July 12, 2024 Show with Dr. Carl Werner on “Evolution: The Grand Experiment”

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at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania. But today I am thrilled to have a first -time guest.

His name is Dr. Carl Werner, who graduated from the University of Missouri with distinction in biology, summa cum laude, received his doctoral degree in medicine at the age of 23, just a year older than I was when

I received my medical degree, I'm only kidding. And he is currently practicing family medicine in St.

Louis, Missouri. Today he is going to be addressing his two -volume work,

Evolution the Grand Experiment, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Shepherds Iron Radio, Carl Werner.

Thank you, Chris. It's great to be with you and your audience. It's very much of an honor to be with you.

Thank you. Well, the honor is all mine and theirs. And we have a tradition here on Iron Shepherds Iron Radio, Dr.

Werner, whenever we have a first -time guest, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony that would include any kind of religious atmosphere in which the guest was raised, and also the providential circumstances that our sovereign

Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to himself and saved them. So we would love to hear your story now.

Well, Chris, I always tell people that I came in the church through the back door, and I was raised in a very moral family with amazing great parents, but my church did not teach that the

Bible was inerrant. And yeah, and they taught about God and the

Holy Spirit, but that topic of inerrancy was never taught to me.

And in my high school years, I found myself drifting away from God.

I started to ask myself, why am I following all of these hard rules that my parents have imposed on me, these morals that my parents came up with for me?

And I just found myself in this slow drift away from God, maybe like your kids, maybe like your nieces and nephews, maybe like yourself.

And there was divine providence. I was then accepted to medical school at a young age of 17, and I started at age 18.

Yeah. Now, it really was the ordinary medical school.

It's a lot of young people that aren't like the top of their class get into this because it's a six year medical school.

It's designed to get in right out of high school. And so before that getting accepted,

I was gunning to become a doctor and I was gunning to get into medical school. So I had my own research laboratory at the

University of Missouri from age 16 to 17. For two years, I had my own animal lab.

When I think back about that, I said, that's kind of odd. I don't know any other 16 year old that has an animal lab.

But that's part of this story. It's very important that you understand that I was kind of a science nerd.

And then I got into medical school and I was four point owing. And again, that's not to brag, but it's it's part of this upcoming point about my pizza date, my providential pizza date.

And here I was, a sophomore in college, also my second year medical school.

You did them both simultaneously. And a friend, in retrospect, he was a

Christian, was probably on the hunt for a lost soul, Carl Warner.

And he asked me out for pizza. And we went up to Minsky's Pizza Parlor at 51st and Main in Kansas City, just about two blocks from our dorm.

And we talked about class. We talked about this and that. And at the end of that pizza date, you know, outing, you know, just talking with my friend, he asked me three questions over the course of about two minutes, three minutes.

And. I did a 180 and I totally my whole life changed based on these three questions.

In fact, I would suggest people write down these three questions because they are so powerful.

His three questions was, Carl, what do you think about the conundrum of the

Big Bang and the problems that the laws of physics don't follow the

Big Bang? In other words, the universe couldn't form naturally. And I was like, well, I don't know of any problems or conundrums with the

Big Bang. What are you talking about? He said, well, you know, that matter does not form from nothing.

Matter being atoms, hydrogen, helium. And he said, you know, that's true, that atoms do not form from nothingness.

That's the law of mass conservation of mass and energy. He says, how could the universe form naturally without God if atoms and matter can't form?

And see, now you understand why I explain my science background. I should have been able to answer that. I should have been able to answer that.

That should have been a simple question, a simple answer and move on. But I was silenced.

I didn't react to him and indicate to him that there was something wrong inside. But that just slammed me against the against the seat where I was sitting.

And the second question is, Carl, what do you think about the conundrum or the problems with forming life?

He says, you believe that, you know, everything came about naturally over billions of years without God necessarily being any part of it.

And that, you know, four or five billion years ago, the Earth was sterile. It just had rocks and dust.

There was no living things on it. He says, how could life begin, you know, life being a single cell bacteria, you know, like a microscopic bacteria?

How could the first form of life form since the components of every living cell on Earth, that's dog cells, that's bacteria, that's, you know, plant cells, that's human cells.

Every cell has these four components, DNA, RNA, enzymes, proteins.

And there are those four components are very large molecules or macromolecules are not like CO2 with three atoms, but there's thousands upon thousands of atoms, these

DNA, RNA, enzymes and proteins. He says, you know that the macromolecules do not form naturally under any circumstance.

So how is it possible that life could have began without God creating life?

Chris, these questions were profound, you know, and, you know, again, they're so simple.

Every human should be able to answer those simply if, you know, if creation, if evolution is true.

And yet I couldn't answer his first two questions. And his last question was, Carl, there's one more conundrum

I want to ask you about. And that is that they've collected all these fossils. And now, Chris, the number of fossils collected by museums is one billion.

Wow. That's with a yeah, a billion. It's a thousand museums roughly with a million fossils in each museums roughly.

But the number by according to evolution scientists is one billion fossils collected.

And these are not junk fossils where just you can't tell what's going on. These are whole fish. These are dinosaurs.

These are, you know, corals, sponges, bacteria, worms, everything you could ever imagine could be fossilized.

And even things you can't even imagine being fossilized, like dog poop and like jellyfish and like fish eggs that shouldn't be fossilized.

It's all there. But he said that, Carl, with all this fossil record, how can you justify that everything evolved?

Because each group of animals, groups being like corals, sponges, echinoderms, you know, arthropods, each group of animals, every group of animals just appear suddenly in the lowest layers without any intermediate ancestors.

How could that mathematically or statistically be possible to have zero intermediates when you have, say, you know, 10 million sponge fossils?

I'm telling you, Chris, I was just like pinned against the seat and the restaurant got quiet.

It didn't really, but it's just like a movie, you know, and I was like, what is going on here?

I mean, more or less, he just proved that evolution and naturalism, all of naturalism, that the universe formed naturally, that life formed naturally, that the species all came about naturally.

He more or less just in three questions and a minute and a half, more or less just proved that was all

BS. And I didn't know what to make of it, but I had enough evidence.

That. I thought, you know what, I'm kind of a rudderless ship, I was basically miserable, even though I had everything and had all the freedoms

I wanted, I was miserable. I should have been the happiest guy, but I was the most miserable person.

And I made the kind of intellectual decision without having any other evidences that there is a

God. He'd have to be the only explanation for those three questions. And I don't know what to do with all the other questions

I have, you know, dinosaurs, millions of years, billions of years, all these things. But I'm going to I'm going to become a

Christian. And that was a I don't know if you wanted this long of an answer,

Chris. Oh, yeah. Feel free. Feel free. In fact, if you could just remind me before you continue who it was that was evangelizing you and giving you these challenging questions.

He was my classmate in medical school. We were in biochemistry that semester. And so, you know, he was my peer, you know, and yeah.

And he was a Christian. And yeah. So over the next six months, that was probably the most difficult decision

I ever, ever, ever came to grips with, because intellectually,

I thought I need to become a Christian. But my flesh or whatever you call your soul or your feelings said, no way,

Jose, because I know as soon as I do, God's going to send me off to be some missionary in Timbuktu.

And or or I thought worse than Timbuktu, he's going to send me to New Delhi to be burying dead poor people with Mother Teresa.

I mean, that would be, you know, I'm thinking if because I was going to either be all in or are no end, you know, and I'm all in.

And I was like, OK, I'm going to totally trust him. Then if the next morning I wake up, he says, go to New Delhi because, well,

God's not that mean. But, you know, that's what I thought it was going to be. And so it took me the longest, hardest six months of my life, just pounding my soul, you know, just like I can't do this, but I need to do it.

I want to do it. I hate doing this. I'm not going to do it. You know, whatever. And finally, you know, I guess what you call that grace, you know,

I said, OK, fine, I'm just going to do it. And I made that decision. And I just want to tell you one other piece of background.

You know, I lived on the campus at the University of Missouri, Kansas City at the time in the dorm.

And every morning you walk to class and you pass, you know, four hundred students walking to their classes.

And after I made that decision, several times people came, stop me.

I'm saying total strangers. I don't even know who these people are. And they'd say, excuse me, you know,

I see you every morning. I see you're always smiling. Why are you so happy? And I didn't have my answer ready.

I wish now I had my answer ready, but I just had the weight of the world lifted off my shoulders.

And I said I didn't know I was happy, you know, but there you go.

So that's how I became a Christian. But then my whole life then just opened up as like I have no idea how you would logically explain all the fossils, you know, all the years, all the layers, all this, all that.

There's no way you could ever explain that. So I started working then on what became known as my grand experiment.

And, you know, for the 18 years I read about evolution and creation and geology and biochemistry.

And then for the last 30 years, so it's really 48 years, I'm 65 years old now.

The last 30 years, we've filmed a television series on naturalism, evolution, eight men, you know, and answered all my questions.

Well, praise God. And I'm assuming since your two volume work,

Evolution, the Grand Experiment, is published by New Leaf Publishers, I'm assuming that you are a young Earth creationist.

Well, you guessed right. I am a young Earth creationist. And that was part of this last 30 years because I didn't know

I could no more have defended that idea other than saying I believe. But you know what?

I just got to be honest with you. I told you I came in the church through the back door because, you know,

I came in through a science discussion, not, you know, altar call. And then it just took me 30 years to put the evidences together where I had this coherent proof that the

Earth could just as be young, hundreds, thousands of thousands of years old than millions of years old.

There's enough proof that it would be thousands as there would be proof that it's millions or billions.

So, yes, I did. But to be honest with you, I'm the doubting Thomas of all doubting

Thomas. You know, there's this show called The Chosen and Doubting Thomas is on there. He's always doubting this and that.

But, you know, I put him to shame because I just like I don't believe anybody.

I have to see the proof. I have to put my fingers in Jesus' side like Thomas did. I have to see this evidence how this could ever possibly work out.

I just I'm not going to believe it unless you can show it to me. And of course, doubting

Thomas's have to pay for that with their blood because, you know, I poured myself out on the sidewalk, so to speak,

OK, because you're so hardheaded and you won't believe just because you're supposed to believe. Now you've got to go out and travel the world, you know, go to 300, go to six continents and travel 300000 miles, go 16 countries, interview 100 scientists just to get your your curiosity fixed.

But I just I couldn't do it. I have to be all in. It has to all make sense. And it once it once I got all the answers, it just like the light bulb went on.

Praise God. Well, we have to go to our first commercial break. And when we come back, we will have you give an overview of your first volume,

Evolution, The Grand Experiment. And then in the second part of the program, we'll move on to Living Fossils, which is volume number two of The Grand Experiment.

And if anybody has a question of your own, our email address is Chris Arnzen at Gmail dot com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at Gmail dot com. As always, give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you are an evolutionist and you are beginning to doubt this theory and you don't want to publicly identify yourself at this stage in the game.

Things like that. We understand why you might want to remain anonymous. But please, if it's a general question, give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence.

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So go to royaldiadem .com today and mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We are now back with Dr.

Carl Werner and he is no ordinary family practitioner as a physician.

He is also a young earth creationist and the author of a two volume work,

Evolution The Grand Experiment, and we are delighted to have him on the program today.

If you have any questions of your own for Dr. Werner, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name, at least city and state and country residence. And I will give you his website as well right away in the event that I forget to do it later.

Thegrandexperiment .com is his website. Thegrandexperiment .com. Now, if you could please explain that title.

Some people, as I think somebody who saw the promotion for our interview today,

I think somebody wrongly thought that your subtitle, The Grand Experiment, was a promotion of Darwinian evolution.

And they got upset. I had to explain to them that that was not the case. So please explain evolution, the grand experiment to us.

Well, thank you. You know, it is a crossover title. I didn't want to make the title

Jesus Christ created the earth in six days because I felt like I would lose audience.

And so it's a crossover title. And it's a book about whether evolution is true or not.

And it is based on what turned out to be my grand experiment where I visited dig sites, visited universities, visited museums, went to the scientists all over the world, 104 scientists, and firsthand examined the evidence for or against evolution.

And so, yeah, it's not a pro evolution book. In fact, a lot of the homeschool kids, they thought the same thing.

You know, it's such a haughty, tauty title, Evolution, The Grand Experiment. But as soon as they start reading, they realize, oh, my gosh, all the information here really goes best with the theory that God created us.

And it really does not line up with evolution. So that's how the title came about.

And actually, it was suggested, the title was suggested by, I don't know if you remember that show

Touched by an Angel. Yeah. Yeah. And one of their writers was one of the writers for our pre -piece on the video series.

It's a six part, it's an eight part video series. And so, you know, he was a very creative guy and he said, well, this is what the title of the series should be, because you're basically going doing this grand experiment, going all over and doing the hard stuff, you know, traveling and interviewing and camera work and all that.

And so he was the one that suggested, well, if you think it's good, I don't know how people react, so I'll go with it.

OK, well, we already have some listeners who have begun submitting questions and we have, first of all,

Randolph, who is located in West Hampton, Long Island, New York. And Randolph says, early on, as you were studying through this new world of creationism, were you confronted by Christians who were old earth creationists who were trying to dissuade you as you began to lean more and more towards young earth creationism?

To be honest, Randolph, I was not confronted. I was just trying to answer the simple question, did evolution occur?

So, you know, early on, I would say for the first 20 years of my grand experiment,

I was just trying to see if evolution was true or not. I wasn't going into the other rabbit holes of the age of the earth and things like that.

Eventually that all fit in. But no, I was not confronted.

But the people who believe in old earth creation don't have really all the information.

And once they get the information, generally, it's pretty easy to understand why it's more logical to believe in a young earth universe than an old earth universe.

But that's that might be a story for another day. But, yeah. Yeah, well, the obviously the old earthers have a tendency toward snobbery.

And I'm not laying that accusation against all old earthers.

I have very close friends who are old earthers, happen to disagree with them, but we remain friends.

But there is this idea that even from brothers in Christ who are in the science, the scientific arena, who view the young earth

Christians as being not well informed, they will say that especially when it comes to the field of geology, that the young earth creation wing of creationism is nearly barren of accredited geologists who hold the young earth position.

And on and on we could go. I've even been accused by at least one young earth creation.

I'm sorry, old earth creationist in my audience. Whenever I have a young earther such as yourself,

I've been accused of causing young people to leave the faith because they view us as a bunch of morons since we hold to what they would call an unscientific point of view.

I don't know if you've ever heard those kind of accusations, but if you ever do hear an accusation like that, how would you respond?

Could I have 12 minutes? Yes. Do this in 12 minutes. Sure. Because I'd like to just to help everybody in the audience who believes in the old earth and just show you one step after another why none of it works.

You can do that. OK, so first of all, there's two ideas, Ying and Yang.

Ying says the universe is 13 billion years old. That's a B. And Yang says the universe was created less than 10 ,000 years.

So it's like so different. You know, it should be easy to differentiate. Was it less than 10 ,000 years old for the universe or is it 13 billion?

So that's the argument. And so the people who use and throw around the word billions are referring to that when scientists look at stars with the telescopes, there's a red shift.

There's a slightly red hue to the stars because stars are moving away.

And they concluded that the reason stars were moving away from the earth was because there was a

Big Bang. And any person that's using this billions of years is using the idea that the

Big Bang started the universe. But the Big Bang actually doesn't work.

And it's actually been disproven. And I'd like just to start. That's just point one.

But I have to take down the Big Bang. So the Big Bang assumes that the universe formed naturally without the intervention of God through atoms, hydrogen, helium interacting with each other, bumping into each other.

And the different steps on that would be, number one, you have to create the atoms from nothingness naturally.

And that's impossible. That's what my friend pointed out. Atoms, which is matter, hydrogen, helium, atoms do not form from nothingness in any circumstance because there is a physics law that says they call the conservation of mass and energy of matter does not form from nothingness.

So the first problem with the Big Bang is you can't form matter naturally. The second one is the

Big Bang says that all of the planets and stars of the universe, that's trillions and trillions and trillions, all the size of the

Earth or bigger, were scrunched down into a dot smaller than a pinhead before they banged.

Now, I don't know about you, but I find that very hard to believe. How could you even crush the

Earth into a dot smaller than a pinhead? That just doesn't make sense. There's just not enough room.

But not just the Earth, but all of the stars? That seems crazy. Now, that's just a logical person, a doubting

Thomas saying that. But the evolution physicists who believe in naturalism will tell you that the physics does not allow you to crunch all the matter into a dot.

And if you want a resource for that, that would be the Nova television show called Elegant Universe, where he says, no, if you try to crunch all the atoms into a dot, then the laws of physics break down.

So now the Big Bang is zero for two. It can't create matter.

It can't crunch matter. And the third point of the Big Bang is that this small dot apparently was supposed to have exploded in this massive explosion.

And all of the matter went out like the spokes on a wheel, just going out in all directions.

OK, and every second, each particle was further and further away from all other particles, making them harder and harder to have gravitational pull on each other.

Well, the question is, is could a disorderly explosion form a ordered universe with spiral galaxies?

Because that's going from disorder explosion to a semi -ordered universe with, you know, you look at the

Milky Way, just our little solar system, the Earth and the sun and all that, you know, it has these beautiful patterns of where the stars are going and where the planets are going.

And you can predict where any star is. It's all fairly organized. It's just not like an explosion.

And that's also a violation of physics, that you can't go from disorder to order, because atoms are smacking each other all the time and they're bouncing off.

So it's supposed to go to disorder. So if the Big Bang doesn't work, and if you get somebody that's very smart and very honest, they will tell you it doesn't work.

Well, my point in all this is if the Big Bang doesn't work, then you can't say that the universe is billions of years old.

You're assuming that the red shift is from this explosion, but it violates physics law after physics law after physics law.

And so take away the billions of arguments. So that's the first problem with old

Earth. Now, the old Earth creationists and the evolutionists would argue this.

They would say, look, look up at the stars. And you see that star so far out there with a really good telescope, we can see it.

And they would say the light traveling at whatever it is, 186 ,000 miles per second or whatever, the light coming from that star would have taken, you know, like two million years to get here.

So how could the Earth be 10 ,000 years old or less when the star that we look up at the sky, that light that took millions of years to get there?

Do you follow that argument, Chris? I just want to make sure I'm making myself clear. OK, so here is the problem with that argument.

And just imagine you could vicariously go to the Garden of Eden and it was the seventh day.

It was on the first rest. You know, God had just made man. He just made the plants and the animals.

And just think of yourself as you're just being planted there. No one can see you, but you can see everything.

You see this naked man. You see this naked woman. They don't seem to be bothered by their nakedness. And by the way, don't lust over them.

And you see these, you know, oak trees and you see, you know, the age of the man.

And if I asked you, OK, you know nothing. How old is the Earth? Well, you would say, well, looking at that man, he looks like he's 21 years old.

And that woman, she could be 21. So the Earth has to be at least 21 years old. But see, that was a parent age, but that's not the real age.

Their real age is only one day old, right? Or two days old, whatever day they were made in creation, six or whatever, five.

But if you looked up at the tree next to Adam and Eve in this,

I'm just doing a scenario here. If you looked, if you were there and you looked up at the tree and you see this sequoia tree next to them and the sequoia tree is like 14 feet around.

And it's, you know, 130 feet up in the air. And you'd say, well, and I ask you again, well, how old is the

Earth? What's the minimum age it could be? Well, it'd have to be at least 130 years because look at that tree, right?

And that would be logical, just like the evolution scientists, their thought processes are logical.

But it's not the right answer because the tree is only three days old, even though it's a big sequoia because God didn't make, when he made the garden, he just didn't put seeds of humans and seeds of plants in it.

And there was nothing you could see it. It was full, everything according to the story that we read.

So nighttime comes on your visit to the Garden of Eden and you're still being asked by me,

I'm asking you, how old is the Earth? And you look up at the stars and you say, well, the stars,

I see the light. Look how many stars, there's millions of stars. There's no smoke. I can see all these stars. The Earth would have to be millions and millions of years old because you would say there light travels at 186 ,000 miles per second.

It would take millions of years to light to get here. That would be logical, but it's the wrong answer because really those stars are only six days old.

And I always say this kind of tongue in cheek, so bear with me because my wife says I'm not very funny at all.

But I always say that there was this discussion between God, the

Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. And they had this big, long meeting before Jesus started creating.

And the discussion was, should I let the light come to the

Earth from the stars naturally or should I just make them be visible on the first day?

And Jesus said to his Father, he said, either way,

I'm going to be accused of being a liar and a thief because if I put the light there, it's going to look like the

Earth or the universe is billions of years old. But I told him, you're only a week old.

But if I don't put the light there, they're going to accuse me, they being humans who have a bad heart, humans are going to accuse me of being stupid.

And I'm the creator. Why would they say you're going to be stupid, Jesus, because you're creating stars without light?

It's because I just made this universe with all these stars and I have these Adam and Eve in this

Garden of Eden. It's seven days old. But no one will ever see 99 .99999

% of the stars that I put in the sky because it would take too long for the light to get here.

So forget the human logic. I'm just going to put the stars out there and I let them enjoy them the first day of creation, of human creation.

So I get why by laws of physics, it would be logical that the

Earth is billions of years old. But you have to also look beyond this is that there is no

Big Bang. There is no way to create the universe. So that's the billions. And I hope

I've addressed that sufficiently for the doubting Thomases, because believe me, I love these questions because I'm more doubtful than you are, because I've had to go through all these questions now for the millions of years.

That's a different question. And that's what they're talking about, geology. OK, so if you go to the

Grand Canyon today, Chris, and stand on the edge of the South Rim, OK, and you look down,

I think it's a mile down there to the Colorado River, whatever, you see all those layers and you would see layer on top of layer on top of layer on top of layer.

And your logical brain, which is sometimes will mislead you, your logical brain would say, gosh, the

Earth has to be millions of years old because look how many layers there are and how long it would have taken to accumulate them.

And so the Earth is millions of years old. It's, you know, 4 .5 billion.

But the plants and animals have been only around for 600 million years old. But see, that's also a false argument.

This one, this argument that I just laid out by standing on the edge of the Grand Canyon is false because I left out the most important information and the most important information.

I don't think anybody in your audience has this. So you're going to have to put on your thinking cap because this is a radio program and I'm going to have to describe this to you.

But all over the world, there are rock layers just like the Grand Canyon.

OK, and by the way, the creationists would say that all the layers of the Grand Canyon were laid down in a

Noah's flood in a short period of time. The evolution would say that those layers were laid down over, you know, hundreds of millions of years old, maybe 4 billion years old.

But it's long, long time. So it's, again, a disparity. The reason the layers can't possibly be laid down over millions of years, there's three reasons.

Number one, there are places in those layers where you would have a vertical tree, like a tree trunk, like it's about, we'll say, 25 feet vertical.

OK, it's just a trunk. And it's going through three layers.

You know, the bottom of the trunk is in the first layer and then go up halfway up the trunk.

There's a middle layer and you go up further up the trunk. There is the top layer. So those three layers, how long would they have taken?

So if the if if those layers are laid down over millions of years each, that means that that tree would have had to start start by living.

And then the layers came around as slowly over millions of years. But Chris, what tree can stand for more than a thousand years or a hundred years?

But really, certainly no tree stands for more than 20 ,000 years. Well, how could these layers slowly form, starting at the base, working their way up over 30 million years while that tree is trying to stay vertical?

The tree is going to rot. It's going to die. It's going to rot. It's going to fall over. There's no way those layers could be laid down over millions of years.

It had to be quickly. And really what happened is those trees were in Noah's flood.

They were floating as a log mat on the top of the water. They got waterlogged.

And some trees, when they get waterlogged, will go down to the to the bottom, like horizontal, like you see at Petrified Forest out in Arizona.

But some trees, when they sink and they get waterlogged, they go down vertical.

And so the vertical ones sit at the bottom of the water column onto the lowest sediment layer from the flood.

And as the waves of sediment come over them, maybe 30, 40 feet above the tree, the sediment comes down quickly and puts down different layers as each sediment is brought in from a different direction.

And so that is the simplest proof that these layers aren't millions of years old.

And I have seen these trees. They're amazing. And you start thinking about it. This is a conundrum.

There's no way that these trees could have been laid down over millions of years. Now, there's several other reasons, but I think

I would be sounding like a drone. So I'm just going to stop there. If you want me to keep going, I will. Well, you can keep going after we go to our midway break, which we have to enter into now.

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Welcome back, and before I return to Dr. Carl Werner and our discussion of his two -volume book,

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Send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to our guest,

Dr. Carl Werner, who is the author of the two -volume work,

Evolution, the Grand Experiment, and he also hosts the website, thegrandexperiment .com,

and we would love to hear from you with your questions. In fact, we do have a listener in Nicholasville, Kentucky.

Tori in Nicholasville, Kentucky, wants to know, have you lost any patience as a result of them hearing about the fact that you are a young Earth creationist and they might falsely presume that that makes you a less credible doctor?

Well, thank you, Chris and Tori, for your question. I just want to update the biographical information.

I retired in, I think it's right at the beginning of COVID because I have type 1 diabetes.

Oh, okay. And although I trained to be an emergency room physician, I actually have a double board certification and also emergency room and the family physician.

So I actually worked as an emergency room physician for 40 years, and I retired, like whatever that is, four years ago.

But no, when people came to me, they didn't ask any questions.

They said, can you just dislodge this piece of meat that's stuck in my esophagus? No, I'm serious.

It never came up because, you know, I was there to help them out with their emergencies, which was a lot of fun.

I love that job. But no, it never, you know, people don't pick on me and they don't pick on the well -read scientists because they know it's going to be, they're going to get an answer.

They pick on the least prepared person, like a Christian who doesn't have any reading on this topic, and they'll pick on you all day long, but they never pick on me because they know

I have these answers ready and they're going to get, you know, walloped. So yeah, no,

I don't get any difficulties when I worked in emergency room. Now, as you are fully aware, being a published author through New Leaf Publishing Group and Master Books, they have an exhaustive list of young earth creationist books available at NLPG .com,

which is their website. And I urge everybody listening to explore that wonderful website at New Leaf Publishing Group's website,

NLPG .com. What was it that compelled you, that led you to the strong opinion, hey, in spite of all these books that are available, there's something that I think

I need to add to these many volumes already in print that maybe come from a little bit of different perspective or that have information that nobody seems to be documenting in their already published works.

What was that that compelled you to add your volumes to this long list that we already have available to the body of Christ?

Yeah, that's a great question. And there was a lot of unanswered questions.

And, for example, my book one simply looked at the fossil record.

Did evolution occur in the fossil record? Now, everyone will say there's no transitional fossils, that's a creationist, but no one had collected the number of fossils in each of these animals and showed that there was no transition.

And it doesn't make sense. For example, we photographed, you know, many, many fossil bats.

There's a thousand fossil bats out there. And evolution scientists think that the bats came from a tree shrew, which is like about a mouse, you know, and with the number of fossil bats, you would think that you would find intermediate animals.

And there are no intermediate animals between a tree shrew and a bat. And it's the great number of fossils that makes the argument watertight.

Same with dinosaurs. There's 100 ,000 dinosaurs have been collected.

Now, 3 ,000 of those are kind of skeletons or partial skeletons, 100 ,000, mostly those are single bones, but 100 ,000 different dinosaurs have been collected.

And according to the evolution scientists that we interviewed, the evolution dinosaur experts, that there is no evolutionary ancestors to any dinosaur species.

And it was those kind of, you know, answers that solidified my set of evidences that evolution didn't occur.

Now, the second book which was necessary to write was called

Living Fossils. And here was my Doubting Thomas question.

And here it is. It's like if you go into a museum today and you go to the dinosaur, you know, exhibition, you see the dinosaurs and you might see the flying reptiles, pterosaurs, but you don't see a dinosaur with a duck or a boa constrictor or any modern animals.

And that bothered me. It's like, how could you have different animals living during the time of the dinosaurs?

And then today we have a completely different set of animals. Like back then they would say they had dinosaurs and pterosaurs and mosasaurs, but today we have ducks and loons and boa constrictors and hedgehogs.

And my sciency background would say there has to be modern animals next to the dinosaurs in the dinosaur dig sites.

And so, oh my gosh, Debbie and I have traveled to all these dinosaur dig sites. Excuse me,

Chris. And we'd always ask him, did you find any modern animals next to the dinosaurs?

And the first round of those questions, the first 10 years, they always said no.

But then we realized we could ask the question differently and realized that yes, modern animals have been found next to the dinosaurs.

And the evolution scientists told us that ducks were found next to the dinosaurs, possums, hedgehogs, loons, avocets, penguins, flamingos.

You know, basically every animal group is represented. Not the big mammals haven't been found next to the dinosaurs, but you find all of these animals next to the dinosaurs that you would say that's, you know, that's a box turtle.

The problem is, is the evolution scientists kept this from the public and they continue to falsely keep this from the public by their displays.

They don't put a duck on the back of a T -Rex, but they should because a duck has been found in the T -Rex lair.

And they don't put a boa constrictor around the leg of a Triceratops.

They should because, you know, boa constrictors have been found in the Triceratops rock layers. So they create the illusion of evolution by leaving out the modern animals in the dinosaur displays at the museums.

So that was another, you know, fresh piece of information that the creation world needed to figure out.

Yeah. Now, when I was a little kid, I was probably in second grade.

I went to, for the first time, the Museum of Natural History in New York City.

And I remember seeing what I thought as a kid were transitional skulls from ape to human on display there.

But that is a fictitious display, is it not? Where these sculptors took fragments of bone here and there, and they created an entire skull replica from what they believed the skull would look like from a fragment here and there.

Am I making sense here? Oh, that's spot on. It's completely accurate.

And I didn't tell you yet, but this year we have big news. We just released a two -volume set on human evolution and released a six -part miniseries on human evolution where we address these issues.

And here's the skinny. 232 ape men have come and gone.

So 232 times they said they found an ape man, and later the evolution scientist said, no, it wasn't.

And those 232 ape men that have been disproved turned out to be monkeys and apes and reptiles and barnyard animals, et cetera, et cetera.

So they have a very, very poor track record. And the other big news that just came out this year, and you can go to our website, is that we, and it's going to be hard to believe, but you'd have to know me to know the truthfulness of my words, is that we documented 150 frauds in the field of human evolution.

And I mean, when I say fraud, it means they knew that they were committing, they were telling a lie or they knew that they were making an alteration that was, you know, fictitious and they did it anyway.

Not a mistake. There's 40 ,000 mistakes that we documented. But as far as frauds in the field of human evolution, they're widespread and they involve all the biggest ape men that you probably saw on that display.

Homo habilis, that involved four frauds. Homo erectus, that involved three frauds.

The Australopithecus africanus, that involved about 30 frauds.

And Lucy involved four frauds. And, you know, the

American Museum itself had produced the Nebraska man, who was supposed to be an ape man.

That wasn't a mistake in pig tooth. It was a pig tooth that they thought was an ape man, but that wasn't a mistake.

It turns out that they knew the pig teeth from the site that they had collected them from in Nebraska.

They knew that the pig teeth looked like human teeth, but they failed to disclose that to the public when they announced that they had found an ape man in,

I think it was 1922 or something like that. So, yeah, the whole human evolution story is a mess and it's basically fallen apart this year with the uncovering of these 150 frauds, plus the 43 ,000 documented mistakes that we documented.

For example, you know, there's about 40 ,000 stone tools that they said, oh, we found a stone tool made by an ape man and 40 ,000 times it turned out to be just an ordinary rock.

But these things are still stored in the museums. Everybody agrees now that they're not ape man tools, but there's so many mistakes and so many frauds.

And also, Chris, the evolution scientists do not allow access to their fossils.

In other words, an evolution scientist cannot go look at an ape man fossil of his colleague because the colleagues keep them hidden so they can keep this story going that they found an ape man and keep getting grants.

So there's very little access and very fragmentary fossils.

And there's just not enough evidence that humans evolved from apes. And I could go give you more information, but that's probably enough for the audience.

OK, we have another listener in Oakton, Virginia, Xavier. And Xavier says, please forgive me if you've already discussed this because I'm tuning in late, but I have heard that there is a female paleontologist who is not even a

Christian or a young earther who discovered flesh still remaining on the bones of dinosaurs.

And there was some kind of a scandal surrounding that where she was discredited as a scientist.

Can you give us more information if you have not done so already? I'd be happy to.

Thank you, Xavier, for the question. So I don't know the exact years. In fact,

I'd say 20 years ago that scientists started to realize that if they broke open dinosaur horns, you know, like a

Triceratops horn or dinosaur bones, and they looked at them under a microscope, not a big powered microscope, but just a dissecting microscope, which only magnifies like 100 times, but not 10 ,000 times.

And if you look at it under a microscope, you can find the blood vessels are still intact, and you can take your tweezers and you can pull on them and they're still rubbery.

In other words, there is living, not living instead, but there's flesh, non -rotted flesh, there's flesh inside dinosaur bones.

And again, that would be impossible if the dinosaur bone is 65 million years old.

It wouldn't be impossible if it was thousands of years old, it would be more believable. But, you know, how could blood vessels, and by the way, it's not just blood vessels, there's cartilage, it's blood cells, it's,

I mean, the more they look, they keep finding all this recently deceased evidence, evidence of recently deceased dinosaurs.

And it really blew up the news because it is another conundrum to say that, no, the earth isn't, you know, the dinosaurs didn't live 65 million years ago, they lived thousands of years ago, not 65 millions.

So, in other words, this flesh would never, even according to a secular scientist's understanding of science, would never survive millions or billions of years.

That's right. And whatever happened to this woman, paleontologist, because I heard the same thing,

I don't remember the details, but there was some harm toward her career, if I'm not mistaken, at least there was an attempt at it, because it was disproving, the very evidence was disproving the theories of billions of years.

Yeah, and I don't know the specifics, but there was another scientist, Mark Armitage, who's a creationist, and he was at the

University of California, I think. He lost his job because he published articles about this too.

But now they've all kind of gone through that cycle of persecution, and now they're all heroes. But yeah, it's a terrible damning piece of evidence that you take a dinosaur bone and break it open, and you look at the marrow, and there's blood vessels in there.

And by the way, when we were at Dinosaur National Monument filming interviews, do you know that some of the dinosaur skulls are unfossilized?

Most people don't know that. Like, when we were there, the lady was, the lady paleontologist was explaining that, you know, some of the bones might only be partially fossilized.

In other words, they're real bone. Well, that's another problem, you know. And yeah, there's just so much evidence that now,

I can confidently say that the whole theory of naturalism has collapsed as of the year 2024, this year, 2024.

The entire theory of naturalism has collapsed. The Big Bang, the origin of life, the fossil record, the geology.

Is that acknowledged by those who espoused or advocated those theories?

No one has come up to speed with me yet. And I'll just tell you the truth.

We just released these two books on human evolution, and with these interviews with the 40 evolution scientists, with all of the frauds.

And I'm about a year or two in front of the pack, and people, it's going to take a while for people to catch up to me as far as the thinking.

But yeah, if anybody wants to invite me to the university and bring 100 professors there,

I will. Whole theory of naturalism doesn't work, just kind of like what we started on the show, starting with the

Big Bang, starting with the origin of life, starting with the fossil record, going through that. And Debbie, my wife, Debbie, and I were involved in the takedown of some of the biggest stories that they did have transitional fossils.

That was the walking whales. Debbie and I had interviewed the three walking whale discoverers who discovered these walking whales.

And they admitted on camera that they had added the whale flippers.

They admitted they had added the whale tail. They admitted they added the whale blowhole.

No, I'm serious. It's very serious stuff. And that's why I have this information, because I personally have been involved in so many of these uncoverings that people haven't caught up and processed the information.

But I'll just be frank. If you want me to be honest with you and your audience, the theory of naturalism went down this year.

And I can walk you through the whole, whole thing, including the mechanisms of evolution don't work and the genetics, et cetera, et cetera.

But that could be another day. OK, we have

Lance in Sammamish. I'm hoping

I'm pronouncing that correctly. Sammamish, Washington. And Lance says, wasn't the discovery of the

Lucy ape human turned out to be a fraud, even though there had been documentaries about it as if some kind of a mind blowing discovery that proved a transition from ape to human?

Yeah, Lance, that is true. And actually, those frauds now a fraud.

I don't use that word lightly, by the way. Fraud fraud is a scientist who knows what he's saying is wrong, and he tells it to you anyway to mislead you.

But the fraud that Lucy, Dr. Don Johansson was involved, these frauds and we documented those in this television miniseries that just came out.

And you can watch that from our website or you can get the DVDs or stream online, whatever. But I think it's on.

Let me think about this. I think it's episode five. And episode five is entitled Human Evolution Fraud, conducted by scientists working in North and South America.

We interviewed Dr. Don Johansson. We interviewed his partner, Dr. Yves Copens.

And then we filmed the fossils that went with the footprints in Tanzania.

And we uncovered three frauds, not one, but three frauds of Lucy.

And it'd probably be best just to watch it on the video because it would take 15 minutes to set it up here. But, yeah, it was a fraud.

So was the Nebraska man was not a mistake. It was a fraud. So was Neanderthal man was not a mistake.

It was frauds. You know, to my the late estate man, it's not a mistake. It was for frauds.

And how do I know this is because when we interviewed the evolution scientists, they didn't know that I was questioning evolution and they would tell us about their colleagues committing frauds.

And so it's like, OK, there's another one. OK, there's another one. And then sometimes we would see fraudulent activity in their photographs because we had just taken the photographs of the original skulls, the original what's supposed to be eight man skulls.

We get home and we start comparing them to the published photograph. And we realized they had doctored the photographs of their fossils.

For example, Richard Leakey doctored the photo of the Turkana boy and we photographed the original.

We looked at his fossils. And then he admitted to me through a interview by email that he had, in fact, placed the face in the wrong position.

So if you want, if you're really into this topic, I don't know how much you are, but it's the most exciting topic.

And it's the biggest revelation. It's like it's like living during the time of Galileo when he's being thrown in prison and the scientists are in uproar and somebody is claiming that the

Earth isn't the center of our solar system. And, you know, this big controversy and it's finally

Galileo comes up and, you know, proves that this is the year we are. We just lived it.

I never thought it would occur during my lifetime. I thought I would just do some of the work, but it happened this year.

And if you don't believe that, maybe just watch the eight videos. That's a starter. If you don't still need to still need a little more, you can go through and read our four book series.

But no, it's all over. OK, we have

Joaquin in the Bronx, New York, home of the New York Yankees.

And Joaquin says, isn't the very existence of fossils something that occurs by means of a flood that is necessary because it involves the carcass of an animal or a plant or other life form being instantaneously covered with hundreds, if not thousands of pounds of earth that mummifies it, which is something that has to happen in order for a fossil to exist.

When animals die in the forest every day, we don't have millions of fossils from these deaths.

There has to be some kind of a cataclysmic event. Doesn't this defy the reasons that fossils exist, according to the old earthers who deny a world flood?

Absolutely. Joaquin, you articulated that perfectly. I really don't have anything to add because, as he said, if an animal dies in the forest or on the side of a highway and you come back 40 years later, there is no there's no dead deer there.

It's just disintegrated. But you can get a fossil if it dies and falls to the bottom of a water column and then gets buried with sediment.

And then the sediment allows percolation of minerals such as calcium and the minerals replace the bone and the bone becomes calcified.

So fossils, you should only have like, you know, maybe 100 fossils in the world.

And you know how many fossils there are in the world? I told you one billion had been collected.

But the number that's still out there where they'll say, oh, over here, there's, you know, 100 billion.

It's trillions, with a T, trillions of fossils.

And you know that's true because you go out along any rock layer by your house and you'll find thousands of fossils.

There's trillions of fossils. And Joaquin is right. There should be, you know, hundreds, maybe a thousand, maybe a thousand.

And you should go to a museum to say, oh, look, here is a fossil. But no, fossils are everywhere.

500 ,000 fossil fish, you know, 950 million fossil invertebrates collected, you know, 500 ,000 fish collected, you know.

So, yeah, it's a beautiful point you raised. Thank you, Joaquin. OK, we have somebody with an interesting name in West Sayville, Long Island, Lady.

I don't know if that's a nickname. And Lady wants to know, weren't there interesting discoveries by young earth creationists after modern day cataclysmic events such as the eruption of Mount St.

Helens that prove a young earth paradigm?

Yes. The scientist that's responsible for that mostly is

Dr. Steve Austin. And you mean the million dollar man? There's six million dollars.

This one doesn't have any body parts. Anyway, Steve Austin went up to Mount St.

Helen and he did two things. He saw layers being deposited, one on top of another in a cataclysmic event.

But that event was just, you know, just a year or two that this volcanic activity.

And so he saw reproduction of layering. And number two, he went to the lake there.

There was a lake there at Mount St. Helen, and he went down into the bottom of the lake and he saw trees that had been blown up by the volcano that floated onto the lake, which eventually became waterlogged, eventually sank.

The trees he documented were vertical. And so that is how these vertical trees end up in the rock layers.

And you could speak to like a Dr. Andrew Snelling, who is a geologist, but they have enormous evidence of cataclysm in the geology and the cataclysm goes exactly against that.

The earth layers are hundreds of millions or billions of years old. So that evidence that you mentioned earlier on in the interview about the vertical trees amidst that came from Mount St.

Helen's that evidence. Well, he confirmed it. He confirmed it.

And he had he had the goods. There would be no other way to explain it other than that the tree got sunk and went to the bottom.

But he actually confirmed it because he actually got pictures of the trees standing on the bottom in the lake that are just floating there on the bottom of the bottom surface of the lake.

You know, yeah. OK, we have to go to our final break. And if you have a question that you would like to add to those already asked, submit it immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

Chris Arnzen at Gmail dot com. Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

If you've watched my dividing line webcast often enough, you know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.

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I'm Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church.

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net,

that's hopereformedli .net, or call 631 -696 -5711, that's 631 -696 -5711.

Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the

Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised

Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

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Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland, going back to 2005.

One of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron radio,

Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr.

Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the

Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great

Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone,

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For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit Heritage PresbyterianChurch .com.

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But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.

Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.

In the film, Chariots of Fire, Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt

God's pleasure when he ran. He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God.

He sensed that same God -given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.

That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a savior who died for sinners and that God forgives all who come to him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.

I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the

Bronx in New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com.

That's nhpbc .com. You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672.

That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.

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We're now back with Dr. Carl Werner, and we are continuing to discuss for the remainder of our time

Evolution, the Grand Experiment. And we have

Letitia in Wyandanch, Long Island, New York, who says,

I think that the people of color in the audience of this program should be very aware that Charles Darwin, to whom the theory of evolution is attributed, was an avowed racist, and very few people know that the full title that originally appeared on the cover of his book,

The Origin of the Species, was On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection or the

Preservation of Favored Races in the Struggle for Life. And white supremacists throughout history have used the idea that blacks and other minorities are closer on the evolutionary scale to apes, such as the

Nazis and others have perpetuated this lie, and yet leftists and liberals seem to be in full agreement with it.

What are your comments about that? I think Letitia from New York City is very well read, and she is correct.

Darwin predicted that the black race was going to go extinct. He said this outright in his book, that black race will go extinct because they're weaker.

And then when Darwin died, his successor, his name was

Ernst Haeckel. Ernst Haeckel then took this, and he started making drawings of black people with a protuberant snout, like their face was sticking out like a chimpanzee.

And he had drawings of an ape evolving into a black person who evolved into an

American Indian who evolved into somebody else, an Arctic person from the

Arctic into a white person. But those were all fabricated frauds because the skulls of black people don't show that their face is sticking out.

Just take photographs. You can see they look just like a white person, other than the color of their skin, some soft tissue issues.

And then from there, Haeckel, in the 1880s, do those fraudulent work, then inspired the

American Museum in New York City to put up a display. It was called From Fish to Man, and it showed a fish evolving into a possum, evolving a monkey into an ape.

And then between the ape and the white person, the American Museum had a black person as the ape man.

And the scientists at the American Museum and the predecessor,

Ernst Haeckel, called them non -humans. They weren't even considered homo sapiens.

So if you care about race, if you care about racial equality, you should be an enemy to evolution because evolution theory contributed to the apartheid movement in South Africa in the 1950s.

And it contributed to the continued racism in the United States, even after the

Emancipation Proclamation in the 1860s. We still had blacks who couldn't sit at the

Woolworth's counter. Why? Because they were, quote, ape men. Who said all this?

The evolution scientists from the American Museum of Natural History, arguably the most important museum in the world, was promoting this.

It was it was racial, terrible, terrible racial discrimination.

Yeah. In fact, I want all of my listeners to look up the name Ota Banga, O -T -A,

B as in boy, E -N -G -A, who was a young black man kept in a monkey cage in the

Bronx Zoo in 1906. And he was put on exhibit because it was apparently to prove by the folks promoting the idea of eugenics, which is all hand in hand with the racist theory of Darwinian evolution, that this young man was a close relative of the apes.

That young man, unfortunately, tragically wound up committing suicide. Wow. And so you can look that up,

Ota Banga, and you will be as amazed as you will be disgusted by what happened.

Well, I would like you in about two minutes time to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

You know, this information will do me no good. It can't end with Carl Werner.

I've done all the work. And now this information needs to reach your kids, your grandkids, your nieces and nephews.

If it just stays within this small community, we've missed the opportunity.

If you teach why evolution doesn't work, you can save your kids from a great fall.

And so I would encourage you to get my books with the curriculum.

And if you're a homeschooler, you teach the four semesters of creation versus evolution in our series.

And if you're responsible for a church school, to institute the four semesters, maybe starting on seventh grade, eighth grade, but it could be done any time after that, high school or college.

And the information's here. And I have it. You sound like Letitia and all the other persons that we're calling are very well versed in information.

But that's going to do no good unless we take this to the people we love.

You know, so I encourage you to get informed, to start teaching your grandkids during the summertime, your kids during homeschool, your

Christian school, you start teaching them. You could just go through the grand experiment. And the kids, by the way, love this book series because it has about 900 color photographs of fossils in each book.

So they just like they love this course. So, yeah, it's now the onus is on your listener,

Chris. Your listeners have to now pick up the gauntlet and carry it. Amen.

And for more details on all of my guests' writings, go to thegrandexperiment .com,

thegrandexperiment .com. And I've got great news for all of our listeners who submitted questions today.

You have all won by the courtesy and generosity of New Leaf Publishing Group. You've all won the free two -volume hardback set of The Grand Experiment.

So make sure that you all give me your full mailing addresses. And Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com

will ship out those volumes to you. And thanks again to New Leaf Publishing Group for that generous gift to us, where we could give our listeners that hardback two -volume set, which is a combined total of approximately 600 pages of information and over $75 in value.

Well, I want to thank you for being such an extraordinary guest. Dr. Werner, I look forward to your return to the show.

I want to thank everybody who listened. I want you all to have a safe and happy and healthy and Christ -honoring weekend and Lord's Day.

And I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.