July 15, 2024 Show with Jared K Henry on “We Cannot Remain Silent: One Nazarene Pastor Calls Upon Leaders of the Nazarene Theological Seminary to Repent of their Pro-LGBTQ+ Stance

Iron Sharpens Iron

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:03

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

00:11

George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

00:16

Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

00:23

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

00:31

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

00:38

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

00:50

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

00:58

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

01:09

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

01:15

Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

01:21

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 15th day of July, 2024.

01:30

This is a historic day, as today, just moments before we went live,

01:36

Donald Trump announced who is going to be his vice presidential running mate in the 2024 election for the presidency of the

01:48

United States, and that is J .D. Vance, and it will be interesting to see how things develop in the future.

01:57

Also, this is the first live broadcast since the failed assassination attempt against Donald Trump, which took place on Saturday during a rally in Butler, Pennsylvania, not very far from where I am right now.

02:19

And we thank the Lord that this was a failed assassination attempt, but tragically and horrifically, a very brave, courageous young man, husband and father, was murdered while he was covering his wife and daughter, protecting them from the gunfire, and that ended his life, and that hero is

02:53

Corey Comperatore. And we ask of you to pray for the

02:59

Comperatore family, especially as they are in the midst of very deep grieving and mourning over the loss of such a very special husband and father, and I'm sure that we will begin to learn more and more about this hero who lost his life in such a senseless and tragic and horrific way.

03:28

So please keep praying for the Comperatore family, and I hope that the story of this hero does not get lost in all of the excitement and buzz over the

03:44

Republican Party National Convention and all that will be taking place during this presidential race in the future.

03:53

We have to keep the memory of Corey Comperatore alive. Well, today we have a first -time guest.

04:02

There is something that occurred not long ago. Well, at least it became news to me very recently.

04:13

It may not have been news to others in the Church of the Nazarene denomination, but I must confess that I have been out of the loop when it comes to the denomination known as the

04:28

Church of the Nazarene. I had always known that it was a

04:34

Wesleyan -Arminian denomination, unlike myself, who is a thoroughgoing five -point

04:40

Calvinist and Reformed Baptist. But I had always thought that this denomination was a very strong denomination, adhering to biblical inerrancy, conservative in its views of biblical morality and so on, evangelical.

05:05

So it became a shock to me that the faculty at the

05:12

Nazarene Theological Seminary had become pro -LGBTQ+.

05:19

I'm not stating with certainty that every member of that faculty is leaning that way in that apostate, anti -biblical, anti -Christian direction, but we'll find out more about that.

05:36

Today we have as our guest for the very first time Jared K. Henry, lead pastor at Mackey Church of the

05:45

Nazarene in Oakland City, Indiana, and he is also the president at the

05:53

Holiness Partnership, and we'll find out more about that. And we are going to be discussing—we cannot remain silent—one

06:02

Nazarene pastor calls upon leaders of the Nazarene Theological Seminary to repent of their pro -LGBTQ -plus stance.

06:11

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Trump and Zion Radio, Pastor Jared K.

06:18

Henry. Thank you so much for having me, brother. It's a joy to have you on, and please let our listeners know something about Mackey Church of the

06:30

Nazarene in Oakland City, Indiana. Mackey Church is over 100 years old.

06:37

They started in 1919 from an evangelist who set up a tent in the area and preached, and I think the second year he was there, there was a group of people who said,

06:48

We want to start a church, and that's how it began. Over 100 years ago, we're going to celebrate our 105th anniversary, actually, this fall of 2024.

06:59

So it's been around for a while, and we're actually in Mackey.

07:05

The address you have probably is Oakland City, but we're actually in a little small place called Mackey, and the population of Mackey is about 135 people.

07:15

However, we have over 400 people who are a part of our church. We're a multi -site church now, so our main campus is in Mackey, and then on the other side of the county, we also have a campus in Owensville, Indiana, and then recently, we've united with—we have a campus that's outside of Orlando that is led by a campus pastor,

07:36

Alex Hilaire. So we're into some neat things and trying to be salt and light and with the good news, the gospel message to the world.

07:48

And I'm assuming I was correct that as far as a theological identity, you would be a

07:56

Wesleyan -Arminian congregation and denomination? Yeah, Wesleyan -Arminian.

08:01

So we are part of the Church of the Nazarenes, kind of a part of the holiness movement of the mid -to -late 1800s, with really a desire to see people born again, but then also to go on into living a holy life, that being a

08:18

Christian is more than just entitled. There's actually a radical transformation that takes place, not just behavior modification, but we believe

08:28

God can cleanse and change your heart as well and make you holy through and through.

08:33

Yes, there is one thing that during the tension that exists between Calvinists such as myself and Wesleyan -Arminians such as you, very often what is lost is the strong, very strong agreement that both camps have in their opposition to what has been known as—become known as easy believism and cheap grace, this very dangerous teaching that somebody could have absolute and complete confidence that they will enter heaven one day just because at one time in their past they raised their hand at a revival meeting or a church service or went forward at that meeting and recited a prayer and then went home to live exactly as they did before that event and committed to serving the devil their whole lives, the world of flesh and the devil, and that person is told that they are to have complete and utter confidence that they are saved and that they are born again and that they are going to heaven and that nobody should tell them otherwise.

09:50

And both thoroughgoing Five -Point Calvinists and Wesleyan -Arminians do agree on that, that is a very dangerous and false teaching and doesn't even have a long history in the church either.

10:07

Yeah, yeah, I think I'm not—I know this much about John Calvin. He was pretty serious about living a life differently because Jesus is

10:18

Lord and through the power of God in your life. So yeah, I would agree. Dietrich Bonhoeffer talked about that in his book.

10:24

He talks a lot about cheap grace and the cost of discipleship. I think he coined the phrase, actually.

10:31

Yeah, it was good. Well, if anybody wants more information about the

10:38

Mackay Church of the Nazarene, you can go to MackayNaz .org, M -A -C -K -E -Y -N -A -Z .org.

10:48

And now let's hear a little something about the Holiness Partnership. Yeah, so the

10:54

Holiness Partnership has been around just not even for five years, just maybe three or four years now. Primarily Nazarene pastors who are looking around and watching the influence of culture and other things, even on the church.

11:12

We believe that the church should be salt and light to the world, and that means that the people who've been born again,

11:19

God's people, should impact the world in positive ways rather than the world impacting the church and pushing the church to accept worldly morals or ethics.

11:36

And so as we looked at all of the things that are going on in the life of the church of the

11:41

Nazarene, yes, but the broader holiness movement and then the broader evangelicalism, there's a lot of confusion.

11:50

And it's because the people are raised in this culture that is antithetical to biblical truth,

11:59

Christian morality, holy living, all of those kinds of things. And what's the answer to what's the response?

12:06

So there's a lot of people out there who are saying, this is the problem, this is the problem. But it's easy to be a critic.

12:13

It's easy to diagnose a problem, but it's a lot more difficult to find the solution.

12:18

And so we just met, had time of prayer, really sought the Lord and determined that we felt like part of the problem is that this message that God calls us to be holy as He is holy.

12:33

And whatever God calls you to do, He will empower you to do. It's not a carrot on a stick.

12:39

It can be a reality through the power of the Holy Spirit that you can experience the cleansing work of the

12:46

Holy Spirit in your life and walk in that. And if believers continue to pursue that calling of God, that really will be the answer.

12:57

We won't have the problems of people adopting cultural narratives if the

13:02

Spirit has made their heart pure and they've been given the mind of Christ, for example.

13:07

And so we want to reclaim biblical holiness and resource the church to be faithful and fruitful.

13:17

So there's some people who are faithful to the truth, but they're not faithful to the

13:22

Great Commission. And I think you can be faithful to biblical truth and be fruitful in that faithful position.

13:30

You don't have to choose to be faithful or fruitful, but you could be both. And so that's kind of where we're coming from, and we want to resource the church.

13:38

We have gatherings annually. We're looking at some other things, ways that we can really be a blessing to local churches and ministries, laypeople and clergy alike.

13:49

And if anybody wants more details on the Holiness Partnership, go to theholinesspartnership .com.

13:58

theholinesspartnership .com. theholinesspartnership .com. I think

14:03

I flubbed there. I missed it. Yeah, that's all right. And just another clarification, the

14:12

Holiness Movement does seem to have different branches, especially that began to be more noticeable and prominent in the early 20th century.

14:29

And that would be the Holiness Movement that would be from a more cessationist wing that does not believe that the sign gifts of speaking in tongues and healing and things like that, although every

14:48

Christian, I'm sure, believes that God heals today. But as far as the gift to a human being of healing, there is the branch that believes, just like many, if not most

15:04

Calvinists, that those gifts ceased with the apostles. And then there's the other branch that are typically aligned with the old school

15:13

Pentecostals, not necessarily the broader Charismatic Movement, but the old school Pentecostals who claim to be holiness churches.

15:22

Now, where would the folks in the

15:28

Holiness Partnership align themselves? Perhaps it's both. I don't know. Yeah, there may be some of both who would kind of say, yeah, we like the

15:38

Holiness Partnership, so I could speak for myself on this. And I would say that I would not consider myself a cessationist, but I would consider that I don't agree with Pentecostal definitions of gifts.

15:56

And what I mean by that is when I see the gift of tongues in the New Testament, I don't see a people standing and speaking erratically, verbalizing things that are nonsensical to the listener, except for one person who will get up and clarify.

16:16

In other words, let me say it this way. I see the gift of tongues as something that eliminates linguistical barriers to the gospel being proclaimed.

16:25

It does not create barriers. And so I would disagree with Pentecostals simply on the definition of the gift of tongues.

16:33

I think that gift would be given in a context that would be maybe multi -linguistic and necessary to overcome language barriers.

16:44

It wouldn't be a gift given in a context where everyone speaks English anyway. Why do we need—why would

16:50

God give a gift that isn't necessary? You know, all the gifts ultimately are for the glorification of Christ.

16:56

And so if it causes confusion, it's not helpful. So I don't know where that puts me exactly.

17:02

I do believe that there are places and times where, even post the book of Acts, where that gift would be appropriate and that gift would be given like the gift of tongues, but to overcome language barrier, not to create it.

17:18

Is that fair? Does that make sense? Yes, I'm assuming what you mean is there are a number of theologically reformed

17:27

Christians who also take the position that they believe that most of what is identified today as signed gifts are not biblical and therefore not real.

17:40

Not that the people practicing them are necessarily faking intentionally, but they have been deceived somehow to think what they are doing is a

17:55

Holy Spirit gift. But you don't want to go as far as calling yourself an absolute cessationist because you don't want to, as many say, put

18:06

God in a box where he may do something in regard to those supernatural gifts, and you don't want to just rule that out completely.

18:19

Also, I don't read in the New Testament any kind of expiration date. It feels imposed upon the book of Acts or the

18:28

New Testament that those gifts would cease necessarily. Here's the other thing.

18:36

Some of those gifts we tend to make, not all of us, but there are some people who tend to so emphasize those gifts they forget about the giver.

18:47

I want my focus to always remain on the giver. Like you had mentioned, I believe in healing, and I believe that there are some people who may very well be able to pray for those who are sick and they have a gift in that kind of a way.

19:03

I don't have a problem with that at all. I have a problem when they try to monetize that, or I have a problem when that becomes a show or that becomes the focus.

19:17

But we pray in our church with somebody sick. If somebody's going into surgery, whatever, we pray for them.

19:24

We anoint them with oil, and we trust that God hears our prayers on those. So that's not always maybe necessarily the gift of healing.

19:32

So I do believe in gifts. I just don't make that—that's not the focus of our ministry, and I also reject those who

19:40

I think misdefine them, as you mentioned. Yes, and I agree with having the elders called upon to lay hands on a sick member and anoint them with oil and pray over them.

19:54

In fact, when my mother was dying in 1995 of pancreatic cancer and she was visiting

20:03

Sloan Kettering for a checkup, I asked a dear friend of mine who is now in eternity with my mother and infinitely more important than that with Christ, Pete Padro, he was a pastor at the time of Church of the

20:20

Good Neighbor, the oldest Spanish -speaking Protestant church in New York, which had bilingual services.

20:30

But I took—actually, Pete came to my brother

20:35

Bob's apartment where he was living at the time in Manhattan, and he prayed over my mom and anointed her with oil, and the

20:43

Lord did not choose in His infinite wisdom to heal my mother physically at that time, but I know with certainty that she is completely healed now because she is in glory with Christ.

20:55

So that was my hope, but God's ways are not our ways.

21:02

But we have to go to our first commercial break, and if anybody has a question of your own, submit it to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com,

21:13

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, city and state of residence, and country of residence if you live outside of the

21:26

USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

21:31

Let's say you are a member of a church that is promoting homosexuality, and you are very opposed to this, and you're not ready at this point right now to make your identity known.

21:48

I can understand something like that. Maybe you're even struggling with the sin of homosexuality, or maybe you are just a totally pro -homosexual person.

22:00

Maybe you are involved in that activity, and you're proud of it, and you adamantly, vehemently, radically disagree with what we're saying, but you don't want to reveal your identity.

22:12

Things like that, we would understand that you'd want to remain anonymous, but if you're just asking a general question, give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

22:21

Please don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages. I'm Pastor Keith Allen of Lynnbrook Baptist Church, a

22:43

Christ -centered, gospel -driven church looking to spread the gospel in the southwest portion of Long Island, New York, and play our role in fulfilling the

22:51

Great Commission, supporting and sending for the spread of the gospel to the ends of the earth. We're delighted to be a part of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio advertising family.

23:02

At Lynnbrook Baptist Church, we believe the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the inspired

23:07

Word of God, inherent in the original writings, complete as the revelation of God's will for salvation and the supreme and final authority in all matters to which they speak.

23:19

We believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. This salvation is based upon the sovereign grace of God, was purchased by Christ on the cross, and is received through faith alone, apart from any human merit, works, or ritual.

23:36

Salvation in Christ also results in righteous living, good works, and appropriate respect and concern to all who bear

23:44

God's image. If you live near Lynnbrook, Long Island, or if you're just passing through on the

23:49

Lord's Day, we'd love to have you come and join us in worship. For details, visit lynnbrookbaptist .org.

23:56

That's l -y -n -brookbaptist .org. This is Pastor Keith Allen of Lynnbrook Baptist Church reminding you that by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves.

24:08

It is the gift of God, not a result of words, so that no one may boast of the

24:15

Lord's blessing and the knowledge of Himself. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

24:24

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

24:32

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.

24:38

I'm Pastor Nate Pickowitz of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Ironworks, New Hampshire, and the

24:43

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and the

24:51

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Sule Prince of Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and the

25:01

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor John Sampson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, and the

25:08

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck Volo of New Life Community Church in Kingsville, Maryland, and the

25:16

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Steve Herford of Eastport Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Florida, and the

25:24

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Roy Owens Jr. of the

25:29

Church in Friendship in Hockley, Texas, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

25:35

Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart?

25:44

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB. And tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnson on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

25:53

Go to nasbible .com, that's nasbible .com to place your order.

26:02

Hello, I'm Phil Johnson, Executive Director of Grace to You with John MacArthur. I've been a frequent guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I highly recommend this show.

26:12

But today I want to tell you about one of its advertisers, Rare Document Traders.

26:17

Far and away my favorite source for quality Charles Spurgeon memorabilia. Are you looking for that special, unique gift for your pastor or missionary friend, or a loved one?

26:28

Why not purchase a piece of church history that any believer would cherish? Rare Document Traders is your one -step source for Spurgeon's handwritten manuscripts and letters, as well as other rare books and collectible items from church history.

26:41

In 15 years that they've been in business, they've earned a stellar reputation in the Reformed community with thousands of satisfied customers all around the world, including me.

26:51

Visit raredoctraders .com today. That's raredoctraders .com.

26:57

Don't forget to mention you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. That's raredoctraders .com.

27:12

I'm Pastor Bill Shishko of The Haven, an Orthodox Presbyterian church in Comac, Long Island.

27:19

I hold the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio program hosted by my long -time friend and brother,

27:25

Chris Arnson, in the highest esteem, and I'm thrilled that you're listening today. I'm also delighted that Iron Sharpens Iron is partnering with one of my favorite resources for Reformed Christian literature for decades now,

27:40

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. Well, with the economic nightmare that we're all currently enduring, cvbbs .com,

27:52

I want to enable you to build a wonderful personal library of the best literature that the

27:57

Reformers, the Puritans, and the great Christian minds of today have to offer, and at affordable prices.

28:05

Not only does cvbbs .com offer up to 50 % off retail prices, but you'll get an added 5 % off orders of $50 or more by using promo code

28:20

IRON, I -R -O -N, an added 5 % off all of your orders of $50 or more from Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

28:33

That's cvbbs .com, making the joy of reading the finest in Christian literature more affordable.

28:41

Oh, and make sure that you tell them you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron radio.

29:02

Greetings, this is Brian McLaughlin, president of the SecureComm group, and supporter of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron radio program.

29:13

SecureComm provides the highest level of security systems for residential buildings, municipalities, churches, commercial properties, and much more.

29:24

We can be reached at securecommgroup .com, that's securecommgroup .com.

29:33

But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.

29:47

Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.

29:54

In the film, Chariots of Fire, the Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt

29:59

God's pleasure when he ran. He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God.

30:06

I sensed that same God -given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.

30:13

That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a savior who died for sinners and that God forgives all who come to him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.

30:25

I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the

30:33

Bronx in New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com,

30:42

that's nhpbc .com. You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672, that's 516 -352 -9672, that's

30:57

New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.

31:10

We here at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio praise

31:27

God for the generous monthly financial support of Royal Diadem Jewelers, educated by and affiliated with the

31:35

American Gem Society, Jewelers of America and the Gemological Institute of America, for the perfect custom -designed engagement ring or any one -of -a -kind piece of jewelry created exactly according to your imagination and specifications,

31:52

Royal Diadem Jewelers has you covered. No matter where you live in the world, Royal Diadem will walk you step -by -step through every stage of the process and even hold a high -tech internet virtual visit using state -of -the -art jewelry design technology to serve you.

32:09

They start by listening carefully to determine your needs. They're interested in making what you want, not what they want to sell you.

32:17

From rough design to digital model, to photo realistic image, to wax prototype model, to the finished product, they're continually listening to your input, likes and dislikes, making any changes necessary along the way.

32:32

This will ensure that your custom jewelry will turn out exactly as you dreamed and well beyond your expectations.

32:40

Visit royaldiadem .com, that's royaldiadem .com today.

32:47

Sterling Vanderwercker, owner of Royal Diadem Jewelers, his wife Bronnie, his business partner and manager

32:53

Brian Wilson, and the entire family thank you all for listening to, praying for, and supporting the work of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

33:06

And don't forget folks, in addition to the monthly financial support that royaldiadem .com

33:15

already automatically provides to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, on top of that they are giving us this mind -blowing offer.

33:25

They are giving us 100 % of the profits from any sale of jewelry to an

33:30

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener simply by that listener mentioning Iron Sharpens Iron Radio when they purchase their jewelry at royaldiadem .com.

33:40

Whether you are purchasing jewelry that they already have in stock at royaldiadem .com or if you're having a one -of -a -kind customized piece of jewelry created, whatever the case may be, whether you're purchasing it for yourself or someone you love, if you mention

33:55

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio we will get 100 % of the profits from that sale on top of the financial support they already provide.

34:04

So I'm asking you if you have any interest in purchasing jewelry for yourself or someone you love that you go to royaldiadem .com

34:12

today to at least get the ball rolling on your purchase. Even if you're not making your final purchase today, please at least go to royaldiadem .com

34:22

today to start the ball rolling and mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. The reason being that we have no idea when royaldiadem .com

34:29

is going to pull the plug on this offer where we get 100 % of the profits from any sale of jewelry to our listeners who mention

34:37

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. So go to royaldiadem .com today and mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

34:44

We're now back and we're having a fascinating discussion with my first -time guest pastor of Mackey Church of the

34:55

Nazarene in Mackey, Indiana and his name is

35:02

Pastor Jarrett K. Henry and we are discussing, we cannot remain silent, one

35:09

Nazarene pastor calls upon the leaders of the Nazarene Theological Seminary to repent of their pro -LGBTQ stance and if you have a question send it to chrisarnson at gmail .com

35:22

give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence. But as I informed you before the program started we have a tradition here on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio whenever we have a first -time guest we have that guest before we get into the thick of things with the main theme that we have publicized as our primary topic before that we have our first -time guest give a summary of their salvation testimony which would include a religious atmosphere in which they were raised if any and what kind of providential circumstances our sovereign lord raised up in their lives that drew them to himself and saved them so I'd love to hear your story.

36:06

Yeah so I was raised in a Christian home on my my dad was actually agnostic when he became a

36:16

Christian but and then married my mom that she was serving the lord from from a young age and so I was born into this

36:25

Christian home and raised my dad felt a call to ministry so he was pursuing a call to pastoral ministry and while he was in seminary we attended a

36:41

Nazarene church in Lexington Kentucky and during a fall revival at that church

36:46

I don't remember who the special speaker was the evangelist but I do remember

36:52

I'd asked my mom if I could take a book of mazes like you work a maze you know and as a kid and she had told me

37:00

I was eight years old she said I think you're old enough you need to pay attention to what's being said and so being the the obedient child that I was

37:08

I just put the book of mazes under my shirt and took it to church with me anyway and when

37:14

I got to church I sat down at the far end of the pew away from my parents and and got that book out and put it down on the pew beside me so hopefully they couldn't see it and I don't

37:25

I didn't pay attention to the singing to the prayer to the preaching

37:31

I wasn't really paying attention but as I stood at the end of the service I felt the holy spirit convict me of my sins and I knew that I was not in right standing with God I was eight years old and and stepped out from that pew and went down to the altar people prayed with me and I made

37:49

Jesus the Lord of my life and God just transformed it was a pivotal point in my life everything was different from that point forward so when

37:59

I was born again so from an early age I began to walk with God at eight years of age and and then when

38:06

I was when I graduated from high school I'd kind of been I didn't tell

38:11

God no but I hadn't really told him yes I felt he I had a sense that his spirit was calling me to be a pastor as well and I think that my aversion to that was because my own father had been a pastor and for whatever reason

38:25

I felt I felt like you know I don't want to do that I want to go make money I even told God one time I said look I've got a better deal for you

38:31

I will pay double tithe and do whatever you want me to do if I'm if I can go and be a doctor a medical doctor which there's no problem with being a medical doctor unless God's called you to pastoral ministry and so the the summer after my senior year of high school when

38:51

I grew after I graduated from high school I accepted that call I just fully committed to the

38:58

Lord at that point in his call in my life and and then pursued that call and I found you know there's a time where the enemy can try to convince you that serving

39:08

Jesus is painful and terrible and all these kinds of things and there will be costs to following Jesus no doubt but there's a joy in doing exactly what

39:19

God's called you to do and I have found that joy in serving the one whom

39:24

I love. Amen. One thing I forgot to ask you but I was almost certain and I am almost certain that the

39:34

Church of the Nazarene is a credo Baptist denomination in that you only baptize believers.

39:42

Is that the case or am I wrong on that? You know there there are there is provision in our articles of faith for young children to be baptized so when when you say young children that that can be interpreted in many different ways.

39:59

So must they be of an age where they can demonstrate faith and repentance?

40:06

Well I believe so. I believe that you need to be born again believer baptism.

40:13

However there are some who have baptized even infants. Oh really? And yeah yeah there are it it it doesn't happen often but it's kind of become in some circles a more popular thing but I've never baptized an infant.

40:30

I don't know many pastors who have. I do know a few and it's it's kind of from our heritage that goes back through the

40:39

Methodist church to the Anglican church and right I think it's it's kind of that it's a holdover of that heritage.

40:46

Yeah. Are you an alumni of the Nazarene Theological Seminary?

40:54

No I attended I went I started college at Asbury College and then transferred to Trevecca Nazarene University in Nashville Tennessee and then

41:05

I also have attended Asbury Theological Seminary but I've not attended

41:11

Nazarene Theological Seminary. And is Asbury that's a Pentecostal college is it not? No Asbury is actually it's non -denominational but its roots are in Methodism.

41:23

Okay. So yeah so it's a Wesleyan Armenian seminary as well.

41:28

Okay so when did you begin to discover when alarm bells started going off that there is something rotten in the state of Denmark and I'm talking about Nazarene Theological Seminary where you noticed that there was an unbiblical attitude and softness towards or affirmation of what has been what has become known as the

41:56

LGBTQ community I reject calling them a community it is a damnable and unnatural sin a sin that people can be given the gift of repentance from and who have repented from that and as the scriptures are even clearer some of you once were these things and I've even interviewed a number of people on this program that fit somewhere in the so -called

42:31

LGBTQ acronym or acrostic in fact one of the most notable is

42:39

Rosaria Butterfield who was an outspoken lesbian and Marxist and tenured professor at Syracuse University and was saved by the mercy of Christ and is now and has been for quite some time married to a brother in Christ who is a pastor in the

43:04

Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America and North Carolina I had the privilege of even having breakfast in their home and then joining them for worship in the church where Kent Butterfield pastors

43:18

Rosaria's husband and I've interviewed a number of other people by and for instance just recently

43:26

I interviewed a brother in Christ named William Allen that is his alias because he didn't want to unnecessarily bring any kind of negative things upon his family friends and loved ones by revealing his full true name but he actually was somebody who was deceived by Satan to get so -called transgendered surgery he had the full -blown surgery and so -called became a woman of course we know that that is not the case and William Allen the man who of which

44:08

I am of whom I am speaking about he knows now that that did not happen he was never a woman and he has now had the reverse surgery done and is a member in good standing at a bible -believing church and so on but I've had quite a number of interviews on this subject either with people and Patti Height is another one that pops into my head

44:30

Patti Height who is very popular amongst the Calvary Chapel folks that's where she is a member in Old Bridge New Jersey wonderful sister in Christ who lived the life of a lesbian before getting rescued by by Christ and also had gender confusion on top of that but when did you notice that something was amiss there at the

44:55

Nazarene Theological Seminary? Well I can't remember a specific time

45:02

I as a church pastor I would hear things from now and then and you know there's always a lot of you know maybe gossip or whatever you want to call it that goes around and most of the time it's not worth pursuing it's somebody's aggravated about something and it's a it's really not gotten it has no biblical basis for concern other than somebody's preference or something but there were things that were said

45:35

I guess online a lot of social media stuff it's really created there's a lot of misinformation but there's also a lot more transparency because things are out there on the internet and whatnot and so probably that's how things began to kind of come to my attention and as those things happened there was a growing concern on my part that you know is this legitimate does our leader our leaders unaware of some of these things is this an oversight

46:06

I guess you want to believe the best about people especially leaders of institutions that are a part of your denomination and especially like our

46:17

Nazarene Theological Seminary that's kind of our flagship educational institution and so eventually it led me after research and and even actually knowing some people personally that I talked to it led me to reach out to the president of Nazarene Theological Seminary Jaron Rao in fact before anything before I put an article out before I made any noise about this

46:45

I wanted to make sure that what I was hearing and seeing and receiving evidence about and the buzz about some of these kinds of things

46:56

I wanted you know is this true I'm not going to stake my reputation on something that's not true or or protest if you will something that is not valid and so I just reached out straight to the president he was gracious enough to respond to my my queries and actually called me at one point we had

47:16

I can't remember now it's been a few years this was this all went down like in 2020 or 2019 even when

47:25

I first had the first conversation so there's a couple conversations a couple back and forth via email and in essence

47:33

I became very troubled by the lack of transparency by which he would speak to me about some of those that were in employment some were professors some were staff people there was a guy that was openly identifying as a homosexual that that I personally knew him and he just wasn't they they had hired him at one point probably unaware as a student of the seminary and then while he was there he came out publicly this is who

48:11

I am this is this is part of my identity that whatever and and then they after he graduated they actually hired him full -time and so you know

48:20

I just you know I had some really serious questions about some of these things you know what what what are our thought processes there because I know on my local church level for me to hire someone in in a ministry kind of a role or really any kind of a church leadership role that was professing to be openly homosexual and all that kind of thing that that would be problematic you know

48:49

I would be I would not be able to do something like that here's our seminary that exists to train

48:54

Nazarene pastors for the Nazarene churches you know and that they are hiring even staff but then also some of their faculty and let me just be really clear here too that this we're not talking you mentioned this but we're not we're not talking

49:13

I'm not talking about every single staff person or professor that's there there are some that are biblically solid and they are holding to and affirming you know the historic stance of the church of Jesus Christ and biblical truth and the church of the

49:31

Nazarene and all that kind of stuff so this is uh this is a really a minority of those folks that are there at the seminary and yet they are continuing continually given the platform wow continue to be uh speak and to teach and so I was

49:46

I was told a number of things in my conversation with the seminary president and that was you know that these speakers that I was concerned about that were adjunct professors he said you know well they're not we're not allowing them to teach a class on sexuality and to which my response would be well would you allow a mormon to teach the class on evangelism as long as they don't teach a class on christology you know and so um that that's nonsensical to me this is of course this is a yeah this is a this is a fundamental um basic issue that's uh that's clear in scripture regardless of the fact that there are some who want to muddy the water and they may they may themselves be more confused than a termite in a yo -yo but it doesn't change this reality you know and so um so after and then when

50:39

I asked the president you know point blank jaron ralph the president you know hey do you believe that those who practice homosexuality do you believe that they will inherit the kingdom of god he would just respond he would not respond clearly with to that question he would just say well we we affirm the church of the nazarene statement on human sexuality which

51:02

I think is a is a good statement the problem with that is is that you you one you're not answering the question with clarity uh you're you're taking kind of a position of of I affirm our denominational stance but there's some vagueness to that so now there are some um in in lots of different denominations who would decide who would distinguish between it's a false dichotomy but they would say well

51:30

I I will uh affirm this belief even though I don't hold this belief if that makes sense yeah it's a it's almost a it's a new pharisaical way of trying to split out you know split out these hairs and stuff it's a it's it's a coward's way out as far as I'm concerned yeah yeah yeah and it it lends itself to one of the one of the problems

51:55

I think in the church generally speaking in the United States at least is we uh we seem to think that ambiguity is a strength right and it's a ambiguity is a great gift for a politician right but it's not a great gift for a pastor a preacher a spiritual leader a prophet whatever you know uh we need clarity in our pulpits and from our leadership about things that are clear in scripture so yeah and it's a complete denial of 2nd

52:27

Corinthians chapter 6 verse 14 to be not unequally yoked with unbelievers for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness and what communion hath light with darkness

52:40

I mean it's just as simple a teaching and as clear a teaching as can possibly be but we have to go to our midway break and I want to pick up on that as soon as we return from this midway break please use this time wisely write down as much of the contact information as you can for as many of our advertisers as you can so that you can more frequently and successfully contact our advertisers keeping in mind that the finances that come through our advertisers are essential to the existence of Iron Trip and Zion radio so please keep that in mind when you hear advertisements on this show and try to respond to as many of these advertisers as you can but also send in your questions to our guests on this issue of the pro -homosexual stance of many in the faculty at the

53:32

Nazarene Theological Seminary and or at least too many of them and give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence you may remain anonymous if it if the question compels you to do so it's about a personal and private matter etc and the email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

53:54

we'll be right back don't go away it's such a blessing to hear from iron sharpens iron radio listeners from all over the world here's joe reilly a listener in ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed dr joe moorcraft i'm joe reilly a faithful iron sharpens iron radio listener here in attoy in county kildare ireland going back to 2005 one of my very favorite guests on iron sharpens iron is dr joe moorcraft if you've been blessed by iron sharpens iron radio dr moorcraft and heritage presbyterian church of plumbing georgia are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters heritage presbyterian church of plumbing is in foresight county a part of the atlantan metropolitan area heritage is a thoroughly biblical church unwaveringly committed to westminster standards and dr joe moorcraft is the author of an eight volume commentary on the larger catechism heritage is a member of the hanover presbytery built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets jesus christ himself being the chief cornerstone and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great protestant reformation of the 16th century heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers scripture alone grace alone faith alone christ alone and god's glory alone their primary goal is the worship of the triune god that continues in eternity for more details on heritage presbyterian church of plumbing georgia visit heritage presbyterian church .com

55:37

that's heritage presbyterian church .com or call 678 -954 -7831 that's 678 -954 -7831 if you visit tell them joe royley an iron sharpens iron radio listener and a toy in county kildare arland sent you if you love iron sharpens iron radio one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers one such faithful advertiser who really believes in what chris arnton is doing is daniel p patafuco serious injury lawyer and christian apologist dan is the president and founder of the historical bible society their mission to foster belief in the credibility of scripture as the written word of god they go to various churches schools and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts along with a fascinating presentation by mr patafuco demonstrating the reliability of scripture to advance the cause of the gospel they created a beautiful perfect facsimile of the genealogy of jesus christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition 1611 king james bible this 17th century hand engraved chart shows the family tree of jesus christ going back to adam and eve this book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of noah's ark and the tower of babel and an explanation of why the genealogy of jesus is so important for his claims to the throne of the universe originals of this work are in museums and nobody's ever made it accessible to the public in a large book form before you can have your own copy of this 44 page genealogy book for a donation of 35 or more visit historicalbiblesociety .org

57:48

that's historicalbiblesociety .org thanks for helping to keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air so when iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the new american standard bible were among my very first sponsors it gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the nasb i'm dr joseph piper president and professor of systematic and homiletical theology at greenville presbyterian theological seminary in taylor's south carolina and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor chuck white at the first trinity lutheran church in tonawanda new york and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor anthony methenia of christ church in radford virginia and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor jesse miller of damascus road christian church in gardenville nevada and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor bruce bennett of word of truth church in farmerville long island new york and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor rodney brown of metro bible church in south lake texas and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor jim harrison of red mills baptist church in mayapac falls new york and the nasb is my bible of choice here's a great way for your church to help keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air pastors are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart consider restocking your pews with the nasb and tell the publishers you heard about them from chris arnson on iron sharpens iron radio go to nasbible .com

59:50

that's nasbible .com to place your order chris arnson of iron sharpens iron radio has had a long time partnership with our friends at cvbbs which stands for cumberland valley bible book service they specialize in supplying reformed and puritan books and bibles at discount prices that make them affordable for everyone cvbbs has been a family -owned book service since 1987 operating out of carlisle pennsylvania they seek to bring you the best available christian books and bibles at the best possible prices and now they're also shipping worldwide browse the pages at ease shop at your leisure and purchase with confidence at cumberland valley bible book service order online worldwide at cvbbs .com

01:00:51

that's cvbbs .com or you can order by phone at 717 -249 -0231 that's 717 -249 -0231 for orders of 50 or more use promo code iron for an extra five percent off their already discounted prices and please let our friends at cvbbs know that you heard about them on iron sharpens iron radio puritan reformed is a bible believing kingdom building devil fighting church we are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in scripture alone puritan reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image -bearing prophets priests and kings we teach families to worship together as families puritan is committed to teaching the whole council of god so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of god as the waters cover the sea we sing the psalms teach the law proclaim the gospel make disciples maintain discipline and exalt christ this is pastor david reese of puritan reformed in phoenix arizona join us in the glorious cause of advancing christ's crown and covenant over the kings of the earth puritan reformed church believe build fight puritan phx .com

01:02:32

so chris arnzen here host of iron sharpens iron radio i strongly recommend a church i've been recommending as far back as the 1980s grace covenant baptist church in flemington new jersey pastored by alan dunn grace covenant baptist church believes it's god's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world they believe churches need to turn to the bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship god in spirit and truth they endeavor to maintain a god -centered focus and to protect worship from the intrusion of carnal entertainments and distractions reading preaching and hearing the word of god singing psalms hymns and spiritual songs baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship performed with faith joy and sobriety discover more about grace covenant baptist church in flemington new jersey at gcbc -nj .org

01:03:52

that's gcbc -nj .org or call them at 908 -996 -7654 that's 908 -996 -7654 tell pastor dunn you heard about grace covenant baptist church on iron sharpens iron radio you when iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the new american standard bible were among my very first sponsors it gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the nasb i'm dr joseph piper president and professor of systematic and homiletical theology at greenville presbyterian theological seminary in taylor's south carolina and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor chuck white at the first trinity lutheran church in tonawanda new york and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor anthony methenia of christ church in radford virginia and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor jesse miller of damascus road christian church in gardenville nevada and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor bruce bennett of word of truth church in farmerville long island new york and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor rodney brown of metro bible church in south lake texas and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor jim harrison of redmills baptist church in mayapac falls new york and the nasb is my bible of choice here's a great way for your church to help keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air pastors are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart consider restocking your pews with the nasb and tell the publishers you heard about them from chris arnzen on iron sharpens iron radio go to nasbible .com

01:06:07

that's nasbible .com to place your order charles heddon spurgeon once said give yourself unto reading the man who never reads will never be read he who never quotes will never be quoted he will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own you need to read solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to heart the mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world since its beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ -exalting books for all ages we invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com

01:07:05

that's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from solid ground solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio and some books i'd like to highlight from solid -ground -books .com

01:07:24

that very perfectly reflect our conversation today first of all we have five lies of our anti -christian age by rosaria butterfield who i mentioned earlier that is available through solid -ground -books .com

01:07:42

she is the former marxist lesbian and tenured professor at syracuse university who became a born -again believer is now married to pastor kent butterfield of the reformed presbyterian church in north america denomination and his congregation is in north carolina and that is a remarkable book five lies of our anti -christian age is also a classic on the subject the same -sex controversy defending and clarifying the bible's message about homosexuality by james white and jeffrey neal and there is also a book available at solid -ground -books .com

01:08:25

that is perhaps even more to the point of our conversation today surviving religion 101 letters to a christian student on keeping the faith in college by michael kruger please go to solid -ground -books .com

01:08:46

and if you want any of these books if you type homosexuality in the search engine these books and more will come up but of course they have an enormous spectrum of books on every issue that involves the christian faith and written by authors dating back as far back in history as the 16th century protestant reformation and extending forward to our current modern day including such modern day authors as dr james r white of alpha omega ministries go to solid -ground -books .com

01:09:18

frequently purchased generously and always mention that you heard about them from chris arnson of iron sharpens iron radio before i return to our conversation today i have some very important announcements to make folks if you really love this show and you don't want it to go off the air please i'm urging you go to iron sharpens iron radio .com

01:09:39

click support then click click to donate now you can donate instantly with a debit or credit card if you prefer a snail mail mailing a physical check to a physical address from your post office the old -fashioned way there will be a physical address that also appears on your screen when you click support at iron sharpens iron radio .com

01:09:59

where you can mail your checks may payable to iron sharpens iron radio if you want to advertise with us whether it is your church parachurch ministry your business private practice like a law firm or a medical firm or maybe it's just a special event whatever it is as long as it's compatible with my beliefs i would love to help you launch an ad campaign quickly because we're just as much an urgent need of your advertising dollars as we are your donations so please uh go send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:10:32

and put advertising in the subject line always keep in mind i never want anybody listening to give your own church where you're a member less money than you normally give your church on the lord's day in order to bless us with a financial gift never do that and also if you're really struggling to survive and make ends meet financially wait until you're back on your feet and more financially stable before you send us a financial gift the bible is very clear that we are primarily to use the money with which he has blessed us which is still god's money to provide for our church and our family and providing for my radio show is obviously not a command of god but if you love the show and you don't want it to go off the air and you are blessed financially above and beyond your ability to provide for church and family and you have extra money for benevolent recreational and even trivial purposes please if you love this show share some of that money with us go to irontrepansionradio .com

01:11:26

click support then click click to donate now last but not least if you are not a member of a christ honoring biblically faithful theologically sound doctrinally solid church no matter where you live in the entire world i may be able to help you find a church that's biblically faithful as i have done with many people in the iron trip and zion radio audience spanning the globe sometimes i've even helped people find churches only a couple of minutes from where they live in all parts of the planet earth so if that's you you are without a biblically faithful church home no matter where you live on the planet earth please send me an email to chrisarmson at gmail .com

01:12:03

and put i need a church in the subject line that's also the email address where you can send in a question about this very important issue that we are addressing today that does not only involve the church of the nazarene denomination but involves many churches that profess to be evangelical protestant we are talking with pastor jared k henry lead pastor of mackey church of the nazarene in mackey indiana and he is also the president at the holiness partnership .com

01:12:41

and we are addressing we cannot remain silent one nazarene pastor calls upon leaders of the nazarene theological seminary to repent of their pro -lgbtq stance and that's chris arnson at gmail .com

01:12:55

for your questions uh how shocked were you when you were starting to hear rumors which led you to having a a personal phone conversation with the president of nazarene theological seminary how shocked were you when you discovered how soft it had become against the damnable practices of homosexuality um i think that i was um most shocked uh from my conversation with the president i um i was really kind of taken back that he was it may have been even different had he said you know i just i've had a hard time managing things or i i wasn't fully aware or something but it really felt like he kind of doubled down now let me just say he was very kind about what he said to me um but um and and polite and he's soft -spoken and uh in a lot of ways was just a it was a it would be normally a pleasure to talk with him that was his personality however the content of the conversation was very troubling and so i was i was pretty shocked and and that's when i kind of took notes over the the couple conversations and then the emails um of what was going on and things that were said and that really ultimately comprised the i have a blog and i wrote an article on that blog why i can no longer support nazarene theological seminary um i put that article together and then i sent it out to a number of uh trusted godly uh folks who gave their input to me and i said look i want you to tell me am i too hard uh am i too soft am i you know um give me feedback and i did i had lots of people give me feedback on it so i edited it a number of times um and change wording and i just wanted it to be uh i wasn't just wanting to be full of rhetoric but i wanted it to be something that would be um significant and i was really in some ways i was afraid when it went public when i would put it out that well it looks like this would be the end of the church of the nazarene in some ways you know like ouch i'm gonna be kicked out or something um and so i sat on this thing for almost a year uh praying and seeking the lord and also the council wise council godly wise council from other people and so it was september 2020 when i actually it i put it out publicly on my blog and uh it was a wednesday night that was one mistake that i made was putting it out on wednesday night right before our our wednesday night service and when i got done with the wednesday night service i posted on the blog and i shared it on my social media and it um it went nazarene viral uh and when i got after the service and i went back to my office to get ready to go home my phone had all kinds of texts i had missed calls and i was like what is going on i thought there was something you know uh something happening and it was this this blog article i just did not anticipate that it would cause the kind of feedback that it did but what was shocking to me about the feedback was that i had almost universal uh feedback that was positive about what i had done um now let me caveat that with saying some of the social media stuff there were some trolls on social media for sure um i don't know all i didn't know all those folks and i didn't know um who where they were some of them probably were not even christians they weren't even in the church of the nazarene and so on and so forth but but in terms of people who contacted me either directly or through private messages on social media or email or whatever i had really only two negative responses one was uh someone who worked at the global ministry center uh who called me and uh said hey you know i know the president jaron round he's a really nice guy and i said well i didn't say he wasn't a nice guy i just said you know he's compromising on this you know this is i'm not accusing him of things aren't true i'm just saying he's he's not uh providing leadership in this area and he's not behaving like not behaving like a bible -believing born -again believer yeah yeah not well not not just his own personal behavior but his his leadership right you know uh action you know and well i don't know i think behavior though would uh be under uh also under the um understanding of of who you are partnering with or who you are permitting to identify with you um and by the way uh it just reminded me of uh when the first time you said how soft -spoken and kind and nice he was reminded me of proverbs 27 verse 6 faithful are the wounds of a friend but deceitful are the kisses of an enemy and uh so uh i i think that you could say that although this man i'm not saying that this man is actively involved in homosexuality uh to uh tolerate it amongst those that identify as a part of the being a part of the body of christ uh we are not even to publicly eat with someone that identifies themselves as a christian but is involved in unrepentant uh scandalous sin uh so uh i think that this could rightly be uh identified as a a practice uh who uh you know that this man is guilty of it's i don't think he can hide behind this just being some kind of an administrative thing well that's certainly what the last thing that you said there about the administrative stuff i think that's a lot of times you hear people say well you know i have there's policies and there's procedures and there's this kind of stuff and it's it's kind of a smokescreen for um you know um hiding the issue but i guarantee you if there was a there was a guy that was um advocating for neo -nazi ideology they wouldn't hide behind policy to deal with it and so um it's really a cultural thing and you know you hear a lot about tolerance and it's interesting in in the book of uh revelation you know god speaks to the church at dieterra and says you have this against you you tolerate uh the woman jezebel and what's the problem with tolerating some there's a lot of people who kind of maybe annoy me or our personalities don't jive and i i we need to tolerate but the reason that god rebukes them for tolerating jezebel is because she's teaching uh his servants to practice sexual immorality and so when you when you have it's actually uh i think biblically you could you could make the case that it's it's more grievous to the spirit of god and and christ that someone who purports to speak on god's behalf is teaching things that if acted upon by the listener the pupil the disciple would would damn them in your terminology or in biblical terminology that's more grievous than the person who's actually just living in sin you know and so he didn't say i had this against you you tolerate lost people who are searching or who are seeking or who are even attending your church he says i had this against you you tolerated someone who is in a leadership position and is advocating for behavior that is contrary to god's sexual design for humanity and that's that's ultimately god's rebuke to the church at dietary and i think that so that's why you know i i had somebody call me one time and said well you know you just must hate anybody you know that uh claims to be lgbt you whatever i said absolutely not that's sir i'm a local church pastor i have people in my congregations who um and churches that i pastored previously who have dealt with this temptation some have come out of this lifestyle praise be to god for spiritual victory the overcoming um this this mindset and this ideology and way of life even and uh so it grieves me as a pastor to people who are who are resisting this temptation and saying no to this and saying yes to jesus that we have leaders who are allowed to teach in our seminary who actually believe that we should affirm behavior that will send people to hell that that that that grieves me and i have a righteous anger about that because i love people who say that they're in the lgbt community yes it's not a loving act uh to give people a salved conscience about practicing or believing things that are going to damn them that's not loving uh and in fact absolutely in addition to first corinthians 5 11 which i quoted earlier or paraphrased uh i am writing you this is the apostle paul i am writing you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of a brother if he is guilty of sexually immorality or greed or is an idolater reviler drunkard or swindler not even to eat with such a one having them on the faculty is a much more serious issue than just eating with them but also these people that seem to think they are somehow safe from god's wrath just because they do not personally engage in homosexual acts or even heterosexual sins like adultery and fornication they may think well i don't do those things but don't forget uh we have some powerful words in uh the book of romans in chapter one uh where if we jump down to verse 24 therefore god gave them up to vile impurity in the lusts of their hearts so that their bodies would be dishonoring among them for they exchanged the truth of god for falsehood and worshiped and served the creature rather than the creator who is blessed forever amen for this reason god gave them over to degrading passions for the women exchanged natural relations for that which is contrary to nature and likewise the men too abandoned natural relations with women and burned in their desire toward one another males with males committing shameful acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error and just as they did not see it to acknowledge god god gave them up to a depraved mind to do those things that are not proper and then if we jump down to verse 32 and although they know the ordinance of god like this president does that he it seems to have some kind of a allegiance to the code of sexual ethics of the church of the nazarene although they know the ordinance of god that those who practice such things are worthy of death they not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them so people have to remember it's the approving of those who practice them as well yeah you know i think that uh part of the the the nuance that has been attempted to be created is that there are some who would say while i hold this view that is biblical and the church of the nazarene holds for example i embrace the church of the nazarene statement on human sexuality which i think is biblical at the same time i think that they would say but i also recognize that i have brothers and sisters who don't hold my view on sexual ethic and while i disagree with them i i still think that they're in christianity much like you introduced me as wesley and arminian you said you were calvinist we would say although we might disagree on some of those theological issues those are not heaven and hell issues and so we both we view each other as brother brothers in christ and um and i think you can do that with those issues but for me this is a this is an essential issue in other words what issues are salvific what is what issues are salvation kind of issues and the bible's clear if you practice homosexuality you will not inherit the kingdom of god right and so if that's the case then then it's actually you can't you can't be a brother and advocate for something different than what god says on some issue that's clear in scripture you know there's i've heard even people say well there's only three or four verses maybe six verses in all of scripture i mean well how many verses do you need you're gonna gamble you're gonna say yes you're gonna gamble your eternity on how many verses there are that unbelievable how many times does god have to say something to get through to you on this issue yeah and let let me lovingly correct you brother when you said uh well i think you said um uh my view or something like this the the way i see it something like that well this is very clear truth that has been universally held by the body of christ for millennia you know this is this is not something that we have to dig deeply into the scriptures with a full knowledge of the original languages to come up with these prohibitions this is this is as plain as the nose on our faces i think he said in my view that's the way he said it uh it's a pretty it's a pretty clear thing that it should be everybody who's a christian's view it should be yes yeah i agree we have uh a uh listener in brownsburg indiana kirby and kirby in brownsburg indiana says could it be that the president and those in the faculty who are affirming the belief that homosexuality is acceptable are on the deceiving category called side b christianity which some are coming up and rising in ranks in the body of christ in formally biblically sound denominations who are identifying as homosexual but think that they are completely fine with god as long as they don't physically practice these things yeah that's an excellent question because i don't know if you were aware of this a number of months ago i organized a live public moderated debate between my friend dr james r white of alpha omega ministries and a an individual named dr gregory coles and dr coles calls himself a side b as in boy christian uh which is a part of a group that teaches that you can be a homosexual in your identity but as long as you don't practice it or lust uh in that way and they would of course say that lust in heterosexuals and in homosexuals is equally sinful uh they they would say as long as you're not guilty of the physical consummation or lusting it is completely fine to be in the state or an intrinsic state of being or identity as a homosexual and in fact gregory coles actually in this debate declared it was a gift from god and said that if somebody were to give him a pill or offer him a pill that would cure him of homosexual attraction he would not take it so uh going back to the listener kirby's question you know if this is what they're talking about when they say simultaneously we agree with the church of the nazarene statement on sexual ethics but at the same time welcome people on the faculty that say that they are in favor of lgbtq uh identities i i'm not sure where the president would would say that he stands it's just hard to get an answer on that anyway uh but i think it's a that's a bit of a different issue the issue is even if he were completely orthodox in his own views as as a leader he has responsibility for who's on the faculty there oh yeah you know at the end of the day you're responsible for that so it doesn't matter you know if you're orthodox and you believe right and you're doing the right thing on your watch you've allowed so again i don't want to be just unintentionally um uh condescending or anything uh you know but i think it ultimately comes down to is this a competency issue like are you are you able to lead an institution or are you actually using your position to advocate something that you secretly hold or you know i'm not sure i i don't i can't tell you i can't make a judgment on his heart what he's trying to accomplish all i know is he he knows that there are professors that are teaching in our nazarene seminary who are clearly lgbt affirming they're not even side b their side go for it you know practice it and he's allowing them to teach so for me it ultimately doesn't matter what your your i mean it doesn't matter what his perspective is on this issue but the reality is that whatever your perspective is even if it is orthodox your leadership is is failing and you have not led well because you are allowing someone who holds a an anti -biblical view of sexuality and is actually advocating for open sin and whether they're teaching a course on sexuality or not the reality is they are teaching things that if you can't get that right you can't get anything right right ultimately you i mean your your your mind has been twisted and so um that's that's where i think the problem comes and rests upon okay uh we have sally in it's either buford or beaufort south carolina uh and sally asks i don't understand your reaction to the majority of those who responded to your blog article where you were shocked that the majority were in favor of what you were saying if you originally thought that your denomination was biblically faithful and more conservative why would you be shocked by that um i think i was i think i was shocked because of the overwhelmingness i maybe wasn't clear on how overwhelming like like that wednesday night i was responding to text and and phone calls i was on the phone thursday the next day i was on the phone literally all day long calls text emails started pouring in friday uh i like from the time that i got up from the time that i went to bed i was on the phone call and on saturday morning when i got up i went to my phone and again it was full and my wife said to me sunday's coming you need to fast from your phone just let it go and so i think in that regard i was it was overwhelming i mean i got i got calls from pastors leaders internationally for the church of the nazarene i was contacted by students current and former students of the seminary who said you don't have any idea of the depth of this you know or whatever and i was contacted by uh even professors at the seminary who said this is going on you know i wouldn't tell who they are because i don't want to put their job in jeopardy or anything but but literally was contacted by people and it was overwhelming in that regard i guess i should say so part of me was like i'm going to stir up and you know it will feel like an attack upon a nazarene institution and i was born again in the church of the nazarene so i love the church of the nazarene the reason that i feel compelled to speak is because i love the church of the nazarene and i love i love the seminary uh the idea i should say of the seminary but i cannot currently support uh the seminary with the leadership that we have who are looking the other way when it comes to faculty uh who are who are lgbt affirming now are you required as a pastor in the church of the nazarene to financially as a church support the the seminary because there are denominations who do the do do that i remember yeah i remember there was a brother uh well -known theologically reformed and calvinist writer who was excommunicated from the reformed church in america commonly known as the rca the same denomination where uh norman vincent peale and robert schuler were pastors this man was a theologically sound pastor unlike they were and uh he was excommunicated because his congregation and he and the leadership refused to financially support their seminary because of the liberalism i don't even think it was as bad as what you're describing and because it was years ago and uh in fact they excommunicated him without even a trial or hearing or anything but is that something you have to do uh we we they that we are encouraged as local churches to take up a an offering for the seminary uh our church actually before this had you know we just budgeted a certain amount out of our church local church budget we no longer do that we do support the world evangelism fund which is that goes to support missionaries in the church of the nazarene and other missions uh things around the world where we are actually we call we are considered a 10 church which which means that 10 or more of our local church income does not stay local it goes to support missionaries and my understanding is that i don't i don't have the numbers in front of me or the percentage but there is like a point 0 .1

01:37:21

or something like that of of that money of all the churches in the usa and canada goes to support the seminary so they might get something from us but it's not it's not like we're choosing we we have cut off anything that we give directly to the seminary at least my local church okay we have to go to our final break if you do have a question of your own send it immediately because we're running out of time chris arntzen at gmail .com

01:37:52

we'll be right back i'm dr joseph piper president emeritus and professor of systematic and applied theology at greenville presbyterian theological seminary every christian who's serious about the deformed faith and the westminster standards should have and use the eight volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the westminster larger catechism titled authentic christianity by dr joseph moorcraft it is much more than an exposition of the larger catechism it is a thoroughly researched work utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology dr moorcraft is pastor of heritage presbyterian church of cumming georgia and i urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation for details on the eight volume commentary go to westminster commentary dot com westminster commentary dot com for details on heritage presbyterian church of cumming georgia visit heritage presbyterian church dot com heritage presbyterian church dot com please tell dr moorcraft and the saints at heritage presbyterian church of cumming georgia that dr joseph pipa of greenville presbyterian theological seminary sent you i'm dr tony costa professor of apologetics and islam at toronto baptist seminary i'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where i've been invited to speak and have grown to love hope reform baptist church in quorum long island new york pastored by rich jensen and christopher mcdowell it's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of god like the dear saints at hope reform baptist church in quorum who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of christ in his holy word and to enthusiastically proclaim christ jesus the king and his doctrines of sovereign grace in suffolk county long island and beyond i hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as i have for more information on hope reform baptist church go to hope reform li .net

01:40:24

that's hope reformed li .net or call 631 -696 -5711 that's 631 -696 -5711 tell the folks at hope reform baptist church of quorum long island new york that you heard about them from tony costa on iron sharpens iron armored republic exists to equip free men with tools of liberty to defend god -given rights against the twin threats of tyranny and chaos if you own a rifle to resist tyrants and criminals then you should own body armor and a med kit for the same reasons a rifle stops evil body armor and med kit keep you in the fight and preserve your life armored republic is a body of free craftsmen united to create tools of liberty we are honored to be your armorsmith of choice civilian ownership of body armor is about increasing decentralized power and by comparison reducing the advantages of centralized power the danger of centralized power is often represented by the word king as americans we hate the word king applied to any mere man we hear armored republic and in a republic there is no king but christ arm yourself with tools of liberty at armoredrepublic .com

01:41:54

james white of alpha omega ministries here if you've watched my dividing line webcast often enough you know i have a great love for getting bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity and besides that they feel so good i'm so delighted i discovered post tenebrous lux bible rebinding no radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently but i'll give it a shot jeffrey rice of post tenebrous lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan all his work is done by hand from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching jeffrey uses the finest and buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors like the turquoise goat skin tanned in italy used for my nestle all in 28th edition with a navy blue goat skin inside liner and the electric blue goat skin from a french tannery used to rebind a reformation study bible i used as a gift the silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art for more details on post tenebrous lux bible rebinding go to ptl bible rebinding .com

01:43:14

that's ptl bible rebinding .com greetings this is brian mclaughlin president of the secure com group and supporter of chris iron shop and zion radio program secure com provides the highest level of security systems for residential buildings municipalities churches commercial properties and much more we can be reached at securecomgroup .com

01:43:59

that's securecomgroup .com but today i want to introduce you to my senior pastor doug mcmasters of new high park baptist church on long island doug mcmasters here former director of pastoral correspondence at grace to you the radio ministry of john mcarthur in the film chariots of fire the olympic gold medalist runner eric liddell remarked that he felt god's pleasure when he ran he knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of god i sense that same god -given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for god that love starts with the wonderful news that the lord jesus christ is a savior who died for sinners and that god forgives all who come to him in repentance trusting solely in christ to deliver them i would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the long island area or queens or brooklyn or the bronx in new york city for details on new high park baptist church visit nhpbc .com

01:45:11

that's nhpbc .com you can also call us at 516 -352 -9672 that's 516 -352 -9672 that's new high park baptist church a congregation in love with each other passionate for christ committed to learning and being shaped by god's word and delighting in the gospel of god's sovereign grace chris arnzen here i am forever grateful to cumberland valley bible book service for their generous financial support of iron sharpens iron radio but that's not the only reason i love them cvbbs .com

01:46:02

carries the finest in theologically reformed literature from 16th century classics like calvin's institutes 17th and 18th century puritan treasures like the works of jonathan edwards 19th century volumes by the prince of preachers charles spurgeon all the way up to the 21st century with the best of r .c.

01:46:22

sprawl steve lawson vody balcom and more on top of their stellar book selection cvbbs .com

01:46:30

offers up to 50 off retail prices with an added five percent off for orders of fifty dollars or more when using the promo code iron visit cvbbs .com

01:46:43

today and use promo code iron that's cvbbs .com enriching minds and maintaining the theologically reformed influence of iron sharpens iron radio through their financial support now shipping worldwide this is pastor bill saso grace church at franklin here in the beautiful state of tennessee our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support iron sharpens iron radio financially grace church at franklin is an independent autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of god as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our lord jesus christ and of course the end of which we strive is the glory of god if you live near franklin tennessee and franklin is just south of nashville maybe 10 minutes or you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby we hope you will join us some lord's day in worshiping our god and savior please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about grace church at franklin our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org

01:48:10

that's grace church at franklin .org this is pastor bill sasa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign lord god savior and king jesus christ today and always and a big shout out to pastor bill sasser of grace church at franklin and franklin tennessee for their huge enormous generosity over at that church they knew that we are going through some real hard times financially currently we have some big important bills that need to be paid and so on top of their monthly support that they already provide they added a fairly substantial financial amount to that this month to help us through this crisis and i want to thank pastor bill for always having my back as it were when things like this arise and to repeat the website of that fine congregation it's gracechurchatfranklin .org

01:49:23

gracechurchatfranklin .org and the word at is at it's not the symbol at it's gracechurchatfranklin .org

01:49:33

also i want to remind you folks that this program is paid for in part by the law firm of but if you go and associates if you are the victim of a very serious accident or injury or medical malpractice anywhere in the united states call 1 -800 -NOW -HURT 1 -800 -NOW -HURT or visit their website 1 -800 -NOW -HURT .COM

01:49:53

make sure you tell daniel p buttafuoco attorney at law that you heard about his practice but if you go and associates from chris orrins and avani sharpens iron radio and uh pastor jarrett uh we have a listener in bucks corner new york named vanderbilt and vanderbilt says when doing some digging into the church of nazarene website i discovered that you ordain women i was wondering if any of you folks who disagree with homosexuality have come to realize that the same hermeneutic used to justify the ordination of women is also used to justify homosexuals in the church because it is normally defended by cultural things that have changed over time and not the bible and i was wondering where you stand on that yeah that's i think that's a fair question uh brother um yeah and in fact that's a good question actually i'm glad you asked it i had i had matthew sickle on this program who is a key uh administrative figure in what is now called the global methodist church they broke away from the united messes methodist church over the the issue of ordaining homosexuals and so on and they ordain women and i had to be honest and i said it seemed to me like a ticking time bomb that may lead them right back to the point where they're ordaining homosexuals again at some point in the near future or in the distant future either way yeah so i appreciate you asking that question i think it's a good one uh to respond to um i think it's a totally different hermeneutic um and here here's how every verse chapter everything in scripture the whole testimony of all of the bible is that the practice of homosexuality is not compatible some of the strongest language um against behavior or otherwise is is is used to talk about things outside of god's sexual design all right so you can define something uh positively or negatively in other words if i had three women standing on a on a platform and uh somebody said who's your wife i can say either the one in the middle is my wife or i can say the one on the left and right are not my wife either way you would know all right so scripture defines uh god's design for sexuality both positively and negatively in scripture there's never a time when homosexual practice uh homosexual relationship marriage whatever is ever spoken about even neutrally it's always spoken of this is not god's design all right and there's without exception and so that's why this issue is so clear the issue of the ordination of women i i think is a different uh a different hermeneutical approach um than than um homosexual practice and here's why there are examples in scripture of women who lead and preach and pray publicly uh in both the old and the new testament for example in the new testament there's a reference to anna the prophetess uh this is a female who is prophesying or preaching or speaking on behalf of god and um she's in the temple and she she's doing those kinds of things uh in the old testament there's examples of that there's examples in the new testament of paul in corinthians talking about women praying in a church service so so that's different so what you have to do then with this issue uh and why i think the issue of women in in ministry or ordained women is different than the issue of homosexual practices that there does seem to be some scripture that says women are are to be silent in the church and that women are are allowed to speak and i have actually been given authority biblically to be a prophetess and to lead in that kind of capacity in the life of the church and so so um i think that is an issue by which i would certainly understand i think whoever shared the question it's like they come down on the side yeah so they come down on the on the side that says i'm going to go with the scripture that seems to say women should not speak in the life of the church women should have no authority and the church of the nazarene comes down and says look we recognize that there there is that scripture but we also recognize that there is scripture that says women are to have this level of authority they are to speak as a prophetess or as a leader in that capacity and so we're going to say that while there certainly are times when women should not be ordained and we recognize that there's also a time where we should recognize god has called this woman to be a prophetess anna for example and there's others and so we're not going to stand in the way of god calling women to uh to to the ministry in that capacity how does that does that make sense well obviously i i understand what you're saying but i don't think it makes sense that taking the other position uh for instance i don't know how you would respond to first timothy 2 uh in verse 12 but i do not allow a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man but to remain quiet for it was adam who was first created and then eve and it was it was not adam who was deceived but the woman was deceived and became a wrongdoer so the the excuse or the argument that i've heard from egalitarians people who believe in the ordination of women is that that paul's prohibition was a cultural thing because women were prone to gossip and talking during a worship service but obviously paul is saying that the answer is found in genesis in creation so how do you how do you respond to that i'm just curious well i would say you know i guess i would answer i would do like jesus answer a question with a question and say well what do you do about the fact that there are clearly women even in the new testament who are given position and i so that to me is the difference between this the issue of women in ministry and the issue of homosexual practice is is a very different issue because there does seem to be scripture that um that doesn't it's contradictory so then you have to ask well is there is this is our is scripture speaking to specific events i'm not just saying it's cultural i'm not claiming cultural i'm claiming scripture's testimony about the the women having authority what authority do they have in the life of the church there you just quoted from timothy that seems to be a passage of scripture that would say they don't have any authority but there are other places where it seems to give them that authority because it it there is a woman she is a prophetess and so for me it's like that's where we have to do the harder it's a more difficult kind of a place to be because it's like okay i've got to apply this so if there is an exception to this rule um whichever side whichever rule you have you've got to acknowledge that if you like i believe there's that women can be ordained and so if i believe that there's got to be an exception though because there's obviously scripture that says there's time where women to be are to be silent well i would then i would we are out of time brother and i would love for you to come back and have a very cordial uh friendly uh debate on the issue either on my show or even at a public setting but we will deter we will determine that at some other point of course just let me quickly say being a prophetess does not necessarily mean somebody has authority in the church over men because there are women who are and women should proclaim the gospel to everyone they meet and so on but uh we will we will pick this up at another time god willing and i want to make sure that our listeners have the necessary websites for the mackie church of the nazarene in mackie indiana go to mackie nas .org

01:58:49

mackie nas .org and for the holiness partnership go to the holiness partnership .com