August 3, 2005

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

Critiquing Catholic Answers and the Problem of Unchanging Apologetics

And good morning, welcome to the dividing line I will stop saying good morning because the Congress has now passed an extension of this silly playing with your clock stuff. So we'll only be in the now.

We'll only be in the mountain time zone like what three months out of the year or some dumb thing like that like you know Freedoms are always in the greatest danger when those people are meeting. When those people get together back there, it's and it's a wacky city.

It really is. Have you ever driven in Washington DC? My dad is a saint, but I remember Washington DC pretty much put him over the edge. I remember him Yelling very loudly going I can see where I want to go.

The roads just don't let you go Where do you want to go? He made some comment about whoever laid out Washington DC was clearly on some early form of narcotic Addiction or something like that. Anyway, I What did that have to oh, it's my constant complaint about people who are playing with time and clocks and stuff like that.

So for most of you, it's it's afternoon unless you're in California or something. And then most people in California don't know what time it is. Anyways, so Anyhow, welcome to the dividing line got some clips to play today on the various and sundry subjects I was I found I used to have a Program called stream box ripper, which would convert between the various Codecs, you know mp3 and it it would convert real audio well, I guess real audio got upset about that and so they they stopped being able to make that and Then they changed the codec and stuff and so, you know converting real audio files over to mp3 or wave is It can be a very long process.

Well last night somebody in channel put a URL into it was called DB. What was it called? DB amp something anyway, I download the thing and I think it's gonna be like $14 eventually, but It's it converts real audio.

And so that made it a whole lot easier to pull down Catholic answers stuff again and Open it up and and Utilize it in that fashion and convert to mp3 and stuff like that. So I've got two clips here from from Catholic answers and then we also have material to look at from Brother Davis you may recall we were looking at dr. Davis's Comments on the subject of Calvinism and we had some more material to look at there plenty of it to look at in fact and so starting though with Tim Staples.

Tim Staples has started to do as our takeover some of the Catholic answers live responsibilities. Jimmy Akin had been doing almost all of that and now they're sort of splitting it up and you know Tim's just People people not nothing Tim Tim's still got a lot of a lot of Pentecostal in him and He's always excited about what he says what amazes me though about you know, folks folks, you know folks listen.

What amazes me though is the fact that I don't see Especially Catholic answers that this this this seems to be endemic to them primarily. They don't seem to think that there can be any challenge to what they're saying.

And so they don't take the time to listen what anybody else is saying and they don't take the time to improve their apologetic presentation in light of.

The.

Responses that are offered to them and so they just keep repeating the same old things over and over and over again without any indication that They are listening to what others are saying and and that they are improving Their apologetic methodology by providing meaningful in-depth responses to those objections and so Listening to To Catholic answers you you basically if you listen to a call-in program today.

You're hearing the same program that you heard ten years ago. Now we may be talking about the same things. We were talking about ten years ago, but hopefully with a much Broader spectrum of experience.

The debates we've done I mean look at the the breadth of the of the topics that we have addressed and certainly Knowing what people have said in response when they even bother. The odd thing is most people don't even bother To even attempt to provide a response, you know Catholic answers for a while.

How many how many articles they do in this rock magazine maybe three? Attempting to respond to I think maybe grand total a page and a half with Roman Catholic controversy I think they respond to about a page and a half and they didn't do those.

Well, we respond to them on our own website and demonstrate where they were in error, so I Don't understand that I would think that if you're you know again really focused upon the issues of truth and honoring truth that It would just be natural to be constantly, you know honing your skills studying new things reading new things.

And listening to what people are saying in response. That doesn't seem to be the case there everybody I guess I'm I'm probably pretty odd this first caller.

Asks.

Tim Staples about tradition and I don't know about you. I you know, I know that you know, I've discussed this issue with Tim Staples. We debated solo scripture and Fullerton and what was that 96? I think it was that's where the guy standing there in line Just yelled out the Eucharist as if that was somehow everybody starts clapping.

Whoo. Yeah I'm refuted. That does it. There you go and. So anyways, we've gone over this stuff and I just get the feeling that when this guy calls you just hear something in Tim's voice and. The response is well, the response is just classic circular argumentation and and the the Absolute demonstration of the fact that I have been right from the beginning and I continue to be right to this day.

That Roman Catholics who are consistent with their own epistemology with their own claims of infallibility Roman Catholics believe in sola Ecclesia now. Tim Staples says no. But listen to this response and you tell me that this isn't.

Sola Ecclesia clearly demonstrated it into it. All right. First up. We are going to start with David in Pelham, New York today. Hello David. I don't yeah. Hi Tim. Hey, how are you David? I'm pretty good.

Yeah, it's sort of great to speak with you because When I've got I'm done with you I'll probably listen to Hank Henegraaff, okay, great. We'll tell Hank that I'm waiting for the invitation to be back on the broadcaster.

It's been a while. That's about.

Tradition hat. Well, I may stop that just for a moment. Tim Staples has only been on the Bible Answer Man twice and both times he was on with me. So I didn't hear him saying I'm waiting to be invited back up the Bible Answer Man with James White.

I am certain that Tim Staples would love to be on BAM by himself. He would he would truly truly enjoy that no clue what I meant.

Gotcha, and I told James thinking that and he didn't laugh but it's like Right. Oh, my question is what are the components of the Catholic tradition? Where could I find it? Right? Well, uh, here's a good rule of thumb to use and a quick way You can respond to folks who ask this question because if I had a fellow say one time, you know Give me Catholic church.

I want it all written out. Every bit of Catholic tradition, right? Well, actually Tradition is that which was not written. So obviously you're not going to have everything written out in our tradition.

But here's the the quick thing that will help folks to clarify things. When we're speaking of scripture and tradition with a big P we are talking about the revelation of Almighty God that he gave us once and for all as Jude chapter 1 verse 3 says That the gospel has been once for all declared to the Saints there st Jude exhorts us to defend that faith to contend or to earnestly contend for for the faith Which was once for all delivered to the Saints.

So the tradition That the Word of God has once for all been delivered to us in the first century. There are no new Traditions in that sense with a you know, some will say with the big P That is part of the revelation or the Word of God that is unchangeable given once for all now.

Tradition is also used in the sense of the development of our understanding of the revelation that we have. So in that sense, you know, you will hear referred to Developments in our understanding as our Catholic tradition and that's certainly valid but that doesn't mean a new Revelation it means a penetration into the revelation that we have now when you say, okay How do I know where do I get the components of well the same way?

We know what the written tradition is and I like to Use written tradition and the oral tradition because that's really how st. Paul does it in 2nd Thessalonians 2 15. He says stand fast in the tradition.

You have been taught either by word or written epistle. So according to st. Paul the tradition has these two components the written and the oral so.

Let me just stop it right there and just once again point out. If you've read These the second book that I wrote the first actually was originally the fatal flaw was one book that had all these appendices in the back that dealt with particular issues and.

The appendices got as big as the actual text the book and so it became a separate book called answers to Catholic claims. That was the book that came out. The fatal flaw came out. We sent a Catholic answers.

Geriatrics contacted us arranged the first debate in in Long Long Beach in Was it August August of 1990. I believe was when we had that first debate then right at that time. In fact, we brought some of the first ones with us To the debate there my wife and I had this little corner of a table, you know Catholic answers had all these tables laid out.

We had these little corner of a table in the two of us called answers to Catholic claims. And if you've read that or if you've read the Roman Catholic controversy or If you've listened to the debates going back who knows how far now You have heard these issues addressed responded to the exegesis of second Thessalonians 2 15 addressed repeatedly and.

Yet.

You know if if I was in their shoes and I had only certain texts and I knew that clear exegetical Argumentation had been presented that demonstrates that my use those texts is completely and totally inaccurate.

I Could not open my mouth about it any longer without providing a response, but that isn't the case when listening to Roman Catholic apologists. You saw in the blog just what last month I Wrote a series in response to Apollonio Latar.

I've addressed for example that the fact that Roman Catholic the Roman Catholic apologetics the pop apologists demonstrate their utter bankruptcy in meaningful material by posting 15 second Clips of one question and a cross-examination on the internet as if that somehow means something and I pointed out and you want to see it just a complete Self-destruction look at what Apollonio Latar does with second Thessalonians 2 15.

He just makes these wild assertions and Then says and we don't have to show you what tradition is man. You know that kind of stuff and so Here we go again Tim Staples has heard responses To this passage that he's not addressing here.

And if I knew that there is a strong response based upon the text to a text that I've kept using over and over and Over again, I'd have to say something about it, but they they don't somehow have the same compunctions that I do.

In regards to that so and the same way we know what the components of the written tradition are. How?

Through the church there, there's sola ecclesia. How do you know what the components of the written tradition are well the church canonized scripture? So how do you know what the oral the? Unwritten elements the tradition are through the church.

So what have I said over and over and over again if Rome says we infallibly determine the extent the content the table of contents of the written tradition and We infallibly interpret what it means when we want to and if we determine the extent The definition the table of contents of the oral tradition and What it means which is how you get the dogmatic? definitions of papal infallibility in the Marian dogmas in these past centuries if You define all that stuff What does that mean?

How can the one that defines the extent and meaning of the written scriptures and the extent and meaning of the oral tradition? Be under the authority of those things. It's not possible. It can't be done if you define those things you can't be corrected by those things.

Can you if you say that you're infallible in your definition interpretation of them? How can they then correct you? Logically it can't be done. It's not possible. That's sola ecclesia. Now when these folks try to respond to that statement, what do they do?

They they don't respond to what I said, they don't respond to the argumentation. Is it what that's that's just misrepresent us. We've never said that I haven't said that you said that I said it is the logical necessary conclusion of your claims.

And I just don't get folks that are going to respond to that on any any meaningful level it's just let's try to ignore that let's let's let's move on and Ignore that man over there.

Synods of Rome hippo Carthage finally Florence and of course Trent. It is only through these councils that we know what the written tradition is or what the Components of sacred scripture are. Well in the same way the only way we know what the tradition is That is the Word of God that was given once for all in the first century is by that same church.

The same way We know what the written tradition is is the way we know what the oral tradition is as well. And that's by tuning in to the magisterium of the church. Which is that gift given by Jesus Christ in the first century to safeguard.

The written and oral traditions. Now of course as soon as as soon as you hear someone say that. Someone like myself goes Wow. First century church. Didn't have any Popes. There was a plurality of elders in Rome.

There wasn't just one person. It didn't look to the Bishop of Rome as the final authority in all things. And so you don't have Popes. You don't have Archbishops. You don't have Cardinals. You don't even have a.

A.

Either celibate or sacramental or ordained priesthood class as Rome has today and. So how can you have this? Magisterium. I had a Roman Catholic right to the Phoenix reform Baptist Church. You've seemed for some reason somewhat out of sorts at first anyways that I responded.

If you write to the Phoenix reform Baptist Church, I might end up I might not. I don't know if it's something It's relevant to me that might might happen I don't know, but it was given to me to respond to and so I responded to and it was on this issue of priesthood and the the offices of the church because on our website it gives our understanding of the two offices of the church the elder and the deacon and so on and so forth and so I I just in Dealing with this this particular issue.

I just pointed out Let's look at the biblical materials and I was referred to a article by James Aiken. I'm going to Jimmy Aiken. Sorry, I don't know if it was Jimmy or James when he wrote it. He did some debate with someone.

I don't know who it was on the subject of the priesthood and Having debated the priesthood against Mitch Pacwa. I was very interested to read Aiken's comments and I was just amazed at his use of English dictionaries to try to come up with Presbyter meaning priest there was a perfectly good Greek term in the Greek New Testament for priest and it's not Presbyter and that's not what they talked about and instead of allowing the the Pauline usage where he uses Presbyter and Episcopal sin in Interchangeable formats and demonstrating that they're they're the same thing in his thinking rather than defying the term.

That way you you go to an English dictionary the old English Presbyter became priest this somehow does something this this proves Something as to what the Bible means just horrific argumentation very similar To the to the argumentation you get when you point out that there is no difference between Latria and Dulia.

Functionally in in the old in the basics the foundations of the original languages of the Old and New Testaments. And we'll get to that in a second because that's the second clip. We're gonna play from Tim Staples here, so.

You know.

There was no magisterium. The way that the vast majority of Staples audience is going to hear him. They think of what they saw just a few months ago. You know the door is opening and all the all the Cardinals come out and all that didn't exist wasn't there.

So this alleged gift developed over time too. But if it's the means by which to protect this oral tradition that they refuse to show us they can't show it to us. They they they you know at least latires open up to say we don't have to show it to you, and we're not going to.

If.

It developed over time then who was protecting this alleged stuff before it actually developed the point where could do anything.

That's a question you'd like to ask and so when you read your catechism. You are reading the components of our Catholic tradition as it is authoritatively interpreted by the church. So when you read about the hypostatic Union or about the Trinity and the developments in our Understanding of the Trinity the nature of God as he revealed himself father son and Holy Spirit you are reading components of our tradition that comes from both Scripture and the oral tradition.

All right. Hopefully that'll be helpful for you. That's something else or I could ask James.

I'll just go ahead and stop it there because it where time is going by here, and we have some some others moving down just later on in the program to a question on Latria and Dulia.

Worship, Honor, and the Latria/Dulia Distinction

Got a I need your help with a simple apologetics 101 question I'm not sure. I handled very well recently talking with one of my Protestant friends. He was trotting Catholics for worshiping Mary and I said look we don't worship Mary.

You know we honor her we pray to her we ask her intercession with our Lord Jesus Christ. And yes, you said oh there you go again. You're praying to Mary. You said you're putting her on the same level as as Jesus, and so I was struggling a little bit with you know the correct Interpretation or what our definition of what we mean by saying that we pray to.

Right right. Looking for your help on that.

Sure, I think a good start. You can you can direct your friend now. Let me stop it right there now.

Tim Staples now works at Catholic answers, okay, I would assume I Could be wrong about this, but but I would assume That part of what you do when you work in an apologetics ministry because I I work at one is You are Trying as best you can to pay attention to developments in your field.

That's one of the reasons. I spend as much time as I do in our chat channel is I get a lot of information from from people who are surfing the net and they're saying hey Did you see this and they'll post a URL and I go.

I didn't. Wow that's interesting this morning as someone sent me a URL to a New a book by an evangelical scholar called is the Reformation over. Well, I'm getting the book and we're gonna review it. We're gonna discuss it.

Why. Cuz that's directly relevant to what we do and I have an entire John dominant cross in library now and in a Marcus Borg section and and. Because you're gonna be dealing with those folks if you're gonna be debating those folks.

You've got to know what they're saying right and. So a debate took place between myself and Patrick Madrid now. Patrick Madrid is not unknown at Catholic answers. He's done Programs at Catholic answers.

He was the vice president there for many many years and so you would think.

That.

What took place in that debate and the Argumentation that was put forward in the discussions and the fact that there were some responses that Patrick Madrid gave that were Very very troubling. Every time he was pressed on the biblical commands regarding idolatry He would come up with this Relativistic answer.

Well, the reason that the the people of Israel were told not to do that with images Is because they were prone to idolatry in a way that we aren't today and you just go at. What we're not prone to idolatry in the way they were back then.

Where where did that come from? And when you you quote from an early council a long before and I see a two. That said the same things about images. Well in that area they had this this proclivity to to idolatry and so that was good at the time.

But that that doesn't mean anything for us today and you just go. But but how can you say that? Because if you follow the same logic, then you can say that the law against homosexuality Was only because they had a proclivity toward it at that time and if we don't have a proclivity toward it now.

Then it's no longer relevant, right? Just it completely shreds the the moral law of God and So you would think that they would listen to that and go. That that might not be the best way to go. Let's come up with something else.

Let's come up with a new way of doing this. And so here comes a question. We've addressed this question. We've addressed it numerous times. Has there been any development? Has there been any improvement?

Has there been any?

Even.

Time invested in Finding out what other people are saying and how to Respond. The answer you probably can guess for yourself is.

Nope to look at a Webster's dictionary. The word pray. In fact, I have at home in my office. Anyway, a massive one of those big old dictionaries of Unabridged that you can hit somebody over the head and kill them.

What you know those those huge things. And if you look up the word prayer you discover that prayer does not have one Meaning. In other words prayer does not only mean.

Communication with God. Now, let's let's stop right there. Hopefully everybody in this audience is sitting there going. You've got to be kidding. You've got to be kidding. The objection raised this Roman Catholic was from a Protestant probably an evangelical president.

Let's hope a conservative Evangelical Protestant and that would mean his objection is based upon what? It's based upon the biblical definition of prayer. Not Webster's definition of prayer. When you hear someone Responding to a biblical definition by running to Webster's you just ran to someone who hasn't a clue how to do exegesis.

They are Completely out of the ballpark on this one and. Yet, how many times? Do I hear the leading Roman Catholic apologists utilizing this kind of horrific.

Argumentation.

It's just amazing. That involves the worship of God. The word prayer also means making an entreaty between rational persons. For example.

I.

Now listen to how this works. I've Discovered this over the years. This is how Catholic answers works. This is how the Catholic apologists work when you are making a really bad point. When you really don't have anything you've got no ammunition your gun.

Okay, you're just pulling the trigger is going click click click click because there's nothing in there. What you do is tell a nice story. That really works. Let's face it folks. It's it really really works.

To try for a lot of folks all you got to do is tell a story and They'll let you slide on they'll let you go and. That's that's what that's what happens here. You know when when for years even before we did the first debate Catholic answers.

We talked about this back when when Carl Keating was still very involved in going around speaking and stuff. They would do the on the intercession thing. When you'd make the objection that you don't need an intercessor with Christ and so on so G is their only intercessor.

Well, well, would you pray for me? You still see this and I saw it just recently just a couple weeks ago on the Catholic answers forums. Would you pray for me and then you go? Well, yeah. Well, you just said that you shouldn't have anyone intercede, but you're praying for me.

See this horrific argument as if my praying for somebody is is parallel to Christ intercession for someone they'll use they'll they'll do these little ploys and Tell a story we'll tell a story then we'll take a break right after I use this exact.

I think I've done this before with you Jerry here on the broadcast that when I was in my teen years I you know, I wasn't always the nicest kid and we won't talk about that. But if you get a summons to appear in court It actually reads at least in Fairfax County, Virginia.

It reads on the top that the County of Fairfax praised thee to appear in court on such-and-such day. Now, I don't think anybody would say that the County of Fairfax in Virginia was worshiping Tim Staples and say we worship you Tim.

Absolutely amazing. So you use an old English usage of the term and Then you read it back into something was written in Greek in a completely different culture 2 ,000 years earlier as if somehow. You're gonna fool.

Enough people into thinking that you actually are making a cogent argument. We'll come back with the rest of Tim Staples answer right after this.

Try to save your soul from death. It's all works righteousness, you know. And a man you bet your grace myself. Some religious place by weeping hard on your face. Is the Bible true. Never before in history has the authority and inspiration of the holy scriptures been so viciously attacked by those outside the pale of orthodoxy and within the walls of traditional evangelicalism itself.

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Attempting to save my eardrums I Was sitting there. If you know, it's really loud in my headphones, it's really loud then then it's can't. And I am now permanently damaged. Mm-hmm. Oh, well That's sure what part of too loud is is that I misspell it.

I don't understand. Anyways, we're trying to listen to now I'm gonna have to have someone come in and sign language what Staples is saying here because I can't can't hear it anymore. I listen to Tim Staples who is is.

Well, well Steve can't brought it back up. Let me tell you that. Mm-hmm. Yeah we're trying to listen to what Tim Staples saying here about Veneration of Mary and the Saints and here comes the Latria.

Julia distinction come to know. They were saying get over here or we're gonna arrest you, you know. The point is we used to say it in Old English, you know pray tell or I pray thee my lord. The British will still use that kind of language.

So when we talk about prayer to Mary and prayer to God We are talking about essentially different Contexts because when we pray to God we attach to that prayer what we call as Catholics Latria or worship that is do God alone.

When we pray to Mary we attach to that prayer Julia or honor the honor that is due to great men and women. And in the body of Christ, of course Mary Deserves a unique honor. Why. Well Luke chapter 1 verse 48 We have a prophecy from the lips of Mary herself all generations shall call me blessed.

And by the way some Biblical scholars believe that Mary may well have been referring back to Psalm 45 17 now.

Let's stop right there because first of all, we've Documented in print it's in the Roman Catholic controversy. It's in answers to Catholic claims. It's in debates that we've done that the distinction made between Latria and Julia founders upon an examination of the underlying terms used in both the Old and New Testaments that when you trace them back to the Commandments the very commandments that this distinction is used to get around in The Old Testament that the underlying Hebrew terms that are used do not Substantiate the distinction that is made in formal Roman Catholic dogmatics.

Demonstrating that it is Roman Catholic dogma that is superior to the words the scriptures themselves. For Roman Catholics, but as my argument was against Patrick Madrid God is going to judge what is and what is not idolatry based upon what his word says.

Not based upon what the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church says and when the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church contradicts what God's Word says so much the worse for the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church and For those who follow the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church, that's a very bad thing but now we have a Situation here where where Tim is going to present very briefly this concept of a citation from eyes from Psalm 45 and apply it to Mary.

Now what's interesting here is Psalm 45 is quoted in the New Testament. It's quoted in Hebrews chapter 1 and this is the marriage psalm. It's a psalm about the marriage of the king of Israel to a foreign queen if you read the entirety of the section You will see that it's talking to this queen and how you know She's come from a far land and she's brought her maids with her and and all the rest of these things and it's about This this queen that is marrying the king and You would think if the king is In Hebrews 1 identified with Christ that if you're going to find any fulfillment for Isaiah 45 What would it be.

Who is who is Christ's spouse? Well the church that would that and that was picked up in early centuries as Parallel to Isaiah 45 and the queen that is there. But what has happened since then well the development of Marian dogma.

Which and you might want to take a look at this Psalm 45 of course is a is a famous Messianic text that is actually quoted in Hebrews chapter 1 verses 8 and 9. The early part part of Psalm 45 refers to Christ.

But the second part of Psalm 45 is a less known. Half of this psalm that refers over and over again to Mary prophetically. And in verse 17 It says I will cause your name to be celebrated in all generations.

Does that sound familiar? I will cause your name to be celebrated in all generations. Therefore the people's will praise you forever and ever. Amen. Now that's referring to a woman and saying the people will praise you.

Actually it's referring to a queen.

Marrying the king.

Let's keep things straight here. I know in the Pentecostal Church. I came from. If somebody said we're gonna praise Mary. They would have called me a heretic and you that's of the devil brother and as they well probably should have.

But when we talk about This particular text the numeric status is. Therefore the people's will give you thanks forever and ever.

And.

But it can be translated to to praise. And in what context? The context of the Queen and the King and the honor that was given to them as The royal court in that particular context. That isn't using the terms that are related to of course Worship and to honor Latria Dulia and things like that.

Be nice so they could track down some references were actually relevant there.

But anyway, you don't praise anybody, but God will guess what the scripture says. Mary will be praised in all generations.

Which does that mean she'll be prayed to? Notice the huge gaps in logic. They're just part and parcel of the Marian dogmas. They've just been covered over primarily with with emotional filler. I sort of like the stuff that slipped on the shuttle.

You know the little the stuff that they between that the tiles the silicon stuff. That you just sort of hope that all the dedication and the emotion will fill in these massive.

Gaps that exist in the actual argumentation. There's nothing wrong with that if we understand. We're using that language in the context of which Psalms uses it. We are praising a great woman of faith.

Just as you know st. Paul tells us in 1st Timothy 517 to give double honor to the teaching elders or.