How Can Man have Peace without God?

Well, good evening and welcome everyone to this event that we've arranged.

It's a debate, it's a dialogue scheduled with Dr. James White and Mr. Abdullah Kunda.

My name is Michael Pratigalladad and as pastor of Stanmore Baptist Church I warmly welcome you to this evening's event.

I'd like to especially welcome any Muslim friends and those from other faith backgrounds.

You're warmly welcome to Stanmore Baptist Church and we trust that this evening will be helpful in your understanding of the theme, how can man have peace with God?

The theme for the debate and dialogue is an important topic and it's something that we seriously need to consider.

Dr. James White will provide a Christian response to this question and Abdullah Kunda will provide a

Muslim response. Now at this point you will notice that Dr.

White is evident before you but due to unforeseen circumstances

Abdullah has agreed to join us via Skype and I trust that he's behind me now on the screen.

Now these men have previously met before in 2011 there was a previous debate on how can

God become man and if you've seen that debate it's a little unique, it's a bit different to other debates you may have seen.

Other debates can be fiery, can be hot tempered, people talking past each other but when these two men have debated before or dialogued before their discussions have been characterised by mutual respect, a genuine desire to understand one another and also clear communication of their position and I trust that that is what will be presented with this evening.

Please join me in welcoming Dr. James White and Abdullah Kunda. Now I just want to do a sound check,

Abdullah can you hear us? Yes I can. Fantastic. It's Dr. Kunda.

That's right but my title doesn't pertain to the setting tonight unlike James' so I'm happy to be incognito.

Well welcome Dr. White and Dr. Kunda. Now to assist the smooth running of the debate,

Reverend David Auld has kindly agreed to moderate this evening. He'll provide us an outline for the format for tonight and will try to keep us on time.

In a moment I'll hand over to him but for those of you who pray please join me in praying for this evening.

Let's pray. Our Father God we thank you for this night.

We thank you for this opportunity to discuss important truths. We pray for our speakers,

Dr. White and Dr. Kunda. We pray for the logistics behind the evening and we ask

Lord that you would lead us into all truth and we ask this in Jesus' name. Amen. Thank you

Michael. Good evening everybody. As Michael has said my name is David Auld. I am the Rector, that's the Senior Minister at Glen Quarry Anglican Church in the southwest of Sydney.

The rules I'm about to set out to you have been agreed by both participants here and I have every expectation that they will keep all of them and I will have very little to do tonight so this may be the only time you ever hear from me.

Let me tell you what's going to happen. We're going to debate the question, peace with God, how is it obtained?

On a coin toss we've decided that Dr. White will go first and both parties will speak as following.

There will be an opening speech of 20 minutes each. Following that there will be a rebuttal period of 12 minutes each.

At that point we will take a break. We will break for 15 minutes for you to take I think what our

American friends would call a comfort break. It also may be that you may want to, as a

Muslim, you may want to at that point say prayers and Stanmore Baptist Church have kindly opened up their church hall next door for you to do at that moment and so I'd invite you to go there at that moment.

We will call you back after 15 minutes. Please help us with that friends. Be back in your seats as soon as you can.

After the break we will take cross -examination and we will have two sets of 10 minutes each for a total of 40 minutes following which we will have 10 minute closing statements from both parties.

After that we will take audience questions. Now here's how audience questions will work. You will have an opportunity during the break to submit your questions in the beautifully appointed question box on the side there.

Either write a question on your own piece of paper or grab a piece of paper and use a pen that's here at the front and pop it in.

We assume there will be far more questions than we can possibly get to tonight so help us out.

Keep your questions relevant to the debate that you're listening to. Tonight is not the night to ask detailed questions on the theology of Mary, for example.

Save it for the actual issues that you're hearing tonight and save it for issues that remain open tonight and I'll be going through those questions and trying to pick the very best to get further information from our speakers.

If the question is dealt with in cross -examination I'll obviously just drop it out. Please don't be offended. Come and find me afterwards if you can.

I'll be the one running away quickly. Now one last thing. I have a timing bell.

These two debaters will not need it, they have assured me, and they don't even need a two minute warning. But should they go over time they will hear this sound.

Which I quite like. How is that for you Abdullah? Great. Fantastic. So if they go over time it means they've been incredibly ill -disciplined and I will not be happy with them.

I'm English, which means I am emotionally stunted. So no matter what I look like, if you hear the sound of that bell you know

I am very, very angry. And hopefully they will as well.

Those are all the rules. We're looking forward to a clean fight, no gouging, no biting, no kicking. Without further ado, friends,

I'll invite Dr. White up to the podium and then they'll just carry on without my invitation, segment by segment, to debate

Peace with God. How is it obtained? It is an honor to be with you this evening.

I am probably going to be speaking a little bit more slowly than I normally do because I want to make sure not only that I am able to communicate to you all here, but especially due to the fact that Abdullah is not able to be with us here this evening.

He's here in electronic spirit, I guess is the way that we could put it.

And so I want to make sure that what I'm saying is clearly communicated. And I'm sure he'll be returning that favor as well because I'm very concerned about understanding accent issues this evening.

I've been asking for interpreters even when I'm talking to people directly. So let's hope that this all works out and works out well this evening.

We chose this subject this evening because I believe it is absolutely vital. Men who are at peace with God then have a foundation to be at peace with one another.

And this world needs the peace that only can come when his creatures are in proper relationship to him.

When we are in proper relationship to God, then we have a foundation for being in proper relationship to one another.

But we have to first establish, is there even a need for peace? Now I don't think that there is really any disagreement between Christians and Muslims as to the fact that there needs to be peace established between man and God.

But the reasons for that and the foundation for that does fundamentally differ. And this needs to be something that we understand.

And hopefully in Abdullah's presentation, he will lay out the Islamic understanding of the issues that I lay out so that we can compare and contrast them in the rebuttal and the cross -examination periods.

But to help you understand, I'm going to focus first and foremost upon what the biblical message is and the understanding that Christianity presents to the world in regards to who

God is, who man is, and why there is enmity, why there is a relationship that needs to be restored between God and man.

We do believe that God made man perfectly, but that man fell.

We do believe, first of all, I believe it's important to emphasize that God has a purpose that he is working out in this world.

This is not a situation where God created the world, and then something went wrong, and God's like, oh, no, what do

I do now? And so everything since then has been sort of trying to fix things that he didn't realize were going to be going wrong in the first place.

I do not believe that that is the biblical message. The biblical message is that God has had a purpose from the beginning, and that purpose is all wrapped up in the glorification of himself.

Not the glorification of man. Man becomes the object of his redemptive work, and man will enter into a very glorious state in Jesus Christ, in the future state, but the gospel and the entire plan of creation is first and foremost about what

God is doing to glorify himself. We as Christians believe the biblical testimony that God exists as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and each of these three divine persons has taken a different role in bringing about the redemption of God's people.

The very origin and source of this work is found in the Father. He is the

Father of mercies. It flows from him. The very love and the mercy that brings about the way of salvation comes from the

Father, and then that way is accomplished in the tremendously perfect work of the

Son, who takes a different role than the Father. It is only the Son who becomes incarnate. It's not the

Father. It's not the Spirit. It is the Son who condescends to enter into his own creation, and Abdullah and I debated this issue, can

God become man in 2011 here in the Sydney area, and I would strongly encourage you to listen to that dialogue and what was said at that time.

And then the Holy Spirit comes, and it's the Holy Spirit that then applies this work that has been accomplished on behalf of God's people to his people.

And so we have the work of the Spirit of God in changing our hearts.

All of this is to the glory of God. All of this is a part of his purpose. But how does this have anything to do with peace?

Well, we need to understand, first of all, that the scriptures tell us that God is absolutely holy.

I direct your attention to the sixth chapter of the book of Isaiah, the prophecy of Isaiah, when Isaiah, one of the most holy men in the nation of Israel, has a vision of God seated upon his throne.

And when he sees God as God truly is, only then can

Isaiah see himself as he truly is. And I believe that's true of us today as well.

Only when we get our eyes off of ourselves, only when we stop comparing ourselves to other people, will we actually see ourselves as God sees us.

And when Isaiah saw God, what was his response? He says, woe to me,

I am disintegrated. I am undone because I am a man of unclean lips and I live amongst a people of unclean lips.

He immediately sensed his own unworthiness to be in this place. And he immediately sensed it, interestingly enough, in the area of speech, and how unclean and how unworthy of God's presence our speech is.

And Jesus taught that how we speak represents our heart. Isaiah recognized his sinfulness in the presence of the holy

God. And he said he was undone. And it's interesting that in that incident, it is God that provides the cleansing.

It is not God that says to Isaiah, well, go do this, this, and this, and then you will be cleansed.

Instead, an angel comes with a fiery coal from the altar, and he provides cleansing of those dirty lips, that area that so expresses the problem of man's rebellion against God.

And so in that incident, we are taught about God's holiness, the fact that he's completely other than we are.

And also the fact that even the holiest man in this world falls short of his great standards.

The Bible tells us that man, man is a sinner. Man has fallen, man is under the wrath of God.

The consistent biblical testimony from beginning to end, you think about what happened in the flood and the comment is made, that when

God's judgment came, every thought of man was evil continually.

Man is constantly trying to find new ways to express his evil. And in fact, when we really listen to all that the scriptures teach us, we realize that God in his grace restrains the evil of man.

For if God did not restrain the evil of man, I don't think any one of us would be able to walk outside the front door of our home, or even be safe inside of our home.

And yet God restrains man's evil. Each one of us,

I think, has to look into our own hearts. And if we're honest with ourselves, if we really recognize, if we really spend some time contemplating, we recognize the darkness of our own hearts, the thoughts that can cross our minds, the things that we have even done.

When we knew what was right and we didn't do what was right, we so often know,

I should do this thing, we don't do it. I should not do this thing, we do it. We engage in high -handed rebellion against our maker and our creator.

Even though we live amongst a people who are doing everything they can to not only suppress the knowledge of God, but to push any knowledge of him away.

So I don't even have to think about God, I just get to do what I want to do. If you're here this evening, you're probably amongst those people who are concerned about being right with God.

And so what I'm saying to you makes sense, and especially amongst Christians and Muslims, we do have a common belief that man has been created by God.

We don't have a common belief about the image of God. You do have the mithaq, you have the fitra, you believe that man is created and that there is that covenant that was made.

And so there is this knowledge that Allah is God and yet there is a rebellion against that.

But from the Christian perspective, we believe that we have a direct relationship with Adam.

He is our representative head. And so that when he fell, we fell in him. We can only receive from him what he can give.

And since he had become a fallen creature, then our nature, derived from him, is likewise fallen and unclean in God's sight.

And that there is no perfect man. There is no man who does good, no, not one.

There is none who seeks after God. This is the scriptural testimony. This is a scriptural witness. And we cannot clean ourselves.

For example, in the book of Isaiah, it asks the question, can a leopard change his spots?

If he can, then the sinner can do good, who is accustomed to doing evil. But a leopard can't do that.

Why? Because it's its nature. It's what makes it a leopard. And so in the same way, can a man do what is good in God's sight?

This is a fundamental difference between us. Because it seems to be, and I will leave it to Abdullah to express his own perspective on this.

It does seem that man is capable of doing what is good in Allah's sight, in at least most understandings of the

Islamic faith that I have encountered. But from the Christian perspective, we are told very clearly that no man is able to do what is pleasing before God unless something happens.

And that is a supernatural work of the Spirit of God based upon grace and mercy intervening in that person's life.

In fact, the biblical testimony about what man is, is that we are a rebel sinner against God.

We are in rebellion. We are at enmity with him. And that's why we need to have peace established.

Now, it's interesting we all share a common understanding of what peace actually is. In the

Hebrew language of the Old Testament, shalom. And of course, Muslims are constantly using salaam, the concept of peace, very closely related there.

But I think we need to understand, well, what is peace? Peace is not merely a ceasefire.

There is no peace in Israel today when everyone is carrying a gun and when the nation is defended by an anti -missile system and there's terrorist acts.

The Jewish people would not describe having the situation they face today as shalom because shalom is not merely an absence of conflict.

It is a wellness of relationship. And so how do we have, as rebel sinners, justly under the wrath of God for our sin?

How can we have peace with God? The Christian answer to that is something that mankind could never have thought up on his own.

No religion had ever come up with this idea that we find in the

Christian faith. There were prophetic announcements all the way back in Genesis chapter 3. You had what's called the protevangelium.

Something about the seed of a woman would bruise the serpent's head. And you had these little pictures through the prophecies, and then even greater light began to grow when you read

Isaiah 53. And there's this one who will come and he will be bruised, but by his stripes we are healed.

And you end up seeing the fulfillment of this in the coming of the beloved Son of God, his entrance into human flesh, and his voluntarily giving his life.

He said, it is necessary that I go to Jerusalem. It is necessary that I be betrayed into the hands of men, that I be scourged, that I be beaten, that I be crucified, and I rise again on the third day.

We believe that Jesus is the God -man, the unique one who, as that God -man, was able to take the sins of his people upon himself, and to voluntarily...

He says, no one takes my life from me. I lay it down of my own accord. And this is why the

Father loves me, because I do this. He voluntarily goes to the cross of Calvary, and there, as only he could, he bears the wrath of God against the sin of his people.

Men from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation, as Revelation chapter 5 tells us.

He bears the wrath that is due to them in himself perfectly.

He has to be the God -man to accomplish this redemptive act.

But he does so. He does so voluntarily. And so the result is this.

No one, from the Christian perspective, receives injustice. No one.

If a person dies outside of Jesus Christ, they will face the just judgment of God, and the wrath of God that is due to their sin, and they will receive justice.

But what about the believer in Jesus Christ? You say, well, they don't get justice.

No, they get mercy. They get grace. But God's law is not left broken in their situation.

You see, God's law has been fulfilled in them as well. God's wrath has been poured out.

Forgiveness has been made available because of the perfection of the substitute.

There is no injustice. God's law is not simply dismissed. And I think it's very important for us to understand the

Christian understanding is that God's holiness cannot simply be dismissed as an irrelevant thing.

The extent to which the Father, Son, and Spirit have gone to bring about redemption demonstrates how important it is that God's holiness be demonstrated.

And if God just simply winks at sin, if God simply forgives sin without that law being satisfied, then how is

His holiness demonstrated? And in fact, I would argue from a biblical perspective that what we see in all of creation is that God, in the end, when it is all wrapped up, what we're going to be able to see is the demonstration of God's holiness,

His wrath, His power, His justice, His mercy,

His longsuffering, His grace, His love. All of it will be demonstrated in what

He has done in this creation. But in none of that do you have a situation where injustice is done to anyone.

No one is forced to do something evil that wanted to do something good.

The reality is, the scriptures teach, that we, as individuals, we cannot do anything good in God's sight.

As soiled human beings, fallen creatures, we are not capable of doing what is good in God's sight.

So how can we add to what Christ has done? I am not presenting to you the idea that Christ makes us savable and then we do this thing and this thing and this thing and sort of slowly obtain our own salvation.

No. When I stand before God at the judgment, I am going to stand before the very same holy

God that when Isaiah stood before Him, He said, woe is me, I am undone. Well, how can

I be any better than Isaiah? And the Christian answer to that is what's called the imputed righteousness of Christ.

A great exchange took place described in 2 Corinthians chapter 5. He made

Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

My sins imputed to Him. His perfect righteousness imputed to me.

You see, Jesus did not sin. He always did what was pleasing in the

Father's sight. Not only did He not commit positive sin and break

God's law, but He loved God perfectly. He loved His neighbor as Himself.

He fulfilled all the commandments, all the things that you and I don't do, He did.

And it is that righteousness and only that righteousness that will ever avail before the holy

God. So I have to ask each one of us this evening. As I'm going to ask Abdullah, I'm asking myself.

But you are here this evening. And you're not just watching our dialogue. I'm afraid because you are a creature of God, you have to be involved in this yourself.

I want to ask each and every one of you, do you have peace with God? If you were to meet your maker this evening, we are in the flight path, by the way, just so you know.

And sometimes things go wrong. And if some terrible, horrible tragedy took place, and while those

A380s decide to land upon this building this evening, and we were all ushered into the presence of God, upon what grounds would you stand before an absolutely holy

God? He does not grade upon a curve. You will not be likened to someone else as a standard.

Well, I did better than that person. No. The standard is God's perfection.

How do you have peace? How do you have peace with God? The Christian response is, when

I rise in the morning, even though I know my own heart, I know my own imperfections, my rebellions, my sin, how can

I have peace with God in light of that? Because I don't stand before God based upon what

I have done. I stand before my God. My relationship with him is based upon what another has done in my place.

The righteousness I have is not a righteousness that I have made. It is a righteousness imputed to me.

It is a perfect, seamless righteousness to which I can add nothing. And therefore, I have true peace with God.

How about you? That is the question that we discuss this evening. Thank you for being here.

Thanks, David. And... Good evening, everyone.

Sorry I cannot be there with you in person. I, uh...

Unfortunately, it was not a flight by plane. But nevertheless,

I'll try to present our view at least remotely as articulately as James did.

And I'll be sure to enunciate as slowly as I possibly can so that James can understand it as well as possible.

We have an ongoing joke, James and I, that the Australian accent is incredibly hard to discern.

That a Southern American accent is in fact the peak of English pronunciation.

So... Okay. I...

Again, thank you all, and James, thank you very much for that opening presentation.

I will refer to Christianity a little bit during my very brief rundown of what salvation in Islam is.

Bear in mind that I'm presenting what is the Sunni version of Islam, and it's even

I guess one particular argument within the corpus of Sunni Islam.

But I won't fall into rebuttal until the time for that is appropriate.

Often salvation in Islam is mistaken as being deeds -based and individually controlled.

It's rather simple. If I pray, if I fast, if I give charity, then

God must admit me to heaven. And anyone that follows this formula gets a guaranteed free ticket in.

That's not actually the case. Salvation in Islam is divinely mediated and exclusively provided for through grace.

A grace which we hope to express through our adherence to a way of life is synonymous with the divine intent.

However, that way of life and those actions have no bearing on our salvation.

As I was saying, often and particularly those that are coming from particular

Christian contexts will contrast the Islamic position by pointing out that our salvation depends on adhering to a code of law.

Salvation in Christianity, on the other hand, is a free gift from God that is articulated perfectly well and serves to glorify him.

Likewise, at this point I would argue is actually correct. Christians will then go on to say that during his or her life a

Muslim has no guarantee of salvation, whereas a Christian perhaps already has that assurance and certainty that they have peace with God.

However, as I said, in Islam, man's effort is not decisive for his salvation at all.

This point is wonderfully identified in a Hadith which is often brought up, funnily enough, as a criticism of the

Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, in which one of his wives Aisha asks him, will you be guaranteed entry to heaven?

And to which he replies, no, not without God's grace. And it's repeated in numerous different chains and representations in Bukhari and Muslim and sometimes it's not the conversation that's with Aisha.

So it's quite clear that this is a foundational teaching, that even the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him do we believe to be the best of created beings in completion, the best of beings after God Almighty is still entirely dependent upon God's grace for salvation.

I think that the significance of this is a wonderful, forceful and effective argument,

I think just as much as that is for Christians for our dependence our complete dependence and reliance upon God for our salvation.

In addition to this, important to note and again

I'm kind of coming at it I guess from the angle of what we don't believe but it's important to note that Muslims do not actually believe that man is responsible for creating his own actions.

So if I were to pick up a book, write something with a pen etc.

It is not any power of mine that's actually making these actions happen.

God is creating the actions and I'm simply acquiring through my intention.

So if indeed my actions are essential for my salvation well then

I have absolutely no control over them whatsoever because it's actually

God who is creating these actions. The principle here is to fit for divine support divine will given from God.

Now this is the wonderful initial step into that we believe is the critical foundation of having peace with God and that is to establish a proper relationship with him.

The foundation of which is acquisition of faith and then the subsequent exposition of good qualities that that faith.

So to simplify in Islam man and woman are saved by two ways of divine grace.

That is the initial one where we are actually guided to faith where we are guided to Islam and the second where any particular shortcomings that we may have misjudgments sins etc are forgiven by God.

Not in the simple sense of it merely being a wink but discuss that more appropriately in the rebuttal period.

Now the next question that someone may ask is then what is the point of Islamic law?

What's the point of the Sharia if it's just about having this faith based relationship with God?

As I have said simply the faith based relationship is the precursor, the necessary precursor to doing good actions with an appropriate intent.

Let me give an example that hopefully will not offend anyone in the room. I may assist a beautiful young woman in crossing the road.

Now I can do that for multiple reasons. I can do it because God has commanded me to help people.

I'm in a position to be able to help them. I can do it because I want to impress the young woman.

I can then have various less savoury intentions emanating from that.

Now obviously outwardly the action appears to be the same but the intention in fact is what justifies and validates the action as being good or bad.

This is precisely what we're talking about when we say that having faith first is the precursor to good actions genuinely being good.

Moving on from there the next question would be isn't it unfair that God gives faith to people as he wills?

There's no way to force his hand. That's ultimately up to you.

I don't think so. God can choose to do whatever he likes with his creation.

This is one of the foundational beliefs of our religion and ultimately it is connected in some way to the problem of evil in that there ultimately is no answer to the question.

There's speculation but there is no clear answer to the question why does

God choose to allow x, y, z why does God choose to favour this person or that person and not prevent bad things from happening and not choose to save others.

I for example cannot explain and it's one of the challenges for me of faith why a person who

I have extreme respect for and I'll say love as well in James has not at this stage as far as I can tell been chosen to be saved.

I can't explain it. I don't know why because outwardly

I think that James is an exemplary individual one who

I would consider certainly be worthy of salvation. These mysteries of faith ultimately are perhaps one element that unites us in this particular discussion.

However we don't completely remove the individual choice equation because we certainly don't have the notion that human beings are foundationally and necessarily incapable of making good choices.

We in fact affirm that human beings are necessarily capable of making good choices.

The question of where the individual's choice comes into the element of faith is that we say that the individual must want to be guided sincerely first as a foundation.

Now I'm sure that everybody sitting in the room now who hasn't chosen faith intentionally wants to be guided sincerely and again we come back to the question of uncertainty.

I don't know why God has not chosen to give you guidance to Islam.

I can't answer that question. Islam doesn't actually offer an answer to that question.

It's one of as I said the mysteries that we are compelled to leave to God and trust

His judgment. To illustrate just how critical trust in His judgment is for us.

We have even had theologians, multiple theologians throughout our history argue a very similar line of argument.

That is if God were to after the day of judgment place sinners into heaven and the righteous in hell we would have no recourse to question

Him. But ultimately that would be within His third world power. However our sincere belief, hope is that He has given us a promise that He will not do that and so therefore that's what we adhere to.

What I want to summarize from what I've said so far is that in terms of answering the question

I certainly argue, certainly believe that I will be going to heaven from where I am right now if a plane were to crash on me.

No I can't. I cannot say that I certainly believe.

What I can answer is that God has guided me to His hand which is

His indication of granting me a favor and He has promised me that by virtue of my guidance to His hand that I will then be granted paradise and I am compelled to keep hope in that promise and that's about the scope of it.

The problem that we have with universal promise salvation is twofold.

First of all it implies that God is compelled to act in a particular way.

Secondly it really narrows the scope or potentiality for salvation.

Now like I said I don't know why God hasn't chosen to guide James to Islam.

Well I can add to that however that there is the potentiality that James would be admitted into heaven despite never becoming a

Muslim, despite in fact arguing against Islam as he does.

Now again there are different views within orthodoxy on precisely what is the case for non -Muslims however there are multiple verses in the

Quran which attest to the potentiality of believing Christians Jews and others that is those that believe in God and as a subsequent come to good deeds being awarded the same paradise that Muslims will be.

As for the issue with our ability to approach God do we require a mediator in the sense of a person we don't believe so we think that it is critical that a person approaches

God as sincerely as they can and that different people have different capabilities for intellectually, spiritually emotionally grappling with this just like different people have different capabilities when it comes to schooling, work etc.

I for example would not make a very good quarterback for the New England Patriots based on my size and my incredibly horrible ability to throw a ball however

I'm not being judged by God based on my ability I get judged by God based on my ability so the critical thing that everyone who is of sound intellect can and must do first is simply turn to God in sincerity and ask him for guidance and forgiveness we believe that that is the beginning and effectively the end of what we must do in order to be able to approach him beyond that it is then up to him as to how much grace he chooses to bestow upon us and as I said while the outcome of that is no promise it is immensely hopeful it is immensely powerful

I believe in that we present the positive message that by default a person is capable of making that first positive step we present the powerful message that God is so close to us that he is willing for us to approach him despite all of our imperfections directly that he is so loving and so open to us that he will allow us to do that he condescends in that way to allow us to do that and thirdly the responsibility that it applies to the individual not simply to remain spiritually guided but to ensure that their spirituality emanates in a practical way that faith is essentially intertwined with good deeds and we can discuss later on what some of these deeds specifically are is a wonderfully empowering message for a person do we offer certainty what in terms of salvation in the hereafter but what we do offer is a message that ensures the maximal peace between two human beings and the maximal between divine created thank you very much and I look forward to James' rebuttal now before I begin

I think the suggestion has been made we had to do this once when

Abdullah has a number of times joined my seminary classes as I have taught in the

United States via Skype and in one of those instances we had to cut the video feeds so that there would be more bandwidth we're getting a little feedback here but more bandwidth for the audio and there are a number of times there where the audio was difficult to follow it was cutting out so we have now seen that on the level of good looks

Abdullah has beaten me badly in this debate so that part is okay we can just leave that aside and I don't know if we need to disconnect and reconnect what oh it's cutting he is now losing the good looks debate sorry

Abdullah the headphones just don't go with it we'll try that because I know that a lot of my questions are going to be did you say this because I was struggling so I apologize so let me start my time we were communicating in another way here we go 12 minutes now one of the questions that always comes up especially in a dialogue with Abdullah who is a

Sunni Muslim is the role of Hadith in the interpretation of the Quran in understanding the

Islamic position so that we can have a meaningful dialogue back and forth and so I'm going to ask if at all possible to I'm going to mention a couple of Hadith and maybe in Abdullah's rebuttal time he can let us know whether he believes that these are normative these have been normative in other conversations that I have had with Sunni Muslims I'm still getting a good bit of feedback up here that if we could back that off just a little bit that would be helpful to me that would be helpful in my understanding of exactly how

Abdullah is understanding his presentation and what I'm saying in response to it but let me first before I narrate them point out a couple of things that I hope we can begin to focus upon Abdullah has said that this is a grace based thing that faith is a precursor to doing any of these good deeds that there needs to be guidance from God we don't know why

God gives certain people guidance and light and not other people guidance and light but I would like to dig a little bit deeper and ask the question especially in regards to the issue of peace what is the basis upon which peace is established in Islam I think

I've explained that the basis within Christianity is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and so there is this equity there is justice that is done

God's law is fulfilled his wrath is fulfilled there is no disjunction between God's character and God's law it is not left unfulfilled and yet there is a hadith that is very common amongst

Muslims it is the hadith of the man in some versions it is a Jewish man who has killed 99 people and he goes to a priest and asks if God would accept his repentance and the priest says no and so he kills the priest so now he has killed 100 people and so he goes to a scholar and he asks the scholar will

God accept my repentance and the scholar says go to such and such a city such and such a village and the people there are particularly holy and they will give you guidance as to how your repentance can be accepted by God as the man was going the time for his death came and so he drops dead and an angel from hellfire an angel from paradise come and they argue over his soul and you would think that the angel from the hellfire has pretty much the easiest argument here but the angel from paradise makes the argument well he was going to find out about repentance and so Allah decrees that if he is one cubit closer to the city he was going to than the city he was coming from that he will go to paradise and then in many versions of the story he makes the earth shrink between the man and that city so he is one cubit closer so he goes to paradise now this was this was quoted as an example of Allah's mercy and grace in a dialogue that I had with the imam of one of the largest congregations one of the largest mosques in New York City and he is the one who brought this up as an illustration of this now this to me illustrates one of the fundamental differences between us because when

I hear that story what is left unresolved is the fact that this man is a mass murderer and God's law and God's justice demands that those lives and the breaking of that law be dealt with and simply making the ground shrink and saying

I'm just going to let this person into paradise is not fulfilling that law that law that you shall not take another life is left broken there has been no atonement there has been no reconciliation in that situation there is another hadith that I want to raise to add to our conversation to see if I can understand where Abdullah is coming from that again

I think speaks to this purpose and the issue of peace and that is a very commonly cited hadith where it is said that there are people who do the deeds of the people of the fire their entire lives until they're a hand's breadth away from entering in and then what is written of them overcomes them and they enter into paradise and then there are people who do the deeds of the people of paradise their entire lives until they're a hand's breadth away from entering in and then what is written for them overcomes them and they enter into the hellfire so in that situation you have individuals who live completely different lives but end up in completely different places because of what was written for them now from a

Christian perspective this is difficult to understand we believe that God has a purpose in the redemption of his people and he doesn't have to redeem his people at the same time in their lives as others

I experienced God's mercy and grace at a very very young age in my life I'm very thankful for that but there are others who experience that much later in life but there is always a purpose that God has in his redemption of his people and that is that they are to be conformed to the image of Christ they are to be made like him and hence are to be sanctified set apart and bring glory to God in the life that they live it seems that in that hadith there is no connection between the glorification of God and the result of what happens in time and what was written for those individuals there doesn't seem to be any connection between the vindication of God's character and the promulgation of his glory or anything like that in the created order in those types of hadith and so the question that comes to me as a

Christian this evening as we talk about this concept of peace I am reminded of the tremendous text in Colossians chapter 1 which after describing

Jesus as the creator of all things whether in heaven and earth visible invisible principalities powers dominions or authorities all things created by him and for him he is before all things and in him all things hold together that's the

Jesus I believe in and let me just make sure if you're here this evening and if you're not a believer in Jesus Christ if you're a

Muslim you believe he's just a prophet I want to emphasize to you the fact that the

Jesus of the New Testament is not a Jesus that you can be neutral about he claims to be

Lord of all and the biblical teaching is he is your maker and your creator you cannot be neutral to those claims you may reject them but do so knowingly that the

Jesus of the New Testament is not like the long haired white guy carrying the lamb around that you see in a lot of pictures unfortunately in our society he is king of kings and lord of lords he rules the nations with a rod of iron and he will be a just judge because he himself has entered into the human flesh and he is the one that we would want to be judged because he has been tempted in all ways even as we were yet without sin and so this is the

Jesus that we believe in and that same text in Colossians chapter 1 says that Jesus made peace through the blood of his cross now we don't have time this evening unfortunately to enter into an important debate and that is the fact that there is no cross in Islamic theology due to surah 4157 the denial of the crucifixion of Jesus but historically biblically the reality of the crucifixion is one of the most firmly established realities of history it is central to the injeel by which we are told to judge in surah 547 and so having made peace through the blood of his cross this is the very purpose for which

Jesus came this is the very purpose that the father son and holy spirit had in eternity past he did not make peace merely a possibility but according to the book of Hebrews when he entered into the heavenly places he had obtained eternal redemption not hypothetically but in reality and so the

Christian says peace how is peace obtained with God peace is obtained with God first and foremost in one way and one way only because think of it folks if Jesus truly is the second person of the trinity has eternally existed as God the creator if he enters into human flesh to give himself as a sacrifice for sins can you imagine the hubris of any human being that would say well you appreciate that God but we'd like to have a different way no

God has the right to say this is the way this is the one way that I have provided and he's done so in Jesus Christ there is an empty tomb outside of Jerusalem that vindicates the fact that Christ's death was intended to accomplish exactly what it did accomplish and it accomplished peace and so in Romans chapter 5 verse 1 after talking about how it is that we are made right with God how we are justified how

God the father as judge makes the declaration about me as a believer you are right with me how can that happen when

I know my own heart it's through the declaration of justification you are right before me because the laws demands have been fulfilled in the one who gave himself in your place that great exchange and so in Romans 5 1 there the apostle

Paul says these words therefore having been justified by faith we have peace with God through our

Lord Jesus Christ that is why any believer rises in the morning and can bow the knee and give worship and praise to God without fearing that God's wrath is going to break out upon me knowing my own heart knowing my own unworthiness yet the scriptures say that I am invited to come before the very throne of grace unlike Isaiah who sees

God and I'm undone the believer in Christ understanding his position that I stand before God not because of what

I've done but because of what someone else has done on my behalf is bid to come to the throne of grace to approach the holy one that is what it means to have true peace because is that not what the intention of God ultimately was that his redeemed people would have that kind of close intimate fellowship with him and how does it happen it happens only in and through Jesus Christ that really becomes the issue how do we have peace

I hope to hear from Abdullah what the basis of that is especially in light of those

Hadith and how he understands those things thank you very much thank you again

James and I hope that the incredibly unfashionable headphones are helping with the sound at that end how are we to have peace well interestingly enough and it's an oft quoted incredibly misunderstood cliche

Islam effectively means peace now what it actually means is submission but it comes from the

Arabic Salama which means peace and also submission how do we have peace by submitting to the divine intent submitting to the divine will submitting to God in completion so when you ask me how do

I accept that somebody who murdered a hundred people is granted grace and forgiveness

I say that I'm submitting to God and if that's the choice that he makes then so be it submitting to God is not easy it's incredibly difficult and no doubt it is a struggle that is shared by all people of faith not just by Muslims I mean no doubt everybody in the room finds it difficult to understand why

God chooses to give infants and toddlers cancer they only live for a very short amount of time their life is riddled with pain that they barely understand but are able to experience in completion while it is a challenge of faith to ask that question it's not one that I dwell upon that is his will and part of the peace that I acquire internally and then attempt to express externally is submitting to that will coming to a couple of things that you said

I do think we fall into a problem with the Christian message in that in that we almost have to accept that God made a mistake to a certain degree in in the fall of man and what that then in the

Christian argument necessitates about man's nature you argued that using scripture that a leopard can't change its spots that's true in a particular context but as you then went on to illustrate we're talking about necessary attributes is depravity a necessary attribute of humanity that's certainly where we differ and the simple argument that we would give against it is that human beings are capable of recognizing what's good and what's not

James you yourself referred to this and said we know when we should be doing something good but don't if we can know what is good

I get the sense that being totally depraved is incompatible with the knowledge of what is good and then having any guilt associated with not making the choice to adhere to what is good you referred to Genesis 3 in obviously in discussing the fall of man and I have two questions that I would pose about that the first is that and it's well known reading from Genesis 3 17 onwards we know that the ground is cursed because of us that we have to work all of our days in order to be able to survive as human beings by the sweat of our brow and so on we shall eat that women are punished even more so they feel the pangs of childbirth and children are born in pain nobody to my knowledge who is saved by grace is relieved of these burdens so if this is truly a necessary part of our existence and if the solution is acknowledging the sacrifice death and resurrection of the god man in Jesus well then why are they not relieved for people who have acknowledged that we only

I think have to go to Genesis 4 to see the problem with this and know that God asks

Cain why are you angry and why was he angered at Abel being favored over him and he goes on to then obviously punish

Cain for killing Abel at no point is it said that this is because of your depraved nature that you have taken on due to your mother and father's sin so I wonder why would

God ask why is Cain angry if he knows the answer to that question and if it's purely rhetorical for the purpose of illustrating his depraved nature then why is it not then clarified in Genesis 4

I certainly think that these are questions that need to be considered but I think most clearly the scriptural challenge is in Ezekiel chapter 18 where it's stated very very clearly that it's the soul of the sinner that shall die the son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father and the father shall not suffer for the iniquity of the son the righteous of the righteous person will be upon themselves and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon themselves at no point is it said to me that oh and on top of that I have this necessary and inescapable wickedness as a result of a choice that Adam and Eve made in time immemorial

I also I think the other challenge with this issue is that if we're going to say that man by virtue is a sinner by essential nature is a sinner then it really is a pessimistic view about newborn babies it's a horribly pessimistic view and I can't see how we can have greater peace between men if one group sees themselves as no longer necessary sinners but everyone outside of that group as necessary sinners but I'll just skip over a couple of other bits that I wanted to discuss and then answer some more of your questions

James I do think it's important that I illustrate to the audience that yes

I follow the and this is going to be incredibly technical I follow the Hanafi interpretation of a

Hadith that would mean that large amounts of Bukhari and Muslim become interpretive or speculative that doesn't mean that they're by default untrue or anything like that I mean we assume that they're true but that they must be interpreted appropriately in order for the precise meaning to be elicited but as I said

I don't think that any part of what I've illustrated tonight is contradicted by the particular

Hadith that was mentioned as I said it is entirely God's will for who

He grants grace to for who He grants guidance to and it's not up to me to question just like it's not up to me to question why there are natural evils in the world why

He doesn't choose to save everybody from cancer and so on and that again

I believe that the message that we present is far more empowering and far more likely to facilitate peace not only between human beings but also between man and God by adopting that first principle of whatever is

God's will is God's will and it's up to me to try and do good within that and to not question that beyond healthy questioning of faith as I said

I think I've presented some scriptural challenges in the Hebrew Scriptures as to why

I think that there's a problem with man necessarily being a sinner and perhaps in the cross examination we can examine some of the

Christian Scriptures in that regard thank you very much yes we do without any further ado

I'm going to invite Dr. White to come up and begin the cross examination there will be two periods each of ten minutes alright this is going to be a little bit unusual for me because I'm going to be facing away from the screen while trying to talk to Abdullah I'm going to turn one of you into Abdullah and just talk to you and then we'll work it out that way it's probably a bit of you that'll work questions while I have the opportunity here let me see if I understood what you were saying and I was able to hear you much much better in the second portion there and that was very helpful were you saying that from your perspective you do accept the validity of the

Hadith regarding the mass murderer that was forgiven is that something that is you didn't seem to have any problem with that did

I understand you correctly I mean in terms of the general teaching yes

I'm not saying that the text itself is certain but in terms of the general the general implications of it yeah okay and how about the other

Hadith about the people who do the deeds the people of fire and so on so forth would you find that to be something that informs your understanding of this subject or not yeah again

I think the general teaching is okay so you do believe that it has been written concerning someone whether they are going to hellfire or to paradise and yet it could be

Allah's will that they live their entire life in a different way than what they are we were talking here about Qadr and I know we don't have time to really develop all that but but that is a valid understanding within your interpretation yeah absolutely and yeah okay couple things here when you said

God I think you said and again this is in the first part you said faith is a necessary precursor to good actions is that an accurate understanding of your position yes okay so you believe that well could you explain the role of repentance in your understanding of Islamic theology and salvation so the

I mean simply it is the individual recognizing their own folly and at the same time recognizing that God is the only one who can completely forgive them for that now what

I mean by that is that an action or a deed let's say a deed so that I can keep the terminology simple a deed has the physical the material observable element and it's also got the immaterial element to it the intention behind it whether one intends it to be good or you know for their own self satisfying needs or what have you so in being able to I guess quash a bad action let's say for example

I've stolen something from someone to be able to quash that I need to return the stolen item so that's that's dealing with the physical aspect of it but I also need to deal with the intentional the spiritual aspect and only

God can clear that up but likewise only God can give me the opportunity to even fulfill the physical outcome he has to give me the opportunity to return that stolen item does that make sense

I think so I guess this is relating I had a question mark here actually and I guess that's what cross examination actually is supposed to be about is to clarify things were you saying that God is creating all actions that we can only do what we do with divine support was

I understanding were you saying that's your position or was that a position you were responding against no no that's our position so in essence it sounds you know you said repentance is recognizing our own folly is there anything in your understanding of of a person who has not yet repented has not yet believed is there anything in your understanding of a sinner being a rebel to where they understand what is good and right but they have no desire to do it and in fact desire to do the opposite so knowing what's right and wrong and intentionally choosing sin yes well yes

I mean and that's that's exactly our position so I mean our position may sound to some in the audience like predetermination or predeterminism it isn't it's occasionalism it's subtly different the subtle difference is that we choose or we desire the outcomes that are then made manifest by God and God facilitates this because he knows what our intention is what our desires are so in terms of a sinner choosing a sinful action that is their choice and then

God provides the mechanism for them to actualize that choice so by occasionalism then those to whom

God is merciful and gives light and guidance they then can have faith and repentance and can do what is pleasing to Allah but those that Allah does not give light and guidance to then he actually assists them in their in their rebellion and in their continuing sinfulness to their own judgment that's one way of articulating it

I think that it doesn't need to be articulated in the affirmative I mean I would say it's just simply

God not presenting them with guidance God not presenting them with guidance so and if God does not present them with guidance are they not still capable of doing what's right though in and of themselves in terms of the physical outcome so remember

I said we divide a deed into the physical and the intentional and spiritual in terms of the physical good yes anyone can do a physical good you know

I mean we can give examples of mass murderers who may again use the analogy that I gave help a needy person cross a road and that in of itself is a physical good but it can't be a truly good a completely good deed if it doesn't have the sound spiritual element behind it also and I mean if one is not doing an action for the sake of God then it necessarily does not have the component to be a wholly good action it can still have a good outcome but it isn't wholly good in of itself so the spiritual aspect requires guidance from God or if you don't believe that man is actually spiritually dead would you say there's no concept within Islam of what we would call regeneration or being made spiritually alive in a sense of being born again not to that extent but I mean certainly being given guidance receiving

Hidayah is analogous in at least a superficial way

I mean the difference is the starting point so the starting point is for an individual who has not received guidance they are inherently capable of good whereas for an individual that is totally depraved correct me if I'm wrong and I know this isn't me cross examining you but they are inherently incapable of good so I mean because the starting point is different then obviously the extent of the outcome is also different does that make sense?

It does so since we're starting a different point then in regards to the thesis of our discussion this evening what is the what is the need for peace?

In other words, would you describe the normative relationship between an unbeliever and God as one of warfare or just simply a lack of submission?

That's a very good question One struggles with adhering to your former but it's

I guess in essence how about I answer it this way if one is not submitting due to ignorance then that is just simple ignorance it's simple non -submission if one is not submitting intentionally you know they are choosing wrong self -serving actions they're choosing to reject

God then that is the complete extreme I guess of a negative relationship with God but I mean

I would go back to the example that I brought up in the rebuttal if we think of infants or toddlers

I don't think that their separation from God is open warfare it's unintentional it's ignorant and again as I said

I don't think it's starting from a base of total depravity so like I said in my initial presentation ultimately our view is that every individual is judged based on their own starting point and based on their own capacity and obviously therefore there isn't a general answer to that question

Okay you've got your ten minutes Okay thank you very much for that sorry that I waffle a bit in answers so I'm happy for you to do the same not that I find you waffly

I actually find it always beneficial I'd like to ask for clarification first of all on something that you said in your presentation you said that it's not appropriate for God to simply wink away sin can you just expand on that perhaps for a minute?

Yes Yes this is the concept of the need for atonement which

I think is represented very very clearly in the Mosaic Law especially in the

Levitical Holiness Code that there is something called blood guiltiness there is for example a tremendous concern on God's part when murder takes place amongst the people this brings a great stain upon the nation as a whole and there are sacrifices that need to be offered because of this blood guiltiness and all of this points toward the necessary fulfillment from our perspective especially as you look through the book of Hebrews in regards to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ so when we talk about when

I say God simply cannot wink at sin or wink it away very often

I've been told well I can forgive somebody I can just simply say to someone oh hey no problem you're forgiven,

God can do the same thing which makes a parallel between breaking God's holy law and my creaturely comforts or whatever else it might have been and that's what

I was saying is I think in my dialogues in the past has been a fundamental issue in regards to dialogue with Islam because of that Hadith that I mentioned in regards to the man who was forgiven which you just said you would accept as being generally reflective of your position the question that Christians have when they hear that Hadith is on what basis does the man who killed 100 people go into paradise in light of the brokenness of God's law in his situation that to me

I think is really probably central to our discussion this evening that's perhaps the gritty that we need to get to I'll answer that perhaps in a good segue into it will be this next question is your understanding that sin is a created thing

I'm sorry I didn't understand that sorry is is your understanding that sin is something that's created is it created by God or is it is it an uncreated entity that seeing sin

S I N thank you to the translators

I do need a translator do you speak any other languages

Abdullah can we try some German maybe anyway is sin a created thing it is not a substance or a material existence but it is it is a rupture in the relationship between the creature man and God and hence it is an action that man undertakes it is somewhat personified at times in the sense of of sin being something that we fight against in that sense but it's not a material thing that is it is created however it's certainty was a part of God's sovereign decree in light of the fact that the lamb is the lamb slain from the foundation of the earth and things like that so it's not a created substance in that sense but it's it was definitely a part of God's plan

I mean it's not a created substance but we'd agree that it's a created state I guess like youth is a created state you know youth isn't a particular substance it's just a state that we acknowledge as being something that exists in creation and this sort of gets to the

I guess the head of our problem the Islamic problem is that for God to be bound or limited by something that is created and this is

I guess you know funnily enough alluding to the last time we were having a discussion in Sydney for God to be bounded by or bound sorry by a created state of things necessitates a limitation upon him so when somebody asks by what right can

God just forgive the murder of 99 or 100 people I say by divine right he can do whatever he likes and for anyone to want to challenge us theologically on that but be a believer in God in some capacity

I would then say back to them or ask them back well by what right does your God your understanding of God allow children to be given terminal cancer by what right does your

God allow any natural evil to exist in creation and if you don't have a meaningful response to that then the idea that God has to arbitrarily forgive through this exceptionally detailed atonement process human sin but not natural evil

I think is it's really problematic but I would like to go into a different topic if that's okay to seek your clarification on it you seem to be

I really need to respond to that because I think that's the central aspect of our debate because you just indicated two things and you drew a parallel between God forgiving with his law being broken and the presence of natural evil and we can't explain either one and I would

I'm not going to sit here and say that I can plumb all the depths of the mystery of God but I do believe that scripture does reveal that God has a purpose in both of these things in other words

I think this is the central issue between us and I think this is really the central issue of our dialogue this evening in regards to the first issue our objection is not that God is limited by something he has created the objection is that God has said

I am holy my law represents my holiness and I will always act in accordance and consistently with my nature and therefore the idea of forgiving sin without dealing with that sin creates a disruption between God's law which represents his holy being and then his actions and hence would be an inconsistency it's not a limitation it is a if we're even going to describe it as a limitation it's just simply

God saying I will be consistent to my own nature in my dealing with my creatures and that's the only basis upon which they can have any trust that I will be the same tomorrow as I am today and I see a fundamental category difference between that and the existence of sickness for example as a result of the fallen creation because while I may not be able to discern the purpose in the sickness of a particular child and I realize you see this all the time you are a medical doctor this is what you do

I was a hospital chaplain and so I've seen the 16 year olds with aggressive forms of stomach cancer and so on and so forth and I've had to deal with these things and fundamentally from my understanding the

God of the scriptures says that he works all things after the counsel of his will and that the final result is going to be the glorification of his grace now

I can't necessarily in this life see how any particular instance of evil is going to result in that but I can have the promise that God has given me that that is his ultimate purpose but I see a fundamental difference between the existence of evil and God's acting consistently with his nature as revealed in his law does consistency mean the same punishment for the same crime is that what you mean by consistency well by consistency

I would say that the penalty of the law the just penalty of God's law against any particular sin must be exacted yes and so either a person receives that judgment at the end of their lives and that punishment or that is what falls upon the perfect substitute in their place and that's how they have peace with God as an example does

God punish murder in the same way throughout the scriptures consistently well when you say punish murder in the same way is the atonement the same is the process of atonement the same well the law remains the same as to those laws there is times when when

God does not bring judgment to bear upon Israel out of his patience

I'm not sure if that's what you're referring to but our time for that section has run out so and now we hear a nice little song there there we go

I was trying to avoid the ding over there because David enjoys dinging way too much

I'm still moderately happy Dr. White 10 more minutes alright well we're getting this is the conversation that needs to take place okay right now is what we're talking about so I sort of want to continue it even if I'm the one asking the question now let me see if I can forward this by bringing up one of the objections a couple of objections that you brought up to me and maybe we can continue this and this is somewhat breaking the rules but I just want to thank you sir for allowing this conversation to take place it's so rare that this type of thing happens so I want to thank you for it you brought up Genesis 3 and 4 in regards and you basically said well how does this work because the curse is not lifted when people are saved

Christian women have pain in childbirth how does all this how does all this work you do understand that we believe that justice is finally done in its totality at the final judgment in the eternal state that we as believers continue to live in a fallen world our bodies continue to experience the effect of sin and that the redemption of our body is yet a future thing so what was your point of your objection in regards to Genesis 3 and those issues

I didn't really quite follow that yeah fair enough perhaps

I'm being marginally convenient but I mean I guess the critical element of the objection isn't convenient it's actually genuine and it's that while I appreciate that the nuanced position is that justice will be presented completely once the

New Jerusalem comes you know the coming of the New Kingdom I think that ultimately we are putting the cart before the horse when we get to that end of the argument

I think we need to properly establish that original sin is actually something that is scripturally based that the fallen nature of man and if we're going to go so far and I assume that most in the room and I know that you do would that total depravity is also scripturally based my view is that it is not

I think that Genesis 3, Genesis 4 indicate parts of that you know that there is clearly a different direction that the scripture is taking the reference that I made to Ezekiel 18 which is obviously first stated in Deuteronomy is another example 1

John 2 .19 would be another example you know where I would question the idea that as I said that there's this base of total depravity and then therefore we lead to via a method of atonement to a new kingdom and that there's these necessary links and contributors along the way so I mean that's the point that I'm making that I don't think it's scripturally based and that we need to establish that first obviously before we then get to the atonement

Would looking at Cain and Abel and the fact that they were offering sacrifices wouldn't that be part of the context?

Why would they be offering sacrifices if they didn't recognize their own sin? Well I mean that's a that's a good question obviously

Genesis 4 is a rather small chapter it doesn't go into any detail at all referring to Abel's fallen nature or Cain's fallen nature as being a fallen nature it certainly talks about Cain's sin and then interestingly enough you know

I mean his atonement for that sin is remarkably different to what to what the atonement for murder later becomes to be in later sections of the scripture but at no point are we led to believe that Abel is inherently fallen in fact as I said you know and albeit

Genesis 4 is rather small and Abel is killed pretty early on in it but for the portion that he's in it is rather evident to me that you know that Abel is good and that he is doing what

God wants so I can't see how that can be linked to a necessary fallen nature.

In Ezekiel 18 you cited that and felt that it made your point there and yet Ezekiel 18 says then the word of Yahweh came to be saying what do you mean by using this proverb concerning the land of Israel saying the fathers eat the sour grapes but the children's teeth are set on edge as I live declares the

Lord God you are surely not going to use this proverb in Israel anymore. That's the context of the statement in Ezekiel chapter 18 can you understand why

I would interpret that as therefore meaning that the emphasis upon the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son of his mind the soul whose sins will die is a refutation of the use of that proverb that the people of Israel in other words were saying there's no need for us to repent because we're suffering for what our parents did and so they're rejecting

Ezekiel's called repentance because they're saying well this is just simply what happened to our parents we don't have to be concerned about the prophetic message and God is saying no you're the one being called to repent the soul that sins will die is the proverb a part of your understanding of that or why do you make it a broader application in light of the representative principle that is found in the

Mosaic law in the sacrifices the laying out of hands upon the scapegoat things like that again there certainly are those representations in the

Mosaic law but I think that I think that ultimately we're choosing some portions of the text over others now

I'm not going to go to the extent to say that that's arbitrary but ultimately there is a choice in that and that's what needs to be explained and justified and by the way for those of you that don't know

I think it's done very well in this definitely get it if you haven't got it already

I don't get any commission by the way but I mean likewise I'd say well

Deuteronomy 24 16 fathers shall not be put to death for their sons nor sons for their fathers everyone shall be put to death for his own sin it doesn't have a caveat of but hanging over your head the whole time is what

Adam and Eve did and I think that while I accept that your reading and your exegesis is is a fairly argued one

I think that surely you can accept that my response to that and say well there are these other passages that we can look at that seem to indicate a different view is also a fairly reasonable it is a reasonable reading

I'm not you know just sort of quote mining and plucking them out of nowhere wouldn't it be a part of the

Hanafi school of interpretation that when you read the

Quran that the entirety of its message needs to be a guiding principle in your interpretation of the parts yeah absolutely so so when

I read both the old so when I read the Old Testament and the New Testament which from the

Islamic perspective both well at least the Torah and the Injil however we define those things both are described as being that's all they're sent down they contain light and guidance and I read them in the context that they're having a consistent message and hence harmonize them together aren't we sort of doing the same thing look certainly but I mean the and I'm happy to apply unlike many

I'm happy to apply the principles that I apply to my own text you know to the biblical text and you'll note that I'm not trying to or those in the audience anyway

I know that you know that I don't do this but you'll note that I'm not trying to bring in some secular atheistic arguments against the view certainly that's a method of exegesis that we can follow but I mean ultimately we get to the conclusion that unless there's certainty there is at best preponderance so for example and I alluded to this in my presentation we can argue whether Muslims exclusively have access to heaven or whether it's more perennial now

I myself I'm not a perennialist you know so don't let anyone be mistaken from my first presentation my wife told me in the break that I came across as a bit airy fairy but but we can argue the other view and I think this is the point that I'm getting to with the scriptures the

Hebrew and Christian scriptures I think that I could fairly and reasonably argue a consistent case from beginning to end that is not one of commencing with original sin following a necessary line that leads to the death and resurrection of the

God man in Christ. Okay real quickly since I only have 8 seconds so it's not fair to even ask but did you say in your opening statement that I might make it to paradise?

Well yes as I just said then I mean it's I'll answer going into my time thanks for that Mr Potter I as I just said

I think that it is at least a question that is open to discussion now the view that I hold personally is that it's very hard to argue the perennial line following the principles of exegesis and you know the

Hanafi understanding of abrogation however it is a view that some people argue and quite frankly individuals like yourself make me hope for this view to be correct so yeah that's my answer to the question if you have a follow up question feel free to ask it

I'm happy to concede some time Well it's your turn to ask me questions but if you felt like framing your question as an answer to my asking

Dr White I'm actually going to do something here Abdullah can you hear me? He can't hear me maybe you could just ask this question very briefly what does

Abdullah mean by a perennial line? Can you explain that term because I certainly don't understand it and if I don't

I'm sure that others will not Did you catch that? He's asking you what you mean by a perennial line Yeah so the idea that any person who is good whatever that means regardless of their religious background has an opportunity to make it into heaven and that every faith is just a different road to the same truth

I think it's kind of the perennial argument Ok thank you

Abdullah your ten minutes of questions Your ten minutes sir Thank you very much

I guess the next question that I wanted to ask is is it understanding that a

Christian has certainty about their salvation Does a

Christian have certainty about their salvation? The Christian has certainty in the perfection of the savior to bring about their salvation and it is offered to us that we can grow in the grace and knowledge of the

Lord Jesus Christ so that in 1 John chapter 5 we are told these things have been written to you so that you might know that you have eternal life but when you look at what 1

John 5 is talking about it's talking about the rest of the book which was if you observe your life you see love for the brethren a desire to be obedient to the commands of Christ then these are indications to you of your being in Christ so if you're talking about epistemological certainty that modernism would demand

I think that's different than spiritual certainty which comes from the testimony of the Holy Spirit to us and I think sometimes we confuse those two things so yes

I have what we would call is assurance which is different than the outcome of a computer algorithm or something like that because it's spiritually mediated rather than mediated in some other fashion

Are there people that sincerely think that they are of the elect but are not?

Yes and how do we differentiate between them?

How do we differentiate between them? Well in this life very often we cannot differentiate between them there is the text in 1

John 2 which is right before the one that you cited I didn't get a chance to look at what you were referring to there but in 1

John chapter 2 it is told that they went out from us so it might be demonstrated that they are not truly of us or if they had been of us they would have remained with us and so there is the reality of apostasy there is the reality of those who make a false profession and then leave and deny that but then there are others who live a life of religious hypocrisy and yet we are told by Jesus own words that there are going to be people who appear before him and say

Lord Lord did we not do all these things and Jesus' response to them is going to be depart from me for I never knew you which again points to the fact that it's

Jesus' action that determines not something that we do whether we truly have that relationship with God Is it just Jesus' action or is there a separate providential grace that is bestowed from the

Godhead or from one of the persons of the Trinity that opens up an individual to considering accepting the sacrifice of Christ in the first place?

Well actually it's a triune action it's the result of the Father's election the Son's obtaining of that salvation by his perfect work and then the spirit coming and we believe to go back to Ezekiel if you'd like that we have a heart of stone that has to be removed and changed into a heart of flesh and that's a miraculous act of the spirit of God called regeneration where a dead rebel sinner is changed and raised to spiritual life and the reason that I believe and the reason that I repent and believe is because I've been enabled to do so and it's the natural act of the new creation to repent and to believe and so for example

Jesus said he who endures to the end shall be saved and some people are frightened by that but for me that's just simply a description of what true saving faith is true saving faith will endure to the end not because I'm good but because that's the result of God's work within me and so when

I said that's something Jesus does I wasn't trying to distinguish at that point between father, son and spirit

I was just simply saying it's a divine act Do you think that there's a difference between 1

John 2 .19 that you just recited for us and the hadith that you referred to earlier about people leading a sinful life but then becoming one of the elect at the end or people leading a good life but then becoming one of the rejected at the end.

Do you think that there's a significant difference or do you think that they're similar? Well let me read this because that's the text

I just cited. They went out from us but they were not really of us for if they had been of us they would have remained with us but they went out so it would be shown that they are not all of us this is talking specifically in 1

John chapter 2 about the false teachers who are called the antichrists who had been within the fellowship and then they denied who

Christ was the incarnation, the sense he came in the flesh so on and so forth and so they went out from the fellowship to demonstrate that they had never truly been of the fellowship in the first place so yeah

I see a fundamental difference between that and what I understand the hadith to be saying because correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding of that specific hadith is that there are people who truly live a life of goodness, doing good deeds, thinking that their end result is that they're going to be going to paradise and then what is written for them overcomes them and they end up in hell and vice versa and what's missing in my understanding aside from how that works out is that from the

Christian perspective there is a purpose that God is working in his universe there is a decree that he's working out and it has a purpose it has a meaning to it so what

I experience in my life is conforming me to the image of Jesus Christ my sufferings, my even my failings and how

God teaches me through my failings is made to make me more like Jesus I just don't see how that is a part of that hadith how

God's glory for example is revealed in that kind of a concept that is found in that hadith

I see a fundamental difference there perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree

I'll try another passage that may have some similitude Mark 4 17 using the parable of firmly planted trees versus those that don't take root and the father being responsible for whether trees take root or not and then those that don't take root being uprooted and never being able to to take root do you see sorry the point that I'm trying to make here do you think that's comparable

I don't because the parable is actually sometimes called the parable of the sower it's actually the parable of the soils and what is being discussed there is the disciples are being prepared for the reality that when they preach the message of the kingdom when they sow the seed of the gospel there's going to be different kinds of responses there are going to be some people who do not react at all because they're the hard ground and the word just falls upon them and the birds eat it up then you have other kinds of soils where there are sudden responses but they are not lasting responses and then there's the good soil which brings forth fruit

I think the thing you need to notice is that as Jesus said in John chapter 15 a true disciple brings forth fruit and in that parable the only ones that bring forth fruit are the ones that bring forth 30, 60, 100 fold the ones that you're referring to in verse 17 and following never bring forth any fruit so they're not true disciples in the first place they are people who have an instant response but that response is not a long lasting response and there's no actual fruit in it so I wouldn't see a parallel there either because if we handle the parable consistently and exegetically it's not teaching that these were true disciples in the first place well

I guess ultimately that is our view so I should clarify an answer that I gave, you asked me do

I think that people are destined for heaven and then their destiny is changed and they go somewhere else or vice versa, no our view is that every individual goes where their destiny is set, it's fixed those that are going to be saved have been chosen in to use a phrase of yours, eternity past and those that are not going to be saved have also been chosen in eternity past and so while we may see a different physical manifestation in the way that they live say the bulk of their life, the message that's been presented in these ahadith is that who is elect and who is not is already chosen by God and that we cannot judge that so and so is a good person because of this thing that they do and we can't judge that so and so is a bad person because of this thing that they do so I think that that's the point that I'm trying to make it's about recognizing the limitations of human understanding in making these judgments, making these value judgments.

Could I take the last 20 seconds to just respond to that? Would that be alright? Yeah, please do.

I hear what you're saying and I understand what you're saying in regards to God has the right to do with his creatures as he wills it's just that from the

Christian perspective he has demonstrated the consistency of the way he's going to deal with his creatures first and foremost through the incarnation of Jesus Christ so we can see in him who the father is and hence there is a purpose that is being worked out.

It's not just a transcendent God and well I'm going to do this or I'm going to do that and no one can judge me. Yes, God has that right to do that but from our perspective he has said and what

I have chosen to do is to glorify myself having made peace the blood of the cross of Calvary and that then becomes the ground of our of our peace and it's a consistency that all of us can hold on to and it's not limiting

God it's just simply taking him at his word but we are out of our time and I don't want anybody to go ding!

I won't then. Dr. White if you could prepare for your closing statement please. Can I believe it's ten minutes?

Closing statement ten minutes alright. First of all thanks to all of you for being here this evening

I really really wish Abdullah was here this evening with us other than electronically.

Abdullah I brought a book for you. Do you have the Potter's Freedom? Abdullah Can you hear me?

Do you have the Potter's Freedom? No, I don't Okay, I'm just going to have to leave it with David and I'm going to have to task him with somehow getting in touch with you someday to pass it on to you or something like that.

Well I have family in Campbelltown so hopefully David will welcome me on a Sunday telling me not to crash the whole place

There you go. So that's how we'll do it. I wanted you to know that I did bring a book all across the ocean for you and I do want to tell you and I do not say this to embarrass you but you are an absolutely unique individual in my experience

I pray for you often I care for you deeply and I want you to know that to the

Christians in this room will be praying for you as well and I look forward to future encounters that hopefully will not require the use of Skype technology to take place but I do thank you for joining us this evening and making this conversation possible.

Thank you very much sir Let me summarize what we just experienced and let me try to focus our attention.

Our subject is how do we have peace with God? And what you've discovered is that from the

Christian and the Islamic perspective there is a fundamental disconnection in regards to the nature of man as to why it is necessary for us to consider the remedy for sin even when

I asked Abdullah about repentance he said well when we recognize our folly but there's a difference between folly and rebellion there is a difference between high handed sins and sins of ignorance.

I didn't have a chance to continue to go on with a discussion of that but the reality is that the totality of the biblical message is that the heart is deceitful above all else.

Who can understand it? That man is dead in sin those who are according to the flesh according to Romans chapter 8 are not able to do what is pleasing to God and I suggest to you that faith and repentance are things that are pleasing to God so what are we to do?

Well we are dependent upon the grace of God and Abdullah said yes everything that God does in giving light and guidance these are gracious acts that is very true that's exactly how

Roman Catholicism approaches it that there is a necessity of grace but there is a vast difference between grace being necessary and grace being sufficient that was the issue of the reformation and it's also the issue this evening as well.

Because what does that grace actually accomplish? We've been told well a law guides those that he's chosen to save.

Okay but what is the basis upon which he then makes those individuals capable of standing in his holy presence?

What is the basis upon which they have true peace with God? What is even the basis of Abdullah's assurance that a law is going to continue to rightly guide him and take him into his presence?

And the Christian response to this is God has not left us without an assurance but that assurance is not something

I look inwardly for, it's something I look outwardly to and that is

I look to an ascended savior who is seated at the right hand of the father his sacrifice has been accepted, he has entered into the holy place, he has sat down at the right hand of the father not like the old high priest there was no place in the holy place to sit down because the high priest couldn't stay there because he had entered into that place with blood that was not his own

Jesus by his own sacrifice enters into the holy place, he fulfills all those pictures of the old testament law the sacrifices that were there and he has sat down because as he said upon the cross

Tetelestai, it is finished the wrath of God has found its perfect and full fulfillment in him in behalf of his people, his work is done and so if I am then united with him then he is described as that anchor that goes within the veil if I am in him then

I have his life, I have his righteousness and therefore the peace that I have with God is not something that I have to be working on or striving to somehow increase or create, but instead the reason

I do good works the reason I serve Christ is out of love for what he has done for me

I'm not trying to add something to what he has already accomplished I am living in the light of that and hence

I am going to desire to do good to honor and glorify him and I'm going to hate my sin because that's what he bore in my place

I'm not going to want to add to what he bore in my place, so I'm going to hate sin and I'm going to love righteousness all because I want to glorify my savior and therefore the peace that I have the peace is something that is lasting it is lasting because of the perfection of the one who has worked it out, there's a beautiful text in Romans chapter 8 that describes the heavenly scene and it asks the question who will bring a charge against God's elect and the picture is of a law court and it says

God is the one who justifies, he has brought the gavel down and he has said just not guilty, why?

because Jesus Christ is he who died, rather was raised from the dead and he intercedes for us, so I have an intercessor we have a beautiful song that talks about before the throne of God above and it speaks of the one who is there in the presence of God and my name is written upon his hands because he still has the nail prints that he bore in my place another beautiful picture in the book of Revelation is the lamb standing as if slain, all of these tell us that the work is finished, the work is done and therefore

I have peace with God that cannot be taken away from me, it cannot be added to and in the entire process it all goes back to the glorification of God, why?

because he has demonstrated his holiness his justice his power, his wrath, when you look at the cross of Christ, if you do not see the wrath of God there, you're not seeing the entire cross, the wrath of God against sin is there as the black back drop against the glorious brightness of the love of the son that he has shown for us there upon the cross, the love of the father that brought all this about the love of the spirit this is a triune action that takes place and that's why

I truly have peace with my God, if it was something that I had to keep adding to if it was due to my obedience if it was due to, look, folks if it was due to me having to follow after light and guidance that would be given to me,

I have been given so much light and guidance in God's word and yet I still stumble and fall and in fact there are times when knowing what the truth is

I go against it, if that's what was required, no one would ever be saved and I just ask each one of you to look into your own heart, if it was a matter of you following through on obedience to that light and guidance, how many of you would be saved?

How many of you, knowing your own heart, knowing the evil that is there, would willingly be able to publicly testify, oh yes, as long as I just have the way to make it

I'll soldier through, I'm gonna I'll deny myself, I'll not indulge in those secret sins

I'll, how many of us are really gonna be honest and say yes, I'm that kind of a person no, the reality is we know our own hearts and we need a mediator we need one who stands in the presence of the father in our place, we need his righteousness, we need his life we need his spirit and that's the message of the new testament, therefore having been justified by faith, not by anything that I do, not by any actions but justify,

God is the justifier of those who have faith in him, we accept his promise, we do not try to bring anything with us and we see in his word that the foundation of our peace is not the abandonment of God's law it is the fulfillment of God's law, in the final analysis,

God will be justified he will be shown to be holy and righteous because he's honored his law he has fulfilled it in the redemption of God's people and that's why we can have peace with him, that is what

I want all of us to experience thank you very much for being here this evening I'll try to be a bit briefer than the 10 minutes so that we can get into the question and answers a bit faster and hopefully answer one or two more than we otherwise would

I am compelled to likewise start by thanking you James for the opportunity to share a stage with you again, albeit via electronic media it's an immense privilege to be able to do so and I for those that don't know, and I don't want to expose too much of our personal lives, but we remain in regular contact we share personal family stories and concerns,

I've asked James for advice advice on how to be a father, in fact because the first time

James and I met, I was an extremely naive I think 22 year old and since that time

I've come to have two children, my son just turned four anyway, we're not talking about me there are two while I have wonderful rapports with all of my

Christian friends there are two Christian men in particular that I just have such strong rapports with that I actually feel enlightened by the things that they say and I ask them for advice and James is one of them

I heard during the break, because I had the headphones on, that he barely stopped talking to people throughout the 15 minutes so I encourage all of you to swamp him when this finishes tonight and to take as much benefit as you can, because it's been four years between drinks that we've had

James here, so hopefully it's not another four I think as I alluded to in my presentation and my rebuttal the critical difference between the

Islamic message and the Christian message is around the need for a mediator.

I'm going to say up front, we don't believe that we need one we believe that God loves us so much that he accepts us precisely the way that he created us the

Islamic message is a message of hope for those of you that have access to an

English translation of the Qur 'an and I can recommend some during the questions and answers read the second chapter of the

Qur 'an and you will note that there is one statement that is repeated about ten times in the second chapter alone, and that is that those that submit to God, that believe in him one and the last day, and do righteous deeds, they shall have no fear, and nor shall they grieve, for their promise is paradise this is the hope that we have is it certainty?

no it's not but hope is a wonderful starting point and hope is

I believe the critical foundation that we need when we want to consider how is it best that human beings relate to one another is it best that I see everyone on the outside of my particular group as depraved incapable of doing anything good or is it better that I see them as capable of doing good, but not yet reaching the pinnacle of goodness that they can is it better that I hope for God's grace, for salvation through him or is it better as the apostle

Paul wrote in Philippians 2 .12 that instead we work out our salvation with fear and trembling as I said you'll find in chapter 2 of the

Quran repeated again and again if you believe in God and do righteous deeds whether you're a

Jew or a Christian or a Muslim it in fact says in even one of these statements, you need not fear and you need not grieve for you have your

Lord's promise of salvation a message of hope at this point in time is critical it doesn't, that doesn't however make it right, but certainly what we need at the moment is a message of hope and I believe that that in of itself illustrates why there is far more veracity in the

Islamic message than there is in the Christian one I'd like to thank all of you tonight for your attendance,

I look forward to the questions and answers and the thing that I encourage more than anything out of tonight is that, and I assume that there are

Muslims there because I heard that there have been people being told where they can go and pray,

Christians Muslims and otherwise have a chat have a chat on the way out have a chat later on via email, you know, literally the

Pacific Ocean is not a barrier between forming sound interfaith relationships, as you have

I hope just witnessed and in this current time, regardless of who has the message that you believe in that I think is the first step that we should all take, thank you very much

Thank you friends, now in a moment we're going to take questions before we do that I'm going to call

Dr. White to the lectern with me and we're going to get our photographer to take the only possible way of taking all three of us in one photograph,

Abdullah you can't see us but would you look down the camera and smile like you're enjoying yourself I'm taking the headphones off and we're going to smile and we got it, alright, thank you

Abdullah Friends, I'm conscious that it's already 10 o 'clock but I also know you want more,

I'm trying to draw a balance between the two, I have you've probably noticed got a very large pile on one corner of my desk of questions that I've slowly been whittling away as they get answered during the

Q &A, what I'm going to do with your permission is ask four questions the first and the last question

I'm going to ask of both, because they're directed at both, the first is a question I've been given directly, the last question is one that I've put together from a couple of questions in order to succinctly summarise them, in between I've got one question for Dr.

White and one question for Dr. Kunde, when I ask each them both, we'll give them both equal time, when

I ask them individually, I'll get the person responding to the question to give an answer and I'll invite the other person if they want to add something, to say something as well, does that work for you all?

And then we'll get you out in plenty of time before midnight and glass slippers get lost and pumpkins start popping up everywhere, so friends the first question for both and again we'll ask

Dr. White to answer first is this, simply this can we have peace with God without obedience to his will?

So for both of them Dr. White first, can we have peace with God without obedience to his will?

In the context of this evening's discussion, the obedience to God's will that gives us peace with God was performed by Jesus Christ by the substitute for God's people, he was absolutely obedient to God's will in every aspect of his life and it is that perfect obedience that is the basis of my peace with God for example the greatest commandment is love the

Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength no one in this room has ever done that and yet that is the greatest commandment so how can

I have peace with God if I've broken the greatest commandment and cannot fulfill it Christ did in my place now on a practical experiential level of how

I live in the presence of God, how I live as a believer, I want to be obedient to his will so that I can express my love for him and that is the nature of my new created nature that is brought about by the work of the

Holy Spirit within me but that is not adding to my relationship with God in the sense of adding to the ground so that I have a greater ground if I've done these things than if I only just trusted in Jesus our position in God's sight our position before him, that judge who says just, what's the basis upon you bringing that gavel down it's the work of Christ once I have experienced that then it is his purpose for me to live like Jesus, to show his life to others and therefore

I'm going to live in such a way as to submit to the will of God as the desire of my heart. Thank you

Abdullah, your answer to that question, can we have peace with God without obedience to his will again

I would think that both presentations would have made clear tonight that that's something that we agree on, that no, you can't and so whether you are substituting that in the sense that James just articulated in the

Christian view or whether it's in our sense and that is that you are submitting to God in the best way that you can, the best way that you are capable with the capabilities that he has given you you must submit to his will in order to have peace with him and we can look at this in a really simple emotional sense

I mean, using the, I repeated again and again the example of say seeing children suffering this is emotionally very difficult you know,

I mean for anyone that sees it, it's going to cause significant anxiety depression and so on the only way to really attain emotional peace with that is to believe and accept that it is part of his will and submit to that not constantly question, not you know, not challenge,

I mean by not submitting to his will by choice, you are choosing opposition and opposition by nature is never going to be peaceful Second question is directed to Dr.

White. Dr. White, you mentioned in your opening speech and then later on again that Jesus is the

God man who accomplishes redemption and that there can be no neutral stance upon his divinity.

In Matthew 24 Jesus seems ignorant towards something, specifically the timing of his return

How do you expect a Muslim to accept his divinity as he obviously denies omniscience, which is a quality of God Well, I would expect them to look at what the

New Testament teaches and recognize that Jesus is described as Yahweh He is described as God He is called

God in Titus 2 .13 2 Peter 1 .1, John 1 .1 John 20 .28, etc. etc. And therefore, if we are going to take all that the

New Testament teaches as a whole we're going to look at one statement where Jesus, interestingly enough says in talking about the day and the hour no one knows, he places himself above human beings he places himself above angels and next only to the

Father when he says, neither the Son nor the Father only. You don't actually, I wouldn't imagine, believe that Jesus could have ever actually said those words described himself as the

Son of God, made himself higher than the angels. The reality is that what's being stated there is, there were certain of Jesus' divine attributes that were veiled during his incarnation.

Jesus did not glow in the dark when he walked the streets of Jerusalem yet on the

Mount of Transfiguration when he was seen in his glory he did in fact shine with a divine light and so there were certain aspects of Jesus' divine nature that are veiled during the incarnation so he can accomplish his purpose as the

Messiah and bring about redemption. The reality is that Jesus did have supernatural knowledge, but that's one aspect that during his ministry is veiled.

That doesn't mean that before when he was in the presence of the Father, glorious for all of eternity,

John 17, 5, that he did not have access to that information. Just during that period of time, during the incarnation, that he did not.

So can I just add a bit to that? I'm actually going to come to James' defense because this is an oft repeated question from the

Muslim side. I don't think that it's necessarily a bad question, but it just comes from an uninformed place and kind of becomes superfluous.

For the person that asked the question, I encourage you to get a copy of this book of James'. He can tell you all about it.

But don't stop there. Then take a look at our dialogue that we had five years ago.

Five years, gee. And you'll see I guess a Muslim response to 300 pages in 40 minutes.

And you'll get I guess a better appreciation of what it is that we're talking about when we say these things.

Likewise, I'd say to James that incidentally, no Muslim would have any problem with Jesus putting himself above angels because the human prophets are above the angels anyway.

So yeah, that wouldn't be an issue. Thank you.

Question for Abdullah. How can a Muslim have peace now if they do not have certainty now?

Yeah. Good question. Now we do have certainty in our faith being the right one.

The wonderful thing about Islam is that it says think question and then you will then you will come to faith or understand and then you'll have faith.

So understand the religion and then you'll have faith. I mean,

I would argue that it's the opposite view in Christianity that one is relying upon the inspiration of the

Holy Spirit first. So having faith first before they can understand. So we have certainty, we have yaqeen that God exists that the

Quran is his revelation and therefore with that certainty we know that he has promised that those who believe in him and follow his divine commands will be promised with paradise.

Now part of the divine command incidentally is acknowledging when I commit a sin or acknowledging when one commits a sin, repenting for that and then attempting to make recompense as best as they can with their own ability.

So while I don't have certainty of receiving access into heaven

I have certainty that God has given me that promise. So I'm very comfortable and as I quote in that oft repeated verse from the

Quran, I have no fear and nor do I grieve about the promise that he has given me and the outcome that I anticipate from that.

as I said I would refer to multiple statements from the

Apostle Paul that seem to indicate that having certainty about one's final destination is not not the message of Christianity either.

I wasn't going to because the question was specifically asked to Abdullah but then he made that last statement and so I had to respond.

I think what's being referred to there is the text in Philippians chapter 2 work out your salvation with fear and trembling this is one of those exercises in reading and context because the rest of the sentence says for it is

God who is at work within you both to will and to do according to his own good pleasure. So the reason that I work out my salvation with fear and trembling is not because I am uncertain of the outcome of the salvation it's because I am amazed at the one who is working his will within me.

That's the contextual reading of that passage. Final question which is as I say my attempt to amalgamate a number of the issues and then direct them to both parties.

Both Dr. White and Dr. Kunde tonight agree on a number of things. There is election in salvation that peace with God comes from forgiveness by God and that God is holy and just.

So Dr. White from the Christian world view in respect of both election that is

God's choice of who is saved and forgiveness that is God not punishing a sinner for their sin how can

God elect and forgive without compromising his eternal unchanging nature as holy and just?

How can he elect and forgive without compromising his eternal unchanging holiness and justice?

God elects and forgives on the basis of the entire work of the triune

God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit that is focused upon the tremendous reality of the incarnation the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The union of that people with him so that he becomes their substitute so that in the final analysis as I've said what you see in the end is not our works and our additions to what

Christ has done but what we see in the end is solely what God has done and purposed from the beginning and accomplished in perfection and what

I think one of the you heard just before Abdullah said where we fundamentally disagree is we don't need a mediator we say we need a mediator and it is only in the giving of that mediator that we can truly know the heart of God and hence know that we have peace with him it is that that gives us the true level of assurance that really is the issue this evening as I see it.

Thank you. Thank you Dr. Kunde the same question to you from the

Islamic world view in respect of both election that is God's choice of who is saved and forgiveness that is

God not punishing a sinner for their sin how can God elect and forgive without compromising his eternal unchanging nature as holy and just this is a very good question and look

I mean ultimately we start from the presupposition like I assume the questioner does that God is by nature absolutely just now what we mean by that is that any action he undertakes is by virtue just so for example he has obviously created human beings with the need of oxygen it would be just for him to not create oxygen so to give us this need but not the means of fulfilling that need whatever he does by virtue of it is just so it's a classic dilemma are things good because the gods decree them or are the gods good because they do these things we split that dilemma down the middle and say that whatever

God does is by virtue good and so therefore if he forgives someone who has committed sins that to me appear to be horrifying it is still just that is his prerogative he's

God I'm not I mean it doesn't matter what I think what judgment

I draw in terms of and I think and this is an important point

I think when we get down to the crux of it because while we certainly disagree on the need for a mediator and that is the critical thing that we disagree on the critical thing that we agree on is that it is up to God who is elect and who is not now for me as a

Muslim I think that once we agree on that point the mechanism by which he elects people becomes moot now

I appreciate that I'm now calling salvation in Christianity moot I'm not trying to offend anyone but if we accept that he can choose who he who is elected and who is not and that that by virtue is just because it's an action by him then the mechanism for that is in of itself irrelevant because it doesn't change the origin or the outcome and I think that that would be the point that I would want everyone to take home who as yet have limited familiarity with Islamic salvation it is whatever choices

God makes are by virtue just it's not up to me to question them we have very elementary understandings human created understandings of justice and applying them to him is is one of the greatest mistakes applying any human similitude to God is one of the greatest mistakes that we could potentially make

I think it leads the door open to questions that make it very very difficult for people of faith to have consistent positions you know the sort of juvenile new atheist challenges that we have like why is the universe so big if it's only about us you know why is human history so long if it only comes down to a 33 year old man who emerged in the common era or a 40 year old man who emerged in the 7th century and so on I think that we are opening ourselves up to these juvenile contests if we don't just affirm directly and strongly that God's justice is absolute and it's not up to me or anyone else to question

Thank you Dr. Kunde Friends I've only got two more things to say to you tonight first of all in a moment

I'm going to hand over to Michael and he will close for us after that a good number of you will want to speak to Dr.

White if you're going to do so here are some instructions for you please help us with this form an orderly line secondly please be aware of two things the time of night and the number of people behind you in the line that will be very very helpful please love

Dr. White and his flight in the morning I know you want to have detailed discussions it is time for a quick selfie and a signing of the book and a shake of the hand

I'm happy to talk to any of you as long as you want but I don't think you want to talk to me secondly we need to give thanks to two particular groups of people first of all at about 5 o 'clock 5 .30

this afternoon the audio visual team were told that circumstances had changed and they have worked incredibly hard not only before the debate but during it to make it happen, incredible job will you thank them for me now applause applause and secondly of course our two debate participants have worked really hard as we knew they would not only to give us a great debate a good one and a helpful one but also to work through the technical difficulties that we had, will you please join me in thanking

Dr. White and of course I'd like you to join me in thanking

David Old for moderating for us this evening if you join me please join me as we close in prayer our

Father and our God we thank you for your kindness to us for enabling this debate for overseeing the technical issues that needed to be managed and we pray that you would help us to consider and think about the things that we have heard

Lord we thank you for Dr. White and we thank you for Dr. Kunde and their clear expressions of both the

Christian and the Muslim faith help us to consider how it is that we can be right with you the true and living and holy

God we pray part us with your blessing watch over us and keep us and this we ask in Jesus name,