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Cling to the cross then put both arms around it. Hold to the crucified and never let him go. Come afresh to the cross at this moment and rest there now and forever. Then with the power of God resting upon you go forth and preach the cross.
Welcome to the truth of love podcast. I'm Robin. That's Dan. We are going to be going back to Harrison Perkins reform covenant theology Looking at chapter 9 today. Stick with us.
About. That was the best one yet, right? Little gold nuggets flying at us and everything. That was the best one yet.
You can't you can't get me laughing. I will get. Often and I can't get stopped. Thank you for watching the truth and love podcast or listening to us. Thank you for joining us. Let us know that you're here.
Say hello. The comment live is open. I have just switched over to there so I can see who makes a comment critique question or even a prayer request. Dan how are you doing?
I'm tired man. Good tired though. I'm tired like I've been doing something. I started back school today. We had stacked up firewood. It's like 10 degrees outside windy. Terrible. But yeah started back up school today and worked all day and felt like I got some stuff accomplished and.
How are you doing.
Well, I will be better once this lingering Congestion and cough will go away. Speaking of which but other than that I'm good. I'm good. I Did give a testimony in our chat group today. We it was such a praise such a praise we prayed for a very little girl.
That's there's young couple in a couple in our congregation this little girl has has had a fever for quite a few days and It's been going on and it was extremely hot. Where's the pictures. I'm not questioning that.
Becky not questioning that at all. Pictures will be nice. Um but yeah, so we prayed for her during the service and And And God broke her fever and we just praise God that he he answered that prayer broke her fever and she's now Eating more regularly.
From the reports that I'm hearing it was the it was a great praise To the Lord for answering prayer and it was such an encouragement To hear that to pray and then have an answer prayer. It was just fantastic.
So.
Yeah, yeah doing good and praise the Lord and I'm I'm thankful to be back with you and jumping back into this reformed covenant theology. Dan and I haven't really talked about if we want to completely finish the book.
I know that. Eventually, we've talked about looking at spiritual formation in the Christian life or Spiritual formations in the Christian life, which is going to be a good a good series for us to do.
Yeah, absolutely, I think so, yeah.
So let's let's jump into this chapter. Chapter 9 is the unity of the covenant of grace.
Can I stop you Rob. Because I know we talked a little bit and I was. I don't know how to bring it up.
And now I.
Went to looking at something and now I know how to bring it up. So I kind of like to address.
Just.
Just Christians in general the way that we Treat each other way we act now our network does a pretty good job of Talking together about stuff and getting on with life. You know, we have disagreements amongst amongst ourselves we talk about things.
No, we don't always agree on everything, but we we try to model What it means to speak the truth in love. So We try we don't we don't always know. But when we don't we we apologize to each other we fix things and we move on.
You know, that's what we're supposed to do as believers but then I go and Start studying for school. I'm looking at biblical counseling. So we're looking at you know, what should I do in order to to aid someone? in their spiritual journey.
I'm also taking a class on evangelism. So what do I do in order to? See one brought into the fold of Christ and of the gospel being pressed into the life of a person who does not believe. So what happens there?
And then I look at the way that Christians treat each other online the way that they decide to fight with each other every other post is trying to badmouth somebody for something they did or trying to to set ourselves up as People who just go out of our way to discern everything and anything that could possibly be an issue for someone.
Seemingly just to bring up dirt on folks and it's just ridiculous that the book of First Corinthians right before the passage on the Lord's Supper says this it says but in giving this instruction I do not praise you for you come together.
Not for the better before the worse. For in the first place when you come together as a church I hear that divisions exist among you and in part I believe it for there must also be factions among you.
So that those who are approved may become evident among you and what Paul's talking about. There is those people in in Corinth who said you know, I'm of Paul. I'm of Apollos. I'm only of Jesus. No, that was to try to act super spiritual.
Yeah.
And.
What he's saying there is no you come together and there's divisions among you and you're acting a fool and it's good that y 'all are. Divided up a little bit because the ones who are acting a fool now are the ones who are causing the problem.
But it's almost like we see in the Christian world, especially amongst reformed folks today that they almost take that as a challenge. No, well, there must be divisions among us so we can know who's right.
So, let me see if I can divide here and there and pick apart this one and that one so I can show people how right and how good and how smart I am and I'll be honest with you. I don't know how many of us are actually all that qualified to do that in the public sphere.
I mean when you think about it who's been ordained by God in order to speak out in public. No, at least to to discern things and call people out. I mean really that's been given to the job of pastors and elders to go out and to identify problems and to warn their sheep.
Now each one of us is called to be discerning and. To say something to our families to say hey, this isn't right, you know ask our pastors. It's know what's going on here. So that way we can inform our families on what to do.
But really the ministry of calling folks out in public. Most of us aren't even qualified to do that because that's really been given to a specific purpose of the church.
And I.
Don't know if it's for you. It's for you, but but we need we need to do better.
Well, you know what's interesting about that. Those that are the qualified to be doing that those are probably the ones that are sitting back and Holding their tongue.
It can be a lot of times I think they probably just throw their face in their palm and said well, how do I untangle this mess of ridiculousness? Yeah, there's so many misconceptions and straw men and what are y 'all even talking about me to get in there and fix it?
Well, we're supposed to be quicker to listen than to speak. Sure. And so your qualified elders are. Listening. They're waiting. They're being patient. It's like Keith Bosky made the comment, you know when we have a controversy come out.
And and I think he was being serious about it that he he said there was a time frame. There was a window there. He's like I just let it let it be. Well, whatever that time period is instead of jumping on the bandwagon.
Yeah, I mean you think about any any of the events that have happened where you don't know what happened. You know a tragedy or something like that and it'll come out that you know, this is what happened.
You know.
Not 9-eleven for instance. You heard all sorts of stuff. Oh, there's there's extra planes in the air. There's bombs all over the place. The Capitol building got destroyed, you know. And then as you as you wait longer and longer and longer you see what actually happened.
The truth actually comes out and you find out what's what's going on.
But.
But what you see a lot of times like you said is people will just hear the first thing. Make a snap decision and then start getting vocal about it and it's it's kind of.
It's kind of ridiculous. It just makes you wonder that a lot of these Men that have. They've been called to a church they're preaching that they call themselves pastors and. Maybe you know that's between them and the Lord.
That's the Lord's calling but you know, we can look in and see. Hey. Is there a question of qualification here? Based on what you're saying how you're saying it your approach to this. Should we question the qualification?
Maybe but at the same time if you're gonna question the qualification of an elder. It needs to only be heard on the it needs to be heard by elders. Needs to be heard on the the established witness of two or three.
Otherwise, you're not even supposed to take it into account. So I think I think what people have done is they've heard two or three people who they've heard her pastors. Oh, well somebody's spoken on it.
So now here let me give my two cents. It really doesn't matter what you think. Your opinion your opinions like like, uh, oh, what that one dude say. Your your opinions move. It's like what do you mean move?
So yeah, it's like a cow. It's opinion doesn't matter. Somehow it worked. I don't know. Yeah. But I think I might go ahead all tone down. It's almost like like discernment ministry. Which is I think a good thing kind of got ramped up to where.
We're just eating ourselves, yeah instead of encouraging one another. Yeah, it says saying well, hey, they got it right here me. Maybe there's a little bit wrong there, but I'm gonna keep this no going on my own and think through things, you know with my pastor because What what you see is is a lot of folks who just running out.
Outside of their their eldership. Not talking over things with them and it's it's getting out of hand.
Sure is. And I like I like how your two classes of counseling and evangelism are running parallel. And I'm not saying that I'm right. It's just an observation that I made and I made this comment recently that.
To.
Some I can't remember my exact words, but Somewhat said something like this. When it comes to evangelism your your your greatest focus should be the Saints within your church. Not just that you're teaching them the crew the correct gospel and the correct response to the gospel.
But that you're focused on their discipleship of the sanctification. You go out here and preach the gospel to somebody and say Now it's time. What do I do you get baptized join a church? All right, let's get them baptized.
Have them join our church. What are you having them join. A Bunch of folks who have not been discipled who are not growing in their faith who are backbiting and gossiping. You know, so to me evangelism One of your main focuses has to be your own people.
Mm-hmm because of what you're bringing them into.
Yeah, otherwise you just don't people through a turnstile to throw numbers on a board. Turn them into the office and have somebody say oh look what they're doing down there. That's right airs. What's the Lord doing among us?
Nickels and noses nickels and noses. It's been that way for too long. You've not heard that saying.
Was it mean money and people. That's right. Well, that's right. I ties and.
Tendons. Yep. That's that's what we are revolve around. Yeah, that's that's how we make our plans. That's how we do things. Revolve it around nickels and noses.
Absolutely, well without aside I Think this would be a great time to look at the Covenant of Grace.
I.
Think yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm glad you shared that because that was fresh on your mind. It's something that God was teaching you today you as you're going through your classes. So that was that was good stuff.
And and this is good stuff. To the unity of the Covenant of Grace in the benefits of Christ. I was looking at this and I was reflecting on how. To a degree the simplicity of it to another degree the complexity of it.
But the in it in both ends the beauty of. It's such a it's such a wonderful chapter. Yeah.
Yeah, it's it's pretty pretty cool. So what this is all about this this chapter chapter 9 is about how the Covenant of Grace Throughout its its Whole outworking. It has a unity. Due to the benefits we receive from Christ.
This gets into a bunch of different things. It gets into headship. Gets into union with Christ. How we actually receive the benefits from him. A unity amongst ourselves. Citizenship in the kingdom of heaven.
A whole a whole bunch of different stuff. But I mean really what what this chapter gets at is is that the Covenant of Grace is is just that Covenant of Redemption.
Of the the.
Covenant of Redemption being the plan of God to save a people for himself. How that's worked out in time so obviously there's a little bit of difference between. Well, I don't know if there's or not there might be.
There's a there's a difference between Baptists and Presbyterians on how they view the Covenant of Grace and how it's been administered. However, That doesn't necessarily affect what we're talking about in this chapter.
Let me explain it. Your your regular old Presbyterian Reform Covenant theology Says that there is one covenant of grace That's administered variously throughout time. So you've got your your covenant in Abraham.
Moses.
The Davidic Covenant the New Covenant all of them together one covenant of grace. Various administrations of that same covenant. So all the benefits of Christ would have been the same throughout the whole covenant of grace.
Now when you get to 1689 Federalist Baptist Covenant theology, which I don't know which brand of Baptist Covenant theology you got going on. But when you get to the 1689 Federalist, they say that the Covenant of Grace is only In the New Covenant, so the New Covenant and the Covenant of Grace are the same thing.
However, they say that the benefits of the Covenant of Grace Extend retroactively in reverse back through all of history. So the people who were saved under The Old Covenant were still saved on the merits and the basis of The New Covenant.
It just wasn't there yet. So the benefits of Christ were still extended to the folks in the Old Covenant. Same as they were in the New same. That's the same as the benefits being Of Christ to all Believers in in Presbyterian Covenant theology as well.
So while there's a distinction in the theology. The outworking of the benefits of Christ being given to those who are being saved is the same across across time. Does that make sense? At least to you because I can't ask anybody else unless they come in with a comment.
I mean, yeah, that's.
That can get a little complex.
It come.
When you're talking about had the different viewpoints from the Presbyterian and Reformed Baptist and and I'm totally I mean that that rings so well that music plays so well that That Covenant of Grace that extends from beginning to end.
No, I could see that. I read that. Understand that in Scripture. And so when you when you say you didn't know, you know, which branch I am. I mean, you know, I'm totally not sure either. I lean heavily.
1689 federal federalism. Um. But you know, I branch off from them where I branch off from you when it comes to the the The baptism and the Lord's Supper and the means of grace in that and then I'm gonna I'm gonna veer from them a little bit and lean more towards where you're coming from on this.
Even though. There is a difference. I mean there there is an absolute difference there's a line that has to be drawn between the old and the new. Even though the Covenant of Grace was there Abraham was was Counted it counted as righteous because of his faith.
I mean we see that that's obvious and we're his children through faith where his offspring and.
That's absolutely true. However. What where that line is is that one side has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in every believer and one side of that line does not so. You have to wrestle with that idea as well.
Yeah, but the the point made in in this chapter Is kind of a unifying thing across all of them the benefits of Christ. And his death burial and resurrection His ascension into heaven his kingship and lordship overall having no once for all Paid the sacrifice for sin and laid it upon the altar in heaven.
Those benefits extend to all folks who are being saved Old Covenant New Covenant Throughout all time and That's the unity that's being talked about in this chapter. And I think that that's a pretty pretty important significant point.
All theology. Well, and he starts in the right place at the very beginning the chapter. This is where he starts in order to receive all the blessings that Christ Procured as our mediator. We must be joined to him.
Yes.
There's no way around it. He Jesus is the way the truth in life. Nobody comes to the Father, but by him. So for anybody to receive the benefits of the covenant of grace, you must be joined to Christ. Mm-hmm, and I thought that was fascinating.
How he begins this chapter and he talks about that that Union The covenant of grace from my understanding is that that covenant between the the Trinity? That that he will save for himself a people and in Through their different as we've talked about in these other previous chapters through their different roles.
The out workings of that covenant It's procured by all their works all the Trinity working together that that that Union is Procured. And So we can receive the benefits of the of the covenant of grace because of the work of the Trinity the Father Son of the Holy Spirit and So but to receive them and to enjoy them you must have Union with Messiah.
Yep now It's probably Um fairly important to define what Union with Christ is. Just moving forward. In reform thought of Union with Christ is usually Mainly understood as a Uniting of Christ with the believer by the Holy Spirit.
You know in a way that that Christ is our federal head. In the same way that Adam was all mankind's federal head. The Holy Spirit unites us to Christ. That he is now our federal head. That he is our or husband you could think of as No Christ being the husband and the bride being the church.
That we are we are linked together in a union that cannot Be broken. Just like the marriage union the reason why God hates divorce so much is because divorce is a picture of Christ in his church. Christ is not going to divorce his church.
He doesn't want us to divorce our wives either. It's permissible in a few things. But we're not going to get into that. The point here is that just like there is a real union between my wife And I because we were wed together.
There is a real link and union between the believer and Christ because We've been united together Through the work of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit.
And that there's security. There's a lot of unity in this right because you can have security in your salvation in your union with Christ. Because the covenant was made within the Trinity.
Mm-hmm.
We we did not make. We did not make a covenant with God. He made a covenant within himself. So that's why we can have security within our salvation because it's all of him.
Right, right. Yeah, it's it's all of it's all of grace. Yeah grace. People sometimes the thing of grace is like a substance that gets thrown around. It's not it's just great grace. It is that unmerited favor of God?
Meaning that it's something that comes from God to us because God wants to not because of anything that we've we've done. So it's because God is gracious and good that it extends to us. But but union with Christ is not only that.
Union with Christ also has to do with us being Transformed into the the image and likeness of Christ. Not just that we are united with him that will finally receive all the benefits but that since we are united with him His righteousness becomes ours.
Not just in a Legal sense, but it but in a real sense that the believer will Will see To certain extents here or there will see the the righteousness of God become greater and greater in their life now.
I Want to be careful with that because some people may say well, I haven't seen myself grow in this area. I can't believe this person over here has been struggling with that sin for you know, ten years.
How now are they even saved because our works don't determine our salvation right, right, so When I say all these things I don't want us to look at. No, maybe our failure or maybe things aren't progressing as quickly.
Maybe our sanctification isn't progressing as quickly as we would like and so all of a sudden we say well. Maybe I'm not even saved because our justification doesn't rely on our actions. Our justification is reliant upon Christ and his work upon the cross in his grace.
So when were we saved. No 2 ,000 years ago upon the cross when Christ died for me. No, it's it's not about my works. It's about his works now once we've Come to Christ once we are united with him things change, but.
They change.
According to to God's will the way that he wants things done think think to John 3 Jesus talked about the Holy Spirit. You know, how does the Holy Spirit work? He does however he wants to he. He he's like a wind that blows.
You can see it over here. You can see her there. You don't really know what it's doing, but you can see that it works. Or he works. I should say yeah.
He touches he touches on it at the very end when he's drawing his conclusion. What you were talking about in in his conclusion Bill the paragraph. He says. Although our struggle to overcome the flesh and live faithfully for God in this life can at times be frustrating We should take heart that even the smallest evidence of growth in holiness is evidence of the Spirit's work in us.
Right it is. At the same time I would kind of caution us. There are there are unbelievers who make.
Who do.
Virtuous habits. They grow and improve and that doesn't mean that they're saved. We always look to Christ for our salvation. Our justification is found in him alone. It's not inside of ourselves. It's found outside of ourselves and in Christ.
So as long as we can keep those categories distinct and proper. Let's run with it. I like it. But but it's it's really important. I think there's a lot of conflation between justification and sanctification.
People get things a little bit mixed up and You know, it's easy to do if you don't think carefully through those things and recognize what the scriptures say in different different instances.
Let's see. I got off on a tangent and lost my place. You know, I do that in my preaching sometimes I'll go off on a tangent and forget where I was going next.
Oh, no.
Yeah, let's see.
But as we as we keep looking at this there's a lot of this stuff I think we can we can find commonality with with our brothers and sisters who I don't want to label them all Armenia, but Those who would not fall under the umbrella of Doctrines of grace Calvinism covenant theology we can find a lot of common ground.
Because It's biblical, you know, you can't deny that a lot of this stuff. It just comes straight from scripture. It's it's obvious in scripture. This is who God is. This is how he works and a lot of these things we can have in common.
But here is a distinction That does need to be made and it makes the distinction between a Dispensation list versus a covenant. The theologian or reform covenant theologian on page 221 at the The bottom of the last paragraph is already forged between the mediator and those who were given to him.
By the father in eternity in election and more precisely in the pact of salvation. But the decree about this Union the Sun became the elect substitute. Precisely because he already was in communion with them and was their guarantor and mediator.
So there's a distinction Amongst all that we have in common there is a distinction that we have with those who don't fall under the those don't believe in the doctors of grace. Calvinism is that we believe that Christ had union with the elect from the foundation of the world.
Not only was he slain before the foundation of the world, but you know that pact that covenant was set amongst the Trinity and so therefore Since he was slain in the foundation of the world that union with Those who would be his children Happened then as well.
It didn't happen in time as you've talked about before the reality of it took place in time. He procured it in time where he lived a sinless life. Down on the cross rose from the dead ascended back into heaven.
But it's always been seen as accomplished. And I think even though you know Big John doesn't believe in the doctrines of grace. He really he really brought a lot of insight into this from his thoughts on time.
In God's perspective on time and how he's always always seeing things as if it's already been accomplished. And that's why he can speak as if things have already been accomplished because we've always Been in union with Christ, even though what happens to us happens in time.
I just want to make that distinction.
Yeah, no, that's good. So one of the one of the ways that we are in union with Christ is that we're in union with with one another and so the Ephesians 2 puts it like this in verse 11 says. Therefore remember that formerly You the Gentiles in the flesh who are called uncircumcision by the so-called circumcision Which is performed in the flesh by human hands.
He says all that say you were Gentiles as You were called by the Jews. Remember that you were at that time without Christ. You without Christ Gentiles alienated from the citizenship of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise Having no hope without God in the world.
So you were No citizenship in Israel. So you weren't a part of Israel. You were strangers in the covenants of promise. You had no hope you without God in the world, but now.
In.
Jesus once we are Placed into union with Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit by the grace of God through faith But now in Christ Jesus you who were for who formerly were far off Have been brought near By the blood of Christ, which means that we are now citizens of Israel Partakers of the covenant We have hope and we are with God in this world.
So those are some incredible benefits Also Really hard to be a dispensationalist after that. But right, I know right? Yeah, I don't know. I'm sure I'm sure I'm sure there's there's answers and Stuff and so we're not gonna try to I'm not gonna try to be hypocrites and call someone out and say look at all these dirty Dispensationalist, but I'm just saying it says right here We were before not citizens of heaven not citizens of Israel.
We were didn't have the covenants We didn't have any of the benefits of Christ wouldn't have God himself But now that we have Christ we have all of this in him. So we've been brought into the the The citizenry we've been brought into the the covenants all those things that were promised throughout all the Old Testament And even through through all the prophets That were fulfilled in Christ are ours.
They are ours in Christ. Why because those are all Christ's and Christ's gods and It's amazing. It's wonderful.
There was a guy.
Go ahead.
Well, there were there was a statement in here That I wanted to ask you what you a question about. I wanted you to explain it if you could. You know, I didn't know I didn't know if this was. You know, you're talking about this earlier.
If this was a distinction between Presbyterian and Baptist or if I'm just not seeing the clarity here of his statement where and we we actually do have unity because I Want to understand what he's saying better.
So see if you can explain it for me. So I'm on page 223 right in the middle. Second paragraph. He says the profound point for the unity of the covenant of grace is that union with Christ includes participating in the Commonwealth of Israel.
God's Old Testament people were the heirs of the covenants of promise. To break in the covenant identity also meant to have you with union with Christ. Okay, it's so. It's it's he speaking Presbyterian East or.
Is this a something I'm missing that Baptist and Presbyterian can have in common.
This is one of those things that a lot of people are a lot of people Disagree with okay, not not reformed folks reformed folks should all all agree with this. Think of the olive tree in Romans 11. The unbelieving branches were broken off.
The believing branches were engrafted in what were they engrafted into their graft engrafted into that? Covenant people of God who were the covenant people of God. It was the Commonwealth of Israel so we are citizens of The nation of Israel now as believers now, that's gonna take off some people a lot of people most of the folks I would say in America or Or have some dispensation of leanings they've been told their whole life you have to keep Israel and the church separate.
Israel the church are not the same but what he said here is That unity in the covenant of grace is union with Christ which includes Participating in the covenant or the Commonwealth of Israel. Now, here's what I just read in in Ephesians.
He said that remember that You were at that time without Christ. Alienated from the citizenship of Israel. So you didn't have citizenship in Israel without Christ, but now in Christ in contrast to that now.
You who are formerly afar off alienated from God alienated from From Israel did not have the covenants and now the promise did not have God at all. But now in contrast to that you have been brought near by the blood of Christ all those things you didn't have before in verse 12 you now have in verse 13, so that means that we are citizens of Israel, which is why Galatians ends with a peace be upon Peace be upon the Israel of God.
Is that how it says it?
We go back.
Somewhere in there, maybe not ends, but it's in there somewhere. Yeah, and those who will walk in step with this rule Peace and mercy be upon them and upon the Israel of God. Mmm, so basically the nation of Israel was a people that was called out In the beginning in order to be God's chosen people.
Which means that their citizenship was never based upon Bloodline but was always based upon God's choosing of them to be his nation. Which is why he's able to break off unbelieving branches and engraft in new Believing branches because those are the ones who he's saying is a part of his nation.
See, I can see if you can simplify this. And and maybe help me understand it. Maybe help others understand it because this is where I where I stumbled I trip up and. So when I think about Abraham, we talked about earlier.
We talked about Abraham. Abraham's descendants heirs of Abraham, which is who we are. Because of faith right and and God promises him an offspring. Promises him a people. That's who we are. So, what does he mean here in the book by common when he uses the word Commonwealth of Israel.
So I see two different Israel. I see spiritual Israel which is what I just talked about. They were him and us his offspring and then National Israel who not not all Israel is Israel New Testament.
Right. There's a There's a physical lineage of Abraham and then there's the Covenantal lineage of Abraham of Abraham. Well covenant get covenant. We'll go with covenant. Oh, that sounds good so what that means is that there is there are physical descendants of Abraham who are never a part of the nation of Israel because Not all of Israel is Israel.
Because Israel has always been a nation of people who believe in God which is why they were punished so heavily in the Old Testament when they would go and look after other other gods which is also why God was so merciful to them to say no in the midst of their their exile to say I have I know the The promises I had I know the plans that I have for you plans to prosper and not to harm you.
It's not about giving a money in a 401k in a car it's about telling them that even in the midst of your destruction and the.
The.
Exile that you're you're in or going into.
That.
What what you're going to experience from this is the very salvation of your soul through Jesus Christ. Which you may not see but trust in me. I know the plans I have for you and he tells them no than 70 years.
You're gonna come back out of here. We're gonna rebuild the temple. We're gonna have. You know, the Christ is gonna come a little bit later is gonna save his people from their sins.
Yeah, so I'm not all. Stating it that way that there's a national Israel and a spiritual Israel.
Well, yes and no because.
The way that Israel is defined in Scripture is It's defined as the people that God has called to be Israel right. So the nation that God called together may have been made up of people who were Unbelieving.
Unbelieving. I'm trying to try to let you hear study this coffee. So it may have been made up of people who are unbelieving at one time. But those were still people who are called by God to being in covenant relationship with them.
So Since God defined the terms of who is in the nation of Israel to begin with he gets to continue to make. He gets to continue to define the members or citizens of that nation so they were. The nation was comprised of the physical descendants of Israel until the time of Christ.
When.
Christ when it was revealed to us that those who are of Faith are the real heirs of Abraham. They're the ones who are the heirs of the promises of the Old Covenant.
So, let's go down this rabbit hole just for a minute. So when I'm at the moment, he's speaking Presbyterian East. This is kind of what I was talking about. So you what you're describing there is is how you see the covenant with Israel and.
Just to tie in what's happening historically in the Covenant. All males were circumcised. But all males even though circumcised May not be Israel even though they identify. As being in the Covenant, they might made them may not be and show themselves to be Israel But yet receive the benefits of being in the Covenant because they are Nationally.
They they were and that they were in covenant with God. Right, they could have been and some of a lot of them were punished as covenant breakers.
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Yeah, so. From your perspective, how would a how would a Baptist. Would a Baptist see that differently? I don't think so.
Because Because of While they don't believe that the Covenant of Grace Was around until the New Covenant They believe that the benefits of Christ extended back to those who believed so they believe that there is a little is a little bit sharper distinction between a little bit sharper distinction between the time of.
A.
Physical nation of Israel and.
Or I'm sorry a genetically descended nation of Israel and a what they what They would describe as a spiritually descended nation of Israel from the time of Christ. I Think it makes sense. That makes sense.
Ask questions because I lost my train of thought halfway through and finished it off.
And I know this is complex and we're trying to.
Chase this rabbit down the hole of distinctions. We Baptist and Presbyterian. Oh, well the the distinction that you're saying isn't Necessarily it's not wrong at all between The the way that things worked in the Old Covenant the way things work in the New Covenant now.
The the reason why a Baptist and Presbyterians and Other paid about this have their issues is is exactly this issue. So how strong like is it just a Like a little dotted line in between the covenants.
Where? It was administered this way And now the same covenants being administered differently or is it this was a covenant with a physical people.
Now it's it's immediately changed to a spiritual people. That will contain some of the physical remnants. In which case Is it is it more sharply divided. Because if it's more sharply divided than the rules change Then it would be those who who are Spiritually born again who would be baptized only.
Instead of like the Presbyterians believe it being multiple administrations of the same covenant we baptize our infants because of the Command to circumcise and to have your children included in the Covenant of grace in the Old Testament administrations.
So if there is that sharp distinction, it does make some differences in how you play things out. But I don't necessarily think it it changes how you would view things as far as unity Amongst believers in the in the benefits of Christ.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, and but also that that sharp distinction if if you draw a sharp distinction there between the two covenants then you kind of ignore that continuity between the Covenant of Grace and.
Well, I Wouldn't say ignore because I would say that the dispensationalist would ignore it because they believe it's a whole different Dispensation start over but but it's it's more it's a little bit messier than that in the Baptist theology because The benefits of Christ from the Covenant of Grace do extend retroactively back to the Saints of the Old Covenant.
Whereas in in dispensationalism It's not really based upon covenant. It's just based upon Christ's work. So it's kind of it's a whole different framework.
And and I know this is where I veer from Presbyterianism and I may veer from from some badness but but we're I Guess where some Baptists Will see a discontinuity. Or where Presbyterians will claim that Baptists have a discontinuity or don't see continuity like they do.
I do see continuity just not in the same place and this is where.
Can I can see that continuity in the Covenant of Grace in this area and that is where? The Presbyterian Would would say that in the New Covenant the the sign of the Covenant which in the old was circumcision Switched over and it is now baptism.
And so that's why you you baptize your you're paid about just your. You baptize your infant. The continuity that I see is is the that that Switch over did not happen. The sign of the Covenant is still the same whereas Since the Covenant in the Old Testament was between God and man The the sign of the Covenant was done by man, but in the Covenant in the New Covenant.
Covenant. That was procured that cannot be.
Thwarted and.
Is and is applied is. The covenant that was made between the Trinity and. So the circumcision is now a circumcision that is done by the Spirit on the heart.
Well.
The the Covenant of Redemption was not a covenant made with mankind It was a covenant made concerning mankind amongst the Trinity. Mm-hmm, so.
It would be.
It's not the Covenant of Redemption that comes to people. It is. The outworking of the Covenant of Redemption amongst the persons of the Trinity is the Covenant of Grace that's extended to us. So it depends on when you think the Covenant of Grace began.
Did begin in the beginning. No, when God was gracious to folks. Or does it begin at Christ when he occurred? Well, well when he procured the substance of The substance of the grace that he would extend to all people who are being saved.
I wasn't gonna be all. I was gonna be fair. I saw you throw that in. No and and I.
Lean your direction on that, you know, and that's why I veer from the I guess 1689 is that I see its beginnings. You know. Well, you and I and our group have been looking at Covenant of Grace grace and baptism grace in the Lord.
So we've been looking at all that stuff and. And I can't help but see that. The Covenant of Works and Covenant of Grace. Well as we've learned Covenant of Works with was with Adam and then you have the Covenant of Grace, but the Covenant of Grace starting after that and continuing because of how the New Testament describes How the Old Testament believers are saved.
Excuse me, you got it. But so yeah, I'll lean that direction with you on that and where I see the Covenant of Grace beginning.
Well, a lot of a lot of Reformed Baptists will say that the the Covenant of Grace was was I almost want to say present in seed form that they would call that the old covenant the covenants of promise so that the old covenants were various promises of the coming Covenant of Grace that is Found in the New Covenant.
So while the Presbyterian would say that the Covenant of Grace was just administered throughout the Old Testament covenants The Baptists would say that that the new the Covenant Grace was promised and finally given at the at the New Covenant and then with the benefits of Christ were then retroactively given back to those Who had only received the promise but hadn't seen the fullness of it in Christ.
So they did.
No, yeah, I can actually see the picture. My head I'm actually this is a picture. Yeah, and and I totally see the the truth and what you just said, too.
And that's coming from a Baptistic perspective and and I see that as well. That um You know It hadn't been fulfilled yet. It was the the prophecy was the promise and It and it was fulfilled in time and Abraham and our forefathers Hadn't seen it.
Right. But but at the same time he was the lamb slain before the foundations of the world. I was gonna say yeah, you have that. It's there, too right, which which Brings into question, you know. How much how much?
Emphasis should we put on our relation to time? Since God is not related to time as we are so I mean a lot of this is probably outside of our pay grade because time and Like a fish out of water. We don't know that we're wet because we're in time.
It is it.
So, yeah, it's above our heads. It's outside of our pay grade and that's good. It's good. Because we understood everything about God. Wouldn't be that impressive. There should be there should be thing there should be things where we just come to a certain point we're just like.
Yeah, I don't know and that's why we can't fight with it with each other too hard. Exactly. It's because you have both going. I was gonna say the same thing you did that you have. You have the scripture that says Jesus was the Lamb of God that was slain before the foundation of the world.
That we we have had union Seen as having union with Christ that was Wasn't procure but it was a reality to the Trinity from the foundation of the world.
Right, and then it says that he was it was is. Once crucified and then placed the sacrifice upon the altar that happened in time. Yeah.
That at the right time he came. Mm-hmm. Yep. So there's there's a balance there that Presbyterians and Baptists Need to continue to work out together, I think.
Yeah, well, we should take a pay and hope nobody's hope nobody's important with listening. But we need to take a page out of the Lutheran's books and learn to bring to throw our hands up and just say that.
It's okay to have a little mystery because when the Bible says one thing and it says another thing It both can be true. We just don't have all the information because we're not God. So what we need to do is just step back and say well the Bible says this the Bible says this.
They're both true. I don't know exactly how it works together and Really me trying to think it out in my own flawed head is not the way to do it. I need to just back up a second. Remember who God is trust and believe in what he said here and here and hold those two truths to be fully true and Ordained revealed by God and then just say how does that work?
I don't know and I don't know if I ever will and I'm cool with that because God is great and I am NOT.
Yeah I.
Apologize. Do you want to go ahead and and share the gospel and I'll close us in prayer.
Absolutely. What better place to do that. And then from Acts 2.
Discussion.
So acts 2 starting verse 37 says when they heard this they were pierced to the heart and Said to Peter and the rest of the Apostles men brothers. What should we do? So he says hey, this is what happened.
Jesus came to the earth. He came in order to do good things and you go killed him. And they said oh no. What have we done? So it says what should we do? We have sinned against God. What should he says said to them repent and each of you Be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and we'll receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
For the promises for you who is a promise for your children. Yes. It says the promises for your children. It's for all who have other people over there who aren't here. It's for them to as Many as the Lord our God will call to himself.
The fact of the matter is that all of us who have sinned in This life, which is all of us at one point or another would have stood with those Jews who crucified the Lord and put our Hand to to the hammer and would have stood there cheering that the one who claimed to be the king of the Jews Was being crucified at the same time He was taking upon himself the sins of the world and for those of us who hear that message It should do like it did them cut us to the heart that we would do something like that.
That we do those things as we sin as we go out and do things that God has told us not to do. And yet he said, you know, what should I do with my sin? He says repent and be baptized believe in Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and you will find him to be that perfect Savior.
That is the message of the gospel. That is what the covenant of grace is all about that God in Eternity past has decided to save a people for himself and sent Christ to do that for us. That he would take our sins put it upon himself.
Die with those sins and then raise again to prove that even if we die in this body We will raise again like Christ did because we've been united with him. So that death has no hold over us and we will raise again to live with Christ in eternal bliss for all of eternity.
And that is an amazing and wonderful bit of good news. It hits it hits a little bit for me today we had a precious lady in our church pass away today. She's in her in her 90s on her husband's birthday.
He passed away just a few months ago as well so today They are glorifying their Lord together.
With.
Great hope. With joy in seeing Christ in front of them and that is the hope for everyone who turns from their sin and trust in Christ. To be their Savior. They will be standing there with joy for all of eternity.
It's good stuff.
Father you are a good Savior and we glorify you because you were the only one that is worthy. And your son who is the lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world is the only one that was that is worthy.
Worthy to open the seals. A worthy to open the book. Worthy to receive all honor glory and praise. We thank you for this couple who are united again in you and in location. Thank you for this testimony of the gospel that we may also enjoy salvation in you here and the time to come.
Thank you for Make covenant to rescue us Though and despite the fact that we rebel and sinned against you. Thank you for making your enemies your friend. We pray this in Jesus name Amen. Thank you for watching the truth of podcast.
We really appreciate it and as always remember that Jesus is King. Go live in the victory of Christ. Go speak with the authority of Christ and continue to go out there and share the gospel of Christ. Hope to see you real soon.