April 18, 2023 Show with Jim Domm on “A Retiring Pastor Give Advice & Counsel to Men in Ministry”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father

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James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister

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George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

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This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and direct it to happen in view and conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is

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Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 18th day of April, 2023.

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First of all, let me give you a praise report about the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon that took place last Thursday, and the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Bible Conference that took place Friday through Sunday.

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The Lord certainly, very palpably, and very vividly and vibrantly preserved the purity of the gospel message during all four days of activity with the luncheon and the three -day conference.

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I just thank God for the two servants of Christ whom

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I invited to preach at these events. My dear friend for many years, going back to the early 90s, possibly even the late 80s,

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Dr. William Webster, who is a Banner of Truth author and also the founder of Christian Resources, which can be found at christiantruth .com,

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and also the pastor of Grace Bible Church of Battleground, Washington, which is a confessional

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Reformed Baptist congregation, and also Reverend David T. King, who

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I've also been honored to call a friend since the mid -1990s when he first came out to Long Island to be present at a debate that I organized between Dr.

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James R. White and a Roman Catholic apologist. And David T.

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King is one of the pastors of Christ Church in Katy, Texas, which is a congregation in the

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Presbyterian Church in America, definitely a more conservative -leaning congregation in that denomination.

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And also, David is the co -author of the three -volume, 1 ,200 -page, groundbreaking work that he co -authored with Dr.

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William Webster, Holy Scripture, Ground and Pillar of Our Faith, which contains a great amount of patristic evidence that had never been before translated into the

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English language, proving that the Church Fathers believed in sola scriptura centuries before the

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Protestant Reformation. This was, sola scriptura was not a novel invention of Martin Luther and the 16th century

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Reformers. The Church Fathers believed in this centuries before they were even thoughts in their parents' minds.

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So this is a valuable three -volume work to get, and I highly recommend it. ChristianTruth .com is where you can get it.

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But these two men ministered to the hearts, minds, and souls of the pastors gathered at my luncheon.

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We had well over a hundred pastors there, praise be to God. And from every report

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I have heard over and over again, the men who were in attendance have told me that those messages were exactly what

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I needed to hear, the messages preached by David T. King and William Webster.

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And then, during the three -day conference, these two events were held at two different churches, the luncheon at Church of the

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Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, and I owe them a great debt of thanks for allowing me, once again, to use their beautiful, enormous facilities, and also to have the excited and enthusiastic volunteers from that church, primarily women, who made sure everything ran smoothly for the luncheon.

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But then the three -day conference that followed that was held at Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and I thank

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Pastor Josh Miller and all of those men and leadership for allowing me to use their facilities as the venue for that three -day conference.

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And at both of those events, I heard nothing but glowing reports about how everyone that, at least who informed me of their experience, were thanking

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God for those two men and the messages they brought to those different audiences at those two different churches.

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So, you will be able to get all of these audio links for all of these messages.

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They are already on YouTube, and you can go to YouTube's Church of the

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Living Christ in Loisville, PA YouTube page, and also the

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Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania's YouTube page, and you will see all of the links.

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I'll also be posting all of these links on my ironsharpensironradio .com website, and sharing them in social media as well.

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But I just am still basking in the glow of God's goodness to me and to everyone present, everyone involved at those two events, and I just keep saying hallelujah, because they were such extraordinary events.

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Also, I have some sad news. Those of you who listen to the show regularly know that there is a major sponsor of this program.

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They have at least two advertisements in this show every day, Monday through Friday, and that would be

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Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, pastored by Joan Warcraft, Well, they just renewed their annual contract last week, their annual advertising contract, and one of the elders that was most responsible for the renewal of that contract, since he is a wealthy man in a very small congregation and paid for this advertising renewal out of his own pocket,

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Tim Renshaw. Tim, after corresponding with him about the renewal that was up for sponsoring, he confirmed, yes, indeed,

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Chris, we are sponsoring the show again for a year. We're renewing that contract, and I'm going to wire the entire year's fee into your checking account.

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And the very next day, that money was indeed in the checking account, and then the next day,

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Pastor Joe Warcraft contacted me and said, Chris, is the money that Tim Renshaw wired you in your account?

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And I said, yes. He said, good, praise God, because Tim died last night.

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He died the night after he wired me that money. One of the last acts of kindness that dear brother performed on this earth was helping

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and that moves me beyond description. Please pray for Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia.

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This loss of their elder, Tim Renshaw, is an enormous blow. He was, in many ways, carrying that church financially, because it's such a small congregation.

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And, of course, beyond that, the personal love that they have for Tim as a family member of the body of Christ in Cumming, Georgia, has no doubt result in broken hearts.

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And I'll obviously also pray for Tim Renshaw's wife and family after this tragic loss.

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He was only 55, I believe, and for all outward appearances,

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I have not heard an update yet, but for all outward appearances, a man in great health who is an active man in his 50s with no apparent symptoms of any kind of an illness.

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So, it's a mystery right now, at least to me, but I will keep you updated on how this brother went home to the

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Lord. He may have just been taken home to the Lord because the Lord just said, it's your time.

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I don't know if there are any physical reasons or earthly reasons that are known at this point.

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So, please pray for the Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia, and also the family of Tim Renshaw.

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And lastly, before I introduce my guest, Dr. Charles Stanley has passed away at 90 years of age, and I know that that is cause of great sorrow for many people, obviously, especially for the congregation where he pastored and his family.

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I must say, and I hope that no one is angry at me for saying this at the announcement of Dr.

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Stanley's death, but I had very serious and numerous disagreements with Dr.

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Stanley on very important, in fact, vital issues of faith. But, having said that,

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I know that the Lord nonetheless used him in my life as a young Christian to especially motivate me to dive into the

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Scriptures myself and to study them more deeply. He was one of my favorite radio and television

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Bible teachers as a very new Christian, and I do thank

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God for the way he used Dr. Stanley to minister to me personally.

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So whenever we hear of the passing of someone that we may have had very serious disagreements with, we should not write off the person entirely and recall the blessings that we may have received through that person as a vehicle in God's hands at some point in our lives.

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But today I have returning after a very long absence—it's been so long, neither my guest nor myself even remember the last time he was on the program—but

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I'm so thrilled to have Jim Dahm back on the program, Jim Dahm, who until tomorrow will have served as pastor of Englewood Baptist Church of Englewood, New Jersey for 28 years, and he is going to be addressing,

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Retiring Pastor Gives Advice and Counsel to Men in Ministry After Nearly Three Decades of Experience, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Orange Shrub and Zion Radio, my dear friend,

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Pastor Jim Dahm. Hi, Chris. Thank you for having me on today. Oh, it's my pleasure.

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I thank you for agreeing to come on right on the heels of your full retirement from the pastorate at Englewood Baptist Church, which

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I believe, if I'm not mistaken, you said is tomorrow is the date that makes it official? To be very technical, yes, it is tomorrow, yes.

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And why don't you please tell our listeners about Englewood Baptist Church in Englewood, New Jersey, because in spite of your departure from there as an elder, you no doubt still very enthusiastically promote that congregation as a biblically faithful church where people should even seek membership if they live in that area if they are not already members of a biblically solid church.

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So tell us about Englewood Baptist Church of Englewood, New Jersey. Certainly. Englewood Baptist Church is about 15 minutes away from the

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GW Bridge. You can get over there into Manhattan in about 15 minutes if the traffic is good.

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The church itself was founded in 1935, and it began as a fellowship meeting for prayer in homes in the city of Englewood.

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And eventually they joined the Conservative Baptist Association. And right around 1985 through the early 90s, the church came through a period of biblical reformation.

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And that took place under the leadership of a student who was in the Trinity Ministerial Academy. Probably later

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I'll be telling you about my experience in that institution. But it took place under the leadership of another academy student, and during that time the

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Second London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689 was formally adopted as the church's doctrinal statement.

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So by the time I came to Englewood in 1995, the table was set. The previous pastor did a great job in bringing the people to understand

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Reformed truth, and there was a core group of people there by the time I got there who were committed to Reformed and Baptistic distinctives, and it was a great delight for me to come into this setting and minister in a place where there was understanding and agreement about these things.

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As far as the membership, I think we've got about 30 members right now, ranging in age from the late 20s to mid -90s.

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And we have maybe 50 to 60 people, I think, in attendance on Awards Day morning. We have visitors every week.

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There are some that have attended for years and years and years, and they remain unconverted.

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That's a grief to us. We pray for them regularly. There are two other elders besides myself,

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Ron Abrahamson. Ron has been at Englewood forever. He came into the eldership in the summer of 1998, about three years or so after I came.

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And before that, he served as a deacon in the church, I think from the early 80s.

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So he's had a long term of service in one way or another in that church there. He's a contractor.

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He's a very wise and godly man. I have so much appreciated working with him.

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I've learned so much from him. And he owns the truth. He doesn't have formal, like seminary training, theological training, but he's a man who has sat under good preaching ministries over the years, and he owns the truth.

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And God has really blessed us and helped us in our ministry to God's people. And then a second elder, in 2018, we installed a third elder in the office.

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His name is Amos Gibello. And Amos is a partner in an accounting firm.

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His family actually came to us in 2015 from Trinity Baptist Church in Montville, New Jersey.

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And it was with the understanding that we would be looking at him possibly for the eldership in the future.

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But no promises were made. There were no strings attached. We made that clear at the beginning, but neither were we hiding the fact that we were considering him possibly, looking at him for leadership and ministry in the church in the future.

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And so he has been with us since 2015, 2018, he came into the eldership, and he will be actually moving into the full -time position once I'm gone.

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He's already started the transition. And just a little bit about Amos, his family, they are missionaries.

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His parents and also his brother are missionaries in Papua New Guinea, and they've been there for many years.

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We also have two deacons, Tony Volo, Mike Soulios, and I'm trying to think what else

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I should say at this point. I think that's pretty much it. Good deacons. There's a third deacon, a third man we're going to be examining tomorrow night at our annual meeting for the diaconate.

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We have every reason to expect he will come in unanimously. A young man who grew up in the church.

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Such an encouragement to see someone who grew up in the church and see them coming into the church and taking up positions of leadership in the church.

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So that's kind of a thumbnail sketch. Now, I don't know how common an Italian name

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Volo is, V -U -O -L -O, but is Tony in relation to my very good friend

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Chuck Volo? Yes. Yes. Tony and Chuck are brothers. Oh, wow. I've known

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Chuck since the late 1980s when I used to pastor a church in Pennsylvania.

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We first met, 1989 we first met. Tony was actually here at Englewood before I was.

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The Lord saved him around 94, and I think he became a deacon in 2001, 2002, somewhere around there.

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But yeah, they're brothers. And actually, their mother is a member of the church and is 95,

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I believe. And she's one of the older members in the church. Wow. Yeah, Chuck was there as he normally is at my biannual

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Iron Sherpins Iron Radio free pastor's luncheon. He was there last week, always with the beaming smile, always encouraging.

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And just to let our listeners know, to give a plug to that fine congregation where Chuck pastors, it is

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Gospel of Grace Community Church of Kinzers, Pennsylvania. And the website is gospelofgracecommunitychurch .com,

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gospelofgracecommunitychurch .com. And one fascinating thing, among many fascinating things about Pastor Chuck, is that he has a ministry to the

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Amish and has been used of God to lead a number of Amish people out from that false religion of works righteousness into the peace of God that can only come through a genuine faith in Christ that places its sole trust on Christ's finished work on Calvary.

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And I've even interviewed a couple of the Amish folks that Chuck has been used of God to bring to Christ.

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So just thought I'd throw that out there. If anybody wants more details on the

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Englewood Baptist Church that we were just discussing where Pastor Jim Dahm, until tomorrow, is one of the elders, it is ebcnj .com,

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ebcnj .com, ebc for Englewood Baptist Church, nj for newjersey .com.

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And hopefully I will remember to repeat that towards the end of the program. Normally, we only have our guests on Iron Trip and Zion Radio provide a summary of their salvation testimony when they are first -time guests.

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But since it's been so long since you've been on, and there is a likelihood that this whole new audience that we have with Iron Trip and Zion Radio has not heard that testimony,

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I would love for you to give a summary of your salvation testimony, including the kind of religious atmosphere, if any, in which you were raised, and what kind of providential circumstances our

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Sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you. Certainly.

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I was born in Rochester, New York, and if you know anything about that city, they used to have these very successful corporations there,

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Eastman Kodak, Xerox, Rochester Products, Bausch & Lomb. And I actually grew up in a small town north and west of Rochester named

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Hilton, a very small town. I was not raised in a Christian home. There was no prayer, there was no

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Bible instruction, but outwardly we were a very moral family. Ours was a typical white suburban lifestyle of the 50s and 60s.

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I don't know how many of your listeners are familiar with the show Leave it to Beaver, but just watch

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Leave it to Beaver. That was our life. That's the way things were. And if you know, the 60s were very materially prosperous years, but they were also unsettling years.

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And we were in church. We went to church every Sunday morning. But like I say, we did not have a

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Christian home. It was a liberal Baptist church. I don't want to name the particular denomination, but a social gospel was preached there, not the biblical gospel.

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And I remember in sixth grade, I think it was when I was in sixth grade, in the Sunday school class, the children's

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Sunday school class, Time magazine, I don't know if you remember, if you're old enough, Time magazine had a cover,

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Is God Dead? And so this was the subject for that class in Sunday school.

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But in spite of all the liberalism, John 3 .16 and a few other well -known

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Bible verses were read each week. And the Lord was pleased to use just the reading of those

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Bible verses and the little truth in those Bible verses, the few that were read, to keep my conscience somewhat tender and to impart to me some measure of God consciousness.

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And I remember as a young boy, and even into my preteen years,

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I had this awareness of God, but at the same time—this is going to sound very strange, it is strange—I used to actually imagine in my mind a wall in the sky.

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And I was building a wall and putting the bricks in that wall, and God was on the other side of that wall, and I was on this side.

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And I used to actually imagine that in my mind, I'm blocking God out.

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I don't want God in my life. And I just have to think, Romans 1 .18,

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men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, that's what I was doing, very literally in my mind, blocking

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God out of my life. And I remember when I was around seven or eight,

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I would sit in church and I wanted eternal life, which for me was nothing more than living forever, wanted to live forever, and wanted to know there would be something more after this life.

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I was terrified of dying. And I sensed that most of the people there in the church, they were not serious

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Christians. And I also noticed that Monday through Saturday, I was not a serious

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Christian. I thought very little about eternal life or Jesus Christ. And so eventually, that hypocrisy and that duality in the way

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I was living drove me to conclude that if I wasn't going to be a good Christian, I'm not going to be a

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Christian at all. And so it was like a slingshot effect, and I began to plunge myself into all kinds of wretched things.

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I became very rebellious as a teenager, and my parents, my dear parents,

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I gave them a really, really bad time. And my teenage years occurred simultaneously with the so -called hippie movement.

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And you remember, those were very unsettling years. If you were alive then, you'll remember. The war in Vietnam was hanging over everybody's heads.

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Presidents Johnson and Nixon were in office. There was the assassinations of the

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Kennedys and Martin Luther King. There was the Cold War, the threat of nuclear war, college demonstrations.

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It was a very frightening time to live. And I remember growing up thinking the world is just a really scary place to be.

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And so I began to get more rebellious toward my parents, more rebellious to God, and I adopted the outward trappings of the hippie lifestyle.

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Long hair, the jeans, the wire -rimmed glasses, the music, the drug use, the rebellion, the immorality, and all the other attendance of that lifestyle.

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And thinking back on it, I think what I was really doing is trying to find some identity. And I think it's called, by some people, it's called ego screaming.

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I don't know if it's called that anymore. But that's where you adopt a lifestyle, not because you understand the ideology, not to make a social statement, but just out of an unmet need for identity and recognition.

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So you connect yourself to a group. And that's what I was doing. And so not surprisingly,

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I got myself in a whole bunch of serious trouble. And through a series of very difficult providences, the

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Lord saved me, I believe, when I was 20 years old in the summer of 1974. I remember reading the book,

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The Late Great Planet Earth. And I remember thinking, even at that age, thinking,

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I don't think really a lot of this is true, what this man is saying about the book of the Revelation. But I thought, still,

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I know that I'm not right with Jesus Christ. If he came back today, I'm done for. And so there was a heavy sense of guilt and conviction reading that book.

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And my conversion occurred partly through the influence of my mother. And she had professed faith in Christ a few years earlier.

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I think she was 40 when she was converted. And she was involved in some home Bible studies and prayer meetings.

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And so I knew that she wanted me to become a Christian as well. I didn't want any part of it.

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I thought Christians were some of the most foolish, deluded people in the world. I knew

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I was foolish and I had problems, but I thought they were even worse. And so I didn't want any part of Christianity.

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But the Lord really had to humble me and take me through some very deep waters, difficult waters.

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And I remember early on reading Psalm 119 .67, before I was afflicted, I went astray.

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But now I keep your word. And then verse 71 of Psalm 119, it is good for me that I was afflicted, that I may learn your statutes.

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But the Lord really had to deal hard with me in those years. But then my conversion, in many ways, was a conversion in ignorance.

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Because I didn't really know who Jesus was. I didn't really understand what he did on the cross.

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I only had a very general sense of need. I knew that something was really wrong with me.

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I knew it wasn't my body, it wasn't my mind. I knew it had to do with my attitudes, my values, my character.

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I knew that it was moral and spiritual. And I knew that nobody could help me except God.

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I knew a doctor, it wasn't a matter of going to a doctor. My parents couldn't help me. Even a pastor couldn't help me.

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Only God could help me. And I didn't really understand the gospel until some years later.

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You know, sometimes I love the Puritans. I love the Puritans. But sometimes in the

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Puritans you read what I would call textbook conversions, where the law comes to you and plows you up, and there's conviction from the law, and then you come to faith in Christ, and then you're justified, and then you're filled with peace and a sense of forgiveness.

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And that does happen, but that's not what happened with me. I didn't know anything.

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And I was not in a good church at that time where I could really get good teaching. And so all

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I knew was that I need God. I knew that somewhere in the Bible, something had happened to me, and somewhere in the

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Bible was an explanation of what happened. But I didn't know where to go. In fact, Jim, could we pick up where you left off when we return from our first commercial break?

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Sure. I just remember it is at the point where you were referring to the Puritans and the fact that you just didn't know where to go when you became convicted of certain sins and failures in your life.

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But we'll pick up right at that point. If anybody has questions, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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And I could readily understand a subject like this evoking personal and private questions from especially from those who are in pastoral ministry or who are entering into it.

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And so we will grant your request to remain anonymous if it is indeed a personal and private matter.

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But if you're asking general questions, please include your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

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We'll be right back with Jim Domme. Don't go away. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

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G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I have been preaching, teaching, writing about and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

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I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

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And there's more great news. Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 % discount off the registration fee.

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Go to g3min .org, that's g3min .org, and enter promo code

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Chris Arnson and I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd at the

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G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God. Make sure you stop by the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnson while you're there.

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Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR for your 30 % discount off the registration fee.

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Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church.

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So that's royaldiadem .com mention Chris Arns and of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We are now back with my friend

42:32

Pastor Jim Dahm. And if you heard the earlier part of the program, you would know that we are discussing a retiring pastor who gives advice and counsel to men in ministry after nearly three decades of experience as pastor of Englewood Baptist Church in Englewood, New Jersey.

42:53

His last day as one of the elders at that fine congregation is tomorrow. And we are delighted that he was able to squeeze us into his schedule to present this very important topic.

43:06

And right before the break, Pastor Dahm, you will likely remember that you had just finished saying how much you love the

43:13

Puritans but you did not know where to go in regard to these guilt feelings of not living up to God's standards, etc.

43:24

So if you could pick up where you left off. Sure, yes. So I didn't really understand the gospel until some years later.

43:32

I think it was August of 1974 that there was some kind of change that began. I think that that's when

43:39

God saved me but I didn't understand the gospel until years later. I didn't understand much at all about sin or the cross or Jesus Christ who he is, what he has done.

43:51

But I had a Bible and I began to devour it. I loved the Bible and I wanted to learn the

43:57

Bible. I knew that the answers to life, if I could put it that way, the answers to life are in that book and I wanted to learn that book.

44:04

And I knew that something happened to me and somewhere in that book was the explanation of what happened.

44:10

I remember sitting at a kitchen table one night I had a little Billy Graham tract The ABCs of Salvation A.

44:18

Acknowledge B. Believe C. Confess And I was just totally ignorant didn't know anything about the

44:26

Bible but wanted to learn. And so I started memorizing passages of scripture and some of that early memorization has stuck with me to this very day.

44:37

And within a period of just a few weeks I've read the whole New Testament a good part of the way through the

44:42

Old Testament. And back then again this might sound strange to some people but you know you have this troubled life you're having all these problems all these issues you come to faith in Christ and now it's supposed to be everybody lives happily ever after but it was far from that I mean that was just the beginning of a rough and rocky pilgrimage and I spent the first three years of my

45:08

Christian life in a Bible church and again I won't mention the particular denomination but a

45:14

Bible church which was something new for me and my parents because we had never gone to a

45:19

Bible church before now we're going to this church that claim to believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God and there were some very dear

45:27

Christians there I know that the pastor genuinely loved me the people there loved me but they really weren't in a position to help me in the ways that I needed to be helped the word of God was adhered to nominally but understanding really good doctrinal understanding and good application of the word it was very shallow their understanding of scripture and sometimes some of the teaching was just plain erroneous and looking back on that time as a very new believer

46:00

I did a lot of foolish things really foolish things and there was no one that really came alongside and faithfully corrected me and I did not receive the kind of pastoral oversight that I should have and I think of that time as a time of delusion we have the

46:19

Bible so we must have the truth and I used to think that but I was ignorant of the biblical gospel and so it wasn't long before the problems returned

46:30

I had all kinds of spiritual problems and God in his very kind providence brought me to a

46:35

Reformed Baptist Church up near Rochester it's a church that no longer exists there is a

46:42

Reformed Baptist Church in Rochester some of the people in that church were in this church before but that church

46:48

I went to no longer exists The one that's still there is Pastor John Price's congregation

46:53

That's correct, Grace Baptist Church Yes, I've interviewed him on the program on several occasions

46:59

I absolutely loved his book New Light on Old Worship Yes, yes

47:06

John and I are very good friends and many of the people in that church were in the other church near Webster but a friend of my mother's attended that church that's how we got to go there a very good

47:22

Christian friend of my mother's and she said well maybe you'd like to counsel with the pastor so I had a bad attitude

47:29

I didn't think he could really help me and boy did that change the first session I was like a pane of glass he could see right through me he said stuff to me that nobody's ever said to me before and I knew that this man knew what he was talking about and the preaching was powerful

47:45

I knew that I could really learn the Bible there and that's all I cared about at that time, I wanted to learn the

47:50

Bible and it was there that I began to learn who Jesus Christ is and began to get really good sound biblical doctrine and feeding on the word of God and growing spiritually and also it was there that I met my precious wife we've been married now for 43 years so that's pretty much my conversion experience

48:13

When and how did you realize God had placed upon your heart a call to the pastoral ministry yeah so I continued attending the church in Webster for a year or two and I just had a growing desire to minister in some formal capacity that's the way

48:37

I would think of it and I would get excited about things

48:42

I'm like this in life I get excited about things I want to tell people about it but I knew that I needed to learn the

48:50

Bible, I needed training I needed to learn sound doctrine so I received a lot of encouragement from the man who was my pastor at that time

48:59

I had a chance to teach a Sunday school class to some boys and occasionally lead devotionals and Bible studies and then in 1980

49:07

I had my first opportunity to preach in the church but I also was at a dead end vocationally

49:13

I needed to go to school and so I went to school, got a degree in electronics and then a couple of years later

49:21

I began to meet regularly on Saturday mornings with my pastor and we read through Charles Bridges the

49:27

Christian Ministry and Richard Baxter the Reformed Pastor two excellent books and read through those things

49:35

I had hoped that he could teach me pastoral ministry I really didn't have a desire to go to a Bible school or seminary not that that's not a good thing to do but I wanted to learn ministry from a pastor and so at his encouragement

49:50

I applied to Trinity Ministerial Academy in 1984 and Trinity Ministerial Academy doesn't exist anymore it was a ministry to train men for ministry it was a ministry of Trinity Baptist Church in Montville, New Jersey and it existed from 1977 until 1998 and so I applied there in 1984 and by this time

50:20

I'd been working in the research labs at Eastman Kodak for a couple of years we purchased a home and we're getting into this cushy suburban lifestyle but off we went to TMA rented our house out came down to New Jersey and moved here and the adventure began and then after the four years in the school there we returned to Rochester after I graduated from the academy in 1988 and remained in Rochester remained in the church there for almost a year before moving to a church in Pennsylvania and I was there candidating for the ministry, there was an opportunity and my wife and I felt that we should go there so we did and lived and labored among the brothers and sisters in that church for a year they formally recognized me for the office of elder in April of 90 and then for the next four plus years

51:17

I served them as their pastor. Those were very difficult years I'm thankful in one sense because sometimes guys come into the ministry and it's really great at the beginning, there's a honeymoon and then later the trials come and they're just kind of blown away, they can't believe that this is happening, for me it was reverse, we were just baptized in trials and difficulties right from the beginning, but under God those were years of growth and invaluable training and experience,

51:47

God used those things in our lives to mature us spiritually and eventually there were developments in the church what they were

51:55

I can't get into now but there were developments in the church that came to a head in 1994 and so after much thought and prayer and seeking counsel from the elders in Mountville I resigned from the office of elder in that church.

52:08

It was clear that I was not able to minister to those folks in a way that was edifying and I never wanted to force myself on a group of people if they recognize that God has his hand on me and he's calling me then

52:23

I'm great with that but if not I don't want to be forcing myself so I resigned from that ministry and then we moved back to we moved to New Jersey at that time we did not go up to New York State but we moved to New Jersey and then after some time after a few months in New Jersey then

52:46

I was approached by Englewood Baptist Church about supplying their pulpit and after 10 months of laboring among them

52:54

I was unanimously recognized for the office of elder in late 95

53:00

I had known these folks at the church here during my academy years because they were sending academy students over to Englewood which is about 35 minutes away sending them over to preach because they were in need of pulpit supply and so I caught some preaching teeth here at Englewood and I knew these folks and it really was like coming home in a sense because we all knew each other

53:22

We have to go to our midway break you can pick up where you left off when we return but if anybody would like to send in a question of your own to Jim Dom we already have some questions that have been sent in our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

53:38

this is a longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City Florida requires a longer break in the middle of the show because the

53:46

FCC requires of them to air their own public service announcements and other things that localize this show geographically we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials so please be patient with us and we'll be right back right after these messages from our sponsors

54:16

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here I'm very excited to announce that my long time friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta Georgia again for the

54:26

G3 National Conference that's Thursday September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I've been preaching, teaching writing about and defending in live public debates for most of my life the sovereignty of God I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Vody Baucom Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel and Josh Bice founder of G3 Ministries and there's more great news

54:53

Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 % discount off the registration fee go to g3min .org

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that's g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR that's

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G3 I S I R for the 30 % discount. Chris Arnson I look forward to seeing you all

55:15

Thursday September 21st through Saturday the 23rd for the G3 National Conference in Atlanta Georgia on the sovereignty of God.

55:23

Make sure you stop by the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnson while you're there.

55:29

Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR for your 30 % discount off the registration fee

55:56

I'm Dr. Joseph Piper President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary Every Christian who's serious about the

56:08

Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight volume commentary on the

56:14

Theology and Ethics of the Westminster Larger Catechism titled Authentic Christianity by Dr.

56:21

Joseph Moorcraft It is much more than an exposition of the larger catechism It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology

56:34

Dr. Moorcraft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming Georgia and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation

56:44

For details on the eight volume commentary go to westminstercommentary .com

56:51

westminstercommentary .com For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming Georgia visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com

57:02

heritagepresbyterianchurch .com heritagepresbyterianchurch .com Please tell Dr. Moorcraft and the saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming Georgia that Dr.

57:10

Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sent you Hello, my name is

57:19

Anthony Uvinio and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corum, New York and also the host of the reformrookie .com

57:26

website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show like I do you can now find it on the

57:33

Apple's iTunes app by typing Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in the search bar. You no longer have to worry about missing a show or a special guest because you're in your car or still at work

57:43

Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio show at any time day or night

57:50

Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many solidly reformed guests that Chris Arnzen has on the show

57:59

Truth is so hard to come by these days so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news.

58:05

Subscribe to the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio podcast right now. And while you're at it you can also sign up for the reformrookie .com

58:12

podcast and visit our website and the YouTube page. We are dedicated to teaching Christian theology from a

58:18

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58:24

Doctrines of Grace to the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Leviticus the Reform Rookie podcast and YouTube channel is sure to have something to offer everyone seeking

58:33

Biblical truth. And finally, if you're looking to worship in a Reformed church that holds to the 1689

58:39

London Baptist Confession of Faith, please join us at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corum, New York.

58:45

Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Avivio and thanks for listening. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

59:08

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980's is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey pastored by Alan Dunn.

59:18

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world.

59:26

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

59:32

God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

59:37

God -centered focus. Reading, preaching and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy and sobriety.

59:52

Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

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Or call them at 908 -996 -7654 That's 908 -996 -7654

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Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.

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Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. This is

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Pastor Bill Sousa of Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

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Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

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Lord Jesus Christ. And of course the end for which we strive is the glory of God.

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If you live near Franklin, Tennessee and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes or you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby we hope you will join us some

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Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org that's gracechurchatfranklin .org

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

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When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the

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I'm Pastor Nate Pickowitz of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmont and Iron Works, New Hampshire and the

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Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew

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Go to nasbible .com that's nasbible .com to place your order.

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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and let me highlight one of the books that somewhat reflects our discussion today that you can purchase from solid -ground -books .com

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frequently purchase generously and always mention that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio before I return to my guest

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Jim Dahm who is discussing a retiring pastor gives advice and counsel to men in ministry after nearly three decades of experience

01:12:03

I just want to make a couple of very important announcements first of all folks, if you really love this show and you do not want it to disappear from the airwaves,

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I'm urging you please go to ironsharpensironradio .com click support then click, click to donate now you can donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion, if you prefer sending in a physical check to a physical address the old fashioned way via snail mail, there will also be a physical address that appears on your screen where you click support at ironsharpensironradio .com

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where you can mail your checks made payable to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio if you want to advertise with us for your church, parachurch ministry, your business your private practice like a law firm or a medical practice or perhaps it's just a special event that you want to promote whatever it is, as long as it's compatible with what

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I believe I would love to help you launch an ad campaign because we are just as much in urgent need of your advertising dollars as we are in your donations so just send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail dot com and put advertising in the subject line please remember folks, when donating to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I never want anyone cutting in to the finances that you have set aside to give to your own local church where you are a member on the

01:13:23

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01:13:43

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01:14:11

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01:14:41

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01:14:53

and put I need a church in the subject line, that's also the email address where you can send in a question to my guest

01:14:58

Jim Dahm and he is discussing the theme, a retiring pastor gives advice and counsel to men in ministry after nearly three decades of experience, and Pastor Jim you are just about to wrap up your salvation testimony and how you became the pastor of Englewood Baptist Church if you could just wrap that up and we will enter into our phase of the interview where you are discussing your advice and counsel to men in ministry yeah

01:15:30

Chris we basically have finished that previous section, I was right, that was a good breaking point, so we can just proceed ahead if you want.

01:15:37

Great, well we have a listener all the way in California I usually only give the first names of our listeners but since this brother is somebody pastoring a biblically solid church gives me an opportunity to recommend this church to our listeners who live in the

01:15:59

Hanford, California area his name is Pastor Arthur Fox, Pastor of New Hope Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Hanford, California he asks, how did you or would you know when it's time to retire and how did you break your news to yourself and your family let me ask my own question attached to that did the time when you realized it was time to retire, did it have anything to do with tomatoes and rotten eggs being thrown at you while you were preaching just kidding obviously tell us about that well

01:16:39

I'm happy to say no tomatoes or rotten eggs people really don't want me to go but at the same time they're not heartbroken either, it's just a mutual recognition that the time has come and what happened is in connection with Amos Jubello coming to us in 2015 the reason he came was in the event the time comes when

01:17:02

I step aside or whatever happens, he would be in a position to move into the full time position if God wills so it isn't like the church is being left in the lurch by my departure but I have to say that when

01:17:16

Amos first came among us I was not thinking about retirement, I really hate the word

01:17:22

I don't like the word, I'm changing what I'm doing, retirement is not Florida and playing golf, I don't even play golf but the idea was that a man would be in place but I had no plans at that time but I've noticed for myself just in recent years,

01:17:39

I'm getting slower and slower just to prepare a couple sermons on a

01:17:45

Sunday is a huge task for me probably because I need a break

01:17:51

I feel like I need to decompress for a period of time and the way the church is here we're limited in our finances whoever has the full time position has got to deliver the goods and I've been delivering the goods nobody's complaining, nobody would even know but I'm aware in myself, greater and greater amount of effort is necessary for me to deliver the goods whenever that is so that was part of what persuaded me and I really felt more recently that I'm getting to the point where I'm not qualified to do what

01:18:30

I'm doing I can do many things as an elder, I can continue as an elder but to be in the full time position

01:18:39

I'm not I'm just not cutting it like I need to certainly not the way

01:18:44

I used to so that was part of the reason for the decision and so I'm trying to think,

01:18:50

I submitted a plan to the elders several years ago and our goal was for Amos, Pastor Amos to take certain courses and get to a certain level of formal training before I would depart and he has done that so it wasn't like I'm running out

01:19:13

I had not been running out, it was nothing quick and the people were first notified of this in a congregational meeting in September of 2020 so it's good for people to have a good, give them a heads up give them a good amount of time to adjust to it and so that's how it came about and there was nothing hasty about it,

01:19:37

I believe it's God's will for me, every man is different a lot of men would not do this they keep going,

01:19:44

I always thought I would just keep going and going but it just has become plain to me that I should not do that And one of the one part of the listeners question,

01:19:56

Pastor Arthur Fox was how did you break the news to your family? Yeah well our children are we have one daughter, she's grown and gone and my wife she sees what

01:20:12

I'm going through every day so I didn't break anything to her it just became part of the conversation and as far as our daughter, we're actually relocating to Massachusetts to live on the same property with them and so this is like a family it's become like a family project, it's been very encouraging the way she has urged us to come there, they have a house with a carriage house attached, it's separate but it's attached and a carriage house is a fancy name for a barn, so we're renovating the barn, we're gonna live in the barn and so that's our situation it's like there was no news to break to anybody

01:20:51

Well thank you Pastor Arthur Fox and I fondly remember you when you lived on the eastern end of the

01:21:00

United States I hope that the Lord is blessing your ministry in Hanford, California if anybody wants to find out more about New Hope Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Hanford California, you can go to newhopehanford

01:21:13

H -A -N as in Nancy F -O -R -D dot org newhopehanford dot org

01:21:21

Go ahead Just a very quick thing when a man is retiring or departing from a church it's so helpful to have leadership in place that's not always possible but in God's providence we're able to do that, so that really took away the abruptness and the shock and the severity of the situation

01:21:41

Okay, we have an anonymous listener who says would you be willing to let our audience know things you most regret regarding mistakes you believe you have made as a pastor over those three decades

01:21:58

Oh yeah we don't have enough time on your show Oh we could have you back

01:22:05

Right, right, right Well, yeah, two things that depress me, one is all the books that I haven't read and the other is all the relationships that I haven't kept up over the years some of the reason for that is the way

01:22:21

I'm put together and the way I do things and I'm quick to say my experience, I don't think is typical by any means and a lot of men could not relate to my experience and they would probably have objections to the way

01:22:35

I've done things, I've spent a lot of time preparing sermons years ago

01:22:41

I would do three on a Sunday we have three services and more recently it's been two and even that is very difficult for me but it's a lot of time spent at the desk and that's a great privilege to preach the word of God, it's a good work it's a blessing to study it's wonderful to bring

01:23:04

God's word to God's people and see them grow in grace, but it does have its liabilities and one of the things is isolation and maybe

01:23:16

I'll just leave that for now you're asking mistakes I've made I suppose if I had to do things over I would try to have more diversity in my ministerial activities at the same time

01:23:29

I don't feel I had a lot of control over that, that's what I was called to do here in this particular church, small church, limited finances only one full time paid position plus having multiple services on the

01:23:44

Lord's day and Bible studies during the week, I did a Bible study at Starbucks for nine years on Thursday nights that's the way it worked out for me and I'm happy with that but I have had being at the desk so much of the time does have its liabilities and I could say a lot about that.

01:24:05

Can you mention any of those things that you think would have been a positive addition to your ministry that involve the phrase diversity in ministry that you just mentioned?

01:24:18

Yeah being able to be more away from the desk and more involved with people more personal involvement with people, that would have been good because at times

01:24:30

I felt isolated, I felt like I was so much at the desk and let me say pastors, they need to spend the time in their study, they need to prepare the sermons and serve up the word of God, it's got to be 16 ounces to the pound, they should not skimp and many pastors do skimp because they're doing all these other things that God hasn't necessarily called them to do you know a gospel minister's prayer in the ministry of the word,

01:24:55

Acts chapter 6 those are the priorities so whatever I say here it's not because I think

01:25:01

I did something wrong, but at the same time there are liabilities that come with excessive time preparing sermons, you actually become isolated from people so that would be one thing maybe different types of ministries, maybe you know small groups are popular, maybe having something more informal where you can have interaction with people that's more spontaneous more discussion, more prayer as opposed to a straight service with preaching and it's all one way

01:25:34

I don't know, but those are just some thoughts. Well I got an idea of something that you should have done you should have bought air time for me to have your own radio program years ago when

01:25:44

I was working for WMCA radio, I'm only kidding There you go We have

01:25:51

RJ in White Plains, New York who says I have observed over my life as a

01:25:58

Christian that pastors unfortunately very often fall into one negative extreme or the other in regard to their time spent as a pastor there are those that neglect their own families because they're always involved in a crisis or another in the congregation and doing visitations and things like that and the other side of that would be those that seem to neglect the congregation entirely because they're always taking care of the needs of their spouses and children how does one avoid either of those extremes which are negative?

01:26:41

That's a good question, but I would agree with that observation it's easy to fall into, this is part of the difficulty, there's so much to do in the pastoral ministry the ministry is hard and there's so much to do, there's endless details and when it comes to emphasizing and prioritizing emphasizing the right things and prioritizing in the right way, who is sufficient for these things?

01:27:07

Every man is going to have his propensities it would be good, one thing I think of it would be good the advantage of having a plurality of elders is having other men around you and maybe discerning deacons or discerning

01:27:22

Christian, mature Christian friends in the congregation you occasionally go to them and ask, look do you see imbalances in my ministry?

01:27:32

Is there anything that you observe about the way I spend my time that maybe warrants a change?

01:27:40

And ask an outsider because sometimes you're not even aware these things are happening, and so getting some good counsel from someone would be a helpful thing.

01:27:50

We have an anonymous listener the anonymous listener says

01:27:56

I do not know you very well, but by reputation I have heard that you have for a long time been a man that has remained ironic and peaceful and gregarious during very uncomfortable and tension -filled divisions amongst the

01:28:15

Reformed Baptist community. I was wondering what kind of counsel you could have for men in the ministry in the 21st century when it seems that the

01:28:25

Reformed Baptist movement is dividing every day. Well, it's true.

01:28:36

I agree with that observation that Reformed Baptists have certainly had their share of trouble and divisions.

01:28:44

It almost seems like if you want to get a good fight going, just get a couple RBs together in the room, they'll find something to pick about.

01:28:51

But it's not that way all the time everywhere. There are many many

01:28:57

Reformed Baptist churches good churches, good men that have this spirit ironic spirit, peaceful spirit.

01:29:06

So I understand what this individual is saying. It's true, but it's not absolutely true and I'm seeing more and more of a spirit of unity and peace among Reformed Baptists.

01:29:21

It's refreshing to my soul. Now what was the question? How can you cultivate that?

01:29:27

Well, it's interesting that you are observing more of a peaceful mindset amongst

01:29:34

Reformed Baptists. While I would agree with that assessment with certain churches and individuals,

01:29:42

I agree with the listener who remained anonymous that on the other side of the coin seems to be a lot more division erupting over different issues that were never issues of conflict before, at least in any kind of major way.

01:29:59

Where it is getting ugly, where Reformed Baptists who had close friendships with men for decades are dismissing them and even publicly mocking them for not being in the same thread of development that they themselves are in.

01:30:23

The new theological insights that they are claiming and the way that they are deriding brethren who have not followed in lockstep along with them.

01:30:35

That kind of a thing. I see a lot more uncomfortable splits, divisions, and tension erupting.

01:30:44

So basically the anonymous listener was just saying... Maybe some of that is my ignorance of a lot of things.

01:30:52

Ignorance sometimes is bliss. Because I've always wanted to keep the mess, keep the trouble outside of our church because there's other things that we have to do.

01:31:04

We have to be worshipping God, we have to be evangelizing, we need to cultivate friendship and fellowship in the church and we don't have time to be fighting all these battles.

01:31:14

Now we haven't always succeeded at that. Sometimes the junk just comes knocking at your door and you can't keep it out and the trouble comes in.

01:31:23

But I've always wanted to do that, just focusing on priorities. Choose your fights wisely.

01:31:30

And I know different men, depending on the issue, if an issue is important enough then a man will feel like he's got to get into the fray and his church will get involved.

01:31:42

On the other hand, that may not be the case. Maybe some of the things that there are differences and disagreements about aren't going to matter all that much in eternity.

01:31:52

I don't know. We have Joseph in South Central Pennsylvania who asks,

01:31:59

What are some essential tools in the realm of Christian literature that you think every pastor should have in their arsenal, also known as their library?

01:32:12

Yeah. The first thing that comes to my mind is

01:32:18

Albert N. Martin's Pastoral Theology. It's three volumes and anyone who gets this, any pastor who gets this, any man who's thinking biblically and is serious about the ministry will never, ever regret getting those three volumes.

01:32:37

It's masterful. Just masterful. In fact, I should back up a little bit.

01:32:43

Trinity Ministerial Academy, Albert N. Martin was one of my mentors. He's probably had more of an influence on me than any other living man.

01:32:54

I don't think I'm a clone of him, but he's had more influence on me probably than any other living

01:33:01

Christian man. The three volumes of his Pastoral Theology are just masterful.

01:33:07

Approaching pastoral ministry from a variety of perspectives, and when you read, he'll open up Scripture.

01:33:17

He'll expound Scripture, and you feel like the principles he's bringing just rest on the Word of God. That would be one thing.

01:33:27

I'm wondering what else? Are you talking about language tools or practical works?

01:33:33

The listener did not specify. I'm assuming he's just talking about a bare minimum of things that every pastor should have.

01:33:44

Bare minimum, you've got to have language tools, lexicons, concordances.

01:33:51

You should have books on historical theology. It's good to have sets of Puritans, sets of writers.

01:33:59

It's good to have commentaries, good Old Testament commentaries.

01:34:05

Good commentaries are important so that you can discover the meaning of the text. You can't apply the text properly until you understand what it really means, and you should take the pains to find out what the text means, and then you can apply it.

01:34:21

Those would be some general categories. I'm assuming that you would also include in that bare minimum essential collection of books for pastors is the

01:34:34

Reformed Pastor by Richard Baxter. I'm assuming that. Yes, that would be one. The Christian Ministry, Charles Bridges, that would be another one.

01:34:49

Well, we could go back to that. By the way, folks, go to cvbbs .com

01:34:55

if you're interested in ordering the three volume set by Albert N.

01:35:01

Martin, Pastoral Theology, The Man of God, and mention that this three volume set was published by Trinity Pulpit Press.

01:35:13

That's cvbbs .com. I mention them because they are sponsors of this program, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

01:35:22

Let's see here. We have another anonymous listener who says, what is the very first thing that the elders should do to spring into action when a problem of division rises up so dangerously that the church may be on the verge of a split?

01:35:48

The first thing I think of is good communication. Everybody's got to chill.

01:35:55

He who makes haste with his feet errs. Got to go slow. Make sure everybody is understanding each other.

01:36:03

Try to promote good communication. It starts with that. And many times misunderstandings can be cleared up in that way.

01:36:13

It's also helpful to be able to distinguish is this a moral matter?

01:36:20

Is this division or this difference a moral matter? Or is it simply a different perspective among godly

01:36:27

Christian people? And sometimes Christians have to agree to disagree. But so often the difference is put in the category well, you're not following the

01:36:38

Bible. And it gets very confrontational. That might be the case, but then again, maybe not.

01:36:47

Excellent question. Excellent answer. CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York asks a similar question.

01:36:57

He says, or asks, how tolerant and patient should elders of a church be when members of the congregation adopt novel ideas that are not heretical, so they would be under church discipline for believing them, but they are just different than the unanimous consent of the congregation and eldership, and the individual keeps bringing these issues of difference up.

01:37:28

What should be the response of the elders? How gracious and patient should they be?

01:37:34

Or if the person seems to be constantly trying to proselytize these views to the other congregants, should they be forced to remain silent on the issues to remain in good standing in the church?

01:37:49

It would depend on what the issue is, but it sounds to me like from the description that this individual with these novel ideas, these individuals, as the case may be, it would be preferable for this person not to proselytize.

01:38:08

It sounds like they're upsetting the unity of the peace and unity of the church, and so the elders should strongly appeal to this person in light of that, that you're just creating trouble and friction and division, perhaps even undermining the teaching of the leadership.

01:38:26

And so that would be a matter of great concern, but then also I think what are the issues exactly?

01:38:33

Is it a matter of a different application of biblical truth? Sometimes what happens is because of a culture in a church, this is the way we've done it, we haven't done it another way, and if you're just talking about doing something in a different way, but it's still biblical, it's still valid, well, you know, then there's room for everybody to learn and grow in that situation.

01:38:57

Yeah, it actually reminds me of when I was a new Christian and I was being interviewed by my own elders for baptism, and I told them because at the time

01:39:13

I was not yet at the point where I believed in the doctrines of sovereign grace,

01:39:21

I told them, I love you guys, I trust you with my life, I want you to be my pastors,

01:39:28

I love the people in this congregation, but I don't know if I'm ever going to believe in this Calvinism stuff. And they told me,

01:39:35

Chris, we are not going to require that you believe in the five points of Calvinism to baptize you, or even to admit you into membership, but you must respect the fact that this is the position of the church, and you're not to undermine it, you're not to bad mouth the pastors after they preach, you're not to try to convince your fellow congregation members that your pastors are in error on these things.

01:40:04

If you are to submit to the fact that this is the position of the church, we will excitedly welcome you into membership.

01:40:12

And sure enough, within months, maybe even less than two months, after reading

01:40:19

George Whitefield's letter to John Wesley on election, the Lord totally transformed my thinking on that area, starting with the fact that I read the booklet and said, oh no, these things are true, but I still hate them.

01:40:37

And then, very quickly after that, falling in love with those truths. So the elders didn't have that to worry about anymore.

01:40:46

But that's a great example. God doesn't call individuals in the church to change the church.

01:40:52

Right. And we need to be peacemakers, and yeah.

01:40:58

And I think that that goes for Reformed people who, because there's no

01:41:03

Reformed church near them, they may be hundreds of miles away, if they join an

01:41:09

Arminian church, I'm not saying they should ever compromise their beliefs, but they should not be pushing an agenda in a church and causing conflict.

01:41:18

Yeah. And just one other thing on that, too, from a different perspective is having good communication.

01:41:26

Sometimes the people of God, there's a change in their thinking, and they don't want to come to the elders because the elders don't listen to them.

01:41:34

And this can happen in a marriage. Husbands and wives don't listen to each other. And parents and children, and the parents bite the heads off the kids, or the elders don't listen to the people, and so they don't come.

01:41:45

And there's not a spirit of transparency and openness between the leadership and the people.

01:41:51

That's just not helpful, if that's the case. And so, people should be able to be open about their views, even though it's not necessarily what the pastors want to hear, but at least there's open communication, and then they can deal with it from there.

01:42:04

Amen. We've got to go. Our final break, it will be a lot more brief than the other breaks. If you have a question, send it in immediately, because we are rapidly running out of time.

01:42:11

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. We'll be right back, so don't go away.

01:42:32

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

01:42:42

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Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland.

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Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

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Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

01:50:12

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr.

01:50:17

Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the

01:50:23

Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great

01:50:32

Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone,

01:50:44

Christ alone, and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the Triune God that continues in eternity.

01:50:50

For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia visit HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com

01:50:56

that's HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com or call 678 -954 -7831 that's 678 -954 -7831 that's

01:51:07

If you visit, have them Joe O 'Reilly, an Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener, and a tie in County Kildare, Ireland sent you.

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If you love Iron Sharpens Iron radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.

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One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Hansen is doing is

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Daniel P. Patafuoco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

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Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission?

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To foster belief in the credibility of scripture as the written word of God.

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They go to various churches, schools and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts along with a fascinating presentation by Mr.

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Patafuoco demonstrating the reliability of scripture. To advance the cause of the gospel they created a beautiful perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition 1611

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This book is complete with gorgeous full size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the

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Tower of Babel and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims to the throne of the universe.

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Originals of this work are in museums and nobody has ever made it accessible to the public in a large book form before.

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You can have your own copy of this 44 page genealogy book for a donation of $35 or more.

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Visit historicalbiblesociety .org That's historicalbiblesociety .org

01:53:15

Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. I'm Pastor Chuck White of the

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First Trinity Lutheran Church in Tonawanda, New York and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

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I'm Pastor Anthony Mathenia of Christ Church in Radford, Virginia and the NASB is my

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Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jesse Miller of Damascus Road Christian Church in Gardnerville, Nevada and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmerville, Long Island, New York and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rodney Brown of Metro Bible Church in South Lake, Texas and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jim Harrison of Red Mills Baptist Church in Mayapac Falls, New York and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew Bibles tattered and falling apart?

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Consider restocking your pews with the NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Go to nasbible .com that's nasbible .com to place your order.

01:55:22

Getting a driver's license, running a cash register, flipping burgers, passing 6th grade.

01:55:29

Do you know what they all have in common? They all require training, assessments and certifications.

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But do you know what requires no training at all? Becoming a parent. My name is

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A .M. Brewster I'm the president of Truth, Love, Parent and host of its award winning podcast. I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000's and what

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I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.

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That's why Truth, Love, Parent exists. We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents

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God called and created them to be. We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.

01:56:14

Please visit us at truthloveparent .com Pastor Dom, we have Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York who wants to know, over those 30 years that you were a pastor, did you change any of your positions on biblical and doctrinal and theological issues and how did you break that kind of news to your elders and congregation?

01:56:40

The answer is no. So there was nothing to break.

01:56:47

Did my perspectives on various things change? Yes. Hopefully for the better, but as far as things that I would have to let the elders know or the people know that I've changed my doctrinal position, no, that never happened.

01:57:02

Well, I'd like you to take the last two and a half minutes or so of the program to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

01:57:11

Okay, I've got some bullets. Here they are. For pastors. The value of regular physical exercise cannot be overstated.

01:57:21

1 Timothy 4 .8. Another one. The value of prayer cannot be overstated.

01:57:27

Owen said something to the effect, it's not an exact quote, but he said what a man is before God in secret is what he is and no more.

01:57:36

And that's humbling. Another one. The value of repentance and keeping short accounts with God cannot be overstated.

01:57:44

Proverbs 10 verse 9. If as pastors we don't have integrity we have nothing before God.

01:57:52

Again, Owen, he said you must be killing sin or it will be killing you. Having a sense of integrity is going to preserve us through many a trial, many a difficulty, and we're going to crumble if we don't have that sense of integrity.

01:58:08

Another one. Reflect often on the distinct privilege that is yours to get your living by the gospel. 1

01:58:14

Corinthians 9 and verse 14. What a blessing. There's nothing that we should rather do than this than to spend our lives and be spent for God's people and be spent in serving

01:58:25

God's people and serving God and glorifying Him in the ministry. We have nothing better to do than this.

01:58:33

Another one. Don't judge by appearance. John 7 24. Don't fall into the we had no fruit because we don't see it syndrome.

01:58:43

A lot of times there's fruit, we just don't see it and the measure of our fruit is not what we're able to perceive.

01:58:51

And then the last thing. What a reward is in store for faithful gospel ministers. 1

01:58:56

Peter 5 and verse 4. You will hear the well done good and faithful servant.

01:59:04

The ministry has a way of helping you prepare for death and long for the world to come and to keep your eye on the prize.

01:59:13

Amen. Well thank you so much brother for being such a superb guest. I look forward to you returning to the show in your retirement.

01:59:19

And don't forget the website for Englewood Baptist Church in Englewood, New Jersey is ebcnj .com

01:59:28

ebcnj .com I want to thank you again Pastor Dom for being such a great guest.

01:59:33

I want to thank everybody. I appreciate it. I want to thank all of the listeners who listened to the program today especially those who took the time to write.

01:59:42

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.