July 11, 2017 Show with Josh Buice on “Would Jesus Bake a Cake for a Same-Sex Wedding?” AND “A Response to Anti-Calvinists in the Southern Baptist Convention”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host Chris Arnton. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnton, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 11th day of July 2017.

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I'm delighted to have back on the program someone who has become one of my favorite guests.

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That's Pastor Josh Bice of Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia.

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He is a blogger at deliveredbygrace .com and he is the director of the annual

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G3 conference that is coming up in January where I will be,

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God willing, with another exhibitor's booth and I'm very excited about that and we'll be talking more about that.

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And today we are addressing two topics with Pastor Josh. The first hour we are addressing would

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Jesus bake a cake for a same -sex wedding? And the second hour we plan to address a response to anti -Calvinists in the

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Southern Baptist Convention. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Pastor Josh Bice.

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Glad to be with you, Chris. And in studio with me again is my co -host, the Reverend Buzz Taylor.

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And I'm glad to be here for what sounds like a very interesting conversation coming up. And I'd like to let our listeners know right away the email address for questions.

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If you have questions for Pastor Bice on these issues, our email address is

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ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

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USA. With a topic like this or like these, I could understand why someone may have an occasion for preferring to remain anonymous.

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So if it's about a personal and private matter involving either of these issues that we're discussing today, we will grant your request to remain anonymous if that is your wish.

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But if it is not about a personal and private matter, please give us at least your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

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And Pastor Josh, before we go into the subjects at hand, for those of our listeners who are discovering you for the first time, because I have to tell you,

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Pastor Josh, we have new listeners contacting me now nearly every single day.

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It's really exciting to see what's going on here with Iron Trump and Zire. That's very encouraging. But for those of our listeners who have not yet heard about you, tell our listeners about Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia.

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Sure, I'd be happy to. We are a local autonomous Baptist church located just west of Atlanta, Georgia, 175 years old this year.

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So we are officially associated with the Southern Baptist Convention, although we predate the

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Southern Baptist Convention. We're actually older than the convention. So yeah, I mean, a

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Baptist church here just west of the Atlanta area. I grew up here as a boy. My wife grew up in the ministries of this church as a young girl as well.

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And so after going away to seminary and then pastoring out of state for a number of years in God's providence, we were called back home to serve the people that had once served us as children.

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So it's a joy and a privilege. Now, perhaps you could explain, because to some folks, it might seem like an oxymoronic statement that you made, and they may be scratching their heads.

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How can you be a completely autonomous church and be a member of the Southern Baptist Convention? Oh yeah, absolutely.

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So the Southern Baptist Convention is made up of autonomous churches that voluntarily agree to working together for the purpose of missions and discipleship.

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So the convention has absolutely zero sway or authority over the local churches.

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Great. And if anybody, either who will be visiting Douglasville, or perhaps this will motivate you to visit

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Douglasville, Georgia, or if you already live near there, or if you have friends, family, and loved ones that live near there, the website is praisemill .com,

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and that's spelled P -R -A -Y -S mill .com, and hopefully we'll be repeating that information for you later on.

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And of course, we have that event that I mentioned that I'm very excited to attend for the second time,

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God willing, the G3 Conference. Tell our listeners something about that who have not yet heard about it.

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Yeah, so the G3 Conference is a theology conference. It's for the local church.

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It was established and founded about five years ago, really about six years ago, but five years ago was the first conference, or we just finished the fifth conference, you might say it that way, in January.

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So the purpose of the conference is really to just come alongside local churches, to be an encouragement to their ministries, so that we can come together for about three days each

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January in the Atlanta area and just study theology, have good preaching of the gospel, good singing of the gospel, and really one of the foundational goals of the conference is to help local churches become more healthy.

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So more healthy in their methods and more healthy in their theology. Great, and we'll be repeating this,

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God willing, later on, but for any of you interested in attending the upcoming

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G3 Conference, go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com,

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and the dates, the exact dates, are January 17th, which is the all -Spanish edition of the

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G3 Conference, and then the 18th through the 20th is the English version of the conference, featuring

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Paul Washer, Stephen Lawson, Votey Balcom, H .B. Charles Jr., Tim Challies, and our guest, Pastor Josh Bice, our mutual friend,

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Dr. James R. White, Tom Askell, Anthony Matheny, Michael Kruger, David Miller, Paul Tripp, Todd Friel, Derek Thomas, and Martha Peace.

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So if you'd like to register, go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com, and tell them that you heard about the conference from Chris Arnzen and Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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One question I've always wanted to ask, and I don't think that I have yet, about the G3 Conference is, how do you come up with the list of guest speakers?

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Is it just because you love these people and what they have to offer to the body of Christ because you're familiar with their writings, you're familiar with hearing them at conferences other than your own, or is there some kind of strategy involved in there?

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Yeah, so there's really no strategy in the sense of no secret backdoor meeting that we have.

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Secret handshake and all that. Yeah, it's really not that complicated. It's really, it just boils down to the fact that through the years we've established good relationships, me personally and then others as well, with these particular men, and so we want to be good stewards of the ministry, and we want to put before the attendees men who are capable of rightly handling the

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Word of God and who would be a blessing to their local church ministries. Again, the conference is not to just be about a conference.

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It's about the local church, and so we want to emphasize ministries and spotlight preachers and authors who would be a blessing to local churches.

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And so many of these men I've grown to love and have good close relationships with, and so really that's the way it works.

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Great. Well, I am looking forward to being there. I've already interviewed a number of the speakers that will be there next

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January, this coming January, and hopefully we'll get a lot more of them on the program before January, and it's always a joy to interview people who are going to be speaking at the

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G3 conference because they're always very solid and have a lot of important things to say. I appreciate that,

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Chris. I want to mention here now, I had a conversation with Phil Johnson yesterday, and so we're going to be making some announcements publicly.

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We've not done so through social media or any email at this point, so really this is the first announcement, but Phil Johnson will also be speaking in the 2018 conference as well.

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Oh, great. Well, I love Phil. I had a great time with him just very recently in New York City when he was speaking at the

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Foundations Conference, the conference of Sermon Audio, and it'll be great to share fellowship with him again, so now

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I have another reason to bug him to be on Iron Sharpens Iron again, but he seems to love it a lot because Phil Johnson probably is neck and neck with Steve Camp and somebody else.

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I haven't had Steve on in quite a while, but there was a time in my old show where Steve was on at least bi -monthly, and Phil Johnson was right there neck and neck with Steve as being a frequent guest on Iron Sharpens Iron, and it's amazing that a man with his gifts and his responsibilities and schedule has always been so humble to grant my request to be on the program frequently, sometimes with five minutes notice.

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So I will look forward to speaking with him. Well, this is an interesting subject that we are starting off the program with.

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I don't know if that's proper grammar, but would Jesus bake a cake for a same -sex wedding?

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Now, obviously, you are fully aware that this issue of the same -sex wedding cakes has been going on for quite a while now, several years,

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I guess, but I don't think I've ever heard it phrased this way before. Would Jesus bake a cake for a same -sex wedding?

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What was the catalyst for you wanting to discuss that today, knowing that this issue, this controversy has been addressed by various Christians in various ways, either in writing or in public meetings and so on?

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Why the need to bring this up again? Well, it's quite simple.

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You know, we often think that, you know, if we just pass the law that everything's going to be made all right, all the problems are going to go away instantly, but that's really not the case.

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We're still seeing a divided country in America. We're still seeing a very divisive agenda throughout mainstream

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America on the subject of same -sex marriage. And so, again, we have another case of a specific baker in Colorado who was, his name's

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Jack Phillips. He refused to serve two men who entered his bakery and requested his services for their upcoming wedding.

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Again, these are two homosexual men. And so, when Jack refused service, then, of course, there was a lawsuit involved and various other things.

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So, here recently, there was an announcement by the Supreme Court that they will actually hear his case.

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And so, for the first time, he broke silence here just recently by appearing with his attorney, by the way, on The View.

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So, I don't think that if I was going to break silence for the first time on an issue like this, that that would be the setting that I would want to coach.

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But, nevertheless, that's what he chose to do. So, he sat in the middle of those women, and they had the conversation.

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As you can imagine, they went for the jugular on the issue. There were many different things, inconsistencies, you know, just flagrant, ignorant statements made about Christianity and about the

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Word of God and about Jesus himself. And at one particular moment in the conversation, which

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I think that Mr. Phillips did an all -right job as someone who's more of an artist, someone who's more of, you know, in the world of cakes and not necessarily in the world of theology, so he's not a theologian.

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But I thought he handled himself well. His demeanor was calm, and he answered their questions as they were thrown his way.

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But at one particular moment in the conversation, he just simply stated that he did not think that Jesus would—because they asked this, you know, the famous, what would

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Jesus do question. So, he answered it, and he said he did not believe that Jesus would bake the cake.

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At that point, Joy Behar said, Jesus would have baked the cake.

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And so, she went on to beat that drum for a few moments, insinuating that she was speaking for Jesus.

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And so, if there's anyone on planet Earth that we don't want speaking for Jesus, it would be

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Joy Behar, for sure. But at the end of the day, when she was making the statement that Jesus would bake the cake or would have baked the cake, then

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I just thought, you know, why not write an article that just articulates, in quite simple terms, why it is that Jesus can still be called the friend of sinners and not serve someone a homosexual wedding cake?

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Well, you know, I have a theory of my own that Jesus would have baked the cake, but on the icing, it would have said repent in bold letters.

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And actually, not far from telling the truth there, because this is obviously a very tragically prevalent and damning sin that is polluting the

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Earth and more and more Christians, even those that profess to be conservative and Bible -believing and believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, more and more of them are treating this issue with softer and softer kid gloves and are acquiescing to the world's understanding of homosexuality.

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And they're treating this issue as this is one of many people groups, not as an activity that God views as unnatural and abhorrent, but it is being more and more viewed, even by professing evangelicals, as a people group.

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And you will hear Christians speak about this from their pulpits and you would get the inclination that they are referring to just one of many national or ethnic or religious groups of people that are subsets of humanity and this is just another different group.

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Isn't that a danger that we are treating a sin in this matter? Well, I mean, yeah, it's not only inconsistent with human history, but it's simply false.

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You know, the foundation of that particular type of thinking just does not hold water. What we need to understand is that humanity in and of itself, the totality of humanity, has been swallowed up, as it were, in the sea of depravity.

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So all of us have been stained by the sin of Adam. We've all, you know, come from our forefather and we're all stained with this sin.

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You know, the Scripture teaches quite plainly that, you know, by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin.

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And so death has passed upon all men and that all have indeed sinned.

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And so as we think about that particular verse, we think about what it means for the whole of human, of the human race, of humanity in and of itself, has been plunged into the deep wells of depravity.

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As we think about that, we understand that this idea that it's another subset of humanity, some special group or what have you, that's simply not an honest assessment of the homosexual movement.

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And Reverend Buzz Taylor has something to say. Even those who would want to take a stand against it, when you consider the pressure that we see here, there's obviously an agenda because they didn't choose just to go to another baker.

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But if you are looking at the possible end of your business because of legal expenses and all that, just to fight it, yeah, you're going to want to shy away from it.

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You're going to want to soften it a bit. That's, you know, people's jobs are at stake. Their businesses are at stake here.

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Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And again, you know, even in the interview, you mentioned that he had lost the business as a result of this type of controversy that, you know, that he's found himself in the midst of.

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But the idea that homosexuals are the new black or the new minority, which again, in this very conversation, they were beating the drum that the homosexual community are the latest and greatest group or group of, you know, the minority population in America.

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And so therefore they must be protected by the law. Well, the fact is that's an incorrect, you know, way to look at the homosexual group as well, or that, you know, that particular agenda or movement.

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Yeah. In fact, I think that the reverse is true as well in regards to people treating this as a people group issue and not as an activity issue or a sin issue.

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The reverse is true even, I believe, with those who have nothing but hate and contempt and ill will for homosexuals, because they are forgetting that these are human beings who are sadly involved in an activity and in a sin.

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And this sin, making this sin even more difficult,

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I'm assuming, for someone to depart from because of the fact that the world is applauding them while they are involved in this.

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The world is telling them, and even many in a number of religions, even religions that profess to be

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Christian, and even Christians have soft -pedaled this, but you have people applauding them, treating them as if they are an elite group of people, and even on occasion treating them as if they are people with superior morality.

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That is why, and I know I referenced this on this program once before, but the local town hall here was voting on whether or not homosexuals should have a special protected status group, or they should be considered that way, as a special protected status group.

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And a woman got up from the community who was a Christian and she expressed her fear over entering into public restrooms with her children, because she never knew who was going to be in there now.

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And then this other woman who got up, she was either a practicing lesbian, or at least a strong advocate for homosexuality, either one, and she actually got up and she said that that woman who got up has it all wrong.

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The members of the LGBTQ community would never molest a child.

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They don't do that. It's your heterosexual men who do that.

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So then I got up after she sat down and I said, did you hear what that woman just said? You got to look through the fog here of what she just said.

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That woman just claimed that homosexuals are morally superior to heterosexuals.

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And I said to the board there, the town board, I'm the one, according to her, that you have to be suspicious of, and you have to treat with fear and apprehension and restriction and discrimination.

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People like me, the heterosexual men, we're the ones that you got to be on guard for, not any of the homosexuals.

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I mean, isn't this clear that they're making a case that they are superior? Well, I think so.

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I mean, I think that if you just go on the clear assumption of what you're talking about in that particular example, and then elsewhere you see it in various articles and where they're trying to defend themselves, it comes off that way.

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And what we need to realize is that there's not one particular group of people and not one particular race of people on planet

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Earth that's somehow superior to sexual sin and sexual misconduct.

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So we see it in various different forms, from adultery to homosexuality to various types of perversions and, you know, sins of fornication.

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But the fact of the matter is simply this, Jesus never celebrated nor condoned any type of porneia, any type of sexual misconduct.

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So to suggest that somehow or another that Jesus has progressed in our present culture to now condone that type of lifestyle is simply inconsistent with the

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Jesus of the Bible. Amen. Now, I'm sure, I haven't specifically heard this yet with my own ears, but I'm sure that there are people out there,

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I just know it just from what I see every day on the internet and hear every day, even from, again, sadly, tragically, from professing evangelicals and Bible believers, but I'm sure that there are people out there who are professedly

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Christian who say, well, absolutely Jesus would have baked the cake for a same -sex wedding because this will enable him to develop a deeper friendship with these people and more of an ongoing relationship where he will be invited into their lives and into their family gatherings and all kinds of things where he will have more of an opportunity to address these issues and present the gospel to them.

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How do you respond to that? Because I know that there must be people out there who think that way. Well, absolutely.

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Well, the idea that Jesus was, you know, visibly seen with and accused of being the friend of sinners and, you know, people even accuse

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Jesus of being a glutton and a drunkard because he spent time with tax collectors and that type of thing.

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There's a difference between having a meal with someone and celebrating someone's sinful actions.

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So, again, the idea of baking a cake and celebrating, joining in the celebration of something that is very much in contradiction to God's biblical design of marriage and the family is quite different.

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It's quite different than just entering into a meaningful conversation with someone with the desire to bring them out of the darkness of their depravity and into the light of Jesus Christ.

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There is a difference there, so we must make a clear distinction between just having a conversation and spending time with outcasts and fishermen and tax collectors and the idea of going to a wedding or else celebrating, engaging in that celebration by, you know, providing the central aspect of that celebration, which would be the cake.

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Yeah, and there is a big difference, I'm sure you would agree, between some

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Christian who works at a gas station or owns a gas station and he fills up the tank of the couple, the same -sex couple that is about to get married.

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He knows that they're on their way to have this ceremony and he fills up their tank and he fills up the tanks of everybody else involved in the ceremony and receives payment for doing that.

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There's a difference between that and making a cake, which is a part of the celebration.

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This is something that actually clearly gives a signal that I join you in the festivity and the celebration of what you were doing.

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Isn't there a difference there? That's an absolute difference. In fact, Jack Phillips, in this interview, he mentioned the fact that he owns a bakery and he would have served them if they had just walked in and wanted to buy cupcakes or something else in the store, but they were requesting special services.

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They were requesting him to engage in a special service of baking their unique wedding cake for their ceremony, and at that point he said, for conscience sake and for the sake of his own belief system, he could not do that.

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Yeah, you know, I'm starting to get the feeling that people who are involved in same -sex relationships and intending to have wedding ceremonies, although I don't believe you could even call it a wedding or a marriage, but I'm getting the suspicion here that people are doing this, they're approaching

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Christian bakeries on purpose because this is really getting out of hand. How many times is this going to keep occurring where Christian bakers are being backed into a corner and being forced to either violate their consciences or act according to their consciousness and receive the seriously bad repercussions for it financially and otherwise?

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Well, yeah, I mean, for instance, I think that it's going to continue as long as this agenda continues, and I think that they're just setting the stage for something far greater, which is, you know, an ongoing, very intentional push to show up in pastor's offices and request for the pastor of that local church to engage in oversight of their wedding ceremony.

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You know, yesterday, just in fact yesterday, the Church of England voted to lower their guard on the issue of, you know, same -sex marriage and homosexuality, and so we're seeing this ongoing push across not just American life but now beyond throughout the world.

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We're just seeing an ongoing agenda take place here. So we're not talking about just cupcakes and wedding cakes here, we're talking about something far greater, and, you know, religious freedom is at the heart of this particular issue.

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So while some people might say, well, couldn't you just give yourself the better things and writing articles on, you know, baking wedding, you know, cakes and that type of thing, of course

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Jesus wouldn't have done that, but really this is an issue of religious freedom, and we need to pay close attention to this type of thing.

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Yes, it's ironic that liberals who used to believe that people, whoever they were or whoever they are, should have the freedom and the right to act according to their rights and desires, they really, many of them, have become far to the left of liberalism and have actually become totalitarian leftists because they don't want the conservative bible -believing or even those of other more conservative religions to have rights to act according to their convictions and pleasures.

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Yeah, exactly. I mean, this is a stripping away of freedom and we need to pay close attention to that.

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Yeah, this has nothing to do with outlawing any bakery from making cakes for so -called homosexual weddings.

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This is about the individual freedoms of people to be able to say, no, I don't want to do that.

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I find that activity in direct conflict with things

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I hold precious, my religious faith, the doctrines and beliefs and practices of my deeply held religious faith, and I do not want to do that.

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And you would wonder why anybody who is hiring somebody to create something that has an integral part of some ceremony that they think is very valuable, you would wonder why they would want anybody who would have reservations and would lack any enthusiasm and excitement over creating this.

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In fact, the reverse of that. That's why you can't help but think that this is being done for publicity stunts and lawsuits because I wouldn't want anybody, if I was getting a cake made for any special occasion and the baker seemed like he could care less about what

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I was doing and he was like, yeah, whatever. I wouldn't want that person to be involved in creating the cake, especially if I was spending a lot of money on it and it was supposed to be intricate and decorated and so on.

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Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes perfect sense. And I do agree with the idea that a lot of this is just intentional targeting.

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But again, all of this has to play its way out in court. And unfortunately, I believe that we're just seeing the stage, you know, setting, as it were, to leverage the law against, you know, the

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Christian community in the United States of America. All right, we've got to go to our first break right now.

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If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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32:30

We'll be right back with Pastor Josh Bice and the question of would Jesus bake a same sex wedding cake?

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is

37:07

Josh Bice, pastor of Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia, blogger at deliveredbygrace .com,

37:14

and the founder and director and speaker at the G3 Conference, which is coming up in January, the 17th through the 20th, the 17th being an exclusively

37:26

Spanish edition, and the 18th through the 20th being the English version of the conference.

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And again, their website is g3conference .com. We have two subjects today.

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We are in the middle of discussing Would Jesus Bake a Cake for a Same -Sex Wedding, and coming up in the second hour, we intend to address a response to anti -Calvinists in the

37:52

Southern Baptist Convention. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

37:58

Before I go to any of the listeners who are waiting to have you answer their questions,

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Pastor Josh, I'm assuming then your answer to the question is that Jesus would not bake a cake for a same -sex wedding.

38:14

Correct. Yes, I believe that the answer is absolutely not, and the reason why is not, it's simply this.

38:23

It's not the same as caring for the least of these or caring for those who are hungry or, you know, that type of thing.

38:34

It's not the same as feeding the multitude with, you know, a small portion of fish and bread.

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That's not what we're talking about here. So what we're talking about is entering into a celebration of sin.

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Jesus would not contradict himself. He would not contradict his Father. He would not contradict the

38:54

Spirit. He would not contradict the biblical definition of marriage.

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So feeding, you know, a multitude of people on a hillside that were hungry is something far different than entering into a celebration of something that violates the very law of God and the

39:15

Word of God. Now, I'm assuming that you would agree with me that a

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Christian should not be bent out of shape and angry and seek to cause trouble and seek to file a lawsuit and have legal actions brought against someone.

39:36

If the scenario was different and somebody, let's say they're celebrating the baptism of a friend or they're celebrating a pastor being installed in their congregation, they want a cake to be created that says,

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Jesus is Lord on the cake, and the baker says to you or to whoever it is that is getting this cake,

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I'm sorry, sir, but I'm an Orthodox Jew. And I really cannot create a cake like this.

40:08

It violates my conscience. It violates my beliefs. Shouldn't we as Christians just say, oh, I understand completely.

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I would pray that you come to agree with me on this issue. I love my

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Lord Jesus Christ, and I have a love and compassion for your soul, and I would love to see you come to Christ, but I understand completely, and I will just find another baker.

40:28

Shouldn't that be the reaction that we would have? Yeah, I mean, if you think about the whole scenario there,

40:35

I mean, you just want to be consistent with your beliefs. You don't want to force someone to violate their own belief system or their own conscience by entering into that particular scenario.

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So I think that you're exactly right, and I think that for a Christian to be refused service on that basis would not be that we should just go, you know, trying to figure out a way to file a lawsuit as a result of it.

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I think that they have the right to refuse us, and we should just be happy with that and go find another bakery.

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Yeah, in fact, even if it was somebody involved in homosexual activity that ran the bakery and said, no,

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I think that your religion is a hateful and bigoted one, you might be compelled to, in love and patience, correct that person from their false belief, but to go bananas over it and have a legal action brought against them to make your cake, that's too ridiculous.

41:32

And going back to something I said earlier, I wouldn't want them to make a cake if they were filled with some kind of disgust over why

41:39

I was having the cake made to begin with. Yeah, I mean, it just doesn't make sense.

41:45

I mean, it's just illogical at that point. All right, well, we have some listeners here that have been waiting to have their questions addressed.

41:56

We have Rose in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Hello, Brother Bice, my question for you is this.

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Do you think that ultimately this will be decided in the Supreme Court here in the United States, at least for a time?

42:13

I'm sorry, Chris, the phone just now had a problem. Can you repeat that question? Yes, this is Rose from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

42:20

And she says, do you think that ultimately this will be decided in the Supreme Court here in the

42:26

United States, at least for a time? I think that it's going to continue to be an ongoing problem.

42:32

I mean, as you've already referenced, this is something that's just been continually reoccurring and resurfacing.

42:38

So I don't know that this is going to be the definitive issue, the definitive case.

42:43

But, you know, quite frankly, I'm not looking for it to be something that just, you know, fades off into the sunset anytime soon.

42:52

I think that we're going to see an ongoing pattern of intentional targeting by certain groups upon Christians.

43:00

Again, we should be aware of the fact that we've already been forewarned by Jesus that the world will hate us, and so we should not find that as, you know, a shocking truth or reality when it hits us in the face.

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But the fact is we're seeing this agenda that continues to leverage itself against the

43:20

Christian Church, and I think that we need to be mindful of, you know, the fact that we don't wrestle against flesh and blood.

43:28

We wrestle against a very dominant force, the devil and demonic forces that are working their way into political situations, just like we're seeing here in this case with Jack Phillips.

43:42

And so don't always look for the Christian to win these things. In a country that's very much in a moral state of decline and rebellion, don't look for the

43:53

Christian to always win such arguments. Now, before I go on to the next question,

44:00

I just have to ask you this question, because I remember hearing this come up a lot. I would hear it come up not only by fellow conservative

44:10

Bible -believing Christians who agree that a Christian baker should not bake a cake for a same -sex wedding, but also by liberals who are opposed to the

44:24

Christian refraining from that activity. The question is, should a

44:29

Christian baker bake a cake for divorced people who are getting married to other spouses?

44:35

Yeah, I mean, again, I think that particular scenario is a valid question, but it's different in the sense that there's theology and theological implications that have to be fleshed out at that particular level.

44:50

So the question would be, where does that particular Christian stand on the subject of divorce and remarriage?

44:56

Do they embrace, you know, certain clauses, biblical clauses for divorce and remarriage, or do they believe that if someone enters into a divorced situation, severs their covenant of marriage, that they are not biblically permitted to remarry?

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And I think that at that point, if that's their belief, then they should not bake the cake. But if they believe that there is freedom for remarriage, then at that point,

45:26

I think that they, you know, do have the freedom to engage in, you know, the act of baking that cake.

45:32

So there's some theological nuances that have to be worked out, but it's not exactly the same as two homosexual men walking into a shop and requesting special services.

45:43

And there was another thing. I mean, obviously, a Christian is never supposed to violate their conscience, even if they're incorrect.

45:50

If they think something is sin, even if it's not sin according to God, it's still a sin for them to be involved in it because they think they're disobeying

45:59

God. Yeah, absolutely. And the other thing that would follow up on that is, I have even heard

46:05

Christians say, well then, what should we do? Should we, every time somebody bakes a cake, ask them, by the way, have you ever been married before?

46:14

What were the circumstances involved behind your divorce? And all these other things that may come up in these circumstances.

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Yeah, I mean, you can't interrogate the person that walks into your shop, obviously. Let me see your papers.

46:30

Let me see your papers. Yeah, I mean, I think that if you're going to enter into business, you're going to own a business, you're going to have to serve people that aren't believers, that aren't

46:42

Christians. But it's quite different, you know, than celebrating their ceremony that violates the word of God and diminishes

46:51

God's design for marriage, and so it's quite different. Well, thank you,

46:56

Rose in Harrisburg. Keep spreading the word in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania and beyond about Iron Trump and Zion Radio.

47:03

And we now have Gordie in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who asks two questions.

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In your opinion, what is the biggest misconception that non -believers have about Scripture as it relates to homosexuality and quote, quote, gay marriage?

47:20

That's the first question. I think the first question, I think the answer to that first question would simply be this.

47:27

I think that right now, the liberal community that just knows the surface level assumption or, you know, surface level reading of the

47:38

Gospel or the Bible in general, I think that the greatest thing that they do or the error that they enter into is that they disconnect the

47:47

Jesus of the New Testament from the God of the Old Testament. So I think that they fail to realize that the same

47:54

God who is raining down rocks of fire and brimstone on cities like Sodom and Gomorrah, not because of inhospitality, but because of their vile wickedness and engaging in acts of homosexuality, which are certainly unnatural and repulsive to God, and we see that as a follow -up in the

48:17

New Testament. We see that as something that's confirmed, but what

48:23

I think happens is many people see this angry God of the Old Testament, and they see this very soft and affirming

48:31

Jesus of the New Testament. I think that the problem is that they don't know the Jesus of the

48:37

New Testament. I was hearing Votie Bauckham preach some time back, and he said, if that's the problem, if that's where you are, that you don't think that Jesus is the same as the

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God, if he's not one with the Father of the Old Testament, then just keep on reading until you get all the way to the end of the

48:56

New Testament, until you get to the book of the Revelation, and then you'll start to see the oneness of Jesus with the

49:03

Father. Amen. And the second question that Gordie has for you is, how do we balance in our conversations with non -believers the sin of homosexuality and the fact that regardless of one's sexual preference, apart from faith in Christ alone for forgiveness of sins, that person stands condemned before God?

49:26

Very good point there. Yeah, I think the first thing we need to do when we engage with anyone who's an unbeliever, so it doesn't matter if they're homosexual or if they're not,

49:37

I think that we need to honor them as a human being. I don't think that we need to, you know, engage in slanderous activity of just, you know, throwing around, you know, cliches and Bible cliches and bumper sticker theology and trying to beat people over the head with our quote -unquote theology.

49:59

I think that we need to have a loving approach to people. It doesn't matter who it is, and so I think we first of all treat them like a human being that was created in the image and likeness of God, and I think second of all that we need to have a desire, a genuine desire, to see that person come to faith in Christ, not to win an argument.

50:21

It's different to just enter into a discussion or into a quote -unquote debate with someone that's an unbeliever and just try to win an argument, you know, try to throw out the gotcha, you know, point and bait them in.

50:35

No, I think that we need to enter into such discussions with a genuine longing to see that person come to faith in Christ, and I think that when we approach people, whether it's the drunkard next door, whether it's the homosexual next door, no matter what person we're talking to, if we approach them with a genuine desire to see that person saved, it's going to change our countenance, our speech, our conduct, and all of this matters when we're talking to people.

51:04

Reverend Buds Taylor has a comment or question. Well, even the Apostle Paul said, you know, if when

51:10

I was telling you about the homosexuals and murderers and adulterers and all that, about not to associate, I wasn't talking about in the world, otherwise you'd have to leave the world.

51:19

So we're not told that we cannot associate with these people. We're told if they are so -called brother and they are these things, we're not to associate because it is obvious, just in carrying on commerce, like we were saying before, you can't interrogate everybody that comes into your bakery shop, you know, you're going to be doing business with believers and unbelievers alike.

51:38

But that's where we were discussing before the difference between whether you're actually celebrating the evil or just associating with the person.

51:48

That's where, you know, there is a difference. Yeah, absolutely. That's a fantastic point. And I think that, again, we're not called to just go out and live on some type of farm, you know, where we have, you know, the world hedged off from us.

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That's not realistic. And that's certainly not the call of the gospel. We're to advance the gospel into a culture that's very much dark and against the advancement of the gospel.

52:12

But we're also to be reminded of what Paul said to Timothy in 2 Timothy. He said that he was to correct his opponents with gentleness, that God may perhaps grant them repentance.

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And so we need to correct people with gentleness. Now we're going to, just for a little bit, extend this topic into our second hour, since we've had so much response to it from listeners, and you still have a few listeners waiting for their questions to be answered on this topic.

52:41

So I have just emailed you, I forwarded you an email from Scott in Bryan, Ohio, and you can answer that when we return from the break, and I'll read it out loud right now.

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Scott says, Chris, please ask your guest, is the provision of a service such as photography, baking a cake, rentals, artwork, etc.,

53:01

a form of celebration? Are we who provide some of these services to refuse anyone headed for hell in good conscience?

53:10

I know of people living in sin, Mormons and atheists to name two. It would feel awkward refusing service to a paying customer.

53:19

And you could answer that from Scott in Bryan, Ohio, when we return from our break. If anybody else would like to join us on the second issue that we'll be addressing, a response to anti -Calvinists in the

53:32

Southern Baptist Convention, which is coming up during the second hour momentarily. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

53:39

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away, God willing, we'll be right back with Josh Bice and more of our discussion.

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen, if you just tuned us in. Our guest today is Josh Bice, Senior Pastor of Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia, blogger at deliveredbygrace .com

01:04:12

and director and also a speaker at the annual G3 Conference in Atlanta, Georgia.

01:04:19

We have been addressing would Jesus bake a cake for a same -sex wedding, which we are drawing to a conclusion on that topic, and we are going to be starting the conversation in a moment on a response to anti -Calvinists in the

01:04:37

Southern Baptist Convention, but we do have a couple more questions on this first issue that I wanted to allow our listeners to have their questions asked to you and answered by you,

01:04:51

Pastor Josh, before we move on to that second topic. And our email address for anybody desiring to ask a question now on the subject of a response to anti -Calvinists in the

01:05:01

Southern Baptist Convention, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

01:05:09

And before the break, as you know, our friend

01:05:15

Scott in Bryan, Ohio, he asked a question that basically involved, should we as Christians not use our services such as photography and other things, rentals, artwork, and other things that are involved in celebrations for even people like Mormons and atheists?

01:05:41

I mean, is this only a homosexual issue that we're talking about here, or are people in cults and lost people to be included?

01:05:48

Yeah, so this is an ethical question that's oftentimes difficult to navigate, but when it comes to the issue of, say, a wedding, it's quite different to engage in the celebration as a baker or a photographer than it is, say, the man who filled up the gas tank of the couple on their way to their wedding, or perhaps rented them chairs or rented them sound equipment or something of that nature.

01:06:24

When it comes to something that's at the very heart of the celebration, something that spotlights or is seen to celebrate the act of that particular ceremony, such as the cake, which is often the central part of the ceremony and the celebration, or the photographer who's taking the pictures that will be plastered on their walls and put on social media for the world to see and engage in an act of celebration, it's something quite different.

01:06:55

So you need to be able to distinguish between the two different services that you might be offering.

01:07:02

So again, I think it's a very difficult question sometimes to navigate, but we have to be clear as to what's happening.

01:07:11

When someone says they're not willing to bake a cake because their artistic engagement is somehow celebrating, engaging in a spirit of celebration in that particular ceremony, that's different than someone who rents the chair to that particular individual who might not even know what's going on at that particular event.

01:07:35

So I think that we have to be able to distinguish the differences here. Well, thank you,

01:07:42

Scott in Bryan, Ohio. We have an anonymous listener who says,

01:07:49

I just get mad when these militant sodomites go out of their way to poke their finger in some peaceful Christian's eye.

01:07:57

It's hard for me to pray for them any pastoral advice. Obviously, we are never to be so self -righteous that we cease to pray for our enemies.

01:08:08

We're enemies, right, Pastor Jeff? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's the command of Jesus.

01:08:14

He instructed us to pray for our enemies, and so anyone can pray for those that we love within our church.

01:08:21

It doesn't take the most spiritual person or the most sanctified individual to engage in, you know, prayer for someone that you agree with.

01:08:31

It's very difficult to give yourself to praying for people that you don't agree with or that you might consider to be your enemy.

01:08:39

And so, again, I think that while we see this radical militant agenda that's out there,

01:08:46

I think we have to distinguish when we engage in conversations with people. Are we, you know, casting pearls before the swine, or are we genuinely engaging in a desire and in a meaningful conversation that would bring about, you know, gospel fruit?

01:09:06

And so, again, I think that we just have to be clear, and we have to be wise, and we have to be loving, and at the very same time, we have to be truthful people.

01:09:16

So this idea that you're not loving people because you're telling them that Jesus disapproves of their lifestyle, that's actually the greatest form of love, is to tell someone the truth and then to pray for their souls.

01:09:31

So that's the way that Jesus instructs us. Thank you, Anonymous. And Jenny from Ben Salem, Pennsylvania says,

01:09:38

God was quite clear in the Bible starting in Genesis 1 concerning biblical marriage. Why has, in your opinion, the gay issue caused such division within Christendom?

01:09:51

Well, again, that's a very complicated question, simply because of the fact that we don't know what Christendom means, or evangelicalism.

01:10:00

You know, the lines have become so blurred. So, you know, like we've mentioned before, the

01:10:05

Church of England's vote yesterday is a monumental thing that's going to go down in history as a massive, you know, dam -breaking moment.

01:10:15

But when we think about the reason why there's such a progressive mindset and a change of direction when it comes to the issue of biblical marriage, it's simple because of the fact that many people who claim to be followers of Christ are following the wrong

01:10:31

Christ. They're following the wrong Jesus. So they don't have eyes to see, they don't have ears to hear, and they have followed a

01:10:39

Jesus of their imagination. And so it's really easy for someone like Joy Behar on The View to say,

01:10:45

Jesus would bake the cake, you know, and she was so presumptuous in her attitude.

01:10:51

And it's really easy to engage in that type of mindset if you're, you know, inventing a different Jesus, where you can just open

01:11:00

His mouth like a puppet and put anything in there that you want. But it's quite different to understand the sovereign

01:11:08

Jesus of the New Testament, and to bow before His teachings, and to follow Him, and to submit to Him.

01:11:15

So again, I think that is just simply this, the reason that we see so much muddy water as it is in this particular issue is simply because of the fact that a lot of people in the quote -unquote church aren't really a part of Jesus's church.

01:11:32

Yes, and don't you think that a lot of people who are saved but in grievous error involved in this subject, when they think that they are demonstrating the love, compassion, and mercy of Christ towards people involved in homosexual activity, by softening the severity of the sin that they are involved in, not even calling it a sin sometimes, and even when you consider the more conservative of those folks, they will sometimes treat those involved in homosexuality as victims of their ingrained makeup, if you will, a proclivity that they had no control over themselves.

01:12:25

So they are viewed as victims that we have to treat with more patience and not view them as someone who is involved in the same way as someone who is involved in deadly drug or alcohol addiction or things like that.

01:12:45

They are treated in a different way. Isn't that really a masquerade of love that is really not love at all?

01:12:54

Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I think that we're seeing this problem play its way out in the lives of many people who, in fact, have children, and they have broken hearts because they've watched their children go down this broken road, and so in their mind, they think that the only way to reach that particular individual is to somehow soften the blow of the gospel or to, you know, affirm them in some way, celebrate with them, attend their wedding, have them and their partner at their, you know, supper table, and engage in meaningful family life with this particular type of scenario in their own family.

01:13:33

And so I think that it just becomes very difficult for Christians sometimes, I'm talking about genuine Christians, to, you know, figure out how to navigate this very complicated web when you're not talking about someone three and a half miles down the road, you're talking about someone in your own home, someone that you gave birth to, perhaps, as a mother or a father in that particular home.

01:13:56

And so it becomes very difficult and challenging and heartbreaking, but the

01:14:01

Christian is called to tell the truth and to preach the gospel to these people and to do so with love.

01:14:09

And I think that it's, again, worth stating that just because we don't condone the sin of homosexuality doesn't mean that we can't love someone.

01:14:19

And again, I think that, like you said before, you know, we often see people in the homosexual community treated differently than someone, you know, involved in, you know, drug abuse or even some type of vile sin, such as abuse to children or murder, things of that nature.

01:14:39

You don't see people saying, well, listen, we have enough people in our own little group here stating that because we love 12 -year -olds, we're allowed to engage in sexual misconduct with them and abuse them because, after all, they say that they love us and we love them, and so we think you should just condone our lifestyle.

01:14:58

No, we would say that's wrong, that there's something not right about that. But simply because we have such an agenda in the media and in a growing population across America that seems to condone the unnatural relationship of a man lying with a man or a woman lying with a woman, and so we, as a result, we think that we have to give in to that type of agenda, and we certainly don't.

01:15:24

All right, I'm going to take our last question on this topic from Tony in South Carolina, Rock Hill, South Carolina.

01:15:35

Tony, with an I, says, regarding participating in the marriage of couples who are living together or divorced, homosexual marriage seems to me to be a very unique situation and a particularly heinous mockery of God's design for marriage.

01:15:53

Every man and woman who stands before God to marry are sinners. Seems like a same -sex union and a male -female union are incomparable.

01:16:03

As a floral designer, I do not have a morality test that I give couples before I agree to their wedding, but two men or two women would be obvious, and I would not be able to serve this couple.

01:16:16

I see no comparison between homosexual and heterosexual marriage before God. One is natural, the other is an abomination.

01:16:25

Seems like apples and oranges to me, regardless of the heterosexual couple's sin.

01:16:31

No question mark. Do you have an answer to Tony? Yeah, I mean,

01:16:36

I would say that I agree with it. I mean, I agree with the statement that he's made. I agree with that type of logical look at the scenario, but again, what we need to realize is that many people who are listening to this particular program today would be in agreement with one another on this issue, but what we're talking about is that there's an awful lot of people who aren't believers, who don't see it as apples and oranges.

01:17:01

They see it as apple and apple, and so we need to be able to enter into a meaningful conversation with some sort of theological depth and precision that would demonstrate that the

01:17:14

Jesus of the New Testament is God, and he was not absent when the institution of marriage took place in the

01:17:22

Old Testament. He was very much present, and he was very much involved with the design of the family and the design of human civilization, so to disconnect

01:17:31

Jesus in the New Testament from the God of the Old Testament is simply not...it is theologically inconsistent, and it's a grievous error, and so we need to be able to engage with people who might not say amen to that type of statement, that might actually give a rebuttal, so like someone that's watching

01:17:50

The View, for instance. We need to be able to give a meaningful, courageous, and accurate response to this type of thinking.

01:17:59

Thank you, Tony, in Rock Hill, South Carolina, and one last thing I'd like to say before I go to a final station break and we begin our second topic of the day on a response to anti -Calvinists in the

01:18:13

Southern Baptist Convention. Don't you think it is dangerous, and I see this happening more and more, even with otherwise very conservative

01:18:21

Christians and congregations and churches and fellowships and denominations, where they are saying publicly that there is no difference between an act of homosexuality and a little boy stealing a handful of candy at the local grocery store, that there is no difference between those things and a pastor who has too much food at a barbecue, that homosexuality is just a sin like any other sin?

01:18:50

Now, I know that you would agree with me that all of those sins have in common that they will send you to hell if you don't have the covering of Christ's blood, if you are not trusting in his sacrifice on Calvary for the remission of those sins, but other than that, though, there is a vast difference in between all kinds of different sins, aren't there?

01:19:12

Well, absolutely. I mean, we see in the New Testament, we see Jesus making clear distinctions between, say, the people of certain cities.

01:19:20

Woe unto you, Chorazin! Woe unto you, Bethsaida! I mean, you hear that type of language coming out of Jesus's mouth about the fact that there were certain people who had way more, far more light than other particular pagans did.

01:19:35

And so, in other words, here's the way it works. I firmly believe that the unbeliever who has sat on church pews numerous times and heard the gospel clearly presented will have a much more severe punishment in hell than the person, say, in Sodom and Gomorrah that had far less light than that particular individual.

01:20:02

And so, God is a holy and just and righteous judge, and he always judges with precision and perfection, but it's completely inconsistent biblically and theologically to suggest that a child that steals chocolate from the local store is on the same level as two men who are engaging in homosexuality.

01:20:23

There will be differing degrees of punishment in hell, and we see that type of thing clearly taught by Jesus.

01:20:31

There's even different degrees of punishment that God has prescribed in his word for those different sins.

01:20:37

You didn't get the death penalty even in the Old Covenant over every sin. So, and obviously, every church that is functioning biblically and with elders that have right minds is not going to treat a person who loses his temper with his children in the parking lot before worship services.

01:20:57

They're not going to treat that individual in the same way as an unrepentant homosexual in the congregation.

01:21:03

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think you have some debate over what it means when it talks about the keys have been given, you know, and that type of thing, you know, but I think that when it comes to the local church, again, you know, you're going to assess things differently in church disciplinary issues than you would, say, you're going to treat open adultery in the community differently than you would someone that was found in the act of drunkenness or drug abuse, because they're hooked on pain medication from a surgery that they had a couple of years back.

01:21:33

And so, I think that you're just going to handle things differently, but if we do that as flawed, sinful human beings, then we know that God does that in a much greater fashion with greater precision as the righteous judge.

01:21:48

And thank you, Tony. And by the way, Pastor Josh, Tony is a woman, Tony with an I. I actually had the pleasure of meeting

01:21:55

Tony at the G3 conference this past January. She had been listening to Iron Trump and Zion Radio for years, going back to her old days in New York.

01:22:04

I had never met her before, and she approached the exhibitor's booth there and told me who she was.

01:22:11

So, Tony with an I is a woman there in Rock Hill, South Carolina. Oh, very good. And we are going to our final break now, and now we are taking questions exclusively for a response to anti -Calvinists in the

01:22:23

Southern Baptist Convention. And our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:22:30

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA. We still have a listener,

01:22:37

Revenant Grace, who has written a question who has not identified your city and state or country of residence.

01:22:44

If you could do that before we come back from the station break, that would be great. chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:22:50

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. God willing, we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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01:25:07

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Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon

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01:25:27

Before we return to our discussion with Pastor Josh Bice on a response to anti -Calvinists in the

01:25:35

Southern Baptist Convention, I have some important announcements to make. The Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, is pleased to announce that the

01:25:45

Word of Truth Bible Institute will be offering two free classes this summer, the Book of Romans and an

01:25:52

Old Testament survey. Romans will meet on July 12th, which is tomorrow,

01:25:59

July 19th, and July 26th from 7 to 9 p .m., and the Old Testament survey will meet the week of July 17th through the 21st from 7 to 9 p .m.,

01:26:11

with the exception of July 19th, which will be from 5 to 7 p .m.

01:26:17

At the Word of Truth Church, 1055 Portion Road in Farmingville, Long Island, New York.

01:26:22

Registration is required. Call Pastor Bruce at area code 631 -806 -0614.

01:26:30

That's 631 -806 -0614. And even though the Romans class has started already, new students are still welcome.

01:26:39

The church website for the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, is wotchurch .com.

01:26:47

That's W -O -T for Word of Truth, church .com, wotchurch .com.

01:26:53

And then, coming up next month, from August 3rd through the 5th, the Fellowship Conference New England is being held at the

01:27:00

Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine, and speakers include Don Curran, Mack Tomlinson, Jesse Barrington, and Nate Pickowitz.

01:27:09

For more details on this conference, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com, fellowshipconferencenewengland .com.

01:27:17

Following that, in November, from the 17th through the 18th, the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having their

01:27:24

Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology, and the theme is For Still Our Ancient Foe, a line from Martin Luther's classic hymn,

01:27:34

A Mighty Fortress. Speakers include Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill, and Scott Oliphant.

01:27:42

For details, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org, click on Events, and then click on Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology.

01:27:51

And then, last but not least, we have the G3 Conference that we've been discussing, the G3 Conference in Atlanta, Georgia, and speakers include

01:27:59

Paul Washer, Stephen Lawson, Votie Balcom, H .B. Charles, Jr., Tim Challies. Our guests today, right now,

01:28:05

Josh Bice, James White, Tom Askell, Anthony Mathenia, Michael Kruger, David Miller, Paul Tripp, Todd Friel, Derek Thomas, and Martha Peace.

01:28:14

The theme is Knowing God, a Biblical Understanding of Discipleship. That's January 17th through the 20th,

01:28:22

January 17th being exclusively a Spanish conference, and the 18th through the 20th being exclusively an

01:28:29

English -speaking conference. And for more details on registering, go to g3conference .com,

01:28:35

g3conference .com. And now comes the time, the most uncomfortable time that I have in this program, at the urging of those who are already my advertisers and sponsors, keeping

01:28:51

Iron Sharp and Zion Radio on the air. They have urged me for quite a while, and I finally succumbed to their urging to make public appeals for donations.

01:29:00

If you are blessed above and beyond your ability to support your local church, as you always have been doing, and your family, please consider helping

01:29:12

Iron Sharp and Zion Radio, without dipping into the aforementioned things that you are doing that are commands of God.

01:29:20

You must obey God by supporting your church and your family. Giving to Iron Sharp and Zion Radio is not a command of scripture, but if you are blessed enough where you are able to do that while still giving to your church, as you always have, and still providing for your family, we would love to receive a gift of any amount by going to ironsharpandzionradio .com,

01:29:43

clicking on support, and mailing a check made out to Iron Sharp and Zion Radio to the address that is there by clicking on support at ironsharpandzionradio .com.

01:29:54

If you want to advertise with us, send us an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:30:01

Put advertising in the subject line, and as long as what you are offering, or whatever event you may be having, or whatever it is you're advertising, as long as it's compatible with the theology expressed on Iron Sharp and Zion Radio, I'd love to speak with you about it.

01:30:17

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. That's also the email address to send in questions about our topic now, and I know that I already want

01:30:27

Pastor Josh back on again in the near future to continue this subject, because I have a feeling we're not going to thoroughly be able to address this issue with the limited time that we have, but a response to anti -Calvinists and the

01:30:39

Southern Baptist Convention is our topic right now, and please send us an email if you intend to join us on the air.

01:30:45

We already have a number of you waiting to have your questions asked, but the email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:30:51

chrisarnson at gmail .com. I will take as many questions as I can from our listeners, but first of all,

01:30:57

Pastor Josh, what was it that compelled you to want to address this issue today?

01:31:03

Well, one of the things that concerns me as a Southern Baptist pastor, and again,

01:31:09

I've been a Southern Baptist my entire life, is to see historical inconsistencies that are being written and spoken of in the family, you might say, or openly in Southern Baptist life, and so there's a particular agenda that's running through the

01:31:29

Southern Baptist Convention right now that is being promoted by a pastor.

01:31:34

Again, his name is Eric Hankins, and he happens to be the primary author of a particular document that was written several years back called the

01:31:44

Traditional Statement on Soteriology or on Salvation According to Historic Baptist Beliefs, and that particular statement, in and of itself, takes issue with a

01:32:00

Calvinistic soteriology, a Calvinistic position on salvation, and so again, the framework of that particular document caused a lot of controversy.

01:32:12

Again, he was asking people to sign it, both pastors and seminary professors and just church members in general, in support of it, so I did not sign the document.

01:32:25

I was very vocal during that time period a few years back as to why I would not sign that document, but the problem that I have is that Eric Hankins, again, ended up being involved with a particular group of people in the

01:32:42

SBC that was addressing the issue of Calvinism in the

01:32:47

Southern Baptist Convention, and again, ended up having conversations with Al Mohler at Southern Seminary, but here we are a few years later, and that particular

01:32:59

Eric Hankins, in conversation with Al Mohler, that video can be found on YouTube, is quite different than the

01:33:09

Eric Hankins who spoke in Phoenix at this past annual convention for the

01:33:16

SBC. There was a particular special breakout session meeting that was held for groups of people that are in support of this particular document.

01:33:25

It's an anti -Calvinist or a non -Calvinist approach to convention politics.

01:33:33

And so in his speech, or in his talk, he addressed the issue, and the things that he stated are not only historically inconsistent, but they're theologically inconsistent, and it sounds like a different Eric Hankins than we saw just a few years back, and so I'm very much concerned with that type of mentality that's, again, addressing the uptick or the resurgence of a

01:34:02

Calvinistic soteriology or a reformed position on the subject of salvation in the

01:34:08

Southern Baptist Convention. Okay, we have a listener who is obviously using a pseudonym without a city, state, or country of residence, but Revenant Grace says,

01:34:20

Dear Brother Chris, thank you for having Brother Josh back again. Please ask him to give a history overview of what happened in the

01:34:28

Southern Baptist Convention that took so many of those churches away from their Reformed Baptist roots into the modern -day downgrade of liberalism,

01:34:38

Arminianism, pietism, mysticism, revivalism, and synergistic decisionism.

01:34:49

Who were the major personalities, events, trends, and movements that got the Southern Baptist Convention into the lead position of moderate evangelicalism?

01:34:58

What key things need to happen to restore the Southern Baptist Convention to the historical and traditional doctrinal orthodoxy of their founders?

01:35:05

I have a feeling we should leave this question for the next time you're on, because it's going to take an hour, at least, for you to address the multifaceted question here, but if you could just comment, at least in a summary fashion, to what this person,

01:35:20

Revenant Grace, has asked you. Yeah, I'll try to do so. It's a very good question. To be clear, in 1845, when the

01:35:29

Southern Baptist Convention was formed, you had about 293 delegates who assembled in Augusta, Georgia, and they signed off on an agreement to form what we know as a cooperative movement of Baptist churches to form a convention that would be used for the purpose of missions and discipleship.

01:35:51

So think of mission agency and, again, the formulation of training ministers for the gospel ministry.

01:36:00

So you have the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary that would come as a result of that. All 293 of those particular individuals came from churches or associations that had, for their confession of faith, the 1689

01:36:16

London Baptist Confession of Faith, which is very much a Calvinistic Reformed document that just summarizes a clear articulation of the faith.

01:36:29

And so, again, the Southern Baptist Convention was founded by Calvinistic individuals,

01:36:38

Calvinistic ministers. And then you have, over the years, you have individuals who are coming to serve as presidents of, say, the

01:36:48

Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and the convention as a whole that were very much

01:36:53

Calvinistic or Reformed, whatever particular term you'd like to embrace in their soteriology.

01:37:00

Through the years, you had a downgrade that did happen. You did have, you know, a lot of pragmatism that crept its way into the life of the convention as the convention grew.

01:37:11

You did have, and let me be clear about this, that although the convention was founded by Calvinistic ministers and members, you did have a couple of different streams that were flowing into the convention.

01:37:23

So you had some that were less Calvinistic than others, but you still have, over the years, you still have a large number, a large percentage, as the convention grew, of Reformed -minded people.

01:37:38

But through the years, what you have is you have a breakdown of that particular movement. You have pragmatism that crept its way into the thinking, and eventually that led way to liberalism.

01:37:51

And so then you have, you know, such, you know, banners or mottos or themes, like in 1954, for instance, the

01:38:02

Southern Baptist Convention had a specific theme called a million more in 54. And again, you just have this idea of just seeing how many people you can baptize, and that led to an awful lot of unconverted church members.

01:38:16

And then what that eventually leads to is a lot of liberal professors and liberal presidents at the seminary level, and then you have, you know, you just have large problems that eventually result in people like Billy Graham, who would say later that he believed that maybe 85 % of those who attend church on a regular basis are not genuine believers.

01:38:40

And then you have W. A. Criswell, who was a Southern Baptist, and a very influential Calvinistic Southern Baptist, by the way, who would eventually say that he would be surprised to find 25 % of his church, and he pastored the large

01:38:53

First Baptist Church of Dallas, Texas. He would be surprised to find 25 % of his church in heaven.

01:38:58

So you have a downgrade that happens as a result of pragmatism, and, you know, this idea of pragmatism was the idea of just seeing how fast we could grow and doing what we need to do, just whatever works, do it, so that we can, you know, grow and become larger.

01:39:18

And so, unfortunately, the heritage of the Southern Baptist Convention today is being challenged by people like Eric Hankins, who are saying that we need to extract documents like the

01:39:32

Abstract of Principles, which was the first founding document of the Southern Baptist Convention, and still to this very day, it undergirds the very ministry of the

01:39:44

Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, which was the first seminary of the SBC. And so he's making statements like that he thinks that there needs to be a loyal opposition to Calvinism in the

01:39:57

SBC, and there needs to be an extraction of that document that would prevent ministries like the

01:40:04

Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and Albert Mohler from teaching, you know, from their historic position from which it was founded.

01:40:13

And so I find this to be a very troubling trend and something that we need to address, quite frankly. Yeah, and it's actually, there is something really seriously absurd about it.

01:40:24

It'd be one thing if we were talking about the Nazarene denomination or the

01:40:29

Wesleyan denomination, where somebody could legitimately say, this Calvinism has nothing to do with the roots of our denomination, nor of the namesake of this denomination,

01:40:42

John Wesley, who adamantly opposed things like unconditional election and limited atonement.

01:40:48

So therefore, we must, as brothers in Christ, lovingly expel our dear brothers who disagree with us on these serious issues.

01:40:58

That'd be one thing. You could understand that. It would probably be the best thing for a Calvinist to leave those denominations if faced with that kind of aggression.

01:41:07

But this is ridiculous with the Southern Baptist Convention, whose history is steeped in Calvinism. Yeah, absolutely.

01:41:15

And you have people like Eric Hankins and others who have now formed a particular movement within the

01:41:23

SBC called Connect 316, and they have a website and they have all this core values, so to speak, where they're trying to say things like, we believe that God loves everyone,

01:41:36

Christ died for the sins of every person, and anyone can be saved.

01:41:43

And what they want to do is they want to beat that drum, because to the average superficial Southern Baptist, that sounds good.

01:41:51

You know, God loves people and anybody can be saved. The problem is it's just theologically inconsistent and incorrect.

01:42:00

For instance, does God love everyone? Well, in a general way, he loves all of his creation, but he doesn't love everyone in the same way, just the same as Eric Hankins doesn't love people down the road in the same way that he loves his wife or his children.

01:42:16

And so God is capable of loving in distinct ways, and so he loves all of creation in a general way, but he loves the elect in a very special way.

01:42:29

And so, absolutely not. We're not going to say that God loves everyone without distinction.

01:42:37

The only way that somebody professing to be a Christian could possibly logically and consistently have that view is if they are a universalist.

01:42:45

If they believe that hell will be empty, then they could have that opinion, but it makes no sense to say that there is going to be a hell that is inhabited by countless billions of people and say that God loves them in the same way he loves those in heaven.

01:43:02

It doesn't make any sense at all. Well, you have to do a theological tap dance and all types of things to get around the idea that God actually did hate

01:43:10

Esau, and he actually did love Jacob, and those things are not the same.

01:43:16

And so, it's just theologically incorrect to try to dance around that type of language in the

01:43:22

Bible. And then furthermore, the idea that Christ died for the sins of every person, that, once again, is just biblically inconsistent.

01:43:32

It's wrong. And again, you have clear texts, like, say, in Mark 10 45, where you see that it clearly states that the

01:43:41

Son of Man, he literally gave his life as a ransom for many.

01:43:46

Now, it could have clearly stated he gave his life a ransom for all, but it doesn't state that.

01:43:53

It says that he gave his life a ransom for many. And again, you see this in the Old Testament, in Isaiah 53, in the classic suffering servant passage, in Isaiah 53 12, where you see the prophecy about Jesus as he bore the sins of many.

01:44:08

Now, again, he could have used the Hebrew word for all. He chose not to, because the theology is that Jesus laid down his life for the sheep.

01:44:18

And you can't, you cannot theologically, with theological precision, make the assumption and make the statement that Christ died for the sins of every single person.

01:44:28

Again, as you mentioned before, that would be what we call universalism. Yes, and if God loves people in hell the same way he loves people in heaven, well, as the old saying goes, with friends like that, who needs enemies?

01:44:42

And I could remember a friend of mine who is a vehement anti -Calvinist.

01:44:49

I can remember listening to a radio program that he had, where he was shouting his accusations against Calvinism at the top of his lungs, and he brought up John the

01:45:04

Baptist. He says, you see, John the Baptist said, behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

01:45:12

And I said to him later on in conversation, well, let me just change the inflection on that statement.

01:45:18

How about, behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Obviously, the world has to be those from out of every tribe, tongue, and people, and nation.

01:45:29

It can't be every single person, because do you believe that Christ has taken away everyone's sins?

01:45:36

I mean, you can't if you believe in hell, right? No, I mean, absolutely you can't.

01:45:42

It just doesn't make sense. And again, people like Hankins are making statements that are just completely inconsistent with what

01:45:49

Calvinists actually believe. So again, according to his latest talk, again, it's published online, and you can find it if you just Google Eric Hankins and the traditionalist statement, you can find his latest talk on some

01:46:04

Southern Baptist website. But he makes statements where he states that Calvinists, if you are genuine

01:46:13

Calvinist, then you can't give a genuine offer of the gospel to every person. Well, that's simply not true.

01:46:20

You see, we believe that every single one of the elect will indeed be saved, but we also believe that not one of the non -elect will be saved.

01:46:32

But not one genuine Calvinist is walking around looking for the elect so that they can just preach the gospel to the elect.

01:46:40

They're looking to preach the gospel indiscriminately to every person and passionately call for everyone to repent and then trust

01:46:49

God to do the work of saving grace in the hearts of people to whom he's elected.

01:46:55

And so again, the idea and the assumptions and the false statements that are being thrown out and leveraged against Calvinists are just completely historically and theologically inconsistent, and it's time that people actually say something about this.

01:47:13

Yes, I definitely want you to come back to address a lot of the specific statements that were made in that article by this specific anti -Calvinist that you're discussing, because I was looking over it and there were some caricatures and things in there, and I'd like to address everything that he said at a future date.

01:47:33

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And Revenant Grace, please give me, off the air, your full name and your full mailing address so we can mail you a free copy of the

01:47:44

New American Standard Bible, since you are a first -time questioner on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:47:50

You are eligible for that, as we give to all of our first -time questioners, so please make sure you give us your full name and mailing address.

01:47:59

We will not identify you on the air. It's obvious you want to remain anonymous, so that's fine. And Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service will ship that out to you as soon as we get your full name and mailing address.

01:48:10

That's cvbbs .com, cv for Cumberland Valley, bbs for BibleBookService .com.

01:48:15

Look for that on the return shipping label on the package in the mail that you will receive,

01:48:22

God willing, within a week or so, if you give us your full mailing address. We have a first -time questioner again,

01:48:30

Brandon in Franklinton, North Carolina. Good afternoon, Mr. Arnzen. Love the show.

01:48:36

I have been listening for several months now, but I rarely get a chance to listen live. I grew up in a traditionalist

01:48:42

Southern Baptist Convention Church. However, I am a firm believer in sovereign grace. I have two questions for Pastor Bice.

01:48:49

One of the popular charges against Calvinism is that it kills missions, because who is going to be saved is already decided.

01:48:59

Historical inaccuracies aside, wouldn't this accusation prove too much for any

01:49:04

Arminian or traditionalist? For the Arminian or traditionalist who believes in God's foreknowledge, everything in the future is fixed because God's knowledge of the future is perfect.

01:49:14

This seems like a terrible argument for them to use. Am I missing something? When I try to bring it up to anti -Calvinists, it seems to have zero impact.

01:49:24

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think that what he's stating is spot on. I think that it's at the heart of the issue in this particular conversation, because you have, again, more

01:49:35

Arminian -leaning people or non -Calvinist people that want to suggest that God just looks through time in His foreknowledge, and He sees the actions of people.

01:49:46

And so, therefore, God's not forcing His love upon people.

01:49:52

That's the type of language that they like to use. Well, the problem with that is exactly what the particular individual has stated, is that, you know, just saying that God looks through time and sees what's going to happen, and therefore the person has free will to choose or to not to choose, again, it doesn't change the outcome at all.

01:50:14

And so, what we need to realize is that, again, that type of thinking does not excuse the

01:50:20

Arminian from this particular theological conundrum, or this issue, or this hard spot.

01:50:26

So we need to work to find out, what does that word foreknowledge actually mean?

01:50:32

And when we trace it back into the Old Testament, and we see that in the Greek form of the

01:50:38

Old Testament, the Septuagint, when we see that particular word being used of individuals knowing, you know, their wives, for instance, that's talking about something quite different than, you know, a mental apprehension of or knowledge of.

01:50:57

It's talking about a very unique and special love. And so, foreknowledge would be translated and can be actually explained in the sense of that God foreloved specific individuals.

01:51:09

He foreloved them. He lavished His love upon them, not just looking through the tunnel of time as if He's somehow the clockmaker

01:51:18

God that's not involved in the meticulous details of all of His creation.

01:51:25

So again, I think that the person's spot -on with their articulation there. And Brandon's second question is,

01:51:34

Southern Baptist Convention anti -Calvinists often point to the Sandy Creek tradition as being anti -Calvinist.

01:51:41

However, I have heard that this is an exaggeration. Are you able to provide any clarification on this issue?

01:51:48

P .S. I'm looking forward to my first trip to the G3 conference next year.

01:51:54

And Chris, I am spreading the word about Iron Sharpens Iron on my seminary campus at, let's see, it's

01:52:04

S -E -B -T -S, so I guess that's Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. Right, right.

01:52:10

Well, if you could respond to his question. Yeah, I would just say that there is the

01:52:17

Sandy Creek tradition that did flow as a vein into the SBC and that type of thing.

01:52:24

You do have people that were less Calvinistic than others at certain aspects, even in the initial founding of the

01:52:32

SBC. I wouldn't say that it was anti -Calvinistic, that tradition, but it was certainly not a reformed position.

01:52:41

And so it is an accurate statement to suggest that there were far less

01:52:46

Calvinistic people that were a part of the SBC even in the early days. But it's not consistent to state that you have this very angry anti -Calvinistic mindset in the early days.

01:52:59

We don't see that. We see these men coming together for the purpose of reaching the world with the gospel, and so, again, you're not seeing that flavor of an anti -Calvinistic bent in those early days.

01:53:15

Well, thank you very much, Brandon, and you have also won a free New American Standard Bible, so please give us your full mailing address.

01:53:24

Actually, I'm looking at your email right now, and you already gave it to me, so thank you for your full mailing address in Franklinton, North Carolina, in Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com.

01:53:34

God willing, we'll be shipping that out to you, compliments of the publishers of the New American Standard Bible, and compliments of cvbbs .com.

01:53:42

We thank Todd and Patty Jennings for faithfully shipping out all of our winners their free Bibles, books,

01:53:47

DVDs, CDs, and other items when they submit questions. Keep listening to Iron Sharpens Iron, and keep spreading the word in Franklinton, North Carolina, and at the

01:53:56

Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary and beyond. Jenny, again, in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania, has two more questions.

01:54:04

How long can the Southern Baptist Convention, as a denomination, continue to exist with the wide -ranging theological beliefs, such as Word of Faith with Stephen Furtick, Social Justice with Rick Warren, and Arminianism with Leighton Flowers, and Calvinism with Al Mohler?

01:54:23

Isn't this eventually going to cause the division of the Southern Baptist Convention down the line? Well, there's already a division in the

01:54:31

SBC, so it's not that it's going to cause a division, there's already a division. And I think that there can be a healthy division, because once again, we need to remember something, that the

01:54:42

SBC is a cooperative group of churches that come together voluntarily to engage in the work of missions and discipleship.

01:54:52

So I'm not bound to cooperate with the likes of people that, you know, violate the theological position of our own church, or that, by conscience's sake,

01:55:06

I believe would be inconsistent to partner with. So I'm not bound to support every single jot and tittle of the

01:55:13

SBC. I can pick, and I can choose, and that's perfectly acceptable. So again, there is a division there.

01:55:21

The division is becoming more apparent, it's becoming more passionate, you might say, on many different levels.

01:55:30

I do think that it's healthy to have a known division in the

01:55:35

SBC, because again, we're not always going to agree on every issue. But the question becomes, will the convention continue to be unified together in general ways moving forward?

01:55:48

And that's yet to be seen. Again, it is very possible that we could see a split in the

01:55:53

SBC in the future. I don't, you know, I don't look forward to that type of thinking.

01:55:59

Could that be healthy? Well, again, we're not talking about promoting the split of a local church.

01:56:07

We're talking about, again, what we might consider to be a convention of churches or a parachurch ministry.

01:56:14

Could it be healthy? Well, some say that it could be healthy. Again, I want to advocate as much as I can unity among the group of churches as possible, but again, as long as you have people like Eric Hankins that are going to be permitted to write things like he's writing and say things that he's stating without any pushback from the more popular voices within the

01:56:38

SBC that are more Calvinistic in their positions, then the more likely we're going to have a split in the future.

01:56:44

So I think that we need to have more voices speak up and push back and say to Eric and to others that this is just theologically and historically inconsistent, and it's wrong, and it's doing nothing but creating a spirit of divisiveness within the

01:56:58

SBC. And we have a final question from Jenny that requires a very brief answer. Paige Patterson, president of the

01:57:05

Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, stated that Baptists who adopt Calvinistic theology and practice ought to consider joining another denomination,

01:57:14

Presbyterianism. In fact, he is promoting a statement of the traditional Southern Baptist understanding of God's plan of salvation, which is strongly anti -Calvinistic.

01:57:22

What do you make of this? Well, I think we have to be careful not to take Paige Patterson's words out of context.

01:57:30

I do know that he did make a statement. He did apologize and try to restate what he intended.

01:57:37

But here's the point. I would just encourage, if I were talking to Paige Patterson, I would say,

01:57:43

I want to know what you think about B .H. Carroll. B .H. Carroll was, again, the founding president of the

01:57:50

Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, and he insisted that the school be founded upon, quote, the rocks of predestination.

01:57:59

So we need to ask people like Paige Patterson what he thinks about B .H.

01:58:05

Carroll. Well, sorry, Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, and anybody else whose question could not be asked and answered today.

01:58:13

We just ran out of time, but Pastor Josh Bice will be on the program, God willing, in the near future.

01:58:19

We love to have him come back often, and as I said, he's become one of my favorite guests. What would you like to say in summary,

01:58:26

Pastor Bice, in the next minute? I would just simply state that to all of your listeners that when it comes to the subject of homosexuality or it comes to the subject of parsing and trying to articulate where we stand theologically within a group of churches, such as the

01:58:43

Southern Baptist Convention, we need to do so with a spirit of charity and love, and we can. So to the homosexual, we need to treat them like a human being, and we need to have a genuine desire to see them converted and come to Christ.

01:58:55

And then second of all, to our brothers and sisters that we might not agree with wholeheartedly,

01:59:01

I think we need to treat them with as much charity as possible and love as possible, and work together when we can to reach the world with the

01:59:09

Gospel. And I think that if we can do that, then we'll be better off in the long run. And by the way, Pastor Josh Bice, God willing, will be back as our guest on Monday, September 4th, 4 to 6 p .m.

01:59:20

Eastern Time, so we look forward to that. Don't forget to tune in tomorrow because my former pastor from New York, Mark Romaldi, is going to be on tomorrow to address evil and suffering in a sovereign

01:59:31

God's world. Don't forget to tune in tomorrow. I want to thank you so much, Pastor Josh. I want to thank you,

01:59:38

Buzz Taylor, for being my co -host today. I want to thank especially all those who took the time to write in questions today, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater