The Mormon Multiverse Jesus

The Mormon Claim to Know Jesus by Feelings and Service

You got a second to talk, but why do you believe that this church is a true church if you don't mind me asking?

I believe that Jesus Christ is my savior. I've come to know that just by my feelings in my heart and the different experiences I've had.

So he.

Exemplifies charity and.

Like humility and.

So through that I guess I've come to know him and understand him and he's good. I love to serve people, it brings me joy. I love to I love to help others feel his love.

Thanks for sharing. I appreciate that. So are you a missionary, a return missionary? Where are you going? That's exciting. Do you already know Spanish? A little bit. Yeah, cool. That's exciting. So have you ever like talked to the Christians before like When I say Christian, I mean like someone who's not a Latter-day Saint.

There's a lot of those in Spain a lot of Catholics too, do you know like kind of what the differences are. Well, so like Latter-day Saints and Christians for example.

Yeah, so I know that we also believe in the Book of Mormon, which is another testament of Jesus Christ and you guys use the Bible, which we also believe in.

Okay.

Have you ever heard That we believe in a different Jesus than the one that your church teaches?

I haven't, but after reading the pamphlet, yeah, I do realize that.

Okay, so what do you think about that?

Um, I don't know, I've never been introduced to the different idea of there being two different Christs. So, I thought that was interesting, but I feel like, so yeah, I was curious, I was going to ask you, what is the difference between your Christ and the Christ that I believe in?

Jesus, Lucifer, and the Mormon View of the Son of God

Okay, good question. So maybe if we could keep it really high level I'll pose a question to you. And then you just give me your honest answer, okay? So if I were to say the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Teaches that Jesus is the creator of all things and all beings Including Lucifer.

He was eternally God. He's not the elder brother of man, and he's not the brother of Lucifer. Would you say that's what your church teaches or would you disagree?

I would disagree with that. We believe that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are brothers. Sons of Heavenly Father. So, yeah, that's what we believe.

Okay, so what do you think about the difference though? Because in the form of the question, you clearly denied it, which I appreciate. So, we've got a difference there, but we use the same term. And I think we would both agree that what the Bible says, we believe it, right?

So similar source material, similar name, similar historic person, but the identity is different.

The identity of Lucifer or of Jesus is different.

Right, right.

Because there's kind of like a big gulf between the creator of Lucifer and the brother. So, how would you as a Latter-day Saint, I guess, you know, reconcile the idea? Because I was actually reading in the Book of Mormon today I think it's in Words of Mormon where there is the phrase false Christ in there.

Or maybe it's Omni. I don't know. I read through the one chapter books today, Omni, Jerem and stuff like that. I saw it in there and I highlighted it. I was like, oh, that's interesting. But Jesus warned about false Christ in Matthew 24.

So did Paul in 2 Corinthians 11. And really what that means is false teachings about Christ. So to take the pressure off us for a second, if you ever speak to a Muslim like on your mission and you ask them what they thought about Jesus, they call him Isa.

What they say is Jesus didn't die for sins. He wasn't the son of God. He didn't die on a cross and he wasn't resurrected. But as a Latter-day Saint, how would you show him that he's wrong?

Doctrine and Covenants 76 and the Purpose of Jesus Christ

Okay, yeah, so are you familiar with the Doctrine and Covenants?

A little bit, yeah.

Okay, yeah, so there's actually scripture in there that I'd probably pull up. This one happens to be D &C 76.

Okay.

And it says, and this is the Gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us, that he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world and to bear the sins of the world and to sanctify the world and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness.

That through him all might be saved from the father who has been put into his power and made by him. So that's what I would share. So this kind of just describes the purpose of Jesus Christ, what he was sent here to do, and who he was sent by.

Okay, yeah, I think a lot of Muslims would not regard D &C, but they would accept Bible.

Yeah.

Do you think you would point them to Bible passages that testify of those things?

Yeah, this is just one I have. I was just reading in the temple.

Gotcha, makes sense. Yeah, so we would do the same thing, you know, when it comes to what Joseph Smith taught about Christ. Because prior to Mormonism coming about, the idea that Joseph presented, namely Lucifer being the brother of Jesus, the pre-existence, the council of the gods and things like that, you don't actually find that in Christian history anywhere.

And what's interesting about that is it claims to, Mormonism claims to be a restoration of the fullness of the gospel. And Boyd K. Packer, one of your late apostles said, a restoration is to restore that which was known anciently, and it's not a new invention.

So, you know, as a Christian, I would say, my name's Craig, by the way, I would say, you know, it's interesting that Joseph Smith has a different idea about Jesus that we just don't find in history anywhere.

So the challenge I would have for you is, you know, think about, we already identified that one difference, right? Different Jesus, but we affirm a lot of the same stuff, right?

Like about Jesus and his character?

Yeah, so there's a lot of shared source material. But if you think about it in terms of like, like episodes of like a book series, like Harry Potter, for example, right? If we were to say the pre-existence is like the epilogue to the identity and life of Jesus.

And then we got the Bible. And then the Book of Mormon is sort of like a prologue, a pseudo prologue of sorts, at least until he goes back up to heaven. But it's that prologue in particular that changes the identity fundamentally.

So it's kind of like, it's kind of like, are you familiar with any of like the Marvel movies where they have like multiverse characters and stuff like that? It's kind of like a multiverse Jesus, right?

Where the Jesus that Joseph Smith taught about, he doesn't exist in this universe. If I could, you know, gently challenge you with that concept. So what our concern is, you know, for Latter-day Saints, such as yourself, is there's a test for a prophet in Deuteronomy 13.

And it basically says, if a prophet or a dreamer of dreams comes among you and say he has miracles, he has signs and wonders like Moses, right? Like with the staff and the plagues and stuff. But he leads you after false gods, which you haven't known.

God says he's a false prophet and you're not to listen to him. So and then it goes on to say, the Lord, your God, is testing you to see whether you love him with all your mind, might and strength. So if we put it into a modern context, if God is testing you by saying, you know, here's the biblical standard.

And here's what Joseph's teaching you.

Right. So according to just that one passage, Deuteronomy 13, one through five, he fails the test of a prophet because he taught something different about Jesus. And that's just only one point. There's other things.

Have you read, I'm curious, have you like read the testimony of the eight witnesses?

The three and the eight?

Yeah, I find those to be super powerful. That's how I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet. So, yeah, I love reading those and I feel the spirit through those. So, yeah, I'd encourage you to read those again and see what you feel.

But yeah, I that is a good question. That is like I thought I'm intrigued by.

Baptismal Covenants and the Test of a True Prophet

OK, so let me ask you this and then I'll let you go. I know baptismal covenants are a big deal. Right. And part of that is keeping the commandments. Right. So if what I've told you tonight is correct.

If Joseph Smith did objectively fail, fail the test of a prophet, regardless of what you perceive as a witness. If if you were to go on Sunday and renew your baptismal covenant vows, could you actually be renewing them if you're actively breaking that commandment by affirming what Joseph taught?

Yeah, that's a good question. So you're talking about the commandment of thou shalt not worship false idols?

Well, it's just the one from Deuteronomy 13 where it says don't listen to false prophets. If they try to leave. Well, so it's part of the law. The law in the Torah is just the first five books of the Bible.

There's six hundred and thirteen commandments. We're only talking about the one. But if you wanted to lump it under, you could say it's lumped under the first commandment that Jesus summarizes in the gospel.

The first is to love God and then the second is to love neighbor. So if you think about it in that way, you ask the question, is it loving God to love a false version or a false idea about God? God says no, because he does say in the law, I am a jealous God.

All right. So he's jealous for our affections and our attention and our worship. Right. So I would challenge you with that. Think about that before you go renew your covenant vows, because scripture does say, you know, what you vow with your lips, the Lord will hold you accountable to it.

So if you affirm what Joseph taught and if what I've said is right, then every time you do, you're in sin. And that's my concern for you. So just so you can see what I'm talking about here. There's some references along with some scripture in there.

So feel free to double check it. So, you know, I'm not making it up. And in the event that there's something wrong, we'll be here next week. I wrote this. So.

So these quotes, there's a quote on the other one. These quotes are from you on the back.

Yes. Well, so I wrote the whole thing. But like the scripture passages here, I did the reading on them. So I kind of just lay out the basics because there's two main tests of a prophet. We only talked about the one.

I think it's the most important. Just because, you know, like you, I love Christ. I have a testimony that he's really changed my life. But the truth of the matter is, there's a lot of people who proclaim Christ.

False Christs, Testing the Spirits, and the Need to Test Joseph Smith

And they have different ideas about him. One last example, there's a guy in Siberia. His name is Vissarion. He claims to be Jesus reincarnated. So, you know, if we go as a fun thought experiment. Why don't the Latter-day Saints move to Siberia and follow him?

Because he's Jesus, claims to be Jesus. And he's produced like 17 volumes of scripture. So you go, why wouldn't the Latter-day Saints follow him? Why wouldn't I follow him? And I would go, well, I have a standard in scripture where it says it doesn't say anything about Jesus reincarnating.

It does warn a false Christ. And so it tells me to test them.

And so do we. And we also follow a true and living prophet on the earth.

And that's not what he is telling us.

Well, to gently push back. If what I've said is right, they couldn't be a true and living prophet. What that would mean is that there's a succession of false prophets. And so that would be my concern for you.

Give it some thought.

You know, read the scripture. Really think about it. Because we believe that we have different gospels fundamentally. Like, we believe this building serves no purpose in light of what scripture says. Just because when Jesus died, the gospel says he tore the veil.

So all have access to God. But for some reason, the church put the veil back up. And then they restrict access to the people.

Well, that's a part of the restoration. So, you know, Joseph Smith was conferred the keys of the priesthood and stuff. So that's how we are able to operate temples on this earth today.

That's the first thought that comes to mind.

But if that's what you're saying about false prophets, that would be true.

Right, right.

So really, it does hinge on Joseph. And so that's why it's important to test the prophets. And like the scripture says, test all things. Test the spirits. Hold fast to that which is good. So by all means, don't just take my word for it.

Check the references. And again, if I'm wrong, I will gladly accept correction. And we will make some retractions.

Yeah, yeah. So I've come to pray about it and know. So I mean, I'd love to pray more about it and understand more. So yeah, I invite you to do the same.

Sure, sure.

Thank you so much for talking to me.

What was your name?

I'm Cece.

Cece, nice to meet you.

Yeah, nice to meet you too.

And you're Craig?

Yeah.

Okay, cool. Well, maybe I'll stop by again.

Okay, sounds good.

Thank you.

Have a good night.