May 1, 2024 Show with Jacob Tanner on “The Tinker’s Progress: The Life & Times of John Bunyan”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson,

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Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man

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have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener,

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity

living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday

on this first day of May 2024.

Before I introduce my guest and our topic today, I wanted to give you an update.

The last I heard an update, in fact, from Josh Bice,

the founder and president of G3 Ministries and pastor of Praise Mill Baptist Church of

Douglasville, Georgia, a mutual friend of Dr. James R. White of Alpha

Omega Ministries.

The last I heard an update was from Pastor Josh Bice about James White's

health, and it appears that nothing has changed in regard to the

fact that his health condition is not life -threatening and that

whatever the health concern is, is expected by his

doctors to be rectified soon.

So I have no other details other than that.

The emergency surgery that he had apparently yesterday

was successful, I'm assuming, because the doctors determined nothing that he had

was life -threatening.

So we can all praise God for that, and if I get any further updates, I will let you know even if it's

in the middle of today's show.

Also, continued prayers requested for the granddaughter of

my very dear friend Dr. Joseph C. Moorcraft III of

Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia, one of the largest financial sponsors of Iron Troupe and Zion

Radio.

He and his wife Becky have been keeping me updated on their precious little granddaughter,

Rebecca Hope, who was just born, I think, about a week ago at just over

three pounds with a life -threatening heart condition.

The doctors knew about the heart condition before inducing labor,

and the baby's heart condition does not seem to have improved at all.

But the baby, little Rebecca Hope, has outlived the doctor's expectations.

She was not expected to even live this long, and apparently, they know

for certain she's got healthy lungs because she cries very loudly, and she lets her parents know

when she's not pleased with how they lay her in the crib or whatever else they may do that

annoys her, she cries, which is a good sign.

So please keep praying for little Rebecca Hope.

And we also join the Moorcrafts in rejoicing that this baby has outlived

the doctor's expectations, and we pray that this baby grows up to be a very strong

Christian woman.

And we will also keep you updated on little Rebecca Hope's progress.

But today I have on the program a returning guest.

His name is Jacob Tanner.

He's an author and pastor of Christ Keystone Church of Middleburg, Pennsylvania.

Today we're going to be addressing his book, The Tinker's Progress, The Life and Times of John Bunyan.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to On Interpreted Zion Radio, Pastor Jacob Tanner.

Yeah, Chris, thank you for having me back on the show.

I appreciate it.

Oh, it's my pleasure, brother.

And please let our listeners know more about Christ Keystone Church of Middleburg, Pennsylvania.

Sure.

So our church is still a relatively new church.

It was planted a little less than two years ago at this point, and really that first year was

spent partially in my own home and my backyard and a few other places.

So we haven't been in the location we're at now for very long at all.

We've been there for a little over a year at this point.

And really our emphasis has been on reformed expository

preaching and really establishing a biblical church membership

within our area and establishing genuine Christian fellowship.

So we have kind of three taglines that explain the mission and the work of what we're doing at Christ Keystone.

And that would be to reform, reform the church, to rebuild biblical communities

and to reclaim culture for Christ.

So reform, rebuild, reclaim.

And our hope is that we're part of this mission of seeing God's glory cover the earth as the waters cover the

seas, as Habakkuk 2 .14 says.

And if anybody listening to this would ever be interested in attending or if you're in the area looking for a church, you are

more than welcome to come and join us.

We have Sunday school, 9 .30 a .m., worship at 10 .30.

And right now I'm actually working through preaching the Gospel of Matthew.

Well, praise God.

And is this a theologically reformed congregation?

And is it a Baptist, Pado -Baptist, if you could get more detail on that?

Yep.

So we are, theologically we hold to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith.

That doesn't mean that everybody in the church lines up completely with Reformed Baptist theology,

but that's where the majority of the congregation leans.

And those who have become members of the church also subscribe to it, even if they have a few differing areas, as in the case of

baptism.

Yes, and I believe that is a very healthy approach.

In fact, when I got saved and requested baptism, I was

vehemently anti -Calvinist.

At least I was against the caricature of Calvinism I had in

my head that was not even real.

And my elders told me that they would welcome me into membership

as long as I did not undermine or seek to undermine the teachings of the church, as long as

I submitted to the fact that that was what they believed, as long as I believed in the essentials of the gospel and showed

credible evidence of repentance, they welcomed me into membership.

And praise be to God, within months I fell in love with the doctrines of grace.

So I think that's the healthiest approach, because when you demand somebody be in

lockstep with a confession, with everything it says in the confession, that you are going to be either

consciously or unconsciously causing people to fake agreement if they want to be a

member of the church.

So...

Amen.

And I think what happens, too, is when you—I think it's Steve Lawson that says, when somebody's saved, they're basically an Arminian to

begin with.

So if we see somebody in our church get saved and we begin the discipleship process and we eventually

baptize them, they do meet the requirements at that point for membership, even if they can't fully articulate the

doctrine of election or something like that.

So that's why we kind of have taken the stance that we have.

And at the same time, we've seen attracted to our church Presbyterians, Reformed

Presbyterians.

And so we want to be as ecumenical as we can be while still

holding to the confession.

So I would say the church itself holds to the 1689.

We have a few that hold to the Westminster Confession.

But we are Reformed in that sense.

Great.

And once again, if anybody has any interest in finding out more about Christ Keystone

Church in Middleburg, Pennsylvania, go to ChristKeystoneChurch .org,

ChristKeystoneChurch .org, and God willing, we will repeat that information later on in

the program.

All right.

I am very happy that you have informed me that you intend to attend the next

free biannual Iron Trip and Zion Radio Pastor's Luncheon featuring Dr. Joel Beeky this June 6th.

Yeah, praise the Lord.

It's going to be great to see you there.

Have you been to one of the luncheons?

I can't remember right now.

I was supposed to come to, I believe, the last one.

And that was great when my father was battling cancer.

He ended up passing away in October.

So I did not make it to the last one.

This will be the first one, Lord willing.

Great.

Well, if anybody who is a man in ministry leadership would like to join Pastor Jacob

Tanner at the next free Iron Trip and Zion Radio biannual Pastor's Luncheon,

featuring for the very first time Dr. Joel Beeky, who is the founder

and was for many years the president of Puritan Reform Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids,

Michigan, of which he is now chancellor and the author of numerous books.

He is going to be our keynote speaker.

And everything is free at the insistence of my precious late wife, Julie,

now spending eternity with Christ in glory.

She is the one who came up with the concept of these luncheons back in the 1990s.

And she insisted that we never sell anything at these events.

In fact, everybody who attends is going to get a very heavy sack of free brand new books

personally selected by me and donated by Christian publishers all over the United States and the United

Kingdom, absolutely free.

So every single thing is free.

The only reason you need to bring your wallet with you is if you get pulled over speeding to the luncheon

and you have to show your identification to a police officer.

But you don't need your wallet for any other reason at this event, and you never do.

So I hope that if you would like to attend and are able to attend, if you're a man in ministry leadership, send me an

email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com and put Pastor's Luncheon in the subject line, and you will be registered for this

free event.

Well, I think it is a good idea, even though

I'm assuming, since I am also assuming that the vast majority of my listeners

are theologically reformed, although I have listeners that are.

Not.

I even have listeners that are not Christians.

But I'm assuming that the vast majority of my listeners have some idea

of who John Bunyan was, and I don't know if

his record for the sale of Pilgrim's Progress

has been beaten yet.

But for many years, even within my lifetime, Pilgrim's Progress was the best

-selling book in the world of any category next to the scriptures, next to the Bible.

But perhaps you could give us a summary of who this great man of history was, John Bunyan.

Sure.

So John Bunyan is one of my own personal heroes of the Christian faith, a

man that God used mightily in my own life, though he lived centuries ago.

The Lord spoke through the writings of Bunyan to me, even as a young man.

So Bunyan was a Puritan, and what that means is that he was living in England

during the time of the 17th century, so that would be the 1600s.

And during the 1600s, Bunyan was preaching the gospel

without a license.

So he was a nonconformist as far as the Church of England, the Anglican Church, was

concerned.

And so Bunyan, who was an unlearned man, he was not an educated man, he didn't come from

a rich family, he ended up really turning the world upside down.

And the way that he did that was by writing the Pilgrim's Progress from a prison cell.

But before Bunyan ever wrote the Pilgrim's Progress from within a prison cell, he, like

you and I and everyone listening to this, Bunyan was born a sinner.

And his parents were not necessarily great Christian parents.

In fact, he didn't seem to have very much guide at all when it came to the Christian faith.

Was he raised Anglican?

Well, technically, kind of, he would have been.

There's some debate on that exactly of when he would have been introduced to nonconformist teachings.

But yes, he would have been familiar with Anglicanism or the Church of England.

In fact, there's some record that he was baptized in the Church of England.

But later in life, after he served in the military, he began to adopt these sort

of...

Hello, Jacob, are you there?

Hello, Jacob, we lost you.

...least likely candidates to write the Pilgrim's Progress, to become a great pastor and preacher.

He really was one of the least likely candidates.

This is a man who did not spend his life in church.

This is a man who was not learned.

He was not educated.

In fact, and I know we'll have a lot of time to talk about this, but the reason why I titled the book The Tinkerer's

Progress is because that's what they called him.

They called John Bunyan the Tinkerer, and they did not mean that in a positive

way.

That was a pejorative term.

So that was meant as an insult.

Isn't that what he actually was?

Oh, yeah, that's what he actually was.

That's what his family was.

But it was not a high -paying job.

A mender of pots and pans.

That's correct, yep.

And so if you would think of a blacksmith, he was even less than that.

A tinkerer was somebody who went around the countryside basically mending pots and pans and

made very, very little money in doing so.

And one of the things that fascinates me about this is that tinkerers were often

sort of connected with the idea of gypsies.

And gypsies were connected to this idea of a traveling band of Jews.

And so Bunyan, when they called him a tinkerer, they also sometimes would call him a gypsy, an unlearned gypsy.

And the idea here was that they were sort of just against him from his birth.

They didn't like his background.

They didn't like his family history.

They didn't like the job that he had.

There were all of these different things really working against Bunyan.

And then on top of that, you have an unlearned, uneducated poor man.

I mean, he was, again, the least likely in society to eventually rise up to write one of the most

influential books of all time.

But then you have his sins on top of that.

Bunyan, again, like you and I, was born a sinner and he lived a life of sin

for many decades, for many years until the Lord graciously called him

from that sin and from that iniquity.

One of my favorite stories, in fact, about Bunyan comes from a time when he was

known for his swearing.

So depending on where your listeners are listening from, swearing would either be the same as cursing or cussing, right?

And the idea was Bunyan swore like a sailor.

He used extremely foul, extremely vulgar language.

It's just what he was known for.

You didn't tell me.

Bunyan was a Lutheran.

I'm only kidding.

Yeah, that's right.

Well, you know, surprisingly, it was Luther that eventually had a profound impact on him.

But no, at this point, he was not a Christian.

He was a very, very vulgar man.

And what makes this story one of my favorites is he was doing what he normally did.

He said in his biography, Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners, that he loved to swear.

And one of his favorite pastimes especially was to swear on the Lord's Day.

And so there he was, you know, going through town, swearing, cursing, playing the madman when suddenly

a woman in the town came to rebuke him for his sinfulness.

And this woman, Bunyan says, was an ungodly, loose woman herself.

So this woman is not a bastion of holiness.

She's not a righteous woman.

People don't think of her as a great Christian.

Everybody thinks of her as being a sinner.

And she comes to Bunyan one day.

And basically this is a paraphrase into 21st century jargon.

She basically says to him, do you kiss your mother with that mouth?

You are so, so wretched, so filthy, so ungodly that

you are liable to pollute every single youth in this town with that mouth.

And that moment is one of those moments in the life of Bunyan where God uses

the rebuke of another sinner to really begin to twist and to turn Bunyan away

from that sin and to pull him toward the Lord Jesus Christ.

And it's a great moment and I think it's also one of those things that made Bunyan so real.

Even if you read him now, he's a guy that speaks directly to the heart and the soul

of not just the Christian but the nonbeliever as well because he gets it.

He's not your ivory tower theologian.

He's your salt of the earth sort of guy.

Just your common man speaking directly to you the gospel truths.

The people who love the most are the ones who are willing to insult you the most sometimes.

Not because they just want to insult you but they're willing to speak the truth.

And I think that's exactly what you find with Bunyan.

You find a man who is willing to speak the truth because he loves the Lord and he loves

people.

And he knew what it was to walk in sin and he experienced the great grace of God as

well.

So I don't want to get too carried away at this point, Chris.

If you want me to keep going here with Bunyan's life, I can.

Or if there are some questions that you have related to that, I'd be happy to answer them.

Well, I'm going to ask one question before we go to our first commercial break.

And then when we return, you can just pick up because I like the direction you're going.

The question I have is what were the providential circumstances

that evolved that brought Bunyan to a position?

Unless I'm wrong, I've always understood that Bunyan was a credo Baptist.

That's right.

When did he get introduced to that concept?

And do you have any idea historically of how he came around to embracing it?

And also, there seems to be a question mark over whether he was Baptistic

or an effusionist.

Yeah.

So those are good questions.

It seems to me in my research, and I write about this a little bit in the biography as well, that the

earliest point where he would have really been introduced to Baptist theology would have

been when he was a late teenager and he was serving in the army at that point.

Again, being introduced at the very least to nonconformist teachings.

So as he was being introduced to that, we know at the same time that back in Bedford, which is the town where Bunyan

would basically make his home.

It's right next to where he was born.

Bedford ended up having a couple of Baptist preachers come in, and some of them actually would be the

ones who would end up working on the First London Baptist Confession, the Second London Baptist Confession.

So there was an influence in Bedford of nonconformist Baptist theology.

And it seems like it's around that time that he's really introduced to it for the very first time.

And then, of course, eventually the pastor that he would sit under held to Baptistic

theology, which had a profound influence and impact on him as he would then begin preaching and

pastoring himself.

But as far as the next question is concerned, that is a large debate.

Was Bunyan Baptistic?

Was he a Baptist?

You know, if Bunyan was around today, I think this is an interesting question.

Would he be a Reformed Baptist?

And I think that if Bunyan were around today and we had, you know, all of the labels that we use today,

Bunyan would probably call himself a Reformed Baptist and would be embraced by just about

nobody.

And what I mean by that is Bunyan had a very interesting viewpoint when

it came to, for example, communion, church membership, even baptism itself,

from what I understand.

And Bunyan wrote about this a great deal.

And there's sometimes an inconsistency there, to be honest.

And the inconsistency seems somewhat to deal with the fact that he was willing to embrace into church

membership and to even allow the participation into communion into the Lord's Supper of those who were

baptized as infants but not baptized as believers.

And yet he insisted upon the necessity of being baptized as a believer.

So there's an inconsistency there at the very least in church polity and the way that he

would function with church membership.

Was he, though, a Baptist?

I believe wholeheartedly he was.

I think if he had the 1689 Confession before him, he would probably say yes and amen to all of

it.

It was just that there was a little bit of inconsistency on occasion when it came to implementing those things into the

membership of his own church.

So it's an interesting scenario.

At the same time, I can't stress this enough.

The arguments that he makes are biblical.

So even if you don't agree with him, you have to at least acknowledge that he knows the Bible and he's not

pulling these things out of thin air.

He has reasons for coming to the conclusions he does, even if you disagree with those reasons.

And then on top of that, the way that he argues is not only

persuasive, but it's so kind and gracious.

One of the things that I love, in fact, about when Bunyan's arguing is his opponents, who are his brothers and

sisters in Christ often, his own brothers in Christ will just hurl these darts, these arrows

at him and say, you know, you're unlearned.

You're a dumb tinker.

You're a gypsy.

You're all of these different things.

And Bunyan will come along and he'll go, yeah, yeah, that's true.

I am all of those things.

But you know what?

Even the dumb unlearned tinker knows enough to know scripture.

So let's go ahead and have this debate.

And it's just this amazing sort of mercy, compassion and graciousness

coupled with the ability to use the sort of serrated edge to make a persuasive

case for his beliefs.

But you never get the sense that he's arrogant in doing so.

And that's one of the things that I just absolutely love about John Bunyan.

He's not afraid to enter into the theological squared circle, you know, and have a wrestling match.

But he's never going to do it in a prideful way.

He's always going to have a sense of humility about him.

And so even when you read it and you disagree with what you're reading he's saying, I think that there's

so much to learn from at the very least the posture in which he enters into these theological debates.

Yes, it's no wonder then why Charles Spurgeon loved him so much.

I don't mean that they knew each other.

They lived in different centuries.

But Spurgeon wrote of John Bunyan, prick him anywhere and you will

find that his blood is Bib line.

The very essence of the Bible flows from him.

And Spurgeon also, who was not formally educated, but yet brilliant.

And when you have been repeating that Bunyan was

not educated, what you really mean, he was not formally educated because he was certainly a

man who was extremely educated in the scriptures and very

literate in the scriptures.

And when you read Bunyan, you don't get the impression that you're reading the

works of some novice to the faith or someone who is

clumsy with vocabulary or not very bright at all.

You know, you don't get that impression at all.

You think you're right.

You're reading the books of a highly educated person.

In fact, one of the most brilliant men that ever dawned a pulpit and

ever put pen to paper in the Christian faith, John Owen invited

Bunyan to preach for him.

And you're not going to have John Owen having a moron get from behind his pulpit.

Yes, that's true.

And actually, I think one of the reasons why I want to stress that and what makes this so incredible is that

although Bunyan was not formally educated, so he didn't go to Bible college or anything like that,

according to his own writing.

And this could be, you know, some people have suggested this is false humility.

It's self deprecating.

But I don't get that sense.

When you read Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners, Bunyan says that by the time, you know, he was a teenager, by the

time he became a Christian, then in his 20s, he had basically forgotten all of the learning that he had.

So he could no longer really remember how to read or write, he says.

And he has to relearn how to do that in order to begin to read the Bible.

And yet it seems as though the Lord graciously grants him the ability to remember how to do these things,

because pretty soon he's reading Luther's commentary on the letter to the epistle to the Romans.

And like you said, eventually John Owen hears about John Bunyan.

And so if I have two favorite Puritans, if you ask me to pick three favorite Puritans, I have a really hard time.

But if you ask me to pick my two top favorite Puritans, I can tell you beyond all doubt it's John Bunyan and John Owen.

Two men who could not be further apart, both on the economic spectrum, but then also when it

comes to social class, when it comes to learning.

Owen was top of the top, right?

He was top of the class.

He was a seminary graduate, a seminary professor.

Here you have the well -learned and well -educated man.

And then you have Bunyan on the other side.

And yet these two men become these great friends.

And not only does Owen actually have Bunyan come and preach for him, but Owen would go on to

say when he was asked once, why do you go out to listen to the poor tinker preach?

You know, why are you going out to what basically amounts to these barns in the middle of nowhere to hear an

unlicensed man preach the word of God?

Why are you doing that?

Owen responds and says, if I could preach just a little bit

like he does, how much good would be accomplished?

And so you had guys like John Owen seeing in Bunyan the grace of God

abounding within the life of this unlearned man.

And I think what's so great about that is that you can't give the credit to Bunyan then.

You have to acknowledge that whatever gifting he possessed, it had to have come from the Lord.

And so when you read John Bunyan, it's not like you read the Pilgrim's Progress and walk away

going, how wonderful John Bunyan must have been.

I mean, sure, there's an aspect of that.

But really, you're walking away from the Pilgrim's Progress reading that great work, that great allegorical work.

And you're saying, what a great God we serve.

What an amazing savior we have.

How incredible this unbroken chain of redemption and salvation that goes all the way from election to

glorification.

What an amazing God.

And that that, again, I think is one of those amazing things that you're not going to

find in most writers.

You're not going to find that in most pastors or preachers today.

And John Owen had that, too.

But John Owen had it in a different way.

Right.

So John Owen, he's your learned man.

He's the guy that if you're going to read one of his theology books, buckle up, right?

Because you're not getting done anytime soon.

You will definitely get a migraine reading John Owen.

But he's fantastic, right?

So you can sense the Holy Spirit at work in the pen of Owen.

Not that his works were inspired in the same way the scriptures, of course.

But you can sense God is at work in that man.

But Bunyan, I mean, he same thing.

God is at work in Bunyan's writings.

But it's clearer in a sense.

It's simpler in a sense.

And yet it's every bit as profound.

So, again, you've got two men, two different ends of the spectrum.

But God is able to use both of them in mighty ways.

And I think that's a great encouragement.

Hopefully it's an encouragement to somebody listening to this that it really doesn't matter where you begin.

What matters is where you are right now, whether or not you're in Christ, whether or not you know Christ.

And if you know Christ and your desire is to serve Christ, well, praise the Lord, sky's the limit.

And he is able to take even the tinker.

And he is able to cause grace to abound in the most amazing of ways

possible.

Yes, and before I forget, I might as well highly recommend John Owen's work, The

Death of Death and the Death of Christ, for anybody grappling with

limited atonement, also known as definite atonement or particular redemption.

A classic work on that subject.

And after reading that, if you're still confused, read John Murray's much shorter book, Redemption

Accomplished and Applied.

But one more clarification before we go to the break.

When you said that you believe Bunyan was most certainly a Baptist, were you meaning by that

an immersionist and not an effusionist?

That's right.

Yep.

Have you heard that argument that he was an effusionist?

Because I heard it somewhere.

I have heard it before.

I've heard, believe it or not, since I've published The Tinker's Progress, I've heard a lot more arguments for

that than I realized existed.

But Bunyan definitely did practice immersion.

Everything I've seen says that he practiced immersion.

Really, the biggest challenge for people, it seems to be that communion debate.

That seems to be the one that I get the more of.

But, yeah, I've heard the debate.

I'm not sure where it originated from or where it came from.

Do you remember where you first heard it?

No, I just remember people saying it emphatically to me that when I was making the argument that

he was a particular Baptist.

Oh, he was an effusionist.

I just remember on several occasions hearing that.

And for those of our listeners who don't have never heard that term, that means baptism by pouring.

And it's typically used to people who are credo Baptists who believe in the baptism of

believers alone.

Yeah, and it's interesting because I'm not sure where the argument came from

or where it originates from.

But I have heard it before.

What I do know is that Bunyan did practice immersion.

He did baptize believers.

I've not seen anything to suggest that he baptized infants, by the way, either, because I did have somebody make that

argument recently.

I think maybe, again, the confusion comes from the fact that he was willing to admit

pedo Baptists into communion.

So he was willing to permit them to partake of the Lord's Supper and to have some sort of membership within the

church.

I think that's probably where it comes from, but I'm not entirely certain.

But as far as I can tell, Bunyan did practice immersion himself personally.

All right, we're going to our first commercial break.

If you'd like to join the conversation with a question of your own, send it to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence.

Don't go away.

We will be right back after these messages.

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the gospel in the southwest portion of Long Island, New York, and play our role in fulfilling the Great Commission,

supporting and sending for the spread of the gospel to the ends of the earth.

We're delighted to be a part of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio advertising family.

At Lindbrook Baptist Church, we believe the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the inspired Word of

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We believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

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That's L -Y -N -Brookbaptist .org.

This is Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church reminding you that by grace you have been saved through

faith, and that not of yourselves.

It is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast of

the Lord's blessing and the knowledge of himself.

I'm Pastor Bill Shishko of The Haven, an Orthodox Presbyterian church in Comac, Long Island.

I hold the Iron Sharpens Iron radio program hosted by my longtime friend and

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I'm also delighted that Iron Sharpens Iron is partnering with one of my favorite resources for

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We're now back with Jacob Tanner, and we are discussing his book, The Tinker's Progress.

I do want to read a commendation for this book written by my friend Ray Rhodes, who

is pastor of Grace Community Church in Dawsonville, Georgia, and the author of Susie, The Life

and Legacy of Susanna Spurgeon.

We owe Jacob Tanner a debt of gratitude for his fresh work on Bunyan through this new book,

Bunyan Lives Again.

And that is a commendation not to be taken lightly from a man the likes of Ray Rhodes.

And by the way, Jacob, I believe it was you that said that you asked for my recommendation

for a preacher for perhaps a men's conference or something like that.

That's right.

Well, the gentleman that I brought up to you, the United States

Marine, who is also a pastor,

Kevin Gerard, he is Ray Rhodes' co -pastor.

Oh, OK.

I actually know who you're talking about now.

OK.

OK.

So he would be a great one.

In fact, Ray would, too.

That's true.

But if you could, pick up where you left off now.

Maybe I'll throw in the question.

There have been other books about John Bunyan and Pilgrim's Progress

and so on.

What would make your approach to The Life and Legacy of John Bunyan unique?

So that was one of the questions that I had early on in the writing process.

Why write a biography of a historical figure that so many have written about

already?

And I think what kind of started this project in the first place is I was

teaching at the church that I was pastoring at the time through different facets of church history.

And we happened upon John Bunyan as we were going through the Puritan age.

And I spent a couple of times talking about John Bunyan.

And it was one of those things where the congregation really enjoyed it.

I really enjoyed it.

And I began to think to myself, I wonder if this is something that would be helpful to other people.

To have a biography that's not necessarily focused on being

purely academical, but a biography that's focused on just being readable.

Because as I found, as I was teaching this series to these

churchgoers who were well on in age, many of them had never read John Bunyan.

And that was surprising to me because these are people who had been in church for 70, 80 years.

And maybe they had read The Pilgrim's Progress, but even some of them didn't read that or they didn't remember reading it.

And I thought to myself, that would be an absolutely terrible thing if we lose

Bunyan in the tradition of the Christian faith.

It would be like losing Charles Spurgeon.

It would be like losing John Calvin.

This is a guy that we need to read.

We need to remember him.

God didn't just use him mightily for that age.

He still speaks today.

So I began to think, how can I write something that will appeal to the

widest possible audience?

Which, when it comes to writing, is not really the easiest thing to do.

But my desire was to get people reading John Bunyan again.

So the way I tackled the entire project was just as a pastor speaking to his

congregation, if that makes sense.

So my goal was not to be the most intelligent guy in the room.

The goal was not to be the most academic person in the room.

The goal was to explain the truth, to explain Bunyan's history, but also

as much as possible to let Bunyan speak for himself.

So one of the things that I was really conscientious to do, and this is just something I like to do in general,

rather than appealing to every secondary source that I could possibly find, I go to a lot of the

primary sources.

So in other words, what you're going to find quoted in the Tinker's Progress more than anything else

is John Bunyan himself.

And I thought that was important to do.

And if I wanted people to read Bunyan, then I had to show them that this guy is actually a really, really good writer.

And you shouldn't be afraid of him just because he wrote a couple centuries ago.

You can understand him.

And so I think what maybe separates this from other biographies that are also excellent, by the way,

what separates this is that I'm trying to appeal really as a pastor

to his flock.

So I have a pastoral tone that I'm trying to take in the book.

And I'm trying to speak to people who in a sense I'm trying to

evangelize to Bunyan, right?

I'm trying to win them to his writings.

But that's really not the final goal either.

The goal is to actually win them to Christ.

So in a way, Bunyan I think is a great example of what we read about in Hebrews 11

and 12.

He is in a sense part of that faith hall of fame.

And he's part of that great cloud of witnesses that directs our gaze to Christ.

And so with that pastoral tone, my prayer is that I not only get people to read

Bunyan and excited to read Bunyan, but hopefully point them to Christ and show them the importance of

living life for the glory of God.

Amen.

Sorry about that.

I had my microphone on mute.

Well, we should take at least one listener question before the

second commercial break, I should say.

We have Tony in Rockville Center, Long Island, New York.

Hey, Long Island, that's where I'm from.

Oh, you know, that's right.

I forgot that.

Where were you from?

Holtzville, New York.

Oh, I know Holtzville very well.

Yeah, where were you from again?

I forget. Sorry.

Amityville, Long Island.

Spent most of my life there before moving to Pennsylvania, with the exception of a decade in

Lindenhurst.

Okay.

My dad worked for a company, Sweezy's, out there.

And he would tell me stories about working on the house next to the Amityville Horror House.

Oh, yeah.

So, yes, I'm familiar with that area too.

And I'm very familiar with that house.

In fact, it was a classmate of mine in grammar school, who, along with the rest of his siblings and parents,

was murdered by his oldest brother.

Oh, wow.

So, very familiar with the house.

In fact, when I worked for the Amityville Highway Department, one of my jobs years later, after the

murders, was to chase tourists off the property.

Oh, really?

Tourists would flock there because it had become one

of the most highly celebrated houses in the world,

connected with the paranormal and all that stuff.

Right, right.

Excuse me.

That's a different podcast, huh?

That's a different radio show.

Tony wants to know—let's see.

I just was looking at it.

Where is it?

Oh, here it is.

Tony wants to know, when did this fellowship and friendship begin between John Owen

and John Bunyan?

Was it prior to Bunyan's imprisonment or after?

So, it looks like it was actually prior.

In fact, what's amazing about this is Owen had a role to play in

getting Bunyan out of prison.

Now, the reason why I say it's prior and the reason why I say it looks like it— there's a

little bit of confusion here.

So, Bunyan was in prison for 12 years the first time.

And although he was in prison, he was actually able to leave at times and

still go preach.

So, there was this—it wasn't really even a deal.

It was kind of strange the way it worked out.

And it's even strange to talk about and to try to explain it.

But basically, there were occasions where he was able to go and minister to his flock.

And he was still working from inside of prison as well.

So, he was writing.

His daughter, Mary, who in fact, if you look at the cover of the Tinker's Progress, that's the portrait that was chosen for it.

I love the picture.

Oh, yeah.

It's Bunyan inside of the jail cell, and it's his daughter Mary nearby, and she was blind.

And he's basically in the middle of writing, and she's there.

He had a great affection for that daughter of his.

But anyway, they allowed him and permitted him to do certain things that in our minds

today just would not happen because today they would not happen.

But back then, there was some favor, some grace that was shown to Bunyan.

And so it's possible that even while he was in prison that Owen was still able to go hear him preach at that point as well.

But it was before they would have been somewhat acquainted.

And again, Owen did help him to at least be

shown some grace, some favor while in prison.

And he did have a role to play in getting him released.

If I remember correctly, I think both times.

Great.

Well, thank you, Tony.

And keep listening to Iron Trip and Zion Radio and spreading the word about the program in Rockville Center and beyond.

We have to go to our midway break right now, folks.

Please use this time wisely.

Please write down as much of the contact information as you possibly can for as many of our advertisers

as you can so that you can more frequently and successfully respond to our advertisers, keeping in mind

that our advertisers are what keep Iron Trip and Zion Radio in existence through the

financing that their advertising campaigns provide.

So please respond to our advertisers.

We hope that you very often buy their products, use their services, visit

their churches.

But when you can't do any of that, please do one thing that every single Iron Trip and Zion Radio listener can do.

Respond to our advertisers and say thank you for sponsoring Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

And perhaps a couple of sentences with specific reasons why you are thanking them and why you love the show.

But please try to respond to our advertisers nonetheless.

And also, don't forget to send in your questions to Jacob Tanner about

John Bunyan and this book that Jacob Tanner has written, The Tinker's Progress.

Send in your questions to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back after these messages.

Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio has had a long -time partnership with our friends at

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Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church.

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But today, I want to introduce you to my senior pastor, Doug McMasters

of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.

Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John

MacArthur.

In the film Chariots of Fire, the Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt God's

pleasure when he ran.

He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God.

I sense that same God -given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and

love for God.

That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a savior who died for sinners,

and that God forgives all who come to him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.

I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens

or Brooklyn or the Bronx in New York City.

For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit nhpbc .com.

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You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672.

That's 516 -352 -9672.

That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ,

committed to learning and being shaped by God's word, and delighting in the gospel of God's

sovereign grace.

God bless you.

I'm Dr.

Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at

Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use

the eight -volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the Westminster Larger Catechism, titled

Authentic Christianity, by Dr. Joseph Morecraft.

It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism.

It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and

systematic theology.

Dr. Morecraft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking

for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.

For details on the eight -volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com,

westminstercommentary .com.

For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit

heritagepresbyterianchurch .com, heritagepresbyterianchurch .com.

Please tell Dr. Morecraft and the saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr. Joseph

Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sent you.

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American

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It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been

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Hello, my name is Anthony Uvino, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corum, New York, and

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I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show like I do, you can now find it on the

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Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show at any time, day or night.

Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many

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Truth is so hard to come by these days, so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news.

Subscribe to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio podcast right now.

And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the reformrookie .com podcast and visit our website and the YouTube

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We are dedicated to teaching Christian theology from a Reformed Baptist perspective to beginners in the faith as

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From Keech's Catechism and the Doctrines of Grace to the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Leviticus, the Reform

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And finally, if you're looking to worship in a Reformed church that holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession

of Faith, please join us at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York.

Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invinio, and thanks for listening.

If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is

by supporting our advertisers.

One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnton is doing is

Daniel P. Patafuco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society.

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Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,.

Give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

And I have some excellent recommendations for books available

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The first is The Pilgrim's Progress, the 1891 edition with

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Just go to solid -ground -books .com and you will find a treasure trove of books,

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If you've never purchased from solid -ground -books .com before, please make today your very first purchase.

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always purchase generously as you can at solid -ground -books .com, one of the largest financial

supporters of Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

Before I return to my discussion with Jacob Tanner on The Tinker's Progress, the book that

he has written in honor and tribute to John Bunyan, we have some important announcements to make.

If you love this show, folks, and you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, I'm urging you, please, go to

irontripandzionradio .com today, click support, then click click to donate now.

You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion.

And if you prefer snail mail, sending in a physical check to a physical address the old -fashioned way from

your post office, there will also be a physical address that appears on your screen when you click

support on irontripandzionradio .com, where you can mail your checks, may payable through Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

If you want to advertise with us, whether it's your church, your business, private practice like a law firm or medical firm,

or maybe it's just a special event you want to promote, whatever it is, as long as it's compatible with my beliefs,

I would love to help you launch an ad campaign quickly.

So, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line.

Always keep in mind, I never want Iron Trip and Zion Radio listeners to give your own church where you are a

member less money than you normally give to your church on the Lord's Day in order to afford

giving Iron Trip and Zion Radio a financial contribution.

In other words, never cut into the finances you have set aside for blessing your

own local church with a financial gift on the Lord's Day in order to bless Iron

Trip and Zion Radio financially.

Please never do that.

And also, if you're really struggling to survive and make ends meet, wait

until you're back on your feet and more stable financially before you send Iron Trip and Zion Radio a

financial gift.

The Bible is very clear that we are primarily to use the money with which God has blessed us, which is still His money,

to provide for our church and our family.

Providing for Iron Trip and Zion Radio is obviously not a command of God.

But, if you love the show, you don't want it to disappear, and you do have extra money above and beyond your ability to

provide for church and family, you have extra money for benevolent, recreational, and trivial purposes.

Please share some of that money with us if you want us to stick around on the air.

Go to irontripandzionradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now.

Last but not least, if you are not a member of a Christ -honoring, biblically faithful, theologically sound,

doctrinally solid church, like Christ Keystone Church, where my

guest today pastors here in Pennsylvania.

Well, we have extensive lists spanning the globe of faithful churches, and we

have helped many people in the Iron Trip and Zion Radio audience in all parts of the planet Earth find churches, sometimes even

within just a couple of minutes from where they live.

That may be you, too.

So, if you are without a biblically faithful church home, no matter where in the world you live, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail

.com and put, I need a church in the subject line.

That's also the email address where you can submit a question to Jacob Tanner on his book, The Tinker's Progress.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us a first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

And we do have a question from Cindy in Findlay, Ohio, and she

says, Good afternoon, Jacob and Chris.

Since there is not a clear consensus on when this particular event

happened, when do you think, in the story of Pilgrim's Progress, Christian became

saved?

That is an excellent question, and in fact, that's a question that I've been asked a couple of times since

publishing the book.

So, my sort of understanding of this is that

because Bunyan held to this sort of understanding that,

you know, he had almost a progressive experience of salvation, he kind of applied

that to the story of Christian and the Pilgrim's Progress as well.

And what I mean by that is if you read his biography, his autobiography, Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners,

there's a couple of moments where you're in the middle of reading and you can basically go, Aha,

this is where the Lord's grace has finally gripped him and he's been saved.

And then you read a little bit further and Bunyan's like, but that wasn't it yet.

I wasn't saved yet.

And it seems like maybe he's being, he's almost looking too deeply at

himself and not trusting enough in the grace of God.

Now, I think that applies a little bit into the Pilgrim's Progress in that, you know, it's

an allegory.

And so we are at the mercy of the one who wrote the allegory on determining when, in fact, the

character of Christian is saved.

So most people would say, well, salvation occurs the moment the sinner begins to follow Christ, right?

But the problem is that happens right at the beginning of the story, basically, when he is called out of the town

and he still has the burden on his back.

And that burden follows him for quite a while.

So my personal take on this is that Bunyan's intention is for us to understand Christian to be

saved at the very moment that the burden falls off his back.

And I think that that corresponds very well to Bunyan's own experience of when he

believes that he was saved.

So if you read, again, the autobiography of John Bunyan, there's a point where he's reading Martin Luther.

And I mentioned this earlier, but he's reading his epistle to the Romans.

And what's fascinating to me is that Bunyan's own experience just

corresponds so much to my own because I had the same exact experience he did with the same exact writings.

But anyway, Bunyan is reading Martin Luther and he comes across this understanding of

justification by faith alone.

And it just totally transforms his life.

And he describes it as having these chains fall from him, as having the burden

fall from him.

It's the same thing I experienced.

It's the same thing that Christian experiences in the story.

And I think Bunyan's intention is for us to see Christian salvation experience happening

when that burden finally falls, which, of course, correlates to Matthew 11.

When Christ calls us to come to him, for he will carry our burden, for his burden is light and his yoke is

easy.

Well, thank you very much, Cindy, from Findlay, Ohio.

And by the way, I think I forgot to say this to Tony as well from Rockville Center, Long Island.

You have both won, by virtue of your questions being submitted today, a free copy of this

book.

We are addressing the Tinker's Progress by my guest today,

Jacob Tanner.

So make sure that you give us your full mailing addresses and Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service,

CVBBS .com will ship out those books to you.

That's CVBBS .com.

And we thank you for those questions.

Let's see, we have another question that is from

Violetta in Broken Arrow, Oklahoma.

And Violetta says, I remember years ago, I believe on the old Iron Sharpens

Iron radio program when you were still broadcasting out of Long Island, New York.

When you interviewed an expert on the life of John Bunyan, he

said that the buyer needs to beware when searching for copies

of John Bunyan's classic, because there are many different versions available.

And some of them are even heretical and abominable.

Is that true in your guest's opinion?

Yes, I remember that the late Barry Horner, who passed away just about

less than a year ago, I think.

Barry was a friend of mine, and he was a brilliant expert on the life of

John Bunyan and specifically on Pilgrim's Progress.

And I orchestrated a number of conferences where he, for a number

of hours, would go through the Pilgrim's Progress and break down the main

elements of the book and explain it.

And it was utterly fascinating.

But yes, he said that there were even Roman Catholic editions of it, which is obviously the

antithesis of what Bunyan was writing.

But anyway, if you could, you can answer Violetta's question.

So, yeah, that is true.

There are a lot of different copies of the Pilgrim's Progress.

This is kind of one of those things that happens.

Really, you have to watch this with any book that's in the public domain, right?

Because anybody can come along, they can update it, they can modernize it, or they can change it.

And because it's in the public domain, there's really nothing copywriting or trademarking or protecting

anything from happening to it.

It's the same reason why they can take, like, the works of William Shakespeare and turn them into Star Wars, you know?

So, yes, that does happen with the Pilgrim's Progress.

I'm also a stickler for I want to read the original.

I want to read the On a Bridge.

I want to read what the author intended.

So I highly recommend if you're interested in reading the Pilgrim's Progress, and you should if you've never read it,

you should look for one of the editions that is most original to what Bunyan would have wrote.

So you want to go to, say, Banner of Truth would be great.

Chris, I know you already mentioned a few different places where they could get copies from, and I'm pretty sure those are all the original

versions.

Solid -groundishbooks .com.

Solid -groundishbooks .com.

There we go.

Sorry, I couldn't remember.

I was trying to get the plug in there for you.

But, yeah, you want to look for one of those original editions.

Now, that said, I know that some people want the more modernized

edition.

It's not the worst thing in the world if you're going to do that.

But, again, you do want to make sure that it's not one of those, like we were just saying, a Roman Catholic edition or a

completely heretical edition.

So, really, what you want to do is you want to look for if you're not going to read the original versions, you're not

going to go to Solid Ground, you're not going to go to Banner of Truth or something like that, make sure it's coming from a publisher you can

trust.

And that's actually not always the best thing either, right, because not every publisher can be trusted now.

But you want to do the best research that you can do to make sure that what you're about to read isn't just

blatant heresy.

Well, thank you, Violetta.

Excellent question.

I would like you to

basically spell out what Bunyan in

that classic book, The Pilgrim's Progress, emphasized as far as

the conversion experience of a believer.

That he may have had a keen insight into that

is not particularly addressed or portrayed in a

theological work.

This is an allegorical work, but maybe he had an insight

into something and emphasized something that may be unique about his understanding.

Obviously, we're all saved by the same gospel, those of us who are truly saved,

but there are different experiences people have leading up to that point

and also after that point.

But if you could, what was unique in your opinion about Bunyan's work?

So, I know I keep doing this, but I don't think you can really understand The Pilgrim's Progress completely.

You can't truly appreciate it if you don't know something of Bunyan's life.

And I'm also not entirely sure if you can really appreciate Bunyan's life if you haven't

experienced some of these things for yourself.

And this is one of those reasons why I just love Bunyan.

I can relate to what he experienced so well.

Reading him for me is like reading a kindred spirit.

But anyway, Bunyan struggled a great deal with assurance of salvation.

I would go so far as to say he agonized over his sins

and he agonized over trying to figure out how do you get saved and what keeps you saved,

right?

And it wasn't that the gospel wasn't being preached to him.

At this point, he's even inside of a church.

He has heard others speak of the sweetness of knowing Christ and being known by him.

But he is just agonizing over these things.

And in The Pilgrim's Progress, the way that he relays this to us is through not

only the journey that Christian is on but that burden that he's carrying, this heavy burden that's on

his back.

And there's so much that happens in Pilgrim's Progress even in those early chapters.

You have him leaving the city of destruction.

You have him on his way to make this journey by himself, leaving behind family and friends and loved ones.

And all the while, his company is this terrible burden that's on his shoulders, a burden

that he cannot be released from, a burden that he can't save himself from, a burden that's just there.

And the burden is symbolic of our sin, a burden that we can't lift from our own

shoulders.

And so as Christian in the story is making his way ultimately to the celestial city, he's making his way to

Christ, what eventually happens when that burden is finally loosed from his shoulders,

he experiences the freeness of being saved by Christ.

And it's the sort of freeness that we experience in salvation.

When we finally come to the realization, I can't save myself.

I can't wash away my sins.

This burden that I've been carrying, if I think I'm going to get it off my shoulders on my own, I'm horribly

mistaken.

I can't get the burden off on my own.

The only one that can save me, the only one that can ransom me, the only one that can redeem me, the only one that can rescue me is

the Lord Jesus Christ.

And when we come to that realization and we bow our knee to the King of Kings and the Lord of

Lords and we repent of our sins and we trust in him, all of course by the grace of God, we find that that

burden of sin that we were carrying, that heavy load, is suddenly lifted from our shoulders because

Christ, our King, the captain of our salvation, goes and bears all of those sins away to

never again be remembered against us.

And that's the beautiful picture there in the Pilgrim's Progress when that burden falls

from Christian shoulders.

But here's the important thing to keep in mind.

The story doesn't end right then and there.

In fact, what we find is that the life of the Christian is a life of

sanctification and the life of sanctification can often be translated to a life of suffering.

And so there are battles to be had.

There are trials.

There are tribulations.

One of my favorite parts in the story, and this is, by the way, for anybody listening out there and you're like, I have kids and

I want them to read Pilgrim's Progress, but I don't know how to get them excited about it.

Tell them that there's a battle with a monster at some point in the book.

And that seems to sometimes get younger kids excited because there is.

We have Christian battling Apollyon, which is kind of like a stand in for Satan, kind of a monster,

a dragon of sorts.

And this battle, too, is one of those experiences of the Christian life.

And again, this is something Bunyan could relate to.

Before Bunyan was saved, one of the things that God providentially used in his life was

terrible nightmares.

So Bunyan would basically close his eyes and just have these horrible images flash before him.

And he was worried about hell and he was worried about death and he was worried about all of these different things.

And God, by his grace, not only saved Bunyan, but took away all of those fears, all of those

concerns.

And so you can see that in the Pilgrim's Progress, the sort of fears that can attach

themselves to the tribulations that we go through.

Bunyan's own battle against the forces of his day when they told him that he wasn't allowed to

preach, when he was battling really not against flesh and blood, but against spiritual principalities, as the Apostle

Paul says in Ephesians 6.

We see that again in the battle against Apollyon.

We see it in other places, too, in the Pilgrim's Progress.

So Bunyan has this amazing way of not just describing

our initial justification, you know, when the burden falls from our shoulder.

He has this amazing way of explaining sanctification, how we are growing in the grace and knowledge of Christ

and making our way through these tribulations by the grace of God.

And then he's got this great way of explaining, too, glorification, how there's coming a point where one day

we will see God face to face.

And though it does not yet fully appear what we will be, we know that in that moment we will be transformed and we will be

like him.

And so that moment of glorification, when we're standing resurrected upon the new earth with our sovereign

Lord and Savior, makes all of these other things, all of the sanctifying,

suffering, tribulation process, it makes all of it worth it.

And Bunyan's just got this great way of explaining it throughout the entire story.

Excellent.

By the way, did any of the—to your

knowledge—any of the alleviation of this heavy

weight of doubt over his salvation come from his

reading of Martin Luther?

Because, obviously, anybody who knows anything about Luther's life prior to his conversion

as a Roman Catholic monk, Franciscan monk—actually, he was

an Augustinian monk— he even

tried to appease God by self -flagellation.

You know, he was whipping himself.

I mean, he was tormented by that idea until he really discovered salvation

by grace alone, through faith alone, and Christ alone, to the glory of God alone.

And do you know if that whole story of Luther's background may have had a great

positive influence on John Bunyan?

It did.

And, in fact, that's what I was saying earlier, you know, finding in Bunyan a kindred spirit.

That was my experience as well.

I, like Bunyan, struggled a great deal with assurance of salvation.

And it was Martin Luther and his own testimony of coming to understand Romans 117, that the just

shall live by faith, that for me—I can remember the moment clearly.

I was listening to an audiobook at the time I was in Bible school—unaccredited Bible school, but I

was in Bible school.

I was working a part -time job.

I was also pastoring.

I was 20 years old.

So, I mean, so many different things going on.

And what's amazing is, at this point, I was basically already a Calvinist.

I just couldn't—there were a few final puzzle pieces I just couldn't quite square together.

I couldn't fit it all together.

And I remember sitting there in a cubicle one day, listening to this biography of Luther.

And it switched over to Martin Luther talking about his experience with Romans 117 and

how he came to understand the just shall live by faith.

And it's this great line where Luther's saying, and finally I understood that it's not my works.

It's nothing I bring to the table.

It's all of grace.

It's all of God.

And I remember sitting there in the cubicle, and I felt what I had read in The Pilgrim's Progress.

It felt like those burdens that I had been carrying just fell from my shoulders.

It felt like they finally went away.

And it was so freeing to know that, yeah, I'm saved by grace, by faith, in Christ

alone.

It's not my works at all.

And Bunyan had that same experience.

So, yes, it's amazing also that when Bunyan writes about this in his own

autobiography—and I have a section about this in the biography that I did as well— he writes of

Luther being this ancient man.

He says that he was looking for a really old writer to read.

He wanted to find somebody really old who he thought would be able to identify with the same issues that he was going

through.

And I thought to myself when I read that a number of years ago, like, man, Luther was really less than

100 years before you, and you're saying he's ancient, he's old.

And here I am, you know, 500 years later, still benefiting from Luther, 400 years later benefiting from Bunyan.

There's just something beautiful about that, that God uses these things to

speak to saints centuries after they were originally written.

I don't know, it's just glorious to me that the Lord is able to use these things.

Oh, biblical truth is timeless, and it's just amazing to me, like

reading Puritan paperbacks published by Banner of Truth, for instance.

You're reading these Puritans, and except for the style

of the English language in which they are writing, you would think you are reading

a critique of a modern -day televangelist's heresies.

Your mind is blown away when you see the relevance, the contemporary relevance of

these things that were written centuries ago.

That's right.

Yeah, it's fascinating too.

I mean, not even with just the Puritans, right?

Luther we already brought up, but if you were to pick up, I often recommend people try reading Calvin's

Institutes, which seems to be one of those books that just scares people because it's big, admittedly, it's a big book.

Two volumes.

But it's worth it.

It is two volumes.

Well, you can get a one -volume set, which has really small prints.

I wouldn't recommend that one.

Do the two -volume set, unless you're really hard -pressed for cash, in which case I think the one -volume set is much cheaper.

But anyway, it's really not that difficult to read, and I think people are just scared away when they

see, first of all, the age of these works and the length of these works.

We live in an age of soundbites and snippets, right?

We've got TikTok now.

Just scroll through really quick.

Five -second videos.

We're so used to the, what is the Twitter cap now?

It's not 180 characters.

Is it like 360 or it doesn't even matter anymore?

I don't know.

But for years, people were used to having these really small soundbites or these really short

sentences, not well -written sentences, by the way, just really short

sentences from people about things that really didn't matter.

And so we've lost the ability to really think, to contemplate, and to

seriously read.

It's an art to be able to do that, and we've lost it.

And it's one of those things I really want to see us recover within the Church and within the West.

Okay, we've got a listener named Reinhart in Rochester Hills, Michigan.

And Reinhart says, Have you ever read the criticisms of the

Reformed Baptist historian Michael Haken against Pilgrim's Progress?

He appears to greatly admire and esteem and love John Bunyan, but despises the

Pilgrim's Progress.

Have you ever read those criticisms or had any interaction with Michael Haken on that

issue?

Yeah, I've interviewed Michael Haken on the show.

I love Michael.

I've never discussed that with him, but I was actually shocked a couple of years ago.

He was the only Christian I've ever heard being very severely

critical of the Pilgrim's Progress.

Are you aware of this?

I am not, no.

That's interesting, though.

Okay, so you wouldn't have any way to answer that.

No, I don't, but that is interesting.

That's the first time I've heard that.

Yeah, that's—well, just to let you know, Reinhart, I know that one of

the reasons for that is that Michael hates allegories, but I don't

recall any further information about that.

But thank you, Reinhart, and you have also won a free copy of the book that we are

addressing today, The Tinker's Progress, by my guest, Jacob Tanner.

So please give us your full name and your full address there in

Rochester Hills, Michigan, so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs

.com, can ship that book out to you.

And by the way, we want to thank our friends at Christian Focus Publications

for providing us with these free copies of The Tinker's Progress that we have been giving away today.

And you can find out more about many other publications that they have brought into print

at christianfocus .com, christianfocus .com.

But I would ask you, when you find what you like, that you want to order,

purchase it from cvbbs .com here in the United States, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service,

cvbbs .com, because they carry much of the inventory of Christian

Focus Publications.

And if they don't have it, they will order it for you very quickly.

And since cvbbs .com is one of our advertisers, that will benefit us, and it will also

benefit Christian Focus Publications anyway, since the books will be ultimately ordered from them.

But thank you for the excellent question, Reinhart.

And we are going to our final break right now.

If you want to ask a question of your own, submit it to chrisorensen at gmail .com.

We'll be right back.

Don't go away.

James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here.

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron

Sharpens Iron Radio financially.

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives

to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work

of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And of course, the end of which we strive is the glory of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes,

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Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

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always.

I'm Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

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It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church

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I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing

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Or call 631 -696 -5711.

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Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa

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Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John

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In the film Chariots of Fire, the Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt God's

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He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God.

I sense that same God -given pleasure when ministering the Word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and

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That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a Savior who died for sinners,

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God bless you.

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Chris Arnzen here, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I strongly recommend a church I've been recommending as far back as the 1980s, Grace

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Tell Pastor Dunn you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Welcome back.

And folks, I also want to remind you that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is paid for in part by

my very dear longtime friend Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law of the law

firm of Buttafuoco and Associates.

If you are the victim of a very serious personal injury or medical malpractice anywhere in the

United States, please call Dan at Buttafuoco and Associates at 1 -800 -NOW

-HURT, 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, or visit the website 1 -800 -NOW -HURT

.com, 1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com.

Please make it very crystal clear to anyone with whom you speak at Dan

Buttafuoco's law firm that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

We're now back with Jacob Tanner.

And we have a listener in Barnstead, New

Hampshire, Miguel.

Miguel says, I don't see much written regarding Bunyan's military service.

Having served in the military myself, I always find it interesting to read about the experiences of

Christians in service.

What have you found in your research beyond what he may have mentioned in Grace Abounding?

So I actually do have a section of Bunyan's time in the military in the biography.

What's interesting is that the reason why we don't read very much about it is because he did not write

very much about it himself.

However, there is another allegorical work that Bunyan wrote that does not seem to get as much attention

as The Pilgrim's Progress, and that is The Holy War.

And of course, it's different than the war that he was in.

But it does seem that you can read a little bit of that and get at least some idea of the conflict in which he was engaged.

Another interesting tidbit about that is that Bunyan did have what would have been, in a

roundabout way, a near -death experience that the Lord graciously kept him from while he was serving in the

military.

And so it's a fascinating thing that even there, God was preparing

Bunyan for his later life as a pastor, as a Christian, as an author,

as a writer.

But for whatever reason, Bunyan does not write about his time very much

while he was serving in the military, and there's various factors for why that may have been.

But there's really just not that much to go off of.

You know, that is the case with many veterans.

I have heard from the family and loved

ones of vets, some of them who have been involved in very

heroic activities on the battlefield where they don't want to bring it up.

They just want to keep it to themselves and so on.

And so who knows what the underlying reason is for Bunyan's silence on that issue or

relative silence.

Well, in the time that we have left, before I go to any other listener question, if I have time to

squeeze one or two more in, I'd like you to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and

minds of our listeners today regarding your book, The Tinkerer's Progress.

I think if there's one takeaway for the listeners to take, is that Bunyan

is worth reading today.

If we want to raise up more Christian leaders like, say, Charles Spurgeon, for example, then what we're going to need is

more of Bunyan, not less of John Bunyan.

To read Charles Spurgeon is to read John Bunyan.

And that has been true, I think, of the majority of the great church leaders who have come after John

Bunyan.

Not all of them, but a good portion of them have been highly influenced by Bunyan.

And I mean more than just The Pilgrim's Progress, right?

I think that's a great starting point for John Bunyan, but I think he has a lot to offer to the church at

large.

And so I've been beating this possibly dead horse at this point for quite a while,

but I have some favorite authors, right?

And when it comes to Christian authors, I love, for example, C .S. Lewis.

But when it comes to C .S. Lewis, you always have to offer that caveat that he was good on a lot of issues,

but there are some theological issues that he gets wrong.

He's extremely helpful in so many things.

But he was an Anglo -Catholic from what I understand.

Yep.

And so we could look at Lewis and say, you know, he's great, but here are the caveats.

You could look at a fictional writer like J .R .R. Tolkien and say he's great.

Read Lord of the Rings.

It's wonderful.

But he was Roman Catholic.

So, you know, there's a lot there to unpack.

But you don't have to offer those same sort of warnings when it comes to John Bunyan.

You can disagree with him all you want, and that's fine.

But at least you're disagreeing with somebody who, you know, understands the fundamental truths of the gospel

and the Christian life.

And I would argue, and this is all purely my opinion, but I would argue

that Bunyan is just as good of a writer, if not sometimes even better, than C .S. Lewis

and Tolkien, which are two of my favorite authors.

So I'm saying that to say he is worth reading today because he's an excellent writer,

but he's especially worth reading today because he was an amazing Christian.

Not because he was amazing, but because God's grace abounded in his life.

And so we need Bunyan.

We need to read him today.

Amen.

Well, I do want to make sure that our listeners have the

websites relevant to you and your ministry.

First of all, don't forget about the website for Christ

Keystone Church, where my guest ministers here in

Pennsylvania.

And what was the city again in Pennsylvania?

Middleburg.

Middleburg, that's right.

Go to ChristKeystoneChurch .org, ChristKeystoneChurch

.org.

And also, to find out more about The Tinkerer's Progress, you can go to ChristianFocus

.com, ChristianFocus .com, the publisher of this book that was generous

enough to provide us with the giveaway copies for our listeners who submitted questions today.

And don't forget that I would prefer, however, that you order the book from our advertisers,

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com, CVBBS .com.

Christian Focus does not lose out in any way, shape, or form.

That's right.

If you order through CVBBS .com, and you'll also be helping Iron Trip and Zion Radio, since CVBBS

.com is one of our largest financial supporters of this program.

And I also do not want any of you to forget about the

next free biannual Iron Trip and Zion Radio Pastor's Luncheon featuring keynote speaker

Dr. Joel Beeky.

Everything is absolutely free, including a heavy sack of free brand new books provided by

and donated by major Christian publishers all over the United States and the United Kingdom that I have personally

selected for the men attending.

If you'd like to register for this free event, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put Pastor's Luncheon in the subject line.

And by the way, I don't think I remembered to tell Miguel the good news, our last

listener who submitted a question today, that you have also won a free copy

of The Tinkerer's Progress, so make sure you send us your full address in Barnstead, New

Hampshire.

Jacob, it was an absolutely joy interviewing you again, and I look forward to many future returns to this

program by you.

Yeah, thank you, Chris.

I'm also looking forward to seeing you face to face at the Iron Trip and Zion Radio Pastor's Luncheon on June

6th.

I want to thank everybody who listened, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a

far greater Savior than you are a sinner.

Amen.