Is Jesus God Almighty? Part 1

Well good evening everyone. It's great to see you this evening. My name is

Doug McMasters. I'm the pastor here at New High Park Baptist Church and also will be moderating this debate.

And on behalf of New High Park Baptist Church and Shadid and James, I want to give you a warm welcome this evening.

Thank you for coming and being here with us. If there's room where you're seated, if you can try to move to the middle and we can get a couple more in.

This is Long Island so I'm sure we have about 20 % going to be coming in after we get started. But we do have an overflow over there so we can always direct from there.

So if there's no room and you feel comfortable there or if you feel like you need to leave for any reason and would not like to disturb as the debate's going on, you can always go into the gym area.

There's a live feed in there. There's a minute delay so if you hear everybody laughing and you're looking at the screen wondering why it's not funny, just wait a minute.

This is a cell phone or a smart phone, whatever you might have. Just please ensure that the ringer is turned off.

I officiated a wedding in Oheka Castle some months ago and a phone went off and the lady answered it and she continued to talk while the wedding was going on.

So if you would please just make sure that's turned off. Restrooms, as you might have already discovered, there's restrooms here on this level.

As you go back through this door near the mirror on the left is the ladies, on the right is the men's. There's also more downstairs.

You can go down the steps and there are restrooms there. Fire exits, for those of you in the front rows, you can go through this door and down the steps there's a fire exit there and of course there's doors here and there and through the gym just in case we need that for any reason.

We're going to have a break this evening and there's some water stations around and also some coffee available.

We ask that if you do bring water, you can bring water in here but please don't bring any coffee in here.

We just appreciate any accidents do happen. So water doesn't stay.

As you came in, you might have received a card. We have a limited number of cards.

If you didn't get one, I'm sorry, but we gave away as many as we possibly could. There's going to be a time for questions to be answered.

Of course, not every question is going to be able to be answered. I think that just stands to reason, but if you would, please feel free to write a question down.

We'll be going through those during the break and answering those a little later in the debate.

Right before we have a break, we're going to have a collection, receive a collection. All of that is going to go as an honorarium to our speakers.

None of it's going to be kept by us at all, so please feel free to give so that they might receive,

I think, due recommendation for all the labor that they put in in order to be here this evening. At the same time, that would also be a good time to put your questions in, submit your questions, so we can receive those.

I think for the moment that addresses some of the logistical matters. Let me just talk a bit about the debate.

I want to mention three things very briefly. First, the necessity of this debate. Secondly, to introduce our speakers.

Third, to give you an idea of what to expect and to give you that format. Increasingly in today's society, engaging debate is being swept aside by two opposing forces.

The first is pluralism, the idea that all religions are equally true and valid in their communication about the truth of God, the world, and salvation.

To a pluralist, neither Islam nor Christianity can be seen as absolute and unique in the final way to God.

They assert the validity of all religions, but they deny the finality of all religions to speak ultimately about truth.

We don't agree with that. We believe there is truth to be known, and this debate will bring that to bear.

The second force is prejudice, and there is a lot of prejudice in society today, an unfavorable opinion formed beforehand without knowledge, without thought, or without reason, that results in unreasonable attitudes and even hostility.

So this is not only a time for truth to be known, but also for education to be received by all of us so that we might understand what the issues are.

So we engage this evening, not sweeping our differences aside, but by bringing those differences together with their full force in order to ensure that truth has its voice.

We believe here that the consequences of error are not merely temporal or societal, but they are eternal as we face a holy

God. And so this evening, the matter of this evening about the person of Jesus Christ is one of interest to us all, and I believe is of eternal consequence to us all.

Both Christianity and Islam affirm the person of Jesus, both afford Jesus a very high place, and the difference lies in the understanding of his person and nature.

Who is Jesus? How you answer that question makes all the difference.

Let me introduce our speakers. First is Shadid. Welcome, Shadid. This is Shadid Lewis, originally from Long Island, I've recently discovered.

So welcome back. It's good to have you here. Shadid is a member of the Muslim Debate Initiative and is the director of the

U .S. branch of the Muslim Debate Initiative, which is formed of members from the Muslim community with experience in public speaking, apologetics, polemics, research, and community work.

Shadid also currently serves as president of the Hampton Mosque and Islamic Center in Virginia.

He has his certification in comparative religion from the Islamic Research and Propagation Center and has studied the sciences of the

Quran at the American Open Islamic University in Fairfax, Virginia. Let's give him a welcome, shall we?

James White. Welcome, James. He's director of Alpha Omega Ministries, a

Christian apologetics organization that's based in Phoenix, Arizona, and he told me today it's 95 degrees there.

Welcome to Long Island. James is a professor having taught

Greek, systematic theology, and various topics in the field of apologetics. He's authored several books, some 24 books, including

The King James Only Controversy, The Forgotten Trinity, The Potter's Freedom, and The God Who Justifies.

He is a debater and has engaged in more than 140 moderated public debates around the world on issues of Roman Catholicism, Islam, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, and several well -known nationally and universally known critics.

In recent years, he's also debated in various mosques, most recently in South Africa, and one in London.

He's the elder of Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church, and he's married to Kelly for more than 32 years.

He doesn't look like that's possible, but he has been. He has two children and one grandchild,

Clementine. So let me give you an idea of what to expect this evening.

We're going to begin with two opening statements of 20 minutes each, and James White is going to go first.

And that's going to be followed by two 10 -minute rebuttals, and then subsequent to that, two 5 -minute second rebuttals.

And that will then lead us into our time for the collection, the submission of the questions, and for us to take a break.

After we come back from the break, both of our speakers will engage in cross -examination, where James White will be asking

Shadid questions for 10 minutes, and then Shadid will be asking James questions for 10 minutes.

And then we'll open it up to submitted audience questions, and the time frame for that will be determined on what the evening's looking like.

And then each speaker will have the opportunity to provide 7 -minute closing remarks. And it's customary for the first to go last, and so James, since he's starting this evening, will be finishing it off, and Shadid will be the first to speak to that.

So, without further ado, let's welcome James White and open up our debate this evening.

Well, it is indeed a great honor to be with you this evening, and unfortunately, we have a lot to talk about in a very, very short period of time.

So I hope you will get a deep seat in the saddle, as we say out west, and listen very closely, because I think this is an extremely important subject.

Our two communities need to be able to communicate with one another, to talk with one another, and it is our honor this evening to be able to engage in this kind of debate.

I'm going to try to get my presentation going up there, but unfortunately, I'm clicking and it's not clicking, so that's not a good thing at all.

There we go, let's see now. And it's green, and I'm going to have to go next slide, please, because the clicker is not working.

Unfortunate, I'll keep trying to get it to work eventually, but anyways, in the Islamic -Christian conflict, there really is no middle ground of compromise.

The Christian is one who believes, with the Apostle Thomas, that Jesus is our Lord and our

God, as he said in John 20, 28. And with the early church, confesses that he is our great

God and Savior, as we read in Titus chapter 2, verse 13. Next one, please.

And for the Muslim, the question is answered by the overriding authority of the Qur 'an. In Surah 112, 3,

Allah, according to that text in the Qur 'an, Allah beginneth not, nor is he begotten.

Christ Jesus, son of Mary, was no more than an apostle of Allah, we are told in Surah 4, 171.

Please, when I do that, let's go. And then we have in Surah chapter 9, the

Jews called Uzzar a son of Allah, and the Christians called Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth.

In this, they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say, Allah's curse be upon them, how they are deluded away from the truth.

They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah. And they take as their lord

Christ, the son of Mary, yet they were commanded to worship but one

Allah. There is no god but he, praise and glory to him. Far is he from having the partners they associate with him.

That is from Surah 9 in the Qur 'an. Very, very strong, strong words that we have presented there in regards to what we as Christians, the people of the book, are supposed to believe.

Ibn Kathir, one of the early commentators on the Qur 'an, the Tafsir literature, commented on these ayahs and said,

Allah, the exalted, encourages the believers to fight the polytheists, disbelieving Jews and Christians, who utter this terrible statement and utter lies against the law of the exalted.

As for the misguidance of Christians over Isa, it is obvious. This is why

Allah declared both groups to be liars. That's from the Tafsir of Ibn Kathir. And this is the reason given for fighting against Christians to ensure their continued humiliation, degradation, and disgrace.

And so that is a theological issue on the part of the Qur 'an is what Christians believe about who

Jesus is. So we have to discuss this. We have to deal with this issue. It's very, very important.

Is Jesus God Almighty? Well, the Christian answer to this question is specific, it is biblical, and it is balanced.

But it is likewise not understood by most Muslims, because it was not understood by the author of the

Qur 'an itself. Muslims following the Qur 'an assume Unitarianism and read

Unitarianism into their reading of the Christian scriptures. They assume that there is only one person of God, and they just read that into the reading of the

New Testament, even when the New Testament goes against that kind of understanding. Let's have a definition of what we're talking about this evening.

And I would like to say the Muslims get to define what Islam is. The Christians get to define what

Christianity is. We don't get to define that, what the other one believes. What is the doctrine of the

Trinity? Within the one being that is God, there exists eternally three co -equal and co -eternal persons, namely the

Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Being and person are two different things. We are all human beings, but we're all different persons.

A rock has being, but it has no personality. We have limited finite being, but we are each individual persons.

Being and person is not the same thing, and if you're going to insist that they are, then I'm going to have to ask you to explain why you can insult a rock all day and it won't get offended at you.

Because if you're saying the same thing, then you're going to have to explain how that works. Note that we are saying, we are not saying that Jesus is the

Father. We are not saying Jesus is the Spirit. This is a common misunderstanding of many people.

Any and all demonstrations this evening, that the Father is other than the Son, that the

Father and Son are distinguished, etc. Utterly irrelevant to the

Christian teaching of the Trinity, since the Trinity specifically asserts these very truths.

Keep that in mind. Then how can the Christian say,

Jesus is God Almighty? Well, first of all, the Bible quotes Jesus saying that. The best reading of Revelation 1 -8 is,

I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was, and who is to become, the Almighty. And in the context, those words are most probably spoken by Jesus himself.

And so if they are, very clearly, he is identifying himself in that fashion in Revelation 1 -8.

But, likewise, I would assert that Jesus shares the one being that is

God, shown in the use of the term Yahweh. That is the Hebrew term for Yahweh on the screen, it's called the

Tetragrammaton. It is the very name of God in the Old Testament, it's used thousands of times of God there.

And the New Testament writers associate that name with the Father, the Son, and the

Spirit. So, think about this argument. There is only one being of God, we are absolute monotheists.

I believe Hosea 11 -9, 23 -19, all those other texts. I've debated many Mormons on this subject.

We believe there is only one God. The name by which this God revealed himself in ancient days was

Yahweh. The Father is identified as Yahweh, because Yahweh lays our sins upon the

Messiah, for example. The Spirit is the Spirit of Yahweh, and the Son is specifically identified as Yahweh by the

Christian scriptures. And I'm going to give you a couple of texts in the biblical portion here in a moment, that demonstrate that that is the case.

So, if you have one being of God, Yahweh, and you have three persons that are distinguished from one another, and yet they're all sharing that one name, this is why the scriptures forced

Christians to the doctrine of the Trinity. It's not something that is made up and then played with the scriptures to make it fit.

This is looking at the evidence of the scriptures themselves and coming to a conclusion from that. Alright?

Now, Jesus is God Almighty, since Jesus is the incarnation of the second person of the

Trinity. The eternal Lagos, the one who shared the glory of the Father in eternity past, according to John 17, 5.

This does not make us polytheists, nor does it confuse the Father and the Son, as long as we allow all of the

New Testament to speak. And that will be the real issue this evening, whether we will allow that to happen.

Now, think about just some of the phraseologies used in the New Testament of Jesus. He's called the

Lamb of God. He is called the Son of God. He's called the First and the

Last. The Word of God. The Risen Lord. The Creator of all.

Worshipped by men and angels, and all of creation. He is the object of prayer.

In John 14, the disciples are told to pray to Him. He is called the Alpha and the Omega. The Beginning and the

End. All creation bows to Him. That's not all. All the fullness of deity, that which makes

God, God, dwells in Him bodily. All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Him.

He is called the Great I Am. Every thought is to be taken captive to His obedience. He is called our

Great God and Savior. He's called the Eternally Blessed God. The early church prays and suffers in His name.

Emmanuel, God with us, is the term that's used of Him. He is called El Gabor in Isaiah 9 .6.

The Mighty God, same word used in Isaiah 10 .21 of Yahweh Himself. Lord, God, Creator, Savior, Lamb of God, Risen and Coming King, Kings and Lord of Lords.

There really isn't any question, my friends, what the Bible teaches about who Jesus Christ is.

You have to deny biblical authority. You have to tear the Bible into shreds to not see what the teaching of the

New Testament is in regards to who Jesus Christ is. And so the question this evening is very clearly answered by the biblical evidence itself.

But I haven't gone through the texts. And since I have to prove it, let's take a look at those particular texts.

The real issue this evening, when we think about it, is Islamic denials of the deity of Christ are not generally biblically based.

They are due to the anachronistic acceptance of the claims of a 7th century text, the Quran, written by a man without any direct access to the

Bible itself. The Bible hadn't even been translated into Arabic yet. It wouldn't be for another 200 some odd years from the time that he was alive.

And so, while the New Testament by its first century, and I argue, eyewitness testimony to the words, actions and teachings of Jesus, the

Quran is, historically speaking, irrelevant to any inquiry into Jesus' life and ministry. Historically, there is no connection.

It's 600 years removed from the time of Jesus. We'll see this evening if we are consistent in our handling of that kind of historical information in comparison to the

New Testament. Now, how do we know about the deity of Christ? Three quick lines of evidence. One, it is demonstrated by the identification of Jesus with the word ta 'as, which means

God. He is called God. Secondly, it's demonstrated by the identification of Jesus as Yahweh, Yahweh the

Lord. And thirdly, demonstrated by ascribing to Jesus the prerogatives, rights and powers of the creator himself.

Now, I'm going to have to be very brief. I only have about nine minutes left, and so I need to be quick with this. But I want to give you this information as a basis of our conversation.

Jesus as God. For example, in Isaiah 9 -6, he is prophetically described as El Gabor, the mighty

God. In Titus 2 -13 and 2 Peter 1 -1, in the original language, we have what's called the

Granville -Sharp construction. And in both those constructions, Jesus is described as our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Both the terms God and Savior are being applied to Jesus the Messiah. And of course, the

Apostle Thomas, when he sees Jesus risen from the dead, answers and says to Jesus, all of these words, my

Lord and my God. It wasn't my Lord, my God. That's impossible. They were all addressed to Jesus.

That's what the original language specifically states. Each of these places, the term God is being used of Jesus.

John 1 -1 describes the pre -incarnate word, the Logos, as existing in eternal fellowship with the Father.

And the word was deity is an expressive translation of that last phrase in John 1 -1.

The word was as to his nature, God. He is truly deity. Not angelic or anything lesser.

He is truly God. In Colossians 2 -9, we have the phrase, the fullness of deity. Pleromates theocytos.

That which makes God, God. Dwelling in Jesus Christ, in his resurrected state, bodily.

This is the assertion of the letter to the church at Colossae. The New Testament writers often quote

Old Testament passages that are uniquely about Yahweh and apply these texts to Jesus.

These are monotheistic Jews. And that they're applying these texts to Jesus in Hebrews 1 -10 -12.

You have a quotation of Psalm 102 -25 -27, which is about Yahweh as the unchanging creator.

And those words are applied in the incarnate Son, Jesus Christ. Look at the words. Look, it says, and you,

Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning. Your weapons are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain.

They will all wear out like a garment. Like a robe, you will roll them up. Like a garment, they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.

That's quoted in Hebrews chapter 1 from Psalm 102. It originally was about the fact that Yahweh never changes.

And now it's being described of the Son in Hebrews chapter 1. Clearly, the writer of the Hebrews identifies

Jesus as Yahweh. But he's not the only one. And likewise, in John 12 -41, the apostle

John, having quoted from Isaiah's temple vision, where Isaiah saw Jehovah sitting upon his throne, lofty and lifted up, where the prophet sees him, there he actually says that the one that Isaiah saw was

Jesus. Look at John 12 -41. It says, Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory, and he spoke of him.

If you ask Isaiah, Isaiah, who did you see? His response would be, I saw Yahweh. If you ask

John, who did Isaiah see? His response is, he saw Jesus. And so you have the writer of the

Hebrews. You have John identifying Jesus as Yahweh in arguable terms.

And both believe there is only one true God. What does that mean their faith was all about? Jesus as creator, for by him,

Colossians chapter 1 says, for by him all things are created, both in the heavens and on the earth, visible and invisible, or thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities.

All things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things soon nest again.

They hold together, they consist. That is a description of the creator himself.

And these words are used of Jesus, specifically to refute the early forms of Gnosticism that were coming into the church that viewed

Jesus as a demigod or a lesser being amongst the eons in the

Gnostic play Roma, which is a topic we may end up getting into. I hope we don't have to, but if we do, we'll talk a little bit about Gnosticism later in the evening.

Jesus also identified as the great I am. In the Gospel of John, a number of times, the phrase ego

I me is used by Jesus in a specific way to identify himself with the same use of that term in the

Greek Septuagint that's found in Isaiah 43. It's found in the Minor Prophets. It's used many times as another word for describing

Yahweh. So, for example, in John 8, 58, Jesus says to the Jews, truly, truly,

I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.

And what do they do? They pick up stones to stone Jesus. Why do they pick up stones to stone Jesus? Because they know exactly what he's claiming.

They can see his day. He had already said in John 8, 24, unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.

They know that he is blaspheming unless he is who he claims to be. And then in John 13, 19, a tremendous text.

From now on, I am telling you before it comes to pass, so when it does occur, you may believe that ego

I me, I am. That's quoting directly to Isaiah 43, 10, which is where Jehovah's Witnesses get their name, by the way.

And in both places, in the Old Testament, Yahweh is saying, it happens before it happens, so when it happens, you may believe that I am.

And Jesus is doing the same thing, talking about Judas, and quotes from that, and tells his disciples, when it happens, you will know that I am.

Jesus knew his Old Testament. He knew what he was quoting, and he knew what he was applying to himself. He said to them,

I am he. And Judas also was betraying him. This is John chapter 18, was standing with him. So when he said to them,

I am he, they drew back and fell to the ground, John 18, 5 -6. When the soldiers come to arrest

Jesus, and Jesus says, ego I me, they fall back upon the ground. Please tell me why that happened.

And please don't say, well, it's because they weren't accustomed to encountering such moral purity. Yeah, it happens all the time.

Soldiers run into moral purity, and they fall over all the time. It's an amazing thing. No, that's not why it happened. Jesus was using a phrase, and John is communicating to us the reality of who

Jesus really was. And that's why it's so important this evening, my friends, because what did Jesus say in John 8, 24?

Therefore, I say to you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that ego I me, you will die in your sins.

I don't think dying in your sins is something you want to do. And Jesus said, unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.

Very, very important. The early church was a singing church, and one of their early hymns, we have a fragment of it in Philippians chapter 2, verses 5 -11.

And I will close with this. Because this is one of the most beautiful texts in all the New Testament. Listen to what the

Apostle Paul said to the church of Philippi. You must have the same mindset among yourselves that was in Christ Jesus.

And here's where the hymn begins. Who, although he eternally existed in the very form of God, did not consider that equality he had with God the

Father something to be held on to at all costs. But instead, he made himself nothing.

Now notice how he did this. Notice, this was not done to him. This he did voluntarily.

He made himself nothing. How? By taking on the very form of a slave by being made in human likeness.

The humiliation that Jesus endured was by taking on our frame, our form, our nature.

God didn't cease being God in the incarnation. God knows how to take on a human nature without ceasing to be

God. Jesus was the God -man, perfectly God, perfectly man, didn't cease being God in any way.

And he made himself of no reputation by taking on the very form of a slave by being made in human likeness.

He became nothing by taking on that form. And having entered into human existence, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even the death one dies on a cross.

Yes, the cross is the universal, unquestioned historical reality of how

Jesus Christ died. There is no one who denied that outside of Gnosticism. And we can talk about that at a little later point.

Even the death one dies on a cross. Because of this, God the Father exalted him to the highest place and bestowed on him the name which is above every name.

Everyone who is in heaven, on earth, and under the earth bows the knee and every tongue confesses

Jesus Christ is kurios, the very same term used of Yahweh in the Old Testament, all to the glory of God the

Father. Notice the distinction? Jesus is exalted and yet he's not confused with the

Father. His exaltation does not detract from the glory of the Father, it adds to the glory of the

Father. And this is the primitive faith of the church. Is this a later invention?

No, it is not. I don't have time, but there are a number of references I have that I was going to give to you in regards to the early church who believed this.

The point is the testimony of the New Testament is explicit, it is clear, we believe that Jesus Christ is

God Almighty. He's not the Father, he's not the Spirit, Okay, let's welcome

Shadeed now who's going to give this 20 -minute presentation. Shadeed. Greetings.

Peace be unto you. I begin in the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the

Most Merciful. By now, most people should be aware that Islam, if you don't know, is the only non -Christian faith that I'm aware of that as part of its belief accepts and believes in Jesus.

The question, though, is what do Muslims believe about Jesus? And that question will be answered in tonight's debate.

The subject matter is is Jesus God Almighty the

Most High? Of course, in Islam, as James White, as Dr. White mentioned, in Islam, that answer is a clear no.

We read in the Quran, chapter 5, verse 75, it says the Messiah, the

Son of Mary, and other messengers had gone before Him.

Now, this is not a derogatory term to say He's only a messenger because a messenger who

God selects is a very high title to have because, obviously, we are not all called to be messengers of God.

So this is not a degrading or a put -down. But it is to say that, in other words, He's a human being. He's not

God. We read further in chapter 43, verse 59. It says, speaking of Jesus, He was naught but a servant and we made

Him an example to the children of Israel. Now, of course, telling you is not enough.

And contrary to what you may have heard in the media that Islam demands forceful submission, it's quite the contrary.

In the Quran, chapter 16, verse 125, we read, Call to the way of your

Lord with wisdom and goodly exhortation and have disputations or debate with them in the best manner.

And He knows best those who go astray from His path and He knows best those who follow the right way. So as you can see here in the

Quran, what we're doing tonight is actually part of Islam. To have discourse, to debate, to discuss.

Islam does not demand a forceful submission, as you may have heard in the media. Actually, it calls for an intellectual discussion and debate and discourse and debate and discourse.

Have you not considered, speaking to those who have these other beliefs that the Quran takes issue with, is saying, so I say to you as I read the

Quran, say, Have you considered what you call upon besides Allah? Show me what they have created of the earth or have they a share in the heavens?

Bring me a book before this or traces of knowledge if you are truthful. The issue of the theological issues.

Because you see, when you make or claim that a man is

God, many issues arise from this. You see, for example, on the flyer for the debate, nothing personal, but on the flyer, the title of the debate is there and then on the top you see the pictures of a man's feet walking upon the water.

What's the implication there? Other problems arise.

Well, you look at his feet and they have this particular color to them. You say, oh, is God a white man? The black man may say, no,

I want God to be a black man. The Asian man may say, I want God to be an Asian man. Why is it acceptable for God to be this color or that color?

Whereas in Islam, God is not like us. He is not one of us. You know that song, God is one of us, right?

God is one of us, and he becomes the dominant people of the earth and he claims that, no, this man is the God who looks like us. And so Islam wants you to concentrate on God alone.

And so let us go into the subject about Jesus. Is he indeed God Almighty the most high?

You heard that the New Testament is clear on this issue. However, I beg to differ.

Now, when you are discussing about someone that the strongest arguments in favor or in contradiction to that argument is what the person him or herself says for example when

Obama got elected we heard many people making charges that he wasn't born here that he was a

Muslim things like that however Obama himself never said any of these things

Obama himself never claimed that he was a Muslim so the Tea Party can say this or that but what is the strongest argument of course is what

Obama himself says that he's not a Muslim he's a Christian he goes to church etc and so we want to take that same position here with looking at the issue of Jesus being

God Almighty now of course when we look at what others say about him the only way their claims about the person can be strong is if they are consistent with what the person himself says that is the only way what other people say can be can be taken as a strong evidence if they agree with what the person himself says so let us take a look and see what does

Jesus say about himself well here we see in John chapter 17 verse 3 this is allegedly the words of Jesus and it is said that he says speaking to God he's supposed to be speaking to God which he's supposed to be

God himself and I'm not dividing I'm aware of modalism and the different heresies out there so I'm keeping in mind what

Christians tell me about the context that the three persons are co -equal and co -eternal and that all three of these persons are the one

God so I have that in mind I understand that so he is talking and he says this is like eternal that they might know you the only true

God and Jesus the Messiah the anointed one of God whom you have now again

I'm keeping in mind the Christian doctrine of the Trinity that the three are equal Jesus is as much

God as the father is essential but it's not three gods I understand that it's not three gods he is one of the person that he makes up the same one

God now why is he speaking like this why is he speaking to this person this other person and saying that you are the he is that we are the only true

God he said you are the only true God and who am I I'm Jesus the anointed one the

Messiah the one who is anointed of God whom you he says have sent again in John chapter 20 verse 17 here

Jesus sends a message to his followers Jesus said unto her speaking to Mary Magdalene touch me not for I am not yet ascended to my father but go to my brethren and my father and your father to my

God and your God again I'm keeping the Trinity in mind he's supposed to be called equally supposed to be called eternal he's one of the persons and he is just as much

God as the father in the spirit but it's not three gods one God I got it I understand then why is he speaking like this why is he saying that if he is

God himself why is he saying that I have a God notice and he says his God is your

God so not only is he the God of the disciples but since you will follow us those of you who are followers of Jesus he's saying he's your

God too not that he is your God but that you along with Jesus have the same

God so you and Jesus your God is other than Jesus he's my God and you're gonna say that I'm your

God he said no he's my God and he's your God too you see so clearly if he's

God Almighty the most high he would not speak like this because Yahweh never talks of like this

Yahweh never speaks of himself having a God Yahweh never says to the children of Israel that you know he is that he's with them and that they have a

God in and their God and here's the God of Yahweh is also the God of the children of Israel no Yahweh makes it clear that he is the

God of the children of Israel not that he has a God along with them but Jesus here says that my

God is your God we see further here a very clear argument makes it clear in John chapter 8 verse 40 we want to know who

Jesus is well he tells you let these are alleged words of Jesus he says in John 8 40 but now that you seek to kill me a man now this is the word that's used here is anthropo or anthropos it's not it doesn't mean man of the male gender this word actually means a human being as you look for example in vines expiratory expository dictionary of the

New Testament says anthropo is used generally of a human being male or female without reference to sex or nationality it is distinction from God this word means a complete full human being not

God not fully God and fully man no this word is only used of one who is a complete full human being as it says here it's a distinction from God so the writer of John has

Jesus declaring that he is a man I he's a human being and he uses the word that explains himself as one who is completely human not man and God this word won't allow for you to say oh yeah he's man 100 % man and 100 %

God no here this word is used to distinguishes a person from God and so it has

Jesus saying that you seek to kill me a man that has told you the truth and notice here that I heard from God once again the

Trinity in mind co -equal co -eternal he's just as much God as the others then why is he saying that he heard the truth from God if he is

God Almighty isn't God the source of the truth isn't

God the originator of the truth so God doesn't have to hear the truth from anyone because he is

God but here it is said to say that Jesus says that he heard the truth from God now please take that into consideration take that in serious consideration he's a man a human being who has told you the truth nothing that he brought for himself not that originates with him but that he heard from God other than himself clearly

God is other than Jesus he heard the truth from God and again keep that word in mind anthropos anthropos again a human being this is the word that is useful a human being and again it is clear that this word makes a distinction from God if the writer of John did not want you to use it should have not have used that word because this word takes and negates any idea of man and God together fully manfully

God together and then we can take a look and see what have others said about Jesus now again as I said the words of others are only strong if they back up with the person himself said so we looked a little bit at what

Jesus himself was to say by the way before I go to that let me make something clear to you too we talked about anthropos and how

Jesus referred to himself as a human being I want you to take note that we go back to the Old Testament or the

Hebrew Scriptures the Hebrew Scriptures tell us that God Yahweh he's not anthropos did you know that he says that he's not anthropos

Jesus says that I am anthropos but Yahweh says that I'm not anthropos for example in Hosea chapter 11 verse 9

Hosea chapter 11 verse 9 has the phrase with God says for I am God and not man that's the translation but in the

Septuagint which is the Greek version of it he makes it clear he's saying that I am not anthropos the same word that Jesus says that he is here

God says I'm not anthropos again in Numbers chapter 23 19 the same word

God is not anthropos we see in Ezekiel chapter 8 28 verse 2 that the

Prince of Tyrus is rebuked for claiming to be God because he is what he's anthropos he's just a mere man we see in Isaiah chapter 31 verse 3 that the

Egyptians are condemned it says the Egyptians they are they are they are anthropos and not God they are human beings they are not

God they are anthropos and not God but Jesus says I am anthropos how then can he be

God Almighty the most high if he is declaring that he is other than what Yahweh said he was not so again as I said we look at what others have said so for example what about Jesus those who seen him at the beginning those who were the very first not what things develop later on with the church but what your

Bible says what I would take as to be the very first followers what did they when they saw Jesus perform miracles when they heard him speak what did they say your scripture says for example in Matthew chapter 21 verse 11 that the crowds answered and they said this is

Jesus the prophet not the God Jesus the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee in Matthew chapter 21 verse 46 it says they looked for a way to arrest him but they were afraid of the crowds because the people held that he was a

God or God no they held that he was a prophet when people saw

Jesus performing miracles and things like this it says in Matthew chapter 9 verse 8 when the crowd saw this they were filled with awe and they praise

God who had given such authority to man so they saw Jesus performing a miracle they saw him and this example was when he had forgiven a man's sins and healed the person but they didn't say oh yes this man is

God they they marvel they praise God because God had given authority to a man

God gave the authority and in fact this is what Christians tell us Christians tell us that Jesus was given authority even if all authority was given to him if I go and get a job at Microsoft and Bill Gates gives me authority does that make me

Bill Gates no right somebody had to give me that authority Bill Gates had to give me the authority over Microsoft obviously

I didn't possess it from the beginning how then can I be the most high person in the company of Microsoft when it has to be given to me again for example in Luke chapter 24 verse 19 this is supposed to be after the alleged crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus when he's talking to his followers or some of those who follow him and they don't quite recognize him so he asked them about the things that they were speaking of now remember this is after all the events have taken place after he said all these things perform these miracles and yet look what they're still saying about him so he asked them what things are you speaking of Luke chapter 24 verse 19 and it says they said unto him the things concerning Jesus the

Nazarene who was a prophet mighty indeed and word before God and all the people not who was

God but who was a prophet mighty indeed and word before God and all the people we still see further after Jesus is not among his followers in Acts chapter 2 verse 22 what do we read again remember this is supposed to be after his speeches his miracles perform forgiving people's sins etc yet what we still read

Luke chapter excuse me Acts chapter 2 verse 22 ye men of Israel hear these words

Jesus of Nazareth a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders in signs which

God did by him in the midst of you even as you yourselves know now of course when we give this the

Christian response is that yeah yeah that's fine yeah we believe we believe in those things he's a man and they say that he's on these things take place because he supposedly humbles himself however we see that according to Jesus words that are list to be

Jesus words himself he did not humble himself for example in John chapter 12 verse 29

I'm just gonna be

John chapter 12 verse 49 these are again the words of Jesus he says for I have not spoken of myself but the father which sent me he gave me a commandment he was told what to say this wasn't a voluntary action he was told what to say he sent me he gave me a commandment what

I should say and how I should speak it not voluntarily he was made to come his father he said his father sent him he was given a commandment what to say the same thing we see in John chapter 8 42 this is in a response to the claim that well yeah he did those things because he humbled himself well no according that's somebody else saying that somebody else says that he was

God and he humbled himself but what does your scripture allegedly say that he said in John 8 42 he says if God were your father you would love me for I proceeded forth and came from God but I did not come of myself but he sent me

I did not come of myself right the response is that he humbled himself

Philippians chapter 2 verse 5 right he humbled himself he took it upon himself but here

Jesus says no I did not come of myself he sent me he told me what to say he gave me a commandment he is the one who sent me as opposed to him taking it upon himself so from what we have heard is this the language of one who appears to be

God Almighty the most high admitting that he has a God admitting that the

God of himself is also the God of his followers how can this be

God Almighty admitting that he has a God how many of you would really accept that that God says yeah

I'm God but I have a God yeah and my God is your God this is not the speech of one who appears or is the most high the most high

God now somebody you know a lesser God sure but that's not the Christian belief

Christian belief is that as you know he is a member of the Trinity he is co -eternal he's co -equal all of them all the all the persons are co -equal and all of them together all the one

God but yet he's talking about if I was to accept that say okay he is the one

God then why is he speaking about is he talking about another God not misunderstanding say okay

I got it he's supposed to be God I take that then why is he talking about somebody else's

God then shouldn't he be referring to himself why is he saying that this other one he heard the truth from why is he saying that this one is my

God and this one is your God if he himself is supposed to be that very God himself with ten minute rebuttals so we're gonna welcome

James White to come and give that well the

Unitarians are in the house so we can start talking about the assumptions of Unitarianism let's let's look at what

Shadib just did and and see why we just simply can't follow him here and and see if we can't make some progress so first of all

Shadib took a number of texts and he ignored the context which they were found I will not do it with the

Quran when I look at the Quran I want to know what the context is I want to deal with it within the context of the author and what he intended we have for example

John 17 3 given to us one sentence later Jesus says glorify me with the glory which I had with you in your presence father before the world was and yet that's ignored looking at John 17 3 you can't do that to a text and honestly handle it you have to allow the text to speak and to speak fully and so anyone who goes

John 17 3 and then makes the application Shadid is is assuming that there is no such thing as the incarnation which

John started his gospel in in the beginning is the word with God word was God John 114 the word became flesh so the author is intending you to read the rest of it in the light of that assertion

Shadid rejects that and then chops up the rest of it is up here's the verse that doesn't fit with your theory because you're cutting into pieces

I can do that with surah 5 you do it a surah 2 it'd be easy to do but you never get anywhere when you ignore the original authorial intent of the writings themselves same thing in John 2017

Jesus says my God and your God we only believe in one God what other God did he talking about Jesus as the incarnate man worships the father he is the perfect what he expected to be an atheist

I mean seriously and and 11 verses later Thomas says my

Lord and my God what does Jesus do oh you shouldn't do that no Jesus response is because you've seen me have you believed blessed are those who have you not seeing believe

Jesus blesses his confession as a confession of faith that's only 11 verses later if you interpret verse 17 in a way it's contradictory to what verse 28 tells you you're not listening to the text and that's what's going on this evening and nowhere is this more clearly seen than in Shadid's dependence his dependence all the time

I've listened to a number of his debates on John 840 if you just read the Gospel of John even people like Bart Ehrman who is a critic of Christianity has always said

John preaches the deity of Christ he can see it the only reason the

Muslim can't see it is because of the Quran not the interpretation of the Gospel of John itself in John 840 listen to what

Jesus says he's already said unless you believe that I am you'll die in your sins but as it is you're seeking to kill me a man and he says see a man means you can't be

God assuming the incarnation cannot take place there is nothing the term on for a boss that decries and denies the possibility of the incarnation absolutely positively nothing he says well but God says

I am not man was a love of nine numbers 2319 of course the Gospels not the men who become gods but that God became a man not that he's eternally been a man the word became flesh at a point in time it is not not

God's eternal nature to be man he's the creator of man but he is so powerful and he is so great but if he chooses to enter into his own creation he can do so and he did so out of his great love for you and me that is the

Christian message I teach this language you show me or on the repose denies the incarnation it is not there and listen what it says they says a man was told the truth which

I heard from God is to see God doesn't need to hear anything from God Jesus is the incarnate one and in John chapter 5 makes so plain the

Jews had recognized Jesus claims to deity and they wanted to kill him because he called God his own father making himself equal to God but she doesn't believe ever said that because he was a mere prophet never called

Jesus God I called God the father and so but what really happened was Jesus did call

God his own father making himself equal with God and the rest of John chapter 5 is all about Jesus saying look

I'm not some separate deity out there running renegade doing my thing there is perfect unity between me and the father

I am doing what the father sent me to do and I'm speaking the words the father sent me to speak absolute perfect unity that's why we can trust that Jesus represents the father perfectly so when we see the

Jesus we know what the father's like if he was doing his own things we would not be able to trust the representation we see of the father in Jesus is trustworthy and so there's perfect unity between the two so in John chapter 5

I speak the words that have been commanded I do nothing from myself from myself in the

Greek up and not to from myself I don't do anything by myself separate from the father same thing in John 840 in 842 he said notice it says

I proceeded forth and come for God if I have not even come my own initiative saying that's contradictory no it is not not even close because what

Jesus is saying there I do not do anything separate from the father he still does it voluntarily but I do nothing separate from the father is that I'm doing my thing over there perfect unity it is clearly

John's intention to communicate that if we cut John's materials up that's our fault not not not

John's fault and so you have the assumption on the Muslims part there can be no incarnation and you have the assumption of Unitarianism and then you read these assumptions in the

New Testament cut up into pieces and that's what you have that's not how we move forward in understanding each other's scriptures as I said we had numbers 23 19 who's a 11 9 so excited and it says

I'm glad not man I'm not an anthropos that's exactly right isn't it interesting he didn't tell you the Greek Septuagint of was a 11 9 it says a go

I mean I am the very same term that Jesus used himself in a 58 13 19 and so on so forth is used there in the vocation of God and again we do not believe that God as to his eternal nature is a man but we do believe that as the creator he had the power to take on a perfect human nature so as to live as a perfect man and give his life as a ransom for many that is a consistent testimony of the

New Testament then we had another argument that I hope you're able to see it just simply isn't about argument

I could ask should be do you believe that Muhammad was a man and he would say yes I say do you believe that he was also a prophet yes so you can be more than one thing and yet we had a number of times where well look here the passages that people thought

Jesus was a prophet yes all Christians believe Jesus is a prophet and we believe

Jesus is a man and we believe Jesus the Lamb of God we believe Jesus was our high priest we believe Jesus was a king

Jesus was a lot of things and being any of those does not keep him from being the son of God and being identified as Yahweh and being identified as God God Jesus is a whole lot bigger than some people would like to allow him to be and so to find well he talks of the disciples on the road to Emmaus they they thought he was a prophet yes they did think he was a prophet the

Holy Spirit had not yet come the full revelation of who Jesus Christ would be would not come until the

Spirit of God even Jesus later in that chapter had to open the disciples minds to understand the scriptures and their testimony to him so yes there are all sorts of passages where Jesus identifies a prophet or a man none of that has any relevance to the subject because the

Doctrine the Trinity says Jesus was a prophet and he was a man and he was high priest and he was all these other things that's not an argument against what we are being told we were told well authority was given to Jesus why because he's the servant he is and he is humbled himself in chapter 2 he is entered into human existence and as such he's even made himself depend upon the

Spirit of God so he can be our example he can be the one that guides us and gives us direction as to how we are to live our lives he is the perfect man that does not change again if you just want to ignore everything that I said then you could try to make this kind of interpretation but you see to handle the

New Testament right you have to take everything that I presented and then everything that should be presented and amazingly when you read it all in context and you allow the authors to define their own intentions guess what it leads you to believe the

Doctrine of the Trinity and so when we ask the question that is being asked this evening is

Jesus God Almighty he's not the father he became incarnate and he behaved properly and in accordance with what it meant to be the incarnate one the one that was prophesied the one was prophesied in Isaiah chapter 9 tell us who that was what was that prophecy about there's no question that prophecy existed long before the days of Jesus who is this son that would be given who was this child that would be born interestingly enough the

Hebrew root there is Yelet the very same Arabic word that is used in surah 112 and yelling while a mule and he began a thought nor is begotten yet Isaiah had said to us a child will be born who was that child who was held to bore mighty

God Prince of Pete that everlasting father which means that the father returned to the crater return to Colossians chapter 1 who was when we allow the

New Testament to speak for itself we discover that God didn't just send somebody to tell us about his love he came and proved it on a cross thank you very much okay so see it sounds wonderful it sounds preachy and then you clap but you don't you're still you're letting yourself be pushed over and not paying attention to the evidence that was presented so he says that I went after reading

John chapter 17 verse that a few verses later I ignore where Jesus says to glorify me actually no

I'm aware of those verses that doesn't change anything because in John chapter 17 verse 22 that same glory that same honor that Jesus asked

God to give him he gives it to the disciples does that make the disciples God in John chapter 17 verse 22 same chapter what does he say here so that same glory they asked

God to give him he now passes that on to the disciples in John 17 22 he says the glory which you gave me when he just asked for in John chapter in verse 5 right he wanted for himself now he says the boy would you have given me

I have given to them that they may be one even as we are one so I'm not ignoring anything and again he says that what should the incarnate man be an atheist no if the incarnate man is

God himself he should be acting like he's God not a man praying to God not a man declaring that God is greater than him why is he talking like that if he's the incarnate man right he's the incarnate

God right there standing right there so why is the incarnate God who's standing right there talking about I heard the truth from God my

God is your God no I don't expect him to be an atheist I expect him to be God I expect him to talk like he's

God standing right there that's what I expect not an atheist I expect him to speak like there he is he's the most high

God standing right there and I want to speak like that talk like that because why he's supposed to be God the

Almighty himself I don't expect him to say well yeah I'm God but you know I got my

God and my God is your God and yeah I need some help what you need help you're God you need help you have to hear the truth but you're

God you're supposed to be the originator of the truth you're the source of the truth what do you mean you heard the truth so yes

I am that's exactly why I'm saying what I'm saying because I'm saying okay the Christians tell me that he's God incarnate as it says the fullness not part of it not 50 % not a portion the fullness of God is in right there in him okay all right

I see him right the fullness of God of him is in him right there but he's talking about somebody else's his

God he's saying that he uses the word for you that he's a man oh man and look every definition

I've looked at my child looked up strong I'm looking at all these different sources references for the word ethical and I find nothing other than that it means a human being it makes a distinction between human beings and animals it makes a distinction between human beings and God I find no other no other allowance for that word he says that Jesus being the incarnate one so is the right that I'm not allowed for that so once again as I said

I am allowed if I'm saying I okay I'll take it what you tell me he's the incarnate one he's God right there he's saying that he heard the truth come on people be honest with yourself you know

God doesn't hear the truth from anyone you know God's not supposed to say I'm hearing the truth he is the truth he's the source of the truth yes is he not he uses it goes to the reference where the

Jews love the Jews that they understood no no sir read through your scripture many times Jesus is on the

Jews case because they don't understand what he's saying many times he rebukes them because they do not understand what he's saying sometimes he even rebukes his disciples because they don't even understand what he's saying no sir why don't you take the word of the enemies of Christ as a proof against him they don't they didn't even when he made that claim about being equal to God when he said oh you saying

God is your father by the way in what culture when you say that God is your father that make you equal to God what culture the culture is that but you saying that you know that God is your father that that makes you equal my father's right there

I'm the son of my father is anybody gonna say oh you're claiming to be your father what culture what language is that when you claim somebody's your father that people that that you're claiming to be equal to your father and in fact in that very text

Jesus refutes that because he tells them and reminds them how in the previous scriptures it said those to whom the scripture came they were called

God's and all he's saying is that he's the son of God son of God not that he is

God but son of God if I tell you that I'm the son of Obama would any of you right now run to call the

FBI and say oh we got a man in here he claims to be the president United States sedition betrayal come get him

FBI no he was the other guys playing to be Obama's son that doesn't mean I'm claiming to be the president of the United States so this is strange here getting about the assuming no incarnation as I said no

I'm accepting what you tell me I'm accepting that he is the incarnate God right there however it's just not adding up he's not talking like he's

God incarnate Yahweh never talks like that Yahweh never matter your Bible tells you that Yahweh is jealous of this idea your scripture say that Yahweh is jealous that you should take

God before him he's very jealous Exodus 34 14 do not worship any other

God for the Lord whose name is jealous is a jealous God now yeah now Yahweh is admitting that he has a

God now he's not afraid to admit that he has a God he's not admitted made that somebody's greater than him did you know that in John chapter 9 verse 9 there's a man who said the very same thing you go

I mean now your translator is to cover up and keep you from knowing this they put it that the man says

I am he but when you actually look at the Greek the man in John chapter 9 he says ego I mean just the same ego

I mean only but that's not even what God said and said to it it is that God said ego I may hold on not just ego

I mean Jesus never says ego I may hold on and in fact the scriptures that follow that show that Jesus that they are they misunderstood what he said why because it says that they pick up rocks to stone him what does

Jesus do he hides himself from them and he escapes if I'm God I'll stand there pick up the rocks

I'll do like the matrix you're about to throw rocks I'll put my hands up and I'll freeze the rocks in the air I'm not afraid of your rocks

I'm God come on pick him up and throw him at me I'll just stand like Neo and freeze the rocks instead it says he hides up and he escapes and runs away from them is that God of course not and as I said the very in the very next chapter chapter 9 verse 9 a man who the people were talking about the man comes he says yes

I am that's what he really says I even say I am he he says I am why did your translators translate his words as I am he but for Jesus they made it say

I am of course they want to try to claim this that Jesus is claiming to be the I am obviously he was not he just told him in 840 that he wasn't that I am he just said

I'm a man Yahweh is not a man he just said I heard the truth from God Yahweh doesn't hear the truth from anyone so of course he wasn't saying that he was that great

I am he just told him in a few verses ahead that I'm a man you're trying to kill me a man a human being all

Christians believe Jesus was a prophet well actually you really don't if you believe that he's God then you don't believe he's a prophet not

God a prophet is one that is sent by God so God is a prophet of himself of course not so you really do say that you believe that he's

God Almighty then the real the reality I'm saying the reality is that you really don't believe he's a prophet you believe he's

God actually the humble himself claim I responded to that I showed you that Jesus says the opposite your scripture shows that Jesus says the opposite that he says no that I did not come of myself he was made to come he was told what to say he was told what to do that's not humbling that's not taking it upon yourself that's somebody who has more authority than you telling you where to go and telling you what to say he said that you read it all in context well

I mean that's the thing you really can't read it all in context because the book is made up comprised of different authors they weren't like it's not like they all got together said come on let's work on the book together and they wrote it you know in concert with one another the book was written by various people with different ideas many of these three persons are unknown so we don't know if in fact they were monotheistic

Jews or not so when you say read it all in context it cannot be read in context that's why you have verses that say one thing and another that's why the

Muslim positions that we see contradictions here that's our position on it the

Isaiah 9 6 claim Isaiah 9 6 I'm sorry this is just a Christian claim trying to impose their ideas upon the

Jewish text let's look at Isaiah 9 6 and what does it say Isaiah 9 6 says for unto us a child is born for unto us a son is given the government shall be on his shoulders number one

Jesus had no government on his shoulders at Jesus time the Romans were in power he had no government on his shoulders he says the name should be called wonderful counselor the mighty

God how is he the mighty God he just says I'm a man he says that the father is greater than him he says

I have a God how are you the mighty God if you have a God these are just simple ideas that you just have to follow the everlasting father no

Jesus is the son right that's the Christian creed okay thank you

I'm sure both speakers appreciate your response but if you could keep your responses till after they finish that would be appreciated we're going to receive now the second round of rebuttals this is a five minute session for each one last chance to come first she just told us that well

Jesus would act like God so I guess we have this idea that instead of coming as the servant of God instead of coming as an example to you and I instead of coming in weakness of the flesh so that he might give his life of ransom for many instead of fulfilling all the prophecies that were about him

Jesus should come down he should glow and fire thunderbolts at people and do matrix stuff there you go that's utterly unbiblical and completely ignores everything the

Old Testament told us about the coming Messiah I'm sorry but that is not even worthy of our attention it is really really not the direction we need to be going first read the chapter one tells us that the preaching the cross is foolishness to them who are perishing and the idea of somebody coming down who's able to wipe out armies and and do all sorts of magic tricks and things like that that is completely opposite of what the

New Testament teaches us God's purpose was in the coming of Jesus Christ then we were just told that Bible translators and I've worked as a consultant on American on a major American translation that we cover up John 9 9 if you had looked at what

I made my presentation when I gave all the I am text what did the I am he what does it say

John 9 9 I am he perfectly consistent no cover up please don't accuse us of doing things we didn't do the fact of the matter is that when the blind man uses ego

I mean the predicate is clearly understood as that I am the blind man that you are today that they're talking about if the predicate is found as it is in John 8 58 in the

Old Testament text as it is an 8 24 13 19 and in John 18 5 through 6 that's why it's understood as being a reference to deity it's a simple proper handling of the text no cover -up that is an inappropriate assertion we had

John 17 22 cited to us the disciples were given glory I don't know what that has to do with what I said which you need to read

John 17 3 and John 17 5 as being two sentences that are right next to each other but yes the disciples are given we didn't eternally exist in the presence of the

Father Glorious did we Jesus did so we are united with him amazing thing if you're in Christ you're seated in the heavenly places in Christ that's not an argument against the

Trinity is it if you read all the New Testament if you cut the New Testament to pieces well it's really easy my challenge to Shadi which he did not fulfill is show me one like the lexical source for anthropos for anybody and Strong's and vines are not meaningful scholarly lexical sources we're talking about be daddy we're talking about flow

Anita we're talking about something like that show me where any of these meaningful scholarly sources say that anthropos means

God cannot enter into human existence it's not there he's assuming it but it's not there it is a misuse of the

Greek term in John 5 he says you're green with the enemies of Jesus that he was making himself equal with God well actually the relationship is the assertion is that he has a unique relationship with the father he's not just a son of God he is the son of God and this is in the book that describes him as monogamous the unique son of God you can't just take

John and pull verses out and ignore that elsewhere John talks about Jesus as the monogamous we are the unique son and that's what they understood you just can't do that that's an abuse of the text then then we were told that we don't believe

Jesus was a prophet again this assumes this this minimized

Jesus what we believe is God you can't be a prophet God shows the second person the

Trinity chose to enter into human flesh to accomplish certain redemptive facts and certain redemptive acts and part of his function is to Frank's example be a high priest he offers himself he is

King he is it is said that Jesus had no government what's the kingdom of God when he's the king the book of Revelation says he rules the nations with a rod of iron please it is very very very clear what is being said in those texts and so there's so much more that I would love to get to simply don't have the time to refute each point but as you can see if you allow the text to speak for itself the reputation is found in just allowing the words to function and what have we seen the only reason that should be to say no

Jesus is not God Almighty is because he has a certain idea of what that must mean which assumes you cannot have incarnation it assumes

Unitarianism and it is not derived from an accurate knowledge of the text of the

New Testament in any way shape or form thank you very much for okay well again we all have certain beliefs about God that we all would agree upon such as God being the most high the all -powerful one the all -knowing one these are things that I don't have to quote

I would hope I would have to quote a scripture for you to understand that we as people who believe in God or these are concepts of God and monotheistic

God that we agree upon this he has these all -powerful he's Almighty he can't be defeated he doesn't get weak he doesn't need to learn things things of this nature we all agree upon these things so the mockery is uncalled for because yes

I expect God to be like that I expect God to be all -powerful I expect him to know everything

I expect him to declare very clearly that he is the most high and there's nobody else that's what

Yahweh does Allah says that in the Qur 'an but Jesus is not talking yes I do expect him to talk like that and so should you if you believe that Jesus that man whatever image you have but he has long hair blonde hair afro whatever you believe that that man is

God you should expect that of him as well even if he is incarnate because again the fullness is in him it doesn't say part of it it says the fullness is in him that means he should the foot the fullness of God is in him he should have or everything that God has all those powers that knowledge the wisdom but we see

Jesus does not display that why because clearly he is not the most high God I'm already giving you the words that make that clear and by the way let's finish on the

Isaiah 9 6 because it goes on right I mentioned about the everlasting father your doctrine teaches that Jesus is what the son in fact mr.

white just spoke about it the unique son of who of God how are you

God and the son of God at the same time I can understand it there's a family of God so you said well look you know this is

God I'm the son of God but I'm a God too but again that's not the Christian doctrine I don't want to misrepresent the

Christian doctrine is not that the Christian doctrine is that Jesus is himself God along with the other members not three gods is one

God but the three persons so why is he the son of God that if he's supposed to be fully

God himself how is how is he the son of God why do you use the term son of God then at the same time you turn around tell me that no he is

God that's our discussion is he God Almighty the most time but you're saying now you just spoke about the unique son of son of son of son of God a moment ago he is

God which is it son of God or is God himself you say

God chose to do this or do that again yes I'm accepting that but if you chose to do this with why is it is inconsistency of how he's speaking and acting and he needs to pray he needs help and he's telling people that there's one greater again

Yahweh doesn't talk like that these things are not being answered instead he's giving you what you want to hear and you clap and you smile and you laugh it sounds good but I'm trying to give you a serious argument because this is a serious thing that we need to be aware of and come to a definite decision about stop allowing yourself to be pushed over by nice words and things that are preachy and it sounds well we're talking about God here the most high you need to know who he is or who he is not because when it comes to the end this is when you meet your

Lord and you want to meet your Lord correctly he says I have a certain idea well you also have a certain idea you keep you you refuse the things that are being brought and try to harmonize these things because you want to try to hold to the

Christianity idea but if it was so clear we wouldn't have other denominations of Christians that say otherwise such as the

Unitarians and various other groups throughout the ages of Christianity who obviously did not come to the conclusion that you and the members of this church have so obviously it was not clear throughout the age that's why these things were discussed and debated and they had councils that up after council of the council and they fought over these things and people were declared heretics and that group was declared a heretic why because many of these ideas were brought up and people could read the scriptures same way and say well they see it this way and they see it that way and so once again be honest with yourselves we all understand and believe in these ideas about God look at the things that it is said that Jesus says that he's alleged to have said about himself and declared and you be honest with yourself and you know this is not the language or the actions of one who is supposed to be

God Almighty the most high God Almighty the most high is just that and he would never declare that there's one greater than him time all right let's give

James and should be round of applause okay as I stated earlier that we were going to receive a collection this collection is solely for our speakers and if you can express your appreciation that way as in all the hard labor that they've given in preparation for this debate and also for those of you that receive cards you can submit those cards in the plates as well and that way we can receive those over the break and we can have that later on during the time of the debate

I've just received word that our live stream is having some difficulty and those those folks are a few minutes behind us in fact they're

I think well over five minutes behind us so I think what we're going to have to do is just call that and stop the live stream in the in the gym there's only about 15 folks or so there we'll send our apologies to them because I don't want to hold back all of us just for the sake of about a dozen folks all the coffee is in there all the waters in there so let's receive the collection that'll give them maybe a few minutes to catch as much as they can and then