Open Lines: Sanctification, Auburn Avenue, James 5:19-20

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Hey, have you ever noticed these these clocks adjust date time there? It is is your clock as bad as as my clock is my clock is really bad
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And it's just now 201 it thinks it's 202 and I I think that's just a terrible thing so I'm gonna fix it there apply
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Okay, there you go. I wonder why they can't you know in this these advanced ages. Why can't your clock on your motherboard?
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Keep accurate time. I mean this thing's got that You know I could do the atomic clock thing in my
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Bobby Wobber on it, but yeah I know your sink with atomic clock, and I have an atomic clock sitting in front of me, but the computer clock is the issue and Unfortunately the computer clock atomic thing program.
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I've got can't find our stupid gateway So it it goes running off and and yeah, it says you're not on the internet.
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I'm on the internet the whole time Oh, hey, are we on the air? Hey there we go? Oh Hey, you know it's it's open line
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Cuz you didn't hey I did configure it right and the network
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Administrator has never quite figured out how to make Windows 2000. You know Understand this stuff cuz you know what can
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I say? He's not quite as advanced as the current technology is can you imagine if we had an
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XP unit in here? Gracious anyways oh Yeah, so so tired of Utah's Mac OS 10 has the ability to sync with the time servers built -in
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Yeah, but it can only run three programs. So what does that matter? Anyways, I think we're supposed to do a program today 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number and If you don't call that phone number today, this is going to be a very long 90 minutes, that's all
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I can say, okay Because I was asking folks. So what do we could talk about today?
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we're gonna talk about today, and I really don't know what to talk about today actually because Basically I've spent the past week doing two things
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Writing the responses the second round well Actually, it's the first round of responses.
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It's the second round in writing on The book with Dave hunt and everybody's going.
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What's the title of the book? I don't know ouch ouch Yeah, that could be that could be a good title actually that was my hamstring cramping up there
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There's a Jesuit spy in our midst who is trying to kill me One joint at a time.
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I've got plantar fasciitis in my left foot Light sprain in my right foot now. I've got tennis elbow and the right elbow and I won't tell you who it is, but you don't want to hear him sing
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Elvis actually I don't want to hear him sing anything I've actually you can't hear him sing anything because he doesn't sing loud enough to hear it anyways
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Which is probably a good thing, but head coverings ah there you go. There's there's a there's a topic sure
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We're gonna have syzygous call in now, and he's going to discuss head coverings. He just volunteered to do that so What's the way for the baby crying?
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Oh shut up anyways What in the world was I talking about oh? Yeah, before the hamstring cramp there ouch
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I'm not sure what the title this books gonna be and I can guarantee you about the only about the only thing and pretty much guarantee is that the term
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Calvinism is gonna appear in there someplace other than that I don't know and I don't really care one way or the other but Because I'm really not big into titles.
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I've only titled a couple of my Couple of my books myself, but anyways that's the main thing
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I've been doing and I've tried to do one response each day I missed one day So I got five done.
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I have six and seven yet to write I know what six is gonna be I have to cram all of my exegesis of acts 1348
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Well actually just correction of the errors that mr. Hunt makes on x 1348 and then all my exegesis of John 316 plus one short little response all into 2 ,000 words now
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If you don't know what 2 ,000 words is if you have a word processor try just starting writing something you could you know talk about?
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your childhood whatever Three and a half pages in not even three and a half pages in You will run out of 2 ,000 words.
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I mean, it's just not that That's it's not a lot of material. It really isn't 2 ,000 words is very short and so you've really
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For me that has been very challenging to try to communicate something clearly
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In that space of time it's it's very the space of well. It's not time, but you know what I mean anyways
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That's the main thing I was doing the other thing Now at this point we need to ask Pete who is in channel right now
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Who is one of our ops and and by whose wonderful offices we are doing this program right now?
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We're very very thankful to to Pete For allowing us to do this but Pete needs to turn his sound down for a few seconds because the other thing
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I was doing was Getting things set up and transferred over to my palm tungsten tea
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That's a PDA for those of you don't know It's a wonderful PDA. Hey the phone rang people want to stop me from talking
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Oh Well, that's interesting y 'all hear that is that here. Let me let you hear that In that in that cool isn't that neat now.
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Why in the world is the office calling me? I'm not gonna answer the office.
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I think someone's trying to call me on my cell phone, and it's the office calling me on my cell Phone that's really weird.
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I'm gonna move the microphone over here, okay? Oh Someone's on line one, okay,
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I'm picking up line one there. I just took the forwarding off of line one
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So it won't call my cell phone anymore You know one missed call well, you know
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I know I missed that call and it's okay that I missed that call It's alright. I'm gonna put that back in there. Anyways the palm tungsten tea is a wonderful PDA and The main reason
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I got it was not because my visor professional was not doing was supposed to do
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Very very simple I couldn't see the screen in certain lighting conditions I just I tried everything
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I could and I couldn't see it and the tungsten tea has an awesome TFT 64 K color screen, and it works really great so anyways
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I could talk about those two things we could talk about how to squish All sorts of things into only 2 ,000 words and hopefully make it understandable or we could have another discussion of PDAs and Haha, does anyone know if dr.
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White has written or debated about the regulative principle of worship and Christmas ah That that's interesting certainly there were
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There were many Puritans who disliked Christmas but I will take all comers on that subject because I love
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Christmas and everyone who has tried to Convince me that somehow there's something wrong in Celebrating the
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Incarnation of Christ I I've not found them to be overly consistent in their argumentation, so Hey the phone doth ring again, but that one's not going to my
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Cellphone this time not sure where it's gonna. Go, but anyways I Love and in fact one of the biggest problems.
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I have had Over the past number of years is I've been so busy During the holiday season that it just comes and goes and I have lamented a number of times.
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I've looked around I used to hear about Here in the
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Phoenix area people getting together and singing The Messiah handles
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Messiah, and you just bring your score with you I have two fully full scores for the Messiah And I would love to find where if that's gonna happen anywhere in Phoenix Someone is gonna do this where everybody gets together, and you sing the
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Messiah. I mean, it's just Incredible music it's just beautiful, and I love love handles
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Messiah and Pete and Canada wants to hear about the doctrine of sanctification in its entirety.
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Yeah, that's that's good. Yeah, that's wonderful Anyways, it's just it just goes too fast the holiday season goes by so fast the older and older you get and I'm really doing that Online now line one, so this is an actual phone call
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Pete and Canada Wants to hear about the doctrine of sanctification in its entirety
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Line one waiting. I don't hear anybody waiting I Still hear nothing
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Who is this this is Pete this is Pete this is this is Martha What you called me for that was a that was a bad representation of my question
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What question Oh Pete and Canada wants to hear about the doctrine of sanctification in its entirety I just read exactly what he's
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It's a little cold up there in Canada, huh Actually we're looking at about Minus nine
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So Oh entire sanctification and you it says entirety right there in in its entirety
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Okay Well, you know that changes the question completely yes
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It does I have a friend who's a very close friend very dear friend a member of the
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Church of the Nazarene Ah extremely Wesleyan It's theology and one of the things that he mentioned to me that I am
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NOT overly familiar with is this doctrine of entire? sanctification now what that speaks to me is it's
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Precisely what Rome teaches about sanctification, and I'm wondering if you could know it's not what
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Rome no I I Will let me start by saying first of all this is not an area that I've done any reading on outside of just general
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Theological comparisons of various and sundry groups, so I don't want anybody flooding us with emails going well
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You need to read this and you need to read that because I'm honest with you not interested But as my understanding is that there are groups
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And it's frequently tied to the concept of a second blessing where in essence the the bent to sinning is
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Removed that's what entire sanctification is and hence it's basically the experience of Sinless perfection in one's life that is a result of this this second blessing that a person no longer experiences any desire for sin and has experienced the fullness thereof of sanctification has been set apart and Made holy and that this is what a person is to be seeking to obtain is this
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Almost you know the Christian version of nirvana shall we say? Where you no longer have this desire for for sin at all in this life, and so?
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It results in in sinless perfection a B .B. Warfield addressed at least the concept of perfectionism
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Rather fully in one of his I have his collected works And he has a has a work on that subject, but since I think in all my years of ministry.
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I've like run into one person That that ever raised the issue. It's just never been something that I've taken any time to actually read any of the original
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Writings that promote it and that's why I don't talk about it much as if I had if I don't Listen to what someone's saying or read their own perspectives
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I'm a little bit hesitant to just go on these summaries that I've Heard in seminary, or you know read in a general basic introduction to theology type textbook somewhere else
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So so you're telling me I have to do my own work Well, you know I'm getting somebody in channel has really rubbed off on me and Basically when people come in asking me to you know to do stuff for them
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I basically start off by saying well first of all I don't give a rip and And Yeah, basically it would be good to you know do your own homework
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No, I I just honestly don't Don't run into folks that promote that it's not really big out here
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And so I I can't give you much more than that. I mean like I said Warfield's Stuff on perfectionism would probably still be just as valid today as it was about a hundred years ago
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Well the Church of the Nazarene has a big big following up here, I think it's because they're partially very very ecumenical and Canada has that kind of nature of it.
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Oh, yeah, yeah, that's So forth oh, yeah, so exactly why are you there?
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Why am I in Canada? Yeah? Because we're bigger than you Well Yeah, I guess in a in one sense you are but you know that's like that's like And I like to go to parties and boast about my huge landmass.
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Ah you're huge Matt. Oh landmass. Okay, all right all right, I Didn't quite understand to get a little static in the headphone there, so well, thank you for calling from the 51st state and we appreciate that and Well, thank you brother for your best attempt
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Thanks, sir Alrighty god bless, but I oh eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one
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Let's see how many How many more? Questions we can ask that I just simply go die
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Now I haven't the foggiest idea what this next call is about I'm gonna read it as it's been put on the screen.
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This person wants to talk about New Jersey Old Testament regeneration
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Now, I don't remember New Jersey in the Old Testament so What what is what is
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New Jersey? How did could you Steve? Could you tell me the relationship between New Jersey and the Old Testament?
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I think the question is coming from New Jersey. Oh Okay, all right, well
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I just That's it I quit that's exactly what just appeared on my screen is that's it
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I quit Well, hey, I would like you all to sit in this chair sometime and try to figure out what
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Steve space dash space New Jersey NJ space OT space
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Regeneration means, you know, okay. I'd like to see y 'all thread that okay Okay, Steve from New Jersey You'd like to know about Old Testament regeneration, let me give you a little background
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Or the reason I have the question and by the way, I can sympathize with your plantar fasciitis. I've had the same thing
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It's it's tough to get old particularly when you get up in the morning, you know Well, it's it depends on it really it comes and goes and it depends
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I never know when it's gonna hit and it's just it's almost like I've just developed a pain that moves from one body part to Another body part.
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It's just sort of a reminder. I think from the Lord that we do not live forever
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Yes, well, I've got two young children I'm in my mid 50s one of them's in a karate class and I'm in the class with him
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So I wear a brace on my knee. I got oh, yeah. Oh the braces man the ace bandages all that stuff.
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It's It's sad, but anyways, what's the background here? Okay several months ago
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I had called you and I had made Asked a question and it was on Psalms 119 and the role of the law.
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Excuse me. Excuse me It's also Steve did what was it on on Psalms 119 on Psalms?
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119 Okay, Steve. I'm sorry, but I'm I'm gonna have to let you know about one of my pet peeves.
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Yeah There's no such there's no such thing as Psalms 119
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There is Psalm 119 So if the music minister gets up in your church, and he says turn to what does he say?
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Does he say to hymns? 178 or to hymn 178 Just I should know that my father's a classical organist
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Oh, well, not only that but you know the thing that really bugs me. Oh my wife
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Just told me in in channel be nice dear I cut him some slack is what a omen just said.
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All right folks. Come on It's one of my pet peeves, especially when computer programs do it
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I have computer programs and I'll say get me this reference and it asserts it as Psalms Whatever and it's like no, it's psalm one not
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Psalms Anyways, I'm sorry. I have now taken you completely off track. Do you remember what you were gonna ask?
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Yes. Okay, Psalm 119, okay but then again, I Didn't I didn't confuse psalms in New Jersey Hey, I'm just reading what's in front of me man, you know, what can
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I say? Anyway, it was on the hundred and nineteen psalm and About the role of the law in the
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Old Testament and you had responded how we in the New Testament can Relate to the psalmist and oh, yeah
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Okay, what right and the issue came up and I sort of repeated what you said and the response well, well nobody was
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Regenerated in the Old Testament. They were all spiritually dead Yeah, and that's the thing and we talked a little bit about that and I was just curious
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What would be a good way some of the some ways you might respond to that to show that people were regenerated, you know
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Obviously we can turn to I guess it's Romans 8 and that you wouldn't even have the slightest desire to Want to do to comply with the law of God Unless you are spiritually alive.
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Well, I think that's coming from the New Testament. Yeah. Yeah, that's true well, we're using we're using
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New Testament terminology, but I I think the main thing
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I would go to is the fact that we draw some of our key pictures of Regeneration from the
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Old Testament, for example in Ezekiel When which is, you know, Ezekiel 36
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Jeremiah 31 both drawn from very heavily By New Testament writers by the Lord Jesus when he talks in Nicodemus, for example
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He draws from that Terminology and hence it it has to be understandable to the people to whom it was spoken.
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So when when the spirit blows across the valley of the of the dry bones and and brings life or when
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You have that kind of a situation I I think you you clearly have that there and then you have the idea of the remnant and what what are the remnants?
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What what is that? What are their characteristics? They are individuals who? Love God love is truth.
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It's the same kind of things we encounter in the New Testament as well So anyone who is who is going to be in love with with God's truth is going to be a person who's experienced that That kind of thing and and Jesus even talked about to Nicodemus and said it you're a you're a leader of Israel And you do not understand this and so it was from his perspective.
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It was this is not something new this is this is what the Old Testament was talking about when
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When it's talked about You're probably not in channel, but they're they're all mocking me for having having done that to you about Psalms So they're putting they're putting s's at the end of their necks just simply to There was no reason to I was
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I was just trying to help you to understand Anyways What was
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I saying? Oh Jesus assumed that Nicodemus should know what he was referring to It wasn't like this is some new thing that never been heard of before so It would it would concern me if someone said no one was regenerated in the
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Old Testament because I are they saying no one was saved or What it is is the group there is is rather charismatic so they look at the spirit being
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Mmm, that's that's interesting too. I mean that's that almost makes me
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I Have seen I have commented at times that that there seems to be a
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Reason why it's charismatics and Pentecostals who have less trouble accepting oneness theology than others
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There seems to be shall I say some Trinitarian imbalances amongst many charismatics and in my experience anyways
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Which would explain why? they can embrace a TD Jake's or a Phillips Craig and Dean and and the writers who are writing oneness music and things like that and putting it out
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Into quote -unquote contemporary Christian music because there's not a lot of understanding of the you know, the
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True doctrine of the of the Trinity. Well doctrine at all is frequently, you know downplayed in those particular context
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But anyways, yeah doctrine that contradicts with them. They'll tell you they don't believe in doctrine then they'll give you their own They just don't call it doctrine.
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It's what the spirit told me. Yeah, exactly, you know doctrine is teaching So they have their teaching knowledge. There you go, right?
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That's probably where I'd go as far as Demonstrating otherwise and and saying no if If the natural man could do nothing that's pleasing to God After the cross and he could do nothing as pleasing to God before the cross either.
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It's it's not It's not like something changed along the way. So Alrighty.
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Well now you look two things you got there. You got the answer to your question and You will never embarrass yourself by saying
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Psalms 119 again Just remember I'm older than you are Like I said,
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I don't get even I get ahead there you go, okay Alrighty, man. I was at your last debate. Oh you were yeah in Florida.
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No, I'm sorry the one in July and Okay, cuz I've done I've done one two.
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I've done three debates Yeah, I did six this year when you're getting out this way again, uh,
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January January January. Yep. I don't have the the stuff put together quite yet, but I know
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I know the last weekend in January the 25th and 26th,
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I'll be doing the Youth retreat for Hope Reform Baptist Church over in Tuscarora and then the night of the 26th
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I'll be speaking there at Hope Reform Baptist and probably coming back here the 27th So I'll be headed out there probably like the 16th or 17th of January and I don't
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Yet know which churches I'll be at but somewhere around there Do you ever think of taking your church history putting it into sort of a seminar and condensing it to a weekend or something?
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I have no idea why music just started in the background, but Thank you guys people in the control room.
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Just lost the last functioning brain cell Yeah, I mean there's lots you know,
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I find that fascinating and I like to I like to teach on it and I can teach on in a way.
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That's interesting unfortunately getting people to come to it is is And finding a church who would want to do it is the is the hard part.
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It really is Something that I know that our Christian Ed Committee is thinking of doing. Oh, well, probably nine months a year from now
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Sometime maybe next fall. We're just sort of batting around the idea right now But to have something on church history at the church and maybe have a seminar or something with it to tie it in during that time cool, well
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Let me know if it's going to be some time when I'm that out that direction or if we could arrange something is I?
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Love teaching church history. I really really really do I listen to the ones that you have on the on the on the on the
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Phoenix Reformed Baptist site, right? Mm -hmm, and and Frank that that's a graduate level program 45 members in your 50 members in your 53 members.
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Yes Wait, yeah, we have picked up some people that's right And I'm not part of it.
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My wife is from a Reformed Baptist Church. I'm actually leave through an EV free church You can go free but a lot of Reformed people there, right?
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And in fact, we have a Reformed Baptist Church nearby if we ever did something we draw a lot from that, too
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Oh good good. Okay. Anyway, excellent. Well, maybe we can work something out I mean there are there are things like on the
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Reformation and things like I just love lecturing on them. It's not it's not the dry Type stuff that you're a lot of folks think about history
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I I just I've never understood how anyone can teach in such a way as to Bore people
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III if you teach and bore people then go do something else I've I had an awesome church history teacher in seminary and he really got me jazzed on the subject and That's just the only way
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I know how to teach I try to teach Hebrew with passion I mean, that's just you know, that's just how it is. So Anyways, alrighty.
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Thank you. Oh someone just adopted the Nick Psalms 119 the channel see what you started See what you started okay,
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I'm gonna take a break and meanwhile, I'm gonna kick Psalms 119 out of the channel and Thanks for your call god bless thank you.
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Alrighty. Bye. Bye. Oh, we are having fun today Boink they're good
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Psalms 119 just got kicked out of the channel Anyways, oh are we taking a break?
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Yeah, I guess we're taking a break that you know you guys in there you started the music Minutes ago and and Steve just wants to sing
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I guess so We'll let him sing and take our break and answer your phone calls right after this Oh And welcome back to dividing line we are setting new records for zaniness today on the program not exactly sure why
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I guess that's what I get for opening up the phone lines. You never know Where we were just having a discussion in channel as to whether there were
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Eric Nielsen who just The insights that this man will offer at times
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It just leaves me Breathless it truly does so just a few minutes ago he
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Nielsen wonders if Old Testament Saints in New Jersey could be entirely sanctified and I tell you
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I I Don't know. I really I really do not know but I do know what
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Eric Nielsen one day posted in channel and And I want to read you
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This it's a sort of like a haiku type thing and we'll get to it we'll get to our next caller in just a moment but This is this is what appeared on my screen under under E Nielsen's Nick It says if they say to you the mammoth wears sunglasses
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Then you must reply it is the banana that cries in the night Are they Oakley's if they say what is the light that shines really really bright say it is the light that once grew hair
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If they reply what is the Coogee you must say Pat Robertson knits alpaca sweaters, that's
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That's what appeared on my screen and I saved it and Anytime that I want to I can just type slash en and that appears in glowing colors on the screen which is why
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I just did in channel and so if anyone ever wonders what happened to E Nielsen and How this so once mild -mannered
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Normal family man got to be the way he is who by the way, we need to give Congratulations to to mr.
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Nielsen Because he's expecting number six the the sixth munchkin to the
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Nielsen clan is Is is coming our direction. So congratulations to to E Nielsen and s
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Nielsen and I'm watching the reaction because you got to realize the channel.
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Here's what I'm saying about 20 30 seconds after I say it and Excuse me while I stretch my leg out, okay
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Boy at third set today just about killed me. Anyways, what we're supposed to do.
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We have a caller ready to go here I think we have a caller Ready ready to go here.
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And I've been told this will be a very Very serious question, so I need to get very serious in in answering in answering this question
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I have not been told what the what the subject of the question is, but I understand that it has to do with the possibility of how we should view the joining of the genetics of humans and arachnids and I I hear
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I hear giggling somewhere. I'm trying to be very serious here and someone's someone's giggling so anyway, so let's take our caller from All I know is back east somewhere and is that is that was that the question that you wanted to ask ma 'am?
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Well, there would be theological implications I think to the contemplation of spider -man, but Hopefully that's not what you were calling about actually
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What I wanted to ask was Basically with what's been going on lately concerning Auburn Avenue and everything like that.
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I've heard the terms You know with with the covenants coming up and I've also heard the term new
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Perspectivism coming up with with regard to that and I I know that there have been several less of us in channel that have been
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Just really curious as to what's going on with that. And so I was wondering what you have found out about that so far
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Well, I think I've told everybody in channel everything I know about it. Do you have anything else? No Obviously many folks who
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Are listening or going either? What are you talking about or yeah, I'd like to find out or the people in channel go
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Yeah, you already talked about that at least in channel because we have talked about a bit in in channel
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But to catch everybody up to speed You could go to sermon audio calm and I think if you search
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I'm not sure if if Auburn Avenue links to those particular sermons
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But I have listened to a question answer section and three of the presentations that were made
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Earlier this year at the Auburn Auburn Avenue. I believe it's Presbyterian Church is the full name
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I could be wrong about that. But anyways at a pastor's conference some of the people who spoke were
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Douglas Wilson Steve Schlissel Fell the last name of Barack My understanding is
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Norman Shepard was supposed to be there and for folks who don't know who Norman Shepard is Norman Shepard was dismissed from Westminster Seminary for teaching a doctrine of justification that was deemed to be
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Outside of the norm for a Presbyterian seminary and outside of the norm of Protestant Orthodoxy shall we say and so the fact that he was even invited to speak there is rather interesting and so I've listened to as I said about four sections from that Okay, someone
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Thank You syzygous just posted If you will search under the keyword of pastors conference
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Then you'll be able to come up with That Particular those particular things on sermon audio
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I listened to Barack's Brock His talk yesterday on Covenant and election.
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I've listened to Wilson's presentation on the curses of the
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New Covenant and Seemingly the relationship and and since I haven't listened to all of it,
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I'm I'm a little bit hesitant It's my understanding that a very small Presbyterian group has actually condemned
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The speakers as heretics for what they taught at this particular conference and did so fairly soon after it took place, which is rather intriguing and interesting, of course, but My understanding is that the the connection that exists with new
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Perspectivism and supposedly should define that we've talked about in the program briefly in the past But that goes back to Really a view of modern scholarship
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EA Sanders Really very important in the development and popular popularization of it
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NT Wright is one of the main proponents of that today. It's it's basically an idea that that says that Justification by faith was really a part of Paul's apologetic to keep the church together
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It's not really definitional of the gospel in any way shape or form And it's really only for Gentiles.
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He only emphasizes for Gentiles in reality Jews can be saved under the Old Covenant and Just basically we have misread
34:47
Paul thanks to reading Paul through the lens of Luther and Calvin and individual justification
34:55
Person's relationship to to God via justification is really not what
35:00
Paul was really concerned about instead he was concerned that there be one
35:06
Christian Church and hence, he emphasized That there can't be a
35:12
Jewish Christian Church and a Gentile Christian Church that were all made right before God in one way, which up to that point is true, but because of importing some ideas about the views of Judaism in what's called second temple
35:26
Judaism. That is the Judaism the days of Jesus and Paul The idea is that the
35:32
Jews had a much higher view of grace than at least we have understood them to have
35:38
Mediated through Paul's writings now. I point out that those who originally started developing these things did not believe in such concepts as inerrancy
35:46
They didn't believe that you have to actually Harmonize your interpretation of Paul with maybe
35:52
Peter or Jesus or anybody else They in fact would say that you don't you can't even harmonize
35:57
Paul at that at that point and so it to see news to see their work become the foundation upon which other work is done and then that seeping into Conservative churches where there's a much higher view of Scripture bothers me because people aren't aware of what the background
36:15
To these things really really comes from but anyways, it really is a an artificial
36:23
And I would say extra -scriptural Paradigm that is forced upon Paul's writings and as a result this new perspective
36:33
Tends to be a very similar to Roman Catholicism in its view of justification
36:38
It tends to throw the final justification off to an eschatological perspective
36:45
Many of these people develop very much the idea of doing works that that then merits this eschatological justification and So it's it's obviously something that should be very
36:58
Very much concerned to people in regards to the fact that it's becoming more and more popular
37:04
But I think the connection between that and the things that I heard In the
37:10
Auburn Avenue, for example yesterday when I listened to to Barack's Presentation he was talking about election and in essence he
37:20
The idea is it comes from a Presbyterian view of the Covenant and the New Covenant from my perspective as a
37:26
Reformed Baptist the the error that the Presbyterian makes here is reading the New Covenant as if it's the old and The distinctives of the
37:35
New Covenant are are in essence wiped out the the betterness the the term better used in in of course the book of Hebrews is
37:46
Turned into something other than truly better on an on a real scale of being different Instead as as Wilson has put it in one of his books on baptism.
37:56
The New Covenant is better because there are more Regenerate people in it than there were in the
38:02
Old Covenant And I don't think that that's in any way shape or form what the writer of Hebrews is talking about I certainly don't think that Jesus's sacrifice is better than the sacrifice of bulls
38:12
On any other level than being different than those sacrifices of animals And so I believe the
38:18
New Covenant is different because it's a covenant in his blood And I believe that a any meaningful exegesis of Hebrews chapter 8 that does not automatically start with a presupposition about the nature of the
38:34
Covenant a meaningful exegesis of Hebrews chapter 8 will lead you to believe that all those who are in the
38:41
New Covenant the covenant in his blood who have Jesus Is their mediator Jesus is their intercessor that those are the elect of God?
38:48
They are regenerated their sins are forgiven are remembered no more, and they are the ones who will Experience eternal life in Jesus Christ well as Barack was making his presentation
38:57
He in essence was saying from their perspective if you're baptized Then you are in the covenant because the
39:03
Presbyterian view is the covenant equals the church And of course we would say the
39:08
New Covenant equals the true church in the sense of those who are united with Christ But they were actually making the assertion in this particular these particular presentations that we can't we can't function on that basis and instead what they are attempting to say is that if you are baptized you're a
39:32
Christian and Wilson's thing was you know if you're baptized you're now you have now you covenant obligations
39:38
And if you don't keep your covenant obligations Then the curses of the Covenant come upon you and that's what that's all about and then
39:43
Barack is saying Actually when you look at Ephesians 1 Ephesians 1 is not talking about individual
39:53
Salvation or individual union with Christ Individual forgiveness of sins it is it is a corporate election that is in view there he even used the terms that that we have heard many times used before Christ is the elect one and I found that fascinating because I know that the historic reformed exegesis of Ephesians 1
40:19
Has emphasized. I mean this is one of the key foundational passages where we get the doctrines of grace and yet here
40:26
I'm hearing a Presentation of it that in essence rips the ground out from underneath individual election of the
40:34
Salvation and makes it a corporate election but not a specific election of individuals and It was it was fascinating that this idea.
40:43
Well, you've been baptized. Therefore. You're a Christian you're of you're of the elect and here the the term is being used in an equivocal fashion because in essence in Barack's Presentation the elect became the church the entire church just like in the their view of the
40:57
New Covenant. It's made up of both Those who truly will be saved and those who are not and now
41:03
I have lots of questions. I would love to ask That a person can be electing to be lost are these people regenerate are these people justified what's you know, what's what's going on here, but I Haven't had the opportunity of asking those questions.
41:21
It was very troubling. And of course it goes back from my perspective to a misreading of Hebrews 8 and a misreading of the nature of the
41:28
New Covenant and the work of Christ as the mediator of that covenant And his work of intercession.
41:33
I Would like to have someone explain to me How there can be a disjunction?
41:40
Between Christ as the mediator of the New Covenant and Christ's work of intercession because the
41:46
Covenant is in his blood. I Just I don't every time
41:51
I ask about that. I get well you go back to Genesis and yeah Whoa, wait a minute. What do you mean go back to Genesis?
41:58
I understand the the Covenant of Grace but if you're gonna start talking about the Covenant of Grace the Covenant of Grace preceded the
42:03
Old Covenant and If you go back to Adam if you go back before Abraham There was where you know,
42:10
I just don't see the consistency of of the argument that's being presented there. So on the
42:16
Reformed Baptist discussion list The term that I saw used to just this week was hyper covenantalism and Yeah, hyper covenantalism and I I would agree with that.
42:29
I would I I'm not sure how a historic Say Westminster Confession of Faith style
42:39
Presbyterian would argue against this perspective simply due to the fact that They're both starting with what
42:47
I believe is the is the problem and that is a misreading of Hebrews 8 and the nature of the Covenant the
42:53
New Covenant anyways and the distinctives that are part of that New Covenant, but at least from my perspective that's where the that's where the issue has to be joined and then the the conclusions that are being drawn from that can then be can then be addressed the connection that I was trying to get to that I see between what's being said here is
43:13
Since they're they're saying look you can say to all of your congregation as long as they've been baptized
43:21
You are the elect you are in Christ then the idea is
43:28
Fundamentally the the final Way of knowing who really is and who isn't is
43:37
In the end times, it's it's at the it's at the eschaton It's it's a part of eschatology and that's what
43:42
New Perspectivism is saying is that the fundamental Demonstration of justification is in the end times.
43:48
It's an eschatological thing rather than a present thing and that's where I'm seeing the connection between these two in in making that Eschatological aspect of justification the primary aspect instead of the the at least the historically reformed viewpoint, which says hey
44:07
Justification is something we look back upon it is by faith alone It is it is something that is based on Romans 5 1 etc, etc
44:15
And I think that's where the the connection is coming through from from that from those people Yeah, and that's what has really been kind of disturbing me about what
44:25
I've heard is, you know, not only the the Hints of New Perspectivism, but what you were saying about the hyper covenantalism
44:32
I just can't I mean, I guess in all the times that I've even spoken to Presbyterians I've never heard them say something like just because you were baptized automatically.
44:41
You're a member of the elect Yeah, well it part of that involves an equivocation on the term elect because they're they're expanding the term beyond its normal reformed use of Individuals who are the objects of God's eternal decree to save Into a covenantal concept and that's why things being called hyper covenantalism
45:01
Is it at least the the Presbyterians with whom I have dialogued? Historic Presbyterianism if I am reading it correctly and I'm gonna have a lot of people are gonna just absolutely laugh at me for this but my understanding has been that the
45:17
Concept of the what we would call the doctrines of grace and the substance of the gospel was the primary thrust and then the concept of the covenants and the and Covenantalism and the things that spin off from that was was subjugated to those key things
45:36
What's happened here is there's been a flip and the idea is look if we're gonna believe what we believe about the covenant
45:42
Then it becomes the controlling factor over everything else And if we really believe that baptism places you in the covenant
45:48
Then these are the things that follow and you're getting a redefinition of terminology that's been used in a particular way for a long long time and You know, we haven't heard the end of this there's gonna have to be some real discussions in the future and It's very troubling to hear these things
46:07
I would I really really really really want to get some time to Post an exegesis of Hebrews chapter 8
46:18
I was gonna talk with Simon and with gobbler and the other folks on the do exegetical work on the staff and and Say let's let's put our heads together and let's post a solid contextual exegesis of Hebrews chapter 8 and then invite those
46:36
Who want to say? that the covenant is In in the
46:42
New Covenant in Christ's blood is Better than the Old Covenant only in the sense that there are more regenerate people in it
46:50
I would like to see a a counter exegesis a based upon the text itself
46:57
Offered that does not have to run off to other considerations tell us what the writer of Hebrews meant when he presented this argument and I'd like to have the time to do that I'm trying to find the time to do it
47:11
But as I look over the next couple of months, I just want to die, you know If I had hair I'd pull it out.
47:17
So, you know, I have many many desires I even wanted to take the time to maybe talk to some people on a certain a certain bulletin board on the web
47:26
But who has the time to do this kind of thing? I mean, you know, is there is there a bulletin board on the web that you would suggest people go to and and possibly
47:37
You know Where would folks find that? They would find it at www .reachingforchrist
47:49
.org Reaching for Christ for Christ Dot -com dot org dot org dot org.
48:02
Okay. This was a shameless plug Borrowed that from Michael Medved.
48:10
So we need to get some shameless plug music that we can play for a shameless plug Thank you, thank you very much appreciate that and if you'd like to hear this particular person like to see this particular person's bio
48:23
Go to www .reachingforchrist .org Giggle and there it you will find that.
48:33
Oh We're breaking her up, okay. All right. We need to stop that. Well, anyways, hopefully that was a
48:39
Yeah, yeah a omens looking around looking for staff Hopefully that was a useful useful response.
48:46
I know it got a lot of folks in the channel going. Hey, what's what? Are you all talking about? And of course, there's one one fellow in channel who just won't won't call in everybody keeps saying call in and call him
48:57
But he won't do that. So anyways, we do need to go on to other callers. Thank you for calling today Thank you.
49:02
All righty. Bye. Bye Eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one.
49:10
Mm -hmm I'm not a ventriloquist. So I cannot I cannot drink water and talk at the same time
49:18
Really dry today, you know, I mean the the humidity out here is just like Non -existent it is it's winter.
49:26
What's the humidity 10 % dew point 14 degrees? It would have to get down to 14 degrees and it's 74 right now for due to form on anything that tells you there basically is no moisture in the air at all and it is causing all sorts of pains and difficulties, so anyways, uh
49:45
You did if this call takes too long. We'll have to hold over to these the last half hour here
49:52
Let's go ahead and talk with James down and ah James James.
49:57
How's the arm James? The arm is good. You know, that may be why
50:02
I had problems playing tennis today. Really? It's possible. I mean that was the arm that's
50:08
Vanquished you but anyways That's that's a possibility. You never know. I haven't seen those pictures, by the way, you know,
50:15
I Had my pal sent it to me and they're kind of blurry. I'll still load them up anyway, but they're kind of blurry
50:21
How can they be blurry they were taken on a on a digital camera? Well, I don't if you recall the pictures that he took from you on the pulpit they were blurry
50:29
Oh those were yes, but but the but the ones right there and in the in the restaurant I mean, he was only a few feet away while we were arm wrestling on on in the middle of a
50:39
Table of TGI Fridays Well, I don't know one of them you we can't really see like the angle the picture was taken was poor and the other one
50:49
It is in fact blurry, but I'll load them up And well, but people can still understand what's going on, right?
51:01
Oh, oh so now so now I'm supposed to I'm the one who loses now, okay
51:08
We could just you know, have a rematch if you did that Well, thank you, yeah, okay.
51:16
Anyways, so James from Denton, Texas How are you sir,
51:22
I'm great Good good. Good. Good. I'm not having a good weekend.
51:28
Why not? I just played lousy tennis today and it was it was just I Guess I'm just getting too old to do that kind of stuff anymore
51:36
I guess I just need to go over to the exercise cycle and just sit there and and spin It's just it's a it's a sad thing.
51:43
But so enjoy your youth young man. Anyways, what were you saying? My question was in regards to James chapter 5
51:49
James chapter 5 is that in the Bible? Yes.
51:54
Oh, you mean the epistle of James? That's correct. That's James chapter 5. Okay. Yes And verses 19 and 20
52:04
Okay Uh -huh, and the questions in regards to eternal security
52:10
Well, the first thing I would point out is that's not what James chapter 5 is about so the first thing that I would point out is we're
52:20
Applying a passage that is not discussing eternal security to the subject of general script which it may or may not but you have to be able to establish the
52:29
Direction James 5 19 says my brethren if any of you strays from the truth and one turns him back Let him know that he who turns a sinner from the errors of an error of his way
52:37
Will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins Okay. Yes, so your question is well
52:45
This is a person who is a Christian and strays from the truth and therefore was going to be lost
52:51
But is turned back and is therefore saved well, if if the word sinner in verse 20 is referring to Somebody who's not a believer,
53:02
I don't see any problem with this passage at all Because it's it would be used as an analogy, right?
53:09
Yeah, but the first first part Wanders from the truth. Mm -hmm.
53:14
Yeah, so is it when whoever turns a sinner is it referring to a believer who sins?
53:21
well, you know, I'll use this as an illustration one of the problems with most conversations
53:32
On subjects like this and indeed on many subjects soteriology things like that focuses upon attempting to Answer questions based on passages that were never intended to be applied to that subject in the first place
53:49
James is talking to believers and he's talking in very practical terms I mean if we want to talk about eternal security, we're gonna go to passages that specifically refer to eternal security such as John chapter 6 and the
54:03
Father's will for the Son and and Passages like that and and many of the books the big huge books that people like Dan corner crank out that attack the the concept the perfection of the work of Christ are filled with Passages where you go someplace and you say well
54:19
If this means this and this means this then isn't the conclusion someplace over here? and I think one of the things that we need to learn to do and it's
54:28
I Remember when I explained this to someone who who works with us in answering questions
54:33
He was asking about how do you respond to a Jehovah's Witness who uses this passage in John about the
54:39
Holy Spirit? He says he says this about the Holy Spirit based upon this one verse and I said well
54:45
You can't refute that and he's like what I said in that one if that's the only context you have
54:51
Then that is a legitimate way of reading the text and that really bugged him to no end
54:57
I said, but see you got to realize God didn't give us just that one verse and if you certainly you can misread a passage without violating the grammar without violating the immediate context
55:09
But God's truth is given to us in the wholeness of the revelation that he has provided to us in the scriptures so when when we work in the apologetic realm
55:21
We have to be careful that we don't become focused upon trying to find a refutation especially when there isn't a refutation because That passage really isn't the passage that answers the question
55:37
So I'm using that in a roundabout way in this particular section. James is giving simple instructions to the church and We don't know who the elect are and who the non elect are so from our perspective all we see are people who
55:52
Maybe were in the fellowship for a certain period of time, but they're in danger of going away and we're being encouraged to To contact them to encourage one another just as Hebrew says encourage one other while it is day
56:06
To lift up the weak hands and the feeble limbs and so on and so forth. James is encouraging people to Go out and to if you know someone who's left
56:15
Bring them back in and he's not attempting to present a discussion about whether that person
56:21
Was saved before and it's now just getting saved or was in danger of being lost or anything else He's simply talking to Christians from our perspective.
56:28
We don't know where to go we're to hold each other accountable and if that person comes back then then that's a
56:36
Wonderful thing and we've we've saved that person's soul from death But I don't know what his position was before that and that isn't really the issue of the of the passage either now
56:46
The problem is the only people who will accept that are people who are serious about exegeting the entirety of Scripture People who have their traditions and are only concerned about defending their traditions are not going to find that kind of response compelling and I gave up about Eight years ago worrying about people who are only concerned about their traditions
57:10
I've when I was younger, I would have talked until I was blue in the face to try to compel a person
57:19
In regards to a particular business. I don't do it anymore If that's not enough for somebody if I can't lay out simple exegetical issues and things like that and if if they're not really serious about Listening to what the
57:30
Word of God says and wanting to know it and all they want all they're concerned about is their traditions Well, there's nothing
57:36
I can do about nothing I can do about at all, so That's how I'd respond to James 5 a that's not what he's talking about B He's talking to Christians go do this type of thing see applying that to the doctrine of eternal security is invalid
57:49
How's that? Yeah That's pretty cool. I have to admit
57:55
I Started reading James, and I've heard you say recently John James hold on just a second.
58:02
We're gonna hold you over through the break We need to take our break, and then we'll come right back to you and to our other callers here on the dividing line 877 753 33 41 8 7 7 7 5 3 33 41.
58:14
We'll be right back Today So many stars
58:29
I Agree that Pete has the best ideas of all I don't know why I said that I don't remember why
58:35
I said that anyways we were talking to James We were talking to James who is going to very quickly wrap up the
58:43
Continuation of the question he had because our lines are full And I'm really not accustomed to that and I never had to once threaten to have
58:51
Warren sing Elvis either So I'm really really shocked. I don't know what's going on. There must not be anything on TV worth watching or something so James You were saying
58:59
I'm sorry sir Do you ever say
59:04
Psalms by the way no good, thank you I would agree with that then in what way
59:16
Does by when you bring a brother back in what way are you saving a sinner from death well from our perspective?
59:22
a person who wanders away from the truth The truth is life. He's wandering away from life.
59:28
The only thing you can get if you want away from life is death Again, it's an issue of perspective and what's being addressed from our perspective when you see a person leaving
59:37
The the the fellowship of faith or walking away from the influence the gospel They're not going to find life anyplace else and so from our perspective with our limited understanding of the future and the nature of men's
59:50
Hearts, we're just simply being encouraged to to be involved in the lives of others
59:56
Don't be so focused upon yourself that you don't see others take the effort warn people and Recognize that God has ordained the ends and the means and we're the means and so we're to do
01:00:08
What we're called upon to do and I have I have had to warn people myself and it's a it's a solemn
01:00:14
Testimony a solemn duty, but it's something that we need to do and I don't I I don't do it based upon whether I Have somehow determined whether this person is one of the elect or not or whether they've been regenerate or not
01:00:26
Those are things that are beyond my ability to know all I can observe is what they've done And if they are wandering away from the truth, then
01:00:33
I am to go and I'm to speak the truth to them Okay. All right.
01:00:38
Thank you, sir. God bless. Bye All right. Let's get this next. Let's get to to Paul before he before he chickens out on us because you know
01:00:47
He just said he was gonna hang up and so as long as he'd have you have you hung up popo
01:00:54
Hello. Actually, I think you've got unicl online right now. Oh you Okay.
01:00:59
Well fine someone you still there? Oh, oh That's good guys.
01:01:06
You put unicl on and then yeah, okay I got I just got an apology from the people and they're not accustomed to this popularity.
01:01:13
They're really not there Unicl you you stay right there. Don't go anywhere. We'll we'll be with you in in just a second.
01:01:20
However, I'm not taking any eschatologically oriented questions, so Unicl just you know, you know that Okay, so just under hi
01:01:31
Paul. How you doing? I'm doing fine. No worries mate I Swear James your
01:01:41
The Brits tell you your British accent sounds Australian and I think the Australians are gonna say your
01:01:46
Australian accent sounds British well, you know as I was watching a police program today on the telly and They had a chase down in Australia and they had the constables down there.
01:01:59
Oh, yes, and they were What was really strange to say we're chasing the man with cop cars and an ambulance they're so worried about him
01:02:07
You know that they're chasing with an ambulance too. And it was it was very very strange listening and talk.
01:02:14
They talk just like you Yes, sir, oh yes, what topic do we have today?
01:02:22
Anyways what I want to know A little bit of more information what's going on with the with the hunt book?
01:02:29
We had some people In channel earlier asking questions. Unfortunately, I missed it. Well, I just gave a brief report and unfortunately,
01:02:37
I don't think yeah No, were you in that secret little room? I said, yeah.
01:02:43
Well, then, you know more about other people I Am I'm not
01:02:52
I really Right now don't know what this book is gonna look like I'm concerned about the fact that have you heard the the debate between Dave Hunt and dr.
01:03:03
Piper? Yeah Well, then, you know what pretty much every single chapter from Dave Hunt is like it goes all over the place
01:03:12
It's just it's it's all over the road and my presentations I tried to keep as focused as possible
01:03:20
So that there would be clarity but Hunt stuff is just it's everywhere and the problem is when when he will make an error
01:03:29
He can make an error in in three sentences that would take ten sentences to explain
01:03:34
I only have two -thirds as many words to respond to him And what really concerns me is how is he going to respond to the exegetical presentations that that I have made?
01:03:42
I don't know he's using all sorts of words like Calvinism makes a mockery of God blasphemous odd how odd Audacious for Calvinist to change the
01:03:53
Bible. It's very shrill. It's very rhetorical. It's very emotionally based and there's there's
01:03:58
The one or two attempts at exegesis have been in error each and every time so I don't you know
01:04:06
I pray the Lord uses uses anything that I write I chose to do this book because I wanted to reach an audience.
01:04:12
I otherwise wouldn't right but on a Human -level, I just I just have to shake my head and go this is this is extremely difficult to To really address and I just don't know which direction it's gonna go.
01:04:27
I really don't I mean, I'm I'm not I think any person who is Familiar with examining arguments and you and I both know that that's not a large portion of the human population
01:04:38
But right anyone who is familiar with examining arguments on a fair basis There's no question already from what
01:04:45
I've seen since I've seen his presentations my presentations and I know my responses I don't need to say any more to know what the conclusion of the book is gonna be but How is he going to handle that as it could become even more shrill in the responses?
01:04:59
Yeah, or is there gonna be an attempt to interact with what I've said? I don't know. I don't expect it because the cross -examination was the most frustrating part of the debate between Dr.
01:05:08
Piper and Dave Hunt. I didn't understand most of one what Dave responded with. Did you know?
01:05:15
I couldn't make heads or tails out of a number of the responses. You can tell dr. Piper couldn't either So it's just like Okay, I don't know where it's going, but I hope to see it out
01:05:28
Well, I'm gonna try to finish up by by Monday on mine I Dave's travel schedule is considerably
01:05:36
Tougher than mine is Well There was discussions of when we wanted to get it done and we're already well past that there isn't a deadline in the sense that Now we have to send what we're writing now back to the other person and then we have to write
01:05:59
Thousand word responses and then send it back and there's 500 words and 500 words So, I mean there's there's a number of there's still a number of steps to go
01:06:08
The problem is the response has become shorter and shorter and I mean a thousand words is what maybe a page and a half
01:06:15
So that's that's not much. So, you know, I want to get mine in by Monday and then we'll see, you know
01:06:22
We can go from there. Okay. All righty. If you have any good suggestions for titles
01:06:28
I'm absolutely serious I'm absolutely serious. If anyone has any good suggestions for titles because I don't
01:06:34
I mean the Calvinism controversy would seem to fit with me You know, but I'm not sure
01:06:40
Bethany house would like that because this isn't being published by Bethany house Yeah, yeah, there you go, there you go, yeah what's with the mutant in the
01:06:53
Calvinism controversy Be more More accurate but Yeah, if anyone has an idea,
01:07:02
I I would actually like to have it because someone might come up with something That's that's really good. So, okay.
01:07:07
All righty I only have two more to do
01:07:13
Okay, and I already know exactly what the next one's going to be and I'm gonna try to finish that up tonight
01:07:18
All right. All righty. Thank you very much, sir. God bless. Bye. Bye 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 41.
01:07:26
Can we get to unicle now? Yes, sir. Hello unicle Hey, you should have taken the question eschatology though.
01:07:31
No, no, no, you know better than that I had a horrible headache caused by a hyperpredator.
01:07:36
It's yesterday. So I Have a did you hear about me? No, have you been listening at all about the last 15 minutes?
01:07:44
I just heard that your tennis game is suffering. Oh horrible, I If you stood out there you would absolutely positively
01:07:53
Well, you wouldn't stand out there. You'd walk away shaking your head going. That's not the same person I played
01:07:58
So, you know what? I would suggest is probably up the tension in your strings a little bit because you are in high altitude
01:08:04
High altitude where we're only 1 ,200 feet. Well, that's high altitude for me Yeah, well for a
01:08:10
Floridian anything over 200 feet is high altitude Then here's the question Warren just walked in says because of my opponent which it is.
01:08:19
There's no two ways about it. So anyways, okay Here's the question. Okay a couple weeks ago. You did a debate with John Sanders on open theism inclusivism.
01:08:27
Oh, yeah Got a question here that's been Myself and somebody else been wrestling with for a few days
01:08:37
What would you say would be the test of heresy let's say Somebody from the body of Christ he's still wrestling with that question
01:08:49
Open theism and inclusivism, especially in the way in which someone like John Sanders does
01:08:55
What what would be your your text your test of orthodoxy and and why would you say that that person is not one of the elect?
01:09:03
well, I Not that you're the judge no and that's just it
01:09:09
I Mentioned at the time of the debate that I try to I try to avoid
01:09:22
The common application and that is Our tendency is to focus on the individual rather than upon the teaching and I try to focus upon the teaching
01:09:32
I do not believe that open theism is within the pale of orthodoxy. I do not believe that That it can be defended as being a
01:09:43
Biblical model it is directly contradictory to the exegesis the text of Scripture and we tried to and I think we established that I do not believe that there was an exegetical basis offered for that belief at the debate at RTS and so The teaching is is not biblical then again
01:10:05
Denying the depravity of man is not biblical either, but I believe that there are people who because of their traditions end up teaching errors concerning things and The issue is do you have to have a perfect theology to be one of the elect?
01:10:23
I think everyone will say no you do not. Well, where do you draw the line? Well, that's just it
01:10:30
I think that biblically you draw the line at Who Christ is and what he's accomplished in the gospel now
01:10:37
I I'm not saying that a person who isn't a five -point Calvinist isn't going to heaven or something like that, right?
01:10:43
But the issue that we're facing here is you have an individual who on two levels?
01:10:50
Both in regards to the the nature of the gospel the atonement the deadness of man and sin the necessity of Confession of faith in Christ and on the level of the nature of God in regards to God growing and learning
01:11:08
That's a a pretty large amount of Error to pack into Explaining that simply on the basis of tradition
01:11:21
No, you're not you're talking about well and not only that you're talking about an Arminian who is a
01:11:27
Self -professed Arminian understands what the ramifications are and goes beyond that That's when you start having a real hard time
01:11:37
Saying hey brother something along those lines again, I don't think that I have the the ability to look into somebody's heart, but I can certainly say that what someone's teaching is is not the gospel and That if they don't show any concern about that that that would probably indicate a problem in that area, but I I again,
01:12:00
I don't think that that's the the best That's not the one of the best things we can be spending our time really focusing upon I think the issue is really getting the information getting the truth out in regards to the nature of God and the necessity of Repentance and faith in the name of the
01:12:19
Lord Jesus Christ so on so forth so and I think that's what happened in those debates Well, so then someone like that would you say?
01:12:26
That maybe it's better than just to not really focused on whether you think the person is quote saved and just worry about Basically what it is that they're teaching.
01:12:38
Yeah, exactly You know don't even worry about the person themselves. Are you just gonna share the gospel? Well, I would ask anyone who is overly concerned about the particular individual, okay?
01:12:47
How much time have you spent really focusing upon being able to respond to what they're saying you say you agree with me that what?
01:12:54
They're saying is wrong. Okay, then don't you think we should be investing this mental energy that right now?
01:12:59
We're wasting on worrying about this guy shouldn't we be investing that in sharpening our response maybe memorizing some of the passages in Isaiah that are relevant or memorizing passages in regards to confession of faith in Christ that are relevant to the issue and being concerned about where this is going and giving the answer for that then we are about the
01:13:19
Individuals who are who are promoting it? I mean, you know RC Sproul Directly said
01:13:25
I believe on the Ankerberg show that he does not believe Clark Pinnock's a believer well, okay, but I would rather focus upon the specifics of what's being taught and Why it's important to address it and to refute it
01:13:40
Then to worry about as soon as you start bringing in the personality level people's emotions get kicked in and that's it
01:13:46
They you know, they they head out Head out of town at that point As long as it does nothing to do with You know, there are a lot of evangelical
01:14:02
Christians around today that are professing to Have heard the voice of God Believe that God is speaking to them and they have a message from God, etc
01:14:10
Mm -hmm, even those within the evangelical circles such as Southern Baptist and so forth Do you think that that is an infringement upon soul scripture?
01:14:19
Oh, yeah, it certainly is and if I ever get around to writing my soul scripture a book which is supposed to be
01:14:25
You know coming up on the docket here fairly soon. That's one of the issues. I am going to address is the fact that individuals
01:14:32
Who use that kind of terminology and are encouraged by their tradition to use that kind of terminology need to be more specific in what?
01:14:38
They're saying because it fundamentally they are undercutting the finality of God's Revelation by not
01:14:46
Differentiating between thus saith the Lord in Isaiah and thus saith the
01:14:51
Lord on TBN Those are not the same thing and to say they're the same thing is to in essence because we all know
01:14:59
We have all heard people say thus saith the Lord and it wasn't the Lord and it didn't in any way shape or form come from the
01:15:08
Lord that to Take that perspective Undercuts the authority of that which did come from the
01:15:15
Lord in Scripture. And so yes, it is it is definitely detrimental to soul scripture, it's not consistent with it and Those that engage in that kind of terminology need to be a challenge to think through what they're saying about it
01:15:29
But let's face it the vast majority of folks in evangelical churches Probably have not heard of the phrase soul scripture in the first place
01:15:38
So what would you say to someone who said says the Spirit led me well, you know,
01:15:45
I'm not going to Limit the Holy Spirit of God. He can certainly enlighten our hearts and minds but the the differences between saying the
01:15:53
Spirit revealed to me in the sense of revelation and the Spirit Illuminated my understanding of the
01:15:59
Word of God. I believe that the the Spirit of God utilizes the Word of God as the normative means of guiding his people today and That's that becomes the the fundamental issue at that particular point in time.
01:16:12
Okay. Okay. Great. Is there any way I could talk to dr. Smith? Dr. Escapito Actually, dr.
01:16:18
Smith and dr. Pierce are manning the phones today. So I'm sure they can put you on hold and and you can speak to Them.
01:16:25
Thank you. Mr. Unicol. Dr. Unicol for calling today Let's try to sneak in one more call really quickly here because this guy likes talk forever.
01:16:33
I'm sorry Did that go on the air? I didn't mean to say that. Hi Randy I It's a little what
01:16:43
Excessive yes, it's loquacious even. Yeah. Well very much. So hey, I'm going to ETS. I'll even Tuesday.
01:16:49
I'm sorry. Yeah Well, hey, it'll be fun. My brother's up there So why don't you go back by the evangelical press booth and say hi to Mike Renahan for me
01:16:57
Mike Renahan? Yeah, okay That's uh, that's dr. Renahan's brother who?
01:17:04
Heads up the Institute for Reformed Baptist Studies at Westminster in Escondido, I will do that Also, I'm gonna be interviewing
01:17:10
Terrence Teeson on Tuesday night Oh, and I thought if you'd gotten around to reading Providence in Paris if you had any questions, you know
01:17:16
I I don't have any questions for you. I was only able to just glance at it really quickly Trying to get ready for debates and making sure that first and foremost you have
01:17:26
Looked at your opponent's material is what took the vast majority of my time and We don't have those up on.
01:17:35
Yeah, we don't have them on the website. Yeah, they told me maybe maybe Monday So I'm hoping to actually listen to it before I head out if I can grab a
01:17:41
Monday night. Okay. All right Yeah, we Sanders and Pinnock and the whole gang will be up there. Yeah, they will be
01:17:46
I wonder if Sanders will say anything about his experience because It was it was quite the experience, yeah
01:17:53
I'm hoping to catch it then because I'm sure it would be interesting Well, I know you're pressed for time here and you know loquacious as I may be
01:18:02
Develop a reputation where Warren actually said he recognized my voice like it was his mother's. Oh No, that's terrible he actually said that Well, he
01:18:13
I think I heard him say Psalms once to his mom doesn't listen to the show I don't think so. No, I think he gives her tapes once in a while But this is one that he will probably not give her.
01:18:23
Okay. What do you think probably a wise move? Well, I'll be sure to call in with a little report when
01:18:28
I get back. Yeah, I would like to know what not not What's the theme this year evangelical Christianity and other religions?
01:18:35
Oh, so it's dealing with pluralism and stuff You betcha, but of course there are there are some sections on open theism
01:18:41
Also one that I think you didn't find interesting is the largest panel including John Piper Is on the
01:18:47
TN IV? Really? Yes, and so they've got a rather large panel going on that that's going to run for about two and a half hours on On Thursday interesting is
01:18:59
Sanders presenting. Do you know? Sanders is presenting at the conference as is Boyd as his panic
01:19:04
No, they don't have any plenary sessions this time, but they do they do have sessions and It's just it's just amazing to me in light of What took place in the debates and and when
01:19:18
I would press for Specifics on exegesis. It was so clear that their perspective in essence is look you start with certain
01:19:28
Presuppositions that determines the meaning you assign to passages. I mean that really is how they view the scriptures yeah, and I really don't believe that that was what the the
01:19:42
Founding fathers shall we say VTS? Understood when they wrote that confession of faith. I just I just don't know.
01:19:49
I think it's gone far from that Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well all those things do eventually. Yes, it will be it will be interesting to see we've got
01:19:56
Boyd followed by William Craig and the Evangelical philosophical society conference.
01:20:03
Oh my That should be an interesting Well, look forward to your report sir.
01:20:09
Yes, it should be it should be fascinating I'll call you probably then to the following Saturday if my schedule allows it.
01:20:14
All right, man. Okay. Thanks a lot. God bless Bye. Well, that'll do it for the dividing line today. Thank you very much for joining us
01:20:21
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