July 11, 2017 Show with Josh Buice on “Would Jesus Bake a Cake for a Same-Sex Wedding?” AND “A Response to Anti-Calvinists in the Southern Baptist Convention”

The Show Opens and the Day’s Two Topics

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris.

Arntzen. Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 11th day of July 2017.

I'm delighted to have back on the program someone who has become one of my favorite guests, that's Pastor Josh Bice of Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia. He is a blogger at deliveredbygrace .com and he is the director of the annual G3 conference that is coming up in January where I will be, God willing, with another exhibitors booth and I'm very excited about that and we'll be talking more about that.

And today we are addressing two topics with Pastor Josh. The first hour we are addressing, would Jesus bake a cake for a same-sex wedding? And the second hour we plan to address a response to anti-Calvinists in the Southern Baptist Convention.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Pastor Josh Bice. Glad to be with you, Chris. And in studio with me again is my co-host, the Reverend.

Buzz Taylor. And I'm glad to be here for what sounds like a very interesting.

Conversation coming up. And I'd like to let our listeners know right away the email address for questions. If you have questions for Pastor Bice on these issues, our email address is ChrisArntzen at gmail .com, ChrisArntzen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA. With a topic like this or like these, I could understand why someone may have an occasion for preferring to remain anonymous.

So if it's about a personal and private matter involving either of these issues that we're discussing today, we will grant your request to remain anonymous if that is your wish. But if it is not about a personal and private matter, please give us at least your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

And Pastor Josh, before we go into the subjects at hand, for those of our listeners who are discovering you for the first time, because I have to tell you, Pastor Josh, we have new listeners contacting me now nearly every single day.

It's really exciting to see what's going on here with Iron Trump and Zion. That's very encouraging. But for those of our listeners who have not yet heard about you, tell our listeners about Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia.

Sure, be happy to. We.

Are a local autonomous Baptist church in Atlanta, Georgia, 175 years old this year, associated with the Southern Baptist Convention. Although we predate the Southern Baptist Convention, we're actually older than the convention.

So yeah, I mean, a Baptist church here just west of the Atlanta area. I grew up here as a boy. My wife grew up in the ministries of this church as a young girl as well, and going away to seminary and then pastoring out of state for a number of years in God's providence.

We were called back home to serve the people that had once served us as.

Children, so it's a joy and a privilege. Now perhaps you could explain, because to some folks it might seem like an oxymoronic statement that you made, and they may be scratching their heads, how can you be a completely autonomous church and be a member of the Southern Baptist Convention?

Oh yeah, absolutely.

So the Southern Baptist Convention is made up of autonomous churches that voluntarily agree to working together for the purpose of missions and discipleship. So the convention has absolutely zero sway or authority over the local churches.

Great.

And if anybody either who will be visiting Douglasville, or perhaps this will motivate you to visit Douglasville, Georgia, or if you already live near there, or if you have friends, family, and loved ones that live near there, the website is PraiseMill .com, and that's spelled P-R-A-Y-S-Mill .com, and hopefully we'll be repeating that information for you later on.

And of course we have that event that I mentioned that I'm very excited to attend for the second time, God willing, the G3 Conference. Tell our listeners.

Something about that who have not yet heard about it. Yeah, so the G3 Conference is a theology conference. It's for the local church. It was established and founded about five years ago, really about six years ago, but five years ago was the first conference, or we just finished the fifth conference, you might say it that way, in January.

So the purpose of the conference is really to just come alongside local churches to be an encouragement to their ministries so that we can come together for about three days each January in the Atlanta area and just study theology, have good preaching of the gospel, good singing of the gospel, and really one of the foundational goals of the conference is to help local churches become more healthy.

So more healthy in their methods and more healthy in their theology. Great, and we'll be repeating this, God.

Willing, later on, but for any of you interested in attending the upcoming G3 Conference, go to G3conference .com, G3conference .com, and the dates, the exact dates, are January 17th, which is the all-Spanish edition of the G3 Conference, and then the 18th through the 20th is the English version of the G3 Conference, featuring Paul Washer, Stephen Lawson, Voti Baucom, H .B. Charles, Jr., Tim Chalies, and our guest, Pastor Josh Bice, our mutual friend, Dr. James R. White, Tom Askell, Anthony Metheny, and Michael Kruger, David Miller, Paul Tripp, Todd Friel, Derek Thomas, and Martha Peace.

So if you'd like to register, go to G3conference .com, G3conference .com, and tell them that you heard about the conference from Chris Arnzen and Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. One question I've always wanted to ask, and I don't think that I have yet, about the G3 Conferences, how do you come up with the list of guest speakers?

Is it just because you love these people and what they have to offer to the body of Christ because you're familiar with their writings, you're familiar with hearing them at conferences other than your own, or is there some kind of.

Strategy involved in there? Yeah, so there's really no strategy in the sense of... Secret handshake and all that. Yeah, it's complicated. It's really, it just boils down to the fact that through the years we've established good relationships, me personally and then others as well, be good stewards.

The attendees, men who are capable of rightly handling the Word of God and who would be a blessing to their local church ministries. Again, the conference is not to just be about a conference, it's about the local church, and so we want to emphasize ministries and spotlight preachers and authors who would be a blessing to local churches.

And so many of these men I've grown to love and have good close relationships with, and so really that's the way it.

Works. Great, well I am looking forward to being there. I've already interviewed a number of the speakers that will be there next January, this coming January, and hopefully we'll get a lot more of them on the program before January, and it's always a joy to interview people who are going to be speaking at the G3 conference because they're always very solid and have a lot of important things.

To say. I appreciate that, Chris. I wanted to mention here now, I had a conversation with Phil Johnson yesterday, and so we're going to be making some announcements publicly. We've not done so through social media or any email at this point, but Phil Johnson will also be speaking in the 2018.

Conference as well. Oh great, well I love Phil. I had a great time with him just very recently in New York City when he was speaking at the Foundations conference, the conference of Sermon Audio, and it'll be great to share fellowship with him again.

So now I have another reason to bug him to be on Iron Sharpens Iron again, but he seems to love it a lot because Phil Johnson probably is neck-and-neck with Steve Camp and somebody else. I haven't had Steve on quite a while, but there was a time in my old show where Steve was on at least bimonthly, and Phil Johnson was right there neck-and-neck with Steve as being a frequent guest on Iron Sharpens Iron, and it's amazing that a man with his gifts and his responsibilities and schedule has always been so humble to grant my request to be on the program frequently, sometimes with five minutes notice.

So I will look forward to speaking with him. Well this is an interesting subject that we are starting off the program with. I don't know if that's proper grammar, but would Jesus bake a cake for a same-sex wedding?

Now obviously you are fully aware that this issue of the same-sex wedding cakes has been going on for quite a while now, several years I guess, but I don't think I've ever heard it phrased this way before.

Would Jesus bake a cake for a same-sex wedding? What was the catalyst for you wanting to discuss that today, knowing that this issue, this controversy has been addressed by various Christians in various ways, either in writing or in public meetings and so on?

Why the need to bring this up again? Well it's quite simple to be made about the case. We're in a divided country in America. We're still divided in sex marriage, and again we have another cake baker.

His name's Jack Phillips. He refused to serve, entered his bakery, and for their upcoming wedding, again these are two homosexual men, and so when Jack refused service, then of course there ended up being a lawsuit involved and various other things.

So here recently there was an announcement by the Supreme Court here just recently by appearing with his attorney, by the way, on The View. So I don't think that if I was going to break silence for the first time on an issue like this, that that would be the setting that I would want to go to.

But nevertheless, that's what he chose to do. So he sat in the middle of those women, and they had the conversation, as you can imagine. They went for the jugular on the issue. There were many flagrants of the Word of God and about Jesus himself, and at one particular moment in the conversation, which I think did the right job as they were thrown his way, but at one particular moment in the conversation, he just simply stated that he was insinuating that she was speaking for Jesus.

And so if there's anyone on planet Earth that we don't want speaking for Jesus, it would be Joy Behar. At the end of the day, would bake the cake, or would have baked the cake. Then I just thought, you know, why not write an article that just articulates in quite simple terms why it is that Jesus can still be called the friend of sinners and not serve someone a homosexual wedding cake.

Well, you know, I have a theory of my own that Jesus would have baked the cake, but on the icing it would have said repent in bold letters. And actually not far from telling the truth there, because this is obviously a very tragically prevalent and damning sin that is polluting the earth, and more and more Christians, even those that profess to be conservative and Bible-believing and believe in the inerrancy of scripture, more and more of them are treating this issue with softer and softer kid gloves and are acquiescing to the world's understanding of homosexuality.

And they're treating this issue as this is one of many people groups, not as an activity that God views as unnatural and abhorrent, but it is being more and more viewed, even by professing evangelicals, as a people group.

And you will hear Christians speak about this from their pulpits, and you would get the inclination that they are referring to just one of many national or ethnic or religious groups of people that are subsets of humanity, and this is just another different group.

Isn't that a danger that we are treating a sin in.

This matter? Well, I mean, yes, it's not only in human history, but it's simply false. You know, the foundation of that particular type of thinking just does not hold water. What we need to understand is that humanity, in and of itself, humanity has been swallowed up, as it were, in the sea of depravity.

So all of us have been stained by the sin of Adam. We've all, you know, come from our forefather, and we're all stained with this sin. You know, the Scripture teaches quite plainly that, you know, by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death has passed upon all men, and that all have indeed sinned.

And so as we think about that particular verse, we think about what it means for the whole of the human race, of humanity in and of itself, has been plunged into the deep wells of depravity. As we think about that, we understand that this idea that it's just another subset of humanity, some special group or what have you, that's simply not an honest assessment of the homosexual.

Movement. And Reverend Buzz Taylor has something to say. Even those who would.

Want to take a stand against it, when you consider the pressure that we see here, there's obviously an agenda, because they didn't choose just to go to another baker. But if you are looking at the possible end of your business because of legal expenses and all that, just to fight it, yeah, you're gonna want to shy away from it.

You're gonna want to soften it a bit. That's, you know, people's jobs are at stake, their businesses are at stake here. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. And again,.

You know, even in the interview, you mentioned that he had lost business as a result of this type of controversy that, you know, that he's found himself in the midst of. But the idea that homosexuals are the new black, or the new minority, which again, in this very conversation, they were beating the drum that the homosexual community are the latest and greatest, you know, the minority population in America, and so therefore they must be protected by the law.

Well, the fact is, you know, way to look at the homosexual group as well, or.

That, you know, that particular agenda or movement. Yeah, in fact, I think that the reverse is true as well in regards to people treating this as a people group issue and not as an activity issue or a sin issue.

The reverse is true even, I believe, with those who have nothing but hate and contempt and ill will for homosexuals, because they are forgetting that these are human beings who are sadly involved in an activity and in a sin, and this sin, making this sin even more difficult, I'm assuming, for someone to depart from because of the fact that the world is applauding them while they are involved in this.

The world is telling them, and even many in a number of religions, even religions that profess to be Christian, and even Christians have soft-pedaled this, but you have people applauding them, treating them as if they are an elite group of people, and even on occasion treating them as if they are people with superior morality.

That is why, and I know I referenced this on this program once before, but the local town hall here was voting on whether or not homosexuals should have a special protected status group, or they should be considered that way, as a special protected status group, and a woman got up from the community who was a Christian and she expressed her fear over entering into public restrooms with her children because she never knew who was going to be in there now, and she, then this other woman who got up, she was either a practicing lesbian or at least a strong advocate for homosexuality, either one, and she actually got up and she said that you have, that woman who got up has it all wrong.

The members of the LGBTQ community would never molest a child. They don't do that. It's your heterosexual men who do that. So then I got up after she sat down and I said, did you hear what that woman just said?

You got to look through the fog here of what she just said. That woman just claimed that homosexuals are morally superior to heterosexuals, and she said, and I said to the board there, the town board, I'm the one, according to her, that you have to be suspicious of and you have to treat with fear and apprehension and restriction and discrimination.

People like me, the heterosexual men, we're the ones that you got to be on guard for. Not any of the homosexuals. I mean, isn't this clear that they're making a case that.

They are superior? Well, I think so. I mean, I think that if you just just go on the, you know, about in that particular example and then elsewhere you see it, you know, in various articles and, you know, where they're trying to defend themselves, you know, it comes off that way.

And what we need to realize is that, you know, there's not one particular group of people and not one particular race of people on planet Earth that's somehow superior to sexual sin and sexual misconduct from various types of perversions and, you know, sins of fornication.

But the fact of the matter is simply this, Jesus never celebrated nor condoned any type of porneia, any type of sexual misconduct. Somehow or another that Jesus has progressed in our present culture to now condone that type of lifestyle is simply inconsistent with the Jesus of the Bible.

Amen. Now, I'm.

Sure, I haven't specifically heard this yet with my own ears, but I'm sure that there are people out there, I just know it just from what I see every day on the internet and hear every day, even from, again, sadly, tragically, from professing evangelicals and Bible believers, but I'm sure that there are people out there who are professedly Christian who say, well, absolutely, Jesus would have baked the cake for a same-sex wedding because this will enable him to develop a deeper friendship with these people and more of an ongoing relationship where he will be invited into their lives and into their family gatherings and all kinds of things where he will have more of an opportunity to address these issues and present the gospel to them.

How do you respond to that? Because I know that there must be people out there who think that way. Well,.

Absolutely. Well, the idea that Jesus was, you know, visibly, people even accuse Jesus of being a glutton and a drunkard because he spent time with tax collectors and that type of thing. There's a difference between having a meal with someone and celebrating someone's...

Again, the idea of baking a cake and celebrating, joining in the celebration of something that is very much in contradiction to God's biblical design of marriage and the family is quite different. It's quite different than just entering into a meaningful conversation with someone with the desire to bring them out of the darkness of their depravity and into the light of Jesus Christ.

There is a difference there. So we must make a clear distinction between just having a conversation and spending time with outcasts and fishermen and tax collectors and the idea of going to a wedding or else celebrating, engaging in that celebration by, you know, providing the central aspect of that celebration, which.

Would be the cake. Yeah, and there is a big difference, I'm sure you would agree, between some Christian who works at a gas station or owns a gas station and he fills up the tank of the couple, the same-sex couple, that is about to get married.

He knows that they're on their way to have this ceremony and he fills up their tank and he fills up tanks of everybody else involved in the ceremony and receives payment for doing that. There's a difference between that and making a cake which is a part of the celebration.

This is something that actually clearly gives a signal that I join you in the festivity and the celebration of what you were doing. Isn't there a difference here? That's an.

Absolute difference. In fact, Jack Phillips in this interview, he mentioned the fact that he owns a bakery and he would have served them if they had just walked in and wanted to buy cupcakes or something else in the services to engage in a special service of baking their unique wedding cake for their ceremony and at that point he said, for conscience sake and for the sake of his own belief system, he could not do that.

You know, I'm starting to get the.

Feeling that people who are involved in same-sex relationships and intending to have wedding ceremonies, although I don't believe it is even you could even call it a wedding or a marriage, but I'm getting the the suspicion here that people are doing this.

They're approaching Christian bakeries on purpose because this is really getting out of hand. How many times is this going to keep occurring where Christian bakers are being backed into a corner and being forced to either violate their consciences or act according to their consciousness and receive the seriously bad repercussions for it.

Financially and otherwise? Well yeah, I mean, for instance, I think that it's going to continue as long as this agenda continues and I think that they're just setting the stage for something far greater, which is, you know, an ongoing for the pastor of that local church to engage in oversight of their wedding ceremony.

You know, yesterday, just in fact yesterday, the Church of England voted to lower their guard on the issue of, you know, same-sex marriage and homosexuality. Seeing this ongoing American life but now beyond throughout the world, we're just seeing an ongoing agenda take place here.

So we're not talking about just cupcakes and wedding cakes here, we're talking about something far greater. Religious freedom is at the heart of this particular issue, so while some people might say, well, couldn't you just give yourself the better things and writing articles on, you know, baking wedding cakes and that type of thing?

Of course Jesus wouldn't have done that, but really this is an.

Issue of religious freedom. Yes, it's ironic that liberals who used to believe that people, whoever they were or whoever they are, should have the freedom and the right to act according to their rights and desires, they really, many of them, have become far to the left of liberalism and have actually become totalitarian leftists because they don't want the conservative Bible believing or even those of other more conservative religions to have rights to.

Act according to their convictions and pleasures. Yeah, this has nothing to do.

With outlawing any bakery from making cakes for so-called homosexual weddings. This is about the individual freedoms of people to be able to say, no, I don't want to do that. I find that activity in direct conflict with things I hold precious, my religious faith, the doctrines and beliefs and practices of my deeply held religious faith, and I do not want to do that.

And you would wonder why anybody who is hiring somebody to create something that has an integral part of some kind of a ceremony that they think is very valuable, you would wonder why they would want anybody who would have reservations and would lack any enthusiasm and excitement over creating this, you know, in fact the reverse of that.

That's why you can't help but think that this is being done for publicity stunts and lawsuits because I wouldn't want anybody, if I was getting a cake made for any special occasion and the baker seemed like he could care less about what I was doing and he was like yeah, whatever, I wouldn't want that person to be involved in creating the cake, especially if I was spending a lot of money on it and it was supposed to be intricate and decorated and so on.

Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes perfect sense and I do.

Agree with the idea that a lot of this is just intentional targeting, but again all of this has to play its way out in court and unfortunately I believe that we're just, you know, set to leverage the law against, you know, the Christian community in the United States of America.

All right, we've got to go to our.

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Pastor. Welcome back, this is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is Josh Bice, pastor of Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia, blogger at DeliveredByGrace .com, and the founder and director and speaker at the G3 conference, which is coming up in January the 17th through the 20th, the 17th being an exclusively Spanish edition, and the 18th through the 20th being the English version of the conference.

And again, their website is G3conference .com. G3conference .com. We have two subjects today, we are in the middle of discussing Would Jesus Bake a Cake for a Same-Sex Wedding, and coming up in the second hour, we intend to address a response to anti-Calvinists in the Southern Baptist Convention.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Before I go to any of the listeners who are waiting to have you answer their questions, Pastor Josh, I'm assuming then your answer to the question is that Jesus would not bake a cake for a.

Same-sex wedding. Correct. Yes, I believe that the answer is absolutely not, and the reason why is not...it's simply this, it's not the same as for the least of these, or caring for those who are hungry, or, you know, that type of thing.

It's not the same as feeding the multitude with, you know, a small portion of fish and bread. That's not what we're talking about here. So what we're talking about is entering into a celebration of sin.

Jesus would not contradict himself, he would not contradict his Father, he would not contradict the Spirit, he would not contradict the biblical definition of feeding, you know, a multitude of people on a hillside that were hungry is something far different than entering into a celebration of something that violates the very law of God and the.

Word of God. Now I'm assuming that you would agree with me that a Christian should not be bent out of shape and angry and seek to cause trouble and seek to file a lawsuit and have legal actions brought against someone if the scenario was different and somebody, let's say they're celebrating the baptism of a friend or they're celebrating a pastor being installed in their congregation, they want a cake to be created that says Jesus is Lord on the cake and the baker says to you or to whoever it is that is getting this cake, I'm sorry sir but I'm an Orthodox Jew and I really cannot create a cake like this.

It violates my conscience, it violates my beliefs. Shouldn't we as Christians just say, oh I understand completely, I would pray that you come to agree with me on this issue, I love my Lord Jesus Christ and I have a love and compassion for your soul and I would love to see you come to Christ but I understand completely and I will just find another baker.

Shouldn't that be the.

Reaction that we would have? Yeah, I mean if you think about the whole scenario there, I mean you just want to be consistent with your beliefs. You don't want to force someone to violate their own belief system or their own conscience by entering into that particular scenario.

So I think that you're exactly right and I think that for a Christian to be refused service on that basis would not be that we should just go, you know, trying to figure out a way to file a lawsuit as a result of it.

I think that they have the right to refuse us and we should just be happy with that and go find another bakery. Yeah, in.

Fact even if it was somebody involved in homosexual activity that ran the bakery and said, no I think that your religion is a hateful and bigoted one, you might be compelled to, in love and patience, correct that person from their false belief but to go bananas over it and have a legal action brought against them to make your cake, that's too ridiculous.

And going back to something I said earlier, I wouldn't want them to make a cake if they were filled with some kind of disgust over why I was having the cake made to begin with.

It just doesn't make sense. I mean, it's just illogical at that point.

All right, well we have some listeners here that have been waiting to have their questions addressed. We have Rose in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Hello Brother Bice, my question for you is this, do you think that ultimately this will be decided in the Supreme Court here in the United States, at least.

For a time? Yes, this is Rose from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania and she says, do.

You think that ultimately this will be decided in the Supreme Court here in the.

United States, at least for a time? I think that it's going to continue to be an ongoing problem. I mean, as you've already referenced, this is something that's just been, I don't know that this is going to, frankly I'm not looking for it to be something that's just, you know, fades off into the sunset anytime soon.

I think that we're going to see an ongoing pattern targeting by certain groups upon Christians. Again, we should be aware of the fact that we've already been forewarned by Jesus that the world will hate us, and so we should not find that as, you know, a shocking truth or reality when it hits us in the face.

But the fact is, we're seeing this agenda that continues to leverage itself against the Christian Church, and I think that we need to be mindful of, you know, the fact that we don't wrestle against flesh and blood, a very dominant force, the devil and demonic forces that are working their way into political situations, just like we're seeing here in this case with Jack Phillips.

And so don't win these things. In a country that's very much in a moral state of decline and rebellion, don't look for the Christian to always win such. Now, before I go on to a next.

Question, I just have to ask you this question, because I remember hearing this come up a lot. I would hear it come up not only by fellow conservative Bible believing Christians who agree that a Christian baker should not bake a cake for a same-sex wedding, but also by liberals who are opposed to the Christian refraining from that activity.

The question is, should a Christian baker bake a cake for divorced people who are getting married to other spouses? Yeah, I.

Mean, again, I think that that's got a theology and theological implications that have to be fleshed out at that particular level. So the question would be, stand on the subject of divorce and remarriage.

Do they embrace, you know, biblical clauses for divorce and remarriage, or do they believe that if someone enters into a divorced situation, severs their covenant of marriage, that they are not biblically permitted to remarry?

And I think that at that point, if that's their belief, then they should not bake the cake for remarriage. Then at that point, I think that they, you know, do have the freedom to engage in, you know, the act of baking that cake.