Awesome: Pastor vs. Jehovah's Witnesses

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Your guys' stand here, too. And it looks like these are new, also. The ones that we grabbed. Where are you guys from?

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I'm from Phoenix. I'm a pastor. Zach's a pastor, and he's part of our church plant.

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We just wanted to ask you guys questions of Jehovah's Witnesses. We like to do interviews on what people believe, and different religious beliefs.

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How long have you been a Jehovah's Witness? Or, I should say both of you. Well, I was raised, but then

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I got baptized when I was 14. 14? And raised in a home where you guys were?

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I was raised by my parents, and they were Jehovah's Witnesses. But then I chose it for myself when I was 14.

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Okay. And you? I was saved. Grew up. 13.

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Okay. So around the same time. So you guys born and raised in Kauai? No.

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I grew up in California. Where in California? San Diego. Okay. Right on. When did you move here? A couple years ago.

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Okay. How old are you? 22. Okay. Right on. What brought you to Kauai? Just a change of pace.

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It's definitely that. Yeah. Get on my own feet. Right on.

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And how about you? I grew up here, but I was born in Cape Cod. In Cape Cod?

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And you moved to Kauai. That's a huge jump. What brought you guys out here?

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My dad liked to surf. Oh. So he would surf over there. So he moved us all out here to surf.

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Okay. All right on. But what made you make the decision to believe the

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Watchtower, Jehovah's Witnesses? What made you believe, okay, this is the truth? Why did you make that decision?

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For me, it was you can travel anywhere in the world and we all have the same belief. Okay. It's just a worldwide...

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So the unified doctrine for you. Okay. And how about you? I grew up going to the meetings that we have at the

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Kingdom Halls and just studying the Bible. Okay.

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All right. Well, that resonates with us because, I mean, we're Christians. So, I mean, hearing that Jehovah's Witnesses are people of the book, very serious about studying the scriptures, that's something

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I know that resonates with us really deeply. We see the Bible as our authority. It's how we know what we know.

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It's how we determine truth. It's how we test things. And so that always resonates with me when

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Jehovah's Witnesses say that. You know, this is scripture. That's the basis for why we believe what we believe.

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A lot of people don't think we believe in Jesus, but we do. I think that's like the most common misconception about that.

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So the difference would be in terms of you would disagree with the

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Orthodox Christian view of who Jesus is. You guys believe that Jesus is

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Michael the Archangel, the first and greatest creation of Jehovah God, correct? Yeah, we believe that he is

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God's son. Okay. And so you believe he was literally created? Yes. Okay.

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And so when you've accepted that view of Jesus, on what basis did you accept that that's the truth?

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That's what I believe about Jesus. Because it's a disagreement with Christians for 2 ,000 years.

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Yeah. And so Charles Taze Russell began the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, the organization in the 19th century.

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He came with a new version of Jesus. But why did you accept that? That Jesus was created rather than being the creator himself?

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Like, why do we believe that? Yeah. Reading the Bible, for me. Okay. Seeing it. That Jesus was created?

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Yeah, that he's God's son. If someone told me that, I'd have a really hard time believing that. And I don't think I would, but since I read it, then it's a lot that I do.

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And you guys read out of the New World Translation, correct? Okay. But we also have the

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King James Version downloaded on our... Especially when we go door -to -door, most people prefer the

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King James Version. Okay, interesting. So then we'll go back and talk. It's a blessing to have good access to all the translations.

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Yeah, it's a lot of work into it. Have you guys ever... I mean, you guys are super passionate, very zealous.

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I mean, most people don't believe strongly enough in what they believe to actually stand out on the beach...

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Right. ...and give up your time to try to love people, to share the truth with them. So I have a deep level of respect for that.

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But have you ever compared, say, the New World Translation and what it says about Jesus over against what, say, any other modern

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English translation would say about Jesus? For example, on the question of Jesus being a created being, the

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Bible teaches really plainly, and Christians have taught consistently for 2 ,000 years, that Jesus has eternally existed as God and that he created everything in existence.

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He's an uncreated being. Have you ever compared some of those passages, say, from the New World Translation with, say, the original

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Greek language or any modern English translation? Of the Bible? Yeah.

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Yeah. Okay. Okay. So just one question about that, because I think that's the core thing. I think you guys are more disciplined than many modern evangelicals professing

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Christians in terms of what you're willing to do and how you lay your lives down to love others and for what you believe.

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But if you look at, say, one example on that question, that fundamental question of Jesus, because we'd have so much in common in terms of a value of life, loving your neighbor as you love yourself.

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On those issues, we wouldn't disagree with each other. Yeah. But on core issues like who Jesus is and how you come to know

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God, we would have... And then you also believe that... Yeah.

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Correct. And that's another thing that was a little different with us. Yeah. So there is... When we talk to people, we try to focus on the common ground, more as the difference.

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Right. We all love our neighbor. Yeah. We all love Jesus. Yeah. And that's what we try to focus on and not step on anyone's toes or try to convert anyone, none of that.

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Yeah. So the main thing would not be the side issues, but the core of who is Jesus and how do

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I come to know God? That would be the big thing, right? And so, for example, in Colossians chapter 1, there's a good example in Scripture where all modern

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English translations would disagree with the New World Translation. In some ways.

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Okay. How are you doing? They would all disagree with the New World Translation. The New World Translation, let's say modern

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English translations would go off of the Greek texts, and they would say that by Him, Jesus, were all things created in heaven and on earth, whether visible or invisible.

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Thrones, dominions, rulers, or authorities, all things were created by Jesus. And that's what it says in Colossians 1.

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But the New World Translation actually inserts words into the text. It says all other things, that Jesus created all other things, whereas if you go back to the original

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Greek language and then pull from it and get into an English translation, it would say that Jesus created all things, but the

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New World Translation adds words all other things. So what about like John 3, 16, where God loved the world so much

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He gave His only begotten son? What does the Greek scripture say on that? So the only begotten doesn't mean in terms of order of creation, it means the unique and one of a kind.

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The unique and one of a kind son. Not begotten as though God was in a, like Mormons would teach that God had a physical, sexual relationship with Heavenly Mothers and even

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Mary. Early Mormon prophets and apostles taught that Heavenly Father had sex with Mary to produce

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Jesus, which is interesting because He created her in her pre -existence first. Yeah, definitely. But they would actually go the same way.

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It says begotten, so He had to have been created like us, but the word for begotten means unique and one of a kind.

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So He's the unique and one of a kind son of God, not created. And in John chapter 1, right before 3, it says in John 1, 1, in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was

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God. He was in the, it says He was, He created all things in existence and without Him nothing has come into being that has come into being.

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I know that's another example of where the New World Translation adds the word a -God. Yeah, the article.

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The article A, and changes actually what the original text says. So how would

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Jesus be with God if He was one in the same? Yeah. Like, I was,

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I wanted to be sent to Him.

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Very good question. Such an excellent question, and I think it's, one of the interesting things that I've struggled with, with my

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Jehovah's Witness friends and people I've loved and had relationships with, is the Watchtower has many times put out publications actually misrepresenting what

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Christians have taught about the Trinity for 2 ,000 years. Christians have never taught or believed that Jesus is the

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Father. We don't believe that the Holy Spirit is the Father or the Son. There are three co -equal, co -eternal persons,

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Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, one being of God. Like, you're a human being, right?

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But you're also one person, right? And you're a human being, but you're one person, but you're two different beings and two persons.

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What the Bible teaches is there's only one God. We would agree with that. Yeah. Right? And before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

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I'm the first, the last. Besides me there is no God. So there's only one being of God, but God doesn't exist like us.

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He's not a body of flesh and bone like Mormons teach. The Bible teaches that God is spirit.

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God is a different nature than us. And so God is one being, eternally existing as three persons.

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So it's a really great question. In John 1 where it says, in the beginning was the Word, and the

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Word was with God. He was, the word there in the Greek is prostanteon.

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And it's really a cool, it's like we're right now. You and I are in a face -to -face relationship right now. We're in, and this is a relationship of intimacy.

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And the Word there expresses that. He was with the Father. He was in intimate relationship with the

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Father from all eternity. And He was God, as to His nature, God. And I guess for us, how we talked about a moment ago, it's not about the side issues, the non -essentials.

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It really is about the essential issue of who is God. How do you come to know Him? Because I think that you and I, we would be on the same page if we looked at the

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Mormon view of Jesus. That's not your view of Jesus. That's a completely different Christ.

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And it matters because Jesus says, I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no man comes to the Father but by me. And we know in the first century that Paul actually confronts the issue of false

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Christs and other Jesuses in the first century. So it's not like it's a 19th century problem or 20th century problem only.

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It's a problem in the first century where people were actually teaching a different Christ, and those Christs can't save you.

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If it's a false Christ, like I don't believe the Mormon Jesus can save anybody. Do you believe the Mormon Jesus can save anybody?

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I'm not too familiar with the Mormon. They believe that...

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They would say that Jesus is the Son of God as well. Literally. Just like we would say Jesus is the

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Son of God, just like you would say that Jesus is the Son of God, but all three of us as three different groups mean completely different things when we use that terminology.

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So they mean that Jesus is Lucifer's brother, the offspring of Heavenly Father and one of his goddess wives, for example.

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They believe he's Satan's brother. We believe that God did create Satan, even though...

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We would agree with that. Yeah, same. We would agree with that completely. They believe that Jesus is Lucifer's...

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You just believe that Jesus created him. We believe, yes, Jesus created Satan. And do you believe in the King James Version, or are you just more...

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We think the King James is an excellent English translation. It's an old one. It's a couple hundred years old.

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We don't... Our language is kind of hard sometimes. But what we would say is if you want to know precision, you have to go back to the original

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Greek. We have over 5 ,700 Greek manuscript pieces and copies of the New Testament documents.

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And so if you collect all those and collate those and bring them all together, you can get to what the original

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Greek text said and translate from there. Which is also, I think for me, one of the main concerns, loving concerns

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I have for my Jehovah's Witness friends, is that if you look at the Greek texts, they disagree vastly with what the

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Watchtower, Bible and Tract Society, published as a translation. As a matter of fact, in many places, what the

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Watchtower has in the New World Translation doesn't exist in the Greek. It literally will turn a passage upside down.

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Like, for example, where it says Jesus created everything, it'll say Jesus created all other things.

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Because Jesus creating everything doesn't actually fit with the Watchtower theology about Jesus.

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Because we believe that he helped his God create things. And he was there in things.

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Right. Side by side. Yeah. Jesus is called a master worker. Right. Because he was side by side with his father.

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Right. To create all other things. To create everything. Right. Other than himself, God created.

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So do you believe, and you affirmed a minute ago, you believe in only one God. Yes. So you say you're monotheist.

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But you also believe in John 1 where it says Jesus was a God. Yeah. Is he a

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God? It's like...

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The eternal God. There's only one true, true

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God. That's what we believe. I agree. So what kind of God is Jesus? We believe that Jesus is

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Jehovah's son. So Jehovah's the top, and then Jesus is like a father and son figure.

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The father's obviously the head. And then... Because that's what we also believe. That Jesus is also the head.

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And then we have our Carnation elders. And then we have... What would you do with passages in the

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Bible that actually call Jesus Jehovah? No. You know the word

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Jehovah comes from the Hebrew word for Yahweh. Right. Yeah, the Tetragrammaton. Yeah, exactly.

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Exactly. And so in John, in John chapter 12, there's a quotation where John actually refers back to the passage in Isaiah 6.

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It's a famous scene. Most people know it. In Isaiah 6 where Isaiah gets this glimpse of the glory of God and the angels are there saying,

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Holy, holy, holy. Holy, holy, holy. And then Isaiah covers his mouth and says,

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I'm spoken to soon. No, so that's Job. Sorry. Isaiah says, I'm a man of unclean lips.

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I'm coming apart at the seams. That scene is Yahweh. It's Jehovah on his throne. But in John chapter 12 when that's quoted, he actually says that it was

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Jesus that Isaiah saw when he saw Yahweh. So it was

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Jehovah that was seen, but in John, John says that it was Jesus.

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Jesus is... I don't remember reading that, but I'll have to look it up later. Yeah, for sure. John chapter 12 would be a key thing.

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Yeah, I think just tossing out another example, I don't want to throw out too many things to shoot at at once, but in Hebrews chapter 1 also, when it's talking about the identity of Christ and that he is carrying all things along by the word of his power, by him

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God created all things. And then he's the one that... I can look it up right now. Oh, perfect.

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So he's the one that made purification for sins. He sat down at the right hand of the majesty on high. And then the writer of Hebrews goes into all these quotations,

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Old Testament quotations. Hebrews 1. I'm sorry. Yes, Hebrews chapter 1. Oh, it's the whole chapter.

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Well, pretty much the entire chapter. It's really amazing because what the author of Hebrews is doing is demonstrating that Jesus is vastly superior to angels, to prior mediators, to prior revelation.

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All of revelation, all of scriptural revelation finds its apex, its climax in him.

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Yeah. He says... You're right. He says he sat down at the right hand of the majesty so he became better than the angels.

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Right. What about for 3? He is the reflection of God's glory. Right. He is an exact representation of his very being.

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Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly right. So the word there in the original language has to do, the best picture to convey that is really the signet ring of a king.

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So a king would dip his ring in the signet and then he would stamp the letter to demonstrate that it bears his authority, of course.

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But what I was referring to in that passage, going down a little bit further, all of those quotations from the

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Old Testament, for example, one says, But to the Son, he says,

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Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

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And then moving on, it actually applies a specific quotation from Psalm 102, which talks about Jehovah being the one who is eternal, the one who created all things, the one who rolls up all of time and history and creation as a scroll.

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And it applies that passage in talking about Jesus. I think it's in technically chapter, yeah,

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I'm sorry, verses 11 and 12 is where it starts. So I just want to throw that out as another example of where Jesus is specifically, given the nature of Jehovah attributed to him from the

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Old Testament. Yeah, and it says, But of the Son, he says, Jehovah says, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.

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The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. You have hated wickedness, or sorry, you have loved righteousness and hated wickedness.

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Therefore God, calling Jesus God, your God has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.

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So here is. And then the next verse is really important because it says, And you, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning.

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So talking about Jesus himself creating. What translation is that? That's just, this is a, any modern

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English translation would have the same text. Okay. Yeah, so I would encourage you just to go, just to read Hebrews chapter one.

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Just check that out. And it's not to create a point of conflict between us, but just my encouragement is to look at that.

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Because what we would say, and we mean this with all the love and respect that we have for you, is that in the 19th century, there were a number of different religions that rose up, actually.

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Again, 1830, publication of the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith, an American prophet, gave us a new version of Jesus and a different way that we can know

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God and be saved. It was through not just what Jesus did, but our own obedience and our own righteousness.

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And the ultimate goal of Mormonism is to become a god and goddess of your own planet one day. That's eternal life, ultimately.

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Joseph Smith said that. He said eternal life was to become a god of your own planet one day. And that was what he said.

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But he used the same words as us. If we sat down for coffee, no, not coffee with a Mormon, sorry, hot chocolate with a

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Mormon. If we sat down for hot chocolate with a Mormon, we would all be saying Jesus, we'd all be saying

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Heavenly Father, we'd all be saying Bible, but we would all be talking about a different god and a different gospel. And in the 19th century,

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Charles Taze Russell, and then after that, moving into Judge Rutherford, we would argue they gave us another version of Jesus and another gospel.

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We would say it's not a god that can save and it's not a gospel that can save. And we don't mean that to be insulting to you at all.

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We mean that in terms of, we can show even from the Watchtower's publications that we're condemned because of what we teach about Jesus.

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And our gospel is a false gospel, according to the Watchtower. So the question is, is which gospel is true? Because in Galatians chapter 1, the

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Apostle Paul is dealing with a false gospel in the first century. They were saying Jesus, they were saying

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Heavenly Father, they were saying salvation, cross, resurrection, all that stuff, same stuff. And he says that it's a different gospel.

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And he says if he, or any of the apostles, or an angel came from heaven and preached any other gospel, let them be anathema, eternally condemned forever.

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And you know what they were teaching? They were saying yes, Jesus is God, yes he rose again from the dead, all that's true, the

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Bible is the word of God, we stand on that. They were saying this, if you don't keep this one aspect of the

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Jewish law, circumcision, if you don't at least keep that sign of the covenant, at least keep that, plus faith in Jesus, then you're not saved.

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And Paul says this, you have become estranged from Christ, severed from him. Whosoever of you attempts to be justified by the law, you've fallen from grace.

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So he says it's either faith in Christ alone, and what he's accomplished as a gift to you, or you must now go under the law and actually fulfill all of it.

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Which is terrifying, because... How you doing? Yeah, James says whoever keeps the whole law, and yet offends in one point, is guilty of breaking all of it.

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Right. So the message that we would have for you is number one, we love you, truly, we care about you deeply, we respect you deeply, and I mean that sincerely, to women who love your neighbor so much that you're dedicating your lives to doing this.

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We would say that this is not the true gospel, and that you have a different version of Jesus, but we want you to know the true

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Christ, the one who has lived from all eternity in relationship with the Father, who created all things,

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God who became man, and that salvation is a gift of God's grace through faith in Jesus. When you turn from sin to trust in him, you get his righteousness, and he takes your sin.

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So you respect us, right? Yes. So you respect our beliefs, that we believe that Jehovah is

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God. And that Jesus is Son. Well, we don't respect that belief. We understand that you believe it.

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But you respect us. We respect you. Yes, absolutely. We respect you both.

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We would say that if anybody believes in a false Christ, including us, we have a

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Christ that cannot save. It has no existence. But Jesus is the only way to peace with God. That's what he taught.

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We would agree with that, I think. Right? You guys would acknowledge that. Yeah. A lot of modern...

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Influences and things like that. It's changed the way a lot of people even talk, even as Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons or Christians, about that.

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Like, no, everyone's fine. It's like, no, Jesus said he was the only way to God. Yeah. But the question is, which

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Jesus? Because there are so many different Jesus. If we lined a Muslim up here with a Mormon and a

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Jehovah's Witness and a Christian, the Muslim would say that Jesus Christ did not die on a cross for sins and didn't rise from the dead, but they believe in Jesus.

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That Jesus can't save. A Mormon would say, Jesus Christ is the offspring of one of Heavenly Mother's and Heavenly Father having sex, producing

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Jesus. He's Lucifer's brother. Mormon prophets and apostles sometimes taught that Jesus was a polygamist while he was on Earth.

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He became a god one day, and your goal is to become a god and goddess of your own planet. The Jehovah's Witness would say,

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Jehovah is the Almighty God, and Jesus is the second. Right? Underneath Jehovah.

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And that ultimately, your works end up being your salvation. Like, how you obey

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God determines whether or not you'll be one of the 144 ,000, ultimately. Well, we believe that we're not part of the 144 ,000, her and I.

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I know, I know. But ultimately, our works and our obedience determines whether or not we're among the class of 144 ,000 or those who will be in Paradise on Earth.

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Right? It's based not on what Christ did, but on your obedience. Oh no, it's definitely what Christ did. Alone? Alone.

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If it wasn't for God sending, like the scripture said, gave the world a finally begotten Son, for Him dying for us, we would not be able to live forever or be part of the 144 ,000, or whatever.

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So we believe that as God's gift was the ransom, He could have chosen not to.

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He could have, once He was sent down. Yeah, even though He was perfect, He still had free will, like we all do.

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Just like Adam and Eve, perfect, free will. Yeah, He could have totally not followed ransom or beanie.

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Yeah. But you believe that ultimately, your relationship with God is based upon, of course, your faith in Jesus, but also based upon your works and your obedience.

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Yes. Yes. And so we would say that's a different gospel. And all

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I would do is just I would challenge you to do this. It doesn't have to be in this moment. I would just challenge you to do this. Go read

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Romans chapters 3, 4, and 5. Just those three. Romans 3, 4, and 5.

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And Hebrews 1. Go read those passages in a regular English translation and just look and see, is the gospel that I believe in, does it match this?

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Is the Jesus I'm believing in, does it match this? And I think we would all agree on this.

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And this is no way to be prideful or haughty is that all of us are influenced by our culture, we're influenced by our communities, we're influenced by our traditions, right?

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All of us have to come to grips with the fact that God has spoken and I need to see what He says, not what somebody else has told me or what

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I've thought is true. I need to be willing to be changed. And I'm saying that for me too. I've got to be challenged by God's revelation.

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And I think we have to recognize that Charles Taze Russell and the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society came much farther past where Christ had come and His church was moving through history, preaching the gospel.

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And His claims about Jesus and the gospel need to be tested by God's revelation, not by our feelings, not by our community, not by our traditions or comforts, but on what does

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God say. And that's all I would say to you is just go look at Romans 3, 4, and 5 and Hebrews 1 in a

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Bible and all I'm saying is just test it. Test what you believe by Scripture and just see what it says.

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I think it's great to ask questions and reason. That's what we're taught still. Yeah, exactly.

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So that people can come up to us to throw you off the cart so we're not bothering people at their houses all the time.

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As much as I enjoy that. Not everyone does. I love when you do because I love you guys. I just had someone at my door a month ago.

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So yeah, we had a great conversation. I know that it bothers some people because we do a lot of evangelism outreach too.

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Some people are like, I don't want to talk to you. Well, we love you. So I see Jehovah's Witnesses spending their Saturdays where they could be out swimming or with their family going to knock on doors and to go talk to people.

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I have a deep level of respect for that kind of commitment and love for me. And love for me. I think it's a false gospel but I still respect you and love you and I have a very, very

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A very, very, a very, very deep level of respect and commitment of my heart to you as a people because of your zeal.

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So my name is Jeff again, by the way. Kamiley. Kamiley and... Rochelle. What does your name mean,

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Kamiley? It's a flower. Okay. Alright. Very pretty. It's a beautiful name. What is the purpose in all this?

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Just out of curiosity. Well, what we like to show is that Jehovah's Witnesses, Christians, can have loving, respectful dialogue with each other about what we believe.

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And that we can actually break down the walls between our community to actually have relationships. That we have love and concern for each other.

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That it doesn't have to be a war and about fighting and nastiness but we can actually talk and have a respectful dialogue with each other about what we believe.

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So is it a personal interview that you keep yourself or that you're going to show... Well, we have...

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We have channels dedicated to showing that as communities we can actually dialogue with love and respect and let each other tell what we believe.

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So rather than trying to make somebody look bad or something like that but just to show that we can listen to what each other says about Jesus, the

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Gospel, and we can converse and talk. And I think you guys did a wonderful job of expressing your beliefs and doing it with love and with gentleness.

28:39

And we think it's good because then it gets people an opportunity to actually be able to listen to one another. Yeah. And it shows both sides that it is possible to come together in this way.

28:50

That's a big part of our meetings too is just to train on how to talk to people with respect. Right.

28:55

It's not something that comes naturally. Right, exactly. It's not like it's all on purpose. Because we're all sinners and prideful.

29:01

And if at any point Christians are to engage in that kind of behavior we would call out our own and say, that's not respectful.

29:07

That's not how Christ That's not how we're supposed to love each other. That is not how Christ called us to do this. That's right. You guys really blessed us today.

29:14

Yeah, thank you. Tremendously. I hope to see you guys again. I was not expecting this. I know, I know. We appreciate the time very, very much.

29:21

So I'm sure at a small island we'll probably see each other again. Yeah, for sure. How long are you guys here for? We're here all the time.

29:27

He's going to be living here. Yeah, soon. So I've come here off and on for the last goodness, two or three years now.

29:33

Yes. And so, yeah, I'll be taking up residence here later this year. Cool. Very nice.

29:39

You're all from Phoenix? Yeah, from Phoenix. Yep. Born and raised. That's right. That's right. So it'll be a change.

29:46

It'll be a radical change. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Not as big of a change as Cape Cod.

29:53

I was so little, I don't even remember the change at all. Yeah, it's pretty awful weather there. It really is.

29:59

You said your dad used to surf? Yeah, he'd surf in the winter. In the winter? That's the time the waves were actually big.

30:05

Oh, man. Your dad might be a little bit crazy. He is. Like a thermal wetsuit, right?

30:11

Oh, my gosh. Yeah, that's amazing. I can't even imagine that. Wow. All right, God bless you guys. Okay, thanks for talking with us. Thank you.