Calvin Robinson on Anglicanism and Courage

Conversations That Matter

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:12

Hey everyone, welcome once again to the Conversations That Matter podcast. I'm your host, John Harris. Very excited for a conversation that we're going to have today with someone that, frankly, when

00:22

I reached out to him, I wasn't sure if I was going to be able to get him to come on the podcast, not because he's busy or anything, but just because I figured he's kind of a big name.

00:31

In this podcast, of course, we do have a number of evangelical listeners here in the United States, but we're going to go outside of that tradition a little bit today to talk to Reverend Calvin Robinson.

00:41

Thank you for joining me, Reverend. John, it's my absolute pleasure. Thank you for the invitation. Of course, I'm not too busy to do your podcast at all.

00:48

Oh, well, it is flattering in a way and just, I don't know, it's weird watching you at the

00:54

Oxford Student Union, and I was so impressed with that. It's had millions of views, hasn't it? I mean, a lot of people have seen this.

01:00

It's crazy. It's about 4 million views at this point. It's ridiculous to me that that many people have watched it.

01:06

Okay, so I got to ask you first, before even introducing yourself, has that been a change to your life?

01:11

I mean, all this attention, has that changed your, I don't know, you have secretaries and an industry now built around you, or what's it like?

01:20

I don't think it's changed my life. On a day -to -day basis, I'm still doing the same things. I'm still doing half my time in public ministry, half my time in the parish ministry, and because day -to -day

01:30

I am quite busy. I just go from the next thing to the next thing to the next thing, and I don't know what I'm doing tomorrow. I look at the calendar for today, and I get on with those things.

01:37

So I don't really have that much time to focus on the bigger picture. Where it has made a difference is that more people recognize me in public.

01:45

So I've always had people recognize me in public because of the work that I do, but now more people do, and wherever I go, even in different countries, and that's very strange to me, but it's nice because people are always lovely, and people are always wanting to share their love for the

01:58

Lord, and so it's not really about me at all, and that's quite reassuring. That is one of the things that I love about you, and I have listened to a few interviews with you where you really do put the focus back on Christ, and I appreciate that so much.

02:12

Why don't you just tell everyone a little bit about what you do? Obviously you are a reverend, but you have a show, you have a platform of some kind now.

02:21

Right. So I have a church in Halston in northwest London. I'm the minister in charge there of a regular

02:28

Anglican community, which is fantastic, and so I do that for half of my time, and the other half of my time

02:34

I have a TV show on a channel called GB News, a show called

02:40

Calvin's Common Sense Crusade, where we try to look at current events from a faith perspective, and I'm really honored to have been gifted this platform, and I do think it is a gift from God to proclaim his truth, and very rarely do we see

02:54

Christianity in the public square these days, so I make it my job, my duty, to kind of make sure that I bring that Christian perspective wherever I can.

03:03

Where can people go if they want to check that out? If you're abroad, you can go on YouTube and go to GB News, and then there's a playlist called

03:12

Calvin's Common Sense Crusade. If you're in the UK, you can watch it on GB News, the channel, or you can get the app.

03:18

There's an app as well. It airs at 7 p .m. GMT on a

03:23

Saturday. Now, the denomination you're part of is different than—it's not the—I'm confused because I'm not in the

03:33

Anglican or Episcopal world, but it's the Free Anglican Church, is that correct? Right, so I'm not in the

03:38

Church of England, I'm in the Free Church of England, but yeah, we're part of the wider Anglican Communion. I'm in communion with 85 % of Anglicans around the world, just not necessarily the

03:48

Church of England, which is the church that I came up in, that I left them last year. So this is something that I think needs to be explained to people in the

03:56

United States, particularly those who are evangelical, but they love watching the Prince Charles become

04:03

King Charles, and I mean, there's an enamoration with the royal family and so forth, and we think of—you said 85 % of the

04:10

Anglican world you're in communion with, but not the Church of England. We think of the Church of England as that is the

04:16

Anglican world, so explain that. Yeah, I know, it becomes synonymous with Anglicanism because it's the birthplace of Anglicanism, the word

04:23

Anglican means from England, right? It's the English expression of the Catholic faith, it is just English Christianity.

04:30

And of course, throughout the empire, we spread Christianity all around the world, and in that flavor, in that tradition of Anglicanism.

04:37

So it's quite common in most of the African continent, quite a lot of the Asian continent, all around the world, and especially in the

04:45

West, you know, Canada, North America, and Australia, New Zealand. But the

04:52

Church of England, whilst it started Anglicanism, isn't Anglicanism, it's a part of it. And actually, for a lot of us, for 85 % of us all around the world, we'd actually say it's probably become apostate at this point, unfortunately.

05:05

And that's really, I think, what prompted me to want to have you on, because other denominations are dealing with these same issues.

05:10

In fact, I don't know of a denomination that's not dealing with the issues that have, perhaps, at a greater speed, in some ways, taken over the

05:19

Church of England. But what happened, I guess, is the question, because you have the colonies, former colonies, seeming to retain a better grasp on Orthodox Christian doctrine than the place where it originated.

05:34

And that's, it's just a curious thing, that the place that so much good doctrine, in fact, I have right here on my shelf,

05:40

I have the 1662 Book of Common Prayer. Oh, very sound. So, yeah, and I read that now more than I do any of the

05:47

Puritan things. Don't tell anyone. But I have a local... Do you pray the offices with it, daily morning prayer?

05:53

I'm not quite there yet. I am considering that. This is very new to me. So it's part of my heritage.

06:00

I mean, my family going back, but there is a local Episcopal reverend who

06:06

I've had on the podcast, who's one of the most conservative ones in the denomination. But of course, he's ostracized here in New York.

06:15

And he gave this to me. And as I started reading it, I just thought, this is absolutely beautiful. So I am on the path to incorporating more of that into my life.

06:24

But anyway, there's such a rich history, I guess, is the question. How can you go from... You know, this is beautiful.

06:30

I don't understand how this is in a church, and it guides in the 39 Articles guide.

06:35

And yet, what happened? Well, firstly, that is beautiful. I think the

06:41

Book of Common Prayer contributed to the English language just as much as Shakespeare.

06:47

The only thing that's contributed more is the Bible itself, the King James Bible. I think it's become part of our culture.

06:53

But also on a prayer side of things, if I can leave you with one thing, it's please pray the morning and evening prayer just for a while, and let it take hold of you and see what that does for your prayer life.

07:03

Because one of the things, I mean, one of the richness of the

07:09

Book of Common Prayer is that we pray even when we don't want to pray. And for people that are divorced from liturgical or more ritualistic traditions, you know, people tend to pray when they feel like praying and tend to have that conversation with God when it best suits them.

07:21

But actually, we're supposed to have that conversation with God at all times, we're supposed to pray ceaselessly. And I think having a life that's rooted in a prayer routine, like Matins and Evensong or morning and evening prayer is very helpful for that.

07:32

So I really recommend that. But in answer to your question, what went wrong? We lost that authority, we forgot to return to that authority.

07:40

So the Book of Common Prayer is our catechism. We've got the, so this is part of our Anglican formularies.

07:46

We've got the ordinal within that book, for the ordering of priests, deacons and bishops. We've got the

07:52

Book of Homilies. And we've got the 39 Articles, which are also in that book. So it's our grounding, it is our authority.

08:00

And without that, we're just loose, nonconformist, just, you know, do what you want, where you want, when you want.

08:06

And that's what's happened. Liberalism has taken hold of the church because we forgot to return. So where Roman Catholics have the

08:11

Magisterium as their authority, the Anglicans had the Book of Common Prayer and the

08:16

Anglican formularies as their authority. And so we've ditched them. And now liberals have taken over.

08:23

And to make this clear for people listening who probably are right now, alarms are going off in their minds.

08:29

The Bible, as always, has been the final authority in the Anglican tradition, right? Yes. Yes. The Bible is our authority as Christians.

08:36

Absolutely. But it's about how do we, how do we interpret those scriptures? So what do we, what lens do we look at the

08:42

Bible through or from? Because if we all, I mean, we could all pick up a Bible, we could all read the same verse, it will come to different interpretations.

08:48

And that's the error of trying to be Christians by ourselves because we fall into error and heresy and that's how we get led astray.

08:57

And so we need, we need, well, the big C church, we need Christ's body on earth to help us interpret his revealed word so that we don't get lost.

09:07

And since we're fallen and since we're all sinners, we need some kind of anchor to pull us together.

09:14

And that means we need an earthly lens for which to look at the scriptures through.

09:20

And for Anglicans, that is our Anglican formularies and obviously for Roman Catholics, it's the visible church.

09:28

And I think that's, that's important to, but you're right to point out that we believe in the primacy of scripture. Right. And this is the strength in a confessional denomination, that you have these, these things that are supposed to anchor you and root you and you can't get off on your own reading the

09:42

Bible in such an unusual way that is innovative and no one else before read it that way.

09:48

However, it hasn't really worked to hedge against the modernity.

09:54

Really, that's what we're dealing with, right? This isn't just LGBT. This is just modernity. And, and that's one of the questions

10:01

I think many Protestants, non -Anglican Protestants have is, was the weakness in putting too much weight in the confessions or where, where's the problem?

10:12

Because all the main lines seem to have gone off the deep end long before, at least in the United States, evangelical denominations.

10:18

I don't know if you've thought about that or have an answer for that. Yeah, I don't believe that. I think that's a falsehood because we've always, the word evangelical has always been synonymous with conservative.

10:27

But over the last few decades, actually that's slipped away because the evangelicals have gone liberal too. And the problem here isn't the confessional faith or not confessional faith or mainline or not mainline.

10:37

The problem here is westernization. And you're right, it's modernization too. It's the West that has gone liberal.

10:43

So 85 % of the Anglican communion is still Orthodox because 85 % of the

10:48

Anglican communion is outside of the West. And this is the issue. When you go to places on the

10:54

African continent, you go to Southeast Asia, you go to what they call the global South, you find Christians are still adhering to the creeds, to the ordinals, to what you call confessional.

11:04

They're sticking to it. In the West, we have found new idols, we found new gods, and we are following them instead.

11:11

So being part of the broad Anglo, I guess, Protestant tradition, which I would be coming from a more

11:17

Baptistic setting, but of course, you trace it back and you're going to get into Anglicanism eventually. I do have, as Paul, I think, said, a yearning in my heart for my kinsmen according to the flesh in a way.

11:30

I mean, it breaks my heart that England is going the way it is. And I see the same in the United States. And I'm celebrating the fact that 85 % of the non -Western world is retaining

11:41

Orthodoxy and Anglicanism. And not that I don't care about them, but I do have this extra layer of care that I think the

11:48

Lord has endowed me with for my own heritage going back. And I want to see those people reached.

11:55

And there's the really the question, and this is bigger than just Anglicanism. This goes to every tradition.

12:01

As you said, rightly, the evangelicals are going the same direction. Can it be retaken? Can the West be retaken for Orthodoxy and Christianity?

12:09

And if so, how? I actually think it might be too late, because the West was built on Christian foundations. And we got entitled, we got arrogant.

12:17

We thought we could do it without the faith. We thought, you know, we'd reach post -Enlightenment and even we're not even sticking to the

12:23

Enlightenment anymore. We've reached post -truth. We've reached a point where we have created gods of ourselves.

12:28

We don't need God anymore. And I'm obviously using the royal we, I don't mean us in particular. But the

12:33

West has reached a point where it is so self -righteous and so self -centered that it thinks,

12:41

I mean, to break this down a little bit, for example, morals. We know that the West's moral values are based on Christianity.

12:47

We know that the constitution of the United States and the unwritten constitution of the United Kingdom are built on the

12:53

Bible. We know that our laws, our common law is founded on the Ten Commandments. And then to strip that away and say, actually, well, you don't need a faith to have morals.

13:02

I have morals anyway, which is what you hear a lot of people say in modern Western civilization. They're forgetting where those moral values come from.

13:08

And that's with every walk of life, not just morals. We forget where our society, where our civilization comes from.

13:13

And so we've stripped away Christ. We've removed Christ from the situation. Therefore, the West is crumbling because without the foundation, you cannot stand.

13:21

And so I don't think we deserve, actually, for the West to stand. I think the West needs to crumble so that whatever rises in its place will be better and more faithful and Christian again.

13:31

And we'll perhaps remember this time around that if we're going to build a society on Christian foundations, we need to adhere to the

13:38

Christian faith. OK, so that being said, and I agree with you, that means we have to walk through the fire, so to speak.

13:45

What do you what advice do you have, especially for young men who are now realizing that there's this rich tradition that they've been, as it were, held back from and now they're rediscovering it and they want to they're motivated.

13:58

They want to make sure that they can protect the things that are true and valuable. And and to hear that it's going to have to crumble,

14:06

I think that what do you tell them to do with the time we have left? Well, first of all, to remember that it doesn't matter because we have hope as Christians and that's something that other people do not have, especially atheists and secular people, but also to stick to the book, follow the book, read the book, but live the book, live

14:25

God's truth. And that means, you know, if we're talking to young men in particular, get married young, start a family, raise them to worship

14:33

God, provide and protect for your wife and your family, be a servant to your wife and and to raise them to be servants to the

14:40

Lord. It's quite simple, really, but a lot of people have forgotten to do that these days. So if you are doing it, you're going to be standing strong in the faith and that's going to be first of all, you'll be rewarded for that.

14:51

But secondly, that is going to be the thing that brings us all together as Christians when the rest of society crumbles away. The Christians will stand united in their faith and their love for Christ.

15:00

So I notice you didn't say get online, start trolling the left and go lift weights. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but but you're saying actually do these tangible things in real relationships, be a man at home.

15:13

You've been a man, I would say, an example of masculinity in the

15:19

Anglican tradition, I suppose, recently for your very public stands. What I'm just curious, what inspired you to take this stand?

15:29

Because you're not doing any favors for yourself as far as being. I'm sure you're being ostracized and you're looked at in negative ways, but you decided to do this anyway.

15:39

Yeah, I just reported some emails this morning, actually, that. Well, I can't even reproduce what they said about the

15:47

N -word and all this kind of nasty stuff. You attract a lot of negative attention when you proclaim the truth.

15:53

But this is what we're called to do, right? We're called as Christians to disciple the nations. It's the Great Commission, and it's not just for certain individuals, it's for all of us.

16:01

And again, that's another thing we've forgotten as Christians, not just to proclaim the gospel and not just to live the gospel, but to be a

16:09

Christian outwardly, overtly. It's not something that we keep private and just do on a Sunday morning, or it's not something we just, as much as we are called to pray in private in our own rooms, it's not just for that area, it's for the entirety of our lives.

16:23

And if more people saw Christians out in the public square being Christians and saying things that Christians believe, it wouldn't be seen as a strange thing anymore.

16:31

When I go on TV and say marriage is between one man and one woman, the reason I'm attacked so heavily is because people aren't used to hearing that anymore.

16:37

But that's a common knowledge, you know, that's what the faith has taught us for thousands of years. But it's also what people used to recognize as the truth.

16:46

And unless people recognize the truth and proclaim the truth publicly, it will become a foreign entity. I got to ask you about the

16:53

Oxford Student Union video, since that one's picked up the most steam, as far as I know, and really puts you on the map as someone who opposes homosexual marriage and so forth.

17:05

I'm curious, it's just interesting in a university setting, they allowed you to come in and say those things.

17:11

And maybe that gives me a little hope. Maybe it shouldn't. I don't know. In America, I don't think that would happen. But is there still some freedom to proclaim these things in the university setting in Great Britain?

17:23

Just about. So the Oxford Union have cancelled people before, before and after my speech.

17:30

It just so happens that the chairman that they had at the time believed in free speech. And before my debate, he opened by saying, you know, he received a lot of letters from people saying that this was beyond reproach and this shouldn't be a topic for debate.

17:43

And he said, no, this very union was founded on the idea of not just free speech, but theological debate.

17:48

So it's important that we adhere to that. So I'm very thankful that he did. But I think that the Lord probably used him in that way to make sure that the conversation happened where other conversations haven't been as fortunate.

18:00

Interesting. OK, and that has been mostly the springboard, I would assume, that's gotten you noticed and invited on to other programs to talk about these things, right?

18:10

Somewhat. Yeah, somewhat. Now, I'm trying to think where all I've seen you.

18:16

I know you've been on some some cable news shows and so forth to talk about that. Have you seen any receptivity, not just in political conservative areas, but have you seen maybe some spiritual hope here?

18:31

Have people maybe realized, man, the church has gone way farther to the left than I ever thought.

18:38

I can't believe it. And it's it's prodded them now to even reconsider Christianity, maybe atheists who just thought, well, this has always been an anchor in the society that we have an advantage in that we gain advantages from.

18:54

And yet it's going the way of the dodo bird. I don't know if I want that anymore.

18:59

Maybe I'll become a Christian. And your example, I would just assume you'd be in a position to be hearing those stories more than other people.

19:06

So for that particular example, yes, I receive letters and emails and DMs from people saying things like they've picked up a

19:14

Bible for the first time in years or they're going back to church or they don't want to go back to church because it's too late.

19:20

What can they do? So lots of those kinds of conversations. But it's not just from that. You know, on my TV show every single week, there's something just ridiculous that's happening in the news that I cover from a teacher being fired for not calling a girl a boy when it's clearly a girl or or from just drag queens reading to young children or the sexualized curriculum of teaching five -year -olds to masturbate.

19:46

Some people are seeing so much absurdity around them that they're starting to believe in evil. They're finding

19:51

God through the rapid amount of evil around them. That's so interesting. One of the websites

19:57

I'm involved with, TruthScript .com, we ran an article the other day about red states and blue states in the United States, red states being more conservative.

20:04

And there's this mass migration of people who aren't sure they want to be as far left as some of the displays they noticed in 2020.

20:13

And so they've moved to these red states and some of them are actually converting to Christianity. And they never would have thought of it before.

20:18

But I think it's, as you say, they've seen evil now and they realize it exists. In the

20:23

Democratic Party. In the Democratic Party specifically. Yeah, there's plenty of it in the Republicans. But yes.

20:29

Sure. I mean, but look, it's just ridiculous, isn't it? The state of California right now is absolutely absurd.

20:35

This used to be a beautiful place and they've destroyed it with these policies. But they keep pushing them further and further.

20:40

And of course, people are seeing it now. People's eyes are opening. They're shipping out to Florida and Texas. Rightly so.

20:45

If I was in the States, that's where I'd be. Yeah. And I'm from California originally. So it hits home for me.

20:51

Sorry. No, it's all right. I always thought of going back there. My grandma was actually a very proud native Californian.

20:56

She doesn't talk that way anymore. She's realized it's gotten bad. But it's very obvious, though, isn't it?

21:02

That the devil works through half truths, right? It never works throughout blatant lies. He always twists the truth. And this we see the enemy in places like California and these rules when they say, you know, we're no longer going to prosecute people for shoplifting.

21:12

And they paint it as a compassionate thing. It's like because, of course, everyone wants to help the poor. Of course we do.

21:18

It's part of our Christian nature. And of course, if people can't afford something, we should find a way for them to have it. But the twist there is let them take it and have no consequences.

21:26

Going against the two of the commandments on private property and theft. Not forgetting. So it's always an affront towards God.

21:32

But the idea there is that to be compassionate, you have to fall in line with this left wing policy. And the result of the left wing policy is that theft is rampant.

21:40

Businesses are closing down. They can't afford or they've got really high security everywhere. And people are being hurt because people are taking what they want and being violent towards shopkeepers and stuff.

21:49

And it's creating hell. It's creating hell on earth through the through a false impression of compassion.

21:55

This is the enemy. Yes, I couldn't agree more. There are a few questions that I want to bring to you from patrons who knew that you were going to come on this podcast and sent them to me.

22:07

So the first one is from Ed. How how are you received in the I kind of already asked this, but the

22:13

United Kingdom in general, not just the church and of others come out in support of you since you made your public statements on same sex marriage.

22:20

I think you might have answered that. But if you have any further to say on it. Yeah, just that people need to be bolder.

22:26

The thing that really disappoints me is how shy people are, especially Christians. In my Oxford Union speech, there was no support there.

22:34

All the floor speeches were against me. Most of them were ad hominem attacking me. It was an awful experience. Right. And as I leave, people are quietly,

22:41

I agree with you. But obviously I'm not going to say anything. What are you afraid of? They're not going to turn around and kill you.

22:47

You know, what's the work I'm going to do? Look at you differently. Good. We're supposed to be looked at differently as Christians. It was said that we would be persecuted and we'll be blessed because we're persecuted.

22:55

It was said that he was hated before us. I remember that if we are hated, all of this is prophesied.

23:01

Like people have to follow the faith. And this is the one thing that really riles me up. It's not just Christians.

23:06

It's also conservatives that say, yeah, I agree with you on family values. You know, that's what that's what we've always been taught.

23:12

But I can't say anything because because what say something otherwise you are letting that you're conceding ground.

23:18

You're letting the enemy win. Yeah, this is the exact same dynamic that I'm seeing in the United States. And in my circles,

23:25

I went to a Southern Baptist seminary. But I came out and just briefly, not because it isn't about me, but I just want to relate to what you're saying.

23:32

And I made a video saying this is what's happening at my seminary. It's going woke. And I had people from all over the denomination.

23:39

It's the largest Protestant body in the United States reach out to me saying it's happening here. It's happening here.

23:44

Thank you for saying something. And I was the only one at the time that was really publicly saying anything about it.

23:49

I was just shocked. So I don't know what that is. There's a cowardice, though. You're right. And if we serve a God who is all powerful, who's given us these brave examples of men and women in the past,

23:59

I don't understand why this is such a hard thing. He'll provide for us. He's provided for you. He's provided for me.

24:05

Yeah, because we've had it too easy for too long. It goes back to us being entitled and arrogant. You know, Christians used to have to die for their faith.

24:11

And now there are no consequences for being a Christian. Therefore, no one has to fight to be a Christian. Therefore, they're not prepared to fight to be a

24:18

Christian. Yeah. Another question. This is from Lynn. Uh, what do you think the future holds for the church of England under Charles?

24:26

History seems to predict that a biblical remnant will continue to survive with the UK portion of the church.

24:31

Are we past the point? And the only hope is in Africa. Kind of already answered that too. What about the church of Scotland?

24:38

No, this church of Scotland is woke and gone as well. And so is the church in Wales. Um, the church of England, I think will probably die out in the next 10 to 15 years.

24:47

However, the church in England, big C church, the remnant will always survive. The church will never die. Christ will never let his church die.

24:53

So I don't really worry if the institution of the CV implodes. So be it. I see that as probably part of the divine plan.

25:01

Uh, and this is just for my own curiosity. I mean, is there a way you think other denominations that are truly

25:06

Christian can take these, these buildings, these beautiful buildings? I would hate to see them all turned into apartment complexes or things like that.

25:14

So would I. It's something I'm working on personally, trying to solve that problem. I don't know how we do because these buildings are soaked in generations of prayer.

25:21

I think they're important spaces, but maybe we have to do away with them. Maybe that's part of the problem that we're so attached to these worldly earthly things.

25:30

And that's, that's why a lot of good Orthodox priests are still keeping quiet because they want to maintain what they've got.

25:36

And we have to do away with a lot of that sometimes and just walk forward in the faith. Yeah. Wow. All right.

25:42

Uh, uh, Kofi asks this, uh, how are you received now? You kind of answered this too in the UK. Um, let's see now let's skip that one.

25:50

You already answered that one. Um, here's Jake. Jake wants to know, um, it seems clear we need to build a system of rewards to incentivize

25:58

Orthodox behavior. What do you suggest? And I think this is actually a brilliant question because the left has their, their rewards already set up.

26:05

You don't have to risk your career. You're going to be platformed and promoted if you go along with their degeneracy.

26:11

And yet, uh, I think as you rightly said, people are hiding in the corner when it comes to supporting the truth.

26:17

So how do we, um, is there a way to incentivize Orthodox, uh, behavior?

26:23

We've been granted the best reward possible, eternal salvation. If we follow

26:28

God's plan, if we follow God's law, then that's what we get, right? If we're baptized in water and the

26:33

Holy spirit, and we have faith in God, if we repent of our sins and follow him, we are rewarded with eternal salvation.

26:39

If we follow the woke lot, we might keep our job a bit longer and, or keep some friends who aren't really friends.

26:45

If they're really friends with us because of our politics, if we follow, if we disregard the woke lot, they might try and cancel us.

26:51

If we disregard God, we burn in eternal hell. I mean, the rewards and sanctions structure is far better on our side, but people just,

27:00

I suppose they need to be stronger in their faith. And that is, uh, an issue with modernity, I guess, there's thinking in the temporary and not considering the eternal.

27:10

And, um, uh, one of the other questions Jake asked is what is the laity's role in defending or retaking their churches?

27:16

The layman do. Oh, the layman. Yeah. Um, fundamental.

27:21

I mean, especially over here because the parish council holds all the power, really, um, it's, it's an upside down hierarchy system that people think the bishops control everything actually.

27:31

It's the parish councils, uh, who select the vicars and kind of, um, set what's going to happen in their church.

27:39

So they are the ones that need to take back control. And it's the same as schools, you know, school governors.

27:45

It's the same with all these bodies. It's the people that are at the bottom that actually hold a lot of the control, but don't follow through with it.

27:52

There aren't, they're not holding people to account. So governors hold your headteachers to account. Uh, PCCs hold your vicars to account, encourage them to hold their bishops to account.

28:00

And for the layman that aren't involved in these governing bodies, get involved. If you are an Orthodox Christian and your church has a governing body, get elected onto that governing body.

28:10

I'd like to, uh, maybe explore a little bit, the source of your own strength, because what you're saying means we need more men who are willing to stand up.

28:18

Uh, people in general, but I think specifically of masculinity, uh, people who, um, in times past would have stood up to defend the truth.

28:26

And now they're, they're not. You have decided to do that. And I know you mentioned that you put, you pray in the morning and evening from the book of common prayer.

28:34

I mean, our, our spiritual disciplines, part of the recipe, I think that, uh, that, that strengthens you or what do you attribute your strength to?

28:42

To the Holy spirit. I mean, through our baptism, we're all, all gifted with the gifts of the

28:49

Holy spirits. And I just, I don't know why we don't rely on them more. Um, which is like you said, we're too focused on the temporal, not enough on the spiritual.

28:57

And we're, we're absolutely focused in this earthly life of Oz, this finite life we're obsessed with it.

29:04

And we need to break apart from that and focus on the bigger picture, focus on God a bit more. Um, it's not, none of this is novel.

29:11

None of this is particularly new, but it's, it's a lost art. I suppose, even in the dark ages, people understood that they had to focus on Christ more than their own personal lives.

29:21

We have become God's in our own lives. This whole, this whole woke movement is about self -identity and finding your inner self and becoming the true you.

29:31

And whether it's, you know, in the right body or just in the right frame of mind, it's all a nonsense. Our life is about finding

29:37

God. Our life is about heading towards Christ. It's all a distraction. So the, and also to,

29:43

I don't think I have a particular, um, in a strength. I don't think I, I don't know what it is that keeps me going other than him.

29:51

And I asked to be used as a vessel for him. And I worship and praise him as often as I can. Of course I fall like we all do, but it's about picking your cross back up and getting back on with it.

30:01

Yeah, that, no, that's beautiful. Uh, and I couldn't agree more that that is the thing that I noticed that the people who stand up tend to take their faith in God very seriously and they trust him and the

30:10

Holy spirit is working through them and mightily, um, for evangelicals in the United States, which

30:16

I think most of the audience that I have probably is composed of people that are, that are of that conviction that I'm sure there's some folks from across the spectrum, but, um, one of the things, and I just figured this is a little unrelated, but I would ask you about it.

30:31

One of the things I've noticed is there's a misunderstanding, I think of Anglican, um, beliefs.

30:37

And I don't know if this is because of Puritanism, which is very popular in the reformed evangelical world, especially.

30:43

Um, I don't know what it is. I haven't looked into it deeply enough, but, um, I might even get some people in the comments who are going to say that, uh,

30:53

I had someone on who thinks that, uh, the, the sacraments, the, uh, uh, communion is really the, uh, the, the, the,

31:01

I guess, transubstantiation. I'm trying to think how to even phrase this. Um, and I know that the

31:06

Anglican view is not actually transubstantiation. Uh, it's, it's a, uh, switch of spiritual presence or so forth.

31:12

Um, but they'll say things like hearing you talk about baptism that you think that, um, uh, getting wet is somehow you need to get wet in order to be saved.

31:21

And of course it's, it's faith. What do you do to respond to those things? I don't know if you get those objections ever in England.

31:26

I mean, I returned to the scriptures and the Bible says we need to be born again in water and the

31:32

Holy spirit is, but people always take that born again. But I said, you need to be, are you born again? You need to be born again. Yeah. What about the rest for finish the sentence?

31:38

There's people that cherry pick on scripture. That is the issue here. Um, in terms of baptism, you know,

31:46

John the Baptist said that Christ will come to baptize us in water and the

31:51

Holy spirit. So it's, yes, we do get wet, but why do we get wet? So if people think it's just get it, just a bit of water, then

31:57

I think they need to delve deeper into the, into the faith because the water is just the outward invisible sign of the inward invisible grace that we receive in our baptism.

32:06

And that's important. I mean, the scriptures tell us about the, in, in the new Testament and the old Testament about what the gifts, the seven gifts of the

32:14

Holy spirit are that we are graced with. Um, the problem we have with a lot of these things are purposeful miscommunications.

32:24

So I see this a lot between Protestants and Catholics in that Protestants believe that Catholics think certain things and Catholics and Protestants believe certain things, but they never actually delve into them.

32:33

They just have these misconceptions and say, oh, you're wrong because X, Y, Z. Like, well, first of all, return to the scripture. And second of all, look at what it is that they believe from their perspective, rather than what you think that they believe, you know, as an

32:43

Anglican, I think I'm somewhere in between Catholicism and Protestantism, but I think it's the via media, the middle way.

32:50

And, uh, some things I'll believe that Catholics believe some things. I believe that Protestants believe, and I can try to at least see both perspectives, but quite often they're shouting past each other and argue past each other.

33:03

Yeah, no, yeah, go ahead. Sorry. At the beginning, you know, you, you, you said, uh, should I call, I don't want to call your father because my audience is evangelical, but that's a prime example.

33:12

I said that off camera, but now everyone knows, but it's a prime example because within my tradition, we call people who are ordained father.

33:20

Right. As an Anglo Catholic now in the Roman Catholic church, it's only priests that get called father. So as a deacon, they wouldn't call me father.

33:27

So there are differences there, but, but even people say, well, what about in Matthew when it says call no man father, right?

33:32

Well, let's read that piece of scripture. I mean, let's not just take that one little bit of the sentence. Let's read the whole thing and figure out what

33:38

Christ is trying to say in that passage. First of all, it's about hypocrisy. He talks a lot about hypocrisy. Um, and it's about not claiming the highest chair, the highest seats.

33:47

It's about not claiming prestige. It's about not being proud. And it's about, so when we call ourselves father, we're doing in, in terms of service, we're saying,

33:58

I am serving you as your father. I'm here to be your teacher. I'm here to be your pastor.

34:03

I'm here to provide for you. I'm here to serve you and your community. I serve my church as a father. It does.

34:09

I wouldn't say it means literally that because literally don't call anyone father, because I call my father, my father as well.

34:15

And if we look into that piece of scripture as a whole, actually many people who put doctors such as such in their signature off committing the same sin that they would see people who call themselves father as committing.

34:28

So there's a double hypocrisy there. And I think the problem here is just delve deeper into the scriptures.

34:33

Always delve deeper. Yeah. And I have noticed that some of the surface level critiques, uh, just aren't helpful because there actually are differences between, um, well, in our case,

34:44

Protestantism and Roman Catholicism, but like over imputed and infused righteousness over some of the Marian, uh, things.

34:50

Um, but it, it, it doesn't, it's not as simple as, well, you just believe in works, which is what many of the

34:56

Protestants say, which is not quite accurate and a good, knowledgeable Catholic will be able to refute you fairly easily.

35:02

Uh, and, and, um, so I do, I wanted to let everyone know, I looked into these things cause

35:08

I had, when I said that I was going to have you on, I did have some people on, I think Facebook say, ask him about, uh,

35:14

Roman Catholicism and Anglican theology and so forth. So I did look into like article 27, which says exactly what you just said.

35:21

Uh, that it's a sign baptism is a sign of regeneration or new birth, which I mean, that that's Protestant theology.

35:26

That's not, uh, it's not saying that if you get wet, you're saved or that, you know, you must, uh, uh, that, that is a necessary component or so forth.

35:34

It's talking about a deep spiritual reality here. Um, at least that's how I'm reading it. Um, man,

35:40

I'd love to delve deeper with you into the Catholic stuff. Uh, I don't want to take up too much of your time though, since we've already been going for, um, almost 40, a little, almost 40 minutes now.

35:50

But, um, uh, I don't know if you have anything more to say on that because you said something interesting that you're halfway between, and I haven't heard this before.

35:59

So you're, you are an Anglican though, right? I'm an Anglican, a hundred percent in Anglican. Uh, but I see

36:05

Anglicanism as the English expression of the Catholic faith. And I would never describe myself as a

36:11

Protestant. Many Anglicans do. And I understand why, but for me, that's just that terminology just messes muddies the water too much.

36:17

Cause people get again, misconceptions about what that means. Cause I'm not against Catholicism. I think

36:23

Catholicism is the Christian faith. A Catholic just means universal and universal. Right.

36:28

And, and, you know, I, I adhere to the Catholic creeds, for example, the Nicene creed, the apostolic creed, the, the, the

36:36

Athanasian creed. These are part of our faith. And for me, the Anglican reformation, the

36:42

English reformation was quite different to European Protestantism, especially Luther and Calvin.

36:49

Um, and it, well, even they weren't particularly anti -Catholic cause they were quite Catholics themselves, but the

36:56

European Protestant movement became very anti -Catholic and they threw the baby out with the bathwater, which I think is a great mistake.

37:03

Um, whereas Anglicans was about re centering on Christ. It was about, okay, how do we return to the teachings of the church fathers?

37:10

How do we observe what Christ revealed to the apostles? How do we follow that and take that forward?

37:16

So not being obsessed with the past, but looking at our tradition as a route forward, rather than trying to reinvent something new.

37:24

Well, and that is what Luther was after initially, right? He was trying, he didn't think he was starting anything new, um, but trying to call the church back.

37:32

And when that didn't happen, then, well, inevitably, uh, so yeah, man, we could have a long discussion about that.

37:38

I want to land the plane though here, uh, if we can, um, and just talk a little bit about, we, we've been talking about courage.

37:45

We've been talking about the present situation, what you think is going to happen, um, you, you said your advice to young men was to basically get married, have children, take your responsibilities at home, uh, seriously.

37:57

Um, what advice do you have for people aspiring pastors?

38:02

Because when you sign up to be a pastor now, I think you sign up to, you're, you're enlisting in a war and you're have a big target on your back.

38:10

Um, I, I know a number of young pastors and, and, and laymen actually who are stepping up to say, you know what?

38:17

We don't have a solid church in this area that believes in things like biblical sexuality. I'm going to start that church or I'm going to take over this church.

38:24

Um, they, sometimes they don't know what they're in for though. And what is the spiritual battle been like for you?

38:29

What can people expect? What should they prepare for? I mean, I think the spiritual battle is, is the same for the laity as the clergy.

38:37

Um, I think in terms of advice for young, uh, pastors, I would say find someone you can trust.

38:45

Um, you know, it's important to have a spiritual director. It's important to have someone who you can give your accountability to someone who to hold you to account that you, you give that you grant them that trust because the punishment for false teachers is worse than the punishment for everyone else, right?

39:01

That we're told we're going to be judged harsher than everyone else. And for, for good reason, because we can lead the flock astray.

39:07

So we need to make sure that we are kept on the right track and we can't do it by ourselves. Avoid the temptations of,

39:14

I mean, I don't know, I don't know what the non -mainland church structures are, but quite often I understand that they're quite individual and, and, you know, set people set up by themselves.

39:22

And that leads to the possibility of the pastor being almost idolized in some ways.

39:30

And there are so many dangers around that. There's so many temptations to sin that it's important to, to prepare yourself for them and put the structures in place for you to protect you and your flock.

39:40

Yeah, I think that's excellent advice. Uh, yeah, too many people, uh, that get into ministry end up becoming almost autonomous unto themselves and it's a recipe for, for failure.

39:51

Um, well, any final thoughts or, uh, places that you want to send people, uh, websites or anything?

39:59

Um, my website is calvinrobinson .com on there, all my social media links. Uh, you can watch my

40:04

TV show on YouTube and on the app. Uh, but final parting advice, I would say, um, read, read the scriptures daily.