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Well, good evening, everyone. It's great to see you this evening. My name is Doug McMaster's. I'm the pastor here at New High Park Baptist Church and also will be moderating this debate and on behalf of New High Park Baptist Church and should be and James who want to give you a warm welcome this evening.
Thank you for coming and being here with us. If there's room in. Where you're seated if you can try to move to the middle and then we get a couple more in there's this is Long Island. So I'm sure we have about 20 going to be coming in after we get started.
So. But we do have an overflow Over there so we can always track from there. So if there's no room and you feel comfortable there or if you feel like you need to leave for any reason. It would not like to disturb.
As the debates going on you can always go into the gym area. There's a live feed in there. There's a minute delay. So If you hear everybody laughing and you're looking at the screen wondering why it's not funny just wait a minute.
This is a cell phone or a smartphone whatever you might have just please ensure that it's the ringer is turned off. I officiated a wedding at Oheka Castle some months ago and A phone went off and the lady answered it.
And and she continued to talk. So if you would please just make sure that's turned off. Restrooms as you might have already discovered. There's restrooms here on this level as you go back through this door near the mirror on the left is ladies on the right.
Is the men's there's also more? Downstairs you can go down the steps and there are there are restrooms there. Fire exits for those of you in the front rows. You can go through this door and down the steps.
There's a fire exit there. And of course, there's doors here and there and through the gym. Just in case we need that for any reason. We're gonna have a break this evening and there's some water stations around and also some coffee available.
We ask that if you do bring water you can bring water in here, but please don't bring any coffee in here. We just appreciate. Any accidents do happen so water water doesn't stay. If as you came in you might have received a card we have a limited number of cards.
If you didn't get one, I'm sorry, but we gave away as many as we possibly could. There's going to be a time for questions To be answered. Of course, not every question is going to be able to be answered.
I think that just stands to reason but if you would please Feel free to write a question down. We'll be going through those during the break and answering those a little later in the debate. Right before we have a break we're going to have a collection receive a collection.
That all of that is going to go as an honorarium to our speakers. None of it's going to be kept by us at all. So please feel free to give so that they might Receive I think a few recommendations for all the labor that they put in in order to be here this evening at the same time.
That'd also be a good time to put your questions In you submit your questions and so we can receive those I think for the moment that that addresses some of the some of the logistical matters. And let me just talk a bit about the debate.
I want to mention three things very briefly first the necessity of this debate. Secondly to introduce our speakers and then third to give you an idea of what to expect and to give you that format. You know increasingly in today's society engaging debate is being swept aside by two opposing forces.
The first is pluralism. The idea that all religions are equally true and valid in their communication about the truth of God the world and salvation. To a pluralist neither Islam nor Christianity can be seen as absolute and unique and the final way to God.
They assert the validity validity of all religions, but they deny the Penality of all religions to speak ultimately about truth. We don't agree with that. We believe there is truth to be known and This debate will bring that to bear.
The second force is prejudice and There's a lot of prejudice in society today an unfavorable opinion forms beforehand without knowledge without thought or without reason. That results in unreasonable attitudes and even hostility.
So this is not only a time for truth to be known but also for education to be received by all of us. So that we might understand What the issues are? So we engage this evening not sweeping our differences aside.
But by bringing those differences together with their full force in order to ensure that truth has its voice. We believe here that the consequences of error are not merely temporal or societal but they are eternal.
As we face a holy God and so This evening the matter of this evening about the person of Jesus Christ is one of interest to us all and I believe is of eternal consequence to us all. Both Christianity and Islam Affirm the person of Jesus both afford Jesus a very high place and the difference lies in the understanding of his person and nature.
Who is Jesus? How you answer that question makes all the difference. Let me introduce our speakers first is Shadid. Welcome Shadid. This is Shadid Lewis Originally from Long Island. I've recently discovered so welcome back.
It's good to have you here. Shadid is a member of the Muslim debate initiative and is the director of the US branch of the Muslim debate initiative Which is formed of members from the Muslim community with experience in public speaking apologetics polemics research and community work.
Shadid also currently serves as president at the Hampton Mosque and Islamic Center in Virginia. He has his certification in comparative religion from the Islamic Research and Propagation Center. And has studied the sciences of the Quran at the American Open Islamic University in Fairfax, Virginia.
Let's give him a welcome. Shall we? James White welcome. James is director of Alpha Omega Ministries Christian apologetics organization that's Based in Phoenix, Arizona, and he told me today. It's 95 degrees there.
Well, welcome to Long Island. James is a professor having taught Greek systematic theology and various topics in the field of apologetics has authored several books 24 books including the King James only controversy the Forgotten Trinity the Potter's freedom and the God who justifies.
He is a debater and has engaged in more than 140 moderated public debates around the world on issues of Roman Catholicism Islam Jehovah's Witnesses Mormonism and several well-known nationally and universally known critics Recent years.
He's also debated in Various mosques most recently in South Africa and one in London. He's the elder of Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church, and he's married to Kelly for more than 32 years. He doesn't look like that's possible, but he has been.
And he has two children and one grandchild Clementine. So, let me give you an idea of what to expect this evening. We're going to begin with two opening statements of 20 minutes each and change white is going to go first and That's going to be followed by two 10-minute rebuttals and then subsequent to that two five-minute second rebuttals and That will then lead us into our time for the collection the submission of the questions and for us to take a break.
After we come back from the break both of our speakers will engage in cross-examination where James White will be asking should eat questions for 10 minutes and Then should eat will be asking James questions for 10 minutes and Then we'll open it up soon to submitted audience questions and the time frame for that will be determined on what the evenings looking like and then each speaker will have an opportunity to provide seven minute closing remarks and It's customary for the first to go last and so James since he's starting this evening.
We'll be finishing it off and she will be the first to speak to that. So without further ado let's welcome James White and.
Open up our debate this evening. It's an honor to be with you this evening.
And unfortunately, we have a lot to talk about in a very very short period of time so I hope you will get a deep seat in the saddle as we say out out West and Listen very closely because I think it's an extremely important subject.
Our two communities need to be able to communicate with one another to talk with one another and it is our honor this evening to be able to engage in this kind of debate. I'm going to try to get my my presentation going up there, but Unfortunately, I'm clicking and it's not clicking.
So that's not a that's not a good thing at all. There we go. Let's let's see now and it's green and I'm gonna have to go next slide, please. Because the clicker is not working that's Unfortunate. I'll keep trying to get it to work eventually.
But anyways in the Islamic Christian conflict there really is no middle ground of compromise. The Christian is one who believes with the Apostle Thomas that Jesus is our Lord and our God as he said in John 2028 and with the early church confesses that he is our great God and Savior as we read in Titus chapter 2 verse 13 next one, please and.
For the Muslim the question is answered by the overriding authority of the Quran and surah 112 3 a loss. According to that text in the Quran Allah beginneth not nor is he begotten when yellin while I'm yielded Christ Jesus the Son of Mary was no more than an apostle of Allah.
We are told in surah 4 171. Please when I do that was let's go. And then we have a in surah chapter 9 the Jews called Uzar a son of Allah and the Christians called Christ the son of Allah that is a saying from their mouth in this.
They but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say Allah. Allah's curse be upon them how they are deluded away from the truth. They take their priests and their anchorites to be their Lords and derogation of Allah and they take as their Lord Christ the Son of Mary yet.
They were commanded to worship but one Allah. There is no God, but he praise and glory to him far as he from having the partners. They associate with him that is from surah 9 in the Quran very very strong strong words.
That we have presented there in regards to what we as Christians the people of the book are supposed to believe. Even the theorem on the early commentators on the Quran the top seer literature commented on these eyes and said Allah the exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists disbelieving Jews and Christians who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against the law of the exalted.
As for the Misguidance of Christians over ESA it is obvious. This is why Allah declared both groups to be liars. That's from tip the top seer to the catheter. And this is the reason given for fighting against Christians to ensure their continued human humiliation degradation and disgrace and so that is a Theological issue on the part of the Quran is what Christians believe about who Jesus is.
So we have to discuss this we have to deal with this issue. It's very very Important is Jesus God Almighty. Well, the Christian answer this question is specific. It is biblical and it is balanced. But it is likewise not understood by most Muslims because it was not understood by the author of the Quran itself.
Muslims following the Quran assume Unitarianism and read Unitarianism into their reading the Christian scriptures. They assume that there is only one person of God and they just read that into the reading of the New Testament.
Even when the New Testament goes against that kind of understanding. Let's have a definition of what we're talking about this evening. And I would like to say the Muslims get to define what Islam is. The Christians get to define what Christianity is.
We don't get to define that what the other one believes. What is the doctrine of the Trinity within the one being that is God there exists eternally three co-equal and co-eternal? Persons namely the Father the Son the Holy Spirit being and person are two different things.
We are all human beings, but we're all different persons. Iraq has been but it has no personality. We have limited finite being but we are each individual persons. Being in person is not the same thing.
And if you're going to insist that they are then I'm going to have to ask you to explain Why you can insult Iraq all day and it won't get offended at you. Because if you're saying the same thing, then you're gonna have to explain how that works.
No, but we are saying we are not saying that Jesus is the father we are not saying Jesus is the spirit. This is a common misunderstanding of many people. Any and all demonstrations this evening that the father is other than the son that the father and son are distinguished, etc.
Utterly irrelevant to the Christian teaching of the Trinity since the Trinity specifically asserts these very truths. Keep that in mind. Then how can the Christians say Jesus is God Almighty? Well first of all the Bible quotes Jesus saying that the best reading of Revelation 1 8 is I am the Alpha and the Omega says the Lord God who is and who was and it was to become the Almighty.
And in the context those words are most probably spoken by Jesus himself. And so if they are very clearly he is identifying himself in that fashion in Revelation 1 8. But likewise I would assert that Jesus shares the one being that is God shown in the use of the term Yahweh that is the Hebrew term for Yahweh on the screen is called the tetragrammaton.
It is the very name of God in the Old Testament to use thousands of times of God there and the New Testament writers Associate that name with the father the son and the spirit. So think about this argument.
There is only one being of God. We are absolute monotheists. I believe was a 11 9 23 19 all those other texts. I've debated many Mormons on this subject. We believe there is only one God the name by which this God revealed himself in ancient days was Yahweh.
The father is identified as Yahweh because Yahweh lays our sins upon the Messiah. For example, the spirit is the spirit of Yahweh and the son is specifically identified as Yahweh by the Christian scriptures.
Let me give you a couple of texts in the biblical portion here in a moment that demonstrate that that is the case. So if you have one being of God Yahweh and you have three persons of distinguished from one another and yet they're all sharing that One name this is why the scriptures forced Christians to the doctrine of the Trinity.
It's not something that is made up and then play with the scriptures to make it fit. This is looking at the evidence of the scriptures themselves and coming to the conclusion from that. All right. Now Jesus is God Almighty since Jesus is the incarnation of the second person of the Trinity.
The eternal law. God's the one who shared the glory of the father in eternity past according to John 17 5. This does not make us polytheists nor does it confuse the father and the son as long as we allow all of the New Testament To speak and that will be the real issue this evening whether we will allow that to happen.
Now think about just some of the phraseology of the New Testament of Jesus. He's called the Lamb of God. He is called the Son of God. He's called the first and the last. The Word of God the risen Lord the creator of all worshiped by men and angels and all of creation.
He is the object of prayer in John 14. The disciples are told to pray to him. He is called the Alpha and Omega the beginning of the end all creation bows to him. That's not all all the fullness of deity that which makes God.
God dwells in him bodily all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge Are hidden in him. He is called the great I am every thought is to be taken captive to his obedience. He is called our great God and Savior.
He's called the eternally blessed God. The early church praise and sufferers in his name Emmanuel God with us is the term that's used of him. He is called El Gabor and Isaiah 9 6 the mighty God same word used of in Isaiah 10 21 of Yahweh himself Lord God creator Savior Lamb of God risen and coming king and kings and Lord of Lords.
There really isn't any question my friends what the Bible teaches about who Jesus Christ is. You have to deny biblical authority. You have to tear the Bible into shreds to not see what the teaching of the New Testament is in regards to Jesus Christ is and so the question this evening is very clearly answered by the biblical evidence itself.
But I haven't gone through the text and since I have to prove it. Let's take a look at those particular texts. The real issue this evening when we think about it is Islamic denials. The deity of Christ are not generally biblically based.
They're due to the anachronistic acceptance of the claims of a 7th century text the Quran written by man without any direct Access to the Bible itself the Bible hadn't even been translated into Arabic yet.
It wouldn't be for another 200 some odd years of the time that he was alive. And so while the New Testament by its first century, and I argue eyewitness testimony to the words actions and teachings of Jesus.
But Quran is historically speaking irrelevant to any inquiry into Jesus's life and ministry. Historically there is no connection. It's 600 years removed from the time of Jesus. We'll see this evening if we are consistent in our handling of that kind of historical information in comparison to the New Testament.
Now how do we know about the deity of Christ. Three quick lines of evidence. One it is demonstrated by the Identification of Jesus with the word to us which means God he is called God. Secondly is demonstrated by the identification of Jesus as Yahweh Yahweh the Lord.
And thirdly demonstrated by ascribing to Jesus the prerogatives Rights and powers of the Creator himself. Now you have to be very brief. I only have about nine minutes left, and so I need to be quick with this.
But I want to give you this this information as a basis of our conversation. Jesus as God for example in Isaiah 9 6 he is the prophetically described as El Gabor the mighty God in Titus 2 13 and 2nd Peter 1 1 in the original language.
We have what's called a Granville Sharp construction and in both those constructions Jesus described as our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Both the terms God and Savior are being applied to Jesus the Messiah and of course The Apostle Thomas when he sees Jesus risen from the dead Answers and says to Jesus all of these words my Lord and my God it wasn't my Lord My God, that's impossible.
They were all addressed to Jesus. That's what the original language specifically states each of these places the term God is being used of Jesus. John 1 1 describes the pre-incarnate word the Logos is existing in eternal fellowship with the father and the word was Deity is an expressive translation of that last phrase.
In John 1 1 the word was as to his nature God he is truly deity not angelic or anything lesser. He is truly God. In Colossians 2 9 we have the phrase the fullness of Deity play Roma taste. They are kicked off that which makes God God dwelling in Jesus Christ in his resurrected state.
Bodily, this is the assertion of the letter to the church at Colossi. The New Testament writers often quote Old Testament passages that are uniquely about Yahweh and apply these texts to Jesus. These are monotheistic Jews and that they're applying these texts to Jesus in Hebrews chapter 1 verses 10 through 12.
You have a quotation of Psalm 102 25 to 27. Which is about Yahweh as the unchanging creator and those words are applied in the incarnate Son Jesus Christ. Look at look at the words. Look, it says and you Lord laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning and the heavens are the work of your hands.
They will perish but you remain. They will all wear out like a garment like a robe. You will roll them up like a garment. They will be changed but you are the same and your years will have no end. That's quoted in chapter 1 from Psalm 102.
It originally was about the fact that Yahweh never changes and now it's being described of the Sun in Hebrews chapter 1 clearly the writer of the Hebrews identifies Jesus as Yahweh, but he's not the only one.
And likewise in John 12 41 the Apostle John having quoted from Isaiah's temple vision Isaiah saw Jehovah sitting upon his throne lofty and lifted up where the prophet sees him there. He actually says that the one that Isaiah saw was Jesus.
Look at John 12 41 says Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and he spoke of him. If you ask Isaiah Isaiah, who did you see his response to be? I saw Yahweh. If you ask John who did Isaiah see his response is he saw Jesus.
And so you have the writer of the Hebrews you have John. Identifying Jesus as Yahweh in inarguable terms and. Both believe there is only one true God. What does that mean their faith was all about? Jesus that's greater for by him.
Colossians chapter 1 says for by him all things created both in the heavens and on the earth visible and invisible. Or thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities all things have been created through him and for him.
He is before all things and in him all things. Soonest again, they hold together they consist. That is a description of the creator himself and. These words are used of Jesus specifically to refute the early forms of Gnosticism that were coming into the church that viewed Jesus as a as a Demigod or a lesser a lesser being amongst the eons in the in the Gnostic Play Roma, which is a topic we may end up getting into.
I hope we don't have to but if we do we'll talk a little bit about Gnosticism later in the evening. Jesus also identified as the great I am. In the Gospel of John a number of times the phrase ego I me is used by Jesus in a specific way to identify himself with the same use that term in the Greek sepulchre.
It's found Isaiah 43. It's found the mind of prophets. It's used many times. There's another word for describing Yahweh. So for example in John 8 58 Jesus says to the Jews truly truly I say to you. Couldn't have it up on genocide and go.
I mean before Abraham was I am and what do they do? They pick up stones to stone Jesus. Why they pick up stones stone Jesus. Because they know exactly what he's claiming. He just said that Abraham would rejoice to see his day.
He had already said in John 8 24 unless you believe that I am you will die in your sins. They know that he is blaspheming. Unless he is who he claims to be. And then in John 13 19 a tremendous text from now on I'm telling you before it comes to pass.
So when it does occur, you may believe that ego I mean I am that's quoting directly to my Isaiah 43 10. Which is where Jehovah's Witnesses get their name by the way and in both places in the Old Testament Yahweh is saying I'm going to tell you what happens before it happens.
So when it happens you may believe that I am and Jesus is doing the same thing. Talking about Judas and quotes from that and tells his disciples when it happens. You will know that I am. Jesus knew his Old Testament.
He knew what he was quoting and he knew what he was applying to himself. He said them I am he and Judas also was betraying him. So John chapter 18 was standing with him. So when he said to them I am he they drew back and fell to the ground.
John 18 5 through 6 when the soldiers come To arrest Jesus and Jesus says ego. I me they fall back upon the ground. Please tell me why that happened and please don't say it's well. It's because they weren't accustomed to encountering such moral purity.
Yeah, it happens all the time soldiers run into moral purity and they fall over all the time. It's it's an amazing thing. No, that's not why it happened. Jesus was using a phrase and John is communicating to us the reality of who Jesus really was.
And that's why it's so important to see me my friends because what did Jesus say in John 8 24? Therefore I say to you that you will die in your sins for unless you believe that ego I me you will die in your sins.
I don't think dying in your sins is something you want to do and Jesus said unless you believe that I am you will die in your sins very very important. The early church. Was a singing church and one of their early hymns.
We have a fragment of it in Philippians chapter 2 verses 5 to 11. And I will close with this because there's one of the most beautiful texts in all the New Testament. Listen to what the Apostle Paul said to the Church of Philippi.
You must have the same mindset among yourselves. It was in Christ Jesus and here's where the hymn begins. Who although he eternally existed in the very form of God? Did not consider that equality he had with God the father something to be held on to at all costs.
But instead he made himself nothing but notice how he did this. Notice this was not done to him this he did voluntarily. He made himself nothing how by taking on the very form of a slave by being made in human likeness the humiliation.
The Jesus endured was by taking on our frame our form our nature. God didn't cease being God the incarnation. God knows how to take on a human nature without ceasing to be God. Jesus was the God man perfectly God perfectly man didn't cease being God in any way.
And he made himself of no reputation by taking on the very form of slave by being made in human likeness he became nothing by taking on that form and. Having entered into human existence he humbled himself.
By becoming obedient the point of death even the death one dies on a cross. Yes, the cross is the universal unquestioned historical reality of how Jesus Christ died. There is no one who denied that outside of Gnosticism and we can talk about that at a little later point.
Even the death one dies on the cross. Because of this God the Father exalted him to the highest place and bestowed on him the name which is above every name. So the name of the mentioned the exalted name of Jesus.
Everyone who is in heaven on earth and under the earth bows the knee and Every tongue confesses Jesus Christ is Kodiak's the very same term use of Yahweh in the Old Testament all the glory of God the Father.
Notice the distinction. Jesus is exalted and yet. He's not confused with the father. His exaltation does not detract from the glory of the father. It adds to the glory of the father. And this is the primitive faith of the church.
Is this a later invention. No it is not. I don't have time. But there are a number of references I have that I was going to give to you. In regards to the early church who believe this. The point is the Testimony of the New Testament is explicit.
It is clear. We believe that Jesus Christ is God Almighty. He's not the father. He's not the spirit, but he's identified as Yahweh. That was the consistent testimony of the New Testament, and that is why Christians believe it to this day.
Thank you very much for your attention.
Okay, let's welcome Shadid now. He's going to give this 20-minute presentation.
Shadid, peace be unto you. I begin in the name of Allah the most Beneficent most Merciful. By now most people should be aware that Islam if you don't know is the only non-christian faith that I'm aware of that as part of its belief accepts and believes in Jesus.
The question though is what do Muslims believe about Jesus and that question will be answered in tonight's debate. The subject matter is is Jesus God Almighty the most high. Of course in Islam as James White as Dr. White mentioned that in Islam that answer is a clear no.
We read in the Quran chapter 5 or 75 it says the Messiah the Son of Mary was only a messenger and Other messengers had gone before him now. This is not a derogatory term to say he's only a messenger because the messenger who God selects is a very high Title to have because obviously we are not all called to be messengers of God.
So this is not a degrading or a put-down but is to say that in other words, he's a human being. He's not God. We read further in chapter 43 verse 59. It says speaking of Jesus He was not but a servant on whom we bestow favor and we made him an example to the children of Israel.
Now of course telling you is not enough and Contrary to what you may have heard in the media that Islam demands Forceful submission is quite the contrary in the Quran chapter 16 verse 125 we read. Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and goodly exhortation and have Disputations or debate with them in the best manner.
Surely your Lord knows best those who go astray from his path and he knows best those who follow the right way. So as you can see here in the Quran what we're doing tonight is actually part of Islam part of Islam.
To have discourse to debate to discuss Islam does not demand a forceful submission as you may have heard in the media. Actually, it calls for an intellectual discussion and debate and discourse about these subject matters.
We're in we differ. In fact, the Quran goes further to say in chapter 46 verse 4. Have you not considered speaking to those who have these other beliefs that the Quran Takes issue with the same so I say to you as I read the Quran say Have you considered what you call upon besides Allah?
Show me what they have created of the earth or have they are shared in the heavens. Bring me a book before this or traces of knowledge if you are truthful and so this debate is really goes beyond just the issue of the theological issues.
Because you see when you make or claim that a man is God. Many issues arise from this you see for example on our the flyer for the debate. Nothing personal but on the flyer. The title of the debate is there and then on the top you see the pictures of a man's feet walking upon the water.
What's the implication there that what that God is a man? And then further problems arise. Well, you look at his feet and they have this particular color to them. So is God a white man. The black man may say no one God to be a black man.
The Asian man may say I want God to be an Asian man. Why is it acceptable for God to be this color or that color? Whereas in Islam? God is not like us. He is not one of us. You know that song God is one of us.
All right. However, this issue is very serious because if someone can claim if some can claim a man to be God. Then surely some people from another culture can come up one day and become the dominant people of the earth and claim that no.
This man is the God who looks like us. And so Islam wants you to concentrate on God alone. And so let us go into the subject about Jesus. Is he indeed? God Almighty the most time You heard that the New Testament is supposed is clear on this issue.
However, I beg to differ now. When you are discussing about someone and claims about a person I'm sure you would agree that the strongest arguments in favor or in Contradiction to that argument is what the person him or herself says.
For example when Obama got elected We heard many people making charges that he wasn't born here that he was a Muslim things like that. However Obama himself never said any of these things. Obama himself never claimed that he was a Muslim.
So the Tea Party can say this or that but what is the strongest argument? Of course is what Obama himself says that he's not a Muslim. He's a Christian. He goes to church, etc. And so we want to take that same position here with looking at the issue of Jesus being God Almighty.
Now, of course when we look at what others say about him. The only way their claims about the person can be strong is if they are consistent with what the person himself says. That is the only way what other people say can be can be taken as a strong evidence if they agree.
But what the person himself says? So let us take a look and see. What does Jesus say about himself? Well here we see in John chapter 17 verse 3. This is allegedly the words of Jesus and it says that he says speaking to God he's supposed to be speaking to God.
Which he's supposed to be God himself, and I'm not dividing. I'm aware of modalism and the different heresies out there. So I'm keeping in mind what Christians tell me about the context that the three Persons are co-equal and co-eternal and that all three of these persons are the one God so I have that in mind I understand.
So he is talking and he says this is like eternal that they might know you the only true God and Jesus the Messiah the anointed one of God whom you have sent. Now again, I'm keeping in mind the Christian doctrine of the Trinity that the three are equal.
Jesus is as much God as the father is etc. But it's not three gods. I understand that it's not three gods. He is one of the person that he makes up the same one God. Now, why is he speaking like this?
Why is he speaking to this person this other person and saying? That you are the he is that we are the only true God. He said you are the only true God and who am I. I'm Jesus the anointed one the Messiah the one who is anointed of God whom you he says have sent again in John chapter 20 verse 17.
Here Jesus sends a message to his followers. Jesus said unto her speaking to Mary Magdalene touch me not for I am NOT yet ascended to my father but go to my brethren and say unto them I ascend unto my father and your father to my God and Your God.
Again, I'm keeping the Trinity in mind. He's supposed to be co-equal. He's supposed to be co-eternal. He's one of the persons and he is just as much God as the father in the spirit, but it's not three gods one God.
I got it. I understand then why is he speaking like this? Why is he saying that if he is God himself? Why is he saying that I have a God notice and he says his God is your God. So not only is he the God of the disciples, but since you are followers those of you who are followers of Jesus.
He's saying he's your God too. Not that he is your God, but that you along with Jesus have the same God. So you and Jesus your God is other than Jesus. He's my God and you're gonna say that I'm your God.
He said no, he's my God and he's your God, too. You see. So clearly if he's God Almighty the most high. He would not speak like this because Yahweh never talks of like this. Yahweh never speaks of himself having a God.
Yahweh never says to the children of Israel that you know. He is that he's with them and that they have a God in and in their God. And he's the God of Yahweh is also the God of the children of Israel.
No, Yahweh makes it clear that he is the God of the children of Israel. Not that he has a God along with them, but Jesus here says that my God is your God. We see further here a very clear argument makes it clear in John chapter 8 verse 40 we want to know who Jesus is.
Well, he tells you these are alleged words of Jesus. He says in John 8 40, but now that you seek to kill me a Man now this is the word that's used here is anthropo or anthropos. It's not it doesn't mean mad as of the male gender.
This word actually means a human being. As you look for example in violence expiratory Expository in the Dictionary of the New Testament says anthropo is used generally of a human being. Male or female without reference to sex or nationality it is distinction from God.
This word means a complete full human being not God not fully God and fully man. No, this word is only used of one who is a complete full human being as it says here. It's a distinction from God. So the writer of John has Jesus declaring that he is a man.
He's a human being and Use of the word that explains himself as one who is completely human not mad at God this word won't allow for you to say Oh, yeah, he's man 100 man and 100 God. No here this word is used to it distinguishes a person from God and so it has Jesus saying that You seek to kill me a man that has told you the truth and notice here that I heard from God.
Once again with the Trinity in mind. Co-equal co-eternal. He's just as much God as the others. Then why is he saying that he heard the truth from God if he is God Almighty? Is it God the source of the truth?
Is it God the originator of the truth so God doesn't have to hear the truth from anyone because he is God. But here it is said to say that Jesus says that he heard the truth from God. Now, please take that into consideration.
Take that in serious consideration. He's saying he's a man a human being who has told you the truth. Not that he that he brought for himself not that originates with him. But that he heard from God other than himself clearly God is other than Jesus.
He heard the truth from God and again keep that word in mind. Anthropos. Anthropos. Again a human being this is the word that is used for a human being and again It is clear that this word makes a distinction from God.
If the writer of John Did not want you to use it should have not have used that word. Because this word takes and negates any idea of man and God together fully manfully God together. And then we can take a look and see.
What have others said about Jesus. Now again as I said the words of others are only strong if they Back up with the person himself said so we looked a little bit at what Jesus himself was the same. By the way before I go to that let me make something clear to you, too.
We talked about Anthropos and how Jesus referred to himself as a human being. I want you to take note that we go back To the Old Testament or the Hebrew Scriptures the Hebrew Scriptures. Tell us that God Yahweh.
He's not Anthropos. Did you know that he says that he's not anthropo. Jesus says that I am Anthropos, but Yahweh says that I'm not Anthropos for example in Hosea chapter 11 verse 9. Hosea chapter 11 verse 9 has the phrase with God says for I am God and not man.
That's the translation, but in the Septuagint, which is the Greek version of it He makes it clear. He's saying that I am not Anthropos. The same word that Jesus says that he is here God says I'm not Anthropos.
Again in Numbers chapter 23 19 the same word God is not Anthropos. We see in Ezekiel chapter 8 28 verse 2 that the Prince of Tyrus is rebuked for claiming to be God because he is what he's Anthropos. He's just a mere man.
We see in Isaiah chapter 31 verse 3 that the Egyptians are condemned. It says the Egyptians. They are they are they are Anthropos and not God. They are human beings they are not God they are Anthropos and not God, but Jesus says I am Anthropos.
How then can he be God Almighty the most high if he is declaring that he is other than what Yahweh said he was not. So again as I said we look at what others have said.
So for example. What about us about Jesus?
Those who've seen him at the beginning those who were the very first not what things develop later on with the church. But what your Bible says. What I would take as to be the very first followers. What did they when they saw Jesus perform miracles when they heard him speak?
What did they say your scripture says for example in Matthew chapter 21 verse 11 that the crowds answered? And they said this is Jesus the prophet not the God. Jesus the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee.
In Matthew chapter 21 verse 46 it says they looked for a way to arrest him. But they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a God or God. No they held that he was a prophet. When people saw Jesus Performing miracles and things like this it says in Matthew chapter 9 verse 8 when the crowd saw this.
They were filled with awe and they praised God who had given such authority to man. So they saw Jesus performing a miracle they saw him forgive people matter of fact and this Example was when he had forgiven a man's sins and healed the person, but they didn't say oh, yes, this man is God.
They they marvel they praise God because God had given authority to a man. God gave the authority to a man and in fact this is what Christians tell us. Christians tell us that Jesus was given Authority even if all authority was given to him.
If I go and get a job at Microsoft. And Bill Gates gives me authority does that make me Bill Gates. No right somebody had to give me that authority. Bill Gates had to give me the authority over Microsoft.
Obviously I didn't possess it from the beginning. How then can I be the most high person in the company of Microsoft when it has to be given to me. Again. For example in Luke chapter 24 verse 19. This is supposed to be after the alleged crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.
When he's talking to his followers or some of those who follow him and they don't quite recognize him. So he asked them about the things that they were speaking of. Now remember this is after all the events have taken place.
How he said all these things perform these miracles and yet look what they're still saying about him. So he asked them what things are you speaking of Luke chapter 24 verse 19? And it says they said unto him the things concerning Jesus the Nazarene.
Who was a prophet? Mighty indeed and word before God and all the people not who was God, but who was a prophet. Mighty indeed and word before God and all the people. We still see further after Jesus is not among his followers in Acts chapter 2 verse 22.
What do we read? Again, remember this is supposed to be after his speeches his miracles perform forgiving people's sins, etc. Yet what we still read. Luke chapter, excuse me, Acts chapter 2 verse 22. Ye men of Israel.
Hear these words. Jesus of Nazareth a man approved of God. Unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you even as you yourselves know. Now, of course when we give this the Christian response is that yeah, that's fine.
Yeah, we believe we believe in those things. He's a man and they say that he's on these things take place because he supposedly humbles himself. However, we see that according to Jesus words that are list to be Jesus words himself.
He did not humble himself. For example in.
John chapter 12 Verse 29. I'm just gonna be. John chapter 12 verse 49.
These are again the words of Jesus. He says for I have not spoken of myself. But the father which sent me he gave me a commandment. He was told what to say. This wasn't a voluntary action. He was told what to say.
He sent me he gave me a commandment what I should say and how I should speak it not. Voluntarily, he was made to come his father. He said his father sent him. He was given a commandment what to say the same thing we see in John chapter 8 42.
This is in a response to the claim that well, yeah, he did those things because he humbled himself. Well, no. According to that somebody else saying that somebody else says that he was God. He humbled himself, but what does your scripture allegedly say that he said in John 8 42?
He says if God were your father You would love me for I proceeded forth and came from God, but I did not come of myself. But he sent me. I did not come of myself. Right the response is that he humbled himself.
Philippians chapter 2 verse 5, right? He humbled himself. He took it upon himself. But here Jesus says no, I did not come of myself. He sent me he told me what to say. He gave me a commandment. He is the one who sent me as opposed to him taking it upon himself.
So from what we have heard, is this the language of one? Who appears to be God Almighty the most high? And meaning that he has a God and meaning that the God of himself is also the God of his followers.
How can this be God Almighty? Admitting that he has a God how many of you would really accept that that God says yeah, I'm God. But I have a God. Yeah, and my God is your God. This is not the speech of one who appears or is the most high the most high God now somebody, you know a lesser God sure.
But that's not the Christian belief. Christian belief is that as you know, he is a member of the Trinity. He is co-eternal. He's co-equal all the all the all the persons are co-equal and all of them together all the one God but yet he's talking about if I was to accept that say, okay.
He is the one God then why is he speaking about is he's talking about another God? Not misunderstanding say, okay. I got it. He's supposed to be God. I'll take that. Then why is he talking about somebody else's God that shouldn't he be referring to himself?
Why is he saying that this other one? He heard the truth from? Why is he saying that this one is my God and this one is your God if he himself is supposed to be that very God himself.
Ten minute rebuttals, so we're gonna welcome James white to come and get that well. Unitarians are in the house. So we can.
Start talking about the assumptions of Unitarianism. Let's let's look at what should eat just did and and see why we just simply can't follow him here and and see if we Can't make some progress. So first of all Shadiq took a number of texts and he ignored the context in which they were found.
I will not do it with the Quran. When I look at the Quran, I want to know what the context is. I want to deal with it within the context of the author and what he intended. We have for example, John 17 3 given to us one sentence later Jesus says glorify me with the glory which I had with you in your presence father before the world was and yet that's ignored.
Looking At John 17 3 you can't do that to a text and honestly handle it. You have to allow the text to speak and to speak fully and so anyone who goes John 17 3 and then makes the application She did is is assuming that there is no such thing as the incarnation.
Which John started his gospel in in the beginning is the word with God word was God. John 1 14 the word became flesh. So the author is intending you to read the rest of it in the light of that assertion should he rejects that and then chops Up the rest of it is up.
Here's the verse. It doesn't fit with your theory because you're cutting into pieces. I can do that with surah 5. You can do it a surah 2 it easy to do but you never get anywhere. When you ignore the original authorial intent of the writings themselves.
Same thing in John 20 17. Jesus says my God and your God. We only believe in one God. What other God did he talking about Jesus as the incarnate man worships the father? He is the perfect. What do you expect it to be an atheist?
I mean seriously and and 11 verses later Thomas says my Lord and my God. What does Jesus do? Oh, you shouldn't do that. No. Jesus response is because you've seen me. Have you believed blessed are those who have you not seen believe Jesus Blesses his confession as a confession of faith.
That's only 11 verses later if you interpret verse 17 in a way. It's contradictory to what verse 28 tells you you're not listening to the text and that's what's going on this evening. And nowhere is this more clearly seen than in Shadi's dependence his dependence all the time.
I've listened to a number of his debates on John 840. If you just read the Gospel of John even people like Bart Ehrman who is a critic of Christianity Has always said the Gospel of John preaches the deity of Christ.
I clearly believe in the deity of Christ he can see it. The only reason the Muslim can't see it is because of the Quran. Not the interpretation of the Gospel of John itself in John 840. Listen to what Jesus says that he's already said unless you believe that I am you'll die in your sins.
But as it is you're seeking to kill me a man. And he says see a man means you can't be God assuming the incarnation cannot take place. There is nothing the term Anthropos that decries and denies the possibility of the incarnation absolutely positively.
Nothing. He says well, but God says I am not man. Hosea 11 9. Numbers 23 19. Of course the Gospels not the men who become gods. But that God became a man not that he's eternally been a man. The word became flesh at a point in time.
It is not God's eternal nature to be man. He's the creator of man, but he is so powerful. And he is so great that if he chooses to enter into his own creation He can do so and he did so out of his great love for you and me that is the Christian message.
I teach this language you show me or Anthropos denies the incarnation. It is not there and listen to what it says. They says a man was told the truth which I heard from God is to see. God doesn't need to hear anything from God.
Jesus is the incarnate one and in John chapter 5 makes so plain. The Jews had recognized Jesus claims to deity and they wanted to kill him because he called God his own father making himself equal to God.
But he doesn't believe ever said that because he was a mere prophet never called Jesus God. I called God the father and so but what really happened was Jesus did call God his own father. Making himself equal with God and the rest of John chapter 5 is all about Jesus saying look I'm not some separate deity out there running renegade doing my thing.
There is perfect unity between me and the father. I am doing what the father sent me to do and I'm speaking the words the father sent me to speak. Absolute perfect unity. That's why we can trust. That Jesus represents the father perfectly.
So when we see the Jesus we know what the father's like if he was doing his own things. We would not be able to trust the representation. We see of the father in Jesus is trustworthy. And so there's perfect unity between the two.
So in John chapter 5, I speak the words that have been commanded. I do nothing. From myself from myself in the Greek up and not to from myself. I don't do anything by myself separate from the father. Same thing in John 840.
He's in 842. He said notice it says I proceeded forth and come from God. I have not even come my own initiative saying that's contradictory contradictory flippance to no. It is not not even close because what she is saying there I do not do anything separate from the father.
He still does it voluntarily, but I do nothing separate from the father is that I'm doing my thing over there. Perfect unity is clearly John's intention to communicate that if we cut John's materials up.
That's our fault. Not not not John's fault. And so you have the assumption on the Muslims part there can be no incarnation and you have the assumption of Unitarianism. And then you read these assumptions in the New Testament cut up into pieces and that's what you have.
That's not how we move forward in understanding each other's scriptures. As I said, we had numbers 2319 who's a 119 so excited and it says I'm not man. I'm not an anthropos. That's exactly right. Isn't it interesting?
The Greek septuagint of was a 11 -9 it says and go I mean I am. The very same term that Jesus used himself in a 58 13 19 and so on and so forth is used there in Indication of God and again, we do not believe that God as to his eternal nature is a man.
But we do believe that as the creator he had the power to take on a perfect human nature. So as to live as a perfect man and give his life as a ransom for many. That is a consistent testimony of the New Testament.
Then we had another argument that I hope you're able to see it just simply isn't about argument. I could ask should be do you believe that Muhammad was a man and he would say yes I say do you believe he was also a prophet?
Yes, so you can be more than one thing. And yet we had a number of times where well look here the passages that people thought Jesus was a prophet. Yes, all Christians believe Jesus is a prophet and they believe Jesus is a man.
We have Jesus was our high priest. We believe Jesus was a king. Jesus was a lot of things and being any of those does not keep him from being the Son of God and being Identified as Yahweh and being identified as God.
God. Jesus is a whole lot bigger than some people would like to allow him to be and so to find well He talks of the disciples on the road to Emmaus. They they thought he was a prophet. Yes, they did think he was a prophet.
The Holy Spirit had not yet come the full revelation of who Jesus Christ would be would not come until the Spirit of God. Even Jesus later in that chapter had to open the disciples minds to understand the scriptures and their testimony to him.
So yes, there are all sorts of passages where Jesus identifies a prophet or a man. None of that has any relevance to the subject because the doctrine the Trinity says Jesus was a prophet. And he was a man and he was high priest and he was all these other things.
That's not an argument against what we are being told. We're told well authority was given to Jesus. Why. Because he's the servant he is and he has humbled himself. It's chapter 2 he has entered into human existence.
And as such he's even made himself depend upon the Spirit of God so he can be our example. He can be the one that guides us and gives us direction as to how we are to live our lives. He is the perfect man that does not change again.
If you just want to ignore everything that I said then you could try to make this kind of interpretation but you see to handle the New Testament right you have to take everything that I presented and Then everything that should be presented and amazingly when you read it all in context.
And you allow the authors to define their own intentions guess what leads you to believe the doctrine of the Trinity. And so when we ask the question that is being asked this evening is Jesus God Almighty.
He's not the father. He became incarnate and he behaved Properly and in accordance with what it meant to be the incarnate one the one that was prophesied. The one that was prophesied in Isaiah chapter 9 tell us who that was.
What was that prophecy about. There's no question that prophecy existed long before the days of Jesus? Who is this son that would be given. Who was this child that would be born interestingly enough the Hebrew root?
Yellin the very same Arabic word that is used in Surah 112. And yelling while a new lady began a thought nor is begotten yet Isaiah had said To us a child will be born. Who was that child who was held before mighty God Prince of Peace that everlasting father.
Which means that the the father returned to the creative return to Colossians chapter 1 who was? When we allow the New Testament to speak for itself.
We discover that God didn't just send somebody to tell us about his love. He came so see.
It sounds wonderful. It sounds preachy and then you clap. But you don't you're still you're letting yourself be pushed over and not paying attention to the evidence that was presented. So he says that I went after reading John chapter 17 verse 3 that a few verses later I Find actually no, I'm aware of those verses that doesn't change anything because in John chapter 17 verse 22 That same glory that same honor that Jesus asked God to give him.
He gives it to the disciples. Does that make the disciples God in John chapter 17 verse 22 same chapter? What does he say here? So that same glory they asked God to give him he now passes that on to the disciples in John 1722 he says the glory which you gave me when he just asked for in John chapter in verse 5.
Right he wanted for himself. Now he says the glory which you have given me I have given to them that they may be one even as we are one. So I'm not ignoring anything and again He says that what should the incarnate man be an atheist?
No, if the incarnate man is God himself He should be acting like he's God. Not a man praying to God not a man declaring that God is greater than him. How why is he talking like that if he's the incarnate man, right?
He's the incarnate God right there. Standing right there. So why is the incarnate God who's standing right there talking about I heard the truth from God. My God is your God. No, I don't expect him to be an atheist.
I expect him to be God. I expect him to talk like he's God standing right there. That's what I expect not an atheist. I expect him to speak like there is he's the most high God standing right there. And I want to speak like that talk like that because why he's supposed to be God the Almighty himself.
I Don't expect him to say well, yeah, I'm God, but you know, I got my God and my God is your God. And yeah, I need some help what you need help your God you need help. You have to hear the truth, but your God you're supposed to be the originator of the truth.
You're the source of the truth. What do you mean? You heard the truth? So yes, I am. That's exactly why I'm saying what I'm saying because I'm saying okay. The Christians tell me that he's God incarnate as it says the fullness not part of it.
Not 50 not a portion the fullness of God is in right there in him. Okay, all right, I see it right the fullness of God of him is in him right there. But he's talking about somebody else's his God. He's saying that he uses the word for that he's a man a full man and look every definition I've looked at my child looked up strong.
I'm looking at all these different Sources references for the word and the point I find nothing other than that. It means a human being it makes a distinction between human beings and animals. It makes a distinction between human beings and God.
I Find no other no other allowance for that word. He says that Jesus being the incarnate one. So Is the end that I'm not allowed for that? So once again, as I said, I am allowed if I'm saying I okay, I'll take it.
What you tell me he's the incarnate one. He's God right there. Yeah, he's saying that he heard the truth. Come on people be honest with yourself. You know, God doesn't hear the truth from anyone. You know God's not supposed to say I'm hearing the truth he is the truth he's the source of the truth.
Yes, is he not? He uses it goes to the reference where the Jews love the Jews that they understood no. No, sir, read through your scripture many times. Jesus is on the Jews case because they don't understand what he's saying many times.
He rebukes them because they do not understand what he's saying. Sometimes he even rebuses disciples because they don't even understand what he's saying. No, sir. Why don't you take the word of the enemies of Christ as a proof against him?
They don't they didn't and then if I even when he made that claim about being equal to God when he said Oh you saying God is your father by the way in what culture? When you say that God is your father that make you equal to God what culture?
The culture is that but you saying that you know that God is your father that that makes you equal. My father's right there I'm the son of my father. Is anybody gonna say oh you're claiming to be your father what culture what language is that when you claim somebody's your father that equals.
That that you're claiming to be equal to your father. And in fact in that very text Jesus refutes that. Because he tells them and reminds them how in the previous scriptures it said those to whom the scripture came.
They were called God's and all he's saying is that he's the son of God son of God. Not that he is God Son of God if I tell you that I'm the son of Obama. Would any of you right now run to call the FBI and say oh we got a man in here.
He claims to be the president of the United States sedition. Betrayal come get him FBI. No, he was all this guy's claiming to be Obama's son. That doesn't mean I'm claiming to be the president of the United States.
So this is strange. Getting about the assuming no incarnation as I said, no, I'm accepting what you tell me. I'm accepting that he is the incarnate God right there. However, it's just not adding up. He's not talking like he's God incarnate Yahweh never talks like that Yahweh never matter of fact your Bible tells you that Yahweh is jealous of this idea.
Your scripture say that Yahweh is jealous that you should take God before him. He's very jealous. Exodus 34 14. Do not worship any other God for the Lord whose name is jealous is a jealous God now. Yeah, now Yahweh is admitting that he has a God now.
He's not afraid to admit that he has a God. He's not admitted made that somebody's greater than him. The ego I may claim. Did you know that in John chapter 9 verse 9? There's a man who said the very same thing you go.
I mean now your translators to cover up and Keep you from knowing this they put it that the man says I am he but when you actually look at the Greek the man. In John chapter 9, he says ego. I mean just to say you go I'm only but that's not even what God said and said to it.
It is said that God said ego. I may hold on. Not just ego. I mean Jesus never says ego. I may hold on and in fact the scriptures that follow that show that Jesus that they are they misunderstood what he said.
Why. Because it says that they pick up rocks to stone him. What does Jesus do? He hides himself from them and he escapes. If I'm God I'll stand there pick up the rocks. I'll do like the matrix you're about to throw rocks.
I'll put my hands up and I'll freeze the rocks in the air. I'm not afraid of your rocks. I'm God come on pick him up and throw him at me. I'll just stand like Neo and freeze the rocks. Instead it says he hides up and he escapes and runs away from them.
Is that God? Of course not and as I said the very in the very next chapter chapter 9 verse 9 a man. Who the people were talking about the man comes he says yes, I am. That's what he really says. I even say I am he.
He says I am. Why did your translators translate his words as I am he but for Jesus they made. It say I am of course. They want to try to claim this. That Jesus is claiming to be the I am obviously he was not.
He just told him in 840 that he wasn't there I am. He just said I'm a man. Yahweh is not a man. He just said I heard the truth from God. Yahweh doesn't hear the truth from anyone. So of course he wasn't saying that he was that great.
I am he just told him in a few verses ahead that I'm a man. You're trying to kill me a man a human being. All Christians believe Jesus was a prophet. Well actually you really don't if you believe that he's God.
I got a prophet is one that is sent by God. So God is a prophet of himself. Of course not. So you really if you say you believe that he's God Almighty. Then the reality I'm saying the reality is that you really don't believe he's a prophet.
You believe he's God actually. The humble himself claim. I responded to that. I showed you that Jesus says the opposite. Your scripture shows that Jesus says the opposite. That he says no that I did not come of myself.
He was made to come. He was told what to say. He was told what to do. That's not humbling. That's not taking it upon yourself. That's somebody who has more authority than you telling you where to go and telling you what to say.
He said that you read it all in context. Well, I mean, that's the thing. You really can't read it all in context because the book is made up comprised of different authors. They weren't like that. It's not like they all got together said come on this work on the book together and they wrote it.
You know in concert with one another the book was written by various people with different ideas. Many of these three persons are unknown. So we don't know if in fact they were monotheistic Jews or not.
So when you say to me to all the content, it cannot be read in context. That's why you have verses that say one thing and another that's why the Muslim position that we see Contradictions here, that's our position on it.
The Isaiah 9 6 claim Isaiah 9 6. I'm sorry. This is just a Christian claim trying to impose their ideas upon the Jewish text. Let's look at Isaiah 9 6 and what does it say. Isaiah 9 6 says for unto us a child is born.
But unto us a son is given. The government shall be on his shoulders. Number one. Jesus had no government on his shoulders at Jesus time. The Romans were in power. He had no government on his shoulders.
He says the name should be called wonderful counselor the mighty God. How is he the mighty God. He just says I'm a man. He says that the father is greater than him. He says I have a God. How are you the mighty God if you have a God?
These are just simple ideas that you just have to follow. The everlasting father, you know, Jesus is the son, right? That's the Christian Pretty Okay.
I'm sure both speakers appreciate your response, but if you could keep your responses till after they finish that would be appreciated. We're gonna receive now the second round of rebuttals. This is a five minute session for each one.
Last chance to come first.
Thank you. She just told us that well Jesus would act like God.
So I guess we have this idea that instead of coming as the servant of God instead of coming as an example to you and Instead of coming in weakness of the flesh so that he might give his life of ransom for many instead of fulfilling all the prophecies That were about him.
Jesus should come down. He should glow and fire thunderbolts at people and do matrix stuff. There you go, that's utterly unbiblical and Completely ignores everything the Old Testament told us about the coming Messiah.
I'm sorry, but that is not even worthy of our attention. It is really really not the direction we need to be going first read this chapter one tells us that the preaching the cross is foolishness to them who are perishing and The idea of somebody coming down who's made to wipe out armies and and do all sorts of magic tricks and things like that.
That is completely opposite of what the New Testament teaches us. God's purpose was in the coming of Jesus Christ. Then we were just told that Bible translators. And I've worked as a consultant on American on a major American translation that we cover up John 9 9.
If you had looked at what I made my getting my presentation when I gave all the I am text. What did the New American standard say. I am he what does it say John 9 9? I am he perfectly consistent no cover-up.
Please don't accuse us of doing things. We didn't do. The fact of the matter is that when the blind man uses ego I mean the predicate is clearly understood as the I am the blind man that you are that they.
They're talking about if the predicate is found as it is in John 8 58 in the Old Testament Texts as it is an 824 13 19 and in John 18 5 through 6. That's why it's understood as being a reference to deity.
It's a simple proper handling of the text no cover-up. That is in Inappropriate assertion we had John 17 22 cited to us the disciples were given glory. I don't know what that has to do with what I said.
Which you need to read John 17 3 and John 17 5 as being two sentences that are right next to each other. But yes, the disciples are given. We didn't eternally exist in the presence of the Father glorious did we.
Jesus did so we are united with him. Amazing thing if you're in Christ, you're seated in the heavenly places in Christ. That's not an argument against the Trinity. Is it if you read all the New Testament if you cut the New Testament to pieces.
Well, it's really easy. My challenge to Shadid when she did not fulfill is show me one like the lexical source for Arthropos for anybody and Strongs and vines are not meaningful scholarly lexical sources.
We're talking about be daddy. We're talking about low Anita. We're talking about something like that. Show me where any of these meaningful scholarly sources say that Arthropos means God cannot enter into human existence.
He's assuming it but it's not there. It is a misuse of the Greek term in John 5. He says you're green with the enemies of Jesus that he was making himself equal with God. Well, actually the relationship is the assertion is that he has a unique relationship with the father.
He's not just a son of God. He is the son of God and this is in the book that describes him as monogamous the unique son of God. You can't just take John and pull verses out and ignore that elsewhere.
John talks about Jesus as the monogamous. We asked the unique son and that's what they understood. You just can't do that. That's an abuse of the text. Then then we were told that we don't believe Jesus was a prophet.
Again, this assumes this this minimized Jesus. Well, I believe he's God. He can't be a prophet. God shows the second person of the Trinity chose to enter into human flesh to accomplish certain redemptive facts and certain redemptive acts and Part of his function is to Frank's example be a high priest.
He offers himself. He is King. He is it is said that Jesus had no government. What's the kingdom of God when he's the king. And the book of Revelation says he rules the nations with a rod of iron. Please it is very very very clear what is being said in those texts.
And so there's so much more that I would love to get to simply don't have the time to refute each point. But as you can see if you allow the text to speak for itself. The refutation is found in just allowing the words to function.
And what have we seen? The only reason that should need to say no Jesus is not God Almighty is because he has a certain idea of what that must mean. Which assumes you cannot have incarnation. It assumes Unitarianism and it is not derived from an accurate knowledge of the text of the New Testament in any way shape or form.
Thank you very much for listening to our discussion.
Again, we all have Certain beliefs about God that we all would agree upon. Such as God being the most high. The all-powerful one the all-knowing one. These are things that I don't have to quote. I would hope I would have to quote a scripture for you to understand that we as people who believe in God.
Or these are concept of God and monotheistic God that we agree upon this. He has these these all-powerful. He's Almighty. He can't be defeated. He doesn't get weak. He doesn't need to learn things things of this nature.
We all agree upon these things. So the mockery is uncalled for. Because yes, I expect God to be like that. I expect God to be all-powerful. I expect him to know everything. I Expect him to declare very clearly that he is the most high and there's nobody else.
That's what Yahweh does. Allah says that in the Quran. But Jesus is not talking. Yes, I do expect him to talk like that and so should you. If he's if you believe that Jesus that man. Whatever it means you have whether he has long hair blonde hair afro, whatever you believe that that man is gone.
You should expect that of him as well. Even if he is incarnate because again the fullness is in him. It doesn't say part of it. It says the fullness is in him. That means he should the foot the fullness of God is in him.
He should have or everything that God has all those powers that knowledge the wisdom, but we see Jesus does not display that. Why because clearly he is not the most high God. I've already given you the words that make that clear.
And by the way, let's finish on the Isaiah 9 6 because it goes on right. I mentioned about the everlasting father. Your doctrine teaches that Jesus is what the son. In fact, mr. White just spoke about it the unique son of who of God how are you God and the son of God at the same time.
I Understand if there's a family of God, so you said well, look, you know, this is God. I'm the son of God when I'm with God too, but again, that's not the Christian doctrine. I don't want to misrepresent the Christian doctrine is not that the Christian doctrine is that Jesus is himself God along with the other members.
Not three gods. It's one God, but the three persons. So why is he the son of God then if he's supposed to be fully God himself? How is he the son of God? Why do you use the term son of God then at the same time you turn around and tell me that no he is God.
That's our discussion. Is he God Almighty the most time but you're saying now you just spoke about the unique son of son of son of son of God a Moment ago. He is God, which is it son of God or is God himself?
He said God chose to do this or do that again. Yes, I'm accepting that but if he chose to do this With why is it this inconsistency of how he's speaking and acting and he needs to pray he needs help and he's telling people that there's one greater.
Again, Yahweh doesn't talk like that. These things are not being answered instead He's giving you what you want to hear and you clap when you smile and you laugh it sounds good. But I'm trying to give you a serious argument because this is a serious thing that we need to be aware of and come to a definite decision about.
Stop allowing yourself to be pushed over by nice words and things that are preaching and it sounds well. We're talking about God here the most high you need to know who he is or who he is not. Because when it comes to the end.
This is where you will meet your Lord and you want to meet your Lord correctly. He said that a certain idea well. You also have a certain idea you keep you you refuse the things that are being brought and try to harmonize these things because you want.
To try to hold to the Christian Trinity idea. But if that if it was so clear, we wouldn't have other denominations of Christians that say otherwise. Such as the Unitarians and various other groups throughout the ages of Christianity who obviously did not.
Come to the conclusion that you and the members of this church have so obviously it was not clear Throughout the age. That's why these things were discussed and debated and they had councils that up after council of the council and they fought Over these things that people were declared heretics and that was declared a heretic.
Why? Because many of these ideas were brought up and people could read the scriptures the same way and say well. They see it this way and they see it that way and so once again Be honest with yourselves we all understand and believe in these ideas about God.
Look at the things that it is said that Jesus says that he's alleged to have said about himself and declared. And you be honest with yourself, and you know, this is not the language. All the actions of one who is supposed to be God Almighty the most high God Almighty.
The most high is just that and he would never declare that there's one greater than him time. Let's give James and should be.
Okay, as I stated earlier that we were going to receive a collection this collection is solely for our speakers and if you can Express your appreciation that way as in all the hard labor that they've given in preparation for this debate and also for those of you that receive cards you can submit those cards in the plates as well and that way we can receive those over the break and We can have that later on during the time of the debate.
I've just received word that our live stream is having some difficulty and those those folks are a few minutes behind us. In fact, they're I think well over five minutes behind us so I think what we're going to have to do is just call that and Stop the live stream in the in the gym.
There's only about 15 folks or so there. We'll send our apologies to them because I don't want to hold back. All of us just for the sake of about a dozen folks all the coffee is in there all the waters in there.
So let's receive the collection that'll give them maybe a few minutes to catch as much as they can. And then I'll dismiss you so you can have your break.