, you can't do that. Nothing good ever comes out of that. Because you're not saying come on to Laura to get sound theology, correct?

14:09

I wouldn't say that because when you say that, I would say you're going to get that.

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I think Laura Clawson's project that we're going to watch is sound theology.

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But you're you're you're coming on board to get entertained. Right. You're going to be entertained from the worldview of the artists.

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And the artists are going to present with you present to you a good story that is true to the world.

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So that's like that's the main thing. When you say, well, you're going to get theology on Laura. I wouldn't

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I wouldn't I wouldn't I wouldn't say that because that immediately sends up flags that you're going to get like just talking head preaching sermons.

14:53

Sure. My question is. Or even political like talk radio. Right. What about a

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Mormon? Say a Mormon came on Mormon artists and he wanted to create something for Laura. And he had no blasphemy rule.

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We have no blasphemy rule. So they'd have to adhere to that. And it's a

15:12

Trinitarian blasphemy rule. It'll be interesting. But I don't think we would have any problems with Mormon actors or, you know, like like that.

15:24

That's not a problem. The problem is the story and the narrative that they're pushing. Right.

15:30

And, you know, so so it'll be it'd be an interesting question. But but I don't know if they get past the first stage of the vetting process.

15:39

Gotcha. Most. OK. Favorite TV series of all time. Breaking Bad.

15:45

Of course. Favorite. It's between Better Call Saul and Breaking Bad. I think I don't know. I don't know if you can separate them, though, as a narrative.

15:53

Don't you think the dialogue in Better Call Saul is just way better than Breaking Bad? Or I think it's superior.

16:00

Maybe not way better. Especially between. No, I think. Well, I mean, I mean, that's like those guys are like so well practiced and rehearsed for Better Call Saul.

16:11

By the time they ended Breaking Bad, did Better Call Saul that they're so like. And the network probably gives them like no notes whatsoever because they know they're geniuses.

16:21

So they probably Vince, Vince Gilligan and the other guy that was the producer of Better Call Saul.

16:28

Peter, I can't think of his name off the top of my head. But they probably just had they could probably do whatever they wanted at that point.

16:37

And they knew it. And you could tell that's why Better Call Saul, I think. I think you'd say Better Call Saul is better.

16:42

Yeah. Like I think you could say it. Yeah. I think. But I don't think Breaking Bad would be as good if it wasn't for Better Call Saul.

16:49

Oh, totally. No way. They need each other. Yeah. But the McGill brothers, Jimmy, I can't remember his name right now.

16:55

Their dialogue in that movie is some of the best I've ever, ever. Yeah. It's definitely the best show ever created.

17:02

Yeah. OK. Did you watch Spider -Verse? Not yet. Oh, it's it's awesome.

17:07

It's I heard it. I heard about it. Yeah, it's phenomenally good. OK, Laura, I watched last night.

17:13

What'd you say? I mean, my wife watched the first one again last night. Oh, yeah. The second one is

17:20

I think it's superior. It's phenomenally good. You're gonna love it. Hi, Laura. Hi.

17:26

How's it going? Good. So tell us who you are and what you're doing.

17:33

Yeah, the director of the anti -abortion organization Choice for Two. And also,

17:40

I guess, the director of the new series we're doing called Exposed. That's generally who

17:49

I am, I guess. What is Choice for Two? What are you doing? What is the whole purpose behind,

17:56

I guess you could say, the organization? Yeah. So still still doing the two things.

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Kind of one, really trying to talk about abortion within our culture and kind of bring to light how awful it actually is.

18:12

And then on the other side, we're actually talking directly to women who have abortions booked or who are considering abortion and basically just trying to save their child and then offering support if that's needed.

18:28

Yeah. And I think you have produced the best productions for abortion ever.

18:36

Like, can you think of anything superior to what Laura has produced? That's really good stuff.

18:43

Yeah. Yeah. God really has used you and it's powerful. And I can't, if you think about it,

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Marcus, you can chime in here. I can't think of anybody doing anything better or has done anything better than you have.

18:54

No, I think it's better than babies are murdered here and babies are still murdered here. So I like the stuff she's doing is incredible, you know, and the talent that she's working with is at another level as well.

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But I mean, I don't know. How did you get the idea for the first one,

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Laura? The first episode? Yeah. The first exposed is crazy.

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Like, I remember watching, you sent me the storyboard for it, the animatic of it.

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And I was just like, I think I thought about it for three days and it was just a rough cut.

19:38

Yeah. Yeah. The procedure that that was a true story. Well, I got the idea because that ultrasound tech messaged me and just told me his story.

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And I was like, this could make a really good this could make a really good video.

19:55

And I think people need to know that this kind of stuff is happening. Awesome. Yeah. I think there's just there's these pieces that come out that really resonate with a lot of people and just shed light on the truth of abortion.

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I think Laura's work in the procedure, I think 180 babies are murdered here.

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Those are like these key pieces. I feel like that for me personally, God has been like, this is what it is.

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180 and babies are murdered here. Like those changed my life. Those changed my worldview.

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And I think that Laura's work is doing the same for other people that are looking at the situation in a different light.

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They're like, hey, you know, I was kind of on the fence before. But now after seeing this, you know,

20:36

I don't know anymore. So it's so visceral and it's so in your face.

20:42

You have to if you watch it, you have to come to grips with the reality of what abortion is. Right.

20:47

You can't look away from it. There's no way to get around if you're actually watching this. Right. So it forces you to come to a decision about the issue.

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Because like when you get done watching you say, OK, this is real. This is a reality. It's not just a word.

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There's no euphemisms here. Here's really what's happening. And do I care about this or not? You know, so it really kind of creates this decision point, especially for Christians of like,

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I can't be in favor of this. Nor can I be passive about it either. You know, just because of how horrendous this really is.

21:17

Absolutely. Yeah. OK, let's do this. So I think a lot of people, you know, if they hear

21:23

IVF, they don't even know what that is. Right. It kind of I don't even know what's going on here. So what we'll do is we'll watch the video.

21:30

It's two minutes and 41 seconds long. And then we can talk about it. And let's just kind of be explanatory for people who just don't know anything about this.

21:40

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24:15

Awesome. You guys did a good job on that.

24:28

Really, really great. How long did it take to create this start to finish? Well, I wrote it this month last year.

24:36

Oh, wow. And then we didn't really start on it because we were still working on the procedure.

24:42

So when we released the procedure in October, then we really kind of got going on it. It does take a while.

24:49

It just does. There's so many steps and then so many different artists involved. Yeah. Okay.

24:55

So let's just kind of break it down and maybe simplify it. Clarify it for people who will watch this and say,

25:00

I really don't understand what's going on. Like, what is happening here? Maybe explain the terms. What are you trying to do?

25:08

Communicate through this. Sure. Well, so I sort of wanted to do this episode in general because I never really thought anything about IVF.

25:20

I grew up in a church where it was very supported and a lot of people in the church did

25:25

IVF. And so a lot of my friends are they were made like through IVF.

25:31

And it was really just that was just what you did. You were having trouble having children. That's just what you did.

25:38

And then really yet never thought about it at all until a couple of years ago. So one of my lovely pro vote trolls made this comment.

25:48

If you actually believe that life begins at conception, then why aren't you out protesting in front of the IVF clinics?

25:53

And I was like, because that's not the same thing at all. And then but I was like,

25:59

I don't actually know what goes on there. So, you know, did a bit of research. And I was like, oh, my goodness, this.

26:07

No, like if life begins at conception, this is not OK. And that was like pretty awkward for me because just so many people that I know, family members, just everyone doing it.

26:22

And just just really the Christian culture that I was in just fully embraced it.

26:28

No questions asked, really. And so then as I started looking into it more and more, just every step of the way,

26:36

I was like, this is really messed up. So like it shows in the video, just I'd never thought about it before.

26:44

Like one of the first steps there is the guy masturbating to get sperm.

26:49

Right. Like whether whether it's him or whether you're using from a donor bank. And those rooms are terrible.

26:57

Like even as a Christian, like walking in there, you think that would be like a major red flag of like I shouldn't be here because there's porn all over the place.

27:06

There's DVDs of porn, you know, and it just blows my mind kind of that Christians.

27:12

That's how this started. And then they move forward. That's not even like the death part of it.

27:18

Right. So, yeah. So just in terms of the process and what we showed, it was just very basic.

27:26

I didn't even go into any of the other deeper things, which are really messed up as well.

27:32

Like this was just a very general the way that IVF is done. And so, yeah, you have to get the sperm from the guy.

27:41

You've got to get the eggs from the woman. And that involves a lot of hormone injection. Like it is really not a nice process, which and, you know, now they are connecting all of those hormone injections to different cancers and stuff like it's really sad.

27:58

So you go through all of that injections and you're doing it yourself at home. And then to get the eggs out, that's a surgery.

28:06

And then once they have the eggs and the sperm, they put them together in the dish and create these embryos, which is what they call them.

28:18

And those, you know, you believe life begins at conception. Those are human beings there in that dish.

28:24

And immediately they're evaluated, which is something that I think a lot of Christians don't even know.

28:33

Like a lot of them will tell me, but we did it ethically. My husband closed his eyes in the porn room and then we all of the embryos.

28:46

Yeah. All of the embryos that were created, we used them all.

28:52

There were none left over. But I'm like, you actually don't know how many there were because you wouldn't have been told right off the bat.

28:59

Like they're looking, say you have 16 and they're evaluating them and they're like, oh, like eight of these aren't looking so hot.

29:05

They just get rid of them at that point. And so you're told then that you have eight. And then, yeah, so they would implant one or two.

29:17

Usually, I think it really varies by country, even by state and even by a province, which

29:22

I just found out like here in Alberta, they'll do up to four, which is that.

29:29

This is why you get into the selective reduction stuff. So anyway, the whole implantation thing involves them putting the embryo back into the woman, into the uterus.

29:40

And a lot of hormone injections involved once again. And if you don't have a uterus because, you know, maybe you're a gay couple or there's just something wrong with the woman's uterus.

29:51

You can literally rent a womb of somebody for her to carry your child for you, which just goes into a lot of other really kind of sad problems, which

30:05

I'd never thought about. Like it is traumatic for a newborn to be taken away from the biological mother at birth.

30:12

Right. Just something people don't don't even really think about. So, yeah, that's just kind of it along the way.

30:21

And then the whole of the whole freezing of people is is the last really weird thing, because, you know, they say there's millions of these embryos frozen right now.

30:33

And, you know, they're being thought out decades after they were created.

30:38

And and most of them don't survive the thawing process, first of all.

30:44

And so that's a whole thing. And then when people decide that they have their one or two children, they don't want to use the rest.

30:52

They can they say donate, but the clinics actually sell them. So you are buying embryos if you want to then adopt someone else's embryos or their or you have the choice to then decide to throw them out or they're donated to science.

31:09

And I mean, that's super weird that a lot of a lot of the things that we're benefiting from in a medical world are created off the backs of these frozen humans.

31:23

So that was kind of the whole the whole overview of it.

31:30

And I just I knew it would happen, that there would be a lot of pushback even from Christian from Christians just because.

31:40

They love IVF, I guess it's really become an idol, and so they can't.

31:48

They can't like they're telling me life begins at conception. Abortion is wrong. IVF is

31:54

OK. Because apparently life doesn't begin at conception and for that.

32:01

Yeah, it's crazy. So what kind of pushback? I mean, you just said a little bit there, but what kind of pushback have you gotten?

32:07

Because it dropped two days ago, right? Yeah, I think so. So have you got a lot of hate? Yeah, mostly just a lot of people trying to justify it and writing about why it was

32:19

OK that they did it, which is really sad. I'm like, you don't need to explain yourself to me like it's done.

32:26

But I and I'm not sad that your child is here.

32:32

You know, like that's a human being created in the image of God that that person like deserves to live.

32:37

It's not like your child is less than. And I'm happy that you have that child. But at the same time,

32:42

IVF is evil and I think it needs to end. I think people need to wake up to that now. And we've taken it too far.

32:50

It's all driven by emotion. It's not, you know, just the heartbreak of infertility and basically the idea that we deserve children, that if you want a child, you should be able to have a child at any cost and at the cost of many more of your other children's lives.

33:10

Yeah. And it's so cloaked in, hey, we're just trying to help women have babies.

33:18

Right. We're doing what we can. It's pro -life. It's pro -life. But you are having a child at the expense of your other children.

33:26

You're killing your children to have a child. So I guess the question is, is

33:32

IVF. Yeah, it's sacrifice. It's blood sacrifice. Yeah, blood sacrifice. Child sacrifice. But is

33:38

IVF redeemable in any sense? Is it good in any sense?

33:44

Or can it be changed to be good? Because right now it's freaking horribly evil.

33:50

This is the destruction. That's a question I had. Maybe Laura can ask that. What if there was a clinic that only did one at a time?

33:59

But that's just not the reality, right? Right. It's not the reality. Can it be reformed?

34:07

Yeah, I'm not sure. My gut says no. I just think that we've taken it too far.

34:15

And God opens and closes the womb. And things have just gotten so crazy.

34:22

Even if the intention was good at first, now any child with any sort of genetic disability doesn't get to live.

34:30

Parents who are two men get to have a child. And that is not in a baby's best interest, to not have a mother or to not have a father.

34:39

It's all just very self -driven. I have also been thinking about embryo adoption.

34:47

Because obviously these are individuals here in freezers, right? And I know of some really,

34:55

I don't know them personally, but they seem like really great people who have gone and basically rescued these embryos and had children.

35:06

And then when I was looking into that more, I just realized that all the money that it takes to do that goes right back into the

35:13

IVF machine. And so I'm not saying that it's wrong to rescue individuals.

35:21

If I had the option to buy a slave back in the day and rescue a child, would

35:28

I have done it? I think so. Even though you're paying back into this slavery market.

35:35

But I really struggle with the whole thing because they are just cranking out so many humans.

35:42

And they are benefiting from anything to do with IVF. Even if it's the embryo adoption thing.

35:49

I think that ideally IVF would just be outlawed completely.

35:55

And the embryos that are in storage would all be given a chance. If we could just do that, end it, and then find people who would adopt all of these embryos, that's the only way that I can see this going properly right now.

36:12

Yeah. Because there's really no battlefront within Christendom, the kingdom against IVF.

36:20

Nobody's really doing anything. So babies are murdered here. Got everybody out to the clinics in a massive way, right?

36:28

Babies are murdered here. I mean, who knows how many babies are saved because of that production. And babies are murdered here too.

36:33

So maybe it's time. So what's crazy is it was Robert Gray, right?

36:39

Marcus. He came up with the design. And then you made the production.

36:45

And then Christian started going to the clinics in a huge way.

36:50

Got really publicized. I was one of them. And now I think maybe it's time that we go to the

36:57

IVF clinics with our signs. Right? Yeah. Yeah. That'd be really interesting to see what happens as a result of that.

37:06

Yeah. You remember when we used to go to Planned Parenthood over there on Apache and Dorsey? It moved.

37:11

Yeah. And there was the couple. Yeah. Earl. Earl. Earl.

37:17

And the transvestite. Earl. Earl. I know his last name too. But I'll just say it was

37:22

Earl and the trainee person. The dude. But it was. Yeah, it was a dude.

37:28

And then they would always record those videos of them outside of the IVF clinic and say, how come

37:35

Apology is not out here? If they really believe. Hey, cool story. Cool story. Real quick. One time they both had big old megaphones in my ears and I was preaching down the corridor and I was like, nothing's happening here.

37:47

And then a guy would just start a ball and walk in down the corridor towards me and his wife chose life.

37:55

So that was pretty awesome. Man, that's. So cool. Yeah. But anyway, I'm talking about those guys because Earl and.

38:02

Earl. Earl and the other guy, they would say constantly. I mean, we probably heard it dozens if not hundreds of times.

38:09

Why aren't you at the IVF clinic? You're a hypocrite. Why aren't you at the IVF clinic? Why aren't you at the IVF clinic? And I was like, oh, well.

38:14

I think my response was, you know, there's only so many soldiers in the battle, we have to choose our battle fronts.

38:22

And so I said, that's a good battle front, but I can't be two places at one time here. And, you know, maybe

38:29

I justified my inactivity in doing it, but really, I'll just honestly tell you my mind was just not even there because I hadn't even wrapped my mind around how evil

38:39

IVF that it's evil. And we have to call it evil because so many people are not calling it evil.

38:44

I think it's good. And like for Laura to say it needs to be outlawed, that's the type of terms that we need to start talking about this in.

38:52

It needs to shift. There needs to be like Rusty would say a paradigm shift in the way that we think about this. And if we can call it what it is and use illustrations like Laura was just using and build on that to really change the mind of our brothers and sisters, that's when that mentality shifts going to eventuate into getting out in front of the clinics and saving babies that way.

39:14

And it would be just telling people, Hey, don't go in there. Don't do this. Right. And then trying to get our hands on frozen embryos so we could adopt those out.

39:25

Is that even a possibility? Do you pay for those or how does that work?

39:30

Yeah, you do. You buy it. That's the thing. Like the whole thing is human trafficking. Like legit.

39:36

It really is. So yeah, that's. Yeah. There's a couple of things come to my mind here.

39:43

One is in terms of like how to address this with Christians. The first one is knowledge, like needing to truly inform

39:52

Christians of what this is. Like I think Laura walking through this simple definition of what IVF is and even just the process is going to be really enlightening for people to truly understand what it is.

40:02

Even the first step, like the porn room, you know, boom, end it right there. Is this, is this honoring to God or not?

40:08

Right. And then the second one is consistency. All that's going through my mind right now as I'm thinking about this, this process is you've heard these stories way back in early church history.

40:19

The Romans, if they, you know, mom gave birth to a baby, some of them was wrong with the baby physically.

40:25

There's a defect. They'd leave the child out in the cold and to die by exposure. And then we venerate and honor the

40:31

Christians who would go and find those babies and adopt them. So Christians today, I think would hear those stories and say, that's incredible, you know, that I'm part of that.

40:40

And our brothers and sisters way back then did that, you know? And yet they justify something like this, where it's kind of the same thing really.

40:50

I mean, if there's some, if there's children who are undesirable in any way, they're just discarded. It just happens.

40:56

And we use this argument too and confronting people about the issue of abortion is it's just, they're small. There's human beings, but they're just small.

41:02

So this is the same thing. It's just on a smaller scale. But does that mean they're less human because they're small?

41:09

You know? No, they're not. And Christians still should get in that fight and rescue those babies.

41:16

Just how do we do that? You know? Yeah. We just have to be consistent pro -lifers and not just say, oh, it's an embryo.

41:23

And so I'm going to like mentally default into the mode of, oh, it's just not a baby. I think that's where people go.

41:30

And I think that there is no battle raging against IVF.

41:35

And I think that's primarily one of the big causes because, oh yeah, life ends at fertilization. Do we really believe that?

41:42

If we did, then now it's time to end IVF now. Yep. Right. Well, we don't stand outside of Walmarts and CVS because they carry plan

41:50

B either. Right. It's true. Can't be everywhere. Yeah. We have a long ways to go.

41:58

I have a lot I want to say. So I would say yes to everything you said.

42:06

I think a lot of it too is like Jake was saying is just people don't know. They really don't.

42:11

I think it's not that I think there are people that just love IVF, but I think there are a lot of Christians that don't realize what goes into it.

42:21

Like everything that you just mapped out is so eye opening. And I would just say to speak to people that have been through or are currently like going through infertility, like me and my husband went through that for years and man, there's a lot of despair there.

42:39

And it wasn't that we just wanted a baby as a commodity. We didn't want to treat, we never got

42:44

IVF, but we really, really wanted a biological baby. We really wanted to get pregnant and it just wasn't happening.

42:52

And I think that if you haven't walked that, if you just are able to have kids, you know, easily, there's, there's, it's, it's very painful.

43:02

It's very, very painful walk that I know a lot of people have been through that doesn't justify murdering children, but there is just a level of despair there.

43:11

I think that people kind of get a fog over and they're just like go into a doctor's office and they're told like, if you do this and this, we can give you this baby that you've been praying for.

43:21

And so there's just a lot there, but I think that we have to look at the big picture and say, just because maybe in the past we didn't realize how awful it was.

43:31

And babies have been made that way. And we know people walking on earth today that we love that have been created through IVF and people that have participated in that, that, that doesn't mean we can't go back and say, look, now that this is exposed and now that we're seeing the light on that, we need to show that this is wrong and on a lot of different levels.

43:51

And that's like you said, Lord, not to be like, I'm, I wish that your child that was born with a through IVF wasn't here.

43:58

Of course we don't think that at all. It's to say, Hey, just like a, you know, before modern ultrasound technology, people really did think that some of these babies,

44:09

I mean, I mean, I think this is arguable. We're just a clump of cells. There are people that were like, no, it's just a clump of cells.

44:16

Now we're seeing through modern ultrasound technology that this is, it's not just a clump of cells, even though inherently we knew that from the beginning,

44:25

I'm just making an argument, but we can see things a lot clearer now. We understand what the baby is in the womb from the moment of conception.

44:35

IVF now we're seeing like, I think it was created in like 1978 or something the first woman to have

44:41

IVF, she had blocked fallopian tubes. And so the doctor took, you know, the egg and the sperm and a baby was made.

44:49

And then, you know, sinful man takes that and it has just become this monster now where it's the

44:56

LGBTQ community is using it. Millions of babies are being discarded. That's something that wasn't even touched on.

45:04

Is the, you know, Dave Rubens, right? The conservative gays who are talking about how they, you know, now are fathers or a couple that say we're both mothers because of IVF.

45:21

That's a completely different category of evil from IVF that allows all these children to be basically victims of child abuse for the rest of their lives.

45:33

Right. Yeah. So those would be my thoughts. Just like educating and compassion of like,

45:42

Hey, we understand. We understand that, you know, the desire to want to have kids is

45:47

God given. I believe that's God given to want to have children. That's natural. But that doesn't justify the destruction, like you guys said, the sacrifice of other lives so that we could have one.

45:59

No, I agree. That's incredibly important stuff. And just like we have done with abortion to get so many

46:05

Christians involved at the clinics to save babies. We just filter what it is through the scriptures and through a biblical worldview, getting a proper understanding of it, educating, right?

46:18

Because it's a different animal than abortion, right? We would say primarily women are not victims, right?

46:25

They're not victims. They know what they're going to do. But I would say there's women that are being forced and just being in front of the mills.

46:32

I've seen them, you know, dudes, boyfriends, husbands, grandmas, forcing them, threatening them.

46:39

You will have this abortion. So I wouldn't put that woman in the realm of being a, not being a victim, right?

46:45

She was actually a victim of just coercion and manipulation, being forced to do something.

46:52

But by and large, yeah, women are not victims if they know what they're doing and they're just doing it freely.

46:59

They're using abortion as birth control. But with IVF, I wouldn't, you know, and this is,

47:06

I'm just getting, we're really getting into this conversation, right? This is not something that people really talk about.

47:13

So I can be corrected if you'd like to correct me with any of this. I'm really thinking my way through this, but it's really a matter of grabbing ahold of the scriptures and making sure we're filtering through all of this.

47:24

And then just starting a movement of getting Christians out there to save babies. But what I was getting to is, you know, there is a lot of women and couples that don't have a malicious intent to kill their babies.

47:36

They have the opposite. They just don't understand or, or they have not been enlightened to the fact that you're killing your other kids to have one kid.

47:44

Right. And that's not, that's not good. It's morally reprehensible. This is a wickedness, you know?

47:49

Yeah. Semper reformata, right? We should always be reforming our thoughts. Like even if we thought something was okay in the past, but now as, like you said, the scriptures shed light on different things in our lives and we walk through these things, we can reform our opinions.

48:04

Yeah. And God's used Marcus to reform, you know? Think about precepts, just apologetics in general with Psy, you know, there was a reformation and apologetics,

48:15

I think through Tony Miano too, and Bobby, reformation and street preaching, reformation and abortion.

48:22

And now, you know, it'd be totally understandable for God to be reforming in this realm too. Reformation in the realm of IVF and the

48:29

Christians now need to get out and start waging war against that and save babies. What do you think?

48:35

Yeah, it'll be good. I think it would be good because if you can get people angry about IVF, you get them angry about that makes them angry about plan

48:43

B and all the other birth control stuff. And so I think it's a needed fight that needs to happen.

48:50

And I don't think people ever would think about it without, you know, Laura's project and exposed and, and you know, bringing artists to be able to tell stories that way.

49:04

Yeah. That's the power of this art, right? Yeah. I mean, it does some amazing things. I mean, think about babies are murdered here, dude.

49:11

Think about that. How many babies are saved because of those two productions? We can't count them.

49:16

The power of art. We know it's in the thousands. For sure. So I'm excited.

49:21

I'm definitely going to start thinking on this. How can we as Apology be involved?

49:28

And I'm the, I'm the pastor of local outreach. How can we start saving babies at IVF? Yeah. Yeah. I'm so thankful for both of you and just the work that you do and you know, it's challenging.

49:37

I watched it and I was really like I had to think on it and pray about it. And I'm super thankful for this piece.

49:44

I think it's going to be a great conversation starter for a lot of people. I hope that it, I hope that it spreads like wildfire throughout the churches and lots of people begin talking about this because like you said, it's just really not talked about.

49:59

It really isn't. I think there's a lot of people that know about it, but a lot of people that do not. And like you said,

50:04

Laurie, you kind of grow up around it. You know, people that have done it, you know, people that have been born through it and you're just like,

50:09

Oh, okay. But as you peel back the layers, you go, Oh, wait a minute. There's something very wrong here.

50:17

So I'm very thankful for your guys' work. Well, we'll let you go.

50:22

Love you, man. Miss you and your wife. Well, before you go, let me just tell everybody to go to lord .tv and sign up for a subscription and get a free seven day trial.

50:31

Spend some loot and fund some projects. Yeah. You guys have been breaking records daily on yourselves, right?

50:38

Yeah. It's been awesome. It's been great. Just go there. If you haven't signed up yet, go ahead and sign up. It's lord .tv and it's 14 bucks a month, but you're spending that 14 bucks a month funding projects.

50:51

So it's like Costco. You got a subscription and you go in there and you fund other things. That's awesome.

50:58

Thankful for you, dude. Laura, where can we go to see your stuff,

51:03

Laura? Oh, just at choicefortwo .com. And yeah, this series is on Laura as well.

51:12

Awesome. That's awesome. You know what? I get really defensive when somebody calls it choice 42. I'm like, it's not choice 40.

51:20

I know. I know. But you guys think, thanks for having this conversation, honestly, because so far, not a lot of people are wanting to touch it.

51:30

And so I feel like this is a really good opportunity just like to, to get it out there initially besides people just seeing our video, but just for me to be able to explain things a little further just about everything.

51:43

So just, I really appreciate it and thanks for doing it. Yeah. The church is the pillar and the buttress of truth, right?

51:49

We teach the nations, right? Instruct the nations in the law of God. It's just time for us to sit down and really think about this and put our heads together to explain all this through the lens of scripture with, you know, illustrate it and just make it very teachable.

52:05

I think that's where we need to start is talking about this more in a very biblical way, in a very structured, robust way.

52:13

And in the wake of that teaching comes the orthopraxy, right? Comes the practice, comes the, okay, now we got to go do and we're going to do based upon what the scriptures say, allowing that to be, of course, our guide to our practice.

52:27

So I'm excited about this. So anyway, I appreciate you both. I appreciate your courage and your boldness, your sacrifice, everything you're doing for Jesus.

52:35

So we love you. And we'll look forward to talking to you guys again. Yeah. Any closing thoughts?

52:42

Yeah. I'm, I'm thinking about the, you think about the Christians who really started carrying the banner to end the slave trade, you know, hundreds of years ago,

52:52

Christians who started getting involved to fight against an end abortion. Think about those early stages of how much backlash and opposition and are you kidding me?

53:03

And why are you, why are you all up in arms about this issue? This is a societally accepted thing.

53:10

It's going to take a special kind of person. It's going to take a special kind of group of Christians to really carry the flag like this against something that is evil, but it's so accepted.

53:21

It's so it's just, it's just viewed as part of our culture, part of our society, even in Christian, you know, in the

53:29

Christian world, in the Christian mindset. So, uh, you know, who, who is that going to be?

53:35

You know, who, who's going to carry the, that flag forward to put an end to this and I'm excited to see where, what

53:41

God does with it. Yeah. Probably going to be us. I would just say if you're, you're listening and you're shook by this, like that's okay.

53:55

That's okay to be shook up by it and to like be really challenged by it. I think that's the point of the, the piece.

54:02

Um, but just start praying and ask God, you know, just to, to humble your heart. If you're, if it's something, sometimes

54:08

I think if we've participated in something or we know people that have, we get this like defensiveness, especially when it's something so emotional as having children and, but really

54:18

I would just, um, I would challenge you to really maybe watch it again, listen to Laura explain and do the research yourself, like look and see what really goes into IVF and, um, you know, allow yourself to be teachable.

54:32

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When it comes to abortion, we don't attack or hate the women that have had an abortion or going to have an abortion.

54:40

We don't do that. Right. We loving them. We lovingly, we lovingly teach them what the scriptures have to say about it, exposing the evil of the practice.

54:49

So we're not hating or attacking anybody that has, has done

54:54

IVF or is going to do that, but we will attack the practice. Of course, if the law and the word of God is designating it as evil and wicked and something abominable, which

55:05

I think it is. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, awesome show today.

55:11

I didn't know it was going to be this sweet, but this has been a really, really great one. Appreciate Laura and Marcus love them pray for their ministries.

55:19

Some awesome soldiers on the front lines and, um, you need to pray for them and support them.