October 31, 2022 Show with Dr. James R. White on “Why Reformation Day Is Just as Important in the 21st Century as It Was in the 16th Century”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is

Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Reformation Day on this

Monday, October 31st, 2022. I am thrilled to have the perfect guest for Reformation Day, in my opinion, on today.

His name will not be unfamiliar to the vast majority of our listeners, if not every single one of our listeners.

His name is Dr. James R. White. He's an author of numerous books, a New Testament Greek scholar, highly skilled and seasoned debater, professor of apologetics and church history at Grace Bible Theological Seminary in Conway, Arkansas, one of four pastors at Apologia Church in Mesa, Arizona, host of the

Dividing Line webcast, and co -founder, director, and resident apologist at Alpha and Omega Ministries.

And today, we're going to be addressing why Reformation Day is just as important in the 21st century as it was in the 16th century.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, my dear friend,

Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. Well, I'm assuming, Chris, this means we're not going to continue discussing your former life as an axe murderer?

Well, you know... Are we live on the air now? I always thought those conversations that began off the air would not continue on the air.

But thanks for letting that be public knowledge. Yes, yes, yes.

Well, hey, that's how you used to start everything, so I'm just getting you back in my old age and your old age for all those decades in the past.

Yes. You know, so it's only fair. But happy Reformation Day, and yes,

I do. I'm looking forward to have an opportunity to bring up a few important issues, just watching social media and seeing all those memes of Luther standing there at the castle church and pretending that he actually was doing something that people would notice at the time.

I love debunking all that stuff and getting the truth out, so it's good to be with you. Oh, it's great to have you.

And I just want to let you know that I continue to hear the praise reports of those that were in attendance, both at the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon that was held just last month at the

Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, and also those that were present at the debate that you had with Dr.

Peter Van Cleek on the textus receptus. And I just keep hearing from these folks every week, thanking me for orchestrating those events, giving praise reports of how blessed they were, especially those that were at the

Pastors Luncheon, and heard from you a message that they were not expecting at all.

It wasn't an academic message. It was a message from the heart, and they were very surprised by that, but very thankful for that.

So, in fact, I heard it today, and Pastor Doran Ray of Church of the

Living Christ, well, actually formally of Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, because yesterday was his last

Sunday preaching there, but he wanted me to extend to you his heartfelt greetings and his hopes to get to see you face -to -face again as well.

So you're saying that they were stunned that I have a heart. Is that what you're saying? Well, I think that would include everybody.

That would include everybody. Pretty much. Pretty much. Well, as you, interestingly, were able to detect, what we did at the

Pastors Luncheon really wasn't what I had planned, really. I just sort of followed the

Spirit, shall we say, and did something a little bit different. But, yeah, when you've got a room full of pastors,

I think it's probably best to address issues that pastors themselves would be thinking about, and so we did.

So I'm glad it turned out the way it did. Well, today, as you know, we are talking about why

Reformation Day is just as important in the 21st century as it was in the 16th century, and the reason

I wanted you to discuss this today is because it has always been increasingly alarming to me over the years to meet and encounter and even interview men of God that have been used mightily of God through their writings, through their teaching and preaching, who are thoroughly

Reformed, even confessional, and who will surprise me, sometimes even on the air, causing me or creating the necessity that I do some kind of damage control and give a caveat of my own after they surprise me with statements that are shockingly soft on the

Church of Rome, very ecumenical in nature. And I think that there seems to be amnesia as to why there was a

Reformation to begin with, why countless thousands of Bible -believing

Christians, men, women, and children, were tortured and executed over the differences that they had with the

Church of Rome. And it is as if there are many evangelicals and even

Reformed Christians who say, well, the fact that they're not torturing and killing us anymore is good enough, now we can be friends.

If you could just pick it up where I left off there. Well, when you think about it,

I'm not sure that it's just simply a matter of softness. I just think a lot of people are utterly ignorant of what the issues at the time of the

Reformation were. They don't enter into history very much.

Even the brilliant men who are authors and who have doctors? Yeah, I mean, it's one thing to have read some history.

It's another thing to enter into it. For example, what was the material principle of the

Reformation? Well, you have the material principle and the formal principle. The material principle is justification by faith. That was what was being preached.

That's what changed hearts and minds and really impacted people.

The formal principle was solo scriptura. The Scripture is the sole and valid rule of faith of the Church. Now, when we preach justification by faith today, let's just be honest, it doesn't have the same impact that it did in Luther's day.

And the reason for that is in Luther's day, in many places in Europe, a woman would have to have 10 live births to get one through to maturity.

There is a huge, massive amount of infantile mortality. Almost, well,

I think about every reformer that I know lost a child at some point, both Luther and Calvin did. And so everybody had seen dead bodies.

Everybody in their family had people who had died. And so you dealt with the reality of death, and you recognized your own mortality.

The plague would keep sweeping through, and it wasn't like it was between 1347 and 1351, but it would take people each time it came through, and people would flee the cities.

And just to go to school, just to go to Wittenberg or Leipzig or Heidelberg or any of the larger cities, you were risking your life to go to places like that because of disease and that type of thing.

That changes how you view the doctrine of justification because you may have to stand before God much sooner than you think.

You recognize that you could end up standing before God in a very, very short period of time.

We don't think of our mortality in that way any longer. There are many people who do not see a dead body until they are much more mature in years.

And so as a result, we tend to look back at those days and we plug it into where we are today, and some of the passion that existed at that time just doesn't translate through to us today.

And so when we talk about these issues being life and death issues, it's difficult for us to really plug that in in our modern context because we insulate ourselves from death.

Every one of us today lives like kings and queens in comparison to people in those days.

We have indoor plumbing, for crying out loud. We have refrigerators. We have things called grocery stores.

We don't have to go down to a market and buy a chicken and chop its head off and pluck its feathers off and do everything else like that.

You just go and buy chicken breast at Albertsons or something.

So we have it so much easier, and that may be ending very quickly, but right now we have it so much easier that the issues just seem so far away for us, and they become academic.

It's like, yeah, you know, Luther, he was a little bit too hot -headed on his side, and Johann Eck was too hot -headed on his side, and we've just learned to sort of get along a little better.

And, you know, sure, they're still important and all, but we just dismiss it in that way.

And so it's not so much, I think, ignorance as it is just not having the same context that they did back then.

And the reality is we're the ones that aren't thinking things through because every time you get in a vehicle, you're walking right next to heaven's door because some guy could have a heart attack and pass out at the wheel of a truck and come through a red light and take you out in an instant, and everybody knows that.

If you talk with someone, they'll go, well, yeah, I've seen it happen, okay, yeah. But we don't live with the reality that that could happen.

And so I think that's why we have such a different perspective of things today.

You know, justification by faith thrilled people because you can know you have peace with God.

Now, over against the cultural, you're going to die, and you're not even certain that you're going to make it to purgatory, and if you're in purgatory, you're going to be suffering horribly, and people back on earth need to have masses said for you and buy indulgences for you, and that's just even assuming you make it to purgatory.

You might not make it at all and be cast in the flames of hell, and there's no way really for you to know without being presumptuous.

When your children or your wife or your parents have just freshly died, those are questions that are not just academic.

They're real. They're life. They're everything. And so, yeah, we're in a little bit of a different context today, but they were the ones that were actually thinking through the important stuff, not us.

We just distract ourselves. So, yeah, I think it's still important today.

That's one of the reasons that it remains so today, and you're right. Today, there is a bent toward an ecumenical attitude.

I don't know if you've heard me talk about it, but for quite some time, at least for 20 years or more, 22 years or more,

I've regularly spoken about the fact that as we are pushed into a smaller and smaller social space and pushed out of so much of our society, education and all sorts of careers that just simply are not going to be open for Christians in the future unless the

Lord does something in our culture, that means we're getting pressed closer and closer together with Roman Catholics and with Mormons and with Eastern Orthodox, and we don't know a lot about what those people believe.

We just thought that they were wrong, but we really weren't sure why, and now all of a sudden we have to start talking, and we discover real quick what we really think is definitional and what isn't.

And I'm afraid that a lot of Protestants are Protestants of convenience, taste, comfort, tradition, rather than Protestants of conviction, and a

Protestant of taste is going to be very taken aback when they have a conversation with a

Roman Catholic of conviction because they don't know what the issues really are, don't really have a means of defending their position.

And we see, you know, the result is conversions of people and all sorts of stuff like that.

And of course there are your really super soft, squishy Roman Catholics. I mean, you know,

I just recently commented after seeing about the 100th tweet from Joe Biden about how if you just give him two more senators and keep the house, that he'll codify

Roe v. Wade in January of 2023. And I'm just like, excuse me, isn't this guy a practicing

Roman Catholic? Isn't that what he calls himself? And yet nothing will be done.

Or Nancy Pelosi goes to Rome and the Pope gives her the sacrament, even though her bishop had precluded her from doing that back in San Francisco and just cuts the guy off the knees.

So you've got that kind of Roman Catholicism that doesn't really have much in the way of beliefs any longer anyways.

And hey, I don't know if you've discussed it on the program, I think it's sort of relevant to Reformation Day, but just over the past couple of weeks,

Francis has appointed two pro -choice women to the

Vatican's Life Council for five -year terms. And it's simply a scandal that he's done so, but it tells you a lot about where he's really coming from.

And that starts telling you a lot about how, quote -unquote, tradition can change rather quickly when you have a system like Roman Catholicism.

It's, you know, we sit there and go, hey, wait a minute. You guys say you've been in the church for 2 ,000 years. You can't just go and start changing stuff.

But hey, once you make the pope the final authority in all things, he sort of gets to do what popes do.

And so it is fascinating to see this developing right now because the

Roman Catholics that you and I dealt with, you know, for example, wouldn't you love to find out what

Father Peter Stravinskas thinks of the current pope? Oh, yeah. In fact, I've wanted for years to have you debate a

Roman Catholic on the theme, is Pope Francis a faithful and trustworthy shepherd?

I would love to see if anybody takes up the challenge who is not a leftist. Well, what's interesting is

I listened to, there was an online debate. Do you know the name

Peter Diamond? Yes, the name sounds very familiar. Is he from England? Yes. He and his brother have that small

Sedevacantist monastery somewhere up in New England. Oh, okay. And they're the ones that, you know, will freeze frame the dividing line where I'm making some type of hand gesture and go, ah, here, here's a demonic gesture being made by this one type of thing.

Just really weird stuff. But Peter Diamond debated a conservative

Roman Catholic about Francis. And it just blew everybody up because he won.

I mean, it was very, very clear that his arguments against the validity of the current papacy were very, very strong and much stronger than the response given by the other side, even though from a conservative.

And so that debate is taking place internally inside Rome, which makes me just sort of go, the

Roman Catholics that you and I dealt with back then, when I say back then, you know, starting in the mid to late 90s when we started doing the series there on Long Island, you know, their view of the papacy then just simply couldn't even exist today.

There's been so much change in that brief period of time. And so you really wonder what the next pope's going to bring because Francis has filled the

College of Cardinals with his own acolytes, his own followers. And so it's highly unlikely that there's going to be a course correction.

If anything, it might get more radical. So all this really goes back to the fact that we

Protestants have been saying all along, well, you missed the boat because there is no such thing as a papacy anywhere in apostolic

Christianity. That is a development over time. And certainly that was one of the things that Luther came to understand.

But certainly on October 31st, 1517, he hadn't quite gotten to that point yet in any way.

So I suppose we should probably get there. Well, the thing that's...

Are you still there? Yes. Okay, the thing that's interesting about what you just said is that for years we have been hearing

Roman Catholics, especially apologists, regurgitate the line that sola scriptura is a blueprint for anarchy and that we need an infallible papacy to keep the church in line and protect the church from drifting into all kinds of heresies and errors.

And we've heard about the myth of the 30 ,000, 60 ,000, 100 ,000

Protestant denominations. And they would say that anything that a current pope would say that is a modernist idea really has no import into what the

Roman Catholic Church truly stands for. They are defined by the dogma of the church, what has been proclaimed ex cathedra or ex cathedra, depending upon who you're speaking with.

And now, how on earth could they say there's any practical benefit to a so -called infallible papacy with Francis?

It's mind -boggling because the majority of what he says that is made public is definitely steering the church into the sewer of leftism and apostasy.

Even what you just mentioned of his appointments of pro -abortionists. How on earth could they possibly continue, and perhaps they don't, but I haven't heard it in a while since Francis was pope, but how on earth could they claim that we have the blueprint for anarchy and yet their so -called vicar of Christ, he would have certainly been executed in the days of Trent and prior?

Yeah, he definitely would have. And the terminology they're using is that people are being red -pilled.

But what that results in, you know, it's hard to say. Obviously, the Eastern Orthodox are licking their lips going, hey, you know, come on over, the water's fine.

But at the same time, there are those who do everything they can to come up with an excuse, come up with a way around that particular problem.

But the thing is, if they're apologists, there's the problem.

If they're an apologist, how do you call people positively to embrace this system?

And even when I see converts even now, you know, you still see people talking about they're joining the

One True Church, all the rest of this kind of stuff. I'm just like, how do you do this right now in light of Francis and the blatant reality that he does not believe what even his predecessor believed, let alone,

I mean, it's one thing to say, well, he certainly had a line with popes 150 years ago, well, duh. But his predecessor, who's still alive, you can't possibly make the argument that Francis and Ratzinger believed the same things, that they would direct you, that they would answer the same vitally definitional questions in the same way.

No honest person believes that. And it is a tough time to be a

Catholic apologist, which is why, you know, I think it was 2019,

I think it was 2019, at some point I was down in Australia, and Tim Staples was going to be in Australia, in Sydney at the same time, and so we were going to do a debate on Pope Francis.

And they called it off. They decided they didn't want to do it. Not shocked, not at all shocked.

No, no, neither am I. So, you know, it was, it'll be, well, actually,

I just realized, it was, you know, last year was when we marked the occasion of the

Diet of Worms, and Luther's statement that he couldn't go against conscience, and he made reference to popes and councils that have often contradicted each other.

So that was a reality then, and I would say it's much more of a reality today, looking at modern

Roman Catholicism, than it even was in Luther's day. So that is one issue that certainly has not changed in its relevance.

But I think most Protestants today just don't take seriously Rome's claims. They don't really understand the claims of the papacy, and they certainly, most

Protestants don't understand the Doctrine of Sola Scriptura, why it's important, why they should believe it, where it came from, or anything else.

And so, anyway, I think it would be helpful if we did at least talk a little bit about what took place today.

I'm not sure when the break's coming up. Just let me know. We have a break coming up right now, actually.

And we do have some surprise guests here with us today to give us a little history lesson in the form of song.

We have Party Hardy Marty Luther and the Protestors. And so Party Hardy Marty Luther and the

Protestors are going to bring us into the commercial break, and we'll be back shortly. But here they are,

Party Hardy Marty Luther and the Protestors. During the 16th century, the

Church of Rome reached its height of power as well as its depth of debauchery, greed, and corruption.

One of the most vile and greedy puppets of the papal throne was a member of the

Dominican Holy Order named Johann Tetzel. Tetzel sold indulgences to the spiritually ignorant and enslaved laity, warning them that this was a necessary means to purchase the souls of their deceased loved ones out from the torments of purgatory.

A limerick became popular in that day's advent when a coin in Tetzel's kaffa rings a soul from purgatory springs.

This abuse of papal power through pilfering the poor, pious, and peasant people did not go unnoticed by a young German Augustinian monk who was once one of Rome's most faithful and loyal subjects.

Outraged by the level of greed and wickedness that the Church sank to, this monk nailed his protest to the practice of indulgence selling to the door of the castle church in Wittenberg, hoping to spark a debate with the intelligentsia of Rome.

The hammer blows as these 95 theses were nailed to the church door were like cannon fire heard round the world and ignited the blaze of a holy inferno that is still burning brightly today.

This holy inferno is the Protestant Reformation. That Augustinian monk who ignited it was me.

Hello, I'm Martin Luther, and this is my story.

Oh yeah, I'm the great reformer. Reforming the churches that I'm known for.

I made my protest before Zwingli and all of the rest.

Nailed it up to the Wittenberg door. Oh yeah,

I'm the great reformer. Reforming the church was my goal.

But the Pope threw me out like some bad sauerkraut.

Flushed me right down his Vatican pole. I would not indulge that dirtbag

Johann Tetzel. So they threatened to twist my spine up just like a pretzel.

Yeah, I'm the great reformer. The Pope put a price on my head.

But while out on the run, I married a nun.

Sure beats living with guys who bake bread. That's very bold guys wearing robes baking bread.

My lady, sweet Katie, gave up her old habit. She once dressed like a penguin, now multiplies like a rabbit.

Yeah, I'm the great reformer. I turned

Tetzel's church upside down. Tell those greaseballs at Trent centuries after they came and went.

I'll be dead, but that won't keep me down. They wanted to slice me and dice me and feed me to the papal palace puppy dogs.

But I'll bet you that in the 21st century that I'm still around.

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Bible, that's what you're going to want to get. Amen. Well, to repeat that website, it's ptlbiblerebinding .com,

ptlbiblerebinding .com. But after we have heard party, hearty Marty and the protesters give a little history lesson, perhaps you can give a little more accurate one on Reformation Day.

And by the way, that always listening to that always brings back such fond and hilarious memories of you and me at the

Tuscarora Conference Center with Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, putting on their youth retreat.

And that's what gave birth to that song was me being given the challenge. We want you to be the comedy relief for James White's teaching at the youth retreat.

And I was terrified. I was anxious because I didn't know what to do.

And then I'm at a Bible conference that you are conducting at the Bible Baptist Church of Sias at Long Island, which just does not exist anymore.

And you were doing it on the whole story of the 95 feces.

And all of a sudden, the light went on in my head. That's it. But anyway, tell us about why we are even celebrating this day today.

Well, I have to say, you know, the first time and I'm not sure because there were two songs. I'm not sure which one you just played.

I wasn't able to hear it. That's right. You don't own me coming up in the second hour.

OK, OK, OK. I just remember that you performed those as part of the talent show.

And I just remember falling off my chair. Everyone just you just talk about slaying an audience.

It looked like a Pentecostal church. After we got done with that one, it was it was it was pretty incredible.

So, yes, I've always thought that, you know, you could go on the road.

But these days, that probably wouldn't be now. You just defend everybody. So back then you could you could get away with it.

But not any not anymore. You can't do comedy without everybody getting angry with you. So but yeah, no, it's great.

And, you know, one of the bucket list things that I've done,

I'm sure you've seen the picture. And in fact, I'm sure you've listened to the sermon. At least I hope so.

I had the opportunity just a month before the 500th anniversary of Reformation.

We were in Germany and Michael Fallon arranged for me to be able to preach in the castle church in Wittenberg.

And he had arranged that for one other person. And that was Dr. Al Mohler.

And Dr. Mohler gave a lecture on Luther. I just felt that it would be appropriate if you're going to be standing in Luther's pulpit with Luther buried at your feet, literally.

I mean, Luther's tomb is right underneath that pulpit. You can if you if I sort of leaned over it far enough,

I could look straight down at where Luther is buried. The length and only a few feet to the right. And I just felt that it would be appropriate to preach there and did.

And just so thankful that I have have that memory to be able to do that.

I've been in the castle church a number of times before over the years. But and that may be the last time I ever get to be there.

But it is an incredible thing. But I think what people need to understand, let's let's

I've told the story before. Let me tell it just briefly again. When we were on that trip the first night in Berlin, I gave a talk to our group and I said, look,

I understand these men would not have extended to me the right hand of fellowship. Some of them would have had me banished, imprisoned and some drowned.

But we need to understand the reformers, not as a caricature, not as a cartoon, but as who they really were.

If we are going to actually honor the Reformation and hold to the principles of the

Reformation in a meaningful fashion. And it blew everybody away. It blew the staff away.

It blew the people on my on my trip. The people are going with us away because they had only heard

Luther and Calvin and Zwingli presented as these almost like superheroes.

And it's like they were they were men like you and I. They had prejudices. They were products of their time.

They did things that we are not proud of today. And of course, I had someone contact me just recently going,

I'm not going to, you know, someone was asking me why we should celebrate Reformation Day because Luther was an anti -Semite.

Well, there's a whole context to that. And if you don't know what that context is, then you're going to be so easily manipulated.

People don't know history or people are easily manipulated. And that's what we see going on around us. The same thing with Christians, too.

And Luther was motivated by false theology, not ethnicity.

Right. Well, most definitely. That was the theological thing.

But goodness, the popes, the popes out out anti -Jude Luther by by a long shot.

That doesn't make it right. But you need to understand even he went through different phases. He was actually not at all.

He was very open to evangelizing Jews and things like that. Up to 1525, it was after, you know,

I have a talk that I gave. Well, actually, five years.

Yeah. Five years ago today on October 31st, 2017, on the two

Luthers. And that's available on YouTube as well. If people want to catch up on what that was all about.

But the first thing to correct. Let me just I want to make sure we get to this. The first thing to correct are all these pictures and that everybody loves posting them.

But all these pictures of Luther. Standing in front of a crowd of people at the castle church door, nailing the 95 theses to the door.

Now, when I was young and I first heard this story, it was a little weird because I was a fundamentalist

Baptist. And we were hearing about Luther. And I was getting a feeling that what

Luther did was good. But we didn't think Lutherans were Christians. So I really couldn't figure the whole thing out.

You know, when you're fundamentalist, they don't look like you and worship like you. They're not saved anyway. Just like they would think that Anglicans are not

Christians. And yet their Bible was the only one we can use. Right. Well, stop that.

So anyway, if you've seen the picture, I'm sure you've seen it 20 times today already.

Luther pointing to the 95 theses and people are in shock and awe. And when

I first heard about it, I thought he did it like during a church service. So, you know, somebody's preaching and bang, bang, bang, bang, bang on the door.

And Luther sticks his head in, read this, you pagans, or something like that. And that's not what happened.

None of that is even close. Okay. The first thing you need to know about Reformation Day is that when

Luther walked up to the castle church door, there wouldn't have been anybody there. You know, there might have been some priests inside the church someplace or something.

Secondly, nobody would have noticed what he was doing. Probably a farmer walked by with one of his farm animals and said, good morning,

Father Martin. And he said, you know, good morning to him. And he nailed that up there because it was the community bulletin board.

There were all sorts of other things nailed up there, too. There were probably announcements about a missing pig and an upcoming, you know, free farmer's market to come into type thing or whatever else.

It was the place where people put notices. And so nobody would notice that you were putting a notice where you're supposed to put notices.

It wasn't any big deal. And nobody wouldn't have caused a crowd to gather around.

And Luther wouldn't be standing there with his hammer in his hand, pointing defiantly. All that stuff is just pure mythology.

What it was, and it amazes me how few people have actually read the 95

Theses. The 95 Theses are Catholic. They're written by a

Catholic priest. He refers to the pope in respectful tones.

Here is a man coming out of the medieval period.

And he has come to start to understand, not fully yet, but he started to come to understand the grace of God and salvation.

And there's been all sorts of stuff leading up to this. You have Wycliffe, you have

Hus, neither one of which have yet influenced Luther at this point. They will, but on October 31st, 1517, he just thinks

Jan Hus is a heretic. And so he doesn't know anything about that yet. But you have someone like Desiderius Erasmus who has published his

Greek New Testament. And Luther's been using that Greek New Testament and learning the differences between the

Greek and the Latin. And that's started to turn the lights on for him. But he's not anywhere near where he'll be only two years in the future.

And the 95 Theses are an advertisement attempting to arrange a debate with another university.

He is the new professor at the small little University of Wittenberg.

And he wants debates. Debates were a way for small universities to become known and to compete with bigger universities.

They were the equivalent of our football games between universities today. OK, so Saturday, you know,

Tennessee and all these, you know, everything that's going on in college football.

Well, they didn't have college football, but they did have university debates.

And so two universities would debate each other and the students would all get together and they would travel to one of the universities.

So this would be a multi -day thing because, you know, there weren't any airplanes and trains and so on and so forth.

And so you would literally have the debate all day long. So start in the morning, then there'd be lunch and it would continue in the afternoon.

And then you'd break for dinner. And at night, everybody got drunk and got into fights. And that's basically how it was done.

And then you'd make do it the next day and the day after that. If you can imagine debates lasting that long and you frequently have a team of professors from these universities that would trade off with one another in these in these debates.

And this was Luther trying to find a university that would take on Wittenberg on the subject of indulgences because he wasn't the only person who didn't like them.

There were a lot of people that did not like indulgences. Wasn't it more that he was against initially just the sale of indulgences?

Well, there was definitely that because but that was sort of German. The Germans were really not happy at all about the fact that the money that they would pay for indulgences wasn't staying in Germany to build churches or to help the poor.

It was going across the Alps and going to Rome for the building of St. Peter's Basilica.

And so one of the one of the background issues here is the rise of nationalism.

And up until recent years before the Reformation, everybody just viewed themselves as Catholics.

And there really wasn't a nationalistic aspect to it. But now nation states are rising, kingdoms are arising, and Germans don't like that the

Italians are getting the benefit of their money. And so the sale of indulgences is most definitely scandalous outside of Italy for that very reason.

In fact, can we pick up right there when we return from our midway break? And don't forget where you left off.

The sale of indulgences and the money going to Italy to build

St. Peter's Basilica was angering even Catholics who are German. But before we return to Dr.

White, we're going to a midway break. Please be patient with us. It's a little longer than the other breaks because Grace Life Radio requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they have to obey

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ChrisArnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and country of residence. And now to lead us into the commercial break is another song by Party Hardy Marty Luther and the

Protestors. This is a song that Party Hardy Marty wrote specifically to the

Pope. And it's not in your hymnals, unfortunately, but here it is. Party Hardy Marty and the

Protestors singing You Don't Own Me. Here's one for the big man in the big hat in the big chair in Rome, the

Pope. I dedicate this to him. You don't own me.

Don't push me around like your papal punks. You don't own me.

I'm no longer one of your papally monks. So don't tell me what to do.

And don't tell me what to say. And don't tell me when to kneel.

And don't tell me how to pray. You don't own me.

I'm not just another one of your toys. You don't own me.

I won't ring your bell just like your altar boys. So don't tell me what to do.

And don't tell me what to say. And don't tell me when to kneel.

And don't tell me how to pray. The sola spectora is my lay.

Un sola gratia, un sola vide. Un solus Christus is my king.

So I will bow to you.

You don't own me. Go read the note that I mailed to your store.

You don't own me. I'm not taking your papers full anymore.

So don't tell me what to do. And don't tell me what to say.

And don't tell me when to kneel. And don't tell me how to pray.

The sola spectora is my lay. Un sola gratia, un sola vide.

Un solus Christus is my king. So I will bow to your ring.

I might be a stone hill covered with snow. But I know when I dive into heaven

I'll go. That's why I'm a Christian warrior. To defend you don't own me.

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James R. White on the subject of Reformation Day and Dr. White you were just in the middle of discussing the whole matter of indulgences as being the primary reason that Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of the castle church in Wittenberg that's true but that was 10 minutes ago and at my age what are we talking about?

what I want to know is when did those 95 theses become the sparks that ignited the

Reformation that was like cannon fire that was heard around the world around the world yeah actually at least legendarily and there's good reason to think that it was true an enterprising

German printer came along and was reading the notices and encountered these 95 theses and of course they're 95 theses for debate that's the whole point is we'll take this side you take the other side and let's do the debate and he copied them down and printed them now

Luther I think said it was without his permission you know who knows given the firestorm that did result from it but they got out and really what needs to be understood is between 1517 and 1519 this is a period of great development in Luther's understanding how far is he going to go?

is he going to stay within the church? how far can he take this?

and in the very next year in 1518 he speaks at an

Augustinian meeting and a man by the name of Johann Eck is in attendance and Eck becomes

Luther's lifelong enemy they are I mean if you want to define the two people that just went head to head

Eck was the guy who saw where Luther was going and he warned

Rome he wrote to Rome many times and went to Rome and tried to tell the leadership you've got to deal with this guy now and they didn't for lots of reasons primarily political reasons because Rome was a completely political animal at that particular point in time and it was all a matter of you know where Saxony was and Duke Frederick and all this kind of stuff anyway they didn't move quickly enough but Eck knew that Luther was a problem and so what happens is you do finally have a debate that takes place at Leipzig in 1519 and Luther is not the primary debater again you'd have a team of professors but eventually he joins in the debate and on one very fateful day

Eck same Johann Eck challenges

Luther with a number of statements and what he does is he parallels statements that Luther has written over the past couple of years with Jan Hus now at the time this was in the morning of the debate at the time all

Luther knew about Jan Hus was that he was a famous heretic who was burned at the Council of Constance in 1414 1415 and so he hasn't read anything by Hus and so during the break during the lunch break

Luther hustles over to the library in Leipzig and finds some of Hus' material and to his dismay realizes that Eck is right and Luther is a

Hussite and he knows what that means he knows where this is going but he has to come back to the debate in the afternoon and Eck continues to press the point and there in front of important political figures who are in attendance

Luther admits that Hus taught many evangelical and biblically true things so on the way home from the debates

Luther tells Karlstadt he says I'm a

Hussite and it's like well what are we going to do now because we know what that means if you're a

Hussite that means you're a heretic and that's it was

Eck that forced Luther to start thinking through the authority issues because what

Eck was doing was saying you are interpreting these things on your own only the church has the right to interpret these things you're interpreting the bible on your own but only the church has the right to interpret the bible and it was

Eck who forced Luther to recognize the necessary formal principle of the

Reformation the more foundational principle of the Reformation and that is

Sola Scriptura that was not present in Luther's thinking

I mean Augustine said things similar to that but they would have been interpreted in the light of a thousand years of development of tradition since then but that was not a part of Luther's thinking on October 31st 1517 and it was forced upon him by the debate by Eck and people just need to understand how vitally important that is and that also helps us to think about I think the application to today because I it just seems to me that today we are in a rather dangerous situation and that is the vast majority of bible colleges, seminaries do not teach a high view of scripture it's a very modernistic view of scripture you know these are men's thoughts about God, Paul contradicted

James and Paul contradicted Peter and the Old Testament is just a cobbled together you know the

Torah is the J -E -D -P theory and you've got this that and that it's all cobbled together and it's completely incoherent and has no consistency to it at all and that's what is taught in the vast majority of bible colleges and seminaries.

Now the conservative ones, no, but we need to recognize those are not the majority and you combine that lethally flawed view of scripture with a ignorance of the history of the

Reformation and you end up with a view of scripture that can no longer substantiate the whole concept of sola scriptura if you have that modernistic view of scripture, sola scriptura is a joke it's impossible how can you have this self -contradictory, incoherent inconsistent ancient work that doesn't have any particular continuity to it, how can you say sola scriptura if you do not have the highest view of what the scriptura is?

In fact we have a listener a first time listener who has a question directly related to what you were just saying

Greg from Greenville Tennessee, can you ask brother James White to give a rundown of the

Reformation principles that Luther championed that Jan Hus actually stood for I believe

Luther's quote is accurately represented as we are all Hussites now

Greg yeah, we're all Hussites now because Hus of course was a student of Wycliffe and Wycliffe had written in his trialogus in the late 14th century therefore if there were a hundred popes and all the friars were turned into cardinals, their opinions and matters of faith should be believed only insofar as they are founded in scripture and so Wycliffe had he opposed the entire doctrine of transubstantiation he rejected the supremacy of the papacy he used the term sola gratia grace alone in defining his doctrine of justification he recognized that the bishop and presbyter are the same thing in the new testament that there had been development over time and so he saw a lot of this stuff he didn't see everything you've got to understand the context and the history but he saw a lot of this stuff but somehow managed to keep his head attached to his body due to various political realities of that day even though his body was exhumed and his bones were burnt and the ashes thrown into the river swift he didn't,

I can guarantee you he didn't care at that point but so Huss had access to the writings of Wycliffe and so he imbibed those same concepts and same doctrines in regards to sola scriptura justification now we need to be careful because would they have used the exact same terminology of reform scholasticism that would develop 200 -300 years in the future well no but if you just simply ask where they stand on these particular issues you can see where they they stood against the prevailing traditions of the day on these matters and were forced each one inevitably to recognize the supremacy of scripture over against human tradition and that became the it is to this day there was just a discussion held online just a couple days ago between a

Roman Catholic and a Protestant and what was the issue it was obviously sola scriptura, it's what it comes down to, you saw that over and over again in the debates we did on Long Island even though we debated sola scriptura there were all sorts of other topics but every other topic led to that yeah but they would all end up coming back to the same issue would be sola scriptura and that remains the issue today and as I was saying we are in a difficult position now

I think because you cannot believe in sola scriptura if you do not have the highest view of scripture it just doesn't make any sense if you read for example the first chapter of Westminster or London Confessions of Faith, the things that are said about scripture being the the only way you can actually interpret scripture scripture provides its own interpretation it's perspicuity it cannot be added to by human tradition all these things would require you to believe that scripture is theodistos it's inerrant and that's just not a part of where a lot of people are coming from and that's why there needs to be a renewal of the

Reformation honestly is so much of that has been lost and once you once you lose that something has to take that place of that in your authority structure that vacuum will suck everything else in and in general what you end up with is the concept of tradition some form of tradition somebody's definition of tradition will end up coming into that space and setting itself up even if it still continues to say something nice about the

Bible or confess the inspiration of the Bible or things like that once you place something above scripture and say well, yes, only scripture is the word of God, but you can't really understand scripture unless you have this, this, and this that's where your ultimate authority is going to end up being and so all of it does go back to the time of Reformation, and before that, really to the

Pre -Reformation Reformers By the way, Greg, you have won as a first -time questioner a free

New American Standard Bible so please give us your full mailing address in Greenville, Tennessee so that cvbbs .com

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NASB for providing us free Bibles for first -time questioners.

We have an old friend of mine who is actually a pastor and almost became my pastor at one point, but he dodged a bullet by God's mercy.

Pastor Joshua Fryman of New Testament Baptist Church of Larimore, North Dakota, who was at one time pastoring on Long Island he says,

James, first thank you for the work put into writing the books you have. Also I had the privilege of meeting you some years ago on Long Island.

You were gracious and kind, much different than how Chris Arnzen described you. He says my question stems from Ephesians 4 in light of the

Reformation, and there being different denominations that claim to champion Reformed theology.

Can you explain the relation between one spirit, one baptism, one body, and the fellowship of Presbyterians, Baptists, Lutherans, etc.?

Well, yeah. If the question is about what does it mean to be

Reformed, that's one thing. If the question is about how is it that these somewhat disparate groups all celebrate this day but use different terminology and on certain issues have very different teachings, that's a different issue.

I obviously have my closest relationships and fellowship with men with whom

I have the agreement on the central and key issues. And so, you know,

I don't have fellowship with people who do not believe that we are saved solely by grace alone, through faith alone, because it's just so definitional.

I can't have fellowship with Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. We don't believe in the same

God. We don't even define God or worship God in the same fashion. But, obviously, there are central defining doctrines that provide us that foundation upon which we stand, and then you have secondary doctrines, and then tertiary doctrines, and eventually you get out to the

Adiaphora, the things that don't make any difference one way or the other. And most divisions come from where you draw those lines.

The large majority, the fundamentalist experience in America is to draw those lines not only very starkly, but very broadly, to where you make even eschatological viewpoints absolutely definitional of the faith, and therefore, how many times have

I heard a fundamentalist dismiss a mid -tripper as going to hell, or something like that.

And that's what happens when you draw that circle very, very, very, very large, and say that everything is a defining doctrine.

But most people obviously don't do that. If you look at the New Testament, it's focused upon worship of the true

God, through Christ, the true gospel. But then a large majority of people go too far the other direction, to where, for example, the gospel isn't even considered to be definitional.

And so the mere Christianity movement basically says, if you have the Trinity and the

Resurrection, that's pretty much all we can get agreement on. We're never going to get agreement on soteriology, and therefore it needs to be left off to the side.

And we need to build a big tent based upon just a couple of affirmations.

Like Apostles' Creed only Christians. Yeah, there's almost too much in the

Apostles' Creed for that. There's... There's...

You're trying to make the target as small as possible, basically, to try to get as much unity as you can from that perspective.

And, I mean, it just doesn't make any sense. It doesn't work. It has to throw the

Book of Galatians pretty much out of the canon as well, to be perfectly honest with you. Because, you know,

Paul makes it very clear that the gospel is very much definitional. So, but if you have mature believers that can look at Church history, look at Scripture, see what the central issues really are, and then allow for necessary differences of viewpoint on secondary issues, that's not saying that some of those secondary issues aren't really, really, really important.

You know, that's why I can fellowship with Michael Brown, but I can't be a part of Michael Brown's Church because those secondary issues where we disagree are really important issues.

But we agree on the primary things, and therefore are able to work together in defending the

Trinity, or the debates we've done on homosexuality and things like that. We are able to, you know, do that kind of thing.

Same thing with, you know, for example, Doug Wilson, where we will debate each other, but then we can also work together in accomplishing a lot of things, too.

So, it takes a certain level of not only maturity, but a desire to have unity.

And I certainly have that, though these days it's a little tough, because sometimes you feel a little bit alone if you do.

But we go back to the Reformation and its central concerns, and when you look at the

Protestant movement as a whole today, very little of what is called

Protestantism today is self -consciously attempting to look back to Luther, or back to that particular context, and continue to hold those truths.

They're really not. They don't have that kind of connection to history at all.

I want to give a plug to Pastor Josh Fryman and his church, because he's such a superb preacher, and a man with the true heart of a shepherd.

The church is New Testament Baptist Church of Larimore, North Dakota, and the website is larimorentbc, standing for New Testament Baptist Church, larimorentbc .org,

larimorentbc .org, larimore is spelled L -A -R -I -M -O -R -E. Thanks a lot, Pastor Josh, I miss you greatly.

We have another friend of mine, Dr. Latane C. Scott, who is a former

Mormon, who by the mercy of Christ, and the grace of Christ, came to genuine faith in the true

Christ, and the true gospel of the true scriptures. She asks, what else is on Dr.

White's bucket list, in addition to your preaching from Martin Luther's pulpit, what else did you have?

You know, I don't know that I have much of a bucket list, I think this was more of a, in hindsight, you know, things that you know you will never, ever, ever forget, and I'm so thankful that a great recording was made, great pictures were taken,

I had great people there with me at that time, had some humorous things happen, you stand behind this divider wall, and it's a circular staircase that goes up to the pulpit, and there's a guy who works in the church there, and I was back there, and he said, so you're going to be preaching, huh?

I said, yeah, yeah, and he says, well, just one thing to remember is if you're standing up there, you're on the same level as all the other

Reformers, and there are these statues they put up of the Reformers, and if you stand in the pulpit, they're all at the same level with you, and it was a little bit weird to look out there and to see that, and of course, as a

Baptist, that was certainly the first time I'd ever preached in an elevated pulpit, but I'm sure you've heard me mention that there was a little bit of a buzz in the sound system when

I first started speaking, and when I came out of the pulpit and was standing with Mike and Josh Bice and stuff like that,

I said, well, if you heard that little buzz at the beginning, that was Luther spinning in his grave because a

Baptist was preaching. And believe you me, if you could spin in your grave, he would have been spinning in his grave that a

Baptist was standing in his pulpit, but yeah, that opportunity, you know,

I almost had the opportunity of getting to go to St. Peter's in Geneva, that fell through, it didn't happen, probably won't now, but that would be a wonderful thing to get to do, would be to preach there.

But I've just been to so many wonderful places around the world. People say, well, you're not flying now, so aren't you sad about that?

And I suppose on one level, I am, but I got to do it for so long, and got to see so many amazing places, and you know,

I mean, I was teaching scripture in Samara, Russia, in January of 2019, and you know,

I'm just not going to forget that. Those were tremendous opportunities to the number of years

I went to Kiev, Ukraine, and taught there. The sadness of seeing the church, or the school building that I lectured in for years on fire, having been shelled by the

Russians, and destroyed. You know, but those are things that I would, honestly,

I would say that along with what happened in Wittenberg, if you look up the debate that I did with Yusuf Ismail in the

Gray Street Mosque in Durban, South Africa, that was the mosque of Ahmed Didat, probably the most, still probably the most listened to Islamic apologist ever.

That was the mosque he went to, and I stood in that mosque, not in a room associated with the mosque, but in front of the

Qibla, in the mosque itself, after the prayers had been finished, and defended the deity of Christ in that place.

I would say that goes right along with standing in Luther's pulpit, but in sort of a different context, obviously.

I think that was a pretty fantastic thing, and I've got pictures of me standing in Spurgeon's pulpit, preaching at the

Metropolitan Tabernacle in London as well. And so, yeah,

I've gotten to do some pretty amazing things, and I'm thankful for that, and if I don't get to go back to those places, and if I just continue traveling the we -have -enough -fuel, can afford to travel the nation's highways, and meet with the

Christ people in wonderful places, like I hopefully will be in just a few weeks, that'd be great too.

That's perfectly fine as well. And of course, you and I know, one of your bucket list wishes that was checked off a number of times as being a guest on Einstein Radio.

I just figured that was a given. Everybody knows that. But also, singing a duet with me, when we were before you became a post - millennialist, when we were making fun of Rich Jensen for being a post -millennialist, high hopes, we've got high hopes, he's got

Hal Lindsey stickin' in your high hopes. Yep, I remember.

And we are going to our final break, which is going to be a lot more brief than any of the breaks. If you have a question you want to get in line, send it to chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

chrisarnsen at gmail .com, give us your first name at least, your city and state and country of residence. We'll be right back with James White.

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royaldiadem .com, and make sure you mention Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We have

Cindy in Findlay, Ohio, who is responding to something you said earlier,

I can't find anything on YouTube about two Luthers. She wants more details about what you said about two

Luthers. Yeah, it was at the James White Two Luthers.

Yep, first thing that comes up, if you go to YouTube, put in James White Two Luthers, Martin Luther and the dangers of sacralism, this is from four years ago, and interestingly enough, it's right above my sermon from the

Castle Church, Faithfulness in the Secular Age, and then right above that is the just four minutes and five second video that we shot at the

Wartburg Castle about Fritz Erba, which is another fascinating Reformation story that needs to be told, and I highly recommend that people listen to it.

Was he the one in the cage, or entombed in the tunnel, or something? He's the one that, as an

Anabaptist, was arrested and eventually dropped into the bottom of a windowless, doorless cell at the

Castle Church, not Castle Church, the Wartburg Castle where Luther had hidden out after the

Diet of Worms, and he was kept in there for seven years before he died, and Luther knew he was there and agreed with his imprisonment, and that was part of the issue.

I mentioned that in the two Luthers as well. You have the pre -1525

Luther and the post -1525 Luther, and there is a massive difference between the two. What happened in 1525 was the

Peasants' Revolt, and Luther was so afraid of anarchy that, as a result of what happened in 1525, really, he changed a lot.

For example, when the Zwickau Prophets first came to Bird, he said they should be heard out, we should listen to them.

That all changed. That changed tremendously after 1525, and he was willing to see the death penalty used, and imprisonment, and things like that.

So, I addressed those issues in those videos. So, yeah, if you just put

James White, two Luthers, in the search engine on YouTube, the first three videos that will pop up will give you all that.

In fact, as I'm looking at it, interestingly enough, down below is my presentation from the

Reformation Day in 2017 on a justification as well. So, there you go.

Well, thank you so much for your excellent question. We have David from Albuquerque, New Mexico.

Happy Reformation Day to James and Chris and all your listeners. James, do you plan to see the documentary 1946 and write a response to it?

I don't know about writing a response to it. I would assume that everything that is already in Robert Gagnon's book, everything that's in Michael Brown's book, everything that's in my book is already a refutation of what's going to be there, and I've done two major programs on the dividing line on the subject already.

So, yes, I'll definitely see it. I'm not sure I'm going to go anywhere to see it, but I will definitely see it, and we will probably do—well,

Michael Brown and I have talked about having him on the dividing line to discuss it and me going on his program to discuss it as well.

So, we'll be doing some recorded stuff because, you know, it's video, so it'd probably be best to do video in response to it.

If there's a need for something in a written format, sure, that would be certainly within the realm of possibility.

But, yeah, we've known this is coming for a long time, and I can pretty much guarantee you that in the two debates

I did with Graham Codrington on YouTube down in South Africa that we will have covered pretty much everything that'll come up in that particular pro -homosexual argument as well.

All righty, we have—let's see here—Joseph in South Central Pennsylvania who says,

Something earlier that you said sparked this question in my mind.

I have encountered many people, primarily independent fundamentalist Baptists, who mocked us for celebrating

Reformation Day, and they will say that because of Luther's acquiescence to the martyrdom of Anabaptists, we should not celebrate him as a hero.

And, of course, they will bring up John Calvin as well and highly exaggerate his involvement in the execution of Michael Servetus and actually claim that he was responsible for the murder of Baptists in Geneva.

How do we respond to these folks? After we recorded the

Fritz Erba video that we were just talking about that is on YouTube, I had one of the folks that was part of our group come up to us and say,

I just don't know how we can, you know, honor Martin Luther if he knew

Fritz Erba was down that hole and he did nothing to try to free him. I don't know how he could be a

Christian. And my response was be very careful, because if you establish that standard, you are going to have a hard time finding any

Christians for lengthy, lengthy periods of time in Church history. And thankfully, after a few more stops and a few more talks and things like that, that was made clear.

And by the end, that individual had said, okay, I get what you're saying now. But this really goes back to, and I just taught

Church history, early Church history at Grace Bible Theological Seminary, and I started off with a discussion of how we do history and the fact that we haven't been really taught how to do history.

We tend to judge the people of the past on our standards today rather than the standards of what they knew and what was believed in their day.

And so, when you do that with anybody, you go all the way back to the earliest periods of Church history.

If you want to separate yourself from these people, you'll find plenty of ways to do so.

It'll be easy to do. If you want to fairly judge them, and I like to say, and this is an eschatological issue.

You know, in the past, if I said something about how do you want the future to judge you, for a lot of people, there isn't going to be a future.

Every generation thinks this is the last generation. But when you really do think about the future and take seriously the reality that there will be a future, then how do you want to be judged?

Do you want to be judged based upon what you know now? Or do you want to be judged based upon what you cannot possibly know now, but what someone may know in the future?

The answer is obvious, and I just simply say we need to have as much grace toward those in the past as we would want to have extended toward us.

And that's how you do history in a way that will allow you to see the good and appreciate the good, as well as recognize the bad, and to go, you know what?

I may have things in my belief systems that, you know,

I have my blind spots. Luther had his blind spots. But when people normally bring that up,

I'm like, you know, the fact of the matter is, would you have gone as far as Luther did? If you lived in that day, would you have had the temerity, the courage to go as far as they did?

You're thinking they didn't go far enough. Fine. If you look me in the eye and think you would have gone farther,

I question your understanding of history, and I question your self -understanding as well.

So, those would be some of the things that I would say. It's how to do history and to do it right in a meaningful fashion.

Yes, and people have to be very leery of what they have heard claimed about the

Reformers. One friend of mine, who I haven't seen in years, but he was a student at a

Pentecostal Bible college, and one of the reasons he rejected Calvinism is that he was taught that John Calvin had

Baptists impaled to stakes on the property of his castle, and I told him that was

Vlad the Impaler, and they were not Baptists, they were Muslims. That was the idea for Dracula.

That was not John Calvin. Well, Calvin lived in a tiny little apartment, had almost nothing, he didn't have a castle to begin with.

It's really hard to swallow there. Yeah, and so that obviously was, and in fact,

I think an argument pursued. But anyway, I want you now to have about 90 seconds to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

Well, I just think it's good that at this time of year, each year, we are reminded of the fact that God has worked in rescuing

His Church from the darkness that had enveloped it, and that that darkness came from the eclipsing of the ultimate authority of by a system of tradition.

Well, you know, we know the phrase, post -Tenebrous Lux, after darkness, light.

And if we cannot understand clearly the nature of what the darkness was, then we probably are not going to be able to maintain the light that we did indeed receive at that time.

And as we look back over the past 500 years, there has been a tremendous amount of light.

But we've become accustomed to it, we've lived in it, we've taken it for granted, and as a result, we're losing it.

That's not the first time that's happened in history, and it seems to be happening again.

And so my prayer is that people will understand what that darkness was, be thankful for that light, and to pray for a rekindling of that light in our day.

By the way, folks, Pastor Josh Fryman updated me. The new name of the church that he pastors in Larimore, North Dakota is

Harvest Baptist Church of Larimore, North Dakota, and the website is larimorehbc .org,

larimorehbc .org. And Dr. James R. White's website for Alpha Omega Ministries is aomin .org,

aomin .org. I want to thank you so much, Dr. White, for being a guest. You know you have an open door here at all times to be a guest in the future.

I want to thank everybody who listened, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater