Is Jesus God Almighty? Part 1

Debate Format and Moderator Introductions

Well, good evening, everyone. It's great to see you this evening. My name is Doug McMaster's. I'm the pastor here at New High Park Baptist Church and also will be moderating this debate and on behalf of New High Park Baptist Church and should be and James who want to give you a warm welcome this evening.

Thank you for coming and being here with us. If there's room in. Where you're seated if you can try to move to the middle and then we get a couple more in there's this is Long Island. So I'm sure we have about 20 going to be coming in after we get started.

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There's a fire exit there. And of course, there's doors here and there and through the gym. Just in case we need that for any reason. We're gonna have a break this evening and there's some water stations around and also some coffee available.

We ask that if you do bring water you can bring water in here, but please don't bring any coffee in here. We just appreciate Any accidents do happen so water water doesn't stay. If as you came in you might have received a card we have a limited number of cards.

If you didn't get one, I'm sorry, but we gave away as many as we possibly could. There's going to be a time for questions To be answered. Of course, not every question is going to be able to be answered.

I think that just stands to reason but if you would please Feel free to write a question down. We'll be going through those during the break and answering those a little later in the debate. Right before we have a break we're going to have a collection receive a collection.

That all of that is going to go as an honorarium to our speakers. None of it's going to be kept by us at all. So please feel free to give so that they might Might receive I think a few recommendations for all the labor that they put in in order to be here this evening.

At the same time that also be a good time to put your questions In you submit your questions and so we can receive those. I think for the moment that that addresses some of the some of the logistical matters.

So let me just talk a bit about the debate. I want to mention three things very briefly first the necessity of this debate. Secondly to introduce our speakers and then third to give you an idea of what to expect and to give you that format.

You know increasingly in today's society engaging debate is being swept aside by two opposing forces. The first is pluralism. The idea that all religions are equally true and valid in their communication about the truth of God the world and salvation.

To a pluralist neither Islam nor Christianity can be seen as absolute and unique and the final way to God. They assert the validity validity of all religions, but they deny the Penality of all religions to speak ultimately about truth.

We don't agree with that. We believe there is truth to be known and This debate will bring that to bear. The second force is prejudice and There's a lot of prejudice in society today an unfavorable opinion forms beforehand without knowledge without thought or without reason.

That results in unreasonable attitudes and even hostility. So this is not only a time for truth to be known but also for education to be received by all of us. So that we might understand What the issues are?

So we engage this evening not sweeping our differences aside. But by bringing those differences together with their full force in order to ensure that truth has its voice. We believe here that the consequences of error are not merely temporal or societal but they are eternal.

As we face a holy God and so This evening the matter of this evening about the person of Jesus Christ is one of interest to us all and I believe is of eternal consequence to us all. Both Christianity and Islam Affirm the person of Jesus both afford Jesus a very high place and the difference lies in the understanding of his person and nature.

Who is Jesus? How you answer that question makes all the difference. Let me introduce our speakers. First is Shadid. Welcome Shadid. This is Shadid Lewis Originally from Long Island. I've recently discovered so welcome back.

It's good to have you here. Shadid is a member of the Muslim debate initiative and is the director of the US branch of the Muslim debate initiative. Which is formed of members from the Muslim community with experience in public speaking apologetics polemics research and community work.

Shadid also currently serves as president at the Hampton Mosque and Islamic Center in Virginia. He has his certification in comparative religion from the Islamic Research and Propagation Center. And has studied the sciences of the Quran at the American Open Islamic University in Fairfax, Virginia.

Let's give him a welcome. Shall we? James White welcome. James Is director of Alpha Omega Ministries Christian apologetics organization that's Based in Phoenix, Arizona, and he told me today. It's 95 degrees there.

Well, welcome to Long Island.

James is a professor having taught Greek systematic theology and various topics in the field of apologetics has authored several books 24 books including the King James only controversy the Forgotten Trinity the Potter's freedom and the God who justifies.

He is a debater and has engaged in more than 140 moderated public debates around the world on issues of Roman Catholicism Islam Jehovah's Witnesses Mormonism and several well-known nationally and universally known critics.

Recent years. He's also debated in Various mosques most recently in South Africa and one in London. He's the elder of Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church, and he's married to Kelly for more than 32 years.

He doesn't look like that's possible, but he has been. And he has two children and one grandchild Clementine. So, let me give you an idea of what to expect this evening. We're going to begin with two opening statements of 20 minutes each and James White is going to go first and That's going to be followed by two 10-minute rebuttals and then subsequent to that two five-minute second rebuttals and That will then lead us into our time for the collection the submission of the questions and for us to take a break.

After we come back from the break Both of our speakers will engage in cross-examination where James White will be asking Shadid questions for 10 minutes and Then Shadid will be asking James questions for 10 minutes and Then we'll open it up soon to submitted audience questions and the time frame for that will be determined on what the evenings looking like and then each speaker will have an opportunity to provide seven minute closing remarks and It's customary for the first to go last and so James since he's starting this evening.

We'll be finishing it off and Shadid will be the first to speak to that. So without further ado let's welcome James White and.

James White on the Deity of Christ in the New Testament

Open up our debate this evening. It's an honor to be with you this evening and.

Unfortunately, we have a lot to talk about in a very very short period of time so I hope you will get a deep seat in the saddle as we say out out west and Listen very closely because I think it's an extremely important subject.

Our two communities need to be able to communicate with one another to talk with one another and it is our honor this evening to be able to engage in this kind of debate. I'm going to try to get my my presentation going up there, but Unfortunately, I'm clicking and it's not clicking.

So that's not a that's not a good thing at all. There we go. Let's let's see now and it's green and I'm gonna have to go next slide, please. Because the clicker is not working that's Unfortunate. I'll keep trying to get it to work eventually.

But anyways in the Islamic Christian conflict there really is no middle ground of compromise. The Christian is one who believes with the Apostle Thomas that Jesus is our Lord and our God as he said in John 2028 and with the early church confesses that he is our great God and Savior as we read in Titus chapter 2 verse 13 next one, please and For the Muslim the question is answered by the overriding authority of the Quran and surah 112 3 a loss.

According to that text in the Quran Allah beginneth not nor is he begotten when yellin while I'm yielded Christ Jesus the Son of Mary was no more than an apostle of Allah. We are told in surah 4 171. Please when I do that was let's go.

And then we have a in surah chapter 9 the Jews called Uzar a son of Allah and the Christians called Christ the son of Allah that is a saying from their mouth in this. They but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say Allah.

Allah's curse be upon them how they are deluded away from the truth. They take their priests and their anchorites to be their Lords and derogation of Allah and they take as their Lord Christ the Son of Mary yet.

They were commanded to worship but one Allah. There is no God, but he praise and glory to him far as he from having the partners. They associate with him that is from surah 9 in the Quran very very strong strong words.

That we have presented there in regards to what we as Christians the people of the book are supposed to believe. Even the theorem on the early commentators on the Quran the top seer literature commented on these eyes and said Allah the Exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists disbelieving Jews and Christians who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against the law of the exalted.

As for the Misguidance of Christians over ESA it is obvious. This is why Allah declared both groups to be liars. That's from tip the top seer to the catheter. And this is the reason given for fighting against Christians to ensure their continued human humiliation degradation and disgrace and so that is a Theological issue on the part of the Quran is what Christians believe about who Jesus is.

So we have to discuss this we have to deal with this issue. It's very very Important. Is Jesus God Almighty. Well, the Christian answer this question is specific. It is biblical and it is balanced. But it is likewise not understood by most Muslims because it was not understood by the author of the Quran itself.

Muslims following the Quran assume Unitarianism and read Unitarianism into their reading the Christian scriptures. They assume that there is only one person of God and they just read that into the reading of the New Testament.

Even when the New Testament goes against that kind of understanding. Let's have a definition of what we're talking about this evening. And I would like to say the Muslims get to define what Islam is. The Christians get to define what Christianity is we don't get to define that what the other one believes.

What is the doctrine of the Trinity within the one being that is God there exists eternally three co-equal and co-eternal? Persons namely the Father the Son the Holy Spirit being and person are two different things.

We are all human beings, but we're all different persons. Iraq has been but it has no personality. We have limited finite being but we are each individual persons. Being in person is not the same thing.

And if you're going to insist that they are then I'm going to have to ask you to explain Why you can insult Iraq all day and it won't get offended at you. Because if you're saying the same thing, then you're gonna have to explain how that works.

No, but we are saying we are not saying that Jesus is the father we are not saying Jesus is the spirit. This is a common misunderstanding of many people. Any and all demonstrations this evening that the father is other than the son that the father and son are distinguished, etc.

Utterly irrelevant to the Christian teaching of the Trinity since the Trinity specifically asserts these very truths. Keep that in mind. Then how can the Christians say Jesus is God Almighty?

Well.

First of all the Bible quotes Jesus saying that the best reading of Revelation 1 8 is I am the Alpha and Omega says the Lord God who is and who was and it was to become the Almighty. And in the context those words are most probably spoken by Jesus himself.

And so if they are very clearly he is identifying himself in that fashion in Revelation 1 8. But likewise I would assert that Jesus shares the one being that is God shown in the use of the term Yahweh that is the Hebrew term for Yahweh on the screen is called the tetragrammaton.

It is the very name of God in the Old Testament to use thousands of times of God there and the New Testament writers Associate that name with the father the son and the spirit. So think about this argument.

There is only one being of God. We are absolute monotheists I believe was a 11 9 23 19 all those other texts. I've debated many Mormons on this subject. We believe there is only one God. The name by which this God revealed himself in ancient days was Yahweh.

The father is identified as Yahweh because Yahweh lays our sins upon the Messiah. For example, the spirit is the spirit of Yahweh and the son is specifically identified as Yahweh by the Christian scriptures.

Let me give you a couple of texts in the biblical portion here in a moment that demonstrate that that is the case. So if you have one being of God Yahweh and you have three persons of distinguished from one another and yet they're all sharing that One name.

This is why the scriptures forced Christians to the doctrine of the Trinity. It's not something that is made up and then play with the scriptures to make it fit. This is looking at the evidence of the scriptures themselves and coming to the conclusion from that.

All right.

Now Jesus is God Almighty since Jesus is the incarnation of the second person of the Trinity The eternal law. God's the one who shared the glory of the father in eternity past according to John 17 5. This does not make us polytheists nor does it confuse the father and the son as long as we allow all of the New Testament To speak and that will be the real issue this evening whether we will allow that to happen.

Now think about just some of the phraseology of the New Testament of Jesus. He's called the Lamb of God. He is called the Son of God. He's called the first and the last The Word of God the risen Lord the creator of all worshiped by men and angels and all of creation.

He is the object of prayer in John 14. The disciples are told to pray to him. He is called the Alpha and Omega the beginning of the end all creation bows to him. That's not all all the fullness of deity that which makes God.

God dwells in him bodily all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge Are hidden in him. He is called the great I am every thought is to be taken captive to his obedience. He is called our great God and Savior.

He's called the eternally blessed God. The early church praise and sufferers in his name Emmanuel God with us is the term that's used of him. He is called El Gabor and Isaiah 9 6 the mighty God same word used of in Isaiah 10 21 of Yahweh himself Lord God creator Savior Lamb of God risen and coming king and kings and Lord of lords.

There really isn't any question my friends what the Bible teaches about who Jesus Christ is. You have to deny biblical authority. You have to tear the Bible into shreds to not see what the teaching of the New Testament is in regards to Jesus Christ is and so the question this evening is very clearly answered by the biblical evidence itself.

But I haven't gone through the text and since I have to prove it. Let's take a look at those particular texts. The real issue this evening when we think about it is Islamic denials. The deity of Christ are not generally biblically based.

They're due to the anachronistic acceptance of the claims of a 7th century text the Quran written by man without any direct Access to the Bible itself the Bible hadn't even been translated into Arabic yet.

It wouldn't be for another 200 some odd years of the time that he was alive. And so while the New Testament by its first century, and I argue eyewitness testimony to the words actions and teachings of Jesus.

But Quran is historically speaking irrelevant to any inquiry into Jesus's life and ministry. Historically there is no connection. It's 600 years removed from the time of Jesus. We'll see this evening if we are consistent in our handling of that kind of historical information in comparison to the New Testament.

Now how do we know about the deity of Christ. Three quick lines of evidence. One it is demonstrated by the Identification of Jesus with the word to us which means God he is called God. Secondly is demonstrated by the identification of Jesus as Yahweh Yahweh the Lord.

And thirdly demonstrated by ascribing to Jesus the prerogatives Rights and powers of the Creator himself. Now you have to be very brief. I only have about nine minutes left, and so I need to be quick with this.

But I want to give you this this information as a basis of our conversation. Jesus as God for example in Isaiah 9 6 he is the prophetically described as El Gabor the mighty God in Titus 2 13 and 2nd Peter 1 1 in the original language.

We have what's called a Granville Sharp construction and in both those constructions Jesus described as our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Both the terms God and Savior are being applied to Jesus the Messiah and of course The Apostle Thomas when he sees Jesus risen from the dead Answers and says to Jesus all of these words my Lord and my God it wasn't my Lord my God.

That's impossible. They were all addressed to Jesus. That's what the original language specifically states each of these places the term God is being used of Jesus. John 1 1 describes the pre-incarnate word the logos is existing in eternal fellowship with the father and the word was Deity is an expressive translation of that last phrase.

In John 1 1 the word was as to his nature God he is truly deity not angelic or anything lesser. He is truly God. In Colossians 2 9 we have the phrase the fullness of deity. Play Roma taste they are they toss that which makes God God dwelling in Jesus Christ in his resurrected state.

Bodily, this is the assertion of the letter to the church at Colossi. The New Testament writers often quote Old Testament passages that are uniquely about Yahweh and apply these texts to Jesus. These are monotheistic Jews and that they're applying these texts to Jesus in Hebrews chapter 1 verses 10 through 12.

You have a quotation of Psalm 102 25 to 27. Which is about Yahweh as the unchanging creator and those words are applied in the incarnate Son Jesus Christ. Look at look at the words. Look, it says and you Lord laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning and the heavens are the work of your hands.

They will perish but you remain. They will all wear out like a garment like a robe. You will roll them up like a garment. They will be changed but you are the same and your years will have no end. That's quoted in chapter 1 from Psalm 102.

It originally was about the fact that Yahweh never changes and now it's being described of the Sun in Hebrews chapter 1 clearly the writer of the Hebrews identifies Jesus as Yahweh, but he's not the only one.

And likewise in John 12 41 the Apostle John having quoted from Isaiah's temple vision. Why is a a saw Jehovah sitting upon his throne lofty and lifted up where the prophet sees him there? He actually says that the one that Isaiah saw was Jesus.

Look at John 12 41 says Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and he spoke of him. If you ask Isaiah Isaiah, who did you see his response to be? I saw Yahweh. If you ask John who did Isaiah see his response is he saw Jesus.

And so you have the writer of the Hebrews you have John. Identifying Jesus as Yahweh in in arguable terms and. Both believe there is only one true God. What does that mean? Their faith was all about? Jesus that's greater for by him.

Colossians chapter 1 says for by him all things created both in the heavens and on the earth visible and invisible. Or thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities all things have been created through him and for him.

He is before all things and in him all things. Soonest again, they hold together they consist. That is a description of the creator himself and. These words are used of Jesus specifically to refute the early forms of Gnosticism that were coming into the church that viewed Jesus as a as a Demigod or a lesser a lesser being amongst the eons in the in the Gnostic Play Roma, which is a topic we may end up getting into.

I hope we don't have to but if we do we'll talk a little bit about Gnosticism later in the evening. Jesus also identified as the great I am. In the Gospel of John a number of times the phrase ego I me is used by Jesus in a specific way to identify himself with the same use that term in the Greek sepulchre.

It's found Isaiah 43. It's found the mind of prophets. It's used many times. There's another word for describing Yahweh. So for example in John 8 58 Jesus says to the Jews truly truly I say to you Couldn't have it up on genocide and go.

I mean before Abraham was I am and what do they do? They pick up stones to stone Jesus. Why they pick up stones stone Jesus. Because they know exactly what he's claiming. He just said that Abraham would rejoice to see his day.

He had already said in John 8 24 unless you believe that I am you will die in your sins. They know that he is blaspheming. Unless he is who he claims to be. And then in John 13 19 a tremendous text from now on I'm telling you before it comes to pass.

So when it does occur, you may believe that ego. I mean I am that's quoting directly to my Isaiah 43 10. Which is where Jehovah's Witnesses get their name by the way and in both places in the Old Testament Yahweh is saying I'm going to tell you what happens before it happens.

So when it happens you may believe that I am and Jesus is doing the same thing. Talking about Judas and quotes from that and tells his disciples when it happens. You will know that I am. Jesus knew his Old Testament.

He knew what he was quoting and he knew what he was applying to himself. He said them I am he and Judas also was betraying him. So John chapter 18 was standing with him. So when he said to them I am he they drew back and fell to the ground.

John 18 5 through 6 when the soldiers come To arrest Jesus and Jesus says ego. I me they fall back upon the ground. Please tell me why that happened and please don't say it's well. It's because they weren't accustomed to encountering such moral purity.

Yeah, it happens all the time soldiers run into moral purity and they fall over all the time. It's it's an amazing thing. No, that's not why it happened. Jesus was using a phrase and John is communicating to us the reality of who Jesus really was.

And that's why it's so important to see me my friends because what did Jesus say in John 8 24? Therefore I say to you that you will die in your sins for unless you believe that ego I me you will die in your sins.

I don't think dying in your sins is something you want to do and Jesus said unless you believe that I am you will die in your sins very very important the early church Was a singing church and one of their early hymns.

We have a fragment of it in Philippians chapter 2 verses 5 to 11. And I will close with this because there's one of the most beautiful texts in all the New Testament. Listen to what the Apostle Paul said to the Church of Philippi.

You must have the same mindset among yourselves. It was in Christ Jesus and here's where the hymn begins. Who although he eternally existed in the very form of God? Did not consider that equality he had with God the father something to be held on to at all costs.

But instead he made himself nothing but notice how he did this. Notice this was not done to him this he did voluntarily. He made himself nothing how by taking on the very form of a slave by being made in human likeness the.

Humiliation.

The Jesus endured was by taking on our frame our form our nature. God didn't cease being God the incarnation. God knows how to take on a human nature without ceasing to be God. Jesus was the God man. Perfectly God perfectly man didn't cease being God in any way.

And he made himself of no reputation by taking on the very form of slave. By being made in human likeness he became nothing by taking on that form and. Having entered into human existence he humbled himself.

By becoming obedient the point of death even the death one dies on a cross. Yes, the cross is the universal unquestioned historical reality of how Jesus Christ died. There is no one who denied that outside of Gnosticism and we can talk about that at a little later point.

Even the death one dies on the cross. Because of this God the Father exalted him to the highest place and bestowed on him the name which is above every name. So the name of the mentioned the exalted name of Jesus.

Everyone who is in heaven on earth and under the earth bows the knee and Every tongue confesses Jesus Christ is Kodiak's the very same term use of Yahweh in the Old Testament. All the glory of God the Father.

Notice the distinction. Jesus is exalted and yet. He's not confused with the father. His exaltation does not detract from the glory of the father. It adds to the glory of the father. And this is the primitive faith of the church.

Is this a later invention. No it is not. I don't have time. But there are a number of references. I have that I was going to give to you. In regards to the early church who believe this the point is the Testimony of the New Testament is explicit.

It is clear. We believe that Jesus Christ is God Almighty. He's not the father. He's not the spirit, but he's identified as Yahweh. That was the consistent testimony of the New Testament, and that is why Christians believe it to this day.

Thank you very much for your attention.

Shadid Lewis on Jesus as a Human Messenger, Not God

Okay, let's move to the audience to give this 20-minute presentation should be peace be unto you.

I begin in the name of Allah the most beneficent most merciful. By now most people should be aware that Islam if you don't know is the only non-christian faith that I'm aware of that as part of its belief accepts and believes in Jesus.

The question though is what do Muslims believe about Jesus and that question will be answered in tonight's debate. The subject matter is is Jesus God Almighty the most high. Of course in Islam as James White as dr. White mentioned that in Islam that answer is a clear no.

We read in the Quran chapter 5 or 75 it says the Messiah the Son of Mary was only a messenger and Other messengers had gone before him now. This is not a derogatory term to say he's only a messenger because the messenger who God selects is a very high Title to have because obviously we are not all called to be messengers of God.

So this is not a degrading or a put-down but is to say that in other words, he's a human being. He's not God. We read further in chapter 43 verse 59. It says speaking of Jesus He was not but a servant on whom we bestow favor and we made him an example to the children of Israel.

Now of course telling you is not enough and contrary to what you may have heard in the media that Islam demands Forced full submission is quite the contrary in the Quran chapter 16 verse 125 we read Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and goodly exhortation and have Disputations or debate with them in the best manner.

Surely your Lord knows best those who go astray from his path and he knows best those who follow the right way. So as you can see here in the Quran what we're doing tonight is actually part of Islam part of Islam.

To have discourse to debate to discuss Islam does not demand a forceful submission as you may have heard in the media actually, it calls for an intellectual discussion and debate and Discourse about these subject matters.

We're going to be different. In fact, the Quran goes further to say in chapter 46 verse 4 Have you not considered speaking to those who have these other beliefs that the Quran? Takes issue with the same.

So I say to you as I read the Quran saying have you considered what you call upon besides Allah? Show me what they have created on the earth or have they are shared in the heavens. Bring me a book before this or traces of knowledge if you are truthful.

And so this debate is really goes beyond just The issue of the theological issues because you see when you make or claim that a man is God. Many issues arise from this you see for example on our The flyer for the debate nothing personal but on the flyer.

The title of the debate is there and then on the top you see the pictures of a man's feet walking upon the water. What's the implication there that what that God is a man and then further problems arise?

Well, you look at his feet and they have this particular color to them. So is God a white man. The black man may say no. I want God to be a black man. The Asian man may say I want God to be an Asian man.

Why is it acceptable for God to be this color or that color whereas in Islam God is not like us. He is not one of us. You know that song God is one of us. All right, however. This issue is very serious because if someone can claim if some can claim a man to be God then surely some people from another culture can come up one day and become the dominant people of the earth and claim that no this Man is the God who looks like us and so Islam wants you to concentrate on God alone.

And so let us go into the subject about Jesus is he indeed God Almighty the most time. You heard that the New Testament is supposed is clear on this issue. However, I beg to differ.

Now.

When you are discussing about someone and claims about a person, I'm sure you would agree that the strongest arguments in favor or in Contradiction to that argument is what the person him or herself says, for example when Obama got elected.

We heard many people making charges that he wasn't born here that he was a Muslim things like that. However, Obama himself never said any of these things. Obama himself never claimed that he was a Muslim.

So the Tea Party can say this or that but what is the strongest argument? Of course is what Obama himself says that he's not a Muslim. He's a Christian. Etc. And so we want to take that same position here with looking at the issue of Jesus being God Almighty.

Now, of course when we look at what others say about him The only way their claims about the person can be strong is if they are consistent with what the person himself says. That is the only way what other people say can be can be taken as a strong evidence if they agree.

But what the person himself says? So let us take a look at see.

What does Jesus say about himself? Well here we see in John chapter 17 verse 3.

This is allegedly the words of Jesus and it is said that he says speaking to God. He's supposed to be speaking to God. Which he's supposed to be God himself, and I'm not dividing. I'm aware of modalism and the different heresies out there.

So I'm keeping in mind what Christians tell me about the context that the three Persons are co-equal and co-eternal and that all three of these persons are the one God. So I have that in mind. I understand.