Cultish - Mormonism, Temple Marriage, & Life Beyond the Veil

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00:00

Welcome back to cultish everybody. It is the super sleuth here flying solo.

00:05

Where is Jerry? Have you guys seen him? I didn't see him. I was at the studio today looking for him.

00:11

I you know, I looked under the couch. I looked everywhere He was nowhere. Yeah, he's little he's nowhere to be found

00:19

He's out doing things maybe like last time. Maybe he went out looking for some UFOs I don't know, but I do have some wonderful guests with us today in the studio

00:29

I have AJ. How you doing? Yep, and I have Brandy. Hello yeah, and they're they have a beautiful story of coming to know the true and living

00:37

God and Coming to know one another as well through that story So we have them here today and we want we want to get to know them more and we want to hear their story

00:45

So we're gonna we're gonna start with AJ AJ what where did you come from? That's a mystery of where did

00:53

I come from? Yeah. Oh, man So I was actually born in California and I moved to Arizona when

01:00

I was still in first grade Younger, but I was born into the Mormon Church. My parents converted when so my dad started

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Getting involved with the church when he was like 15 16 and then When him and my mom got married

01:17

She joined the church as well. And then so when I was born, I was born into the church We were sealed in the

01:23

Oakland Temple. Oh, wow, Oakland. Yeah, man from the streets Yeah, so so your dad was a he was essentially the first generation

01:32

LDS in your family because you said yeah, I do it 15 16 Yeah, so he had kind of a rough family life growing up and I don't really remember exactly how he got involved with the church

01:43

But somebody one of his friends or whatever invited him so he used to go to a lot of the outdoor activities and a lot of the youth stuff and so that kind of is what got him away from Kind of the bad upbringing that he originally had and and you know helped helped him you know,

02:01

I think As much as we talk about the Mormon Church and stuff. I do think that There are some good things that that do come from at least having that kind of right atmosphere and and for my dad at least

02:14

I think that it really helped him through a hard time in his life to Kind of get out of you know bad behavior get away from bad

02:23

Influences and of course and all that stuff. He's the first member of our of our family to go to college and those kinds of things so You know, he did

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Achieve a lot. But yeah, it definitely It was the he was the first one.

02:39

Yeah Okay So what what are some of the memories you have growing up like, you know growing up in an LDS family?

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Tell us about that kind of bring us into your world. You brought me this I did. Yeah today Maybe I'll put it like right here.

02:51

So maybe it'll be in focus. This is The my baptism activity in memory book So how old are you when you get when you get baptized?

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So when you get baptized in the Mormon Church, you're eight okay, yeah, and so Yeah, there's not a lot filled out

03:06

I don't think I was super Well, you're eight. Yeah. Yeah, so It's still very interesting if you notice there's like spots to fill in like the first Presidency and all the high priests and things and the leadership of the church

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Because they really want you to know that and what really struck me when I found that was

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The some of the scriptures they tried to kind of tie in. I thought that was interesting but growing up in the

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Mormon Church was I would say probably very different than how Kids grow up in the

03:42

Mormon Church today Hmm So when I was a kid, we weren't we were not allowed to have soda really at all

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Like anything with caffeine in it was a was a no -go Like not even a question, right?

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We could have root beer though And I remember going to Costco and getting like the dad's root beer for like 50 cents that was like my favorite thing ever and then

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Like we couldn't go swimming on Sundays Sabbath Yeah, also

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I think they teach you not to go swimming from what I've heard anyway, I didn't go on a mission but From other missionaries that you're not allowed to go swimming as a missionary like the whole time

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Really? Yeah interesting from what I was told it was like I don't know like Satan has dominion over the over the waters or something like that And there's been like stories of missionaries that like almost drowned

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During their mission because of going swimming or whatever weird. So it's like this weird like supernatural. Yeah I'm going on with swimming.

04:40

Yeah, but you remember thing is really interesting to you because in Islam like they believe the same thing

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And when I was deployed to Iraq the Saddam's like palace was actually like in a moat

04:52

Surrounded by water and they believe that like Allah can't see Like in water because like it's kind of like the same kind of similarities like they would commit evil

05:02

Like over or within water because like Allah couldn't see so like hearing that when

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I joined the Mormon Church I was like, that's really interesting because Wow what

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I learned when I was in Iraq about the Islam faith Wow, that is extremely interesting

05:19

That is like blowing my mind a little bit Yeah, I'm kind of curious if I haven't had a chance to really talk to Dan Tate at all

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But I'm curious if that was something that he or if they told him that while he was in MTC or any that stuff

05:30

I'm kind of curious. So yeah. Wow. Yeah, we'll definitely get you in touch with Dan Tate. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, that would be really cool to see a conversation happen about that because I'm sure there's lots of similarities that you guys would have

05:43

Growing up, especially being in an LDS family. Yeah, and I would say so The the big difference

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I think between like my family and other other kids that I knew I was allowed to have some non -mormon friends because my parents were converts

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And so the way they looked at things was kind of you know Well, if we were converts like if we didn't, you know

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If we didn't interact with any other non Mormons, then you know, who else would who else would convert to Mormonism, right?

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It's an outreach opportunity kind of yeah, and so I did grow up having you know The occasional but for the most part my main group of friends all came from church.

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Okay, and that's kind of how I saw it right, it wasn't like Like as a Christian now the way that I look at my faith in Jesus and the way that I view

06:30

Everything it's it's not really about going to church or it's not I don't call it church, right? I call it, you know being a

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Christian or whatever but for for growing up as a Mormon It was always like oh, yeah, my friends are members of the church.

06:42

We're part of the church We're you know, we're gonna go to church. We're one with the fold. Yeah. Yeah, it's like a great group thing

06:47

I'm checking off boxes almost. Yeah. Yeah, and So there was those things. I mean

06:52

I was a Boy Scout So I did that that whole thing and that was an interesting Some interesting experiences the people that they let around children

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Let's see, what else I mean, I don't know there's a lot of weird stuff that I can so So, how do you think it differs from the the

07:10

LDS person now, like you were saying earlier that well I think for sure the one thing would be like the caffeine stuff, right?

07:16

Okay. I think there's that I think that Most likely. Oh, here's the other thing too when

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I was growing up. They were very very Adamant about making sure that we knew that Mormons were not like other

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Christians Oh, okay made it very clear that we are different. We're separate we are Mormons, we're not

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Christians. We're Mormons, right and they don't have the truth. We have the truth You know what? I mean? It's a very us first them kind of thing

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Yeah, and now it's kind of this weird blend of where you know

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We've even encountered Christians Who thought that Mormons were

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Christians and I brandy even had an experience where she got yelled at by a girl

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Yeah, really so so I think that's one of the bigger things and even actually my my

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Nieces For my niece told my son that they were Christian. Oh, wow. Yeah, and he was like, what do

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I say? I'm like, ah, man, like ask them if you could call yourself a Mormon. That's what I said Right, you know it's kind of like You know at this point,

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I think we just want him to be able to have a relationship with his cousin So it's like I don't we don't want to get you to like be too, you know, cuz he'll he's he'll just a stage

08:40

Yeah, you guys are wrong you guys aren't doing the right thing you're going to hell like kill your son

08:46

Oh, yeah, man. How old is he? He's nine. He's nine. Okay. He's got that nine -year -old spunk to him

08:51

Oh, yeah, he'll just he just says things. Yeah. Yeah. So Wow. Yeah, I've noticed that we do a lot of outreach to the

08:57

LDS wards in the community So you'll find different generations of LDS and I do find it very odd when they they bring up there

09:04

Well, your truth is your truth. My truth is my truth. We believe this about Christ You can even go through the deity of Christ and how the deity of Christ and the

09:12

LDS Organization differs than that of biblical Christianity and at the same time they go

09:17

Well, your truth is your truth. Mine is mine. As long as you're a good person. Yeah, it's okay

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It's really it's really sad because if you think about it when they bear their testimony they're already in pure contradiction to the your truth is your truth and my truth is my truth because they claim that Joseph Smith is a

09:32

True prophet and that the Book of Mormon is true, right? Yeah, and that the church is true, right? So because by Joseph Smith becoming the true prophet he had to say all other churches creeds right or incorrect

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That's why God came to him Yeah Or sent, you know sent the vision to him the first vision and that's what breaks my heart right now

09:51

About the current state of these people is that there's the spirit behind Mormonism that has caused this

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Cognitive dissonance in these people because we got to remember they're slaves, right? They're slaves not only to their sin

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But now to an organization that has distorted the true gospel message and has told them something that has literally caused them to not think

10:09

Logically, right like so when you're baptized at eight years old literally you're asking a fundamentally a different Jesus a different spirit and a different gospel into your life

10:22

Here's something else that is I don't know if you guys are aware of this But something the church has taught for a very very long time

10:29

Is that they don't want you to think for yourself there is actually Documented talks and manuals that were written that straight -up said like The the church authorities are there to think for you.

10:45

Hmm, and you don't need to worry about that stuff Right just do what you're told.

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That's why there's the church essays There's an essay for every answer like every question you could have you can go on well not it's not

10:58

LDS org anymore It's come unto Christ or something like that. Yeah Yeah And you could go on there and you could type in any question in the search box and the church is gonna have an answer for it, which is why the

11:08

CES letter was so controversial that the church had to respond and Admit that Joseph Smith was you know, like married to you

11:17

Essentially because there wasn't an answer for that. So so real quickly Brandy for the listeners just in case they're not aware

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What what exactly is the CES letter? Yeah, it's the church education system The gentleman who wrote the

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CES letter approached someone who said, you know Any questions you have about doubting your faith that you can?

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Submit a letter to us with any questions you have and we will answer them and he wrote a letter and I think it was 74

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Questions ish. Yeah are 74 pages. So more probably less questions and None of he wrote them several times.

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Hey, I didn't receive anything back haven't received anything back And it was not only the question but also like this is the evidence

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I found for the question that I would like you to respond to And for me, that was my shelf breaker, which

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I'm sure we'll get into but yeah, it addressed things like plagiarism Basically garments in the footnotes of the

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CES letter this guy that wrote it was just fantastic. He he Is my scholarly dream for his presentation and one of the footnotes

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Presented another document that someone had written to the church Which had you know evidence that the garments were originally worn so that Joseph Smith would know who was part of like the original

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Sex cult of the LDS Church like that's why the garments were originally worn So they knew who was like basically one with the fold and who they knew they could communicate

12:43

Their secrets amongst like their secrets when that's documented verified in the CES letter.

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Yeah, so if you go the CES letter Yeah, it's a book now Oh, wow So what we did is we went through the

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CES letter and then we went through every single footnote which took us It took us forever.

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I think we got about three -quarters of the way before we were just broken and It and every single thing it goes back to a factual document either reference to the church website

13:12

Which now they've changed the website, right? So what's archived? What's not? But I'm sure that that there's people that have archived it for us

13:21

Wow Wow Okay, so AJ we've gotten to your stories when you're about eight years old growing up a little bit into the

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LDS organization now Now, what about you Brandi? Tell us about you growing up. How what about you?

13:33

Yeah, so I grew up in Louisiana, Georgia and Arkansas So I'm just Southern through and through third of my life in each of those before I joined the military and moved to California I grew up Second Baptist and Episcopal, which is crazy to think but I would go stay with my grandmother in the summer and she was

13:51

Episcopal and my family was Second Baptist, so we'd go to Second Baptist Church and And not only

13:58

I guess we would kind of went to a Presbyterian Church or like just a non -denominate Non -denominational as I was hitting my teenage years.

14:05

Mm -hmm. That was a cool thing to do as a teenager, right? Non -denominational In Atlanta there plenty

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And so we definitely went to the one that had the Ohana or like the sports the upward sports programs

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Because my parents put us into that so that was really a draw for us to go to that church So that's the church we went to we were definitely cultural

14:30

Christians and I'm grateful to say that my mom has become more

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Like concrete in her faith. Yeah, definitely. I'm closer to God as she's gotten older and I am so grateful for that.

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Amen however back then Church was something that I was grounded from it was a privilege

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It was not a right like it was not something that our family was

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Concreted upon it was something like well, you can go to church if your room is clean. Oh, wow.

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So It was definitely there would be times that I was grounded for six seven months

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And I wouldn't be in church. There would be nothing Wow, you think that would be the place where you should be at right now if you're having these troubles at home

15:16

Yeah, not honoring your father and mother you should probably be in church Definitely, you know, like when you have your kid you're like what's something

15:25

I can do differently with my child, right? And one thing is my I don't care if my child's sitting there grumpy.

15:30

He will be at church, you know, and I love this church I love apology yet because Not only do I get to sit there with my child grumpy every other kid gets to see him and know that he's in trouble

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You know He doesn't get to go away to Sunday school and pretend that everything's fine church grumpy

15:45

Yeah, you don't get to go to Sunday school and pretend that everything's great that's very very true so yeah

15:52

Wow So so take us so you grew up in a not like nominal Christianity.

15:58

Yeah centrally. So what led you into? Mormonism then so when I was

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I turned 18 and like I said, I didn't have a very good home life and Literally on my 18th birthday.

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I was still in high school I left my parents home But I don't buy whoever story you want to take

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I left their home and I moved in with Someone from high school and once I graduated

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I essentially was homeless like my time was done there I went to Memphis and I stayed in Memphis for a couple weeks from Atlanta and At that point my time was done there and the only person that I had known

16:37

Because I was not welcome into any of my family's house because that would cause family drama was my grandparents neighbors literally across the street driveways matched right up and I called them and I said hey

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I need a ride and Little Rock was like two hours from Memphis and they came and picked me up and I moved in with them and I lived across the street from my

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Grandparents for about a month and a half I would say longer than that and I found out that they were

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Mormon And that's not something I ever knew I did not know what Mormonism was I I knew there was a

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Mormon Church by our high school and now that I was Mormon I knew that's for seminary, right? I can't tell you who in my high school was

17:18

Mormon I don't even know there had to be some I and I even went back through my yearbook and I was like who was it?

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And in Georgia is much harder because there's probably all converts, you know, there's hardly probably any

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Actual Utah Mormons that moved there for fun, right? So I Didn't know and to me it was just another church

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So the rule for me to live with them was you take the lessons and you go to church and you can live with us And to me,

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I'm like, okay, I'll go to your church And I was taking the lessons, but back then this was 2005

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Every single lesson even after the first lesson the missionaries were like, are you ready to get baptized? And I felt this like real drive

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Within me after every lesson I would rebel. I had like this real rebellion in me

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Don't tell me what to do. Yeah, it was crazy. I not that I was like sneaking out or anything, but I felt like the

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Like I was not doing good things in my life like and I knew that the daughter was not doing good things in her life and What got me essentially and I was trying to do right by them

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So I didn't want to get baptized every time I'm like, I don't know this isn't the right thing for me I got almost done with my lessons and the daughter had

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Snuck a boy into her house and at this time I was trying to do better trying to do better and I Told I woke up the father and said there's a boy in the house or I didn't

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I would call the missionaries because I didn't Know what to do. I said there's a boy in the house. I don't know what to do And they came over and woke the father up and I was kicked out

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So because at that time, you know You're trying to do better and I and I thought I was doing the right thing because like the missionaries make it seem like You know, you're supposed to be a good person.

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This is who the church order is and Then again, yeah, I was homeless. And so my

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Nana Found out that I was doing lessons. I went over there I basically knocked on her door and said

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I have nowhere to go and This is what the stipulations are for me to live there Which she didn't know and I found out that they knew that they were

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LDS. They were vehemently Anti LDS. My papa was a

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Freemason 32nd degree until he passed away and then he achieved 33rd and They let me move in and from there my life was just in shambles

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I dealt with like demonic possession and the house and it was just really really bad time for me up until the time

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I Was about 21. I joined the Air Force right after I moved in with them.

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Wow Yeah, crazy a lot of stuff going. Yeah, that's how my that was my introduction to Mormonism. Okay, that was your intro

20:03

Yeah, so welcome to my life. Okay board like 18 years. Okay, so AJ bring us bring us up to up to speed then let's go from being young being eight up to the

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You know to where you you meet Brandy and think things of that nature if if we if you want to go to that to That spot or where you think would be best

20:21

AJ has a lot that he's not touched on Leave the church like what you witnessed.

20:31

Yeah. Well, I mean, okay, so And I've had numerous conversations with my dad about this too. He's no longer a member of the church anymore.

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Okay but And so we often talk about things that happen growing up and those kinds of things and and you know

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He told me a few times. He's like, you know as a parent in the Mormon Church, you kind of have this feeling that most other adults are

20:56

Are trustworthy and our people that you can leave your kids with and and so he's like, yeah, we kind of just trusted that they were

21:05

You know good Mormons and all that stuff Unfortunately, though, that's not always the case. Yeah So there were numerous instances that I remember growing up where just things were not right for example

21:19

When I was at Scout camp We had there was a guy that they had I Don't I don't even think he was actually like an official

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Scout leader They just had him come up as like a chaperone or an adult or whatever some floater or something Yeah, but this guy was a member of our ward.

21:34

Okay, and he Choked out a kid. Oh, wow. Yeah, like with his bare hands and we're all just standing there like, uh

21:43

Yeah, I was nuts. Here's the worst part though is the kid that he choked was not even a member of the church We had two boys.

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They were twins great guys We went to school with them, but they weren't they weren't church members That was just the closest

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Scout troop to where they lived. Yeah, we all knew them So not everyone is a Boy Scouts LDS, right?

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I actually remember one year at Scout camp One of the leaders staying like you

22:08

LDS Scout camps are all you know You Mormon Scout camps are the you know, your Scout Scout kids are the worst or whatever

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Like I don't know if that's just because we were badly behaved or what? But I do remember that being told that when

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I was when I was younger by some rando Scout leader That was kind of weird. That's weird Yeah, anyway, um, so that happened and my dad was actually the

22:31

Scout master at the time but he wasn't at Scout camp and so I Remember him talking about how he had to kind of deal with The fallout of that and how they pretty much had to like convince this these kids mom

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Hmm to not press charges. Oh, yeah, or yeah press charges or whatever and you know he said it was like a big deal and they were really adamant to like kind of sweep it under the rug and Kind of let it so it left marks like he choked him bad.

22:58

Oh, yeah. No, it was Wow, it was significant. Yeah, any choking is bad What I mean is like it, you know,

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I mean he was like, yeah. Oh my god. You saw that happen. Yep. Wow, man yeah, and then

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There was another I remember there was a Sunday school teacher when we were a little bit older who uh, he was just I Don't know how to explain.

23:19

He's kind of a jerk and and so we would you know being teenagers would kind of give him a

23:25

Hard time, you know, maybe say stuff or me just disobedience or whatever and I remember he used to go up to my buddy and like let me fix your tie and kind of do that whole like you know and too tight kind of thing and It was it happened more than once it was it was numerous times actually and Both me and my buddy were were both in karate at the time

23:47

And so finally, I think this happened for the last time for him and he kicked him in the groin like in the middle of church

23:52

Oh, yeah Wow, yeah Like we literally would so the way that we would do it the way that the order of kind of service would go would we'd have

24:00

Sacrament meeting so the big kind of group everybody meets together and then you'd have some days to Sunday school and then we'd have priesthood or young women's or whatever and Yeah, so anyway

24:10

It was I remember it happened as we were transitioning from class To priesthood this happened and he you know, yeah, so so when he did the whole tie thing

24:21

He wouldn't it wasn't like a joke. It was kind of like he would hurt people. Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. Mm -hmm

24:26

Wow, and that never really got addressed by I remember us telling people about it and no one really

24:31

Cared or really wanted to deal with it at all. In fact, it got to the point where that same guy we were older There was a girl that was a little bit younger than me who?

24:44

Was upset probably by something he'd said and she got up to leave his class and he physically grabbed her shoulders and like shoved her

24:51

Back down into her seat. Oh, wow. Yeah, so lots of weird physical altercations are going on while you're younger

24:57

You're seeing so what you're seeing as a young you like almost like a young adult this time. Yeah your teens

25:02

Yeah, I was like 14 15 16 out something. Yeah, so so we have a An organization that claims this spiritual holiness right like this reverency that needs to be happening at all times, but there's like an outward

25:16

Expression or let's like like a mannequin ism that they like to portray to people like in terms of word for it

25:22

Yeah, but then but on the inside you're seeing like physical abuse starting to happen in areas

25:28

I'm not gonna say that this happens at every single war or anything like that. This is your personal experience That you've noticed but one thing we have to understand especially as listeners here is that regardless of what people say about Themselves is we know the true spiritual state of man is that they're slaves to sin and if you don't if you're not released

25:44

By the Spirit of God, we shouldn't be surprised by these things regardless of what people say

25:50

Right. So so walk walk me through that as being a teenager and growing up trying to have this reverency in terms of the

25:57

Religion that you're in but then seeing something that's totally opposite like the fruits in a sense are opposite of what's actually being portrayed

26:07

So, I think an important thing too is there is a lot of separation

26:13

Between like real life and church life I kind of saw them as different hmm and while Being Mormon did kind of encompass a lot of things of my life

26:27

Growing up. It was always like a like while we're at church, you know, we do kind of one thing and and You kind of put on your best, you know what

26:35

I mean? And then when you get home Things are kind of different right? So dualism you had a mask. Oh for sure.

26:41

Yeah, and and so So when you would see those things go on it was I never really attributed it at the time to like oh this guy's, you know supposed to be a

26:53

High priest or a or a Melchizedek priesthood holder and he's supposed to be doing this. I never really looked at it that way

26:58

It was always kind of like this guy's a jerk. This guy shouldn't be acting this way I think the bigger problem too was the fact that like when we would bring stuff up and We kind of my age group kind of had a reputation of being like troublemakers

27:12

So much so in fact that one of the members of the bishoprics young son at a at a camp trip

27:20

Started a forest fire and we got blamed for it. Oh, wow

27:25

Yeah, and this guy was like adamant that it was us, you know Yeah, and once of course once it came out who was there was no apology given it was just well you guys you know, whatever this guy actually the same person ended up becoming the bishop and It was like a flip a switch got flipped and he all of a sudden like the youth were like his main ministry

27:47

Like he had this special little what he used to call it Like the bishops Bible Club or something where he'd invite like the youth over to his house and they would do like a

27:56

Bible study Thing hmm. It was very strange very strange So which guy which guy became the bishop the guy who started the forest fire the guy whose son started the forest fire

28:05

Okay, he was very adamant that it was my right me and a couple people gotcha granted We had gotten in trouble a few times at camp trips before For doing stupid things, but we didn't do anything wrong that time

28:20

Yeah Was this the same guy that like used you for like child labor?

28:26

So No, but that was also kind of a pervasive thing, right? So one of the big things when you're a member of the church is doing service projects, right?

28:37

So when you're a scout when you're a Boy Scout you do service projects and like the church loves that stuff because people are like Oh, I got

28:43

Eagle Scout project great. We can all do, you know community service or whatever, right? and you're kind of expected to do those things right and of course we've

28:51

I think you guys have touched on this to like the the doing things because you're expected to is not the same thing as like Doing it because you have that in your heart because Jesus gives you that that drive to be

29:01

You know help others, right? But I remember specifically when I was like 16 or so There was a few different Guys, and actually yeah,

29:14

I think we did go to that guy's house the so he was so this is before he was a bishop He was like in the he was in the bishopric

29:22

So like they have like they usually have one bishop and two counselors He was like one of the counselors and I remember we went to his house and laid a rock one time because he was getting

29:31

Ready to sell his house and he wanted to put rock in the backyard so that you know It'd be nice for the for him to sell it

29:37

Does that seem to me to you like something That is needed like for community outreach.

29:44

Mm -hmm, right, but they'd be like hey bring the youth over They're gonna do some you know some service of service.

29:50

Yeah. Yeah my rock. Yeah, right So there was there was weird stuff like that another guy

29:56

Who was like our teacher or whatever and he was he was He was very oh

30:04

Man trying to think of a good word for it. Anyway, he was not nice to us He was very obvious that he had issues with us

30:10

He kind of he kind of came in hard like this is how it's gonna be and bro I know you guys and you know what

30:15

I mean? Same thing like we had a reputation and and you know, no one really gave us a chance to actually like be good people, right?

30:23

You know, so what so what should have happened real quick is We should have been discipled properly and said hey, this is how we should be growing

30:32

You know in Christ. This is how Sanctification works, you know,

30:37

I mean and Instead it was more like you guys are terrible We're gonna make things difficult for you so that you turn your life around, you know,

30:44

I mean, right? Yeah, and and so he once again had tried to get all of my age group.

30:50

I think we were priests at the time That's the title not actual priests, right

30:57

I Thought I was very holy at the time. Yeah, I could bless the sacrament and stuff

31:05

So but he was trying to get people to I think we were they wanted us to help us do a

31:13

I think he was doing like a stain and a seal on his like driveway. Okay, you know what

31:18

I mean? I'm just kind of like I want to do this. Yeah people to help Come do it for me.

31:23

Yeah, send over the bad boys Yeah, and and I remember hearing my dad yelling at this guy on the phone about he's abusing the youth

31:31

Wow, it's like you're just getting them to do things. Yeah, I mean realistically. I like oh, hey, I need somebody paint my house

31:36

Let's get the youth over to do it. Like it's just where does it end? You know I'm saying like where does it where is that?

31:42

Like, you know, are we helping the less fortunate? No, we're just helping a guy doesn't want to pay for it. Yeah, you know, it's interesting you say that because I've had multiple conversations with many

31:51

LDS missionaries right now and one of the tactics that they're using is

31:57

Doing like yard work for people or not new. Yeah, okay And they actually come to the women's house like when my husband this is before I was

32:05

LDS in California they would come and ask us if if I needed my laundry folded

32:11

It's like they knew he was deployed or Satan told them regardless. I don't know Right told them that he was deployed and they would come knock on my door and say do you need laundry folded?

32:22

You know like in exchange for dinner or lesson. Yeah, you know and at that time I was like, no like my area at my door

32:28

No, you know. Hmm. That's very interesting. Okay, so this is something that's been going on for a long Oh, yeah I remember when

32:34

I was I want to say 16 one of the things that really started getting me to start like doubting the church

32:42

Was they had this whole lesson planned out well first, okay Let me back up a little bit when passion of the

32:48

Christ came out. Mm -hmm, and We were specifically told do not see that movie.

32:54

It's terrible It glorifies the death of Jesus like this is not something that that good

32:59

Mormon people should be viewing right? This is horrible, right? And so that was kind of the the notion

33:04

I had in fact when I met Brandy She's like you've never seen passion the Christ the best movie ever Well, you know and and not the best movie ever, but like yeah, she was excited.

33:12

She wanted you to see Yeah, oh, yeah For the first time

33:20

So like Oh public programming as I'm a movie buff now because I didn't watch movies growing up really we watched we watched like animated

33:28

Mormon stories, okay I would be Modern life.

33:33

Yeah, he's like, what's that and like never Wow. Wow. I know he's like I watch

33:39

Sesame Street 16 oh for sure. Yeah, like pretty bad. Yeah It was like my mom was such a stickler to any any anything that was out of the service pg -13

33:51

And I was not 13 could not watch it. Ah, you know what I mean? That's the standard. Yep Yeah, but think about now like if that's the

33:57

LDS rule now pg -13 like there's things on Netflix that are pg -13 I would know it's terrible.

34:02

Yeah, never some bad stuff And so if that's like like sheologians this week just touched on it like to think that your lives as parents and children run parallel And you are just like oh, that's their life like they're they're living it and I'm living mine

34:15

But like I'll touch in like that's the LDS family life. Yep, like on Mondays we meet on Sundays But Tuesdays through Saturday our lives run parallel and like their children they know what to do.

34:27

They know the rules So if you have an LDS child that's watching something that's pg -13 and they're 14 even 15 and there's things

34:34

I'm 34 and I would never watch that is We encountered we encountered something that was really like You made a good point.

34:44

In fact, it just reminded me of it's even younger than that Like we read something on watch that was like it was

34:50

PG but they were they were talking. I think he told us He said hey, this show's got like two girls kissing.

34:56

Hmm, and it was a TVP like yeah TVG on Netflix Yep. Oh, wow, and and I said what and I went and made a post on in the women's group

35:05

I'm like, I can't believe this like but it's not like to think if we were LDS That's the things my child would be exposed to because that's just the rule.

35:13

Hmm. That's the standard like I would never check in Now granted I did grow up watching you ever heard of feature films for families ever heard of that It sound it sounds

35:24

Buttercream gang movie. Yep. Okay buttercream gang was my that was my jam Gang Like my

35:36

What's that movie? It's very popular with Ponyboy. Oh That was like my

35:42

I don't know if the buttercream game was an LDS movie or not But I would consider the buttercream gang to be like my Christian outsiders

35:48

Yeah, no, we we were all like we watched those movies like we had all of them on VHS, you know

35:53

I mean we watched stuff like Star Wars, you know, but like Like you want what was that scary movie you watched as a teenager with your dad and your sister

36:04

Oh, man, that was when I was older It doesn't like I was my dad like to think the things that he was allowed to do and I was like 16 or so.

36:16

My dad stopped going to church and he was like I'm done. I can't do this anymore. And so But by my mom was still very much like you guys are going to church and So we would still go and do whatever we needed to do church wise, you know

36:31

I mean, I went through four years of seminary and in high school like all that stuff and So but My dad would be like hey, we're gonna go see a movie.

36:44

Don't tell your mom And we would go watch like underworld that was like the first fight club was the first radar movie ever watched love that movie

36:51

Yeah, great movie. Um, but not something you probably want to show your kids, right, right

36:57

But yeah and he's like don't tell your mom watching this or like we went into the movie theater and saw underworld, you know and and then

37:03

He's like we can't it was like me and my older sister and my dad He's like we cannot tell your mom and we did we did not tell her

37:10

She's not find out for like a year and then it finally I think we sister probably told your mom Casually mentioned it

37:18

We casually mentioned it my mom was so mad. Yeah, just cuz we'd forgotten But yeah

37:23

So like there was like things where my my dad kind of started getting more lax on just cuz he was like what's up?

37:29

You know to me he probably didn't think it was important or as important especially since we're getting older But yeah, I under talk about my dad sat us down and we were gonna watch movie it.

37:37

Oh, I'm sorry Not it the shining. Oh, okay So we sat down and watch the shining and it was like my dad's like I'm tired

37:43

I'm going to bed and so my sister and I are sitting there in the dark Oh man night. My dad just went to bed and we're like, let's turn this off.

37:50

We're gonna go. Yeah That's funny. Anyway, that's a little well I mean like to be fair to like I grew up in like a

37:56

Christian household But I mean, I watched RoboCop at the age of five I'm you know in the first 30 minutes, there's like a hundred like not hundred twenty five people getting shot up in like a

38:06

High -rise building, you know, isn't there a guy that just like explodes? Yeah. Yeah, there's there's a lot of crazy stuff

38:13

For example, like I like I watched, you know, the Exorcist probably at like 11. I've never yeah. Well, I've seen the shining

38:19

I've seen it. I watched it when I was very young very terrified of But at a neighbor's house see when

38:25

I was going to school I knew kids who they would come to school with like Friday the 13th shirts and stuff like that I never was well, well these what's funny though is these things?

38:34

Absolutely terrified me and I probably shouldn't have watched him when I was a kid But I mean in terms of like the way parent people parent

38:39

I'm sure that it's very similar across the board on how involved people want to be in their children's lives Regardless if they're they're

38:46

LDS or Christian Yeah, we have standards though that are very important in the Bible of how we should actually shepherd our children

38:53

Whereas I can see it being a very tempting thing to do if I were to be

38:58

LDS to think well You know these children that are in my life. They're not necessarily my children

39:03

They're the spiritual offspring of Elohim and one of his goddess wives They're actually my brothers and sisters that I'm actually keeping here in this mortal probation

39:12

And they now have the free will to do some X and X men join sealed together for time and eternity, right?

39:18

Their own responsibility for their own salvation, so it's their choice whether they're 8 5 17 35 for the choices they're going to make they know the way yeah

39:29

I was gonna say I can see that I can see the temptation being there But I'd also see that there's probably many many LDS parents who are probably like nope you're not watching this you're not doing that You know to try to make it easier for their time in mortal probation

39:40

I guess that was definitely more my experience growing up was a lot of like now. It's don't do this don't do that.

39:46

Yeah Yeah, so so I think my first purview into kind of starting to doubt the church was

39:52

I was in elders quorum And they had brought up how the church was coming out with like a new initiative or something basically that they were like yeah

40:01

You know we really want you guys to be friends with your neighbors You know like people you know like you see your neighbor like cutting his lawn go ask him if you want some help or whatever

40:10

Whatever you know and he's like the whole like and I remember them explaining that the whole point of this whole thing was to Like basically be kind to them, and then they would ask us about the church, and then we could friendship evangelism so flirt to convert

40:25

That was the term so in you know what what 25 to 10 years ago

40:30

That was the term that they talked about in Relief Society was flirt to convert that was like the joke the meme then

40:36

And so when he's telling me about it, and I'm like oh, yeah flirt to convert. He's like don't call it that I'm like well. That's what they called it when

40:42

I was in church being told to flirt with my neighbors You were just to be friendly, and you know like to be yeah to be jovial That's right.

40:51

Yeah, that's the thing to them the light. That's within you. Yeah, well I mean there's like friendship evangelism we even within Christianity But in in terms of doing that type of friendship.

41:01

It's almost it's almost um fake It's dishonest you know between Cross -cultural evangelism or cross -cultural communication to bring people in and actually learn about them

41:13

That's completely different You know the way that we're called by Christ to do right to actually like get into their lives and from the inside out

41:21

Versus it being completely surface like okay great. You remember now by which is what happened to me

41:26

Yeah, genuinely loving and caring about somebody as a person and where they are in salvation and and trying to share the truth of Them because you want them to be saved and and you want them to know

41:37

Christ. I think it's a completely different You're coming at it from a completely different place right yeah, and and I remember being told that and Just thinking to myself like aren't we supposed to be just being kind to others because Christ would want us to be like it was

41:53

The first time I never really had like a huge disconnect where like I felt like they were telling me something That was completely the opposite of what the what we were taught about Jesus interesting yeah, and and Sorry you were okay, no no no

42:10

I wasn't I know I felt like I interrupted She know what the flirting could to convert, but I can understand

42:17

There's a very big similarity to that more is like the the woman thing or the man thing yeah You know what

42:22

I mean, and it's like really. I mean gosh. I hate to say this but I Was you know when

42:29

I became a Christian? After Mormonism, and I was talking to one of my pastor's wives at this point

42:34

And I said I'm just really afraid because the Mormon Church is releasing their own New Testament And this was the weight that we had to stand upon was the truth of the

42:42

New Testament and now they're releasing their New Testament And you know she said the only thing we have to stand on is what

42:49

Christians are supposed to be doing correctly not the Mormon Church, and and I said wow you're you know if she talked about like how

42:57

We're supposed to be evangelizing the way Christ told us to you not to be shallow We're supposed to be actually living

43:03

Christ's Word not to be this vapid person that lives by this fake set of rules essentially like it's made up like these

43:10

Pharisees and That really got to me And she said it doesn't matter what New Testament they have

43:16

When you're living the truth, and you can actually demonstrate it to them by your life And then showing them in the

43:22

New Testament regardless of what their says Then you have the the truth that Christ shares like you have that evangelism that they don't have

43:31

And that really like I went to her crying. Did you hear did you hear the LDS Church is releasing a

43:37

New Testament? And that's you know that was the hope that she shared with me, and she said you know for so long

43:43

The Mormon Church has been doing it correctly Christians should be the ones knocking on doors

43:48

Christians should be the one holding the pregnant woman's laundry Christians should be the one taking dinner

43:53

Christians should be the one sweet like raking the leaves and The Mormon Church has only been deceiving people because they got that part right right it's everything else that they're not getting right

44:04

That's right. I think I think one thing I feel like I'm jumping around so I was listening to The latest episode with Micah Wilder Yeah and a lot of a lot of his experience really like touched me because it was it felt a lot like my experience and not the

44:22

Mission part obviously because I left the church before I was old enough to go on a mission or I was right about that age but for me like I had friends that were

44:34

Christian I Remember specifically going to a couple different Christian concerts Like I went to a

44:41

Supertones concert when I was in high school with some some kids from band when I was in band and No one shared the gospel with me like at all yeah, and and so it's really weird

44:53

Thinking about this now, and it's like you know what I've listened. I don't know but The fact that that no

44:59

Christians in my like vicinity growing up even attempted I mean, that's huge right and it goes back to what

45:07

Brandi was saying like that's stuff We should be doing on a daily basis. You know I mean yeah and So I don't know

45:15

I try to we're really trying to be more. You know outspoken about our faith and more

45:21

Evangelistic and loving of course we don't want to be right Brow beating people, but you're only a noisy gong right exactly exactly

45:29

Yeah, so and then I think the the other thing so I left the church like right when I turned 18 like right when

45:35

I Turned 18 and and the last thing for me really Was I remember watching so I was huge in the church history as a kid like really in the church history

45:44

I had all these audio tapes that were like dramatizations of Like LDS church history mm -hmm.

45:50

Okay. Yeah reenact. Oh, yeah, sorry not real church Has their own like movie studio, which is now vid angel

45:57

I didn't know like so the same company that makes the chosen. Oh, okay. Yeah, and I really feel like Christians should know that I don't know if you wanna yeah out of here, but They are now the company that produces like the temple videos

46:10

And the videos that he's taught the reenactments inside right right. Yeah, yeah, so I remember growing up listening to these audio reenactments of Like Joseph Smith's first vision and pretty much all the way up to his his death

46:25

At Carthage Jail and stuff and I remember I listened to him over and over like all the time because they were so fascinating to me yeah, and And so I was like oh man

46:35

How great is it that the you know the LDS church is like got all these stuff? Archived and documented and like this is so amazing and then

46:42

I watched a documentary on The Meadow Mountain Massacre mm -hmm on the history channel

46:50

I'd never heard about it before Okay, and I was like why would the church not tell me about this? This is insane like if if a bunch of Mormon settlers murdered a bunch of people

47:00

I would like to know about it You know yeah, and so then things started kind of you know the sweater started unraveling for me a little bit

47:07

And it was like all right. I'm done, but Unfortunately for me like first off.

47:14

I didn't have anything to really go to it was just like I'm done with everything yep, and It was like I just I just was like okay.

47:26

Well. I'm not gonna be organized religion anymore. This is kind of garbage I'm not listening to this. I'm not gonna deal with this anymore. Yeah. I'm just gonna be a good person, right?

47:33

That's kind of the whole like I'm just gonna be a good person. I'm sure you gotta gotta forgive me. You know yeah Obviously that's not how it works right and the other problem, too

47:41

Is that I didn't have like a theological basis for why I left all of my issues were with the people that I grew up with Obviously that was kind of a problem for me and then also

47:53

Maybe not the people, but just the encounters. I had with people that are part of the church, and then also the

48:00

Sorry I lost my train of thought there was the People and then the history stuff so right

48:08

Those two things together for me was enough to be like this is all a lie You know like your dad left you like when your dad left the church.

48:15

He didn't take you with him No, not really my mom still kind of you know made us go to church and it was all kind of very much like will you guys do your own thing and and that kind of attitude

48:24

I unfortunately Kept so when Brandy started taking the the church lessons with the missionaries after we got married

48:34

I kind of was like well It's your choice you decide and all you know whatever makes you happy and and Obviously that's not what

48:40

I should have been doing as a spiritual leader in our home right and that's something I I regret

48:46

But I'm glad that we went through it because you know Now we're kind of out the other side

48:53

Having you know the Spirit of God with us and and having faith in Christ and being saved and all that But so I kind of just lived in the world and did my own thing did whatever

49:03

Partied in college and all the you know stupid stuff you do not really caring about God or anything

49:09

I do remember one Really significant encounter when I was in college, so I went to NAU for about a year before I joined the military okay, and I'd been out of the church for a couple years at this point and Well when

49:26

I say out of the church, I just wasn't going I hadn't left You didn't revoke your membership or I taken off the record.

49:31

Yeah that happened later I Just wasn't going so But I was up at NAU I'm at my job, and I hear this girl talking about how

49:41

Mormonism is a cult and Immediately it was like It was like I was a church member again.

49:48

It was weird I was like they're not a cult you know they believe in Jesus, but like I was like oh wow you went on the defensive

49:54

Oh, yeah, and that's happened to me I have literally been sitting at a football game besides someone who was holding a beer in their hand

50:02

Talking to me about how their family was LDS and I said oh I used to be LDS like it was so feel so good to be free of the cult life and Turns to me and to start they're not a cult we believe in Jesus like I'm still a member of the church like Girl look like let's reflect on where we're at right now in life right you know

50:23

What are you defending? Yeah? It's just like those It's almost being you know growing up in it for people like going through it for so long

50:31

It just it's just like it's like they're almost trained Yeah, they are taneously they hear that one thing and their brain reverts almost like a muscle memory

50:38

Defending their testimony our son up until I guess just this week The way he starts his prayers

50:45

Heavenly Father Like the way like because then when you're in the Mormon Church you say Heavenly Father And you like it's very repetitive.

50:53

It's very repetitive the same, and we just kind of broke it down for him like hey, man You've been saying the same prayer since you were like four

51:00

At night, so you're old enough now. We need to start talking about the things He would pray in the

51:06

Mormon prayer like the way they teach kids to pray, but still add like oh, I'm thankful for this Please pray for this

51:13

Please pray for missionaries bubble you know, but he was sincerely meaning it from like a Christian way But I said like let's demonstrate like and we would show him in the

51:20

Bible before like you know this is how Jesus prayed Yeah, but just this week. It really got to us

51:26

It really just like you know he it really clicked with him where he said oh wow and then even last night when he was

51:33

Trying to pray. He was like Heavenly Father And he said our Father in Heaven Let's do it how

51:44

Jesus taught us to do That works, man. Yeah our Father who is in heaven. Yeah, that's how he started our

51:49

Father who is in heaven Yeah, you know in it, but that's it's so indoctrinated because I mean he was too

51:55

Yeah, he had just turned old enough to go to nursery They don't let them go to nursery till they're a year and a half, okay

52:01

So we had just joined I remember making a joke like oh look I joined at the right time I didn't have to have my baby in church, but now

52:06

I mean obviously we had another baby. We're back at apology No, I'm just kidding We get him through 18 in church

52:13

Right that's right family. Yeah, it's amazing. It's the right way. Yeah Wow okay, so yeah

52:18

Yeah, keep keep going from from there. I want to hear how okay You're going to join the military and what's what's tripping me out a little bit is you join the military

52:26

Yeah, so at this point what two years before me. Okay? Yeah, I joined at 19, but I Crazy, so I left my

52:33

Nana's house because I was still partying at this point. I was into drugs and You know it my

52:40

Nana super Episcopalian went to theological seminary for the Episcopal Church the two -year program that they have my

52:47

Papa a devout Freemason But There was so much darkness in my life

52:53

And and like physical like actual like physical darkness tangible darkness.

52:59

You can cut it with a knife Yeah, yeah, yeah And I remember my Nana saying that you know like if you ever get you ever feel it like this is something my family

53:07

Is aware of and has been aware of like since my mom was a teenager her friend died

53:12

They were in a horrible like an horrible accident And I mean this is something like we could have conversations about with my mom, and she would say like yes

53:21

This person I don't know remember the name, but as present at your Nana's house.

53:27

You know and like that's scary So just you know Read Psalms 21 22

53:34

Constantly so I would have it open at night and just like read it consistently well. I left

53:39

Nana's house Because I couldn't stop partying and was doing like drugs and stuff

53:45

I shouldn't be doing at that time it and what's interesting is I actually I just remember I got baptized at 10

53:51

Okay, and the back in the Baptist Church and the Baptist Church Yeah So what's so crazy is like and I think of all the people

53:58

I grew up with who did the same We it was at a point of an awana where you became like this point

54:03

I was gonna ask if it was BBS this little like stage and awana is where everyone goes and gets baptized

54:08

Yeah, so you just do it. It's a ritualistic mm -hmm everyone else is doing it your friends are doing it

54:13

Yeah, well, it was like part of you got signed off in your book. Oh like move on Yeah, I didn't know that so it was like to move on at that and I'm sure wanna has changed now

54:25

It's probably not as evangelistic as it used to be it's more babysitting now But it it's so crazy to think that like I was baptized and there's no fruit in my life like ever

54:38

But I still thought that I was saved at times when I would try to reach out for Christ and stuff would still pray

54:46

Regularly and try to read the Bible, but like now I know the truth, you know darkness cannot reside where light is

54:55

Jesus is my protector like my faith is my truth and like that Jesus is the truth.

55:01

He's the only truth. Amen The truth is a person whose name is Jesus. Yes Yeah, amen Jerry said

55:10

I took that from Jerry Should put that on a shirt with his face on it.

55:20

Yeah They'll think his name's Jesus He has a name is

55:28

Jesus and it looks like I ended up I moved out and I had met a guy on like I don't know

55:40

Whatever tinder probably like hot or not or whatever. It was You secretly an

55:52

MTV celebrity from the early 2000s, yes And I moved in with him and then

55:58

I went to basic training I didn't have a driver's license or anything so I kind of relied on like the very like Arkansas life like you just rely on whatever guy will take you to work that day and So cliche,

56:11

I'm sorry from people from Arkansas. That's not Arkansas life. I'm from West Little Rock not anyway

56:21

I don't want to offend anyone from Arkansas So I joined the Air Force and I actually got married to him when

56:29

I was in basic training Not he was already in the Air Force, right and I was already going to join the Air Force so by chance

56:35

I had gotten orders to Japan, but because I Had gotten married to this gentleman.

56:40

I ended up stationed back in Arkansas Hmm, and it was a very abusive relationship Which I mean is expected when there's two unbelievers together that you know trying to pervert

56:50

God's image of marriage, right? And trying to live in this like weird

56:55

Like we're got a good marriage. You can't have a good marriage if God's not in it And so I remember one night.

57:02

I was just laying in bed and We're about to move to California and I just look up and there's literally the ceiling is like moving in black

57:11

Hmm, and I'm like, okay God when you're ready, like I'm done

57:17

Like well There's like this moment where you don't have the security and your faith to be like I'm done like Lord rebuke

57:23

Satan And so you're you know, like in you put your foot back under the blanket and you're like, okay

57:29

God Like so you're laying in bed You wake up in the middle of night and you look up and it's like your ceiling is moving

57:37

Yeah, and I had felt this okay presence like many times. Yeah in the past like something your

57:42

Nana's yeah, so when I was actually a young child at my Nana's house, I had woken up in the middle of night and The like the whole house was moving like and I couldn't walk like so there were like little things that Gosh, I mean it sounds so like Christians get it like that's the thing like people who believe in Demons and angels like they get it

58:03

But like it just sounds so insane to like say out loud, but I've never really like said out loud except to my husband right, um, like people like Coming out of the wall like screaming at me like and like keeping me from getting to my parents room

58:17

Wow, like physically keeping me from getting to my parents. No when you're yeah when you were yeah, I was probably like four and like the whole the whole floor is like moving like Waving and such and I couldn't get to my parents room and then all of a sudden it just stopped

58:30

Hmm, and I ran in my parents room and and then they put me back to bed Man, I came here for a reason.

58:38

Yeah It's my life to get to you And I and I'll never forget that there's a lot that I can't remember my childhood

58:47

But that I'll never forget and then so anyway back to being That night

58:52

I'm laying in bed and and I wake up and it's literally I can't breathe Like it felt like whatever this was was standing on me and I'm looking over to my ex -husband

59:01

And he's just laying in bed sleeping peacefully Wow, and my Bible again was always open always open

59:08

So I'm trying to grab it and I couldn't grab it and I'm just like trying to breathe and I couldn't breathe

59:14

And but at this time you have to understand I thought it was saved. So like what at this time? Totally believe the demon possession could happen to Christians or demons.

59:22

Okay taunt Christians I was of that belief and I was able to like finally just be like Lord, please

59:30

Lord Please help me and get up and walk outside I'm in my pajamas and as I'm walking outside of the apartment like all look like all the lights were off and I made it

59:39

Downstairs because we were in a two -story apartment come to find out later after right after this happened

59:45

My mom lived in the same apartment building What she was a teenager like when she when she was like a young adult

59:52

So like she moved out of Nana's house and lived in the same apartment building.

59:57

That's weird Oh like crazy crazy thing. That's really have experiences when she lived there.

01:00:02

I don't know. I've never talked to my mom I only talked to Nana about these things so so I go outside and like all the lights look dark and I'm like Running out to the grass and I'm just like I can finally breathe and I'm like Lord Please make it stop and like all the lights just like get bright again

01:00:17

Weird. Yeah Wow. And so at that point I was grateful. We got orders to California We moved to California and I was of the belief you can move and it won't follow you

01:00:27

What I was taught as a kid So we moved and guess what followed me that yeah the entity.

01:00:35

Yeah, so I deployed I'll say I moved and That was horrible,

01:00:42

California was horrible it continued to be horrible and I deployed to Iraq I almost lost my life a couple times

01:00:49

Once in an explosion and then when I our plane was landing in Baltimore a plane crashed at the

01:00:55

Baltimore It's actually it's actually still there. Like the plane was so damaged. They use it as like firefighter training.

01:01:00

So that was in 2009 Wow, and the plane is still there. Where were you in the plane when it crashed?

01:01:05

Actually, it was a DC -10 So I was actually in the middle like right in front of the the movie screen and I thank

01:01:11

God for that every day I never sit in the middle Aisle I wasn't so the middle aisle was five seats and then the three seats on the outside and I was in the middle seat right with my feet up on the

01:01:24

The movie screen Wow did many people in that plane crash die? No, I don't know if anyone ended up dying

01:01:29

But I know that everyone like in the back like the luggage ballast like fell on them And then the ones on the sides that were like on the inner like the aisle rose that the luggage opened and the ballast fell on them and all the lug inside of it fell on them and Then the fire like we had to stay on the plane because the firefighters had to take a lot of people out

01:01:50

So after that, can I can I really interrupt for a second? So yeah, so the first half of my career

01:01:56

I was aircraft maintenance Mm -hmm. And so typically when you have something like a hard landing They'll do like a repack of the struts and like they'll fix things, right?

01:02:06

This plane was damaged. They hit the runway so hard that they couldn't repair it Oh the runway the plane was about to go into like the river

01:02:13

So they had to take back off again shut down the engines and glide back to another runway because or another like taxiway because there was so much damn like Like debris on the previous taxiway.

01:02:24

Yeah, so this wasn't just a hard landing. This was like Seriously, yeah, it's a smash landing. Yeah, it's like the wings were like touching the ground when we finally landed

01:02:33

Like I remember we are going back around and being like I could see the print on that guy's shirt and he's like fishing like looking up at Like the plane like Wow.

01:02:42

He's like, this is not good. Yeah, so but the whole time I was deployed They had chapel and I lived right

01:02:48

I lived I stayed by the chapel but the chaplains and I I This is not to say anything about individual chaplains in the military on the chaplain core in the military is not equipped for salvation

01:03:00

They are your friends. They are your counselors you go to color you go to get ramen noodles you go to get

01:03:06

Girl Scout cookies so when I was deployed and I'm really needing assistance

01:03:13

You go to chaplain core to color or to open letters from Boy Scouts Hmm They have like their little military

01:03:22

New Testaments and at that time I was flying from Baghdad to Balad We were getting shot at on our planes and and I was also working in the hospital

01:03:32

So going Baghdad Balad Hospital Baghdad Balad Hospital seeing a lot of death I'm trying to find respite in the the chapel

01:03:40

There was no message and I'm sure there was church But it was not at a time that like you probably had to work a nine -to -five

01:03:48

But I worked like two days and nights two days a days two days night No, that's totally true because when I was it when

01:03:53

I was in Iraq and what 20 18 is when I went there Same deal like she's like, oh, you just try and go to church.

01:03:59

I'm like, I can't I work like every day. So yeah and so At that time.

01:04:05

I really was like, all right God like I've almost died Like so many times like the plane would land at the end of the runway

01:04:14

To make sure that no one was shot Like that kind of thing because they would stop at the end of the runway because they're not gonna taxi in if the planes on Fire, right?

01:04:22

Yeah, or someone's dead. They're just gonna kind of like the ambulance will meet you out there And I had kind of just like given up hope at that point

01:04:32

So we come back and I Divorced my ex -husband which again is I want to make sure clear that that is against God's law like but when there's not

01:04:40

God in The marriage like there's no hope for the marriage. So we didn't have hope I actually had been going to a military chaplain before this while my

01:04:49

There was a very abusive relationship and I've been going to chaplain on base before my deployment and he had said like well

01:04:54

This is what the Bible says about divorce Your husband has to say that he wants to divorce you before you can divorce him

01:04:59

So I was staying in a very abusive relationship still trying to seek what God's Word said about my marriage

01:05:06

Well, I wasn't saved and he wasn't saved and the person you're going to for counsel is not not actually.

01:05:11

Yeah knowledgeable about God's Word and So I actually stayed in that marriage until he said he wanted to divorce me

01:05:20

And so I was wait a couple years too long and I landed

01:05:25

I crash -landed in Baltimore You know found all my money was stolen by my ex -husband when

01:05:30

I got to Baltimore So it was like a whole like disaster and I had just like given up Like all like God's not for me

01:05:37

God, I'm not on God's team or he's not on my team, you know, right? Yeah, and so I are you

01:05:42

God look at my life. Yeah, so I finally make it back to California and I Had severe

01:05:48

PTSD. I had dreams about my crash Realistic dreams about my explosion the hospital and it was a very very tough time.

01:05:57

I started drinking really bad Grateful that I Do not have an addictive personality and I did not let myself

01:06:07

Get into that. I actually had a cat at the time that Like woke me up out of like a real bad flashback dream.

01:06:14

Mm -hmm, and I AJ hates that cat to this day Because I had to not like AJ Cat would punk me out every minute opportunity.

01:06:25

Wow. Yeah, so I Found a church that was a

01:06:31

Lutheran Church and got involved there Still thought

01:06:36

I was saved They don't verify your salvation became a youth leader Crazy that they would even let me be a youth leader

01:06:44

I was living with my boyfriend at the time in a premarital sexual relationship, which is just insane.

01:06:50

Yeah So I'm still searching God still trying and I ended up going on a the winter retreat

01:06:58

I'm still in the Air Force at this time go on the winter retreat with the youth and One of the teenagers comes up to me and says

01:07:05

I forgot my birth control and I'm like Why do you need your birth control? Like you're on a youth retreat with church. Yeah, you don't need your birth

01:07:11

She's like well, I'm sleeping with I'm sleeping the same sleeping bag as my boyfriend I need my birth control and I'm like we're in Tahoe and our churches in Vacaville Like we're not driving all the way like we just shoveled snow to get in this house

01:07:22

You're not sleeping in this thing Yeah And I said hey this is going on and he's like, um, well that's for her and her parents to deal with So she wants to sleep in the same sleeping bag as her boyfriend

01:07:37

We have to call her mom and ask her mom to bring her medicine. Oh my goodness And I said, well this church is not for me and I stopped going after there's so funny because we actually got staff pictures

01:07:46

Like the weekend before the right the youth retreat and so then I was like church isn't for me still

01:07:52

I didn't know that this is the state of church these days And I actually had like considered at this point going to a

01:07:59

Mormon Church to go find a husband like a real husband Wow But then I found

01:08:04

AJ and that's where AJ comes into my life. We met on match .com Oh, okay because at that time

01:08:10

I was like had written off like My ex -husband was in the military too and I was like, I'm never gonna date anybody in the military

01:08:17

And then I funny as I said the same thing Who was in the military and we actually almost worked together and everyone at his work knew me but he didn't know me

01:08:27

Oh, well, I didn't know him. So when he started dating me everyone was like, oh you're dating her.

01:08:32

She's so cool And I'm like, I know Anyway, so that's where I my story she was pretty cool

01:08:39

I'll admit that so Wow record. All right, so my wife is pretty cool So bring us up to speed up to speed with your life going up to where you met

01:08:47

Brandy All right, so I was not searching for anything right at all at this point

01:08:54

I joined the military in 2008. So like about two years after after she had joined

01:09:00

I Tried to do college at that point my parents kind of were like if you're gonna live with us

01:09:06

She's got to be going to school. So I went to school And then it kind of got, you know, really difficult being at home being an adult having to live under your parents roof

01:09:17

And so I was like, oh, I know I'm gonna go to a university. So I went to NAU and that didn't end well

01:09:24

The curse of Arizona College maybe I don't know it was just trying to escape my parents turned into a really expensive

01:09:31

Right, you know situation in fact, it was I So I I got kicked out

01:09:38

I mean at you because they put me on like academic probation and they're like Hey, you need to leave and get your grades, you know, yeah better somewhere else

01:09:49

And I was kind of I was like man, what do I do with my life and I was working at Avis and budget rent -a -car.

01:09:57

Okay, and I worked with this old salty, you know retired

01:10:03

Senior master sergeant who was like, yeah military is the best thing you should join the Air Force. Well, you know and After a while,

01:10:09

I was like, you know, maybe I will it's because it's either this or I become a truck driver, you know, and and so Still not really thinking about God still not really even considering anything

01:10:19

It was more like it was one of them good person other people, you know That's kind of the the motto I live by which

01:10:24

I was not very good to other people So it's more like now what can I do to make a living? Yeah. Yeah In fact at one point it was like financially it was bad enough that I like me and this other girl that I worked with Moved into an apartment together.

01:10:38

She had a kid and a boyfriend who was like did not like that. I was living with her But like it was the trashiest apartment ever.

01:10:46

It was like one of those apartment complexes. That's like there's only four units Yeah, and it was like $500 a month to live there and we split it and we still had a hard time making rent

01:10:56

Wow, yeah, it was rough We used to live next to this guy that had like 15 cats we used to call him the cat lady

01:11:05

So anyway My finally was like I got him with the recruiters. They're like, hey, you know, whatever and so I finally asked my parents

01:11:11

Hey, can I move in with you guys? Well just while I wait to join the military and they're like, okay Yeah, so I moved back down to Phoenix join the military all that stuff and I'd already deployed like twice before we even met like when

01:11:26

I started deploying when I got qualified in my job To be able to deploy I I deployed for like almost a year straight like I went on one deployment

01:11:34

I was home for about a month Then I went on a TDI for like another month or two and then I went on another deployment like what's the last minute?

01:11:41

TDI is like a short -term temporary duty Whatever temporary duty like I'm just yeah

01:11:47

Yeah, we ended up going to Australia and Diego Garcia and doing some secret missions to Afghanistan moving cargo

01:11:54

No one knew what it was. Wow. Yeah, we're just like, yeah. Yeah, it was weird. Is that even your real name?

01:12:03

It was cool, I mean I did get to go to Afghanistan He's an international super spy. Whatever There is no denial did you see that?

01:12:17

Anyway, yeah, so so when we met

01:12:23

It was kind of I mean for me it was love at first sight I know it's kind of cliche to say but we met in this like dingy bar

01:12:33

Describes, California had bras and underwear on the wall. Okay, like you're in like you're in.

01:12:38

Yeah, it was bad Parts of it.

01:12:43

Yeah, great place to visit so We lived there for like six

01:12:52

Yeah for a long time Anyway, we met and She started pressuring me to go to church

01:12:59

And it wasn't it wasn't like it you need to go to church it was like we need to really get involved in In church because we're our son, you know, we got a son on the way

01:13:10

Like I don't want to raise him without faith in our home and at the time I was like, I don't wanna do this But but but I was like, okay fine

01:13:17

Like if you want to do that, it's gonna make you happy. I'll go with you, right? And for a while it was okay. We went to this non -denominational church in Yeah, and Come to find out it's part of like the

01:13:30

Bethel circuit. Oh, okay. So that's why it was great at the time It was real great. I went there because I like some music spoke tongues.

01:13:37

There was a lady Kind of weird when he was deploying. Yeah strange and I was like I did have one

01:13:43

I didn't have one kind of strange spiritual experience when I was there like pretty much

01:13:49

This is really I did not think that I went there long enough to really any have anybody say anything But since I was deploying like they called me forward and they like prayed for me and stuff and I was like Oh, this is weird

01:14:00

And then this guy I'd never seen him before ever Appeared after that he came up to me and he gave me a coin which is like in the military

01:14:08

That's kind of a thing you do every squadron Every unit has a coin most military aligned organizations have a coin and it's kind of like a it's a traditional thing

01:14:17

You give someone a coin. It's it's like The whole history of it is basically like during World War one

01:14:23

The these these guys these pilots they they all had these coins that they'd earned or they made for each other or whatever and and One guy crashed and he got stuck behind enemy lines.

01:14:33

And so when he tried to make his way back to The base they almost shot him, but he had that coin with him

01:14:40

Oh, and that's how they knew who he that he was telling the truth That's why I was so the challenge coin thing is like a big tradition in the military

01:14:46

And so he gave me this coin and it was like the I remember the name of Patriot Riders or something like that But it was a

01:14:51

Christian motorcycle like organization club that they had a bunch of old privates or whatever but I'd never seen the guy before my life and like the way he looked at me like in his eyes was like it like Freaked me out because I it was like there was something there, you know

01:15:06

And then like I said, he gave it to me and then he like disappeared and like I remember when he shook my hand

01:15:12

It was like he was like looking into my soul. Hmm. It was very weird and For me, it was like what is this?

01:15:19

you know, and I I think and as I look back on my life, too, I really think it was like Part of like God calling me

01:15:29

Cuz like I remember growing up. I had Christian friends. I listened to like Christian music that I didn't even know was

01:15:34

Christian, right? One of my favorite bands is thrice, you know And Dustin cancer like was a worship leader for a while and a lot of his music is very very influenced by Christian by the

01:15:46

Bible and stuff and So, you know looking back on this memory and others.

01:15:52

It's just like wow Like God was really calling me to him for a long time before I actually accepted

01:15:59

Christ And this was one of those instances but We moved we moved after my deployment.

01:16:06

I changed jobs Well, I used to be a sensor operator on mq9 Reaper drones.

01:16:11

Oh, wow And so I had to come to Las Vegas for that job and When we moved we didn't really have a church and we didn't really think about where we were gonna go or anything

01:16:22

It didn't really, you know Now it's like the first thing we think about like we moved here. We're like, okay, we're gonna go to church

01:16:27

I was like, we're going to apology and he's like it's an hour and so away I'm like, he's like, what are you gonna do if you like it? And I was like, guess we're driving an hour every

01:16:33

Sunday Weeks before I was like, okay finally fine.

01:16:38

We'll check it out. And then after we were done. I was like, yeah We're gonna be staying here Time to start saving gas money.

01:16:44

All right, so we're actually moving closer Anyway, so we we're going to a there there

01:16:57

Kenya Ridge is part of Should we say the name? I don't think we should say the name.

01:17:02

Anyway, they're aligned with a larger body, yeah, yes and So we were going there for a while and we

01:17:10

I remember we really liked it at the time because we could drop off our son We're like, oh we can actually sit together and enjoy a baby the

01:17:17

Christian date service. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah Yeah rock music and then there was a smoking section outside.

01:17:23

We didn't smoke but like it felt like a rock service pajamas For us after the kind of like ooh,

01:17:31

I went away it was like I had no we didn't know anyone this church that had like probably a thousand people per service

01:17:41

We didn't I'm sure but they I mean they're there are their sanctuary was like an auditorium, you know, right?

01:17:46

right, and we didn't know anyone like at all and We would go there. We show up for church.

01:17:52

We'd leave no one would talk to us We didn't have people would say hi, you know the greeters and stuff Yeah, but we didn't have any sort of personal connection with anyone

01:17:59

And so after a while, we're like man this I don't know if we'll like really like doing this and for me

01:18:04

I was still like, oh, yeah, you know the music blah blah blah. I Still wasn't really looking for for God.

01:18:10

I was just kind of doing it. I was just doing it for her I was letting her lead. I was just kind of like whatever if this is what you want to do But I met someone

01:18:19

When I was stationed in Las Vegas who was Mormon, okay, and They invited us to a

01:18:26

Christmas party Christmas cookie party. Yep, Christmas cookie party and his wife and my wife actually became really good friends and Shortly after that she started taking the discussions and I Basically was like, okay.

01:18:40

Well if we're if we're doing this for our son Then I can get on board with that.

01:18:46

I had a lot of good memories as a kid in the Mormon Church I had good friends, you know

01:18:52

I mean, obviously there was some of the bad stuff I mentioned, but I did have some really good friends growing up and I think

01:19:00

For me that was like I want him to have friends like I had growing up mm -hmm, and that's kind of where I saw that coming from because it's what

01:19:07

I knew and So she's hurting the discussions and all that stuff and I actually

01:19:13

Got worthy so that I could take so I could baptize her. So I actually baptized her into the

01:19:19

Mormon Church Oh, wow, you know, it's crazy having done the missionary discussions or lessons

01:19:26

Whatever you want to call them. They were called two different things for me At two different periods back when

01:19:32

I was 18 taking the discussions They were just a little pamphlet.

01:19:37

Okay Little small pamphlet and there was actually one of the pamphlets that had planets on the front of it hmm, so like actually got into Kolob and really discussing the

01:19:48

Terrestrial like celestial like those kingdoms right and and where we came from and where we're going right and now

01:19:56

Or not now but ten years ago, I'm sure they're so different now They're on iPads and you don't actually get to hold them, but then they were little booklets ten years ago

01:20:05

So I had little booklets little fill -in -the -blanks in the back if I had questions I could write it down and There was not one about planets.

01:20:13

There was not a booklet that had planets on the front of it I distinctly like I will

01:20:18

I and I Remember that and so thinking about my missionary discussions I guess seven years prior six years prior to that.

01:20:27

I they were completely different at the time So I felt like this the book was completed like the story was completed all my questions

01:20:35

I had before where it was baptized baptized baptized which might have just been the Little Rock mission like That might have just been their thing because in the south it's very different which

01:20:43

I'm gonna touch on that was one of the reasons I left the church was going back to the south as a Mormon um

01:20:50

There like there was a movie so we got to watch a movie was Joseph Smith's death. Okay, like a martyr

01:20:56

Oh, I'm over watching. Yeah, so yeah, it's more because he has martyrs like I just called his death because he died

01:21:02

He wasn't a martyr. Um He was killed for for his his crimes.

01:21:09

He shot back to you. Yeah, that's it. Yeah Um, well, the reason they were looking for him was because of his criminal gross violation of the freedom of press

01:21:17

Yeah, the Nauvoo Expositor. Yeah, and Watching that The emotion so so each time that they left in the

01:21:28

Las Vegas mission, which like I said And one of the things that I've noticed as I witness to Mormons now is that's not how my ward is

01:21:36

And I and I want to make it clear that each mission field may have different Experiences each missionary that's listening to this may have different experiences in their mission field but in the

01:21:48

Las Vegas mission where I was it was very Experiential it was I want you to take time and pray about this and we're not going to come back for a week or two weeks

01:21:58

Whereas in the Little Rock mission six years before that in 2005 it was we're gonna be back tomorrow

01:22:06

Yeah, and then I want you to know if you want to get baptized and That kind of Change May have benefited the church

01:22:20

Bringing in the experience and the emotions. Yeah Because the emotions are what got me after watching the

01:22:27

Joseph Smith video which was then I believe the same day that we had the families are forever lesson or Right afterwards was what sealed my my fate into the

01:22:40

Mormon Church It for me it was answering the questions that I had as a

01:22:46

Christian where does Satan come from Mormon Church has an answer Being content now as a

01:22:51

Christian with knowing that I don't have to know everything and God will be there when I have the answer When I get to heaven and if I and I you know when

01:22:58

I'm in heaven I may not even have that question because I'll be so content. It won't matter But then my questions to the missionaries were where did

01:23:06

Satan come from? They had the answer Well, I know my husband in heaven because at that time we were still like greatly in love we had just had a baby

01:23:15

We were the prime subject the prime Like you can be with your family for eternity.

01:23:22

Yes for eternity and now knowing that Yeah, I may know my husband in heaven But the love that we have is not even a compare to the motion and the moment that I have with Christ Every single day in heaven right on this restored earth.

01:23:35

Like it's not even gonna matter We may be passerbys But like it doesn't matter right the joy

01:23:43

I will sing hymns every day and that's what like is Missing and so like when you would get mad when

01:23:50

I get mad at my spouse on earth and think this is the person I'm supposed to live eternity with Like oh, you know like no,

01:23:59

I mean, it's true. And yeah, you come to find out other things in the temple About like that may not be your spouse in heaven, but The guy that you guys had on for the ghost hunting episode kind of Oh Jared Fawcett.

01:24:13

Oh my gosh. That was me. Yeah But you know there there's things that you pick up on in the temple when you go enough like your spouse that you're sealed to the reason you get secret names is because You go to when you go to Mormon heaven and your spouse yells out that name, right?

01:24:29

Those are the spouses he gets Your name mine was Camila yours was Alma. Yeah. Yeah another man the name he got at the veil

01:24:39

May be different, you know, it's just like little things like that or I may not hear his call

01:24:44

I may hear another guy yelling Camila and that's my spouse and in heaven. Oh interesting.

01:24:50

Here's what's weird, too But it's a polygamous thing So like he's gonna get all the women in his realm that hear his name and those are the things that break your heart

01:24:59

When you find the truth, like this is supposed to be my solo has husband Well, not to mention like so when you're everyone that went through the temple for the first time when we were going through got the same

01:25:08

Names, yeah, so like everyone gets the same name. Yep that day. The names are by day So so you guys were you guys were sealed in the temple?

01:25:15

Yeah, so like when you go to like the prayer circle in the front There's a part of the temple ceremony where you veil your face.

01:25:22

Yeah, and the men don't Okay, that's for that's that part of the ceremony where like you're basically like saying like and it's crazy when you watch the older temple ceremonies or you hear about and they kind of gloss over it now and it's really when you get into the history of the church and what the purpose of that was which

01:25:40

Goes into the CES letter and like reading the footnotes Knowing that I may not hear my husband's call on that day and it may be another man and not only is it

01:25:50

I'm not The only person to that man. It's ten other women. Hmm. It's so heartbreaking

01:25:56

So, so how does it feel when you think about? John 6 when it says that when

01:26:02

Jesus says that I will raise him up on the last day or I will raise you up on The last day that your salvation is not by being called out by your husband

01:26:11

Whoever that may be but it's actually easier to not be so angry at my husband for eternity But actually it's actually

01:26:17

Jesus. I love you. It's actually Jesus. He says he will raise you up on the last day No, it's beautiful because it's not determined yet again upon another sinner

01:26:27

Like everything in the Mormon Church is dependent upon another sinner Like there's a point where you realize

01:26:34

I can't trust my spouse because they're gonna go tell the bishop on me If I share things with them, we lived that for a lot for a little while Yeah, and it almost ended on our divorce.

01:26:45

I was almost a second divorcee because of and I felt like a failure I felt like there was nothing

01:26:51

I could do Yet again like here I am in church following Christ and and like doing what

01:26:57

I thought I was supposed to be doing and my Marriage was gonna fail again. Mm -hmm, and I remember just like being in church and like And feeling not there's never real joy like with my spouse

01:27:11

It was always like, you know, you have that thing now as a Christian There's the memes that are so true like angry like arguing like you're not getting ready fast enough

01:27:19

And then you get to church and you're smiling. It's not like that in the Mormon Church. Like you are all out like spiteful

01:27:27

Angry and then you come to church and it's like you have to pretend like you love each other and I'm not again not saying

01:27:34

It's like that for every relationship, but there's a lot of people I became very close to and that was all of our experiences

01:27:40

Yeah, you know well There are some statistics you can look up about Salt Lake City in Utah in terms of opioid addiction.

01:27:48

They call it an opedemic Pornography addiction. All of these things are extremely high. They even have a very high suicidal rate

01:27:53

So yeah compared to the rest of the country, but I would say these are spiritual Manifestations of the state that these people are in imagine

01:28:00

I've said this multiple times But imagine being a person who doesn't have the Spirit of God that has to manifest all the fruits of the

01:28:06

Spirit You know how hard that is? Yeah, it's impossible because only the Holy Spirit can truly manifest those things in somebody's life

01:28:14

It's all gonna snap right like something's going to snap, you know, it's not a healthy gonna be secretive probably

01:28:20

Yeah, it's not a healthy way to live. We see that It expresses itself in multiple ways

01:28:25

Eventually someone becomes spiritually abused like you were spiritually abused like you you went I like to call it from out of the frying pan when you first left the church when you're younger and into the fire

01:28:34

Oh for sure. You didn't go to anything better. You had no hope Yeah, and actually

01:28:40

You know speaking of that. I actually Developed a pretty bad pornography addiction while I was a member of the church and that was part of the reason why our marriage was

01:28:48

So terrible is because you know, I had this secret sin that I was you know at times fighting at times not fighting

01:28:54

Right, and I couldn't go to my spouse For any support. I couldn't go to her and say I'm struggling with this

01:28:59

I couldn't do that because I knew that she was gonna go right to the bishop and be like he needs to do this and They're gonna be you know, there's gonna be church discipline or you know, however, they decided to deal with that public church discipline

01:29:09

Private anything like there's no pastoral counseling like there's nothing like if Anything goes wrong.

01:29:17

It's it's public immediately. Yeah, there's um, actually, I don't know I can't remember if it's handbook one or handbook two.

01:29:24

Yeah, I think it might be Handbook one, but essentially they have a book. That's a guide book that tells them

01:29:29

Yeah to how to how to handle certain situations and I find that interesting because the Jehovah's Witnesses have a similar book as well

01:29:36

It's called shepherd the flock of God and what's very interesting to me about that is well We already have the book right?

01:29:42

It's right here and your pastor the elder who should be counseling you should be bringing you to the word

01:29:48

Using the Holy Spirit as conviction as a guide to help you through these situations not a handbook, right?

01:29:56

Right. I mean, that's a big red flag and in my thought process right there But we already know there's also extra books that they have in terms of extra biblical revelation that don't help whatsoever either

01:30:06

But um, yeah, so so walk us through that. So you guys are in the Mormon Church now you got did you get re -baptized?

01:30:12

Do they do that? So since I never had my name removed, okay, I was just inactive oh, okay, so I had to do like a period of You know prove yourself almost kind of I basically had to become like when

01:30:26

I asked I was like get worthy yeah, it was like I Had to kind of basically like go through the things and like have meetings with the bishop and like show that I've I've kind of been improving

01:30:36

But like I didn't know that guy, right? So I'm not gonna tell him all the stuff. I'm struggling with You're just doing what you can to be like, hey, man,

01:30:43

I'm good Like I had some problems with this, but I'm fine now and he's like, all right You know, which says a lot about someone who's supposedly called of God and has like, you know, the

01:30:53

Melchizedek priesthood Yeah, it has the Holy Spirit to help him discern if people are maybe lying or not, you know,

01:30:59

I mean, yeah Or maybe not maybe not lying overtly but just being you know, sure master discernment if you have the

01:31:05

Melchizedek priesthood You should be a very important. Yeah, if you were like a Christophany you should have exact exactly

01:31:10

Christ is the only one who holds the Melchizedek, yeah, so if you have something that powerful, you know, I used to have a Melchizedek priesthood.

01:31:16

It felt pretty good. No, I'm just kidding It felt nothing. I had no there was nothing extra about that So when you became worthy the steps that you took when you're going to the back into the

01:31:25

Mormon faith You weren't necessarily a believer or did you kind of make yourself or force yourself to trick yourself to believe?

01:31:33

How did that work? So this has created many post Mormon Conversations in between AJ and I is like why so like well, okay

01:31:43

This is interesting that you ask him that because I've asked him the same question many times. Okay. Yeah weird Okay, so why did you let me do this?

01:31:50

And it's all cuz God that's the answer Now that we're out of our like anger, you know the cage a where I've been out a few years

01:31:57

There was there was like a how come and there was like why? So, well, okay, let me back up a little bit first off You got to remember like where I was coming from, right?

01:32:08

So for me it was like, all right so I'm doing this for my wife, but he wants to do this and I'm just kind of kind of go with it because I can live in the culture.

01:32:19

Maybe not necessarily Be super involved in the doctrine because you've done it before Yeah, and and I knew many

01:32:26

Mormons actually growing up who were that way who straight -up would be like, yeah I don't really agree with everything the church says but like, you know, yeah,

01:32:32

I have the support I can find a good job. Yeah children are You know, unfortunately, that's the kind of that's a case for a lot of people.

01:32:39

Yeah, is that they they don't They just kind of accept the fact that that's how life is because they don't either they're not courageous enough

01:32:46

Or they don't they don't want to break up their family by doing that. Where else am I gonna go?

01:32:52

Right and for me It was a little bit easier to leave because like my mom had already left at the time

01:32:57

I left Oh, or she was getting ready to that's yeah The only remaining member of the church in my family is my older sister who is a

01:33:06

Whitmer. Okay, so still Yeah, okay. Yeah, she's married to a

01:33:11

Whitmer Like one of the original like family line from from the front of the Book of Mormon witnesses of the

01:33:16

Book of Mormon Wow Yeah, okay. She's never leaving. Yeah We've tried we've we've tried to talk to her about stuff and then she just won't what's all pray for Amanda every everyone

01:33:27

Who's listening here for Amanda? So and actually I've got probably some more stuff to tell about that, but that'll be later on.

01:33:34

Um, so at this point and And I so she was talking about this emotional experience she had watching this this video right for me

01:33:43

I'm sitting back there like, you know, because and this is the weirdest part I know that like the truth because when

01:33:50

I had left I'd kind of done some more research I knew kind of the circumstances surrounding The death of Joseph Smith.

01:33:57

I knew some of the things he was doing But I didn't know specifically as much information as we got from the CES letter.

01:34:03

So I knew something I'm watching it Like wow, if someone could die for their religion like that I'm sitting next to her just scoffing

01:34:10

And I'm saying that out loud like if something crying crying my eyes out if someone could die for their religion like that It must be true for getting

01:34:16

Jesus, right? No one reminded me of Jesus's sacrifice because they don't remind you of that.

01:34:22

Jesus's sacrifice is like Idolatry to think of Jesus on the cross to have a cross in your home

01:34:28

Mm -hmm. And at this time I want to say I was going to school to be a sommelier So I had like three to four thousand dollars worth of wine in our home

01:34:38

And and I threw it away. Oh, wow, and I threw that life away from the

01:34:43

Mormon Church I actually used to I used to brew mead too at the time It was I remember asking the missionaries about it was just crazy to think like What I gave up I guess

01:34:54

Like my future because in Las Vegas that could have been very successful for us at the time

01:34:59

I had driven wine tours in Napa. I was very knowledgeable about wine I'm there

01:35:04

I was very successful wine tour driver in Napa at the time and then we moved to Las Vegas and I was continuing my sommelier school and it just The brainwash like it just that emotional experience.

01:35:18

Yeah, and them not reminding me there was someone sacrificed greater Wow, there was Liberty greater than that Your heart is deceitful above all things desperately sick who can know it

01:35:28

Jeremiah 17 9 We we all know that verse here and it's it's a very Very true thing that is that is powerful make you give so many things up But yeah, keep keep going man.

01:35:38

Talk to us about that. Yeah, so Yeah, and I remember man I remember like whenever she would have me sit cuz

01:35:43

I didn't go to all the discussions But I went to a number of them. I work a lot. Yeah sleeping. Yeah, cuz

01:35:48

I was working I've seen

01:35:56

James Bond. Yeah. Yeah, so So She would have these discussions and then she'd come talk about About them to me later or like I remember being and Mormon friends were there

01:36:08

Because he couldn't be there. They would always make sure that there were other Mormons there

01:36:14

Oh, wow the whole time even when he was there other Mormons were there So it was not just me taking the discussions or just him taking the discussions.

01:36:21

It was two missionaries Sometimes three four mission president him me and like two or three other people.

01:36:28

Yeah Hmm is very interesting. That is very interesting. Mm -hmm. Yeah, and and I kind of remember

01:36:34

Having this feeling of like yeah, whatever, you know if and and I kind of had like a really lackadaisical

01:36:43

Approach to the whole thing it was more like if she wants to do it, that's fine And I still had my own kind of beliefs about like issues

01:36:50

And all these different things and I remember Challenging or asking questions to the missionaries at the time and I Don't remember it was kind of like a negative thing.

01:37:02

Like they kind of were just like they've kind of ignored Yeah, they ignored you. Yeah, cuz you were already a member

01:37:08

Yeah, pretty much. They were coming with me whether I think they knew that. Yeah so so anyway,

01:37:15

I Knew that what was kind of expected of me was to you know, I felt like I had to follow her with this and You know,

01:37:26

I didn't really know any better So, like I said, I got worthy we

01:37:33

I Baptized her and that was actually it was really spiritual. It really was it was really strange

01:37:38

Actually, I remember now I know the spirit that it is right But it was one of the most spiritual moments that I've ever had in my life extra spirit like External spiritual now.

01:37:48

I know what a real spiritual conversion feels like explain explain it real quick the the spiritual experience with the baptism

01:37:54

Well real quick before I get into that. I don't have the same the same upbringing that she did as far as experience with Supernatural supernatural things.

01:38:04

Yeah, I I Remember man, I remember praying earnestly For God to show me something like my whole childhood and I remember

01:38:14

Like the height of my Mormon experiences when I was deacon core and president, you know I mean like that that kind of stuff

01:38:19

But I never had like the oh we went to do patterns of baptisms for the dead and I saw an angel

01:38:25

Well, I was sitting in sacrament meeting and there was an angel looking down on the bishop or whatever Like I never saw anything like that But I grew up with people telling me those stories

01:38:33

Jesus found me in the temple hallway alone and came and spoke with me after that one I've never Experienced anything like that, you know what

01:38:40

I mean? And I remember like praying like reading my scriptures and like praying That that you know for God to show me something and I never ever saw anything but when we

01:38:52

Were in the baptismal font together Satan was not gonna let me go from the Mormon Church It was it was nuts man like I remember and it like I said

01:39:01

Which was which was significant to me because like I said, I I'd never experienced anything like that before for her,

01:39:08

I guess it was kind of old hat, but No, it was it was it was light. It was not it was it was very weird

01:39:15

So to hear after we left the Mormon Church and we were at the church, which we'll get there the church We first went to the day.

01:39:20

We left the Mormon Church We went to a Christian Church to hear you know, Satan comes disguised as an angel of light

01:39:27

Corinthians 11. Yeah. Yeah That is that was Satan and it was like a cloud of light it was

01:39:35

Everyone else disappeared. Yep, and it was just us to No one else was there and we it was felt like I don't even know how to it was like it was like our souls

01:39:46

We're touching. Yeah, and and it was outside of us. Yeah, and and like I said everyone everyone disappeared

01:39:52

And I remember what I was talking about afterwards and it was he asked me. Did you feel something? I'm like, yes

01:39:58

Let's talk about it. Wow. Yeah, it was bizarre. That's very bizarre

01:40:03

Um, I mean now like I said then it was bizarre now. I know exactly what it was, right?

01:40:09

but For us to finish each other's sentences as we were both talking about the experience was just Insane and that was a test and now we know why there's

01:40:22

Mormons that will never leave Mormonism when they have Experiences like that and I and I want them to know that Get into your

01:40:30

Bible and read your Bible and understand Like what the darkness can come as like what the darkness can disguise himself as yeah

01:40:39

Well, it's it's very especially in Deuteronomy. Yeah, it's very interesting to in 2nd Corinthians 11 That's the same section where Paul is warning that there's people who will come and preach a different Jesus a different gospel

01:40:48

He will accept a different spirit. Yeah, and then halfway through the chapter. He brings up Satan masquerade or Masquerading is you know angels of light?

01:40:56

They look like they're doing works of righteousness, but when you read the end of the paragraph you're miserable in it

01:41:01

Yeah, it says their ends will they will meet their ends, which is the ways of death So although it looks legit, although it feels legit

01:41:08

If it's a different Jesus a different spirit a different gospel, the end is death and even in Proverbs 11 There's a way that seems right into a man

01:41:14

But the ends thereof are the ways of death and it's a it makes perfect sense to in a religion that pries on Emotional experiences like in James 1 5 if any of you lack wisdom let him ask of God Yeah, let him ask of God even though there's a difference between knowledge and wisdom in biblical terms

01:41:29

And that's not what the text is specifically saying but instead of saying hey Let's be like the Bereans in Acts 17 11 where when

01:41:35

Paul and Silas go and preach the gospel Yeah to the Scrolls in the synagogue and they come back and they're like wow, you know, this is legit

01:41:48

I see Christ in the gospel proclaimed all throughout the Old Testament. Why because I'd searched through God's holy word

01:41:53

No, don't trust the word Trust your experience and then once you believe the experience guess what

01:41:59

God's words not full missing many plain and precious parts It's been translated incorrectly multiple times and guess what you can become a god one day of your own planet

01:42:08

It's the same lie from the beginning of the garden, right? It says did God say that and guess what you will be just like him if you eat the fruit

01:42:15

So it's a it's very interesting Yeah that you that you bring that up because I think 2nd Corinthians 11 is such a beautiful text of scripture that a

01:42:21

Christian can Use to help show an LDS person because like you said there's a lot of people that won't leave because of these

01:42:27

Experiences and our heart is Christians when we look at these people. We got to go Look, I was once dead in my sin and trespasses and I want you to know the holy

01:42:36

Jesus if if the devil has a hold on you guess what there's only one One person who can take that hold away and that's

01:42:44

Jesus why because he created Lucifer he's not the spirit brother of Lucifer He's not the beckon women call.

01:42:50

Yeah, they didn't fight for the position. They didn't fight one -third. There was not a favorite son Yeah, though.

01:42:55

Yeah, there was no favorite son situation going on No, Jesus was the creator of Lucifer and Colossians 1 explains that John 1 and explains that as well

01:43:02

But it makes me it makes perfect sense to me though that their people would have extremely emotional

01:43:08

Experiences we see that with Mormonism. We see that in the New Age multiple false religions have these emotional

01:43:15

Experiences, but what's funny is God's Word literally tells us to die Die from our emotions and submit to the

01:43:21

Word of God that really convicts us to put our emotions aside And follow the true and living

01:43:26

God. This is the book that says no. No, no, your emotions are leading you astray It's just so interesting to me for a religion like Mormonism That focuses so much on keeping journals and written records

01:43:39

How much has to be left out because if for us to if we were to go and journal the baptism experience

01:43:47

Which I did I don't have it anymore But to if I had kept journaling and maybe wrote about four hours later where my husband and I were at each other's throat

01:43:56

And we were arguing with our family and how miserable the rest of the day was Those are the things that are forgotten because you're only writing about the good things.

01:44:06

Oh, wow and Like even going to the temple we were like it was horrible

01:44:12

Yep, and even after we left we were miserable. Yep. So we were miserable in it. We were miserable at it

01:44:18

We were miserable through it and like but after we left it's like everyone's like, oh my gosh, wasn't that so wonderful?

01:44:24

Aren't you so in love? Isn't it? So great You're sealed in the temple and it's an indoctrination the second you walk out and in my brain.

01:44:30

I'm like no that was horrible No, that was miserable and everyone's like Satan doesn't want you to be here Satan's not gonna want you to be to the temple that everything's gonna prevent you from getting there

01:44:39

So when you're fighting in the car on the way to the temple, just know that it's Satan No, when you're fighting in the car on the way to the temple

01:44:45

It's God telling you to stop and turn around and go find a church like that like I mean those are the things like I cannot believe looking back like Wake up call and you know, it's and it's like someone needs to tell them like and I have such a heart for them like the

01:45:01

LDS people like If you're listening and you're about to get sealed the temple you will fight on the way to the temple and if it's not on the way to the temple, it'll be at your little barbecue afterwards and like that it's

01:45:14

And it's so common, but it was a thing. It was a thing. Don't worry about your fighting before the temple

01:45:20

It will happen everyone fights before they go get sealed. Hmm like that. It's a trope.

01:45:26

It's like yeah We got warned about it. Wow Everyone tells you just keep going.

01:45:32

It's just around. It's just oppression in a sense. It's just temptation. It's just don't just don't let

01:45:38

Satan stop you hmm, and And it's yeah, don't don't yeah Forget the fact that your heart is desperately wicked right and that we follow the whims of our hearts and yeah

01:45:48

You know a lot of times what we perceive as Satan is really just us, right?

01:45:54

Yeah Or God calling us to not go do it right this is your time to stop like there was a time

01:46:01

We were LDS and we went to a Christian Church Christian but there's church and we went for their

01:46:08

Christmas ceremony. Oh, yeah And we were I was desperately trying and I God calling me throughout my

01:46:13

LDS time and I was like, oh look this looks fun Let's go see what it's gonna be like This is like a big thing and like at that time the

01:46:21

Mormon Church like the Relief Society and stuff They were like you should do the Caleb challenge So like they're like pushing you to do the

01:46:27

Caleb challenge, which I mean, I don't know if that says a lot about Caleb right, but her like Christian music these days, but We went to this

01:46:35

Christian Church for their Christmas ceremony and they're preaching the gospel of Taylor Swift boom right into Mormonism Mm -hmm

01:46:46

This this pastor gets up and they well first off they had like This in Vegas like people coming down from the rafters on like ribbons light up bracelet.

01:46:56

Yeah I mean it was like a whole ordeal and then he gets up there and this guy starts talking about Like he talked he like introduced my sermon today is the gospel of Taylor Swift.

01:47:08

Yeah, and he's talking about her Let me show you in the Bible where it tells you to shake it off Mm -hmm, and we got up and left and people followed us out and I said, well

01:47:16

God I guess Mormonism is real If this is what's going on in the Christian churches So sad, yep, and we were in another two three like two three years after that Connor was a baby.

01:47:25

Yeah Okay, so you're serious. Did you guys dedicate him? Do they do baby dedications? Well, he didn't cuz he was too old to get dedicated.

01:47:32

Oh, usually do it for like newborns So he wasn't born in the morning Got you got you.

01:47:39

Okay. So tell me tell me how What was the exodus like what what got you guys to leave?

01:47:44

Okay, so we were almost about to get divorced Well, I was gonna say so we we had a time when we were living apart

01:47:54

I was about I was getting ready to get out of military But I was still kind of stuck there until my time was up and she had accepted a job a lady that she had worked

01:48:02

Virtually wanted someone to be there to work for her physically and so they had just moved to Georgia She's like, hey come out to Georgia.

01:48:09

I'll pay you more whatever and at the time because of our involvement in LuLaRoe Okay an

01:48:19

MLM MLM that I kind of pressured to join too because it's Mormon roots Yeah, it was you should join this for your family and it was very culty

01:48:29

Very culty Okay, all right just edit that that out

01:48:34

Gabe word LuLaRoe is said and just Continue with the MLM. All right, so set go. Okay, so Okay, sorry.

01:48:42

Sorry Gabe slash Carmen Sorry, yeah, anyway

01:48:50

Okay, so We had a time where we lived apart Okay, ready?

01:48:57

Three two one So there was a point at which we lived apart for a time

01:49:03

I was getting ready to get out of the military and She accepted a job with a lady

01:49:08

Who was she was previously doing a virtual assisting with and she wanted someone to be there to do physical like personal assistance

01:49:15

And we were kind of in a bad financial situation Due to an MLM that my wife had been a part of for what like a year at that point

01:49:22

Yeah, like two years. Okay. Yeah, but we did she'd been introduced to it from people from church yeah,

01:49:28

I was like one of the first people to join it because it was Mormon, it has Mormon roots and at that time they were really only

01:49:35

Having people join that were LDS and a lot of the women at my church were like you should do this that you could provide

01:49:41

For your family you can do this for your family And I ended up joining and found there was special treatment for LDS and there were all these other things for LDS people

01:49:52

Ended up putting us in almost a foreclosure So they their tenants were basically the same

01:49:59

You know as it was when you were LDS the pressure was different than if you weren't so they knew

01:50:04

So I was invited to different things because I was LDS. I got it was really interesting Yeah, we've been interesting.

01:50:10

We got to the point where we were like we're Which is insane to me.

01:50:15

Like I was a staff sergeant in the military at the time. So like we should have had plenty of money and Unfortunately, though I was making a good you were making a lot of money, too

01:50:24

But the problem is that all her money all her extra money went back into the business, right? And so So we started having problems with our mortgage and and we went to the church for help

01:50:34

Hey, like we're having a problem, right and they're like, well, we can't help you pay your mortgage, but we can offer you food just keep tithing and That was man

01:50:42

That was so hard because the bishops set across from us one day at our dining table and said I see that you didn't tithe last month and you

01:50:49

Owe us about a thousand dollars or thirteen hundred dollars. So he said Oh, yeah, you're back you back

01:50:56

You're back tithing is about thirteen hundred dollars. I don't say that. Okay, you're backed in tithing about thirteen hundred dollars

01:51:02

So it's like I can't offer you any like food assistance because you are like basically in debt this $1 ,300

01:51:12

So once you pay that Because you make plenty of money you should be able to I will be able to give you food assistance

01:51:20

Then you go to the pantry and get some can right? So we paid the thirteen hundred dollars to the bishop that day sat there and our mortgage was thirteen hundred and ten dollars

01:51:29

So and then we got beans and rice For that so that's the pressure. He said it, you know, if I make if I can tithe ten thousand dollars a month

01:51:39

There's no reason that you can't tithe a thousand dollars a month Not in my brain thinking this guy's been

01:51:46

LDS his whole life and prepared for tithing from birth We've been LDS for about two and a half years

01:51:52

This is new to us like to go from not tithing, you know a thousand to two thousand dollars a month

01:51:58

Like to now having to tithe a thousand to two thousand dollars a month That's a big hit on your budget, especially when we were living strapped

01:52:05

Yeah, we had two brand new cars a brand new house And we weren't like very financially responsible

01:52:12

And so like his lesson was like this is gonna teach you to be financially or you need to tithe have faith in God blah blah blah blah blah, but On the flip side because we were tithing we thought that that's why we got our brand new house our brand new car

01:52:26

You're being blessed. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, and here we were about to be in foreclosure Well, and that's not to mention like all the materialistic kind of keeping up with the

01:52:35

Joneses thing that we had to deal with too We're not had to deal with but we were kind of Culture. Yeah $50 a month gym membership because that's where everyone went.

01:52:44

But when you live by doctors and dentists and that's the Ward you're in It's kind of hard to keep up with them.

01:52:50

Yeah Yeah, I mean it was a lawyer so crazy because I'm like with a very successful practice

01:52:56

It's to look back and be like I shouldn't have done those things and it's really stupid for me to say Oh, I did it because everyone else did it but that's the culture

01:53:04

Like that's and I actually I know we're trying to get to the end Yeah, but I really want to get back into because you're asking why

01:53:12

No, this is an extended episode of voltage and I'm having a great time Yeah, so I kind of want to go back because I I'm still as we're talking about this

01:53:26

I'm like, why did I do this? And and I think honestly at that point,

01:53:31

I think I was I'd finally kind of given in to maybe search for God. I was like kind of giving it another try

01:53:37

Okay, I want to give this I remember like Like our elders quorum president was a good friend of mine and we were home teaching partners or companions or whatever.

01:53:47

They call it and I remember like I Remember going and trying to be super diligent about that stuff while dealing with the problems

01:53:55

We're dealing with at home while dealing with the financial stuff and like not putting together Any of it that hey, maybe we shouldn't be doing this, you know, yeah, it was never the church's problem

01:54:06

It was our it was always we weren't praying enough. We weren't tithing enough. We weren't happy in our marriage

01:54:11

Maybe we needed to go to the temple and do another endowment ceremony Yeah, like stuff like that like it we always turned it against ourselves or each other.

01:54:19

Yeah, I would tell him I just don't know why you can't be like the other husbands at church. Oh, man

01:54:24

Yeah, and I mean I do I feel really bad for that. But I mean he forgives me Yeah, it was a different time, but I don't like to say that to your husband is really bad.

01:54:33

Yeah. Yeah yeah, and I remember specifically like sitting in and this happened more than once sitting there as we're doing lessons to or talking with our our families that we were home teaching

01:54:46

Like just thinking being like hearing a voice in my head like this is all lie This is all bullcrap like this is not you know

01:54:52

What I mean and and me being like, oh, that's Satan trying to get me to you know what I mean? And I thinking about it now.

01:54:58

It's like I bet you that was God probably trying to tell me like hey, man Shouldn't be here. Yeah And I remember

01:55:04

I remember multiple times thinking that and then also like in the midst of prayer like praying for this family

01:55:09

Hearing like this is all lie. This is all lie And and I still was like nah This is what you know and a lot of it

01:55:16

I think was fear to like I didn't want to admit To myself to my wife,

01:55:21

I think really that We shouldn't be here. I made a mistake. I should never have let you get involved with this

01:55:28

I should have so full in I and and and she asked me after the fact to like how come you never told me about Your experiences in the church growing up because I never really did

01:55:37

I never really shared with her the the reason why I left or really much of anything and so when she took the discussions it was just like She almost went into it with you know

01:55:48

Kind of fresh eyes almost and and none of and and that was also another thing, too I didn't want to like taint her opinion because I was very much like well

01:55:55

This is her thing like right. I didn't look at it as like a family familial responsibility or even you know

01:56:01

How biblically how you're supposed to look at it as the father's the spiritual leader in the home and it's up to me It's my job to raise my wife and my child my children, you know wash them in the word

01:56:11

You know, I wasn't doing anything like that right and and so when we were LDS, yeah, it was really I was

01:56:17

Family home evening. I was the one doing the conference stuff like preparation and To try to get him to participate was another was another fight.

01:56:30

It was another argument I just don't understand why you won't do this and then it would come back to like well It's because you have this addiction and you don't want to even be with our family and and you know

01:56:39

It would always go back to him him being the issue never the church, right?

01:56:44

Never like the church being the problem never the fact that we were in a cult.

01:56:50

Yeah. Yeah, it's a twofold issue It's a sin issue and there's no answer for the there's no hope

01:56:57

Yeah, it's just pointed back at you like no you should really pay that $1 ,300 not your mortgage

01:57:02

So we get to use some beans and rice from the pantry, right? Yeah. Yeah, so So we're living apart things are pretty rough.

01:57:09

I wasn't going to church, you know I I actually kind of went into like a pretty deep depression started drinking a lot and and just you know

01:57:16

I live this is when I was in Georgia. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. I jumped forward. Anyway, so we're yeah, we're living apart not doing

01:57:22

I'm not doing great. She's going to church talking me about how like, you know, oh, it's so great over here and blah blah blah

01:57:27

I was lying He was lying to me about drinking. I was lying to him about how great church was there

01:57:33

Yeah, and there was a couple of times to or she because we used to have So when you're in the flying community as I was we would have things called like namings and and different events where we'd go out after work and a lot of it involved drinking and I would tell her like oh,

01:57:48

I'm I go there as the DD. She's like they're really abusing you as the DD We would get in like huge fights.

01:57:53

I'm like, you don't even need to go This is stupid that you're going and he's like, I'm the DD and I'm like, oh, so they're just abusing you because you're

01:57:58

LDS They know you don't drink Yeah Yeah, yeah, so we still make joke

01:58:05

I still give a hard time The things we did when we were sinners. Yeah Unrepentant unsafe sinners

01:58:21

Don't you sell you the name of deep -fried Oreos like that All right, so so then you know,

01:58:29

I get out of the military I move out to Georgia and We finally live together. It's been like a year.

01:58:35

I think at this point we'd been living apart. Yeah, it had been a while It was it was kind of weird, honestly

01:58:41

And we both kind of had to adjust a little bit, but she's like, let's go to church, you know, and I'm like And it kind of was back to the same, you know problems with going to church and stuff

01:58:51

The whole time he's gone I'm going to a church that is nothing like this picturesque LDS church that you see on the front of LDS living

01:59:00

Right. So the the church I call Nevada and Utah the motherland

01:59:06

That like is obviously the church. So I'm I call this not Arizona. Arizona is the redheaded stepchild

01:59:12

I was gonna say I would include Arizona a lot of LDS. Yeah, but okay, so I know it's true

01:59:18

But there's something different about like Las Vegas being like three to four hours away from Like two hours from St.

01:59:24

George Most people that are Mormon that live in Vegas are from Utah like they're from there

01:59:31

They're not like they don't have kids and just continue growing like in Arizona. You find people that like we're Mormon from Salt Lake They've pilgrimaged here and now their family is here.

01:59:40

Right? No, that's like the pilgrimage is from Salt Lake to Las Vegas Yeah, yeah, they just have moved back and forth because their business

01:59:47

George is only a couple hours away. So we would we would go to st. George like on the weekend for me to go from where the pressure is beauty spending four hundred dollars a month on hair

02:00:01

Being pressured into weight loss surgery, which I never did. I never went to Tijuana for that. Thank God Because I've heard some horrible stories about women who did well wasn't just that too didn't they do like plastic surgery?

02:00:14

So like this is my circle, you know and like It was just really scary the drugs like like the

02:00:23

Antidepressants stuff like that to know that this was happening in Las Vegas to go to Savannah, Georgia where you had to drive an hour from church and Where I was told by the

02:00:33

Relief Society president that if everyone in Savannah, Georgia decided to be active one day There would be 600 people per ward

02:00:40

There was maybe like a hundred and fifty in the entire church building at any given time and People had to drive an hour to two hours to go to church

02:00:49

So like that and there was then 600 people per ward for four to five wards.

02:00:54

There are about 3 ,000 inactive members in like the Chatham County area of Savannah, Georgia And that's just insane.

02:01:03

Yeah, like just people just Mormons Mormon ing just talking about the difference in What the

02:01:10

Relief Society president Vegas oh Hmm. I was at home one day and my doorbell rings like 830 at night in Vegas And I we had a three -story house our living room was on the top floor

02:01:21

So to go from the front door to the third floor You kind of see our house, right?

02:01:26

You can't avoid our bedrooms or whatever So I go downstairs and my Relief Society president standing on our front door Which takes you up to the second floor and I open the door and she's like hi

02:01:35

I'm just checking on you. I know your husband's deployed just seeing how you're doing and I'm like I'm good.

02:01:41

And like she's like, can I come in? I'm like Sure, so she walks from so like on the landing you can kind of see downstairs into my son's like playroom and then she kind of looks down there and then

02:01:51

I goes upstairs to the living room sits down on the couch and she's like If Jesus were to walk through your door right now, he would leave.

02:02:00

Oh And I'm like, oh, okay. Well, I you weren't even invited. So I Mean, that's that's the kind of culture in Las Vegas very very materialistic very

02:02:11

My house isn't even that dirty. Like I mean it was at times but at that time it wasn't and so I was kind of like like bye and so I didn't like you're not welcome here and so then to go to Georgia where people are wearing like Cookie Monster pajamas to church and slip in slippers and like the bishop had like Was a known alcoholic

02:02:36

Wow and they would go to bring like food to some of the people because it was very like Low income and there would be like empty beer cans outside their their home and stuff like that was completely different experience for me

02:02:48

Yeah, and I was shocked. I felt like the church had left

02:02:54

These low -income churches to kind of just survive on their own Low -tithing low -income churches, we would show up to church in like, you know full suit like I had a couple full suits

02:03:07

Well, there was a Colorado Mormon there she was there because her husband was in the military we were the only two people really that showed up like like we had been cultured to like yeah

02:03:18

And and everyone else is like one girl gave a talk on the Word of Wisdom on how to read a nutrition label like that like that is

02:03:26

It wasn't even about the Word of Wisdom It was how to read a nutrition label and I think I sat there and I was like this is what they give talks about here like it was very shocking to me and I felt like because it was low income and because this church wasn't perfect like like sending enough money that the

02:03:42

Main motherland had just like yeah left them to their own devices Same the missionaries

02:03:49

What the female the sister missionaries They lived in a very poor part of town and were harassed by male neighbors and the church didn't do anything to help them

02:03:58

And so there was a lot of times they would just be at my apartment Because they didn't have anywhere to go and they didn't feel comfortable being in the house at the

02:04:06

LDS Church provided for them Right, and so it was just and they and no one did anything and the mission president was far away

02:04:13

So it was just crazy. They were in Augusta Which was a couple hours, so it's just crazy to think that that like That that happened like in my mind.

02:04:24

I I thought it was like an injustice like this is the biggest injustice I've experienced right which it's not my biggest injustice was being a white woman in Iraq and Being told

02:04:34

I shouldn't be allowed to be here because I should be having children Okay, but you know by the locals.

02:04:39

Yeah that I mean to tell you that's what I experienced in life And being my life threatened because of that like you know what

02:04:46

I mean, yeah So at that time being LDS that was the biggest injustice

02:04:51

I experienced not being told I needed to pay $1 ,300 to have food right right now.

02:04:57

They're not like a normal thing to us. Yeah, that was normal That was normal. It's it's it's seeing these these young women are probably 18 19 years old

02:05:05

And they're in a sketchy part of town in Georgia, and then the organization's not doing anything to help them

02:05:13

So like I can I can understand seeing that and being like well, where's the consistency? Where's the care?

02:05:18

Where's the love of God within this organization? Why are they leaving them? And they were joyful and they would tell me like you're not allowed to tell anyone that we're telling you this

02:05:27

Right, I'm like who am I gonna tell like I don't even know anybody here Yeah, and so like that's scary too that like I was the keeper of these missionary secrets

02:05:35

Yeah, you know and there was one time they like fleed to my house The the elders to I called brother missionaries because they're not elders by the

02:05:44

Bible but the young male missionaries they They fleed to my house

02:05:51

There was a church member who had called the missionaries and was like y 'all got to come here now I have this whole

02:05:57

Baptist Church ready to convert and So the missionary showed up to their house or to the church the

02:06:02

Baptist Church on like a Wednesday evening Which in the south that's dinner time 6 p .m. At a Baptist Church on on Wednesday that everyone's potlucking or right -clicking

02:06:10

And they almost got shot They were met at the doors with guns and they were about to get shot by the

02:06:16

Christian Church Wow, because the Mormons were coming to proselyte right? So think of Baptist at a barbecue.

02:06:21

It's a Mormon movie. It's pretty funny It was Mormons at a Baptist barbecue. I want to watch it again. Actually from the

02:06:27

Christian perspective. Yeah, I'm not a Mormon And they fled to my house and they're telling me about this this church member and then how she's done this many times put the

02:06:37

Missionaries lives at risk and I you know in my mind I'm like is the church gonna do anything about this?

02:06:43

Like I'm like appalled, you know, and they're like no The church won't do anything about it. You know, they think that she's doing good for the church a bishops

02:06:50

Not gonna do anything about it. Well, that wasn't the first crazy. She would say some weird stuff. Yeah in in church

02:06:56

So but no one silenced anybody right? It was very much like a ever almost everyone.

02:07:01

There was a convert the bishop was a convert So you have to think it's a whole church full of converts coming from everything

02:07:07

Pentecostal Baptist. Yeah, you got everything got a mixed bag And there's no Lifers, that's what

02:07:14

I call them lifers, right? Yeah, you showed set the example well And here's the here's the key problem here and you touched on a little bit earlier, but like growing up in the

02:07:23

Mormon Church The emphasis was not learn your

02:07:28

Bible it was It was like oh you need to read the

02:07:33

Book of Mormon That was kind of the big push was to read the Book of Mormon. It wasn't so much the

02:07:38

Bible and And there was a lot of cherry -picking obviously and So what you have here in this situation

02:07:50

Specifically is you have a group of converts a bunch of people that know their Bible They don't really well, we know what

02:07:55

I'm saying is that the members of the church there don't really know The the Word of God they don't really know the

02:08:01

Bible They're encountering people who maybe do know the Bible in a lot of cases but for the most part not knowing the truth of God's Word and And then just people kind of just have their own wild theories about things and I experienced this growing up, too you'd have you'd have a

02:08:19

Sunday school teacher tell you one thing and it would be like their interpretation of the church's interpretation of Something because you know, they have manuals right?

02:08:26

Right. So they would read through the manual be like, oh well This is what this says and you would get you'd get all these crazy theories left and right about you know, maybe like one passage of Scripture and No one looked at it in like maybe the whole context of a book or a chapter or or anything, right?

02:08:43

There was none of that. I experienced that Yeah, and and that was actually something I really when we actually did leave the church

02:08:49

I had a hard time with I really did was trying to figure out how to actually properly read the Bible.

02:08:54

Well that and Unlearning a lot of things that I thought I knew but I didn't really know and it was kind of just Finding out like what was what was maybe

02:09:04

Mormon doctrine versus like what's actually in the scriptures? But anyway, so to go back to what you're saying for me when

02:09:11

I first joined the church They put you in gospel essentials class and it's like with a couple missionaries and a couple like long lifers like a couple young lifers so depending on Like I think that they kind of plant people in the class because I was planted into a gospel essentials class with someone that had just Joined the class.

02:09:27

They said oh you should go to gospel centrals There's someone your age you would get along with So I went to gospel essentials as a new member a new convert and they're going through the

02:09:36

Bible It's kind of like a I this is 12 weeks It's like a Series so at this point.

02:09:45

Yeah at this point they're going through the Book of Mormon And I'm asking them why is the

02:09:52

Book of Mormon's stating that the the fruits of the priesthood They are the fruits of the gospel and then oh, isn't that so great that God would give us

02:10:03

Like these these crossover revelations like we're in the Bible It may say it's the fruits of the

02:10:09

Spirit but in an art like Doctrines and Covenants in the Book of Mormon It's the fruits of the priesthood.

02:10:15

And so I'm calling out like these plagiarisms But they're confirming them back to me as like like signs of great revelation, right?

02:10:24

And there's a couple other verses that happened to me and that's really where I read the CES letter the first or second one is all the proofs where not only where were

02:10:33

The Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants some things were some revelations were plagiarized the

02:10:39

Inconsistencies and incorrect grammar in the original KJV that Joseph Smith used to plagiarize were also plagiarized some misspellings

02:10:48

Commas in the wrong place. He also plagiarized him there. Yeah, and that right there

02:10:53

I that I stopped reading right there. So what what got you guys to read the

02:10:58

CES? You've got to start this story off. Okay, so he came to Georgia and and we're

02:11:05

So we had to actually asked event we get were called and so they call you we're called Bishop called us to be our son

02:11:12

Sunday school teacher, you know, that's so divine. Yeah that our son needed a Sunday school teacher We just so happened to be available to be open, you know the calling and so we had

02:11:21

The people that were there were not doing their job or showing up or anything Yeah, so we accepted this calling on the sidelines

02:11:28

And then that Thursday he had an appointment at the Basically the unemployment office for a job there.

02:11:35

It was a it was a VA sponsored job fair for yeah So he's at the job there and I'm in the car for like two hours and at this time

02:11:43

I'm just sitting on reddit scrolling on reddit and I'm pretty good at spot a Mormon like Mormons have physical features

02:11:50

Especially if they're like families of Mormons or what? Sorry Anyway game spot a

02:11:57

Mormon, she's really good. No, there's little physical features that they have that I'm pretty good So they're super big in the family.

02:12:03

So yes, and they have huge families. So they're all gonna look alike So I'm scrolling reddit and this

02:12:08

I stop on this post I'm like, oh, that's a Mormon woman and her kids and I read it and it said Thanks to it was like the apologia

02:12:18

Like thanks to apologia and the CES letter and I went back to search on reddit because I had saved the post it's gone

02:12:25

So I think she deleted her reddit because I was gonna bring it and I tried to show it to Jerry like forever ago This was in September 2017 yep.

02:12:34

Okay. Yeah, I've been I've been so you guys had Putting out content like this was the first one was like gospel for Mormons or something like that It was like the first video and it was like thanks to apologia and the

02:12:47

CES letter I've saved my family from the Mormon Church Wow, and I'm like, oh I go to comment and I'm like Let me tell you how bad of a mom you are and like that's you're angry.

02:12:59

Oh, I was mad. And so I go to comment that and and like I said,

02:13:04

I've searched reddit archives. I've searched everything I'd like a lot of things on reddit. I'm reddit purveyor and Of good books and I could not find it.

02:13:13

I've searched I I Open it up and the first comment says if you're coming here to tell this woman how bad of a mom she is

02:13:25

You need to read the CES letter Wow, and I'm like, oh who are you to tell me that?

02:13:32

I can't tell this woman that she's a bad mother. What is this CES letter? So there it goes.

02:13:38

The link was there I opened it up and I start reading it and at this time I was going to school for to be a geologist

02:13:44

So things like plagiarism and and like real fact were very important to me, right like super important So to see the first or second thing in the

02:13:53

CES letter be about plagiarism I was done like that right there. Like no, we don't play with plagiarism at all and I Kept reading until he came out and he comes and sits in the car and literally

02:14:07

I'm like, oh how'd it go? He's like, I'm great. And so I said hey Sometimes I have a question for you and he's like what and I was like, do you think the church is true and He goes my brain was like Are you gonna divorce me if I tell you the answer

02:14:30

Wow, that's what I said, and I said well now I know the answer but no I'm not gonna divorce you

02:14:35

Do you think the church is true? And he goes no Wow quickly to just that was that was the first time

02:14:43

I think I had been honest with her in Three years instantly. Our relationship was amazing.

02:14:49

Yep instantly instantly like it was like we were holding hands on the way home We had not hold him held hands in years

02:14:55

Wow Like that night we went we went home immediately and I told him I found this thing

02:15:00

I want you to read it on the way home We were like 30 minutes from the house And we printed it out and printed two copies and sat there and we read till about like I said three -quarters of it done

02:15:09

We were opening footnotes. We had the digital one up clicking footnotes opening everything looking at everything and It was just appalling the evidence that and not only was the evidence.

02:15:20

It wasn't even on Websites like out it wasn't people's opinions. It wasn't on blogs. It was on the

02:15:26

LDS org website And that was what got me like, like I said the plagiarism thing.

02:15:32

We're done. I'm already done You've already proven to me, but I'm gonna keep going because I got to make sure that like we're nailed so not that that was a

02:15:39

Thursday and we were supposed to go to church on Sunday to Accept the public calling where everyone like eyes us in to church like to be our son

02:15:48

They vote. Yeah, I mean, but no one ever no one ever denies you to be

02:15:54

I know for me reading through that stuff. It was kind of weird because I I I Knew a lot of it

02:16:01

I think but not to the degree and the specificity that it was so it's so good laid out in the

02:16:08

CES letter and So reading it there and seeing like all of the evidence and everything

02:16:13

It was like they have PowerPoints like this guy had PowerPoints from BYU like PhD Like people who had done it as like their doctoral thesis to graduate from BYU, but it was like their shelf break

02:16:29

So like you could click on this thing and it was like someone who was like going to get their doctorates and they had done this

02:16:35

PowerPoint for their thesis and You're reading through it like but they didn't get it.

02:16:41

I just had a really weird memory pop -up Right. I remember being brought in to church one time and having like a special like whatever

02:16:49

They had this guy come and basically tried to like convince us on the archaeological evidence.

02:16:55

Okay and they also talked to us about the House is it iamic pentameter?

02:17:02

I think it's what they call it the way that like one of the way they proof text that they try to proof text the Book of Mormon Basically like yeah, so they brought this guy in and he was like a professor from BYU or something like that This is like when

02:17:14

I was a teenager, I think Anyway, so so this is this is not like this kind of stuff is things they do as you're growing up You know, they kind of present these

02:17:25

Arguments in a sense. Yeah, essentially Yeah, so so we were reading through it and we were supposed to be

02:17:32

Teachers and be confirmed as Sunday school teachers that Sunday four days later. I literally waited until church had started

02:17:40

Bishop I said, yeah, I said, uh, we will not be accepting the calling as teachers

02:17:46

We are not coming back don't during church service So then we publicly left the church.

02:17:53

We tried we took a couple families with us out of church out of that ward We submitted our resignation to quit

02:18:00

Mormon on Thursday. Yep, because it was all attached to see us letter website Once we got into that community immediately that evening we found out how to submit on quit

02:18:10

Mormon So Thursday, we submitted our quit Mormon Sunday. We text our bishop thinking he probably didn't have it.

02:18:15

Yeah, he probably did right after That about that Sunday also

02:18:21

Sunday. We went to church too. I think also well you did cuz I Know one to this day and my family knows that I was

02:18:28

LDS Wow I had a lot of LDS people that I was friends with on Facebook though But I wanted like go ahead my mom and my dad and my non and well my papa rest in peace

02:18:38

No one knows that I was LDS She actually yelled at me one time because I had accidentally left out a book of Mormon when they came to visit one time

02:18:45

My parents found it. Oh, and we had to I had to lie Yeah, so my parents would come into town and we would take all you tell them that some

02:18:52

Mormon missionaries came by Man, and so I would take down all the artwork

02:18:58

So if they listen to this, this would be the first time they hear that you were once a mommy mom So so, okay, so you read the

02:19:06

CES letter secret life But yeah, let me let me just like I want to touch on that like that is the

02:19:11

Mormon life You have secret lives and they're all in Venn diagrams as to who is allowed in to each little circle right each little oval slice and Like you have your secret life that your secret sin because every

02:19:26

Mormon has secret sin that they hide from their spouse They hide from themselves Well, they don't want to admit to They like whatever it is

02:19:36

Wow. So in this mine was like at that time a shopping addiction. I didn't know that I had So so in this Venn diagram, there's no

02:19:43

Section where every circle interlaps with someone being in there the there No one really knows the only one is that you are the creator of all these other little circles

02:19:52

So there's no one that actually has that intimacy. Yeah in your life knowing anything Imagine a Venn diagram.

02:19:57

We're not none of them all in her lap yeah, maybe like one or two like I think like when he shared with me about his addiction and kind of like a little but Like a little sliver, right?

02:20:06

But like that is I mean she was she was telling stuff She would tell her friends more about our marriage than she was the culture.

02:20:14

Yeah, you know what I mean? So she would she would be like, oh he did the they would she would never tell them about a lot of stuff

02:20:20

But but yeah, but I mean she would I remember her telling me after the fact That they were trying to encourage her to like leave me and like these were things

02:20:29

The things that she had told him about I didn't even know right you never talked to me about it

02:20:34

Hmm, you know what? I mean? Yeah, we never had that kind of communication. And so And I but same for them

02:20:40

For them to me right and I found myself actually Burdening their experiences and bringing them home and living them out to my husband.

02:20:49

Oh, wow. Yeah I mean that's that's what happens in the form of idolatry. Yeah, you know, that's what it is You're not looking to the right spot for the answer so instead of consulting with your husband and in trying to work things out with Jesus as The foundation you go to other people like we're like like Calvin says, you know

02:21:06

We're our hearts an idle factor and we're not idle factory and we're never idle in making idols Yeah, and we never find the answers we're looking for when we're doing that humans make bad gods

02:21:15

We try to worship everyone else even ourselves and we always fail ourselves. So so you guys find the

02:21:21

CS letter How do you come to biblical Christianity though? Okay, so that I was actually oh my gosh, so because I God never gave up on me.

02:21:30

And let me tell you wife never gave up on me if I could write Christian music There's a guy for my wife. Seriously would be

02:21:36

God never gave up on me and it would be like that bad worship leader The bad worship leader who just repeats the chorus ever over and over it again

02:21:45

God's sovereignty God's sovereignty like over and over again and that'd be the entire one -hour album But like so we left and I was like we're going to church

02:21:55

Yeah coming out through that album coming out this Christmas. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah Wow, okay.

02:22:01

Okay, so you guys come out and you say you're going to church. How do you know where to go? Okay, so I grew up Episcopal.

02:22:06

Well real quick and I was ready like as soon as we're like done with Mormonism like yep I'm free again, you know,

02:22:13

I mean, yeah He's like I'm dead. Yeah, I was like, hey, what do you wanna do

02:22:18

Thursday? You want to go to a bar like that's kind of how like out that was my mentality, right? Let's go do stuff. We've never we haven't been able to do.

02:22:25

Yeah, you know, yep So Sunday morning, she's like, nope, we're going to church. We were at an Episcopal Church That was a weird a gay pastor gay bishop.

02:22:34

Oh my goodness. It was a very weird experience for me Yeah, so I grew up, you know going to the Episcopal Church back and it's like old days before it became progressive

02:22:42

So to go to the Episcopal Church and see what it was Now was a little shocking.

02:22:48

Yeah, it kind of took me back a little bit But then it was kind of like weird because that guy went to the same

02:22:53

Episcopal Church I did as a kid the liturgy was really strange, too In Arkansas he went to the same church, that's crazy.

02:23:02

Yeah. No, that was that was really odd So we like had like memories like this bishop. Yeah, that is wild.

02:23:10

Yeah, she's sitting there and I'm like, this is super weird No, it's fine. It's fine. It's great. And it's all old people. Yeah Well to me it also felt it felt to Mormon, yeah, not well,

02:23:23

I didn't feel Mormon. It felt too much like Mormonism in in the the ritual Pomp and circumstance.

02:23:30

Yeah, so cuz you know, he comes out in his robes He's got the bowl or whatever. He was holding the liturgy Yeah, the like I said, the liturgy was weird and and for me

02:23:39

I was like, this is so creepy weird I don't like this. You know what I mean? It was a very bad introduction into very very

02:23:45

Anglican like like old -school church to like to go right after Mormonism seven days after leaving the

02:23:53

Mormon Church into an Episcopal service with a gay And I tell you what, she has like five churches lined up and I'm going to the

02:24:02

Episcopal Church I was like, I don't know if I had like I was like, okay Episcopal Church gets done at noon I found this one that goes at one and I was like and then there's one at six

02:24:10

No, there was one. I don't think I could do this. I don't I don't think I could do so Did you know there was a difference essentially between?

02:24:17

like Orthodox Christianity and in Mormonism, or did you think that you're just going to a different?

02:24:23

That Mormonism was a cult I didn't know that it was something different until 6 p .m.

02:24:29

That night. Okay So tell me about the 6 p .m. That night. Okay. Talk about your shirt. Oh, yeah. Okay.

02:24:35

So this is me. This is me My son during this whole time had been going to a karate studio and I had developed like a friendly relationship with the owner and She had become pretty good friends with the receptionist there

02:24:51

And so I don't even remember when did she invite you to church it had been I texted her that day and I was like Hey girl, what church you go to?

02:24:57

Okay, there you go. I go to church at Karate Studio and I'm like you go to Karate Church. What? Yeah Yeah, that's what we call it

02:25:03

Karate Church. Yeah, it's not like that anymore. But they had basically they had planted a church in Pooler, Georgia and at the time they didn't have a church building or really like a huge congregation so they just met at the

02:25:19

At the karate studio at the dojo so it was like, okay, this is kind of interesting So we went and you know, of course for me, it was still kind of like a hood.

02:25:26

I'm gonna go here, you know kind of typical I guess for for my experience up at that point, but I met the pastor we you know, they did a little bit of worship met

02:25:38

You know pastor gave like a pretty sure it was like a devotional wasn't really like a full sermon, right? And then he was like, all right, everybody break out to your groups and we're like what groups.

02:25:45

Yeah. What's that? Yeah so then My friend

02:25:51

Carson was like, hey man, you're coming with me like, okay, so we sit down and there's a group it's probably like I don't know ten men.

02:25:58

We're all sitting in a circle and Carson card starts talking about how he just got back from trace

02:26:04

DS, which is a Like a men's retreat that they do in Georgia. Okay It's kind of unique in that you can only go as a participant once You go once you get

02:26:17

Basically, you have to be sponsored by someone who's already been there you go the one time and then you can go back again But you have to serve.

02:26:23

Oh, that's kind of the deal. Okay. So the first time you go you just go to experience it And while you're there

02:26:28

Your friends and family write you letters Talking about your walk with Christ and you know different things, whatever, but he reads this letter.

02:26:35

His sister sent him while he was gone and The dude starts crying

02:26:42

I'd never seen that before. Yeah ever Here here this grown man, you know about the same age as me.

02:26:50

We're in our 30s and he's crying Describing like reading this letter and then talking about his experience with Christ at this men's retreat and That was the very first time

02:27:05

I'd ever met like real Christian men before who actually

02:27:12

Knew how to show the love of Christ to others why like that vulnerability? Yeah, it was crazy

02:27:19

And from that moment on I'm like, I want to find out more about this This is something I want to I want to find out about so I started going to their small group that met every week and and we started going to their church and Eventually they moved to a school so we started going to the school you were baptized before that was

02:27:38

I mm -hmm Oh, that's right, cuz I had to go to their main building. All right, so their main their main campus was in Statesboro and So yeah,

02:27:49

I forgot about that. So so I've been going to their thing and I had a lot of questions They actually I like cornered him with the pastor

02:27:57

And I was like it's time dude, and he was like, well, my Mormon baptism is good I don't know why I have to get baptized again

02:28:02

I'm like it's your salvation and I don't know why after and Everything clicked for me.

02:28:08

The pastor was like, oh no, you got to get re -baptized man He's like you gotta get saved.

02:28:13

He's like my salvation is good I don't understand why I have to get saved. We're like in the parking lot like cornering him.

02:28:19

Well, hold on a second Hold on before that even happened. Yeah, I'm going there. I'm going to the small groups

02:28:24

I actually got they're like, hey, we need you know, like everyone should be disciple. Everybody should be disciple I'm like, what's that? Like? Oh, you don't have anybody to disciple you here you go.

02:28:30

Here's this guy So then we started meeting one -on -one bless John. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, John we started meeting and so we started doing one on one -on -one intentional discipleship and John the guy who discipled me was actually discipled by the pastor there

02:28:45

Michael great guy both really great guys and and So we're kind of going through the same stuff and me man

02:28:52

I I really had a hard time at first because we're going through stuff We're talking about things and I'm like,

02:28:58

I just have all these questions, right? I'm like, what's this Trinity business all about? You know what I mean? Like that can't be real.

02:29:03

You know, I'm not see ya Yeah, yeah about this. I didn't know anything about that, man. My prophet said that's wrong

02:29:10

You know, so so I'm getting all defensive about that and then I'm I remember I just I remember specifically telling her numerous times like Like I don't think

02:29:19

I can keep doing this, you know, and I remember having not fights But I was very like aggressive with him at certain times because I was challenged.

02:29:25

I was confronting my own indoctrination, right? You know and like I remember talking to him. I Literally described to him the entire pre -existence story of Mormonism like yeah, it's in the

02:29:36

Bible, right? He's like no, that's that's not in the Bible. I'm like, yeah, it is. It's he's like no I was like, oh, well, that's

02:29:46

That's not good. Yeah, so, you know we start looking into stuff and you know, it went at this time

02:29:52

I didn't know this was happening because he would be like, I'm not going to discipleship. I'm rescheduling. I'm like, oh no, you're going

02:29:58

Really hard time like you're leaving. I really I really did struggle Going to discipleship and sometimes even a small group.

02:30:05

I was like, I can't do this. I'm not you know, I mean It was it was really difficult to continue and you know, fortunately my wife is southern stubborn enough to Keep pushing out this house boy.

02:30:18

Yeah So then

02:30:25

But but after a certain point it was like things look things clicked for me and I was like, you know

02:30:32

So I sat down with the pastor one day. His office was a coffee shop right by my house Best coffee shop ever for real

02:30:41

But he didn't have a building so that's where he would go and just do sermon prep and everything and I could walk there from my house and so one day

02:30:49

I just went over there and I was like hey, man, so we started talking and she talked to him about a couple things and then That was when she was like, you know,

02:30:56

I was like, oh, yeah, by the way He's not baptized or saved and he thinks that his Mormon salvation is like sufficient

02:31:02

She called me out at this time in the back of my head I'm thinking that my baptism at 10 was sufficient and that my entire life up to this point was just by chance

02:31:13

So I thought that I was fine and I'm just throwing my husband under the bus like I hadn't done my whole life

02:31:19

So you want me to talk about how I knew that I Mormonism was go. I mean go ahead

02:31:24

Yeah, and then we'll catch up. Sure. Yeah. Okay, so I sit down in my group and the women are doing a study of 1st

02:31:31

Timothy right and so they start I pulled it up on my Bible my trusty Bible. They start reading

02:31:38

Now that we know that the law now We know that law is good if one uses it lawfully Understanding this that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient

02:31:46

For the ungodly and sinners for the unholy and profane for those who strike their fathers and mothers and they continue in Accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed

02:31:55

God for which I have been entrusted so they're talking about false teachers right and first Timothy and It it just clicks and I said, you know, like I don't know.

02:32:07

What do you mean about like false teachers? And I said, I actually just left the Mormon Church this morning.

02:32:13

Mm -hmm, and they're like what and they all just start flipping to Titus and 2nd

02:32:21

Timothy and they're like giving me the qualifications for elders and deacons and like completely Deconstructing like the bishop pastor right term like you can't just be assigned this like it is like a biblical role

02:32:32

Which is why I struggle with the term elder right assigned to like a 18 year old boy.

02:32:38

Yeah in the Mormon Church and Really just just laying into me like the foundational truths of like where the church leadership comes from Right, not even interesting angle.

02:32:51

Yeah, very interesting. Never heard anyone go about that angle yeah, not because that's where my question came from and so from there my

02:32:59

My question to them was so you guys can go shopping on Sunday So they're late.

02:33:05

They're laying out the fine like how you know, we get everything comes from Jesus like pastors

02:33:10

They're you know, they're ordained of Jesus. They're not just like dreamed about or chosen, you know by their friend, you know voted for by Literally, just like laying this out for me and my response was to you guys go shopping on Sunday They're like, yeah girl.

02:33:27

Where do you when do you think I go? Like I'm like, I don't know Just yeah and so that like right then immediately

02:33:39

I Thought that everything I had just done for the past four years was just whatever and Back just I'm gonna erase it straight up out of my salvation story.

02:33:49

Just bloop gone back to being baptized at 10. I'm fine I'm saved. Okay, you know and I remember them asking me.

02:33:56

Are you saved and I was like, yeah, I'm saved I was actually baptized at 10 And and I'm so grateful for the pastor now and I really think that because of our experience and him discussing

02:34:05

Mormonism with us His flock will never falter and let a Mormon person ever leave unsaved

02:34:11

They're like ever leave their group unsaved again, but they got me good. So he gets saved and then

02:34:18

Come like February. I'm sitting in church and God is just like you need salvation

02:34:24

You need salvation you need salvation you need and I look to my friend and aren't that church actually does not like an altar call

02:34:30

But the pastor is like it's such a small congregation at that point like maybe 60 70 people if that Yeah, they're in there in the school at this point like maybe 50 40 50 people and he's you know

02:34:41

It's really interpersonal relationship at that point. It's still like a big life group. So they're their main

02:34:48

Growth like plan I guess for their churches is through those small groups because the life groups.

02:34:53

Yeah. Yeah Yeah, they yeah the different names for my guys. What do you guys? Yeah, same kind of deal so you have like your group and then once you reach about 12 people you kind of multiply

02:35:04

They call you invite people to church by inviting them to your connect Yeah, and that's kind of how they're the majority of their ministry happens.

02:35:09

Everybody that leads One of those groups is actually like called by the by the pastor

02:35:15

You know and kind of discipled to make sure that they are, you know doing yeah And they go out there and evangelize and stuff.

02:35:21

Yeah, it's great so I'm sitting there with my connect group leader and the girl that was the

02:35:27

She never left my side Stacy and like she's still she was actually the receptionist at the karate studio the front desk worker and I'm looking at her and He said, you know

02:35:37

Like I said, it's so intimate at that moment that he could literally say is there anyone here that wants to pray for salvation?

02:35:43

like our print like there's a couple people waiting to pray for you and I'm looking at her and it was like Super Bowl Sunday because you were not there you were with her husband

02:35:53

Yeah, so I was I was friends with her husband But her husband worked like a weird I think he worked night shift

02:35:59

So I never saw him and like he would come to our group like every so often

02:36:04

It was very very rare that he would actually be able to come and so he was like, hey I'm off for Super Bowl You're like you want to come to the house and hang out and I was like, man

02:36:12

I should go to church, but I'm gonna go hang out with this guy cuz I don't ever get to see ya Right, so I'm looking at her and she's looking at me kind of like what are you like?

02:36:20

I'm like, I don't know like should I say something and she's kind of like looking at me. She's like Like are you saved and I'm like,

02:36:26

I think so and she's like that's not the answer You know and she's like if you she like grabs me and I'm like like shaking almost in tears

02:36:37

Like basically like all my conventions are going down like everything my cognitive dissonance left from my previous cultural now

02:36:44

We're breaking down cultural Christianity, right where I thought I was saved right now. So we've skipped over the

02:36:50

Mormonism We're jumping straight to my childhood Yeah, and she's like if you walk out of this building right now and get hit by a bus, where are you going girl?

02:36:58

You got it. Like that's I'd have always used that evangelism line when it comes down to like hot -pressed Evangelism people no, it's real and I and I'm like,

02:37:06

I don't know and she's like, I think you know the answer pastor's already done With this he's already done like we're over the was

02:37:15

Miss every song like the closing song and I like straight up and just like me and he turns around and he's like What like literally he's like,

02:37:26

I think we have somebody and I just like lost it I'm like in tears and like Kelly one of my really good friends

02:37:34

Kelly and Meredith came and They were like holding me and just like they took me out to the hall because I couldn't even like take it anymore

02:37:40

It was like everything that I had like held on to Like that was my conversion like so to think that all these moments that I'd had in my life

02:37:49

Where I thought that I had been saved like that was it and like they're like, why are you crying?

02:37:55

This is not a sad time Christ took my burden just now. Well, yeah, that's what I said I was like, I I said

02:38:00

I feel like free like that's what I told them I said, I feel I feel free now, you know, and they're like, so these are half like they're like So these are happy.

02:38:08

These are my friends, you know, so they're crying for a happy reason I'm like, yes Wow, and they're like, okay, and they just held me for like an hour.

02:38:15

Yeah And my real right there. Yeah, and and I tech I end up texting him like too bad you weren't here

02:38:28

Don't miss church Super Bowl, that's funny people get saved on the Super Bowl. Yeah, and I got baptized on Easter super saved

02:38:35

Sunday. Yeah, right super safe Sunday I got baptized on Easter on Easter beautiful and the freezing cold water.

02:38:41

It was just like I Was so crazy to like shake Mormonism and think that I was fine

02:38:48

Yeah, and still think that I was fine and saved and God being like no, you're not this is

02:38:53

I'm calling you now. Wow Yeah, I think a lot of people go through that because we had a couple friend a couple's we were friends with a couple

02:39:02

That's the best way to say it Yeah, we had a couple friends who also left

02:39:07

Mormonism This is when we took him with him after we started getting stalked by the missionaries Yeah, you're talking about the couple we took with us.

02:39:15

No, and the missionary started stalking us. No, I mean This is when we moved back to Las Vegas Anyway, I'm out of I'm out of order here, but I'm just saying that that the idea that your baptism still holds holds water no pun intended

02:39:31

When you're Mormon is very real like people think that that is like when you even when you leave Mormon I'm like, I'm good.

02:39:36

Yeah, right. And I mean, like I said, I went through it. She went through it You know and even we like I said, we met we had a there was a a couple friend of ours

02:39:45

From our Christian Church who kind of felt the same way about it I still feel like there and we you know,

02:39:51

I've tried to explain to them kind of that that's not the case at all Your baptism doesn't save you.

02:39:56

No, it's actually To Mormonism into a different gospel right definitely does not save you.

02:40:03

Yeah, so So once we left like I got back honestly,

02:40:09

I was man I was so excited like what after I got baptized I felt weird cuz I was in front of everybody

02:40:15

But like my son ran up and hugged me. I was like trying to cry the whole time like it was it was crazy

02:40:23

So this is this is the their their shirts they sell at the so he he's moved studios

02:40:29

He's got like a whole new karate studio and went back He's like, hey, man, here's some shirts, right? And so I wear this all the time, but it's it's their their shirt

02:40:36

They sell at the karate studio where where the church got started Wow, you know, man I feel like pastor

02:40:42

Jeff needs to meet that guy Yeah, and And now the their church has grown so much they have like a dedicated building

02:40:54

They actually they actually moved from Pooler to Savannah because they wanted to be more. Yeah, it's it's they've been growing like crazy.

02:41:00

Yeah Just using the lingo People say split it's kind of like a negative.

02:41:07

Yeah, I know I'm totally new. Yeah So so it's been just great like not only seeing their church grow right but also knowing that like we

02:41:21

That God put us in Georgia in a place where we could be strong Christian with strong Christians where we could be surrounded and and Not have to go through those same problems that I've seen we had friends of mine and other people where you leave the church and you

02:41:38

Whatever that's the problem with the like the CES letters is great in a sense where people can come to know that the

02:41:44

Mormon Church isn't true. But however, then what's what's after that exactly from out of the frying pan and into the fire

02:41:49

You know, you actually had there's a faith -based System around you biblical Christianity Christians you went to the right church

02:41:57

God ordained that specific time ordained your past There's no other way that it could happen

02:42:02

Exactly already like kind of broke so like Connor going to karate was really difficult

02:42:07

But like that was one thing we were never gonna give up like was karate I mean, we were never gonna stop paying for our son to go to karate.

02:42:14

So we kept that relationship months after we shouldn't have and And like it was just like weird

02:42:20

We were always able to afford karate for our son and it was just like when you look back and like all the time

02:42:27

This is before we got saved even Yeah, yeah before we went there to church and so all the time that God Like placed people in our lives intentionally and all the times he didn't place people in our lives

02:42:39

Because had we moved to Georgia and the church been the what it should have been or whatever you want to go the LDS Church Should have been

02:42:45

LDS Church standards Finding the CES letter would have chased me back to church for questions the

02:42:51

LDS Church Or had we still been in Las Vegas like And it's so I love that the

02:42:59

Bible even reiterates like, you know people use it as like a cliche like oh You have seasons of your life people come and go in seasons

02:43:05

That's biblical Like God places people in your life and takes them out of your life when you when he's done with them being there

02:43:12

That boss the second we moved there. I lost that job. Hmm, and we were in Georgia like it

02:43:18

She moved me to Georgia and I lost and and she kind of get was done with that business so I was stuck in Georgia and So he so he moved and got a job and then his job brought him his new job then brought him back to Las Vegas Where now we were hated

02:43:37

Hated so I had when we left the church. I would like I said, I was kind of public about it But not even that we had not that you weren't that public you made like one.

02:43:46

I made a Facebook post and you post Yeah, yeah, and yeah, but I got calls from people that within a day

02:43:53

It was within a day of the quit Mormon someone told me I thought you were I thought I always thought you were a good Person. I thought you were a good a good father

02:43:59

Why would you leave the church Vegas were like calling and harassing us before we had even made an announcement?

02:44:05

So the quit Mormon for whatever reason the church must have thought we were still in Vegas and it assigned it to Vegas And so we were getting calls from people within 24 hours of us submitting that by Friday and Saturday From people in Vegas asking us why we were leaving the church

02:44:20

I thought you were good people thought you were a good father And then we took a couple families after we started going to that Christian Church Connection Church We convinced a couple people to stop going to the

02:44:31

Mormon Church now there I don't believe that there are any Christian Church because we were very cage stage We didn't know how to disciple them into a

02:44:38

Christian Church And I pray that God is with them every day but We had

02:44:45

LDS missionaries like outside our house So like 11 o 'clock at night watching our house to see like who was at our house or like what we were doing in the world

02:44:53

Yeah, it was weird. It was really weird. It was very strange. They're like we look and they'd be behind us or like, you know Yeah, that's very odd.

02:45:00

It was like some Scientology stuff. So yeah, they're speaking of Scientology Yeah, so the way so okay up to finding the

02:45:06

CES letter Was it up to or right after so Leah Remini Scientology? I think we saw it concurrently

02:45:13

Oh, yeah, I was about the same time So at the time I'm in this MLM or had just left MLM I just lost the job that was kind of attached to that MLM The Scientology show comes out and I'm equating everything in the

02:45:26

Scientology show to what that MLM had to do like wow This is just like the

02:45:31

MLM. I was in these are the same things that they made us do Wow So like I'm watching the

02:45:38

Scientology show we find the CES letter and I remember watching the show right after finding the

02:45:43

CES letter and It clicking this is just like Mormonism Not as it just forget that it's just like the

02:45:51

MLM. This is just like the LDS Church Everything she's saying like what not the little electric test but the brainwashing and the indoctrination and the

02:46:03

Fear tactics like having your friends follow you that the missionaries following us after that like the missionaries being outside her house

02:46:11

And then that being on her episode about the church members taking pictures of them while they were walking around Yeah, that was literally like I broke down I would think

02:46:20

I was like laying on the ground in our house like in a ball crying Oh, yeah, like I I told him

02:46:25

I need Colt I need Colt therapy and after that I ended up reading Finding a bunch of articles online like how to handle leaving a

02:46:33

Colt so I kind of did like self -therapy along with Biblical stuff like with my

02:46:40

And with my small group but And I'm grateful. I did it and go to me

02:46:46

It's amazing what God probably would have took me out of Christianity God's Word of Truth will do you know? So yeah, so grateful.

02:46:51

I had the Bible my small group and those those resources online. However, I wish there were more

02:46:58

Did you just leave a Colt in a Christian reason, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. No, that's very very true

02:47:03

That's one thing Jerry and I talked about a lot like you can watch the Remini Scientology in the aftermath or you can do

02:47:09

Steve a song combating Colt mind control They have these standards that they appeal to you with no actual real answers into why those standards even matter in the first place

02:47:17

Christians should be the ones that actually are standing on the Word of God very vocally about these things and it's yeah

02:47:23

JK van Balen who stated that the Colts are the unpaid debts of the church and that's a very real thing that we're facing today in our society and We can see what happens when the church is inactive in a in a nation

02:47:35

I mean America is facing it with the judgment that we see all around us It's also I would say is the the unpaid debt of the church, you know

02:47:42

It's time to to rise up and preach the gospel and truly believe that Christ is King and that he reigns over every realm

02:47:49

That we that we can that we can see he's over every government It says that he's over every every rule and authority

02:47:56

He is master of it and that's our King and we're citizens of that Holy Nation and it's our duty as Christians Do you know preach the gospel?

02:48:04

Which is the freeing truth of salvation. I Mean, that's the only way we can live in a peaceful world a peaceful society is actually people being dead to sin and free

02:48:15

To Christ to actually know what it even means to be human again Like we're lost we're lost, you know without that.

02:48:21

There is a point where we started to feel lost and complacent in our Christian Church And I'll self -admit that we started to equate a lot of the service

02:48:30

You know was setting up a church or setting up a school for church to some of the same service We felt in the

02:48:35

Mormon Church. It was still very fresh and new to us So God decided that we were moving back to Vegas.

02:48:41

Mm -hmm. I do before we get into that I do want to say one thing like when when I You know when

02:48:47

I got saved I remember Turning to my pastor who was with me and my wife was with me too, but and asking him

02:48:56

Okay, what now and he goes well now the real work begins, right? Right, and and I think that that is also something that's really important and really missing

02:49:04

Really missing from a lot of evangelical churches today. Is that they look at That moment of salvation as the peak as like the peak of your

02:49:14

Christian experience Whereas where the real joy Comes in that justification or that sanctification process and and where you really get to know

02:49:25

Christ Wow, you know what? I mean? Yeah, and and I've we've been to a number of different churches and I could say that that's that's pretty accurate

02:49:35

So so what what you're saying, which is really powerful to me Is that because you have peace with God you can now enjoy sanctification and sanctification is not necessarily something that is

02:49:46

Enjoy, right? Well, well, they're suffering for the sake of Christ and being disciplined by a holy

02:49:52

God Which is loving and in that suffering the Christian knows it's only because he has peace with God that he

02:49:58

Experiencing the loving discipline hand of God though so you can have joy Throughout it in terms of your sanctification.

02:50:05

Like you said that shouldn't be our peak. Is this the moment of our salvation? That is an amazing beautiful moment of our lives Of course the

02:50:10

Holy Spirit taking a heart of stone replacing with a heart of flesh But now he who started a good work in us will not leave us

02:50:17

He will complete it the Bible promises us that so we have joy as Christians in suffering where if you

02:50:24

Go to anyone else who is suffering. It's not suffering under the discipline of God It's suffering under the wrath of God and that's a hopeless suffering, right?

02:50:31

And that's where we I think as you're talking about the Evangelical Church at large May very well suffer from the fact where they don't want their people to suffer the discipline of God Yeah, they want you to focus on one peak instead of actually continuing your walk with the

02:50:44

Lord and putting those sins to death Which can be very painful, but but but the truth is is that suffering in the

02:50:51

Bible suffering with God? Try to find one text in the New Testament that says it's a bad thing. Yeah, it does not find one

02:50:57

You will not find one. It's a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful thing because it's love Well for AJ, I mean,

02:51:03

I hope you don't mind but like when he was baptized He was still dealing with his addiction, right? And I remember you asking me like even a year into it

02:51:12

Like why would God save me and still have me deal with this in spite of your sin? Yeah, yeah, and I think that in fact our when we kind of transition to Our kind of understanding of reform theology.

02:51:24

I think that's really where for me That was really where I I kind of I don't really cry from books a lot

02:51:31

But I was reading this book that was it's called a humble humble Yeah, and and he was talking about I think it was irresistible grace and I'm like it just it really hit me, you know

02:51:47

Like that. I'm this wretched thing and that God would actually choose to save me

02:51:54

For myself. Amen, you know and and I'm even getting it a little bit now, but it's like the weight of that I Don't know that you can never pay that back.

02:52:05

Right? That's that's you can't do anything to make up for that and other than just be thankful and Worship, amen, you know, and that worship is what gets you through it is what conquers those things.

02:52:20

That's right That's right guys guys. This has been a great I don't I don't want to end it but we've almost on three hours

02:52:31

Now we're in Arizona This is gonna I think we need to do another one another episode with Jerry.

02:52:37

It'll be great This is I hope everyone who's listening has had a wonderful time listening to this I know I've I feel like I've been on an awesome an awesome ride right now getting to know you guys and It was a beautiful conversation.

02:52:48

Yeah, beautiful conversation. So Everyone who has listened we we pray that you pray for us continually for cultish

02:52:55

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02:53:16

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02:53:21

So again, thank you so much for listening to this episode of cultish And we'll see you next time as we enter in to the kingdom of the