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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one And now with today's topic here is

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James White And welcome to the dividing line music just sort of disappeared they're not sure what that was all about This and then that and there's just a professional the

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Union tell you do that It's a right -to -work state

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Well, welcome to the dividing line before we get back to the Barker Wilson debate This afternoon on the program.

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I wanted to talk about further evidence that yes I am a human being and I make errors

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Turretin fan drew my attention to one such error this morning and He would the man's a machine.

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I don't I don't know how he cranks out the amount of material that he does He must not sleep Russians are like that but anyway

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You didn't know he was a Russian. I think he's Russian. We sometimes argue about you know, cuz he's you know, the unknown mystery, dude so but I've got him pegged he's definitely

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Russian and Probably former KGB in hiding or something like that. But anyway, you know, even

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Russians can make good Calvinist Lord can take anybody but anyhow, I pointed out to me that I Have made a mistake

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In a citation of Basil of Caesarea, I have cited Philip Schaaf Summarizing what

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Basil said it's almost in the exact same words, but it is Philip Schaaf and not Basil of Caesarea and specifically it is the following words got carefully to examine whether the doctrine offered us is

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Conformable to Scripture and if not to reject it Nothing must be added to the inspired words of God all that is outside scripture is not of faith

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But it's sin now that's Schaaf and he is in essence Restating what is found in a

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This particular reference. This is from the aesthetical works the morals rule 8 chapter 22

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Specifically what is the mark of a Christian faith working by charity? What is the mark of faith a sure conviction of the truth the inspired words?

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Not to be shaken by a process of reasoning nor by the alleging of natural requirements nor by the pretenses of false piety

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What is the mark of a faithful soul? To be in those dispositions of full acceptance on the authority the words of Scripture not venturing to reject anything nor making additions

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For if all that is not of faith is sin as the Apostle says and faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the

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Word of God everything outside Holy Scripture not being of faith is sin likewise his commentary on rule 72

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Concerning the hearers that those hearers who are instructed in the scriptures should examine what is said by the teachers receiving what is conformity with the scriptures and Rejecting what is opposed to them and that those who persist in teaching such doctrines should be strictly avoided now

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I don't know how I got Schaaf mixed up with Basel. It's there's a number of different possibilities

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If you're using electronic copies, sometimes it's difficult to see which is which whatever it might be.

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It's an error and I note the error and admit the error. However, I want to use this to draw a distinction between How people handle things like this?

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first of all, there is no question that Schaaf is appropriately and accurately

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Paraphrasing and summarizing what Basel said there's no question about that Anyone who reads

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Basel knows that he made that that kind of argumentation not in just these citations, but in others as well I remember having a debate with a

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Roman Catholic apologist and scholar in Austin, Texas back in the early 1990s and it wasn't this part wasn't recorded because it was between the two debates, but he made a comment about Basel to me and and I said have you read the context of that and We looked into the context of it and it was pointing out that that this current this quote he had used from Basel to try to refute mine

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Wasn't actually in a context that wasn't talking about dogmas talking about practices. He he as a teaching scholar had not actually looked at the context of Basel so maybe

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I thought that what I had there was just a different translation of the earlier citation doesn't matter It was an error but it does not in any way impact anything that we have said concerning Basel's view of the sufficiency of Scripture and how far out of conformity with modern

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Roman Catholicism his sentiments are and Unlike the history of the Roman Church Where not only was it a matter of someone making a mistake in a citation?

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It was a matter of people making up not only citations, but making up entire works

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Do I need to say much more than the donation of Constantine? Do I need to make reference to the pseudo is a

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Dorian decretals? The fact that the large portion large portion a small portion not a few little isolated quotes

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But a large portion literature upon which the entire Pretensions of the papal see were based during medieval times were completely spurious.

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They were made up it wasn't oh I I quoted from the introduction rather these were completely made up and The ideas in them were not to be found in the original writers

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Now look at the modern situation Look at for example the recent situation where turrets and fan has pointed out

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That modern Roman Catholic apologists will throw everything, but the kitchen sink at you, and they just don't care whether it's truthful or not

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You know we look at pseudo apologists like Steve Ray and there is nothing too low for Steve Ray to do or to say to promote

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Romanism there just isn't and He will not defend himself when he is demonstrated to be an error

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He just simply mocks those who have demonstrated his error and then runs off to Israel or Greece or wherever else

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He's dragging little old ladies around and getting their money from them While showing them around saying this is where this happened.

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That's what happened So we documented for example the 33 ,000 denominations myth or fable

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Do you think that's gonna stop Roman Catholic apologists from using it? No of course not even though the documentations right there

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It is simply a lie a bold -faced lie to accuse sola scriptura

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With producing Mormonism or Jehovah's Witnesses or any of these others It they'll they'll continue doing it and and without any shame turns a fan pointed out the abuse of Pseudo -athanasius in regards to promoting the idea of Mary as the

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Ark of the Covenant and Is there any recognition on their part of this?

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No, there's wide wild -eyed Defense of these things. Well, it's possible.

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It might have been this and it's possible. It might have been that and you know We just really don't know I am truly reminded of The lengths to which

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Roman Catholics especially will go To find anything that is amenable to the dogmatic positions of later

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Roman Catholicism The the the early church is just putty in their hands

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There's there's no attempt whatsoever To honestly and accurately represent the context of any of these writers at all

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Any source is good I mean They're forced into this because let's face it the especially the Marian dogmas such as those being defended by the citation of pseudo -athanasius

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The Marian dogmas came from Gnosticism They're Gnostic in origin.

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They're not Christian in origin and so just I think the weekend before last someone in my church dropped me a line and somebody had thrown this quotation from a 13th or 14th century

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Coptic reference source that Some people believe goes back to the 3rd or 4th century about the

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Dormition of Mary and You know, you've got all these questions about this and then you read all the stuff into it and you ignore the fact

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It's a heretical doc document Angel Christology and Gnosticism and all the rest of the stuff, but oh look there's something about Mary here

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We can push the assumption of Mary back even farther now. Oh, isn't that wonderful? Yeah, it's from heretics, but who cares?

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It's there. Oh, yeah, you know and you just sit there and and you're you're in utter shock at what these people are willing to utilize as sources of information and so you compare the you know,

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I think of a The Envoy magazine situation where They did the anonymous hit piece on me that we've discussed a number of times and even then they used extremely questionable resources

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If you look at the Roman Catholic section on our website You'll see that I've written numerous articles where I've interacted with published materials from Karl Keating and others

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Where they will use the most highly questionable sources To find anything that is amenable with their allegedly universal tradition

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Why do you have to use such questionable sources when you claim to be the infallible church in the first place?

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never quite figured that out, but Anyways, there you go. So I think it's instructive that at least in this situation where I have made an error

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I've made an error citing someone who was summarizing Exactly what Basil Caesarea did say in regards to the sufficiency of Scripture It does not change any bit of argumentation whatsoever.

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It's still a mistake, but it's a mistake that does not change the argument But when you have people who are willing to use spurious

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Materials when you have a church that built its power on the basis of forged

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Documents where you had to write into the early church citations and quotations that they never themselves said inserting beliefs that they never themselves held

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I Remember, this is a name. I haven't used a long time Scott Butler the man who continues to hold the

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Pacwa debates for a hostage He's the one who has the videotapes of the first two

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Pacwa debates we did and Has hidden them away in a dark corner someplace. Maybe he's taped

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Seinfeld episodes over it by now or something like that. Who knows but Still call upon Scott Butler to release those tapes the world and let everybody else see them

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Of course, he admitted that the Roman Catholic side didn't win those debates So I guess that's what you do is you just suppress those videos and that happens.

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But anyways, I remember Scott Butler Throwing out in the Boston College stuff

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Some an Arabic version as I recall the cannons of Nicaea That had stuff added to it to try to make a point

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It is just there is no stopping point as to how far people will go

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Once they have wedded themselves to the authority of Rome. They just there's just There's nothing to stop anybody

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Along those lines it is Truly an amazing thing to observe.

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So there you go further evidence of my humanity and fallibility but once again,

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I think it's it is indicative and instructive to note that what

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I mistakenly ascribed to Basil of Caesarea is actually a very accurate summary of Exactly what

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Basil of Caesarea said in those that those citations which are in no way Questioned as being a representative of his position

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Unlike people like Steve Ray and others who just throw anything out there Hope it sticks and when challenged just simply insult the people who've exposed them and Like I said run off to Greece or Israel or whatever and we're just too busy to deal with things like that We have documented these things many many times.

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I remember the the videos I posted on YouTube Hopefully they're still there and haven't been removed for copyright violations

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Demonstrating that Steve Ray had grossly misused Athanasius Steve Ray's just uses secondary materials source materials anyways and and so when his understanding of those secondary materials is not overly good then he ends up blundering but That's just what happens with people like Steve Ray.

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So there's there is a public recommendation and Acknowledgement of an error that doesn't change absolutely anything that we were saying about Basil in fact, it just gave us the opportunity of reemphasizing once again the fact that the view of modern

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Roman Catholicism While it can be read back into anything if you want to engage in anachronism if you want to ignore

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What is really there? Was not in fact the viewpoint of the early church and that to those of us who believe in the perspicuity and Authority of Scripture and reject the later innovations of the

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Roman Catholic system as a perversion of the gospel Have a sound basis for so doing so with that said let's get back to the

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Barker Wilson debate we were in the cross -examination period and Doug Wilson was

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Had just said well, thank you for not answering that question and he was right and then we heard

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Dan Barker say that he had answered the question perfectly Well, he hadn't actually he was

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Dancing around a bit, but now Doug is going to press that advantage. Let's continue on Let me let me move the same situation to Oklahoma City which you brought up Why Given given the fact that there is no

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God and no objective morality You've just told us that morality is relative to the situation, but there is objective basis.

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I said for morality I didn't say there's no objective morality. Okay, what is that basis? It's it's nature.

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It's human nature and pain We we evolved to require water. For example, what if we get evolved to require?

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Something else like arsenic then this might be evil But relative to our human nature to what helps us and what's what either enhances our life or what causes harm for our life

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We can say relative to our human nature. This is something that's good. There is no Objective good.

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We also evolved. We also evolved a mechanism whereby we blow up our enemies So why was doing that in Oklahoma City wrong because that hurts it causes pain

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Now again, I think most people are really left Stuttering when they hear

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Dan Barker With with such a a paper -thin basis upon which to make his assertions.

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It causes pain So I mean here is a evolutionary naturalist all of nature causes pain

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Natural selection is based upon causing pain So, how can you say that's the basis of morality

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I mean from a naturalistic evolutionary perspective who cares if You're causing pain to somebody else means that your genotype will predominate over their genotype in the gene pool then you win and if that's the only goal of Evolution is that your genotype?

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Predominates over someone else's genotype then that makes it good, right? I mean if that's all there is and So you have this inconsistent atheism where well

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I don't like pain and so that becomes my my ultimate standard and Yeah that doesn't really flow from my view of the universe at all because pain is actually a part of you know natural selection and and the survival of the fittest actually it's the promotion of the genotype of the fittest but He who has the most kids wins in essence and Pains are relevant to any of that, but you know,

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I just want to just say that I'm a very caring person that's that's in essence what

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I'm hearing and Of course Doug Wilson isn't letting him get away with it If you don't grasp the simple idea that morality is an issue of avoiding pain

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Blowing up people in Oklahoma City was painful. It was tragic. It was hurtful Given you ought to know that there's something wrong with it

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Oh, I know there's something wrong with it But I only know it because there's a God the triune God for scripture You mean you would not it would not have dawned on you without the

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Bible that there's something wrong with killing I mean, you're so dumb that you couldn't have thought it through for yourself. Let me think about it.

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Do we really need? But do we really need these tablets from Mount Sinai to tell us there's something wrong with causing harm

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What happened what happened in Oklahoma City given your principles was nothing but the scattering of protoplasm now, he's exactly right and Barker's cheap debating point that he just got there by saying you're so stupid.

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You couldn't figure that out again is based upon his borrowing our worldview long enough to define the words to make the point and Doug was not

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Sidetracked by that I think most people would have been but he wasn't a stayed on on point stayed on the topic and again said okay, but what happened there was nothing but the scattering of protoplasm and If the people who did that he didn't have time to develop this but if the people who did that Thought they were causing the greater good that they were fighting a repressive government and That's these people were the loss of the life of these people would eventually lead to Betterment of life then couldn't they use that argument.

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I Mean it's all just relative, isn't it? That's what that's Dan Barker's, but it's all relative

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So if you can make the stronger argument that you can sacrifice a few for the better of the many Then why not do that?

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Well because it causes pain well But if you don't do it, you're gonna be causing more pain over time to other people under a repressive government

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So you can always there's always some way around this There is no way of making this system that Barker tries to present stick.

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It just doesn't work He caused harm to protoplasm It caused harm to human beings who don't want harm caused to them

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Okay, so any human being who doesn't want harm caused to him Should not have harm caused to him

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Now why why are these other people these different nerve centers these different nervous systems why is their word authoritative

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Their word. Yeah, why do I have to leave them alone? Because we're part of the same human race with the same organism.

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We relate to each other. We're part. We're the same organism what? This is me the same guy who's gonna sit there and say that evolution is an established fact

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He doesn't know much about evolution if that's what he thinks. We are not the same organism. We may be part of the same life zone and and biosphere but we're not the same organism and Look at the law of the wild folks

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It does not follow that That this type of argumentation makes any sense

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Because there are lots of gazelles in Africa that don't want to be eaten by lions But they get eaten by lions and the system works that way

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Is that immoral because it causes pain? The whole the whole idea just makes no sense

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We recognize that other human beings are part of us and we're part of the community I understand that you care I'm trying to figure out why because I'm a human being

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I don't like pain And so I project that to other human beings and I know they don't like pain either So I care about them by extension

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Do you think that the history of the human race reveals that one of the things that the human race likes to do besides?

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Avoiding pain is that the human race likes to Give it Yeah, it's in the name of a god non sequitur cheap debating trick

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You know, etc, etc. What does that matter? Because Doug Wilson would believe that in 99 % that's a name of a false god or falsely claimed by that god or whatever else

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It might be As as he will demonstrate but total non -second Would you like this would you like a comparative body count between the

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Spanish Inquisition and the crusades and the secularist crusades in this century now It's gonna sound for a moment like Barker's got a good comeback for this.

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He gets nailed This is this listen to this Well a few millions, but what's the point?

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I mean, are you trying to say that if a Political regime that's based on some kind of religious or non -religious philosophy commits immoral acts

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Therefore we should completely discredit the entire regime most Christians would say don't blame Jesus for the

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Inquisition, right? I don't blame Jesus for the crusades, right? They're eager to blame atheists for Stalinism.

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Maybe the reason for this The reason for this and I'd like to ask you to respond to it is

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When the Grand Inquisitor did what he did in the name of Jesus Christ He was saying one thing and he was standing on something else.

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His premise was inconsistent with what he was doing I have been able to find no inconsistency in the worldview of Stalin.

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Could you please tell me how he was inconsistent? Exactly exactamundo what the atheist regimes did in murdering millions and millions of people was

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Consistent with the worldview that they were following and Anything the

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Inquisition did or anything any atrocities of the crusade was inconsistent with the foundation upon which they were standing that's a given but Noticed that Barker missed it and now now listen to the this response.

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It is an example of incoherence Well, he claimed to be seeking the common good and yet he caused pain

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But I mean harm it may be a mistake That's inconsistent to be claiming to be seeking the common good but yet to be doing something

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Was Stalin mistaken or immoral both? He was mistaken and he was immoral

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Okay, and he was Immoral because he took human life, which you have absolutized.

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I haven't advertised it No as a relative I said it's relative to us the way we love all the natures that we have it could have been different things could have been

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Different we didn't even have to evolve. Okay now is the process of evolution whatever happens Is that is that what you're appealing to we do it happens that we have what they avoid pain

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This also happens that we inflict it Why why do you choose the avoidance of pain as the standard of morality and not the inflicting of pain

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Like pain, I mean, it's pretty simple, but we like inflicting it. Well, I don't think why do you choose one over the other?

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I don't like inflicting pain. Well, you know, I don't but there's lots of people most of us don't There was a chap in Oklahoma City that did and what we do then is we doesn't man

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We have laws and we have system of justice and we have self -defense and we have jails Those of us in society who do care about morality and stopping pain try to protect ourselves from the others who don't you?

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Have you ever seen a greater example of the utter blindness of atheism? We we do these things and the whole point is but why do you do these things?

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Because you were made in the image of God. That's why you're doing these things That's why we had that sign.

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We carried out the atheist convention atheist creatures denying their creator. It's Seen very clearly there

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One is the avoidance of pain the others the inflicting of it and you have arbitrarily ranked one over the other and I would like To know why that's called morality by definition.

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That's what morality is Why if you're gonna be a moral person, that's what morality is according to according to me.

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I'm a human being according to motion According to me There you go. It's all subjective.

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It's just me. And so if another me comes along with a bigger gun Then that's what becomes moral.

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It's just me things on this planet. We agree according to Hitler Well Hitler I was a member of the

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Catholic Church in good standing That was a non -answer obviously

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Anybody who would accuse Hitler of Christianity is just engaging in absurdity on an incredible level

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I was a non -answer and The point again is if if it's me or the majority of me's

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Then upon what objective basis do you say that what Nazi Germany did or any of the others did was wrong?

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And you just can't come up with anything from an atheistic worldview I want to ask you then.

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Why did God create evil? He wanted to So if God is responsible for evil, absolutely

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Okay, then if God is responsible evil, he's not a good God Absolutely, not. Well, how can you be evil and good at the same time?

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I didn't say he was evil I said he determined to create evil. He created evil Yes, then a person who creates evil is a good person

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God freely and unalterably ordained whatsoever comes to pass So when something happens in the world, that's evil

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God is Responsible for it. He created he made it He didn't create it directly when he created the world the world was good and man rebelled

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But when man rebelled against God that didn't surprise God, he wasn't scrambling around yelling plan

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B He knew it was going to happen. But then why did he say he created evil? Why did he say it in specific words in are you referring to the book of Amos?

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I'm referring to the book of Isaiah. Jesus God the God in Isaiah said I created he said Bara which is the word for creating

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Which is in Genesis in Iraq. I create evil and that's the moral evil. He's talking about not calamity

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Well, now let me stop right there. Isaiah 45 7 Numerous, I don't think even translates at calamity.

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I Don't know why Dan Barker thinks that he is a Bible scholar or he can just sort of throw out definitions

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He's going to be doing that here for the next few minutes on other topics but and I certainly don't have any problem reading

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Isaiah 45 7 as including Moral evil now in the context he is talking about the difference between Shalom and Ra It's talking about within the city and so on so forth and God is talking about the fact that he he is behind The destruction of cities and the calamity that comes with it and so on so forth now

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I think that would include as we see in Isaiah chapter 10 and the Assyrians All sorts of evil that goes along with that.

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There is no such thing as purposeless evil But he just threw out this it doesn't mean calamity thing

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No, it does. It's just bigger than the definition. He wants to use of that particular text

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And when did it become an argument for Dan Barker to announce his rebellion against God All that does is prove

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Doug's point doesn't it? I refuse to respect that. Well, yeah, in fact, the

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Bible says that unless God has mercy upon your soul That's exactly what your response is going to be you just proved proved our point that you are a creature and rebellion against your creator and That you don't mind standing up on your hind legs and spitting in your creator's face

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Okay, is that an argument? No, it's not an argument. It's Just you know, just making a statement

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We will continue with the Doug Wilson Dan Barker debate here on the dividing line right after this break

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The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

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Thank you That's The best rejoin music for the middle of the debates especially during cross -examination

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Though they might have wanted to play that and sort of slowed things down a little bit Welcome back to dividing line

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We're listening to the cross -examination portion in the debate between Dan Barker Heather freedom from religion

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Foundation Madison, Wisconsin former quote -unquote Christian and so on so forth and Doug Wilson on Does the triune

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God of Scripture live? I like that. I like that particular title Let's see what get right back to it

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There are two attributes that within a world without evil in a world without sin. There would be two attributes of God that would go unglorified and those two attributes would be

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God's wrath and his justice poured out on those who do evil and God's mercy on those who Have done evil and without open world without evil

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There would have been no forgiveness for sinners and in a world without evil. There would have been no judgment on sinners

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It sounds like a nice world to me let's have butterflies and puppy dogs Why couldn't a good

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God have created a world with that why do we why does why does his ego have to be gratified? Why does he have to be thanked and cobbled as if he why does he need all this things in glory?

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I mean what if I were to stand up here and to tell you I want you to worship me Catch that you barely hear it because he's being talked over but Doug said yes, because you're a creature and now he will make that even more explicit in the following statement

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Yes, but no offense when we worship him he deserves it Because you have just pulled a from out of your feet because you're not supposed to judge whether God is good or not

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Judge that God is good. You were appealing to a court of reason and if you appeal to a court of reason you

35:07

You're just supposed to take God's word for it You're not supposed to judge and how can you worship and admire somebody whom you do not judge to be good

35:13

You just have you just have to take my mates, right? All right, but let me go on here with some more questions. Is slavery a good moral idea?

35:21

Slavery has described human slavery. Are you talking about Hebrew slavery or Roman slavery? Either way is slavery a good idea?

35:28

And the slavery that Jesus endorsed was that a good idea the slavery of the Old Testament was a good idea and regulated by God's law according to his law and Roman slavery was a pagan system that had many abuses in it, but the

35:42

New Testament does not condemn it as a sin in itself So you agree with Jesus when he was compassionate enough to say

35:49

I don't do you get the feeling that Dan was not expecting some of Doug's responses

35:56

Because obviously Doug does not respond the way that many evangelicals would respond Who just you know, don't think about these things and go running off the cliff without thinking about what the scriptures actually teach on any particular subject and So he sort of had to go to plan

36:12

B on a number of these particular That that servant which did not do the

36:18

Lord's will and did not commit things worthy of stripes Shall be beaten with few stripes you agree that slaves should be beaten then according to Jesus Yes, you do and you think that's a good and moral.

36:29

Yes, I do. Okay You're gonna have to judge people if this is making any sense He's a good

36:34

God who endorses slavery who? Endorses and says you should be happy to dash babies against the stone a

36:40

God who admits creating evil who was glorified by people Keep going now that was of course an egregious violation of the debate rules where you stop doing cross -examination

36:50

Start making a ad populum argument to the audience that just expresses your

36:56

Lack of ability to respond to the things that are being said. It's just like well

37:03

I don't know how to respond to someone who's actually admitted all this stuff and is making a coherent argument so I'll just simply appeal the audience and that'll that'll be enough and You know on any

37:14

Official debate type foundation. He disqualified himself at that point, but when God created

37:20

Eve was she perfect Yes, and then Eve sinned, right? So there was a flaw in her right

37:29

But then what is a sin she committed a sin right right? Well, then she did something wrong

37:35

God created her with the capacity to choose Sin right and she chose wrong.

37:41

She did so something in her nature caused her to choose wrong, right? There was a flaw in her nature No, there was something in her nature that made it possible for her to choose evil

37:50

But that was not a flaw and then she chose evil rather than good, right? Correct. So why did she choose evil?

37:55

What was wrong with her? She disobeyed she was to see why did she disobey? I would ask her

38:02

You're suffering for her sin, aren't you? The Bible says that through one man sin entered the world it wasn't he was deceived

38:10

But the human race was plunged into sin by Adam sin Not but don't you see my point they blew it right something in their nature was not perfect, right?

38:19

No, yes, you've made a mistake. So I think Doug wanted to say no there because he just contradicted himself

38:25

So I think that was just the the speed of what was being said But no, he wants to make the freedom to sin

38:35

Imperfection rather than a completely sanctified state where they would not have the ability to sin It's it's an inappropriate definition that he's forcing on the discussion

38:47

When you say something in their nature was not perfect they were not complete they were not final in their their righteousness

38:55

They were in a period of probation and testing. So they weren't perfect. They were fallible But they could have they could have not sinned, right?

39:03

They were innocent There was no guilt that they had but they could have continued without sinning, right? They could have Well, it depends on how you're asking in their capacity.

39:11

Yes, but they chose but they chose not to do that God God had ordained that it go another way.

39:18

He wanted her to sin. So it was that was his decree to plan and will yes God planned he'd just sin.

39:24

Is that what you're saying? Yes, God freely and alterably ordains whatever comes to pass We are here tonight because before the world was created

39:30

God determined that we would be here and sin is an imperfection Yes, so God decreed an imperfection and God created even perfect then

39:38

Yes is what you when you said earlier that God created a perfect see the dilemma you have No, it says in Ecclesiastes that God made man upright, but he has sought out many devices now.

39:47

I'm granting your point in principle Okay, I just want to make an important distinction when God created the world it was perfect and all very good

39:55

Man sought out many devices. We rebelled against him and fell into sin I do grant the point you're driving at is that when we fell into sin this did not surprise

40:04

God in the slightest It was his purpose and plan that it happened this way Again violation of rules

40:17

Blatant inability to engage the topic therefore turn to the audience and Try to derail any thought process is going on where someone might be going

40:26

Oh, he seems to have a point He seems to understand and the atheist doesn't seem to understand because obviously Barker doesn't have any theological background

40:32

To even interact with what is being said here He he likes to pretend that he does but it really does

40:43

If Jesus bears record of himself is his record true Yes, it is Well, then why is it that Jesus said in John 5 31 if I bear witness of myself?

40:52

My witness is not true now here. This is this is a Extremely poor attempt on Barker's part to throw out an alleged biblical contradiction and you're going to hear him reading

41:05

Greek Whoo He's gonna read Greek. That means he must be really smart It really offended me tremendously because if you actually have the ability to at least pronounce the words as evidently

41:19

He clearly does Then to make this kind of argument and to ignore the thing called context is simply dishonest

41:26

What he's going to argue is that well once Jesus says in John 5 that my witness

41:32

If I alone witness then my witness is not true There's another who witnesses and as the father

41:37

They just go over John chapter 8 where Jesus says my witness is true He's gonna say see Jesus doesn't know what he's talking about.

41:44

And the reality of course of the matter is Context and in the one

41:50

Jesus is talking about the verification of witnesses In John chapter 5 he is bringing in the witness of the father

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And so you have in the mouth of two or three witnesses being established there in the other context

42:03

He's talking about the fact that he has a true witness because of where he comes from. He's not from this world He's from above this world.

42:09

And so he's talking about a completely different thing. So It would be very easy to go to the various ruminations of Dan Barker posts on the

42:17

Internet and Ignore context and make Dan Barker contradict himself But that's not what rational people do

42:24

That's not what honest people do but that is what atheists do in debates with Christians No, he was expecting the people who quoted that to have read the verses above and below Jesus was talking

42:45

Jesus was talking about the requirement of the law to have two and three witnesses He was not saying if I speak this testimony, then my testimony is untrue

42:54

He was saying if I speak this testimony My testimony is unconfirmed because the Bible requires to it requires independent confirmation as the context next plane

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Well, then Jesus said in John 8 14, though, though I bear witness of myself yet.

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My record is true Which is it? He said it two different ways He said one way it is one way it is not which way which way was he really serious?

43:16

He was saying that he was saying his testimony is true and you need independent confirmation to know that his testimony is confirmed

43:23

Did that says that in there? I didn't Before and after I would check it again

43:29

Exactly read the context Read the context. I have the

43:36

Greek text right here. So I look it up and for a show Do we have time for that? I think you get the point.

43:41

He contradicted what Jesus says Well, John 531 a on a go martyrio peri amos to the martyrium

44:00

I'll do that Right in my witness is not true.

44:05

He says so we're not supposed to trust Jesus according to the Bible If I bear witness of myself verse 31 to catch that we're not supposed to trust

44:14

Jesus according the Bible, I mean Again, the level of absurdity of argumentation here for someone who is so clearly does possess great intelligence

44:24

And yet here you have the example of what atheism does to a person professing themselves to be wise they become fools

44:32

And and to I mean this isn't this is not a meaningful argument to anyone who can not only just read the

44:38

Greek language But the English language as well There is a context that that every word has meaning only in its context and he won't even allow for my witness is not true

44:47

There's another who bears witness of me and I know that the witness which he witnesses of me is true

44:54

It's the second witness confirmed. He's saying my own witness is not does not stand alone

44:59

He is not saying that the second witness whose witness is true Testifies truly of my witnesses, which is true, which it happens to be untrue

45:08

If the second witness in verse 32 is giving a true testimony of Christ, then how could Christ's testimony of himself be?

45:15

Absolutely untrue sounds like equivocation to me. No, that's not equivocation

45:20

Dan That's just letting the text speak for itself your argument stinks.

45:25

You were wrong. You're refuted move on But in John 14 and John 8 14, he says the same words

45:33

Okay, they go mark you rope hurry enough to a leafy sistine. You might hear you more My he said if my witness if I bear witness of myself, my witness is true

45:43

Let me get on here. Then you agree for it. No, she doesn't read the rest of verse, you know

45:48

For I know where I came from and where I am going But you do not know where I come from or where I am going completely different Context from the preceding one simple context if this is the best that the head of the freedom from religion foundation can do

46:04

Then they stand convicted of having absolutely no interest whatsoever in accurately representing any text of their sight

46:09

There have to be at least two or three witnesses Yes before before any like before someone's convicted of a murder before something now, this was interesting

46:17

Listen, I'm not going to interrupt this listen. Listen to this exchange. He's judicially confirmed Yes, there have to be because in the

46:23

Old Testament talks about the bite of mouth of one witness You can't send someone to death but by the mouth of two or more

46:32

So I can continue this line Let's move on with them and I do want to continue this way

46:45

I Okay, I think actually I just they go into some rebuttals at that point so There's the second cross

46:55

I did want to listen to one Part of Dan Barker's second statement here before we go to the second cross and it reminds me of The other atheists we were listening to recently

47:11

Christopher Hitchens and It is a clear example of again the hatred of the natural man for the things of God the hatred of the creature for the

47:21

Creator it is a glowing just just glowing demonstration of The truthfulness of Romans chapter 1 listen to this section

47:37

Paul said and I was a second Corinthians bring every thought into captivity into the obedience of Christ Lean not on your own understanding.

47:45

He said in Proverbs The whole idea of the Bible is to submit to bow the shaft of your wrist and so wonderful Lord How tell me what to think tell me what to do?

47:53

That's where you get in trouble That's not morality people have killed and have done horrible things in the name of a

47:59

God because people have picked up babies and dashed him against the stones because of God Supposedly told him to so here you have not only his his hatred the idea of being submitted to his own creator

48:09

He wants to be his own creator. He wants to be his own ultimate authority, but notice again. This is the same contradiction

48:15

I noted on the last program He will at one point try to say well, you know the Bible just tells you to just you know lock walk walk lock step

48:23

It's all black and white that you can't think about moral issues. You can't make application of principles anything like that But then he's gonna argue that nobody really knows what the

48:32

Bible is saying anyways, and there's all these different contradictory viewpoints He doesn't allow for the application of principles to moral moral situations

48:40

He doesn't allow for any of that kind of stuff. He wants to have his cake and eat it to all at the same time Well, let's look at the the second cross because I thought that was was quite interesting as well

48:51

To claim that the Bible is our absolute moral guide. I assume that's what you're claiming that it contains moral guidance

48:57

Yes is to me and I think even to a lot of Christians pretty meaningless because Christians Bible -believing

49:06

God -fearing Jesus loving Christians will open the Bible and come to radically different conclusions about what is right on Almost every single moral issue abortion rights and gay rights and the death penalty

49:19

Let's take the death penalty capital punishment Our state doesn't have capital just you from I'm Idaho I know does

49:26

Iowa capital punishment it sure does what does and you're happy about that? Yes, I am actually what?

49:34

Okay to Deliberate in a case of somebody that was convicted of murder.

49:43

I was actually as a matter of fact you were yeah Did you find the person guilty? I was foreman of a jury that in a murder trial and we found him guilty

49:51

He did and did you were in a position of recommending sentence? No, we were not I can tell you what

49:57

I would have recommended Well, whatever you would have been reckoned. We would have recommended the death penalty. You would have yes

50:02

Did the state seek the death penalty? I know that that was in the hands of the judge and you think according to Scripture that was a morally correct thing to do

50:09

To seek the death penalty for this murder. Yes, I do. Let me ask a question then How many witnesses were there to the murder there was there were more than?

50:18

Two or three independent lines of confirmation how many people saw the murder That testified.

50:25

Yeah, how many people testified that they saw the murder committed? There were no individuals persons who testified that they saw the murder.

50:31

So out of the mouth of zero witnesses No, there was anybody see the murder take place.

50:36

No, let me read to you the Bible verse Now we already see where he's going. And again, it's an amazingly

50:44

Facile Childish simplistic argument that well You if you don't

50:50

I mean you might have you know that the clearest evidence whatsoever Multiple independent lines of evidence that uses well stuff that wasn't around in the days of the law

50:59

Moses But hey, it doesn't matter because you can't apply the Word of God You can't think about these things because I want you to only defend a very simplistic

51:08

Christianity that could never allow these principles to be applied modern in a modern situation See, I want you to hold a simplistic view of Scripture and then

51:16

I'll mock you for holding some Scripture. Oh Amazing the more

51:22

I listen to atheists the more I You know, it's interesting people are going. Oh, he's isn't really exploding.

51:28

I saw a very interesting poll recently it put together numbers from an lengthy period of time and The people who identify with atheism the number of people even in our day.

51:39

It remains the same It's anywhere from two to six percent. It just doesn't get above that And even though there's a lot of you know, non, there's much more non -christian religiosity in our society people just know that atheism is

51:58

Fundamentally flawed they just they just know they may not They they're so busy suppressing the knowledge of God within them that they know that there's some reason why they're doing this and so Listening listening to the argumentation of atheists is a real incredible evidence the existence of God Who so killed if any person the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses?

52:20

But one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die Deuteronomy one witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity or for any sin

52:28

For in any sin that he said at the mouth of two witnesses or at the mouth of three witnesses shall the matter be established

52:33

And you said Jesus was referring to this when he talked about his witness not being chosen as a witness being true Yeah, you said you would have sentenced a man to death without any eyewitnesses to the crime

52:44

I know we're not you there were no eyewitnesses at all. Well, just to illustrate. Oh, I don't want to try

52:49

He probably was guilty. I don't care, but I just want to know about the death penalty just to illustrate When the

52:55

Bible tells us for example that we Should have a parapet around the roofs of our houses and if someone falls off and hurts himself

53:01

The owner of the house is guilty of negligence in our society We don't have people sitting on the roofs of houses very much

53:08

So I would take the general equity of the law and apply it to things like deep wells and swimming pools and so forth and say

53:14

That we ought to have fences to keep toddlers from falling into things like that Comparably the Bible requires eyewitnesses because the

53:21

Bible was given to us in a time and in a culture when you didn't have things like video cameras and forensic evidence and so forth in this particular trial that law and scripture was very much in my mind as we sat on the jury and I was

53:34

Insisting as I was going through and deliberating that there had to be two or three independent lines of confirmation

53:40

They weren't witnesses to the murder. They were witnesses, but it was an entirely circumstantial case Did the guy get the death penalty no,

53:47

I didn't but you would have recommended the death penalty Well, I'm the point I'm trying to make is that I think you contradicted yourself

53:53

I think you acted in I think the Bible tells you that there had to be two or more witnesses You went ahead and gleefully would have sentenced a man to die by your morality when there were no witnesses

54:02

I think that's inconsistent and I bet you there's Christians here tonight Who disagree with the juxtaposition on the death penalty and the point is what good is the

54:11

Bible? What good is an absolute moral guide if no two Christians can agree with it what what that actual guide is

54:17

Well first it wasn't it wasn't gleeful. It was very sober and thoughtfully considered and prayerfully considered

54:23

It wasn't gleeful at all The the thing that I would like to point out about so many

54:28

Christians with so many different interpretations We you know You're what you're arguing is when you have the Bible and you get to it, you know

54:34

Three Christians together and they start talking you'll come out with maybe five denominations that sort of thing. So it's not very absolute well,

54:40

I would like to suggest if you had five Bibles and five Christians and you put them into five different rooms and You came out they came out with five or six different interpretations of the

54:50

Bible. Where's the variable in the Bibles or in the people? What a complete non answer what a complete non answer he's exactly right the variables in the people

55:04

The difference is interpreted how many times I brought this up? I mean, this is this comes up in the debate with Tim Staples everything else.

55:10

You're blaming the Bible for the people's misinterpretations and Then for him to point that out and they go well the

55:18

Bible contradicts itself was was was again amazing Put the same

55:26

Bible into the same Bible goes into every room different people go into every room the different answers that come out of Every room is a good argument for not trusting people

55:45

And another person was reading the Bible verse where God said take up the sword and slay every man his his neighbor

55:50

And what if they read two different contradictory Bible verses that would explain why the humans can't agree because the

55:56

Bible is inherently contradictory, right? He can't answer the question. Can I ask you the question?

56:02

There are two different words in Greek for one is killing and one is murder and in the

56:07

Greek translation of the Old Testament The Prohibition in the Ten Commandments is a murder not a killing

56:14

Exodus 20 says you shall not commit murder Exodus 21 requires the death penalty if you do commit murder

56:22

Well, can you ask me that question because I haven't seen Because you were a gentleman a scholar

56:31

I would be happy to know what question would you like me? The Hebrew word there is rucksack in the

56:38

Old Testament, which is not the word for murder It is used all throughout the Old Testament for simple killing for accidental homicide for peace.

56:45

Now, let me stop right there First of all, Doug said the septuagint. He didn't say the

56:51

Hebrew he's shifting grounds Second that sock can be used of many things and again Lexical semantics tells us anyone who really knows the language knows that these words are defined by their context

57:02

And he just likes to go well, it's used of animals over there It's used of just killing over there

57:07

And so it just means whatever I want to me rather than allowing for the context to determine the meaning in any particular

57:15

Useful accidentally negligent you were wrong to suggest that the Ten Commandments prohibit murder only, okay?

57:21

You missed the point that I said I was talking about the Greek New Testament that commandment in the next is 20 is quoted in the

57:27

New Testament Greek has a word for murder and a word for killing when the Old Testament is quoted in Greek It has the word for murder out of the

57:35

Ten Commandments So the Greek do the Greek translator groups because the Hebrew scriptures does not say murder. No, you know, maybe those

57:42

Greek translators Knew something about something called Context something that clearly

57:47

Dan Barker doesn't know anything about or is unwilling to allow to enter into things

57:53

Well, there's only a few more minutes left, but it's it's a good few minutes so we're not just go over time where it will will kick off the next edition the dividing line with that and Then maybe your phone calls if you have some comments you'd like to make

58:04

I think it's been Very useful to listen to this particular encounter if I hadn't taken the first 15 minutes

58:10

We would have done it in only two programs, but hey you do what you got to do So next time on the dividing line Lord willing we'll finish up this debate take your phone calls on it move on from there

58:19

Thanks for listening. God bless We need

59:01

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