Human'isms' vs Christianity

Humanism as a Worldview Apart from God

So I begin.

No, I'm going to Announce make an announcement and then Stacy's gonna make an announcement. So here we go. Welcome to creation fellowship Santee. It didn't work. Parting can go. Welcome to creation fellowship Santee virtually there.

We've been meeting for 10 years originally in person, but now online for almost two years. We're a group of people who come together to learn more about the creation account that happened some 6 ,000 years ago.

You can find creation fellowship Santee on Facebook as a private group and at our public page. You can just search Santee creation fellowship Santee In Facebook and you can also find our past presentations on our three video platforms YouTube rumble and bit shoot by searching creation fellowship or just CFS.

If you have any questions, you can email us at creation fellowship Santee at gmail .com. We're doing a new thing in 2020. We're partnering partnering with throughout all ages ministry and Stacy will tell you more about this ministry and introduce our guest.

Okay, Stacy. All right. Thank you so much Robin. Let's open up in prayer before we get started. All right, please join me Lord God. Thank you for this time. We are so grateful for your Technology that you have brought our way and that we could meet all over the world to proclaim your word and I just pray that you bless those have arranged this and always so Diligent in making sure this all works out and I pray you be with our speaker tonight as the words that come forth from his mouth will be from you and may we be blessed by his message and Be able to take it elsewhere Lord as we learn The truth of your word Lord, we love you.

And thank you for this night in Jesus name. Amen. So I'm really excited about this speaker. First of all, let me tell you a little bit about throughout all ages ministry. We're throughout all ages ministry 1530 apologetics we go into the public high schools junior highs and elementaries to build up the students character to intellectually Have them think about their worldview and weigh it with truth.

65 to 85 percent of kids who grow up in the Christian home end up walking away from their faith. So Apologetics is very important. And one thing I want to share about our speaker tonight him and Joe My husband my late husband worked on a curriculum together and came up with 12 to 13 lessons with Q &A and a lot of Resources and I'm we're praying and please join me in prayer For God to use that to glorify his name now in regards to our speaker tonight today.

His name is Joshua Josh wine. He is.

And.

He recently graduated from San Diego State with bioengineering and he has been working experience for 10 years working at the Creation Museum and volunteering. He also spent two years teaching high school apologetics at Christian Heritage Christian School in San Diego, which my girls attended to lots of apologetics to homeschool groups workshops college students so he has a lot of experience in what he does and his topic tonight is Humanity versus Christian Christianity.

So go ahead Josh. Thank you so much for being our guest tonight.

Defining Humanism and Its Appeal

Yeah, thank you Stacy. It's uh, yeah. It's very nostalgic to be back in this group setting because yeah I've worked at the museum for a while, which of course this group is based out of and.

And.

Yeah, no, I love you guys and It's good to be back with you. So yes topic for tonight is humanism versus Christianity. So we're gonna we're gonna be covering a lot of definitions. So if you're if you are unfamiliar with stuff if you don't feel prepared, don't worry.

We're covering everything.

My.

Presentation format is often a blitz. So yeah, I probably won't be addressing questions to the end and it's gonna be a ride lots of information this is while I do enjoy, you know, the do a lot of Historical or scientific apologetics.

This is more a philosophical Kind of apologetics tonight because I felt this was very timely. I gave this lesson that the college group at my church and Yeah, I I think that this is very relevant for today because this is I think one of the primary attacks against Christianity so Yeah, yeah, here we go medicines versus Christianity.

So we're gonna start off with what is Humanism and I thought it would be very interesting to Look at the humanists definition of humanism first. Okay, so I'm just adjusting the camera now. I want you to pay attention to these definitions and like a Yeah, they they're so glowing.

Well, we well, it's gonna do a couple of them real quick. Humanism is a progressive philosophy of life that without theism Or other supernatural beliefs affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good.

You see that's from the American Human Association free of supernaturalism and recognizes human beings are a part of nature and Holds of their values either religious ethical social or political have their source and human experience and culture or this last one, especially it's It's so interesting to me.

Humanism is the light of my life in the fire in my soul. So the deep felt conviction in every fiber of my being human love is a car far transcending the relentless onward rush. The largely deterministic cosmos all life must seek a reason for existence from the bounds of our uncaring physical world.

It's kind of a bit of a contrast there. And it is love coupled with empathy democracy and commitment to selfless service which undergirds the faith of a humanist.

Now.

How these strike me and how they should strike all of you is. I'm as believers that have substance to Substance backing such things as our morals and our hope. This is it's. It's incredible how.

Just.

How glowing these are and it's it's like this is incredible. This veneer of beauty this veneer of meaning. But but what substance that where? Why should human love be a power far transcending the relentless onward rush of the cosmos?

What. Human love is merely a chemical reaction in the brain and they're specifically defining. Okay, they're getting their values without theism or without other supernatural beliefs. So humanism basically you can think of it like.

Humanity's.

Humanity's attempt to define morality and meaning for themselves without. Yeah without theism or without any other higher power so if you have Let's say the values you get from some random witchdoctor over in the you know, third world country that that's not humanism.

Because it's attempting to get it from a higher power. It's just the wrong higher power but. This is yeah this is secular people looking to themselves to define what is right and what is meaning and. The tragedy of humanism, of course is that we know there's only one source of morality and meaning so all other attempts to find it apart from God are bankrupt and.

Yeah, you you're just. It's all you can really have is nihilism you that you don't have any any meaning really and and the relativism that's humanists often employ which is. That you just come up with your own meaning it's just merely it's optimistic nihilism, okay there's no value so I may as well come up with my own but it's.

But then it's just your opinion and you're just. It's like playing Minecraft. You just keep setting goals for yourself. But really it's Nothing to it.

Scripture’s Diagnosis of Fallen Humanity

So.

Here's some yeah. Here's the I guess the Bible's assessments of humanism as well. The fool says in his heart. There is no God. They're corrupt. They do vile deeds. There's none who does good. The Lord looks down to see if there's anyone wise anyone that seeks God and all they all have turned away.

They've all become corrupt. There's no one that does good. You can't they can they can. Anyone who thinks that they have found meaning and good apart from God there. They're deluding themselves according to the Bible.

All of us have become like something unclean our righteous acts like a polluted garment. For I know that and then this last one the Apostle Paul himself know that he was so good wasn't he? But he said that nothing good lives in him that is in his flesh.

Nothing, nothing of his natural self was good. Nothing of his self apart from God. Because he can he can desire what is good, but he doesn't have the ability to do it. There's that's it's the bankruptcy of fallen man trying to find goodness and meaning apart from God.

Now it's just think some of the humanists themselves are recognizing this. Yeah, this philosopher saying that we need to begin with a noble why so he isn't he he clearly hasn't been attending. There's apologetics group because he thinks that the Bible's been debunked but because of that he's like, oh well that he sees the the need for Something like the Bible and God to give moral foundation and meaning to people's lives.

So what are you gonna do? Well, you gotta come up with a lie a noble lie something that people can feed themselves. Now that they can no longer believe in God and the Bible that will that will keep them good and keep them Hopeful and trying to strive towards some meaning.

And yeah, he's Good luck finding that good luck. Really deluding yourself and having it work. So yeah, even atheists recognize the moral bankruptcy of humanism. Now, oh I should have not revealed the answer so fast.

Well, okay. This isn't interactive. All right answer. Here we go. There's a famous physical example of someone trying to find meaning apart from God and that's Solomon. Solomon was my I see Solomon as a classic biblical humanist.

Not how he started out. He started out. Well, but he drifted away from God and you read Ecclesiastes and yeah, he's. He's talking about life under the Sun everything under the Sun which is just the natural world because of course God's above the Sun, you know, so If you just look at the natural just look at on earth.

You you have Ecclesiastes and that's that is humanism trying to find the meaning down here alone about any Anything from God, which yeah, he turned away from God. That's all he had left was stuff down here.

So Here's his here's his glowing assessment. The wisest man ever lived of humanism I've seen all the things are done under the Sun and found it to be futile pursuit of the wind and Yeah life reasoning rally that consists only of things under the Sun are empty and meaningless.

Even the pursuit of wisdom apart from God Solomon says is striving after the wind. So yeah, they're humanisms, it's doomed attempts to find morality meaning and Actually, and this is not done here. I I thought was very important to add that it's actually Humanism can be much more satanic than even many false religions because not that it makes people most follow Satan which as we know cults and false religions have people follow demons and Satan, but Humanism is more satanic and then it makes people more like Satan.

That it makes people think like Satan because Satan elevated himself and he wanted to. He wanted to define things himself he wanted to. He thought he could be his own master and the source of Meaning and destiny for himself.

So I just thought I'd throw that out there now addressing the the Christians response to.

Christian Responses to Humanist Critiques

The.

Yeah, I guess the allure is the how good these humanistic ideologies can look and the criticisms that come from these ideologies aimed at Christianity, so don't don't these have valid criticisms of the church?

We're oh, yes, by the way, the humanisms are looking at our popular ones right now, which are communism socialism and social justice and critical race theory now. This isn't going to be political though, this is just a worldview analysis and the claim the worldview claims of these different Ideologies, so I'm not so don't let the don't let that turn you off.

I'm not going to get political but those ideologies Communism socialism critical race theory and social justice don't they have valid criticisms of the church and these ideas seeking to do good. Well, we have this caution from Colossians Be careful that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit based on human tradition.

Based on the elements of the world rather than on Christ. It remember it's the Saints. They're going to judge the world not the other way around. And it's the light of the world and the salt of the earth.

We should we should be setting the standard of morality and justice now.

These.

There may be some valid criticisms like the world they ought to see us marked by love for one another and if we're not doing That then we're not not really Following the Bible as we claim and we should yeah, we should be caring for the oppressed like like these ideologies also insist but the Bible is but we should remember the Bible is a source of morality meaning life and We can't We can't give up the Standing on that authority even if even if there are valid criticisms coming towards Christianity these criticisms of Christianity it's a you know people saying that though you were you were not loving enough We're not you're not really looking out for the interests of the poor or the oppressed.

Well.

Those criticisms they shouldn't point us towards humanism because we know humanism is a bankrupt. They should point us back towards the Bible and if we're actually following Bible, then we will be doing those things.

But yeah, we it is a it is an error is a mistake to.

Take.

To respond to those criticisms from Humanism and then go to humanism because we know that's that's bankrupt. Sure. Everyone can be a critic but I'm just think you have food just now like everyone can be a critic but not everyone can cook.

You know, we we've got we've got the goods on our side and. Yeah, we should. Chris these are. Criticism should point us back to the Bible. What's back to God all that to say. So we're gonna be so yeah communism socialism critical race theory.

Need someone up real quick. There are humanistic ideologies. Like we just went over trying to find morality meaning apart from God in his Word. These there's nothing new in these they're. They're not novel ideas nothing new under the Sun.

Humanism has been around since Garden of Eden when Adam and Eve first took the fruit. They bear many similarities. I am not sure why they're they have such commonalities and then it could be from their common origin in Marx because Well Marx was inspired by socialism and critical race theory is inspired by Marx so he could be the common thread and all of them or it could just be that it's just because they're Products of humanism and they they're similar because they're made similar by them.

Now, why should we concern ourselves with these ideologies?

Well.

While they are economic political and social theories They make claims in many key theological areas in many areas that touch deep on the human soul. So claims like value rights morality.

Sin.

Consequences for grace and salvation and purpose for human beings and there's that one and these ideologies are becoming very popular all not just in the culture and as well as in the church itself and we need to as people that Must live our lives guided by the truth of God's Word.

We we need to know what else is on the market and how to respond to it, especially since Well, there's that well first Peter 315 that we should always be prepared to give a defense for the hope that's within us.

So even for that alone like we need to be able to Defend what we believe against these these increasingly popular competitors. And we we want to be shaped by the word rather than by the world so we want to Do that and we want to know What do these say and see if we're if we're being influenced by these humanistic ideas?

Rather than by the Word of God. Yeah, we don't want to be carried around by every wind of doctrine by the trickiness and craftiness of men.

Communism, Socialism, and Class Conflict

Now.

This is I.

Want to give a very balanced approach to these ideologies now. So I've been I've been contrasting them a lot with Christianity just in how I've been phrasing things. But but this is going to be this is going to be comparing contrast.

We're going to see how much overlap there is and whether or not we there are ideas from these that we can accept a quick summary of each of these three main ideology. Social justice. You may be wondering where that went it's kind of found in all of them and it's very vaguely defined.

If you try to look it up on the interwebs is somewhat dissatisfying so it's. Think of it like it's it's the humanism justice. It's people defining justice apart from God and We'll see how good they do over the course of this but that's part of all of all three of these.

So.

Yeah.

Jump in so communism. It's been around for a while but Marx popularized in 1847 it comes from communists. Which is yeah over by the community. It's a political theory. This is your Oxford language definition.

Political theory derived from Karl Marx advocating class war and leading to a society in which all properties publicly owned. Each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs. Sounds interesting, okay.

And socialism. That's a political economic theory advocating them to the means of production distribution exchange. Should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole. So kind of kind of similar.

It's very similar to communism. From that in so sheer mean to combine a share and. Yeah, why it's so similar. Well. Socialism is it will. Marx and Lenin themselves considered socialism just to the kind of the initial stages of communism.

So you haven't you haven't abolished private property yet, but you're but you're sharing everything. While so critical race theory while it was officially organized in 1989 it goes back to 60s and 70s and.

The.

Critical legal studies movement. Concerned an offshoot. Well, yeah according to the Britannica encyclopedia. Concerned an offshoot of Marxist oriented critical theory. So yeah, it's it's based on that.

And if anyone thinks it isn't so you can point to them to the encyclopedia Britannica. The core idea of racism is Is that racism is a social construct and not merely a product of individual bias prejudice.

So that's a kind of self-definition of that there with instruction to those.

So.

These humanisms they I've kind of summed them up together because like I like I mentioned earlier there They make very similar claims in a lot of these areas on on rights meaning Values stuff like that.

So we can we can just kind of sum them all up tidily on the left and can contrast it to Christian their right.

So.

Communism socialism Socialism both use the state to substitute God as a source of rights meaning and physical provision.

Now.

Bible on the other hand God is a sole authority to determine rights and meaning and he's also ultimately the source of physical provision. You can Drop this down. It goes up later if you'd like or watch the recording later and find again.

However, you want to get up these verses you don't have time to read them all. Communism socialism drop mankind in socio-economic classes and thrives in class envy if you don't have. And that was you know, come back to our previous slide that Gets advocates class war that kind of the have the machine to drive things if you you can't be revolutionizing your society if people are content with the way things are and.

Yeah, and he is the the motivator of choice to get the revolution going. But oh, but we're not supposed to have it anything that belongs to your neighbor. This is where and I want to make a tangent right here.

When looking this up that there's there's a lot of ideas of it's it's easy to pick up ideas from the culture around you and. One one such idea here that I realized that I had just accepted was that but found that it's actually from it's actually humanistic idea is.

That.

Income inequality is inherently bad, which it it could be bad. But it also could not be. Like what if you had two people that were making that's had different amounts of stuff. But they were both happy with it then it actually wouldn't be bad in that case, but.

But we're we're trained by the culture around us. That's that's one such thing. I believe that. Oh income inequality. That's bad. But is it though it could be but it also could not be.

So I'm just.

This is so this is meant to as like a Yeah, a check to see how much of the ideas were picking up from these humanistic philosophies and how much are actually a Bible base. Anyway, I digress. The other one is one of the basic tenets of critical race through identity depends on an intersection of different social categories.

And such as race class and gender, but oh there is but according to the Bible and how God sees us. Therefore there is neither Jew nor Greek not race. There's I have neither slave nor free man. The class there's neither male nor female no gender for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

God doesn't. We're not he doesn't define us by our classes. He defines us as individuals and and the identity that really matters to him is whether or not we're in Christ and that I think that's that's evidence the.

The the sole significance of that identity is evidenced by how Christians from around the world can can bond even if they don't even speak the same language even if they they they look nothing like have become entirely dissimilar backgrounds and Yet we share this common bond in Christ.

That's how it ought to be is.

Then that's.

That's all that defines us is Christ. So. Yeah, I mean the other stuff is it's cool God made that too but it's not it's not nearly so meaningful as As our identity in Christ and how how God sees us. Okay, so contrasting principles of humanism versus principles of Christianity.

Social Justice, Identity, and the Human Person

So this is all.

This is all humanism right here. So one way humanistic governments often to value people because you don't have the Bible's what you're going to do now. So they often value people by their contribution to the state.

That's just that's just pragmatism. You know what? Yeah, what are you going to go off of there the production is a productivity is a I mean. It's a good metric. I guess if you don't have anything else to work with.

But the unborn the elderly and the handicapped don't contribute nearly as much as everyone else. So they're valued less. Since everything you have came to you from the state. Marxism and socialism abolish all rights of inheritance a Powerful humanist the government will always compete with God for authority over his people.

So churches are a threat. That's why Communism more more martyrs have died under communism than under any other. Any other ideological system and then that includes Islam. Which Islam has has had a crack at making martyrs of Christians for hundreds of years longer than communism, but then and other humanisms, but that communism is it's.

Yeah, that's killed the most Christians. Most Christians have died under communism. So anyway, the marks himself. The first requisite for happiness of people is the abolition of religion. So you guys Have against religion, but you you'll naturally if you're trying to find life and meaning for yourself apart from God you're not you're gonna compete with people trying to get those things from God because they'll be defining things differently and it's just gonna it's.

Yeah, you're gonna drag your society back you won't be able to have society the way you wanted. There you got all these people flying a different flag marching to a different drum. Can't have that. Oh Marks of this.

Yeah, the this quote he doesn't really paint himself as um, this is a nice humanitarian. My object in life is to dethrone God and destroy capitalism. Okay, at least he was very clear. We make war against all prevailing ideas of religion of the state of country of patriotism.

The idea of God is a keynote of a perverted civilization. There must be destroyed. That's nice. Thanks marks. And one note I want to make quick on an example of that first point here the What happens when you have.

A.

Humanistic society a society apart from God to try to try to value place value on people and. My great-grandparents have had many friends that well nations in them, but I've had a few friends that Have been euthanized against their will.

Euthanasia is. Even where it's illegal it it is a problem. In European countries first world countries. When an example I'm thinking of right now is Germany. I think it was in Germany. That's my great-grandma's friend was.

Yeah, she was euthanized against her will and my great-grandma was told that so she had just she had passed last night. Right after you saw her. So yeah, kind of scary, but oh.

I.

Realized that Time may become an issue. So Stacey just turn your camera and wave wildly at me if that happens. Oh, yes, Robin. Belgium does that too? Yeah in first world countries and are doing that so it's crazy.

But that but we don't have God people drift a far away. It's it's incredible how how it happens how society's drift and you don't have that anchor on God's Word.

Now.

This is a big quote. I'm gonna ask it but but you'll find this very interesting. I think the communism attributes alternate value to the state. And so this is a Someone's assessment of communism. I'm trying to guess who it is without looking ahead.

At it.

So.

Man is made from the state from that state for men. Well, sorry, not the state for men. Man has no inalienable rights. His rights are derived from the state. His liberties of press and assembly are restricted by the state stream to vote for him to listen read man Must be the dutiful servant of the omnipotent state.

All this to the contrary. Not only is a Christian doctrine of God, but also the Christian lesson of man. Christianity insists that man is an end in himself because he's a child of God made in God's image.

Man is More than an animal a producing animal guided by economic forces. He's a being of spirit crowned of glory and honor and out of the gift of freedom. The ultimate weakness of communism is that Rob's man of that equality for that quality, which makes a man.

He's stripped of conscience and reason. In spite of going talk about the welfare of the masses. Communism's methods and philosophy stripped man of his dignity. And worth leaving him as little more than a deep personalized car the ever-turning wheel of the state from Martin Luther King jr.

The Social justice person and This was his assessment of communism, isn't that interesting? But he. But he was calling out how? Yeah, how he saw it. He that it is. It it can't deliver what it promises what people think that and that it's going to because it's it's apart from God it it ultimately Reduces humans and Robbed some of meaning and morality.

Isn't this an interesting quote down here to Christian love which applies to all even to one's enemies is the worst adversary of communism that comes from the general secretary of the executive committee of communist international.

It's not interesting. So he seems he himself seems to think that There's something about Christianity that is Antagonistic to communism.

Excuse me.

So.

I was a little bit of attention, but I thought it was worth going into Martin Luther's assessments of Communism there. So principles of humanism versus principles of Christianity and this is we're going on social justice now.

Humanism, Social Justice, and the Need for Grace

Finally got to it. Humanisms so. This is. This is really all you can get apart from God. People are merely biological machines. Yeah, if God didn't make him then they're just products of their genetics and their environment including society.

Contrast that with Christianity while influenced by society and environment people have many things built in by the manufacturer of God and such as a moral compass. Sin nature is another thing that's tragically built in because since the fall.

But free will is another thing placed there by God, they're not just machines. It's or now a Bit of a tangent there. I hope as we're reading some of these you guys can think of modern examples. In society where these principles are playing out.

Oh.

Looks like I do explain it. Okay. All right I'll let this explain it. So the source of individuals problems of society in Under humanism, but in Christianity people well, they're free agents. And so the society's problems can be traced back to the individual.

So It's it's kind of flipped rather rather than the individual just being a part of their society. No, they people are free. They're not machines. They're not just programmed by their environment instead society is comprised of the actions of free individuals.

Yeah, you put a free individuals Social justice if you want to help or fix people you must fix the society. Young under Christianity if you want to fix society you must change people's hearts. It's flipped.

People are the product of their environment. So their class past identity must be considered injustice, but under Christianity justices and Judaism is the Old Testament, but The justice is meant to be impartial that you you just You you just consider the crime you consider what was done because ultimately people have free will and moral responsibility under humanism, no objective morality to satisfy with justice, but.

So you have to you have to maximize other things and this is what I was going to get into considering all these previous points. You can that's why you have the humanistically minded Political leaders not to get political but you but You have leaders not they want to learn to rehabilitate people or they think that if you just.

If you just show them kindness then they'll well then you're reprogramming them, right? So as if some commits a crime and you just you just let them off then they should be good now and so. Yeah, you have you have all sorts of people being a lot of prison and They're after doing very bad things.

That's they're they're working with this. So not and not to happen to get into the Justice of the justice system, but that's that explains where those where those actions come from. They're informed by these humanistic principles of social justice.

Another last thing because of the group's identity because Your identity comes from your group. Their descendants can be guilty of their ancestors actions. Whereas in Christianity the Sun will not bear the punishment of the father's iniquity.

So you're not you don't just carry on the guilt of your of your ancestors. And I'm I'm sure you guys can think of an example Reparations, I think it's the biggest one where people are insisting. That's the the Sun's do bear the iniquity of a father's which has humanistic, it's a Doesn't doesn't seem to be Christian.

Yeah, of course. These are discussions to be had. These are important things to. That we should have an answer for but we should realize. How these ideas are being informed are these is that biblical justice?

Or is that or is that some other system of justice that? That's insisting on those things. All right, so.

Sin, Victimhood, and the Gospel

Principles of humanism.

Where's Christianity now going to personal responsibility and sin? This is a big deal because I mean the whole of Christianity is trying to. Not the whole of Christianity but a really big part is trying to address the sin problem so you can have a relationship with God and I mean the rest of its relationship with God, but.

Yeah, it's a big deal. So how what's the humanistic perspective on it? All right. So I know humanism. You are a product of your environment and the things that happen to you. Okay, because you're you're just a machine after all in Christianity.

You're a part of the choices You've made from the options presented to you. So sure your environment has something to do with it, but but ultimately you are a free agent.

Now.

It in humanism. Of course, it wants to break up things in classes. So you've had the the oppressed class and the oppressor class I mean and really that's it's to. It's a very simplistic way of dividing the world because I mean.

We all like we all in in different scenarios in different situations. I've either been the oppressed or been the oppressor we just because someone is just because someone is kind of.

No.

In unfortunate circumstances and beat down doesn't mean that they can't then do the same to someone else because ultimately we are. We've we're jerks. We've got that sin nature. And so. Yeah, even even victims can victimize people.

But anyway, the grass so for the oppressor class on the humanism, you've got specific inherent irredeemable sins. But in Christianity everyone's got a sin nature and chooses to sin. And Tim and fully oppressed.

Yeah, the the evil in you is not a result of your sins, but the sins of others. But again with Christianity, we there's not that distinction being made between the oppressed and the oppressor. I mean not not before God in.

We are supposed to stand up for the oppressed in. In society, we shouldn't we should be against oppression certainly. People taking advantage of other people but but before God.

There's.

Everyone has a sin nature and chooses to sin, but Christ can cleanse us from all unrighteousness. It's not.

And.

The real danger.

Is.

Not.

When someone is the real danger for someone is not when they're deceived into thinking that they're an oppressor I mean that that's hard for them to that. They're if they're just classified as oppressor because then they're just.