March 2, 2018 Show with Philip Webb on “Music that is Pleasing to God”

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Introducing Philip Webb and the Theme of Music That Pleases God

But today we have as our guest again Phil Webb. He is a critically acclaimed American tenor in operatic classical and sacred music and he's the project manager and editor at Hymns of Grace and today we are discussing music that is pleasing to God and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back for the second time to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Philip Webb.

Thank you very much glad to be back with you. And co-hosting once again with me is my dear friend for many years and a man who has been it has been a joy to work with and cooperate with and partner with on many projects for the gospel of sovereign grace over the years whether they be debates or conferences or radio programs or other things and so I'm so delighted to have back on the program as my co-host Pastor Jim Capo of the Massapequa Church of God on Long Island, New York.

Thank you. If anybody would like to join us on the air our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com if you have a question chrisarnsen at gmail .com please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA and please only remain anonymous if the question involves a personal and private matter and of course Jim since I cannot see you you can't wave your hand or anything you just chime in you chime in with a question at any point that you feel led to ask one and I may from time to time I may be prodding you myself from time to time to ask one but don't wait for that and the last the last time we had Phil Webb on which was just a few days ago we had him tell his testimony of salvation we had him give the history of how he got involved with music and also opera and classical and sacred music and we discussed hymns of grace and the the psalms project but for those of our listeners who are just tuning in for the first time and perhaps just discovering you brother Phil why don't you tell our listeners again about hymns of grace and then you could also repeat some of the information that they should know about the.

Hymns of Grace and the Psalms Project

Psalms project sure a project that's out of the master's seminary press. It's a new hymnal. It's only two years old. It came out of a desire to produce a hymnal that included some of the best of the old hymns but also included some of the wonderful hymns that have been written in the last 30 years.

We we realized that publishing companies are not publishing hymnals anymore. They've become a little less popular. But we we wanted to provide one and provide that. We have a website where you can purchase the hymnal in several editions and other.

Um it's him uh one of the other products we just produced. In fact i picked up the cds yesterday. We have produced a cd from last year's shepherd. There's nothing like being in the auditorium with 3 000 men singing.

So we have hymns of grace live at shepherd's conference. Uh it'll be released next week at shepherd's conference. But if you go to our facebook page there's a video and we just love for you to watch it and uh share it with others.

We've had over 10 000 views in just the last two days. So it's a video of bob coughlin leading 3 000 men in the old hymn. I stand amazed in the presence my savior's love. And uh it's nothing like nothing like being in the middle of men singing.

So that'll be released next week and it'll be for sale on our website. Following that you can follow hymns of grace on twitter and instagram. Then you can buy all the products at hymns of grace dot com.

Uh the psalms project is really it's really a work in progress. Um i i grew up in the church. I've been around church music. I've been a minister of music in church for over 20 years and i realized other than the reformed churches who use the psalter we do not have a strong history of singing the psalms.

We don't have a repertoire. No hymns that are comprised of the psalms are trying to find a way to encourage that and to bring to bear in pastors in musicians in poets in lay lay leaders who can help us.

A concept in this is we have a we have a part of the seminary called the institute for church leadership. If you go to tms .edu under resources you'll find the institute online programs for churches to bring their lay leadership through.

We're creating the psalms project to be a part of that program on preaching praying and singing the psalms and i'll tell you what the videos are going to be. I'll be on a theology of congregational singing trying to give a biblical perspective.

What. How does music fit into our into our gatherings. We've got kevin twitt of indelible grace who's going to talk about isaac watson his paraphrasing of the psalms. Bob coughlin is going to talk about the themes of god's glory in the psalms.

Hb charles is going to talk about preaching from the psalms. Steve loston has already recorded his sessions on preaching the psalms. Ligand duncan is going to talk about singing the songs in corporate worship and how the psalter shapes our worship.

Tom pennington is going to talk about praying the psalms in our services. And then will varner from the master's unit talk about reading the psalms devotionally. And bill barrick from the master's seminary is going to talk about the poetic structure of the psalms and the emotional elements.

And these videos are are designed to inform lay people about the psalms their structure. And then we want to take it a step farther. You know we need paraphrases sometimes metrical paraphrases of the psalms that we can sing in a congregational format that used to be done by pastors.

Pastors used to see that as part of their ministry. And we need to return to that and get pastors involved and get musicians involved. And we need to write some hymns that are based on the psalms that are experts set of tools that we want to roll out.

And then uh over the year we'll continue to provide other research our website to submit musical item and try just try to bring the body of christ around this and let's build up a modern collection of thing we need.

We need psalms that have melodies like in christ alone. And we need psalms that have melodies like come behold the wondrous mystery these are these are of those. Well thank you. And by the way do you know if the shepherds conference.

Shepherds Conference, Live Streaming, and Philip Webb’s Performance

Is sold out because i know it's next week. Yes it's sold out. Oh okay i just wanted to check on that. And uh do you know if it will be live streaming. Yes it'll be live streamed so if anybody wants to watch the live streaming i'm assuming they go to shepherds conference .org.

Let's see if that is. You can also find it at um you know if you go to grace church .org but i don't know if that. Let me see if this if it's shepherds conference .org.

And well uh conference .org. Yes okay. Shepherds conference .org is where you would go to the live streaming of the shepherds conference and it will feature john macarthur hb charles jr albert moeller ligon duncan iii mark dever stephen j lawson art uh azurda uh tom pennington phil johnson uh austin duncan and uh the aforementioned bob calvin.

And uh. Yes bob bob.

Will be leading the worship during the day and teaching a couple seminars for us so great and.

That is march 7th through the 9th so i hope that as many of you as possible can live stream and view that uh phenomenal conference which i hope to one day attend. I have not yet been to a shepherds conference but i hope god willing even next year that i might be able to attend that what i'm going.

To do now before you'll be singing it. Let me just it's real quick. Yes i you know they i can't i can't sing a lot when i'm having to teach and talk so i'll sing the last session on the evening session with choir and orchestra on friday night.

Does that get live streamed as well. Yes that will be live.

As well. Excellent great great. And now i'm going to uh play a song uh by our guest today philip webb. And this is a song that i'm sure is one of the most beloved hymns of the majority of our listeners.

I'm sure that uh our calvinist and lutheran listeners especially may get a chill up their arm as they're as they're hearing this song. A mighty fortress the classic hymn of the protestant reformation by martin luther.

And uh i count this among my favorite hymns and i hope that you enjoy philip webb's rendering of it. And here is philip webb with a mighty fortress.

Oh.

That was just absolutely remarkable. I cannot see.

Jim capo but i have a feeling there's a tear running down his cheek.

I'm glowing. I feel like i'm glowing. Oh that's then i. Then we had another pastor's conference in august where they had me sing it and don't sing about god sometimes in such native ways. Um so it's good to be reminded of that now.

You just reminded me of something. I always wondered how close the lyrics in german are to the english translated lyrics because obviously the english translation rhymes perfectly so is is this an exact translation from german to english or is there some word changes in that.

Hymn no the german thing in the german uh arrangement of the hymn that we in our english hymnal don't i'm trying to look um a mighty fortress in in german is i've got the german translation right here a little bit and i can tell you a little bit what they what they say.

It starts it starts off pretty much this. It's not literal but it's got the same idea. It's but they sometimes there's a few note changes and syllabic changes but the uh it the same the same thing is the same thing is meant but it's singing it in uh and uh one of the things that i wanted.

Music, Worship, and the Question of What Pleases God

To discuss today uh under the theme music that is pleasing to god as you know philip there is great division in the body of christ. It's very tragic uh to witness and hear about church splits that occur purely over musical preference and taste.

I have very dear friends who pastor churches that have had large numbers of members uh have an exodus out of the church because they wanted to introduce contemporary music into the worship services and the church had a history of traditional hymnody and somnity and they did not want to include some of the more contemporary sounding.

Now that they did not bar all uh hymns and music that were written in a modern era it was just more of the style the praise band bordering on rock music style. Now i am not a stick in the mud in fact i'm less conservative about music than my co-host jim capo.

But uh in fact it's funny because jim capo uh he pastors as i mentioned before the mass apica church of god which is in the church of god cleveland tennessee denomination and his worship services are more reformed baptist than many reformed baptist churches uh very very traditional reserved conservative.

Now uh do you believe that uh there is an area i mean obviously there there is a certain realm of music that would be subjective where you could not say emphatically uh without question that a particular song or melody or or rhythm was absolutely unacceptable.

There is that realm but but do you believe that it can cross that line into music that would not be pleasing to god as far as the style of music. Uh there are there is christian music or so-called christian music that i have heard that you can't even understand what the people are singing or what the person is singing and you just would think if it's blaring in somebody's car or if you're passing by a building and you're hearing it through the windows you would think that it was just a secular rock concert or a heavy metal concert or something do you do you think that there is a line that is.

Crossed. Uh you know that that's a very difficult question and i i'm reminded of a something that my pastor said a few weeks ago when he received uh when a lot of discussion was around social justice and things like that that he said you know jesus preached to the hearts of people he wanted to reach people's hearts.

So is there a type of music that crosses a line and god is not pleased with. And i think my first answer has to be yes. If the heart of the people who are participating in that is not in the right place.

Um is there a style that lends itself to bending the heart. Yeah i think so. But i i have no definitions. I know what scripture says about music. And i mean i think we both can agree that ephesians five and colossus three address this issue.

Um i think we can agree that he's very similar past in ephesians five he starts off saying therefore be imitators of god as beloved children and walk in love as christ loved us and gave himself up for us.

Ephesians three says kind of the same thing put on then as god's choice. He's trying to get people to walk in a certain way even if you backtrack from there if you go all the way back to ephesians four four one i therefore a prisoner for the lord urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling which you've been called.

And you you compare that with colossians two. Therefore therefore as you receive christ jesus the lord so walk in him. So then when you get to both of the verses in those passages your thought is you know ephesians five says be filled with the spirit addressing one another in songs and hymns and spiritual songs singing and making melody to the lord with your heart giving thanks always.

And if colossians three let the word of christ dwell in you richly teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom spiritual songs. I think any music is permissible as long as it leads to the sanctification of the believer and their walk in christ.

Yeah. And it also involves singing singing to one another. And that's where that's where the line gets blurred because there's a lot of christian music out there that doesn't fulfill singing one to another.

And a lot of it is because of style. A lot of it is because of rhythmic and harmonic choices that it's not able to fulfill this command to one another revotion or in a congregational setting. And i listen to a lot of contempt.

Well i don't listen to a lot of contemporary christian music. But sometimes i hear it and it's just a performance. There's not any way that it can be used for sanctifying the body of christ. And let me give you a perfect example nessun dorma is a beautiful melody.

It starts down on a d nessun dorma and it goes all the way and almost to the beautiful melody one of the most beautiful ever written. But it in no means is something that people can sing along with. And you can you can dream that you can sing almost two octaves.

But people people a lot of your musical style questions can be answered in is this congregational. Is this helpful in leading my people to sanctification in their walk in christ. Things you have to answer.

No this it might be a nice piece of music it might be a happy piece of music. It might be an exciting piece of music. But ultimately if you can't use it in the body of christ to sanctify people in their walk in christ then you can't use it in fact when we.

Come back from our first break uh i have a feeling that jim capo is chomping at the bit to ask a question. So when we return we'll have jim ask a question and we'll also take some listener questions. Our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com c h r i s a r n z e n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the usa. And please only remain anonymous. If your question involves a personal and private matter let's say you disagree with your own pastor or church or denomination in regard to music or something uh in that regard.

Perhaps you disagree with your spouse. You don't want to draw attention to your identity. Feel free to remain anonymous. But if it's not personal and private please give us at least your first name city and state and country of residence.

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And this thomas manton offer on iron sharpens iron radio. We are now back with philip webb and he is a critically acclaimed american tenor in operatic classical and sacred music. And he's the project manager and editor of hymns of grace we are discussing music that is pleasing to god.

If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com and pastor jim capo. You have a question for philip webb. Yeah um i've had discussions with a lot of people.

You know about this uh i've had many people say to me we'll leave that out for a moment because i agree with you 100 on that that should not be used for congregational worship. Uh regardless of what i hear over and over and over again is that the music itself apart from the word we you know are moral they're completely neutral.

They're not good they're not bad. Um the only thing that makes them appropriate for christian worship whether it's no but even beyond that it's the only thing that makes it appropriate for the christian and appropriate for glorifying god is the words that there is whatever it's all it's all on the table it's what it's.

It's the words that you put appropriate or not appropriate. What do you say. Do you agree with that. Do you disagree with that. Okay several things. First of all um i i agree with that to a point however i do i do believe here's the point that i agree with it i don't need to believe that but i do believe that man can arrange and create music under dynamic dynamic uh demonic influence and so therefore i believe that man is capable of creating a piece of art that is inspired by satan or has every intention of being created in antipathy to god.

I do believe that man is possible of that uh and i think for that situation we have to look and say you know whatsoever things are pure whatsoever things are lovely. Uh if we can think on these things that are in the right way.

Number two i think you have a responsibility to shepherd your flock the idea that there's always been this distaste with the previous that was with music that the newer generation brings up. I think even plato complained about the new music that was being written in his time that it was that it was not not adhering to the structure that he believed was mathematically correct.

So this has always been an argument that the the as the generations come and as music evolves that you are most satisfied with what you experienced probably as a teenager and what your ears grew up being developed on.

And it is harder for us to accept what is new. That's that's an ongoing thing. But as a as a person in leadership you have a responsibility to shepherd your flock. And if you have people in your flock who find that this is a great issue then you have to neglect uh some things in favor of other things and you have to gather to some have to give aside other preferences questions you know you might have to get people to be a little more accepting.

I find that with the older generations it's not so much the musical style but it's the newer songs the more contemporary songs are harder for them to sing. The rhythms are harder the range is harder and that that frustrates them.

And i think the younger generation does not consider that because they've grown up listening to that and being involved in that i mean i teach voice and i'm always having to say to my singers i cannot understand the word they've they'll bring.

And most of the time i cannot understand what they're singing. And it's because i just don't listen to that kind. I think finally this whole thing of does music have power. I'm going to give you i'm going to give you an example that you'll relate to very well.

Personally i i love that we're not ever done before. Of course one of my one of my coaches at the met told me once she said be very careful with wagner he will suck you in emotionally. And it's right.

When you listen when you listen to the overture to meister zinger or the flying dutchman or the ride of the valkyries. Yeah just what it it inspires you it inspires you. How a man at that time with no recording devices.

Could create. That is really genius. I always put on a viking helmet when i hear it and a viking.

Helmet and a bear skin and that's that's only part of his music. You i'm gonna talk about the meister singer voldemort which is based on the interesting enough the main character of this opera is a poem by some of martin luther's works.

And and this whole story evolves around a knight coming to town. And you had to you had to enter a competition. If he could win the competition that he would marry one of the master singer's daughters.

He had to create lyrics. He had to create melody and then sing it in the final competition. That the opera is basically extolling the power of german art in the vast laid out all around. You know what took place.

Do you know what took place before that. No hitler. Hitler required his officers to go to the opera house. Even today people are still offended by wagner's music. Not because of wagner but because hitler used it.

And i have a friend in austria any wagner operas and he said i will never attend a wagnerian opera. So his the power of that music is still big with people. I had a voice teacher who was a very famous soprano.

She was invited to sing at byroyd. She told me i will never sing at byroyd because of the war and what they did to our boys. So history and man and culture in imbues me. You know. And i i don't. I didn't grow up during the war.

I don't have those feelings. So for me listening to wagner is completely different. I have a completely different cultural relationship. So does music have power. Yes it has power based on what co happened in the i was born later.

I didn't grow up listening to elvis. I don't have art. I don't think that a piece of art created by man. Then i'm going to go to jesus. That jesus said that god is a spirit. That's what sets god apart from any idol that man creates so far above something that either is made of flesh or flesh makes now one one.

Okay go ahead jim. Go ahead. Okay so be no particular rage. No or or or sexuality think there is. But it's itchy. Well there there are some musical styles though where the even the.

Composers and the artists performing openly admit the reasons they compose the music. Some of it is because they wanted to convey the emotions of rage and anarchy and rebellion. Uh where where. There's a type of heavy metal music that i can't even remember the name of it but the singer scream.

They scream in a very growling animal like voice right. There are all kinds of and there was even very very sexy music. I mean there's there's melodies that i think go ahead. I'm sorry those.

Are demonically inspired pieces of music. You know i think those are people who um are under the control of it's called scream something. Uh scream metal or something like that. Yeah i've i've heard it and and i see i don't even really think that's music um but i think yes there are pieces of music that are and used in that setting.

Um can i say that all music. I just think any power that music has over us mentally and emotionally is brought into it by either the person who creates creates it with with that in mind or whatever is in the person listening in their life that they culturally bring to it.

Also i just don't i i just don't believe that actual harmonies rhythms and melodies have a spiritual power to them. Does that make sense. Yes i agree with the spiritual.

Power part but i do believe they create moods. I i don't even think that it necessarily has to be a learned thing. Uh i think that there could be uh you know there's there's. I think there's a reason.

For instance the military uses certain beats for uh military music and and uh performers that are intending to be sensual use specific rhythms and so on. Uh i don't know if we have to learn to associate those things with the intended moods.

I mean i'm not a scientist i'm not a musicologist.

I don't i don't know. Yeah. And i was reading the other day how that beethoven loved the key of c minor. Um and this this one person in the 1800s wrote a book about the various keys and what emotions and moods each of their keys meant.

I can listen to some of that if i had never read that at the same time with that as well. I think it but i think a lot has to. You're in the tool. And what type of environment you listen them into. Listening them to.

What types of feelings you're having when you listen to them. What type of emotional things you're going through. I think those contribute so much as well. I think the heart of the person listening uh uh attaches itself sometimes to what they're hearing musically and i think that can help arouse things because i think.

Ultimately we're responsible for our heart in all of this. By the way our list. I was just about to say ted in tuscaloosa alabama one of our listeners said he believes it's called screech rock the type of music you were thinking.

Uh it's. It's awful. It's not really screech metal right.

Yeah yeah it's just it's just demonic type responses and and so. But see i don't those type of discussions because i don't know the answer totally but those don't even enter into.

My thoughts about christian music. Right. Well unfortunately it does with other people. Uh one one thing that to me. Go ahead. I'm sorry. Continue brother. The issue is.

What what what is going to edify and cause people to be more sanctified in christ. To me that is the biggest issue as someone in a church outside the church i have freedom to listen to things but i still have to be someone who's who's approaching sanctification.

So the question of sanctification is still in my mind as an individual when it comes to what i listen to music wise so that addresses some of those issues too. How can i be becoming more christ-like by listening to music that maybe i don't identify sin with it but other people do.

One thing that occurred to me in fact it occurred to me today and i don't think i ever thought of it before uh. But i wonder the people who are really strong advocates of of anything goes in regard to music in a church service a worship service i wonder how they would react if the pastor was to begin to preach screaming at them at the top of his lungs every single word phrase sentence until the sermon was over without any without any change in tone or volume.

Or if the pastor ascended into the podium and started speaking in very sensual tones like barry white or someone i mean you could go on and on somebody's speaking like red skelton in a very goofy comical voice.

Uh you know what if if the person who is preaching it shouldn't do that why would it not matter if people singing and performing music shouldn't do that.

Whether they do that or not right again i think become an imitator of christ. We ask about a lot of things in our life. Music is one of them we need to ask about as well. And tv movies all that sort.

Congregational Singing, Music, and Sanctification

Right we have to get to our midway break right now. It's our longer than normal break because grace life radio 90 .1 fm in lake city florida requires of us a 12 minute break between our two hours. Please take this time not only to write down the information of our advertisers that's very important but also uh write in a question to our guest phil webb at chris arnzen gmail .com.