Matt Slick Discussion on New Apostolic Reformation

I think it's also down, I'm going to turn that on. We should be good now.

It's not a lot of headsets. Can you hear that? Can you hear me now? We need a headset.

What's up? We need a headset. Ah, for YouTube. Do I even have it? Oh, we're out of time.

We'll have to use, you can use this microphone. On here. It's, I just,

I don't know I don't know why I don't have it all. I need to buy a

Mac. I don't want to use a Mac. I have to go to the station. I have to get it set up.

I don't know if there's anything else I can set up. We've got a lot of important things, maybe not everything, but a lot of stuff.

We're running out of time. That's what happens when one person's in charge of everything.

Alright. So they can hear me on that one. That's where it is. This is where you're coming in.

That's not for anything but a camera. We're going to have to use one of the specials. Alright. Let's just work it.

She's got a good open air pre -trip and about three and a half hours. A what? A good open air pre -trip and he's wasting three and a half hours.

Well, that's not me. Just saying. Yeah, a good one then. I'm not swearing. You're not swearing for the vlog.

No, that's good. Alright. Let's get started. My stomach's starting to go up.

We're live. We're live on YouTube. Let's jump in. We're live on YouTube.

We're live on YouTube. We're live on YouTube. Alright. Let's just jump in and talk about some new

MSR information. Alright. We ask that you be with us and that you guide us this evening as we look at your work and look at this movement that is huge.

And we ask that you be with us as we take this first Alright, so, a lot of people pointed out a lot of work on the

NAR, I'm going to get into it because that's just the nature of being an apologist, looking at karma, doing everything that I do, and finally,

I needed to get into NAR, the New Apostolic Reformation. And so, a couple weeks ago, a friend of mine and I drove down to Redding, California, and we went to Bill Johnson's church at Bethel, Bethel Church, which is in Redding, California.

And we were there for a couple, three days, and went to the church, checked it out, and bought some books.

I've got them right here in the back. I haven't even gone through them yet. A lot of Kindle downloads.

The advantage of a Kindle download is I can do searches inside of books. I've been actually reading through the books.

And I'll tell you quite a bit of what they say I really like. Mine is real good. And we'll talk about some of that.

But then we'll be talking about some of the others. Alright. So, let me tell you what the

NAR basically is. I'll just do a couple of verses on the

Bible, really quickly, because it remains where it is I'm talking about. Now, the

New Apostolic Reformation officially, so to speak, officially began in 2001.

And C. Peter Wagner is, he was, he passed away in October of 2016.

He is, or was, the leading prophet, or the leading apostle, of this new movement that the

NAR, for short, is claiming is occurring in the Christian church. Basically, what they're saying is the offices of apostles and prophets are restored to the church today.

And that's the fivefold ministry of Ephesians chapter 4, verse 11 -12. And that what is necessary is for Christians, Christian churches, to come under the headship and alignment.

The prophets both get revelation from God. The prophets more so.

And the prophets give revelation to the apostles. And the apostles, C. Peter Wagner, the apostles then decide what to do with it.

But the apostles can also get revelatory knowledge directly from God. So, what they're talking about is a movement, and there's a seven hills movement, we'll get to that another time.

But it has a set of aspects of culture. Try to look at it as entertainments, and socials, and politics, and whatever.

And they want to take everything over. Now, I like the idea of trying to take the world over to Ephesians.

I have no problem with trying to move it into the area of trying to get the entertainment industry more

Christian. To get politics more Christian. I'm fine with that. Social structure of education.

We have to be more Christian. Now, some people may hear me say, we don't want that. We don't want a Christian base in everything they can do.

Because true Christians are going to want integrity. They're not going to want blind and stealing.

We want Christians to be running things because true Christians are going to be people who are going to put others first.

Not Ravenclaw. It's the landscape. And just do hostile takeovers. That's not

Christian. But everybody knows this kind of stuff. So, their movement is very good in that way.

In that their goal is to be very outreach. Outgoing. That's fine.

But the way we're doing it is with this apostolic reformation. A new apostolic reformation.

I'm going to go through some of the quotes that I have. But I said we're going to go through some of them. I'm going to go right now.

This is... And that's just from four sources.

Because I'm reading through them. The problem is I don't want to just find something else.

It's a process. The NAR, etc. Somebody in it. And they just say, oh, that's what they said.

No, I need to go find the documentation to recontext. It's a very slow process. So, I'm doing this.

I have heard some things. And so, I'll go and I'll check out the source. And I'll verify.

I did that yesterday, as a matter of fact. And I got this one book. And Bill Johnson's co -authoring.

And downloaded it and was going through a certain quote. Sure enough, there was that quote. I was reading before and after this quote. In a context.

All right, this is what we're looking at. But then I started reading in the book in some other areas. And I'll go over it.

I'll go over it tonight. It's just amazing. I did some of the stuff I said. I mean, seriously.

And so, I'm trying to always get this information. After it's possible.

I don't want to just jump on the bandwagon. The NAR is evil, etc., etc. Maybe it's good.

Maybe it's not. But I want to know what they teach. I also want to know if it agrees with Scripture.

A lot of what I've seen people ask is whether it agrees with Scripture. They want to be holy.

They believe in the Trinity. The deity of Christ. Salvation by grace. We should be people of integrity.

Increasing in sanctification. We should be involved in the culture. We should be making disciples of people.

We should be expanding. No problem with any of that. The problem, however, is in this issue of the apostles as an office that's restored and they get revelation from God.

Let me tell you something. Here's a rule. This is a rule of the universe. Not many people know this rule.

But it is a rule of fact. If you want to mess something up, all you need is two things.

People and time. That's it. If you want to mess it up, you just need people and time.

So, what's the best way not to mess it up? Have your nose in here in the word of God.

He's done it again. I had someone give me a very good comment today. We were talking in the office.

And this guy said, I know we disagree on a lot of stuff. And he said, one thing's for sure.

You always are looking at the word of God as a standard. Now, that one, for me, that's a huge compliment.

I want to be known as someone who's, what does this say? Not what does the philosophy say. Not four points.

But what does this say? And if I can understand this better than all, whatever system people come up with,

I'll agree with it as long as it agrees with this. This is primary. That's how it has to be in every creationist mind.

It has to be that way in every single creationist mind. Now, because I am a non -cessationist, this adds a little bit of a layer of difficulty for me to go through this stuff.

Cessationism is the view that all charismatic gifts have stopped. With the definitive process of completion of the canon, depending on the particular view.

Back in the first century, they stopped. I agree with that. And I disagree with that based on extra -general reasons.

1 Corinthians 1, 7. It's that you, speaking of the church, everyone everywhere called upon the name of the

Lord, verse 2. And it says that you will not lack any charisma while you're waiting for the return of Jesus.

Any charisma, any charismatica, any. That right there proves to me that the charismatica has not ceased.

Now, there are different interpretations of that. I don't see the big difference. 1 Corinthians 13, verse 12.

I don't know that. I have information on it here that people will ask about it later. But this is my position. Now, if you disagree, that's okay.

But I'm just telling you this is my position. Because of this, I believe in the word of knowledge, the word of wisdom.

I believe in people having a better ability to pray and heal than other people.

I don't, for clarification purposes. I do not believe that a single person has the office of healer.

I do not believe that a single person can purchase Christ from the dead. I don't go for that. That's more of an apostolic kind of thing.

But even then, the apostles couldn't do everything. And even Jesus himself couldn't. That's a whole other topic, too.

He couldn't heal them because their faith was weak in one period. So I believe that it can still happen. I do.

I believe all the charismatica can still happen. I believe they're normative. I believe they can go to a church. And then everybody's going to be speaking in tongues about that idiocy.

And I also believe that, you know, charismania. There are a lot of people that just mistakenly assume that all this stuff is okay.

And a discordant kind of whack of this is the case.

Could you raise the camera up? Just raise it up a little bit. You're always supposed to have it at eye level.

So. You want to do that right there? Yep. That one.

So that should be a middle pole. You can do that right there. Middle pole. Yeah. Yeah.

Still doing it. So this is what I believe. Whether or not you agree with me, that's okay.

That's okay if you agree. It's okay if you disagree. It's all right. But the issue here is what is the

New Apostolic Reformation teaching? So what I'm going to do is go through some of my quotes.

What I'm going to be doing is releasing this as an article on my own. And I'm only through four sources.

And I've already got all of it. And this is even all of it. What I did yesterday and today was assemble some of the quotes and some of the information.

I put many things together and put some of the better stuff, so to speak, here. I'm going to be releasing quotes on different topics, on different things, so that other researchers can know exactly where to go to see the same quotes.

I've done this with various groups and various other things, so people can find exactly what this is for. So what

I'm going to do is I'm going to let them speak for what it is they say, and you'll get a view of what's going on.

Just so you know, there's no one official statement of faith for the

NAR. There's no one official. There are a lot of people who believe different things inside the

NAR. A lot of people may be more charismatic than others.

You could even have some reformed people in there. You could have some Armenian people in there. You could have all kinds of people in there who can hold to the basic tenets of the

NAR, which is basically this, that of all the apostles of the church, for example, the apostles and prophets are for today, and that they're adhering to the people who join the

NAR, adhere to that principle, and that we are to come home to the subjection and teaching of those apostles and of those prophets in various areas.

Now, this is a very simplified view of it, but I want to give you a basic idea of what it is that they're teaching.

Does that do work? I don't know. Does this make any difference? So, as you can tell,

I want to tell you this, that what I did, and I'll hand it over to this later, this sheet,

I went through my Bible program, and I found every single New Testament usage of the word apostle.

I found every single New Testament usage of the word prophet. And what

I did was, I had them release it as an article on Cardin as well. So you see, like, it's 119 verses on prophet, and I think it's like seven or something, probably on apostles.

And I have every single one of them listed. And then what I did was, at the top of the article, I categorized them.

I went through every single verse. I'll hand this out later. I don't want to do it now because I want you to pay attention to what

I'm saying, and we'll get this out. But I have the original 12 apostles, general information, apostles listing of them, apostles and elders, requirements to be false apostles and things like that.

And then there's a prophet's Old Testament. I'll just move on to the next page. And then prophets. Anyway, I have it all categorized in different stuff.

I want to know what God's word says because if I'm going to be looking at the NAR, what I want to find out is, well, what does

God say? I want to know if what they're saying about apostles and prophets in the

New Testament are true. One of the things that I was surprised at, honestly, there are

New Testament prophets. In the church, apostles actually talk about them in the

New Testament context. Are they for today? That's another topic. We'll get into that.

I have to mention Jesus in a broader topic. But I want you to know I'm doing my homework. This will be the first presentation

I've done on NAR. I put in many, many, many hours on this. And I thought it would be good to go over some of the stuff.

All right. Having said all of that, apostles and disciples is my category. This is from theicleaders .com.

Theicleaders .com is a group of over 400 apostles under an organizational headship that they've assigned.

They agree on certain basic beliefs. And they are under that system, so to speak.

Coincidentally, I've heard the number of members in this group is 360 million people.

And I'm going to go over the top. Next year, Columbia is going to be at the top of America. The biggest one is in Bogota.

They've got them in Asia. They've got them in America. They've got them in Canada. They've got them in Africa.

The church has 20 ,000, 50 ,000 members. And they're one of the NAR. Huge, huge groups of people.

They love Benny Hinn. He's a flaming heretic. I mean, I'm surprised that guy didn't pop into Ignatius.

He's a flaming heretic. Or he's walking around, getting more and more friction on the road.

He's bad. I'll do a video on these guys sometime. I think it would be good for me to do that when these heretic black holes are teaching.

And I mean heretic black holes. But the NAR basically accepts these people as truly another denominator in the

NAR. And that's clearly a slogan I would cast in scripture.

And I see no passage of Jesus in anything I've read about anything from them in the many, many, many hours

I've been reading. It's got him going through different books, undermining stuff, going through it over and over and over.

Not a single thing is defended by what the pastors know. And so the

NAR is blowing it right there. Because the Bible says, you know, 1 Timothy 2, 12 and 13, I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man.

That's what Adam was first creating in 1 Timothy 3, 15, or 1 Timothy 3, 15.

The next chapter also says, I'm giving you instruction on how you're made in the household of God. You go to Titus 1, 5 -7.

You go to 1 Timothy 3, 1 -6. It talks in there about the elders. And it says a man, a woman, and an elder.

A man, a woman, and an elder. A pastor, you might call an elder. You go to 1

Timothy 5 -17 for that. It talks there about the elders who receive honor, especially those who work hard at preaching.

And teaching. So I have a definition of a preacher, a pastor. He's an elder. The elders being a man and a woman, literally in the

Greek. A man of one woman. Adam Paul doesn't allow a woman to exercise authority over a man in the church.

I'm having somebody, well, that's just Paul's opinion. Nobody can tell you that. It's just his opinion.

So your opinion is greater than the Holy Apostle? Well, I have the same kind of spirit. This is the kind of stuff that's going on. The ABC doesn't tell you what's going on in the

Christian church. It's problematic. All right. So, I see there's a comment.

What is the difference between committed disciples and commissioned apostles? Actually, yeah. That's the Greek word for power.

There is a right to power or authority. He is one commissioned and authorized to fully represent his sender.

He represents in this person the one who commissioned him. So they're saying the apostle represents the one sending him.

That means Jesus is sending the apostle. So none of these apostles represent Jesus on earth. Now, if you're sitting in a congregation listening to this, and this guy says he's an apostle, and he represents

Jesus, right? The psychological damage that can be done by someone in that position.

So while Greek apostles give us the form of the New Testament apostle, it is the Hebrew Shiliac that provides the content.

He goes on and so forth. This is apostles and prophets. Check this out.

This is by C. Peter Wacker. If a church has

Jesus without apostles and prophets, it has no foundation from which to initiate solubility.

So if it just has Jesus, then it has no foundation. If it just has

Jesus, it doesn't have a foundation from which to initiate solubility. Jesus isn't enough.

Obviously, this is a problem. Let's go down to this.

It's official. This is by C. Peter Wacker. Recognition of the apostles of apostles and prophets has become official.

In January 2004, Australian Communications convened a consultation of 50 to 60 high -level

Pentecostal charismatic and Apostolic leaders to discuss the issue. The forthcoming Orlando Statement says,

We affirm that there is an ongoing post -New Testament activity of the Great Samantha of 1 Corinthians 12, as well as the ministries of pastor, teacher, evangelist, described in Ephesians 4.

Therefore, we affirm the ongoing post -New Testament activity of apostles and prophets.

I'll come up with this. I'm going to email the quotes and locations. They'll be released on my site later. The second

Apostolic Age is a phenomenon of the 21st century. My studies indicate that it began around the year 2001.

I think it was Space Odyssey until around that time, too. We have a quote from Andrew, and he's a cessationist.

So I'm going to use this to consult him. The cessation of miracles is a doctrine implied by the mind of man, created to comply with the belief that the season of forever and ever no longer exists.

So there, of course, we're having fun. But this is just not true.

Cessationism is not a doctrine implied by the mind of man. It's a godly people who go to the scriptures, and they conclude that.

Oh, never mind. How about this? We are now living in the midst of one of the most ethical changes in the structure of a church that has ever been recorded.

It is a major group of time, a major event. We're now living in the midst of one of the most ethical changes in the structure of the church.

It's funny. When I go to pastoral epistles, I just read through what

Paul says. He tells us how the church is supposed to be ordered.

And folks, just so you know, it's Presbyterian. Because it's the word

Presbyteros in the Greek, the rulership of elders in the church. Almost like a big instruction. He calls them elders.

It's not congregational vote. It's eldership rule. That's what Paul says.

I don't know if you're looking for this to be in a copy or a write -down. It might be what you're talking about. Let's debate it. So the point is,

God has set up in the scriptures his church system, and yet there's supposed to be the most ethical change coming on it.

But the pastoral epistles are good enough. Come on, what is this? Yeah!

Big changes coming. New truth coming. New revelations. We have new apostles.

Yeah! Oh, hey, maybe it's going to knock people over. It's not a big deal. Someone said to me, because I know

I'm doing this research, they said that he was a comfortable evangelist person. And they had some guy in Africa.

He was standing with his buddy. He goes, oh, my God. He goes, oh, my God. He falls back.

He gets up again and falls back. And then I watched these videos.

I watched a few today where people were defending him. It was just a beautiful moment like that.

People fall down. All this stupidity. And I got to send you the video.

There's one where a guy in Africa actually falls over for the performance.

And he just stops and finally answers the question. And I was like, oh, my church. And he goes, oh, my goodness, right back to this.

And he gets up and has the video. And I was like, wait, that's not a big deal.

I was on the phone with him. I said, I don't know if that was a camera man or not. And he said, you have a dimple. That's true.

Okay, now, sorry, guys. I didn't know who it was. I didn't know who he was. I didn't know what he was talking about.

I didn't know who he was. But he did head through something. I'm trying to get it back on, it was more than four minutes.

Okay, I remember, okay, so, sorry. So I went up at one of these charismatic churches once, to be slain in the spirit.

This was soon after I was starting to study apologetics, I was in my early 20s. It was across the street from Disney Land, at the

Melody Land school or something, no, it's no longer there, it's on Harborville Boulevard.

And there was a big church, and it's just kind of a deep area, the central stage.

Right, I'm going to be slain in the spirit, come on now, okay. I want to be, if it's real, I'm going to go, because I know, because he's gone,

I don't know where he is, he was gone. No, I was flying off the road, wasn't I? Okay, so a bunch of us got up here, a bunch of us got up there, and I'm sitting right in the middle of them, and the priest goes, where are you going to go?

And I go, I'm going to go to the top, and he puts his hand on my back, I go, okay, I'm going to go back, and then the next one back, and the next one back, and the next one back, and the next one back, and I'm like, yeah, okay.

If he's going to not do more, it's going to happen. And then the next person goes, and I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm like, one more, and it's over.

You know, and he goes to the next person. And I can still see, I can still see, his hand was right here at my level,

And the guy's hand was right there, that far away from the forehead of the guy's eye. And he goes...

And just flew up from the top of his back and went fake. And bang, bang, bang. I'm the only one left standing.

And the whole thing. As far as I'm concerned, it was an emotional ride.

They were there for emotion. And that's it. Because I'm going to tell you something. I'm going to tell you something. When you're the presence of the real

God, you will go down. And you will go down with me. Because in the presence of God in the Bible, when they see the

Lord, they're with Him. Oh, I'm undone. Who am I? I mean, people are devastated by being in the presence of all this.

And I'm like, hey, come on up. And I've seen these videos with the vocal sounds.

You know, all this stuff. I'm telling you, it's funny. You know.

I don't know if that makes sense. One more time. I'm going to hold this one real quick.

So, yeah. Okay, what do you think of this talk? This is the Old Testament, right?

Faith does not come from the mind. It comes from the heart. He said this several times.

Faith does not come from the mind. He said it several times. Now, what I want you to see and assess for is this issue of don't use your mind, use your heart.

The Bible says the heart says, I can trust it, Jeremiah 17, 9. The Bible says, Romans 12, 2, but will they be transformed by the religion of your mind?

And Jesus, when he quoted, the Lord our God is one.

That's in Exodus 364. But in the next verse, 365, it says, the love of the Lord is found in your heart, soul, and strength.

When he quoted that in Matthew 22, 37, Jesus changed one word, strength, to mind.

The love of the Lord is found in your heart, soul, and strength. I mean, heart, soul, and mind. We have an intellectual religion.

It's not only intellectual. Okay? It's all what we are. But God wants you to think.

So, if someone's saying, don't think, or speaks in such a way where the idea of thinking is kind of not a good thing, they want you to feel, that's generally a bad thing.

All right. So, C. Peter Wagner says, I now believe that it is possible to live without sin one day at a time.

Maybe you're in a coma. But even then, who knows? I like to say the radio, anybody who says you're a saint, they don't say they want to spend five minutes with me.

I'll cure them. I'll get you to sin. Not that I want them to, but I'm pretty good at hurting people.

I mean, I can see them. I'm going to help. Why does he keep telling me to do that?

No, because I've sinned bad. And he's really a narcissist. He's an obstreperous dude.

Let me voice your doubt. All right. Let's see.

So, Jill Gilson Johnson says, When Jesus said, freely you receive, freely give, what requires giving, what does not belong to the gay, primarily referring to the release of the

Holy Spirit. The lesson could apply to anything he has given us. I underline this because it isn't exegetically correct.

People will say things that sound good. But are they? The most exciting time in life, in the life of the church, is when the

Holy Spirit begins to move in power. That's the most exciting time when the

Holy Spirit begins to move in power. Maybe it is. Maybe it's not.

I want to know at first to get that. I want to make an absolute statement. That's a spiritual thing. Because I would think the most exciting time in the life of the church is when

Jesus moves through the movement. That's what I would think. Because the

Holy Spirit is very close to Jesus. John 14, 26. John 15, 26. These are subtle things.

This is what Jill Johnson says. Please note that I emphasize living aware of the

Holy Spirit in and upon me more than a problem. In other words, I'm not just looking for a doctrinal statement to make me feel better in a situation.

It's not a doctrine. I'm looking for Him, the person of the

Holy Spirit. I'm looking to recognize the one in whom all safety, victory, and joy who continually positions me for triumph to the glory of Jesus' name.

This reminds me of the apparitions. They were talking about coming to themselves because this is what

Jesus wants. He helps people. Now, this is subjective. But I'm looking for Him, the spirit of the person of the

Holy Spirit. So, one of the things

I unearthed and started to work on is a book, 100 Truths About Jesus.

And when I do my devotions, I just make notes of the things

I found about Jesus. I make notes of Him. He's called

God. He's a man. He survives forever. Jesus died and rose from the dead.

He's crucified. He's a ransom for many. He's sanctified. Jesus is the guarantee of better covenant.

Jesus draws all men to Himself. Jesus judges. Jesus is the apostle and high priest of our confession.

Then I have a bunch of my own statements. Okay? I am the bread, the door, the shepherd, the way, the truth, the life, the light of the world, the truth, the love, and the resurrection, the life of the first and the last.

Did you know that Jesus received honor and glory from the

Father? Did you know that Jesus is the very witness of Himself? The works

He does are the very witness of Himself. The Father is the witness of Him. The Holy Spirit is the witness of Jesus. The multitude is the witness of Jesus. The prophets are the witness of Jesus.

The scriptures are the witness of Jesus. The disciples are the witness of Jesus. The Father will honor us if we serve

Jesus. The Father wants us to fellowship with Jesus. The Father tells us to listen to Jesus. Everyone who has heard and learned from the

Father comes to Jesus. Jesus is honored, the same as the Father. Jesus reveals to the Father. Jesus is explained to the Father. The Father draws us to Jesus.

Who's the Bible about? Jesus. Jesus said in John 5, verse 39, in the search of scriptures, because in them He gave eternal life.

It's not the Holy Spirit we should be seeking. It's Jesus. Now, it's not to say you can't pray to the

Holy Spirit. It's not to say, Holy Spirit, please, heal. We can do that. There's nothing wrong with seeking the

Holy Spirit in that sense. It's just that Jesus should be primary. That's the issue.

The scriptures are about Him. Everything's about Him. The primary job of the Holy Spirit is to bear witness to Jesus. So, if they have the

Holy Spirit truly in their work, you'd think that their main emphasis would be the exaltation, the elevation of the personal glory of Jesus Christ.

And not experience of raising the dead. Even though that's a great thing. Or speaking in tongues, which

I think is a fine thing. Done under proper circumstances, in the proper order. 1

Corinthians 14. So, I don't have a problem with this stuff. But, it's just, something's not right.

You ever read stuff about some other group, and you go, you know, I can't get my finger on it, but something's just not right. Well, we get that sense.

And part of the reason is because, well, if you're not talking about Jesus, you're talking about Jesus and, or something and Jesus.

Either Jesus and, or something and Jesus. And it should be just Jesus.

As we should be. And then what Jesus tells about other things, what we listen to. That's one of the great, as your attention is, kind of things going on.

Okay, so, the most exciting time in the life of the church is when the Holy Spirit begins to look for forgiveness. He's looking for forgiveness first of the

Holy Spirit. Do you think you're thinking, no, it's just not quite right. We're talking about a former apostle according to the group.

Bill Johnson rightfully denounces cultic meditation where people have their minds.

That's a good thing. Prophecy, all contemporary,

Holy Spirit, sorry, I'm going to call myself that.

I know it's coming. All contemporary Holy Spirit filled believers are able to prophesy by faith and can learn the ways that God speaks as well as increase the ability to prophesy.

In a sense, this means everyone has the privilege and obligation to hear from God for themselves.

Now, let's analyze this. How many of you want to hear from God? I do.

I can tell you there's been three instances in my life where I've heard someone speak from God.

Not an audible voice. The first one was when I was saved. He was there.

I'm going to have to put this in here in my research as a testimony. I know what it means to be in the presence of the

Lord. The second one was when he spoke to me.

One time in my heart and mind, I knew it was him. Absolutely. I've been praying and praying and praying and praying and praying and praying and praying and praying and praying and praying before he used me.

Over and over and over, hour after hour, day after day, week after week. Constantly.

He used me, used me, used me. Constantly driving up the road, in the shower, eating, using me. Burdens, desire.

Constantly. I can tell you where I was standing when I heard him say, What do you want? I was stunned because it was him.

I said, I want to be used by you to bring as many people into the kingdom as possible. Then I heard the second question.

Early in life or late in life? I said, Late in life. Soon after that,

I'll tell you what the third one was. Soon after that, what I did was I took a piece of paper, A9 by 11.

Sheet of paper. No lines, nothing. I still have it. I put the date at the top and I signed it.

I said, What does my contract say? It doesn't matter what you fill it in as. That's what

I want. I put it in the picture frame. It wasn't buried. I said, I don't care.

I don't care what you put in here. I'm signing. It's a symbol for me. I kept it in my room.

With my roommate in the room. That's what I did. Then, a few years later,

I got married. A few years later, I'm in seminary. The last year of seminary,

I was out of seminary. I can't remember. I was complaining. I was on my knees talking to the

Lord. Lord, I've done this for you. I've done this for you. I've done this for you. Why have you not opened the doors?

Why have you not done this? Why have you not done that? I heard that voice again. You signed a contract.

It was like, I can tell you everything about where I was. One of those things again. I was like,

Oh, wow. That's him reminding me. I said, Yes, but, but, but, but.

You signed this contract. He said, Yes, but, but, but. Do you want to take it back? No, I don't want to take it back. It was just a weird thing.

I just noticed it. He said, When did you sign it? That was the last

I heard from him. When did you sign it? They kept everything in my mind.

Lord, but, Lord. I moved several times. So I didn't know where that thing was.

So I got up. And I rummaged through some boxes. Rummaged through this.

Rummaged through that. Went over here. Went over there. Oh, there it is. I pulled it out.

And it was seven days of the day that I signed it. Put it back. Went to my knees.

And repented. Lord, you're the son. Now, I know what it means to hear the voice of God.

But in that sense, not like that. I still didn't repent. Not like that.

I did not repent. It hasn't happened. So I'm familiar with the character model.

I'm familiar with that presence. I don't have any problem. And I know a lot of reformed people are going to get really mad at me when

I just say it. I don't give a flying whip. I said, You can tell me a scripture, and you can't do it by reason, logic, sensation.

It's not going to work. It's not going to work. I'm convinced it's still there. But I'm not making it up.

I'm not making it up. I've got experience. But I want the NAR people to hear it. It's charismatic.

I want them to decide. I want them to know. I know. I understand. I can tell you about the time

I prophesied. I can tell you about the time when God gave me a word of knowledge. I don't think that's happening. It's happening.

I don't place any hope in any of those things. I understand why these people want what they want.

I understand. I understand why they have experience. Because after the initial movement of the

Holy Spirit upon me with such great power, I was brought to repentance in weeping, sobbing, tears on my knees.

And then Jesus was just there, aware of his concern, aware of his attention.

I was aware of it, and I still remember it. And he stepped into me. My sin left,

I would say. I'll give you a short version. I went to the heart of that day, the day I buried my son. I know what it means.

I understand these things. For years and years and years and years, what

I did was I kept coming to that initial experience and wanting it again. I can tell you,

I remember various places where I prayed. But when I wanted it again, I wanted it again, I wanted it again.

But in California, a certain job, a certain day, I realized God's not going to give it to me again.

Because I was looking to experience. I wasn't looking to Christ. I wasn't looking to the

Word. I realized that we have that for a reason. To prepare me for what

I need to do later. But also, not again, because I was looking to experience. That is our fault.

That is our draw. We want experience to guide us. We want feelings to lead us.

We want those things that draw us, because we don't know how to use our minds very well. But it's easy to submit to feelings.

And we know, don't we, how many times our feelings have misled us. And have deceived us.

So they have the obligation to hear from God themselves. When I heard from God, I believe

I was hearing from Him. It's very frequent. It's memorable. And it's for a specific reason.

When we hear that this happens in Scripture like this. It's impossible to have it. It's not impossible. But things happen.

We see it in the Old Testament. We see it in the New Testament. The thing I'm saying is I'm difficult. But we never, ever, ever submit the

Word of God to any experience, no matter how powerful it is. It's always the Word of God over any experience, any and every time.

That's how it ought to be. That's how it has to be. And I examine these things every which way.

As I've looked at the Word of God over 37 years of examining. Everything I can get my hands on. I'm not a cessationist.

Those NAR people, those who are charismatic, those who believe in this stuff. I want you to understand. I understand.

I also want you to understand the Word of God is primary. And if you don't trust the Word of God, you're going to be led astray.

And what I'm reading here, I'm going to read you some more stuff. You're going to hear some more stuff. That's just ridiculous.

Not good. This is what Bill Johnson said. Many think that a false prophet is uncovered when a prophetic word is inaccurate.

But that is not necessarily true. Now, right here, you know something's wrong.

Many think that a false prophet is uncovered when a prophetic word is inaccurate. But that is not necessarily true.

This is in his book, Experience the Impossible. Simple Way to Unleash Heaven's Power on Earth.

Page 1, page 40. Alright, let me read it again. Many think that a false prophet is uncovered when a prophetic word is inaccurate.

But that is not necessarily true. Study the prophecies of Agabus. In the book of Acts, he was a true prophet of God as acknowledged by the

Holy Spirit. But not all the details of his words were accurate. So he mentioned specifically

Agabus. So what did I do? I went and looked up Agabus.

Acts 11, 27 -30. Now at this time, some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch.

One of them named Agabus stood up and began to indicate by the Spirit that there would certainly be a great famine all over the world.

And this took place in the reign of Claudius. And in the proportion that any of the disciples had means, each of them determined to send contributions, et cetera, et cetera.

It took place, right? This will build. How about this one? Um, this is, uh, okay.

There's a, okay. I'm trying to find another.

Another something about Agabus. I'll try to edit this quote. Uh, I'm just trying to find it for reference.

Agabus said this, that, um, that the Jews were buying Paul. It was actually the

Romans that did it. I thought I had it, but I copied it over from my dad.

Um, the Romans did it. They got the Jews with the instigation. Acts 21 -33.

Acts 28 -17. So shall the Jews buy the man who owns his belt. Agabus said that.

It wasn't the Jews who did it. It was the Romans who did it. All right?

So I was thinking maybe Bill Johnson was referring to that. It wasn't exactly accurate.

But it didn't take much study. Acts 2 -22. Men of Israel, listen to these words.

Jesus, the Nazarene man, attested to you by God in miracles and wonders and signs which

God performed through him in your midst, just as you yourself know. But this man, delivered over by the pre -determined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men, and put him to death.

So he's saying, the Jews, you nailed him to the cross by using Bill. He's going, no, that was the

Jews. You're the one binding him because you're the one sending him. You're the one doing this stuff. And that's the instrument of somebody else.

It's really consistent. Bill Johnson's wrong. And I believe the reason he's saying this is because he knows that these prophets are making false prophecies.

He's trying to cover his traps. But it's about 80 % inaccurate.

I've got all the documentation that he says is 80 % inaccurate. I need that. I will build a monkey in a cupcake.

I need that. Revivals never start with the watchdogs.

So he's aware that there are people who are saying, well, we're watching. We're seeing.

We're doing everything in scripture. Revivals never start with the watchdogs. Never. He also says, the number of conversions in this hour are staggering.

The sheer numbers of people being raised from the dead are beyond comprehension. I have no problem with people being raised from the dead.

I believe it can happen. But, I mean, it's not that I want to test scientific law, but, you know,

I believe it can happen. I do. But the numbers that just happen are beyond comprehension.

I'm just kind of curious. I haven't heard anything. I have a website that gets 17 million visitors a year.

And thousands of emails. Thousands upon thousands. My phone does the thing where it downloads all the 18 ,000 emails in one account.

I don't know where they all came from. All right. The concern of something not being biblical takes center stage as we try to eat the meat and throw it at the bones.

So something not being biblical takes center stage. I think that's pretty important. I think that's pretty serious.

We all tend to interpret what is before us by our knowledge of scripture learned from our own history.

The problem is that we all have limited knowledge and exposure to the truth. Some go into fear mode, thinking that emotional experiences are in excess and that excess is our greatest danger.

It is true that emotionalism has caused problems for the church throughout history, but extreme emotionalism is in the spot.

Rather, the quiet unbelief and resistance from the skeptic is a far greater enemy.

So we're not allowed to be skeptical. Okay? It is a powerful deceiver because it has become accepted in most of the world's church culture as wisdom and spiritual intelligence.

Do you notice what he's saying? Don't really cross -examine things by scripture. That's the enemy. Right? That's the enemy.

One of the primary issues that Jesus had with the scribes and pharisees was their approach to the scriptures. They were very learned by the educational standards around them.

They could quote, recite, and teach others the commands of God along with the commands they created from what they thought

God wanted. But they could not do what they taught others to do. There was no impartation of grace that actually enabled them to obey the word they studied.

But if condemnation, a backhanded kind of a comment about people who are really critical of what they're doing, and somehow this is not what needs to be done.

They're the ones who are educated. They're like pharisees. So I'm educated.

I guess I'm a pharisee. Because I'm comparing what he says against scripture. I've got it as an open mind.

And unlike many apologists, I believe in making charismatic gifts. I'm experienced though.

I have no problem with it. I have no problem with what's going on here. The manipulation. I don't buy into what they're saying.

Sickness is from the devil. So I have a friend. We still see each other occasionally.

Maybe a few years. And we were into this kind of stuff.

And so he said that it's not

God. He said it. I said, no it isn't.

And he didn't like that. He goes, it's not true. I took him to Exodus 4 level. Moses was being sent by God to speak to Pharaoh.

Moses didn't want to do it. He wasn't a good speaker. God says, who's made man's mouth?

Or who makes them mute or deaf or seeing or blind is another Bible word. So who makes them mute, deaf, seeing, or blind?

God says, I'm the one who does this. So literally, my friend, literally, had his

Bible. I've talked about this before here. He's had his Bible. He's looking at it at first. Looking at it at first. For a full minute.

And then said to me, well, I don't know what it means. But it doesn't mean what it says. Okay. Some cultures exalt skepticism as a virtue.

The greatest fears being gullible or misled. Fear of being wrong prevents them from ever really being right.

Such a deception sells books to the fearful. But there's little to shade the course of history through bold faith, the glory of God, skepticism, masquerade as wisdom, and is applauded by those without experience.

There's patterns in both ways. You see how they write this.

You've got to really pay attention to what's going on. Okay. Good.

I'm going to say this. It's very important. I'm getting old.

I'm getting old. It's a heart attack. So this is out of the book.

Shifting Shadow of Supernatural Power. A Prophetic Manual for Those Wanting to Move in God's Supernatural Power.

And Julia Warren is in it. Bill Johnson are in this.

And another guy. They're co -authored. Bill Johnson is the pastor of Bethel Church.

Ian Clayton, a prophet in New Zealand, believes that these greater things include personally experiencing the domain of the third heaven.

Heaven's in Jewish cosmology. The first heaven, clouds, birds, wind.

Second heaven, the stars, moon, sun. Third heaven, the divine place of God.

That's how it works. That's third heaven. Okay.

He believes that these greater things include personally experiencing the domain of the third heaven, which is the domain of God, and fourth dimension miracles, such as teleportations, walking through walls, and dematerialization, in order to pass unarmed, unarmed, through a workers' crowd, walking on water, raising the dead, and performing miraculous works that transcend our natural laws of physics.

Clayton is no stranger to the supernatural. He has experienced many of the fourth dimension miracles, listed above, as have others, and regularly seeks to commune with God, not so much on earth, but in heaven.

I don't want to take so much heresy before I continue, because I don't want to start telling things.

All right. Okay. Not so much on earth, but in heaven.

He believes that as sons and daughters of the king, we have a right to explore the realm of heaven, and to walk back into the realms of earth, bearing its presence, relation, and power.

The realms of heaven, Clayton walks in, include glimpses of the garden of Eden, a throne room of God, and areas of his kingdom that few have seen, and even fewer have words to describe.

Now, in a book, no, okay,

I'm going to ask you guys, what does this sound like? Potentially. I'm going to say, the prophets,

Sean Waltz and Petruchio King, have written about their experiences walking in the throne room of heaven, along with other ground -floor ministers.

Now, that can be, but, so what did you do today? Oh, yeah, I went to the throne room of heaven today.

I went to the throne room of heaven, and I was, what was it like? Oh, it was a pretty good visit.

It was cool. I liked it. God sent me. I can tell you right now, this isn't my thing about this.

Let's say all of you, for whatever reason, went out to the store, and I just came back, and I said, don't worry, I'll be back. I'll stay here for a little bit.

I'll bring some stuff in, and come back. And I'm on the ground, sobbing and weeping, hysterically.

After five minutes, I'm able to cop out the words, presence of God. That's more of what it would mean to be in the presence of God than, yeah,

I went to the throne room of heaven. Because this is the kind of idiocy that I'm seeing now.

So casually talk about walking in the throne room of God, and yet it's not wrong.

Why would they defund it? Because it's idiocy, it's stupidity. You don't just sit there casually and talk about being in the presence of God in his throne room.

It's like the Holy of Holies. John Stafford, continuing,

John Stafford talks about his experience involving accessing heaven, the throne room, and entering into the council chambers of God.

Clayton demystifies the experience by explaining that accessing heaven can be a learned experience.

Entering the realm of the kingdom is a learned experience. The spirit man can go with Jesus and walk with God because the

Holy Spirit resides in your body. That's exactly what

I thought. Sounds like astral projection. Astral projection is when your spirit leaves your body.

Now, you might say, but wait a minute, Matt, Paul did it. St. Paul did it. Fourteen years ago,

I do not know whether in the body or out of the body. I do not know. But such a man was caught up in the third heaven.

He talked about himself as probably a communicator. Well, that can happen. St. Paul did this five days.

As for the body, it could be a moment, it could be whatever. This is not about death, the separation of the body from the soul, like death.

This is not about practice. If he's talking about this, we don't know because it doesn't say astral projection.

But it sounds like astral projection. I'm the only one who saw that. Anybody else see that? Okay? I'm not saying it's what it is, but this is exactly the kind of crazy author that is used in this kind of practice.

The spirit man can go be with Jesus and walk with God because the Holy Spirit resides in the body. Now, maybe the author might look at this later in the scene, but that's not even what

I'm saying. Not even close. Guys, no problem. Correct me.

But you better clearly write something like this. Because if I ever wrote something like this, yeah, the spirit man can go be with God, but astral projection?

No. What I mean is, in your prayer life, you can be with the presence of God. All right?

You're not leaving your body and going to the throne of heaven, which is what they've been saying. And they're going into the throne room in the spirit realm, in the spirit body.

What does that sound like? Astral projection. Okay, well, no.

It's that same really nice book, Shadows of Supernatural Power, a prophetic measure for those who want to be moved by supernatural power.

Truth is progressive and multidimensional. This is going to get good.

This is on page 191. Truth is progressive and multidimensional.

This is New Age talk. Anyway, it constantly evolves as we grow, though it never evolves into something that contradicts its foundations.

There are measures and levels of anointing that cause the reality of the Scripture to change for us.

Wow. I guess it can mean whatever we want with no experiences. A generation is forming now that will walk in an anointing that has never been known by mankind, including the original disciples.

This generation won't need natural illustrations to help them understand what their spiritual task is. They will move into spiritual territory that defies natural order.

God wants to give us revelations and experiences of heaven that have no earthly parallel. Now, would you guys consider me to be some sort of watchdog?

Theologist. Examines things in the Christian church. Bad. Watch out. Tries to rely on that comparison.

And it does it, too. I was going to say, many of those who have noticed their passion for God wane have also received a fresh surge of faith that dispels their unbelief during meetings where the presence of God manifests in unusual ways.

Yet those who display anti -Christ attitudes that reject the Holy Spirit, a significant member of the

Unitarian Godhead, are wide open to the commentators who seek to prey upon fear and release a measure of control, calling themselves watchdogs over wrong theology.

Anti -Christ. We don't have the presence of God. Many of those who have noticed their passion for God wane.

The context, what are you talking about? These commentators often turn the faith of many into fear, into direct violation of the very scriptures they profess.

So what it's doing, it's called pointing the well. And what that is, is if anybody comes to you and says, you know,

I've been looking at the Word of God, I've been praying through this, and I'm concerned about what you're experiencing, it might not be biblical. You're a watchdog, you're a

Christian, you're a theologian. That kind of thing. And so what they're generically doing is inoculating people from being cross -examined.

And their experience is dominant over scripture. They're not allowed to submit their experience to scripture.

And there are people who are better at it than others. I'm better at it than a lot of people. But then there are some people better at it than me.

There are people who are better at manifesting grace and love and patience than I am.

I mean, a lot of my friends go out and stroke the shore. But yet, I'm better at some other things than others.

And, you know, we have our strengths. I'm a finger, you're a toe, he's an elbow, whatever.

Different members of the body of Christ. We need watchdogs. Because one of the jobs of the apostle is to guard the flock, which has the pastors to do that.

There's a whole set of quotes about the apostles and teachers together. You know, things like that. It's a good thing that they do.

They realize they're shooting themselves in the foot. But nevertheless, the job of the watchdog, if I dare call myself one of those,

I think I'd be a doorman probably. My other doorman, I think he'd be a shoemaker. I don't know about the watchdog, but maybe the kidneys are fooled.

Or maybe they should sue who knows. But you never know, okay?

I'll be flattered. You've never been a doorman or something like that? Okay. I'm sorry,

I didn't think that was fun. So, the thing is, we have to be able to be free to examine all things with the

Word of God. That's what I'm known for. It's one of my greatest compliments I've ever received. Seriously.

Man, I can check things again. I'm always right. But that's...

I try to measure all things by the Word of God, and all of us should be doing that.

Every one of us should be doing that with the best of our abilities, with sincerity of heart, before God.

That's what needs to be done so that we can understand what the truth is, so that we don't be led astray.

And that's the issue. Now, this is only the first level of stuff

I've found. I know there's a lot more and a lot of work stuff out there in the NIR. I've been doing research.

I've been doing this for weeks and weeks. And I intend to become sufficiently knowledgeable and be able to teach on it.

A lot. And of course, I'm going to release 10 or 20 articles. A couple, maybe more.

Including articles such as Is God Using the NIR? When the rest of the Christian church has said exactly that.

Can God use people who are whacked to accomplish his will? Absolutely.

Can he use a group that makes a lot of mistakes? Absolutely. He can.

And he does. But there's a real danger in here.

And you can see, you can hear. Something's not right. Something's amiss. And with about 400 million followers in this movement, it's hugely important.

Which is why I'm spending so much detailed time on it. Because it's hard to nail down. There's no one direct, repertory, descriptive statement of faith that they all come to and adhere to.

It's a mishmash of many people, many writers who don't always agree with each other.

And you have to read and read and read and listen and listen over and over and find the patterns.

Then group the patterns together and say, this is what's happening. It's a lot of work. Don't pray for me if I do this.

It's quite difficult to do. And sometimes I'll be sitting at my computer going through stuff and just I don't know,

I just turn on some music or I just go play a game of chess or whatever it is. Okay, I'm back.

And go right back into a group. It's tactile. There it is.

All right. And then we'll do Q &A. Well, Jesus, I thank you again for your work that is encompassed, that we can understand the true direction.

We can find truth. We ask that you would be with us in all who might hear what has been spoken of tonight.

That they be motivated to search the word and to learn what the word says.

Not emotions, not feelings. And look at the word of God. Because that is the standard of truth.

Lord Jesus, we ask that you be glorified in our numbers and that you would use the truth of your word to bring more people into your kingdom.

We ask this, Lord Jesus, in your precious holy name we all say, Amen. Amen. Thank you.