July 18, 2006

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation if you'd like to talk with dr.

White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the

United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

James white Don't worry about that phone number. No, we don't we need to worry about that one today because We are doing this on our own today.

Yes, I am I am looking through a glass window Darkly and There's nobody in the chair out there.

No what what I did you're getting a little little inside information here What it did is last week before rich left

For those you've been like hauling and stuff. There's a little thing on the website says offices are closed

We actually let rich get away for like one week a year. Okay, and so he's actually doing his thing and That's that's good thing.

He's with his family and they're having fun and and all as well so anyway Last week what

I did is I took my little digital camera which as you know, you know can do movies type things film video, whatever and he walked through everything you have to do and Getting it to this point wasn't too bad

I actually had to take a little card transfer the file over to my tablet PC and Then watch it on my tablet

PC so I could hear it and do everything and we did a dry run last night in fact, Milo Hudson Bueller Amazingly if I don't don't know how this happened, but Milo Hudson Bueller heard that we were doing a

Test with the server last night and Milo called in and I wish we'd recorded that because we had

It was you know One of the most exciting things in my life was the opportunity of interviewing Milo Hudson Bueller who everyone knows him

I mean second to Elvis Parsley, he's probably one of the best known Super rock stars out there and we had we had fun last night

But we got to this point now the trick I'll be honest with you The trick is going to be once we get done with the program because then

I've got to do all this stuff with mp3s and RAM files and Rename stuff and do all these things and that's going to be the real tough part

I will confess I don't have a whole lot of hope That I'm gonna get that right, but we'll try

I'll follow the little instructions and I'll try to watch the video and listen and We'll try to do our best

But if you don't hear this until next week is because I couldn't get it done and we had to wait for Rich to do It anyways, so we'll see what we'll see what happens

After the whole thing is over with but what that means is I could turn the phones on in fact That's how we had

Milo on last night was I turn the phones on but I can't I can't screen them and So who knows what in the world would result

I mean without screening the calls maybe Charles the brave would call in Maybe we should do it that way. I was just looking at a at a little hit piece.

You know that that Charles is So pathetic it's so pathetic What's it like to live your life?

With no other purpose than to just follow the people around and try to take shots at him I mean when you know you could never face that person.

You know you could never answer their questions You know you could never debate them. You know that you can never do anything positive with your life

What's it like to run around do that type of thing? I just I can't I can't even begin to imagine how pathetic a life that is and it's it's it's sad for Charles the brave but We ought to have that little thing from from Monty Python is his theme

Sir brave brave sir Robin Ran away, that's that's our that's our good buddy Charles But anyway, maybe he'd call in because I couldn't couldn't screen the calls, but we can't we can't do the phone call thing

So that's why I've got a bunch of other stuff lined up here we will be able to finish the the

Patterson Moller discussion and Then move on from there. I've got some Catholic answers stuff lined up here and all sorts of stuff

So we will be able to press on from that point as you may have noticed We didn't finish the

Patterson Moller discussion the last time because the phone calls started in so we'll be going to those but first I wanted to read you a

An email that came in recently from Jim Hafer ha fer maybe that's half her

Hafer. I don't know no way of knowing just by looking at it, but Those are two of the possibilities.

He's a local fella here and from the way describes himself. I should I should be very very afraid but Here's here's what the email says it says

Mr.. White I have been reading your debate with Dave Hunt, and I cannot believe how ignorant ignorant You are of God's Word.

I have spent my in three fields I imagine the word life was supposed to be in there someplace one self -defense while living and training with professional wrestlers

I Guess you would have to be good at self -defense if you're living and training with professional wrestlers number two weightlifting being the heavyweight champion of Arizona And one of the top -ranked nationally hmm and number three studying

God's Word early church fathers doctrinal history Etc you are extremely ignorant of God's truth

You make the same mistakes that all Calvinist make You are almost as ignorant of the truth as is

John MacArthur. Oh there you go You belong in the same category categories misspelled as Copeland Hagen and Kenyon You are also full of hate and anger and our most as our most

Calvinist You are sad signed Jim Hafer. Well at least Jim Signed it, and I have a feeling who gave him that book.

I think I think a member of my church I gave him that book And I I wrote back to him and asked if I could share his comments on my blog and respond to them

But then I said and by the way you think you might provide some you know specifics Or maybe you could call into the program when we have a skull or call screener anyways and give us some some specifics now

I personally am am just Extremely honored that he would say that I'm almost as ignorant of the truth as is

John MacArthur that that's a That's hype hype So anyway, there's

You know when I write to folks and and I you know I'm listening to Johnny Hunt right now talking to his youth for example, and At least

Johnny Hunts not like this guy You got to give Johnny Hunt credit he sort of takes the Adrian Rogers perspective and it can be very very kind and You know

I'm sure is a wonderful man but It's very clear. They don't listen to the other side and if I were to talk with with Johnny Hunt I'd love to have a chance to talk to Johnny Hunt.

I would I wouldn't approach him like this fellow approached me I would go you know brother hunt.

I'd like to talk to you a little bit about What John 6 says because he cites it he just misses the flow of the text

I'd like to sit down with you and look at that and and Have you considered this we considered this if you looked at this you know construction things like that and I would also ask him why he assumes that for knowledge and to for know mean the same thing and How does he explain the fact that when

God is the one doing the specific action of for knowing? That what is for known is all personal.

It's never just facts or events or even future events. It's it's persons How do you for know?

persons Especially before those persons come into existence How is that a divine action that then is paralleled with predestination and calling and justification glorification things like that so in other words?

My approach would be let's look at the specifics of the Word of God I've listened to what you've said and as I listen to what you've said these are the questions that come up in my mind given what the

Word of God says Almost never Now you know I suppose rich could be just hiding all these from me, but rich isn't here right now

So I'm seeing all the email almost never I mean rich only sends over to me the good stuff, and we get some bad stuff

We get some stuff. You just wouldn't believe in emails just and he doesn't even bother sending that stuff Doesn't waste my time with it, and I appreciate that But almost never is that the kind of approach that is taken in talking to us.

It's always just You're you Calvinist you're all mean and terrible and Nasty and horrible and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah and it it's it's not no, actually you need to look at this text in this text, and I've heard

I've honestly I Would I would have to struggle there might be once or twice over the past 15 years, but?

What I don't hear is somebody saying you know what I've listened carefully and in fact Here's I will demonstrate that I do know exactly what you're saying.

This is why you're saying it this is the consistency of what you're saying and Here's where I would disagree on this this and this and this is why

I come to this consistent Disagreement and here's how I put together. That's not what you get and If we've proven anything on this program as we have played

All sorts of people I mean we're equal opportunity We've played Ergon Kanner And we've played

Catholic answers and you know Jimmy Akin and Carl Keating and and Tim Staples and all those folks and and when we can find

Mormons addressing subjects we play them and and Every kind of Baptist and Dan corner and everything we've played a wide spectrum of folks

Dave Hunt you know in fact One of the one of the folks in my church dropped me a line

And there's something I need to listen to by Dave Hunt he recently addressed the question was the Good Samaritan a Calvinist And I'm I can't even figure out what that one's all about But I haven't had a chance to listen to it yet Maybe that'll end up on the dividing line as well, but we play a wide variety of people and The one thing that is consistent about all these people we play is

That they don't address the issue the way that we address the issue they don't come at it from listening carefully accurately representing what somebody else is saying and Then demonstrating where it simply doesn't follow from what the

Word of God says and that's that's an odd thing There's no no tways about oh, you're gonna get to hear all my computer sounds

Hear that yep, that was one of my little notepad thing. He's going over to the side I can't control that well.

I could actually not think about I could mute all my stuff But you know what this is live, and it's me myself and I today, so you're gonna get no

Fibby do not call in right now ignore M fibbo and channel Because he's saying telling people to call in ignore him because there's no one here to answer your phones

So somebody somebody slap him around a little bit, okay, and he'll love he'll get with the program eventually all right let's go back to the

Discussion we had finished with Patterson addressing a an issue and then dr. Moeller had an opportunity to to do so so here's a continuation

We're gonna have some good discussions about how that takes place, but it's it's still in in very narrow narrow confines

We're on very substantial common ground for instance when in your local church you send out an evangelism team

You don't say good luck You pray that God will open hearts and open minds now isn't he right there isn't he right?

I mean, I really I really appreciate what dr. Moeller says there If people were consistent in their theology, and if if Ergon Kanner was consistent for example and With with his omnibenevolence stuff and equality of opportunity stuff

Wouldn't it be much more logical to say good luck I Mean why do you pray that God would open hearts and minds what isn't that a violation of their libertarian free will?

Or are you just simply saying opening hearts and minds means he's he's Giving an entrance to but it's still gonna be up to them see there's the

God can't do anything about it He's and isn't he opening everyone's heart and mind equally How would it be that God would not work as hard on one person as on another person doesn't that deny omnibenevolence

If you adopt this this kind of viewpoint that it seems that the canners are intent upon adopting

It's heretical it makes no sense. You can't fit it in with Scripture. How in the world can you can you stand there and say?

Well God has shown absolutely equal love to every single person on the planet That that's not possible.

I Mean I keep using this illustration, but it's because it it seems so striking to me when

Israel is in Egypt There's that text that talks about how how

God is allowing the Iniquity of the Canaanites to be filled up and then when he brings

Joshua in what's his command to Joshua? Show mercy to these my my children whom

I love as much as Israel. No wipe them out man woman and child Time for judgment to come how do you fit that with some kind of?

Undifferentiated doctrine of omnibenevolence it doesn't absolutely makes no sense whatsoever And so if if if God is doing this equal opportunity thing and he's trying equally with every person then

Two things are clear a God can't save anyone by himself. That's just the way. He's set it up is probably what they would say secondly

That means that if you're saved it's because you were better than in some way shape or form those

That are not saved because God didn't God gave 100 % with you. He gave 100 % with them.

They're not saved you're saved therefore You're the one who made the difference you somehow were more susceptible to spiritual influences

You are kinder nicer more moral more intelligent something then the other people who are not safe and So all the glory has to go to you since you're the one who made the final determination

God's trying equal with everybody else, but the whole reason is really when people say well if you're a Calvinist Then why in the world would you ever pray?

Well, why do you pray I? Pray so that I can be changed. I'm not trying to make

God better. I'm I'm lining myself up with God's will But why in the world are you praying?

What do you what are you asking God to do you can't ask him to violate people's free will because that's you know

God's a Gentleman, you know we've all heard that one before So what are you asking him to do if he's already giving 100 % he can't give a hundred and one percent

I mean we sort of joke around with that You know I've got all these workout videos and stuff that I do and give a hundred and ten percent well a hundred and ten

Percent isn't really physically possible. You're that or a hundred percent is only ninety percent see So if God's doing everything he can

Then how can there be anything more for him to do? Why are you praying and molar has touched upon the reality that very frequently our prayers are significantly better than our theology?

And that's I think what he's saying here You know when we listen to ourselves pray We really do hear a strong confidence in the sovereignty of God and we when we listen to ourselves pray when we're we're praying

You know just just in recent days a woman speaking to me about her own brother, and how she was praying for his salvation

Well, we know what she's doing there I believe that that's the kind of prayer that God honors and And it's a prayer deeply rooted in the fact that she's praying that God will do a work in his heart through the

Holy Spirit to Call him to Christ We are compelled Commanded to go and preach the gospel we do so knowing that God does save sinners

And so you know when we go out to preach the doctrine of election is what should give us confidence to know

God really does save and It's it's not it's not just that we are supposed to be out there

You know doing marketing techniques to decide to whom we're going to share the gospel. We share the gospel with all persons everywhere

Knowing that God will bless the preaching of the gospel Agree a thousand percent that that's exactly right.

We do not need to know the identity of the elect Many of the worst arguments put forward by those who oppose reform theology

Assume that we do know the identity like we do not know their identity and so we can have boldness to proclaim the gospel to all and that that's just that's just It takes a tremendous amount of pressure off of Individuals to try to get people to do something

That they don't want to do and to try to take the place the Holy Spirit and bring conviction and bring spiritual life

Dr.. Patterson dr. Molo. This is a follow -up question. That's not on the list here But for our listeners here today

Could one of you maybe share a little of how these two strains of theological thought have been a part of our heritage and thinking about the

Charleston Association of the Sandy Creek Association maybe just to give a little history of how this has been ongoing throughout our existence as I've often said there are basically two rivers are two

Smaller rivers that run into the larger River of Southern Baptist life one of them is the Charleston tradition which was more

Calvinistic and One of them is a Sandy Creek tradition located right down below us here

And by the way, you should all stay over a day and take a trip down and see the sandy old

Sandy Creek Church Located just about 30 miles south of us here, and it's well worth the journey down that Sandy Creek tradition was much more revivalistic was

Less Calvinistic though To be perfectly fair about the whole matter.

It was certainly a long way from being Armenian. I just note that I'm not going to any any detail on this, but Gene Bridges has mentioned some of the errors in trying to make these two different streams as if they were

Completely different, and I've heard other people say it at least you know Patterson knows better, and he knows that That there was there really wasn't any

Buddy who was completely Isolated from Reformed theology,

I mean it was just You couldn't get away from it because you can't get away from the Bible and So that that's what's being referenced right there because the

Sandy Creek statement of faith is Has a very Calvinistic strain to it also so these two streams though one revivalistic and one

That was I would say somewhat more reformed flowed in to the river that made up Southern Baptists Where Southern Baptists were so different than Baptists in England is that we've been able to keep that together

Without such a falling out that we ruined ourselves in England the particular

Baptist Eventually did become anti missionary and anti evangelistic

While the general Baptist on the other hand advocating a general atonement, which I would argue far

But the general Baptist cut loose from the particular Baptist doctrinal emphases became

Universalist and even God forbid Unitarians and so the splitting of the two did them no favors well

I Don't know if there's a real parallel. I mean, let's let's realize even to this day when

I was over at speaking the Metropolitan Tabernacle Last week some of the statistics that I heard were rather interesting

And and you've got to realize that folks over in the UK a lot of them look over here at us in the

United States And they go what do you people have to complain about? You've got church on every corner a large um,

I don't know three four times as many people as far as percentage of population go to church regularly

United States as in the United Kingdom and the United Kingdom's in better shape than Europe is as far as that goes and The secularization of those nations has been underway a lot longer.

It has been here And so I don't I don't know that those are really fair comparisons and certainly

Particular Baptists in the UK to this day. I mean look at look at the folks at the Metropolitan Tabernacle They had they had people in speaking

Who are very missionary minded very much a part of missions work very evangelistic

They have I I spoke in the the gospel service of the Edmonton Baptist Chapel and they have an entire service

That is just that it is it is a gospel presentation service and they do things a little bit differently over there

And so I I don't think that's a fair a fair view certainly you can you have

Hyper -Calvinist and you have people to go that direction. There's imbalance It doesn't speak to anything any more than the fact that there were

Baptists who became Well, what's the one thing that these folks love to keep bringing up? Johnny Hunt brings it up Patterson brings up but the charismatic controversy of the 70s and 80s

Well, you had Baptists that went that direction. Is that somehow prove something about Baptist theology or something? I don't think so So, I don't

I just don't see it that's really a solid comparison and push them in opposite directions that were very unfortunate

Thank God in Southern Baptist life. We have iron sharpened iron as dr motor mentioned just a moment ago, and we have helped one another and Those who are of a more

Calvinistic persuasion have helped The soul winners to be sure their language was biblical and and that their practices were biblical

And on the other hand those who were the evangelist and the soul winners their passion has been shared with their

Calvinistic brethren and the two have worked together by the grace of God, that'll be the the tone of the future and If we allow

Satan to have his way will divide up over it as we certainly should not well, and you know people obviously

Probably start thinking about questions like the the canner saga that has been going on at that point and I simply point out

That for quite some time one of us was referring to the others as our brothers

And we're not being treated as such it took quite some time for me to give up on that that approach itself

I I would much rather have the conversation with Arrogant canner in October to be more along these lines at least as far as the tone is concerned though I do wish there was much more interaction

Especially on a biblical level in this particular interest in this particular discussion than there actually was now

I would simply add to that and a fine historical review there and very very

Proximate as we consider Sandy Creek here in Charleston to our south, but this is a living history

We're here because the Lord has brought Southern Baptist to a particular point in history again.

This is God's sovereignty We don't we don't exist as a denomination because we deserve to We know better than that But I think one of the healthiest parts of what's going on here is that we're talking about one of the greatest doctrines of the

Christian Faith we're talking about what is Confessed in our confession of faith and made clear and taught in our church is what undergirds the gospel, but what's really important?

And I think dr. Patterson one of the things that makes our situation Categorically different than that in Great Britain is we're talking about this as we're doing it

The you know, it would be insidious and wrong for Southern Baptist to say hey, let's stop witnessing And let's put a moratorium on missions until we talk all this out

That is not what's going on here We are here to do the business of the convention to put more missionaries on the field and to plant more gospel churches and to Encourage each other to be more fervent and faithful and evangelism as we are doing that It's good for us to talk about what the gospel is as a matter not only of our friendship

But of our accountability to the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and to the scripture which we have so Hard fought to define as that inerrant infallible

Word of God. So this is healthy It's a sign as I said in my opening comments of theological health

Some people get a little in fact in the local church associations and the SPC pastors meeting some people say well, you know

We need to stay away from issues of controversy Generally speaking. The only thing we're talking about is the issues of controversy

Find out what is the itch and Scratch it with a mutual accountability to the

Word of God and go and talk about these issues of substance and do it as You're witnessing to the lost

In light of what you're saying, dr Moll, let me read question number nine for those who are putting this up on the screen

Because of the controversy around this issue how much of the pastors view on election should be part of their teaching

Is it a good idea for a teacher to defend or attack one view of election in a

Sunday morning pulpit? Well, generally speaking the categorical rule is the pastor agrees with me should speak and if he does not he should remain silent

No, let me say that I think this question originates in a genuine problem

Where should the doctrine of election be addressed explicitly where scripture addresses it

What we desperately need in this denomination is a wholesale return to expository verse -by -verse teaching

And that means as a matter of accountability We're going to have to preach the text that otherwise are resistably skipped by an awful lot of preachers

Who don't want to have to deal with these things if you have if you're committed to verse -by -verse Exposition then let the word do this thing and just preach the word don't bring any agenda into it on the other hand

We are have an obligation as preachers to help people to understand the big picture And so this should be just a part of the healthy teaching ministry of the church.

I would say this. I Want to be known for my commitment to the gospel of the

Lord Jesus Christ I I don't want to wear a label so that the first thing someone says about me is this is his doctrine of election

The doctrine of election is sweet and precious God has given it to us and revealed it to us so that we might know him and might glorify him in the knowledge of his electing purpose

But that is in order that we would understand the preeminence of Christ The glory of the cross and the grace and mercy of a

God who loves us so much that he sent his only son to die for us in one sense a lot of these doctrinal issues

Absolutely important serve as the foundation and as the the girders the superstructure of the building

But what we want people to see is the fullness of the building and that is the glory of the gospel and the glory of Christ I'd just like to add two things.

I agree there. They got motor just said I just like to expand it just this much It's imperative that we preach the whole counsel of God folks, that's right and Even if you do expository preaching if you choose your book carefully, you may be able to avoid certain subjects

We're responsible for preaching over a lifetime of preaching the whole Bible all out on every bit of it and it is a substantive mistake to think that we can do anything else and have a

Biblically literate people and so I want to underscore what dr Moeller said and add an exclamation point at the end of it.

Finally, let me just say it's also Inconceivable to me that the preacher would have any secret doctrine

That he didn't make crystal clear to his people if he believes something to be the case He needs to preach it openly and honestly anything else is a failure of integrity agree with both speakers very much at that point and This gives you a good taste.

There is only about I think about 10 or 12 more minutes a question on open theism came up, but That was the the nature of the conversation

I felt that again it was pretty much what I expected it to be as far as a

Very friendly encounter, but not one where you have a lot of in -depth biblical discussion you don't really you're not really to get anything accomplished there as far as Coming to some conclusions on whether a certain text can be taken away one side or the other is taking it

I would love to hear Dr. Moeller and dr. Patterson discussed the meaning of foreknowledge for example

Or what does it mean that no man is able to come to me unless father sent me draws him? Could we could we discuss that could we?

Demonstrate the John 1232 has nothing to do with this and could we? Actually, you know walk through the text and see that if you say all men are drawn

That means all men are gonna be raised up that kind of thing. It's it's very rare to get that to happen That's why

I've been saying from the start I would love to go to each one of Eric and Cantor's classes at Liberty University on Tuesday the 17th and Walk in there with nothing

But a Greek New Testament and discuss John 6 and go through it point by point by point the chances that happening are significantly less than the chances of the

Arizona Cardinals winning the Super Bowl this year, but it's something that I've certainly Laid out there and would be be willing to do this would normally be the point where we take a commercial break so I will act like a commercial announcer here and Remind you of our upcoming conference in Orlando the pulpit crimes conference, which we would like to invite you to attend folks like Tom Askew will be there and myself and Steve camp and you can meet the the

Omnipresent Michael Fallon who makes all these things happen though there as well and walk up to him give him good smack on the back and thanks for all your hard work and Of course the crew is coming right afterwards

Beautiful Veen Dom the Holland America Veen Dom down into the Caribbean and Of course the big thing going on right before the cruise and the conference is the debate with John Shelby Spong I would like to once again encourage all of you to be in attendance at that debate if you possibly can be those of you

Who have never been to a debate? You may think in listening to mp3s or even watching

DVDs that you really get the sense of a debate from that The information is the same however

The the context and the atmosphere can just never be the same

Unless you're there. I think most people who have been to a couple of them and then seen others via DVD or just listen by mp3 will tell you there's something about being there and The people that were at the

Barry Lynn debate were at a debate that the the context and the the ambience the environment will never be able to be reproduced and So I imagine this is going to be a tremendously interesting encounter between myself and John Shelby Spong.

He is an entertaining speaker. We are coming from about as far Apart from one another as we possibly can.

I know that I Know that it's going to be incumbent upon me to do the translation work.

That is in my experience Bishop Spong has a hard time

Really Communicating with someone as conservative as I am

I Think that most the time he does not believe that we would listen To him.

I have been listening to him and we'll be doing more listening as we get closer to the debate I do know where he's coming from.

I know what he thinks is real scholarship over against pseudo scholarship and There's he's going to have a lot of supporters there.

I very much believe That there will be far more people in support of his position than there were at the

Barry Lynn debate by a factor of ten or more and So I would very much

I have been saying please do not make plans to go to Lynchburg As much as you might want to try to sneak in there you have no guarantee that you could be able to get in it's not gonna be a controlled situation and We will find the time to discuss what took place when we get to the pulpit crimes

Conference in Orlando just about two weeks later so please don't make that kind of Plan if you're going to make a plan if you're going to do something what would help us the most and support us the most would be to be a part of the

Pulpit crimes conference and to support us in that way. And so that would be my

My request for you to do so and that is our commercial break Which when you're doing this all by your lonesome, you just sort of continue on and do your thing now this next

Thing I'm gonna be playing for you this next clip section. Well, it's good grief. It's almost an hour long Obviously not gonna get it done today, but gonna get started on it.

I really really really thought and Maybe should have I just you know having to do this on my own and with everything else going on I just didn't have the time to do it.

What I wanted to try to do is try to find the time to go through this and to edit out certain elements of it just very

Would not have in any way shape or form have touched on the actual meaning of what was being said Just edit out certain phrases

So that you wouldn't know exactly where this individual is coming from and Then play it for you and The whole reason would be to demonstrate a point that I've made over and over again.

I am NOT making the Genetic fallacy

I am NOT saying that because Two different theological perspectives say similar words that that means that they are somehow necessarily connected

I certainly have studied the King James only movement enough to know the danger of the genetic fallacy and how many how many times people argue about oh well

You use the Westcott and Hort text or the modern texts Are indebted to Westcott and Hort and they were terrible horrible nasty people and therefore you are too

You know that kind of silly argumentation is is is I think beneath anyone who would name the name of Christ?

You you just don't engage in that kind of irrationality however, I have made the statement many times and it is a true statement and You have you can only take it so far

But you need to take it as far as it is allowed to be taken logically and truthfully That the non -reformed quote -unquote evangelical

Agrees against the Reformers with Roman Catholics on the issue of the nature of man the nature of sin and not in the sense of different kinds of sin mortal venial, but the fact that sin does not actually enslave us so that our a

Libertarian free will is enslaved and no longer libertarian and the nature of grace the idea that grace

Can try but grace can fail to bring about salvation

Will a man the grace of God the modern Non -reformed or anti -reformed neo -evangelical like Charles the chicken -hearted brave are much more comfortable with Roman Catholicism Than they are with John Calvin some of you noticed for example the current blog article on My site where I quote all these statements from someone who is an

Aryan anti -trinitarian Denies substitutionary atonement holds to more of a governmental moral viewpoint of the of the atonement and obviously detests the concept of the sovereignty of God divine decree predestination election and I made you click twice to be able to track down who this was and it was

Martin Luther King and Most people are not aware of the fact that Martin Luther King on a theological level was a heretic that would not have been allowed to to stand in the pulpit of of an

Orthodox Church most people are not aware of that and you're not supposed to say anything about that because You know

I guess in our country now you can't even discuss what's heresy and what's not without you know Everybody getting all upset, but I just linked directly to his own paper.

You can read it for yourself and and go from there That kind of theology that kind of teaching

It's out there, and it's very very very common Much more in common, and it's hatred of reformed theology with Rome than with anything else and We need to be able to say these things point these things out and so anyway the

I Want to play this and? Do it that way so that you could just hear it for yourself and and realize wow man this guy sounds like a

Dan corner type guy, but he's not a Dan corner type guy. He is actually a Roman Catholic and it seems

I he's fairly new to me, but I jumped onto the Catholic comm website and found out that He has been on Catholic answers, and I've downloaded that program fact

June 26th I believe it was he was on the first hour and then Dave Armstrong was on the hour after that Which will definitely need to take some time to listen to that one as well.

It should be interesting But this fellow Well you know what let me see here, let's

Let's let The the Catholic answer let's let Jerry usher introduce this guy.

I mean again flying by the seat of our pants here We're just doing this live

Let's see if we can find the introduction to him here, and we're off and running on a new week of broadcast It's Monday good to have you with us

Jerry usher here your host for the next two hours And we're gonna spend a lot of time in the Bible in our number two

Dave Armstrong will join us And we'll look at a biblical evidence for the communion of Saints look at that in this hour

We have another installment of our series with John Martinoni called scriptural apologetics

And what we're gonna do here in the fury at least in the first segment of the program is

Take a look at where Mary is in the Bible our Blessed Mother now. We know she's mentioned in a few John Martinoni that's that's the fellow biblical apologetics and what

I find interesting is it almost seems to me as if Martinoni is

Trying to take up where the sort of slip into the vacuum left

By Jerry Matta ticks leaving Orthodox Roman Catholicism for those of you who don't know

Jerry Matta ticks whom I have debated debated many times has become a Well a full -blown heretic from the

Roman Catholic perspective That is he he no longer believes that there have been any valid ordinations the priesthood since Vatican II and so that would lead to set a vacant ISM and The seat is empty and and all the rest of this stuff

And you know we we knew starting as far back as the you know 1990 or so that he

In 1991 that he had these Traditionalist leanings he is he denied it for a long time so he could continue speaking in Roman Catholic churches

But now that's pretty much over with and in fact James Swan wrote to me this morning, and he had attended a talk that Jerry gave at a

Holiday Inn Somewhere back in New Jersey on all of these various sundry issues that he is

So passionate about these days, but he no longer represents Orthodox Roman Catholicism. I think the same could be said of Robertson Janice in many ways as well and so it but but remember, and I've I'm sure

I've told the story before but Many many moons ago when I debated Jerry on the subject of papacy at the

City of the Lord in Tempe, Arizona December of 1990 That debate was moderated by The well -known

Scott Hahn before he was as well known as he is today and One of the things that Han Han was very upset at the end of the debate he did not like how it had gone and he'd gotten rather well for our side and and he in front of Everyone who was streaming forward to talk to Jerry afterwards in front of all these people and in front of myself he turned to his good buddy that he he joined the church with and He said to him

You blew it because you used the Bible as your only authority and you can't do that and that was you know, that was what

Jerry tried to do, you know, his ministry is called biblical foundations and and The the strength of his talks was he wouldn't turn

Protestants off instantly by starting by quoting some obscure Roman Catholic theologian or some

Document of a barely known church council or something and immediately lose the audience he because he was trained in in Protestantism and he gained his knowledge of the

Bible outside of Roman Catholicism meaning that he knows a lot more about it than most priests do he

Would play to his strength and he would give biblical presentations now the accuracy of his presentations was another issue

Obviously and that's some of the stuff that I brought up in my debates with him But still for most folks just listening to him with his very confident rapid -fire style

Very impressive, but he's gone as far as Roman Catholics are concerned. He's no longer really relevant on that on that scene

And it seems like Martin Oni is trying to slip into that vacuum and as are some others in presenting this biblical allegedly biblical defense of Roman Catholicism and So some of you know that just a couple weeks ago or sometime last week, maybe it was even

Thursday I Read you the note that was sent. I was sent seven CDs a guy by the name of Jay Lee Jay is the initial and I I would love to talk with mr.

Lee I Forgot to ask rich before he headed out whether we had an address I could do so But June 21st 2006 to James White this was what got me to listen to this

Here are seven CDs from a great Catholic apologist associated with EWTN I don't think you stand a chance in refuting him.

So I figured you would like to meet your match He has already eaten your lunch so listen and weep listen to one saved always saved first because of Mary and Jesus Jay Lee and so, of course

I Burned the CD to mp3 and stuck it in one of my multiple mp3 players

I have multiple ones because I have like the one I was playing the music on before the program started is a nice one

That you do not want to sweat all over I live in Phoenix, Arizona, and it it's hot right now

And so I need to have some of them sports mp3 players that are a little bit more hardy than others

Stick it in the back back pocket while riding or rowing or lifting weights

Whatever else it might be that we are doing to beat up this this old body of ours to keep it in shape

So anyway, I listened to it and I'm riding along and just going Yeah, read it and weep

Okay, yeah eating my lunch you bet So yeah, everybody

I knew this was gonna happen as soon as I said that it's hot here Everybody else in the country is going it's hot here too. I know it is

In fact, I heard it that it's hotter in many places in in the

Nation right now than it is in Phoenix. That's correct. However Take the heat you have right now

Start it in May and end it in October and then you've got Phoenix Okay, it's one thing to have a week's worth of really bad heat and then it cools off in Phoenix It's been over a hundred since the end of May sometimes it starts as early as April I remember doing a race once tour to Phoenix first we get in April hit 104 that day and It doesn't let up well 2003

October 23rd is 103 for the height and So it's the length of time that gets to you and if it cools off at all at night right now, you're very very fortunate because Last I think

Thursday. Yeah Thursday when I rode South Mountain the high was the low was 94 degrees

So that was as cool as it got when you got started and so well, anyway, that's where the difference is

All right, so we're gonna listen to mr. Martin Oni Demonstrating why if you believe the

Bible That you cannot believe in one saved all the same now before we do that let's

Let's step back and go. All right, if as mr. Lee says This guy

I don't stand a chance in refuting him and that he's eaten my lunch Then what are we going to hear?

well We would and in fact if If we were doing something if we were doing well think about some of the books are out there

Look at Eric Svensson's work. Look at my work. Look at the Bill Webster's work if we were addressing let's let's pick a

Unique Roman Catholic teaching like purgatory. All right, what would you expect from us?

Well, you would expect first of all a an accurate representation of what the dogmatic stance of Rome is on the subject of purgatory, right and And you'd expect us to understand the relationship of purgatory to such concepts as temporal and venial sins penances indulgences the thesaurus meritorium and all the related things that that go into the concept of forgiveness and temporal punishment of sins and and the necessity of cleansing before entering the presence of God and all these other things that are required to have an accurate knowledge of the doctrine of purgatory and We'd need to be able to go into the what the

Bible says and what the Bible says about the atonement and and bearing of sins and and the particular passages

That are utilized by Roman Catholics in in this particular subject and anyone who wants to find out whether I've done that or not

I suggest you look at the debate with father Peter Stravinsky's Editor of the Catholic answer and find out whether that's the case.

That's how we would approach it because if you're going to do Apologetics you need to do it accurately, right?

That's how you honor He who is the truth so if we're going to hear from From mr.

Martin Noni about Once saved always saved then what's what are we going to do?

Okay, everybody in the channel is telling me You know, I can't hear you

I can't hear there's nothing possible that I can do about that I'm in here the feeds out there if the if it went down Fine, you know, we're gonna we're gonna finish up when we got 12 minutes left and put it on the archive and we'll go from there

But there's absolutely nothing whatsoever that I can do about that. So everybody just stop flooding the channel.

Oh, it's good. It's good You know just everybody calm down spray some Valium around in there.

Everybody calm down. Okay so What I was trying to say was If you're going to discuss one saved all was saved then what are you going to be what are you gonna have to do you're gonna have to recognize that there is a

Version of that doctrine that is based upon antinomianism. It's based upon a a

Got your ticket punched cheap grace viewpoint that for example would be represented by Zane Hodge or Bob Wilk and people like that and That that is not mainstream

It's maybe very popular but it's not mainstream as far as theologians go and then you're gonna have to understand the difference between that and a reformed doctrine the perseverance of the

Saints and What those differences are and you have to address those if you're going to be honest about it and and see what the difference the different perspectives really are and then you're going to need to lay out what the foundation of this is the foundation of of a meaningful doctrine of perseverance is union with Christ The doctrine of election and predestination the perfection of the atonement

The fact that God is the one who saves God brings spiritual life, etc. Etc, right?

Is that what we get? Well, let's let's find out Tonight our topic is once saved always saved

Of these talks that I've been giving this this is probably the most difficult one to prepare for There is just Quite a range of arguments that you could use to counter this doctrine of once saved always saved and there's there's any number of directions

You can come from to show that this is a false Doctrine and another reason this talk was so difficult to prepare for was that there is just so much

Scripture that you can use to refute the doctrine of once saved always saved

There is passage after passage after passage from the Bible that either directly contradicts

The doctrine of once saved always saved or that make absolutely no sense at all if that doctrine is true

I had over a hundred and twenty -five scripture citations written down on my notepad

Before I finally had to just close the Bible I could still be writing down scripture passage from which to draw on for this talk

And then I had the task of trying to decide which of these 125 am

I going to use because all of them were very relevant But I can't include 125 scripture passages in one talk.

We would be here till about 2 in the morning So tonight I'll try to summarize just a few of the arguments against once saved always saved

And I'll try to arm you with as much scripture as possible within reason as you've probably noticed by now

My talks are pretty much based solely on scripture. I don't use sacred tradition

I don't quote the early church fathers. I could but I don't and that's why

I say it seems like he's Sort of trying to take over the the

Jerry Matta ticks mantle at this point But having listened to all of this I would simply say that he's not nearly as convincing a speaker as mr.

Matta ticks. I don't believe that he has the same level of background that Jerry is able to at least draw on whether he consistently uses it or not as another issue, but So it doesn't work as well.

And the fact the matter is that if you're going to be a consistent Roman Catholic There's nothing you can do about the fact that those select the selective use of the early church fathers and The Dogmatic Framework provided by the

Roman Catholic Church Determines what your exegesis actually is going to be You you can't come to exegetical conclusions that are contradictory to the dogmatic statements of the church

And so you can say well, I'm not going to quote those things, but at least be honest and saying however my

Interpretation of these things is in fact determined by those external

Sources that are that are out there So I think that needs to be kept in mind because my purpose is to show Catholics and non -catholics

But especially I want to show Catholics that not only is their faith Bible based

But it is the only faith which takes into account the totality of Scripture now

Let's keep that in mind. There's an important claim that we can hold him to in reference to The totality of Scripture not just a portion of Scripture, but the totality of Scripture All of what

Scripture says and that means interpreting it in context we use the whole book

We don't just pick out a passage here and there and focus on on these Individual passages to the neglect or outright exclusion of other scripture passages well both sides accuse the other of it

Comes down to being able to prove which side is being more consistent which by the way is the function of cross -examination

In debate, and that's why we really need to try to have it. We use the entire book the

Bible Now this doctrine of once saved always saved. What exactly does that mean?

well, basically those who believe in this doctrine believe that once a person accepts

Jesus Christ into their hearts as Their personal Lord and Savior Once they pray the sinner's prayer, and they confess with their lips that Jesus is

Lord and believe on Jesus in their hearts Once the person does that then that person is saved

There you go that gives you a real good idea immediately of exactly what kind of evangelicalism

Mr.. Martin Oni has been exposed to or Comes out of as far as his background goes honest

I don't even know what his background is as of yet He has a testimony tape and so I may take the time to listen to that but yeah as it may you have very clearly there a a

Surface level evangelicalism. There's nothing here about the decree of God. There's nothing here about God's purposes in Christ There's nothing here about the unit the uniting of the elect with Christ their death with him burial resurrection

Nothing about the golden chain of redemption Foreknown predestined call justified glorified all that stuff is gone.

It's all focused on the center It's all focused upon a quote -unquote sinner's prayer got your ticket punched.

You're going to heaven. That's all there is type stuff now does that mean that a large portion of This presentation will in fact be irrelevant to where I'm coming from yes

There will be certain statements that are made And that you know are worth

Addressing from my perspective, but the majority of it is addressed at a surface level

Arminian neo -evangelical style Viewpoint that as we noted earlier is much more in common with mr.

Martin Oni's view of the will of man grace and it is with the Reformers and so What does that mean it means theology matters and it matters in apologetics as well, and here's a good example of it

That person has a one -way ticket to heaven and there is absolutely nothing that can derail that train

In other words heaven is guaranteed one has as they put it absolute assurance that they will go to heaven and What is the absolute assurance is it in us or is it in the absolute assurance the fact that God Cannot fail to bring about His own purposes in Christ.

I mean again This takes us right back to the to a real issue. Why is it that so many?

so many Especially Southern Baptists for example believe in eternal security, but they don't believe in God's purpose

In election, there's I'm sorry, but there's no consistent way to hold those two things together

If it is my free will to get into this relationship, then it's my free will to get out of this relationship

There's just no way to argue that well And yes, how many people do

I mean Norman Geisler does the large portion of those that we played from the Southern Baptist Convention?

that's what they were saying and Yet the only solid ground upon which you can base the perseverance of the

Saints or eternal security or any other terminology you want to use Is the perfection of the work of Christ in their behalf and the sovereignty of God and bring them into that relationship

There's no other ground that you can come up with in that type of a context

This doctrine of once saved always saved is a corollary to the doctrine of sola fide, which means salvation by faith alone

Now at that point I would happen to agree with him but only once again from a reformed perspective in other words if you recognize that sola fide is speaking about salvation as a divine work and if you recognize that what we're really talking about here is a a faith gift a gift of faith and That's a divine faith then yeah, they're directly related

But there's a disjunction if you're looking about the air at the Armenian viewpoint Because you can have all sorts of false faith that actually saves you and then doesn't keep you and all the rest that kind of stuff

So we'll continue looking at mr. Martin Oni's discussion of the subject of once saved always saved because remember

He's he's already Cleaned my clock and what was the other stuff and that don't stand a chance

Eating your lunch. That's right. Well, I'm about to go have lunch. So I hope he hasn't actually eaten it Anyway, Lord willing we will be here

Thursday I'll be flying solo again, but we'll continue on with our review then. Thanks for listening.

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