WWUTT 1460 Q&A Jonathan Cahn vs Hal Lindsey, Knowing God's Sovereignty, Verses Out of Context

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This is When We Understand the Text, a daily Bible study in the Word of Christ, that we may have the mind of Christ.

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Tell all your friends about our ministry at www .utt .com. Here once again is

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Pastor Gabe. Thank you, Becky. You're welcome. You don't have to keep, like, turning that back and forth.

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It'll keep us both. Becky's doing it like she's interviewing me, like she's putting the microphone in my face and then in hers.

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So things are a little different. We didn't talk this through before we started doing this. So we're on our way back home from the

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Wokeness of the Gospel Conference after the first night of the conference. We didn't get the chance to hear anybody.

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No. But that's okay. We can find it online and listen to them. We'll get to watch all the videos later.

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Yeah. We got bombarded when we got there. I mean, immediately we're meeting folks and saying, hey, and shaking hands.

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Yes. Probably, I don't know, what would you say, two out of five, maybe three out of five people that we encountered had never heard of what before?

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I'd say three out of five. Really? It was quite a few. Yeah. There were others we encountered that said they didn't even know about the conference except that we talked about it on the program.

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Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. So it's always great to get out to the conferences and be able to do this because then we meet people.

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You can actually put faces with the voices. Yes. And Twitter avatars and stuff like that, too.

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That's fun. A couple of people came up to us and said, hey, I follow you on Twitter. Here's my avatar.

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It was like, oh, yeah, okay, yeah. I remember seeing you on there. Good find. I got it now. So we're driving in the car.

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We got this little recorder, and we're trying to do this. The podcast, of course, is late.

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We didn't have it up on Friday morning. We're doing a special edition. This is a special edition, right, heading home from day one of Wokeness in the

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Gospel. That's right. It'll get posted real late on Friday. You'll have it Saturday to be able to listen to.

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Yes. So we have fielded a few questions while we were there, just kind of having some chats with folks in line.

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I think Becky's jotted a few down on her phone. I have. Yeah. Okay, so things are a little different.

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I am going to be attempting to read the questions. Since I'm driving. Yes. Yeah. So. Probably not a good idea.

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Yeah, probably not. For me to be reading questions and driving at the same time. Although I do have a beef with how

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Texas does their road construction. Oh. Okay? They're doing this thing where they're closing off lanes.

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Like for example, they'll close off the left lane, but the arrow that tells you to get over into the right lane is not until after they've already closed the lane.

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It might be because they don't have a shoulder to put it on. It could be that, right. It's like right in the middle of Dallas.

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Yeah. There's no shoulders there. It's like, hello. All of a sudden there's big ol' barrels in your way.

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So we didn't start recording this until after we were out of Dallas traffic. Yes. Yeah. We're a straight shot home, so.

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That's right. On I -20. So here we go. Yes. Go ahead, Becky. Alright, so question number one, that I wrote down anyway.

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Is Jonathan Kahn like what Hal Lindsey was? Yeah, so Hal Lindsey was the guy that wrote

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The Late Great Planet Earth over four decades ago. I can't even remember how old that is now. He had made some predictions about when

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Jesus was going to return. There were all kinds of things in there. He's, of course, the guy that's best known for interpreting the book of Revelation through a modern lens, where when you read about locusts that had tails like scorpions and hair like a woman's hair, he looks at an

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Apache helicopter and he's like, oh, yeah, you know, that's probably what

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John saw. And he didn't think of, like, how do I explain an Apache helicopter?

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Well, I'm just going to call it a locust with a scorpion's tail and hair like women's hair, which is the propeller on the top, of course.

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Anyway, so he's looking at all of this through a very Zionistic, very modern lens, taking everything that's happening in the world at the present and imposing that onto the text, which is eisegesis.

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You're taking your present context and imposing it onto Scripture. So how is that different than what

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Jonathan Kahn does? In case you're not familiar, Jonathan Kahn wrote The Paradigm and The Harbinger, and these books have ended up on the

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New York Times bestseller list. And so what he'll do is he'll go into the Old Testament and he'll read a story about, like, you know,

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Jehu and Ahab and Jezebel. And of course, it was

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Jehu who was the commander of the armies when he had instructed the guys that were up there in the tower with Jezebel, hey, throw her out of the window.

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And they obeyed Jehu and did it because they figured, hey, this guy's taking over. He's going to take over Israel.

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He's going to be in command of everything. So we're going to do what he says to do so he doesn't kill us, too. So, you know, you see all of that kind of play out with Jehu.

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And then what Jonathan Kahn does is he takes that story and he infuses it onto a modern context.

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And so whereas how Lindsay is taking prophecy that we think of being fulfilled in the future in the book of Revelation, and he brings it into the present,

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Jonathan Kahn is taking what has happened in the past and bringing it into the present. And he's saying that this stuff that happened in the

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Old Testament is actually foretelling what we're seeing happening right now. So Jehu is like a picture of Donald Trump.

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Jezebel is Hillary Clinton. Ahab is, I guess, Bill Clinton.

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I don't know who he said Ahab was. Biden? He's not married to Hillary.

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I don't know. I've never read the Harbinger, so I'm not sure how he's equating those. But people will get really sucked into this because you'll make these comparisons and they'll say, well, that's really cool.

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I never thought of that. I never saw that in the Old Testament before. So they'll think of Jonathan Kahn as being this prophet.

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Well, first of all, the connections that he's making are really quite a stretch.

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Donald Trump didn't kill anybody like Jehu did. Hillary Clinton was not thrown out a window.

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And we're still not sure who Jonathan Kahn was making Ahab out to be. Bill Clinton, I guess.

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But he'll even take these Old Testament stories and say, see, look at how this pertained to what happened with Osama bin

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Laden. And look at what happened when the Twin Towers fell.

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We actually saw this happen in the Old Testament, too, with this story and all this kind of thing. At best, all

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Jonathan Kahn is proving is that there's nothing new under the sun. And what has happened is what will be, just like what

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Ecclesiastes chapter 1 says. So that's all Jonathan Kahn is proving.

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At best. At worst, he's a false prophet. Which is really how

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I've interpreted what Jonathan Kahn teaches, according to what I've said in what videos.

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He's a false prophet. People will get enamored by the stuff that he says, but really, what's the point?

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Like all he's taking is things that have happened in a modern context has showed similarities to stuff that has happened in the

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Old Testament. Say, see, this predicted this. Well, so what if it did? It's not like it changes everything.

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It doesn't change the Gospel. Right. It doesn't change the future. It doesn't change our need for the

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Gospel. It doesn't change the evil that exists in our present and is exhibiting the fallenness of the world in which we live.

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There's still a desperate need to cling to Christ and have a hope for His coming.

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Which none of the stuff that Jonathan Kahn does is really doing that. It's not pointing to Christ. It's not pointing us to Christ.

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We already know what Jesus has said in His Word that He is going to do. And we hold fast to Him.

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Whether we see in the present a fulfillment of Revelation like, you know, you're cross -referencing the book of Revelation with the evening news.

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So I know, therefore, that this is going to be happening soon because I see that's what's happening in the book of Revelation.

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That's what I see going on in CNN. You know, that's not the way that we interpret our

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Bibles. We see that Christ has said He has won. The victory is in His hand.

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He is going to return to judge the living and the dead. So continue to hold fast to Christ. No matter what happens today, whether you die today or you live another 20 or 30 years to see what

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God is going to do in the United States in the future. Who knows what that will be? There's still an important need to cling to Christ and tell other people about Jesus.

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Tell them that they are sinners who are worthy of the judgment of God and it is only by faith in Christ that we can be saved.

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Hebrews 1 .1 says, Long ago, at various times and in various places and in various ways

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God spoke to our fathers by the prophets but in these last days, the days in which we are in He has spoken to us by His Son.

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And that is whom we are to present to other people. Not drawing these strange lines between the present and the

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Old Testament or from the present to the evening news cross -referenced with the book of Revelation we need to show them

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Christ. Revelation shows us that the victory belongs to the Lord and that He is going to strike down the nations with a rod of iron as it says in Revelation 19.

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So we need to be on the side of the one who has the victory who is

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King and reigns over all and He is the one whom we are to worship. It is by faith in Christ that we are saved.

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That's just not a message that you get from Jonathan Cahn. Yeah, it doesn't seem like it.

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Alright, so question number two. Would you say that someone who doesn't believe in God's predestination might have control issues with not letting go and having childlike faith in God?

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Well, there's definitely a tendency for us in the infancy of our faith to want to cling to our own autonomy.

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And we've been talking about that as we're going through 1 Corinthians chapters 1 -3 right now.

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You know, just recently talking in 1 Corinthians 3 -1 where Paul says to the Corinthians but I could not address you as spiritual people but as people of the flesh who are infants in Christ.

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He's not saying to them that they aren't saved but they're just not ready to handle some of the more difficult things that he has to teach them when they're still behaving in these human ways in merely human ways.

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There's all kinds of factions and divisions that exist among the Corinthians Jealousy and strife are two of the things that he mentions because they're still going after their own interests and not looking after the interests of others.

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And so Paul has to come back and teach them basic things. You need to learn how to love each other. Which when we get to chapter 13 it rebukes them for not knowing what love is.

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But if they're filled with Christ then they need to have the love of Christ for one another. These are basic doctrines basic level things that we're teaching one another at the very beginning of our faith.

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And he's got to go back and get them on that page before he's moving on to some deeper more complicated doctrines.

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Now as I pointed out in 1 Corinthians chapter 1 this does not mean that we don't talk about matters of predestination like we need to save that until a later time because Paul opens the letter talking about that.

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He is an apostle by the will of God and they have become Christians by the will of God.

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So we're talking about a faith that we have that has been by God's working in our lives.

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As it says in 2 Timothy 1 .9 He has called us to this holy calling by His own purpose and grace not by our works which

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He gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began. We see that right at the beginning of 2

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Timothy chapter 1 talking about this salvation that we have received not by our works but by the will of God that He would call us even to a holy calling so repenting of our sin and desiring to walk in holiness we're not seeing that in the

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Corinthians here at the start of this letter we're seeing that they're still walking in very fleshly ways clinging to their own autonomy

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Paul talks to them about the sovereignty of God who has called us to this faith by His own will by His own purpose so that they would put a focus on Christ and take the focus off of themselves so we see that at the beginning of his letter so that's to say that even in our infancy there's still an importance upon understanding the sovereignty of God He reigns,

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He rules nothing happens outside His will that's a very basic doctrine you're almost talking about the difference between a

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Christian and an Atheist there a Christian believes that God is in control an Atheist of course doesn't believe in God doesn't believe that He is in control

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Lamentations chapter 3 says nothing happens good or bad outside the will of God so these are very basic truths that we are to understand just looking at the sovereignty of God of course in our immaturity we want to cling to our own autonomy there's still things that we want to do that's got to be worked out that takes some time now as we are going to talk about the sovereignty of God there may be things pertaining to God's sovereignty pertaining to things like predestination, election foreknowledge you might a person that you're witnessing to may not be ready to handle those things yet so for example someone's child dies of cancer that's not really the best time and place to say to a person will this happen by the will of God there may be a person who is of a certain maturity that may handle and understand something like that and it's good news to their ears but there's somebody else in their infancy in their immaturity in their faith who would not be ready to handle something like that so that's kind of an instance where we do need to understand the sovereignty of God in the midst of any and all circumstances but you need to be careful with how you communicate those things and in what circumstances to which people based on how mature they are in their faith

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Right and I would also venture out to say that it might be the lesson that God is teaching them as well during that horrific process of losing a child or something and so it takes baby steps in order to get there, you don't just jump from drinking milk to eating meat, you've got to take the steps to get there so don't just assume that if you dump them under water they're going to be fine

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Let me hold you down here until you got it and then you can come back up again and enjoy the rest of us and a person's going to drown if you do it that way

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Right, precisely In 2 Corinthians chapter 1, I come back to this a lot but the difficult things that happen to us in our lives, we go through pain and trials and difficult circumstances because they teach us to rely not on ourselves but on God who raises the dead, so we learn more about the sovereignty of God as we endure even difficult things here in this world

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So don't think that well this person's immature so therefore I can't talk about things like election and predestination, it's all over the

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New Testament We shouldn't withhold those things from Christians whom we are desiring to sanctify in the knowledge of God's word

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So continue to talk about those things Just don't shove them in somebody's face

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Yeah, careful, tenderly depending on the circumstance of the situation

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Gently Next question, was

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Gabe wearing a leather vest? Yeah, so we took a picture of each other at our booth, well we did one of our selfies there at the booth and I posted it on Twitter, so now with the vest that I was wearing there at the booth

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It had a little bit of some decor on it, everybody commented Yeah, you've definitely adapted to Texas real well already

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So they were asking, is that a leather vest I was wearing? No, it's actually kind of suede Yeah A very expensive vest

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I wasn't really sure when I bought it what I was going to wear it with, but I decided to try it out at the

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Wokeness of the Gospel conference. Thanks for noticing Alright, so then our last one is, can you give some examples of a few

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Bible verses that have been taken out of context often? Yeah, so we got this at the table a lot, people coming up just asking us what the ministry was about, and we said you know, we'll take verses that are often taken out of context, we'll put them back in context.

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So one of those that's very common is where two or more are gathered, there

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I am in the midst of them And so you'll hear people use that verse as like, see

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Jesus is here in our prayer gathering, because there's two or more of us in our prayer gathering

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They'll even sell prayer night at the church with that where two or more are gathered, so we've got to have two of us, because there

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Jesus will be in the midst of us. Well in the context when you go to Matthew chapter 18 Jesus is very clearly talking about church discipline.

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He's not talking about your prayer gathering Right. And he's pulling from the law in Deuteronomy where it would say every charge must be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.

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And so when it comes to correcting those who are in sin in the church every charge needs to be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses

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And so where there are two or three in the church that have by their witness been able to affirm this person is not walking in the faith, and they are resistant to correction, and they won't repent when told, when shown their error, shown what

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God's Word says, and told to turn from their sin and back to Christ, they won't do it, so therefore in the process of church discipline we're having to remove them from the body, not necessarily declaring them condemned

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Right. But we're just recognizing they're not of us in this in where they are at the present.

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And so as Paul instructed the church to do in 1 Corinthians 5 turn them over to Satan Yes.

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In hopes that they would come back, realize they're wrong and come back. To purify the church that this sin would not be in the church, but we're also hoping that the person being disciplined is going to repent of their sin, realizing that it was so serious they had to be removed from the body.

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Yes. And if they repent and come back, the grace of God is shown over the whole thing It's a beautiful thing.

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Yeah. To witness God's grace being done in something like that, which is not, that's not really the common result in that situation but we've been blessed to see it work and take effect, yeah.

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So that's what the context there is of where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them.

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Jesus is saying, I am with you when you affirm that this person is not walking in faith and has to be removed from the church body so we can have confidence in those situations in Christ, not in ourselves, but in Christ, who has judged according to his word.

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So, really, the church is coming to an agreement of something that Christ has already determined. That's what's happening there.

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Yes. Two or three affirming, this is what Christ has said, this is what we have witnessed we're on the side of Christ.

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Another verse, often taken out of context, Philippians 4 .13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me

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I can run this marathon. That's right. I can run this marathon. I can do all things is

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Stephen Curry's slogan, the basketball player for the Golden State Warriors?

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Golden State Warriors. Right? I don't know. I don't know basketball. I have not been watching basketball for so long now.

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So, anyway, Stephen Curry has been putting that on his shoes that I can do all things.

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And I'll read newspaper articles and stuff like that, things on ESPN .com or wherever, where they'll share another story about somebody who's like, oh,

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I just love Stephen Curry. I love his brand. I can do all things. And then the article might make reference to where that comes from.

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Well, it comes from Stephen Curry taking a Bible verse and putting it on his clothing.

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But what does that say? It doesn't say anything. On his clothing, it doesn't even give tribute to Christ. It doesn't even say

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I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength. So not only are we taking that verse out of context to say we can win

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NBA championships through Christ who gives me strength, we're not even including the name of Christ anymore in the way that Stephen Curry in particular has branded this particular thing.

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What Paul was talking about there is that whether he goes through whether times are good or he goes through really difficult hardships, he does not lose faith.

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He does not lose hope. He continues to endure, pressing on to the goal that is in Christ Jesus because of Christ who gives him strength.

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Christ is the one who upholds us. Christ is the one who helps us to endure to the end.

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Jude talks about this at the end of his letter where he says that to him who is able to keep you from stumbling until the day of glory.

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So that's another way of saying I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. It is Christ who gives us the strength to the end.

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So that's another common verse that we hear often taken out of context. So I just mentioned 2

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Timothy chapter 1. It's later on in that chapter where Paul says that God has given us not a spirit of fear.

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And that's another one that gets taken out of context. And they'll even apply that to even sports.

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I don't have a spirit of fear. I can do this. I can push through to the end. And then you bring it back to I.

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I can do this. Then the focus becomes on the self and not on Christ. Precisely.

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We've not been given a spirit of fear but a spirit of love and peace and of self control because our reliance is upon Christ who even gives us our holy calling, as Paul said, that we may walk in holiness.

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A holiness that comes not from ourselves but on Christ. Right. Now I know you keep looking at the recorder because I think we have a time limit, don't we?

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We do. But I think we're okay still. Okay. Anyway, well that was it. I was done.

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There's my 3 examples. Those 3 verses there. Those were excellent. Thank you.

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You're welcome. Thanks, babe. Anytime. Alright, shall we pray? Let's pray. Heavenly Father, we thank you for the wokeness in the

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Gospel Conference, that the speakers have been assembled and come together to alert and warn the church about this new moralism, this new racism even that exists that has been adopted in evangelicalism, that certain people are morally inferior because of their skin color, but we know through what

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Scripture says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and we are justified by His grace as a gift that God has given to us in Christ Jesus.

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We receive by faith. The Gospel is being proclaimed at this conference and I pray you continue to be with these speakers as we enter into yet another day.

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Be with the people who have attended the conference, that we may learn and be convicted in heart.

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We may be strengthened and emboldened to be able to encounter some of these things that are going on in our culture right now and not be intimidated or bullied, but to stand fast on what

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Christ has said in His Word. It is only by faith in Christ that we are reconciled to God and to one another.

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It is only by faith in Christ that we are unified with each other, that we can have any hope of brotherly love is because of the love that has been shown to us in Christ Jesus.

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May we learn mercy that we may show to one another as Pastor Tom had talked about in his talk and we pray that as we head into the weekend, we get closer to Sunday, that everybody would be looking forward to church when we would be gathered together with the saints singing praises unto our

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God who has called us to this holy calling by His goodness and grace. It is in the name of Jesus that we pray.