December 22, 2023 Show with Dr. Tony Costa on “No King But Christ”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 22nd day of December, 2023, the last

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Friday before Christmas. And I am thrilled to have back on the program one of my dearest friends whose ministry

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I have the highest of regard for, and he is truly an extraordinarily gifted and brilliant man who also is one of those individuals whose brilliance has not turned him into an egomaniac.

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He is truly one of the most humble brothers I've ever heard, which is even demonstrated in his debates with those whom he strongly disagrees with on a number of issues.

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But I'm speaking of none other than Dr. Tony Costa, who is an author, a debater, and professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

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And today we're going to be addressing the theme of a soon -to -be -published book by him, his latest book,

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No King But Christ. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.

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Tony Costa. Well, thank you so much, Chris. It's been a while, but it's always an honor and a privilege to be with you.

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Well, why don't you tell our listeners about this book? Love the title of the book.

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Yes, it's a book that I've written about a year or so ago, about a year.

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It's been in the works about a year. And I wrote the book in light of what has been happening in our world, in our contemporary society, not just North America, but particularly in the

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West. There has been a rapid decline and degeneration, not just in Western societies, but also in the

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Western church. And so I felt convicted to write a book on the supremacy of Christ, particularly in terms of his kingship, which is a central theme throughout

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Scripture. And the subtitle of my book is The Collapse and Bankruptcy of Secular Worldviews.

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And what I do in this book, Chris, is I present the kingship of God, the kingship of his

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Son, the Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ, and the emergence of secular worldviews that really, at their fundamental root level, are opposed to the

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King, Christ Jesus. They are worldviews that refuse to bend the knee to him.

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And from there, I also work out the trajectory that these worldviews have led us to, and that is the moral decline, the abandonment of objective truth, objective moral values.

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All of these things are rooted in the King, the Lord Jesus Christ. And so I talk about, of course, the emergence of Antichrist and what exactly

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Antichrist means and how Antichrist opposes the true King. It sets itself up as a pseudo -King, and it could appear in various forms.

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Antichrist could be religious, it could be a political movement, it could be any ideology that sets itself up against the knowledge of God and refuses to bow to him.

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And so the point of the book is…the title itself, No King But Christ, is a spinoff of the claim in John 19 when

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Pilate presented Jesus to the crowds, and he said to them, what should

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I do with your King? And of course, the religious leaders said, we have no

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King but Caesar, which was really a statement of blasphemy, of a violation of the first commandment.

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Their King was actually God himself, and of course, the promised Messiah. But there they chose an earthly King, an earthly despot, instead of the rightful

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King, the Lord Jesus Christ. And so that tension has been running throughout history, and it will culminate, of course, in the coming of the

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King of Kings, Lord of Lords, who will establish his eternal kingdom. And then we shall hear the song of victory in Revelation 11, 15, that the kingdoms of this world will become the kingdoms of our

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Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever. Amen.

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And just to reiterate, you obviously did insinuate this already in your opening remarks, but there has been a difference of opinion amongst brothers and sisters in Christ spanning the theological spectrum about the identity of the

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Antichrist. There are some who believe it is a specific individual in our future, and there are some who believe it is a system, such as the papacy, and there are other views as well, and there are those who actually repeat what the

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Scriptures say, that there are many Antichrists, even among you now, and that was written two millennia ago.

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So we even have differences of opinion amongst our millennialists on this issue.

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And it is interesting, folks, for those who believe it is a specific future individual, the term

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Antichrist is nowhere found in the book of Revelation. I just thought I'd throw that out there. Yeah, yeah.

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Oh, sorry, are you finished, Chris? Yes, I am. Yes. Are you finished yet?

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Are you finished yet? I just wasn't sure if you wanted to add something else.

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I totally agree with you. I would say that, I mean, the term Antichrist, Antichristos, in the

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Greek text, it only appears in the letters of John, in 1 John and 2 John, and you are correct, it does not appear in the book of Revelation, even though we can, it is implicit that the beast and the false prophet and even the dragon, the representation of Satan, they are

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Antichrist. The word Antichrist, of course, has two meanings. The word anti means to be against, but it also means to be in place of.

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So Antichrist is anyone who is against Christ or anyone who claims to be in the place of Christ. And so the

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Latin term for anti is the word vicaris. And when the Pope claimed to be vicaris

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Christi or vicari Christos, the problem with that, of course, is that when the

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Reformers got wind of that, they realized that the word vicaris is the Latin equivalent of the

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Greek word anti. And so they put two and two together. Vicaris Christi means to be in the place of Christ.

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So the Pope claims to be in the place of Christ as the successor of Peter and as the visible head of the church.

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He claims to be in the place of Christ, the representative of Christ on the earth. And therefore, you can now see why the

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Reformers denounced the papacy as Antichrist by their own admission. Yeah. In all of the major Reformed confessions, they originally identified the

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Pope as the Antichrist. But most today, not all, but most today, while not diminishing the severity of their opposition to the papacy, just have a different understanding eschatologically about that.

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Yes. Yes. And so in 1 John 2, 18, John the Apostle says, Dear children, this is the last hour.

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So he's already telling them we're in the last days. The last hour did not begin, did not begin when

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Nelson Darby started dispensationalism. And it definitely did not begin, you know, with the publication of the late great planet earth.

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So the last days began in the first century. And John goes on to say,

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And as you've heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now, many Antichrists have come.

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This is how we know it is the last hour. So how do we know it's the last hour? It's the emergence of Antichrists, plural.

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And John points out that there is the Antichrist that is coming. And this is what gives rise to this view of a final figure that will appear.

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But even now there are many Antichrists. And so Islam is an Antichrist.

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Roman Catholicism is an Antichrist. The cults are Antichrist. Any political view that opposes

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God's supremacy is Antichrist. Many political parties are Antichrist.

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So this is part of what we call the now and the not yet. There is now many

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Antichrists, but there is one who is to come, the last one that will appear.

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And so as you've said, Chris, there are various views on this, various interpretations. But Antichrist is anyone, anything that opposes itself, positions itself against the true king, and it will continue until the last day.

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Just as the beast, there have been many beasts that have appeared in world history. Nazi Germany was one of them.

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Communism was one of them. Islam is another one. The book Revelation talks about the beast that comes out of the abyss, and then he's defeated, and then he returns back to the abyss.

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And so there's this continuous progression that these various Antichrists, these various beasts arise, and then they declined, and then they come back again.

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And the last one will be destroyed when the Lord Jesus Christ appears. And do you believe—not to belabor this issue, because it's not the primary theme that we're discussing—but do you believe that in order for a label such as Antichrist to be biblically accurate, a part of the ideology of the one being labeled as such needs to be the denial that Christ came in the flesh, as the

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Scriptures say is a mark of an Antichrist? Yes, that is definitely one of them that is mentioned in 1

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John. But is it required? Can we identify that? Not necessarily. No, it's not necessarily required.

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In the immediate context of 1 John, he's got the Gnostics in mind who denied that Jesus was a real human being, but it is not an immediate requirement.

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I mean, Mormons believe that Jesus came in the flesh, but what they deny is that God came in the flesh.

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And so the sign of Antichrist is the denial that Christ is

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God incarnate. But they do believe that God the Father came in the flesh. Yeah, well, they believe that, but they don't believe—Mormons don't believe—that

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Jesus Christ is uniquely God, that is, one with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

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They believe they're separate gods. And so Mormonism denies monotheism, denies there's only one true ever -living

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God, and the Trinity is defined by Mormonism as three separate gods. Right.

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And the Holy Ghost, by the way, has never taken on flesh. He's a personage of spirit.

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So in Mormon theology, the strange thing is the Holy Ghost, they differentiate the Holy Ghost from the Holy Spirit, which is another bizarre idea.

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The only God in Mormonism that never took on flesh is the Holy Ghost. Now, going directly to the theme, not that this is going to be a focal point of your discussion either, but I think it's probably good to get out of the way because it is a prominent, prevalent view, especially because of the dominance of dispensationalism amongst evangelicals in various levels of intensity.

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And I must give the caveat right away that I have many, not only friends who are dispensationalists, but even heroes, including

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John MacArthur and others. So I don't want to sound as if I'm disparaging and broad -brushing dispensationalists and counting them as heretics or something like that.

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But the title of your book, the primary title, No King But Christ, there is a view, as you know, amongst dispensationalists that although Jesus Christ has always been and always will be deity, he always was and always will be the second person of the

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Trinity, they do not believe, at least many of them don't, if not most, do not believe that Jesus Christ is currently the

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Lord and King, that that is going to be, that title and role is going to be granted to him during the millennium, the physical millennium on earth, which in their eschatological scheme comes about after the secret rapture and the

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Great Tribulation. But if you could comment on that and why is that a dangerous understanding of things.

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Yes, and I would register my opposition to that view as well.

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So you're correct that dispensationalists would argue that Jesus came as prophet, he's now currently interceding for the saints of God as the great high priest, but that he does not take his kingly rule or his kingly position until the millennium, until he rules, and then, of course, rules in the new heaven and the new earth.

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The problem with that view, of course, is that you really have to twist

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Scripture to arrive at that point. I don't think Scripture teaches that. The Lord Jesus Christ is prophet, priest, king even now, and we know that because when we look at the ascension of Christ, a lot of Christians are not aware of the fact that the ascension of Christ was his coronation.

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And so when Christ ascended into heaven, the language of ascension is what happens when kings or queens take the throne, they ascend the throne.

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And it was at that point that Psalm 110 .1 was fulfilled, The Lord said to my

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Lord, sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool. And so to sit at the right hand of the

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Father is to sit on the throne, which implies coronation. And also the fact that 1

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Corinthians 15 tells us that he must reign until he places all his enemies under his feet as his footstool.

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And so Christ is reigning spiritually through his church. He is the true sovereign.

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Yes, he is also the priest -king because in Psalm 110 .1, the same one who sits at the right hand of Yahweh, it says you are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

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And so we have a priest -king in the heavens, that is the Lord Jesus, and he is reigning over his church.

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And one day that reign will become physically manifested when

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Christ returns personally and bodily. And so when we think of what is commonly called the

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Lord's Prayer, the Our Father, as it's sometimes called, it's actually the disciples' prayer, not the

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Lord's Prayer, because the Lord Jesus could never have said, forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

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He could never have said that because he was sinless. He could never have said that in prayer, but he did say it when he was teaching his disciples to pray.

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And he qualified it by saying, this is how you should pray. He didn't say, this is how we should pray.

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And so that's why it's aptly called, it's better called the disciples' prayer, but because the Lord taught it, it's called the

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Lord's Prayer. But in that prayer, we do say, you know, thy kingdom come and thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

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And so because he is the priest -king, just like Melchizedek—Melchizedek was both a priest and a king—the

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Messiah is a priest and a king now. You cannot divorce his kingship from his priesthood.

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He's both of those at the same time. And so just as the prophet said that the

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Messiah would not just be king, but he would also be priest as well. Amen.

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Now, to make it even more a stark contrast from what you're sitting forth today, dispensationalists and others believe that not only is

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Jesus not right now Lord and King, but Satan is. Not over heaven, of course, but he is the ruler of this world.

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And, in fact, I recently heard a major dispensationalist, when he was asked if he believed

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Jesus was Lord, he said, I certainly hope not, because he's referring to the fact that there is all kinds of satanic, nightmarish things occurring in increasing levels all over the globe, which leaves many folks with some kind of respect for the

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Scriptures, even if they're not Christians, watching their TVs and looking at the Internet in utter astonishment and horror about what's going on.

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So the argument would be, man, if Jesus is Lord, he's really doing a horrible job, and forgive me, folks, if that sounded blasphemous, and perhaps it is, but I am not saying that because I believe it myself.

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Yeah, I mean, they're confusing the now and the not yet. The now is that Christ is ruling through his church, but he is not fully—the kingdom of God has not taken its fullest physical manifestation yet, and that happens at the return of Christ.

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And so the Lord is King. I mean, the Scriptures, the Psalms over and over and over and over again say

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Yahweh is King, and he rules. And even Abed Kenazer had to learn the hard way when he was driven to insanity where he was eating grass like an ox on all fours.

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He came to his senses and realized that the Most High rules over the kingdoms of the world and that he does as he pleases in the heavens, and no one has a right to say to him, what doest thou?

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And so the idea here is that Christ is Lord. He is on the throne.

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And this usually comes out of a very weak view of the sovereignty of God. Most dispensationalists are

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Arminian. And so when we understand the sovereignty of God, that Satan cannot act without God's permission, that Satan cannot even blink without God's permission,

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Satan only does what he does because he's allowed to. He's not running amok out there, unbridled, doing whatever he willingly pleases.

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He is still, for lack of a better word, he is still God's devil. He is the servant of the

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Almighty. Even though he's opposed to the Almighty, he only does what he's allowed to do and no further.

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And so this ideology that, oh, I hope Jesus is not Lord because it looks pretty bad out there, that is born out of a very weak view of the sovereignty of God.

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Now, how do you exegete 2 Corinthians chapter 4, verses 3 and 4?

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And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the

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God of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they will not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

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They will say that that is proof that Satan is actually the God of this world. Yeah, well, it's interesting.

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There are other views on 2 Corinthians 4. And there's one particular view by a

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Reformed scholar whose name escapes me at the moment. But he wrote an article, actually, he published an article where he actually argues that 2

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Corinthians 4, for the God of this age is actually a reference to God himself, that he is actually the true

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God who is blinding the hearts of those who are not elect. So that's one view.

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The majority of you, the traditional view is that Satan is spoken of as the

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God of this age because he's also, the Lord Jesus calls him the prince of this world or the ruler.

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The Greek word is archon, means ruler. And so Satan who rules the world, the word cosmos has a myriad of meanings.

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The world system is ruled by Satan and he's called the God of this age or the God of this world because the world serves him.

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The world seeks after him. They are his children. And so they worship him. But that, again, does not overrule the sovereignty of God because it is very clear that in Matthew 11 and Luke 10, the

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Lord Jesus at one point praises the father and says, he says to the father, thank you, father,

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Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise, but you have revealed them unto babes.

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And so there we see Jesus actually thanking the father that he's hidden the message of the gospel to the rich, but that he's divulged and revealed that to the poor.

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So there is a sense in which God can withhold. God can harden the hearts of men as he did with Pharaoh.

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But Satan can also do that by the divine permission of God. So, as I said, second

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Corinthians four for the majority of you has been that that's a reference to Satan. But there are some who would argue that the

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God of this age is actually a reference to God himself. Yes. We even have Thomas when he was finally convinced that Jesus did rise from the dead proclaiming my

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Lord and my God. Yes. And, of course, people have

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Satan as their Lord. That doesn't mean he is the Lord. Correct. Correct.

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So Galatians for eight, you know, Paul says to the Galatians, he says that when when you when you did not know

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God, he says you did worship those things which by nature are not gods.

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So Galatians for eight points out that by nature, there are things that are worshipped that are not

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God. They're called God. They're they're gods because they are worshipped. No. Paul talks about first Corinthians, eight, five, that to the pagan, the

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Greco Roman pagans, there are many lords and many gods. But in first Corinthians, eight, six, he says, but to us, there's but one

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God, the father and one Lord Jesus Christ. And there he is actually he's giving us the

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Christian version of the Shema, the one God, the one Lord. But it's interesting, Chris, that in Galatians for eight,

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Paul clearly points out that when the Galatians were pagans away from Christ, they worshipped that which by nature are not gods.

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And so by nature, there's only one true God, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, infinite, all powerful, all knowing.

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And that is the one God, the triune God, father, son, Holy Spirit. Yes. And to further add to the fact that some of the confusion lies in where those who are the enemies of Christ have

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Satan as their lord. Philippians 3, 19 also describes such people whose end is destruction, whose

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God is their belly. So obviously, we're not going to make a theological doctrine that the stomachs of Christ's enemies are the

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Lord of this earth or the God of this earth. That's right. So anything you worship, anything you worship becomes your

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God, whether it's money, status, it's sex, it's alcoholism, prestige, anything that you place in front of God becomes your

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God. It's an idol because it's not truly God by nature, but it becomes your God. So what you serve becomes your

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God. And therefore, these gods are really, at the end of the day, they're illusions.

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They're not real. And before we go to the commercial break, I just thought I'd throw out an interesting piece of trivia.

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One of our founding fathers, John Adams, he, before the

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Revolutionary War was concluded and our liberties were purchased as a nation, a

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British soldier ordered John Adams and John Hancock and some other patriots to disperse in the name of George, the sovereign king of England.

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And John Adams replied to him, we recognize no sovereign but God and no king but Jesus.

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What makes that statement even more fascinating is that it is widely believed that John Adams was an atheist or at the very least an agnostic.

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So it's kind of puzzling that he would make such a powerful proclamation there.

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Yes. Well, we have to go to our first commercial break, folks. If you would like to join us with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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Brian Wilson, and the entire family, thank you all for listening to, praying for, and supporting the work of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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and mention that you heard about them from Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And I want to thank again my friend

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Quite a handsome check, I might add. So please, you can be like my brother

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and mentioning Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We're now back with Tony Costa. We are talking about No King But Jesus, and we do have

38:35

David in Ada, Ohio, asking, How much error do you think has come into this question about the

38:43

Antichrist and about lordship of our Lord Jesus Christ because of the dispensationalist teaching and the popularity of the

38:51

Left Behind series? So specifically, do you think that that has been a major factor in confusing

39:00

Christians about who is the Lord of the earth? Yes, I do think that Darby's dispensationalist views have caused a lot of confusion, and principally, the main factor being his view that there are two peoples of God, that you've got unregenerate physical

39:23

Jews that he would argue, dispensationalist argue are God's people, and then you've got the church.

39:28

And so they separate Israel and the church as two separate peoples of God. That's the major problem.

39:35

And Scripture, of course, does not recognize the two peoples of God idea. God has always had one people, and the people of God are always in covenant with Him.

39:45

Those who are outside of Christ, including Jews, that Paul says that they are enemies of the gospel for the sake of the

39:52

Gentiles, but they are still unregenerate. If they are outside of Messiah, they are not the people of God.

39:59

You cannot be outside of Christ and still be in covenant with God. So that's one of the problems.

40:04

The other problem, of course, is that in arguing that Jesus is only functioning now as a priest for His people and that His kingly role will not happen until His second coming, that, of course, raises all types of problems.

40:23

The whole idea that Jesus can be your Savior now, but He's not really your king.

40:31

He's not really king at this point. And that simply does not fit the biblical data that we have.

40:39

His ascension was His coronation. And if you look at Psalm 24, which follows the 23rd

40:47

Psalm, of course, Psalm 22, you have the suffering of the Messiah, His crucifixion.

40:52

Psalm 23, you have the promise that even though He walks through the valley of the shadow of death, that He will be comforted,

40:59

He will dwell in the house of the Lord forever. So you do have a bit of a resurrection motif there. And then in Psalm 24, it begins by claiming that the earth is the

41:09

Lord's in the fullness thereof, that Yahweh is the sovereign over the whole earth. But then Psalm 24 ends with the words, lift up your heads,

41:18

O you gates. Let the King of glory come in. Who is this King of glory? The Lord, mighty in battle.

41:24

And so in Psalm 24, you have this beautiful ending where it says, open up the gates so that the

41:31

King of glory may come in. Well, why would the King of glory be coming in unless He went out?

41:36

Well, obviously, He left His throne above in the incarnation, and in the ascension, the

41:42

King of glory returns. And His sovereignty over the earth is affirmed in Matthew 28, 18.

41:51

Before the Great Commission, the Lord Jesus said, all authority is given to me in heaven and earth.

41:57

That is regal authority. That is kingly authority. And He is reclaiming heaven and earth to Himself.

42:05

And so Genesis 1, 1 begins with, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. And here, the

42:11

God -man, the Lord Jesus Christ is saying, all authority is given to me in heaven and earth.

42:17

And so that is clearly regal. That is royal language. And so the fact that the

42:25

Lord Jesus is reigning until He makes all His enemies His footstool indicates that all

42:31

His enemies have not yet been put under His feet. The last one is death. Death is the last enemy.

42:37

And so it's very sad that when dispensationalists read the Bible, it's always, well, is this about me or is it about Israel?

42:48

And the idea that the Lord Jesus Christ is not really reigning as king right now is a frightful idea because He is the sovereign and all things are under His jurisdiction.

42:59

He has placed all things under His feet. And therefore, it robs Christ's regal and kingly role and it diminishes

43:10

Him. I think dispensationalism diminishes the Lord Jesus Christ. And that I think is one of its weak points.

43:18

And it has produced many other errors. The other problem, of course, is the rapture. The idea that Christ is going to come invisibly, secretly, and He's going to snatch the church away.

43:29

And pilots are going to disappear from the cockpits and planes are going to be falling all over the world, accidents all over the major highways as people are taken out of their driver's seats.

43:38

This idea is completely foreign, totally foreign to the church.

43:44

The Reformers never talked about it. They certainly would have talked about it if it was a revealed doctrine. The church fathers are absolutely silent on this.

43:52

And of course, it has its origins with John Nelson Darby in Ireland. So we know where it came from.

43:59

And unfortunately, it has become the face of American evangelicalism. And unfortunately, it has caused a lot of confusion and really has diminished the sovereign king, the

44:13

Lord Jesus Christ. And specifically, the

44:19

Left Behind book and movie, Tim LaHaye, the late Tim LaHaye's work, the listener was saying, how much of modern -day

44:30

Christianity do you think has been confused by that? Yeah, I'd say a good portion of—I'll call it

44:40

American evangelicalism. I think a good portion of American evangelicalism has been influenced by that, including, of course, the word faith teachers.

44:48

The majority of them, if not all, are dispensationalists, Darby style. But here in Canada, of course, we have many evangelical churches that still cling to that, like the

45:01

Pentecostals and some Free Will Baptists. And it has, unfortunately—when you think of Hal Lindsey as well, he had a profound influence on American evangelicalism.

45:13

And he pushed this idea in his books like Late Great Planet Earth and Satan is

45:18

Alive and Well on Planet Earth and so forth. So it has become almost de facto the face of what we can call

45:27

American evangelicalism. And that was primarily due to the influence of C .I. Schofield, who wrote the

45:33

Schofield Reference Bible, and he was a disciple of John Nelson Darby. So yeah,

45:38

I would say a good portion of—let's call them North American Christians.

45:43

A good portion of them are influenced by this type of thinking. And it's done a lot of—I think it's done a lot of harm.

45:53

But having said that, God in His sovereignty even uses constantly very flawed men because He wouldn't be using anybody if He didn't.

46:06

But Tim LaHaye—not Tim LaHaye, I'm sorry—Hal Lindsey's book, The Late Great Planet Earth, I can't even tell you how many

46:14

Reformed Christians began their journey into Christianity through that book.

46:20

They later renounced Tim LaHaye's—I keep saying Tim LaHaye. They later renounced the—

46:29

Hal Lindsey. Hal Lindsey's teaching on this, but it was—God used it as a stepping stone.

46:36

Absolutely. Well, we know, Chris, that God does use crooked sticks to make straight lines. And it's not the stick that draws the line.

46:43

It's the hand that holds it. And so God continues to use crooked sticks to make straight lines.

46:49

And one other thing you probably should clarify, there are occasions when those who are not dispensationalists, who are not pre -mill, pre -trib, who are among those that are aw -mill and post -mill perhaps predominantly, they will dismiss the concept of the rapture, but they are speaking in that dismissal of the secret pre -tribulational rapture.

47:21

They're not denying what 1 Thessalonians teaches us in chapter 4, verse 17.

47:27

After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up in the air with them in the clouds to meet the

47:33

Lord in the air. That is something we firmly believe. We are not hyper -preterists.

47:40

Right, right. So I did a talk, and you know, Chris, because you were there one year with me, I did a talk at the

47:45

John Bunyan Conference in Franklin, Tennessee. And I did a lecture on the rapture, the secret rapture, which our listeners can, if you go to YouTube and just punch in Tony Costa, a secret rapture, you could hear my lecture there online.

48:01

And I thank you for mentioning that, Chris. We're not against the word rapture, but what we are saying is that what we're against is this idea of a pre -tribulational secret rapture that is then followed by another coming at Armageddon or when the final coming of Christ at the end of time.

48:20

So the word rapture itself comes from, it comes from the Latin word that means to snatch away.

48:26

And of course, that will happen when the Lord returns. First Thessalonians 4 .16, the

48:31

Lord himself would descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trump of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.

48:38

And then those of us who are alive until the coming of the Lord shall be taken up and we shall meet them in the air.

48:44

And so shall we ever be with the Lord. So yes, Christ will rapture up his saints.

48:50

He will raise the dead first. Their bodies will be raised as their souls come with Christ to merge again with the resurrected bodies.

49:00

The living will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. They shall be changed and they shall be taken up.

49:07

And so shall we ever be with the Lord, with those who predeceased us. So you're absolutely right,

49:13

Chris. The word rapture in and of itself is not wrong, but it's when does it happen?

49:18

It happens at the coming of the Lord. In other words, it's simultaneous with the coming of the Lord. It's not some separate event that occurs before the coming of the

49:29

Lord. So the dispensations actually have three comings of Christ. They have the first coming to make atonement.

49:34

And then there's the secret coming, the snatching up where the Lord ascends to the atmosphere.

49:40

They get very technical. It's almost like NATO. He comes to the atmosphere and takes up the saints.

49:46

And then he will come again at the end of time to destroy Antichrist and establish his eternal kingdom.

49:54

And just to remind our dear friends and brothers and sisters who are dispensationalists who say that we do not take the

50:05

Bible literally, and they seem to have exclusive rights to that claim, the

50:13

Gospel of John mentions four times that Jesus will raise us up on the last day.

50:22

And we believe that it means what it says, the last day. That will be the last day of Earth as we know it.

50:30

There will be a new heaven and a new Earth. But the very final consummation of all things on this

50:37

Earth before those who are lost are damned for eternity and those who are saved will be glorified and permitted entrance into heaven with Christ.

50:53

That's going to happen on the final day, not a thousand years before it, right?

51:00

Yeah. I mean, again, it all depends on your eschatology. So, I mean, there is a view called classical premillennialism or historic premillennialism that was held by a number of the church fathers for the first about the first 300 years of the church's history.

51:22

But dispensational premillennialism is very different in that it basically states that the millennium has a

51:31

Jewish character to it. They even believe there will be a third temple built.

51:36

Excuse me. They believe that there will actually be a fourth temple. The third temple is built by Antichrist, according to the dispensationalists in Jerusalem.

51:43

But there will be a fourth temple, Ezekiel's temple in Ezekiel 40 -48, where they actually believe that there will be actual sacrifices, literal sacrifices will be taking place during the millennium and that these sacrifices are commemorative.

51:57

They're memorials like the Lord's Supper. So you get into some really strange territory there when you start talking about reestablishing the sacrificial system, even though Hebrew says that has all been set aside by Christ's perfect sacrifice.

52:11

But you are right, Chris, they would place the great white throne judgment as something that occurs after the millennium.

52:20

And then that's when the wicked are thrown into the lake of fire. Well, we have to go to our final break.

52:25

Not our final break. I'm sorry. We have to go to our midway break right now. Is that the mid -tribulational view there?

52:37

And please be patient with us, folks, because the middle break, as always, is a little longer than the other breaks in the show, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

52:46

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because the FCC requires of them to localize this show geographically to Lake City, Florida, and they do so with their own public service announcements.

52:59

Those only air on 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida. We simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

53:07

So please use this time wisely. Write down as much of the contact information provided by our advertisers as you can so that you can more frequently and successfully reply to our advertisers, keeping in mind that we depend on our advertisers to exist.

53:23

And also send in your questions to Tony Costa, to chrisarnsen at gmail .com. We'll be right back.

53:28

Please do not go away. Have you noticed the gap that exists between the Sunday morning sermon and the

53:34

Sunday school classroom or the small group study? So often we experience great preaching from the pulpit, but when it comes time to study

53:42

God's Word in those smaller settings, well, let's be honest. It leaves a lot to be desired.

53:47

It seems like it is nearly impossible to find good curriculum out there today that is true to the

53:53

Word of God and is built upon sound doctrine. Much less it's hard to find curriculum that will actually teach people how to study the

54:01

Bible. Hi there. My name is Jordan, too, and I am the executive director of the Baptist Publishing House.

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Our ministry is dedicated to providing local churches with sound Bible study resources.

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Our quarterly curriculum is titled The Baptist Expositor. And for good reason, we are

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May God bless you. It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners from all over the world.

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Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed.

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Dr. Joe Morecraft. I'm Joe Riley, faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in a tie in County Kildare, Ireland.

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Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

55:13

Dr. Joe Morecraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron radio, Dr. Morecraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

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Their primary goal is the worship of the Triune God that continues in eternity. For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit

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If you visit, tell them Joe Roydigan, Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener from LaToy in County Kildare, Ireland sent you.

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Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the

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Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

57:02

Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

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I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised

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Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

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I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

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I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com,

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where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. I'm Dr.

58:02

Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

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Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.

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It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

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Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

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I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.

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For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

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That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.

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That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Ironsharpensiron.

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Before I return to Dr. Tony Costa and our conversation on No King But Christ, I have a few important announcements to make.

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So send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line.

01:09:56

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01:10:08

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01:10:20

Never do that. And if you're struggling to survive and make ends meet, wait until you're back on your feet and more financially stable before you mail us a gift financially.

01:10:31

The Bible's very clear. We're primarily to use our finances to support our church and our family, and supporting

01:10:37

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is not a command of God. But if you love this show, you don't want it to go off the air, and you are blessed financially above and beyond your ability to provide for church and family, you do have extra money collecting interest in the bank for benevolent, recreational, and trivial purposes, then please share some of that money with us if you really care about the existence of this program.

01:10:57

Go to www .IronSharpensIronRadio .com, click Support, then click Click to Donate. Now, last but not least, if you're not a member of a biblically faithful church, no matter where in the world you live,

01:11:08

I have extensive lists spanning the globe of biblically faithful churches, and I've helped many people in our audience all over the planet

01:11:16

Earth find churches, sometimes even within just a couple of minutes from where they live, and that may be you too if you're without a church home.

01:11:23

Send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com, and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you could send in a question for Dr.

01:11:32

Tony Costa, chrisarnsen at gmail .com. And Dr. Costa, if you could now direct us to some of the primary reasons that you want to focus on No King But Christ in this yet -to -be -published book of yours.

01:11:51

The primary reason, of course, is the supremacy of the

01:11:56

Lord Jesus Christ, not just over our lives, but over, as the Bible says, that He is

01:12:02

Lord of heaven and earth. And one of the things that I bring out in my book is

01:12:09

I map the theme of God's kingship starting with Genesis. A lot of folks aren't aware of the fact that in Genesis 1 we see

01:12:17

God's kingship clearly. He is sovereign over creation. He orders the light to come into existence.

01:12:23

He separates the light from the darkness. He creates human beings in His own image. And even that language of image, image of God, was the terminology that was used in the ancient

01:12:35

Near East to refer to the kings. The kings were called the image of the God. And when

01:12:40

God creates the first human pair, He creates them to rule, to have dominion.

01:12:46

That is regal language, to have dominion over the earth and to subdue it. That's the language of kingship.

01:12:52

And He created Adam to be a king. He also created him to be a prophet. He spoke the words of God to his wife

01:13:00

Eve. He was also a priest. He and his wife were priests. They could approach God. And He was also, again, we saw that they're kings.

01:13:09

They have dominion. They approach God. They speak on behalf of God. And so the first man,

01:13:15

Adam, becomes a type of the last Adam. The first man, Adam, was the image of God. He was a prophet, priest, king.

01:13:22

He's also son of God. Luke 3 .38 refers to Adam as the son of God. But yet the last

01:13:27

Adam is the true prophet. He is the true king. He is the true priest. He is the image of the invisible

01:13:33

God. And he is the one and only, only begotten son of God by nature. And so the idea of kingship starts in Genesis.

01:13:42

It works its way out through the Old Testament. Noah is also spoken of in the same terminology.

01:13:49

He is the new Adam who begins a new life, a new generation after the flood. And then that language is also used of the nation of Israel collectively.

01:13:59

Israel is a kingdom of priests. They are to speak on behalf of God to the Gentile nations.

01:14:05

Israel is the son of God, Exodus 4 .22. Israel is my son. He tells Pharaoh, let my son go that he may come and worship me.

01:14:14

And then with the establishment of the divinic dynasty, the divinic monarchy, King David is called the prophet in the book of Acts.

01:14:23

He spoke. He was inspired to write the Psalms. He was also obviously a king, but he was also a priest.

01:14:30

We're told that David and his sons would offer up sacrifice. And so there we see a beautiful picture of the

01:14:36

Messiah as the priest king. David is also the son of God. He will be a son to me, and I will be a father to him, and I will make his house an everlasting house, and that a son of David would come from his loins, and he will sit on the throne of David forever, and he will execute justice.

01:14:54

So all of that maps out until we come to the Messiah Jesus who is the promised fulfillment of all of those things.

01:15:01

And what I also do, Chris, is I mentioned the fact that without the king, there is no moral order.

01:15:10

You know, in the book of Judges, we have these accounts of a time period in Israel's history where the two refrains in the book of Judges is every man did what was right in his own eyes.

01:15:21

And the reason for this, it says, is because there was no king in Israel. And it's interesting how in the book of Judges, the lack of morality and order in society is based on the fact that there was no king.

01:15:32

And then when we come to the end of the book of Judges, it reminds us once again that this was a time when everyone did what was right.

01:15:40

And then in the next book of Judges, it's the small book of Ruth. What do we find in the book of Ruth?

01:15:45

Well, the last word in the book of Ruth is the name David. Ruth is the matriarchal ancestor of David and of the

01:15:56

Lord Jesus. Her name appears in Matthew 1, 5 in the genealogy of Jesus. And right after the book of Ruth, what do we have?

01:16:03

We have the first book of Samuel. And what is first Samuel about? First Samuel is about the emergence of the monarchy.

01:16:09

The terrible monarchy of Saul, the people's choice came to a miserable end. But God chose a man after his own heart.

01:16:15

He chose David. The word David in Hebrew means beloved. And so we see God choosing

01:16:21

David. And so we need the king, Chris. I understand the

01:16:26

United States had began with a revolution against the crown. And, of course, human kings are subject to corruption and so forth.

01:16:34

But we need to understand that God's ideal government is not a democracy.

01:16:39

It's not a republic. It's not socialism. It's not communism. God's ideal government is what

01:16:46

I call in my book theocratic monarchy. It is God ruling through his appointed king, his son, the

01:16:53

Lord Jesus Christ. And so Psalm 2 is the picture of how it's all going to end.

01:17:00

Psalm 2 tells us that the kings of the earth and the peoples have imagined a vain thing. They've set themselves up against Yahweh and against his anointed, his king.

01:17:08

And then we're told that God has appointed his king on his holy hill, that he's declared the king to be his son, and that he's promised his son in verse 10 to 12, he says of Psalm 2,

01:17:20

Ask of me, and I will give you the nations as your inheritance. You shall rule them with a rod of iron and dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel.

01:17:28

So here we have the king, Jesus, being promised by the Father that his inheritance is the nations.

01:17:35

And the fact that you and I, Chris, and so many around the world today, people of every diverse nation and tongue and tribe, are now members of the body of that king is a fulfillment of Psalm 2, that the nations are

01:17:49

Christ's rightful inheritance. He has the crown rights over his elect, and he has the crown rights over the earth, which one day he will take over, and his reign will be from sea to sea.

01:18:01

Amen. We have another listener with a question, Vladimir in Cornelius, Oregon, or Oregon.

01:18:11

I think that's the way the Oregonians say it, Oregon. But, and I could be wrong about that.

01:18:17

He says, What's interesting to me is that dispensationalists very often speak as our current day and the days that await us in our future are the most hellish and nightmarish and satanic that the planet has ever experienced.

01:18:36

They seem to forget the fact that at one time Christians were fed to lions and that Nero and others used

01:18:44

Christians as human torches. Yes, that's a good point.

01:18:50

I think that the only way that we could say today is worse is because there's more people on the planet, and you have numerically a lot more anti -Christian ideology reigning in many most parts of the world, but also the number of Christians, or should

01:19:13

I say, let me back up, professing Christians who are exalting the ideology of Satan, even though if they would never say that.

01:19:25

Would you agree, disagree with what I just said? And of course, let's not forget about the writer of the question, too.

01:19:33

Yeah, yeah, I would say that. I mean, I would agree there's definitely a numerical increase, but dispensationalists talk about the

01:19:40

Great Tribulation as it has not yet occurred. And so their interpretation of the book of Revelation is very interesting.

01:19:47

They will tell you that in Revelation 4, the church is taken up. So when John is told, come up here, and I will show you what's going to happen,

01:19:55

Darby interpreted that as the church is going to be raptured up. And then they say, well, the word church doesn't appear in Revelation 4 to 22, which

01:20:03

I think is a silly argument. But the whole point there is that to the dispensationalist, the

01:20:09

Great Tribulation has not yet come because the man of sin has not yet appeared and built the third temple in Jerusalem.

01:20:14

And I think the problem with that is that it really is an insult to the history of the martyrs. I think it's an insult to even our brothers and sisters today who suffer in North Korea, who are imprisoned, even those in China, for example.

01:20:28

When I talked to some of these brothers when I was overseas doing some work in China, and we would talk about the

01:20:34

Great Tribulation, they would say, what do you mean the Great Tribulation? We are in the Great Tribulation. We're suffering right now.

01:20:41

And so I think that from a Western perspective, we're doing pretty good compared to a lot of our brothers and sisters around the world.

01:20:51

And I think that when we think about the Holocaust and we think about Stalin and how he exterminated over 6 million

01:20:59

Ukrainians, and when we think about Mao's trampling down of the peasants in China during the

01:21:06

Chinese Cultural Revolution, these were times of immense, immense suffering.

01:21:13

And I think that when they talk about the Great Tribulation as starting with the appearance of the man of sin, and then there's going to be the seven -year period, it's quite interesting,

01:21:25

Chris, when you think about it, if the rapture takes place and then the tribulation starts, you can actually calculate the coming of the

01:21:32

Lord. You just have to add seven years to that time period. And in effect, you've just refuted Christ who said of that day and hour, no man knows.

01:21:39

But you can actually calculate it because the rapture occurs and then you've got the seven -year tribulation period, which means that at the end of the seventh year,

01:21:47

Christ returns. You mean if you are logically consistent as a dispensationalist. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

01:21:53

So, I mean, again, it all depends on what we mean by the Great Tribulation and what does that refer to.

01:21:59

And I think the people of God have experienced severe tribulation throughout history. Personally, I don't think it's referring to this time period in the future that it's going to be the worst time ever.

01:22:13

I think that when we talk about the seven years in the book of Revelation, Jesus himself never says the tribulation is a seven -year period.

01:22:22

They get that from the book of Revelation with the 42 months and the 42 months. But the number seven usually is a number of completion.

01:22:28

And so it can refer to complete persecution against the people of God, severe persecution against the people of God.

01:22:36

So I've never been attracted to this view that the worst is yet to come.

01:22:42

I think it's worse. I think it is going to get worse. I'm not a post -millennial advocate, but I do think that as we reach the precipice of Christ's second coming,

01:22:54

I do think that things will get worse, not better. Okay. Thank you, Vladimir.

01:23:00

And by the way, I want to remind our listeners, those who have written in and those who have yet to write in, first -time questioners always receive a free

01:23:10

New American Standard Bible. So if you are a first -time questioner, let me know.

01:23:16

I will take your word for it, and I will have Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com,

01:23:23

ship out to you a brand -new New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the

01:23:28

NASB, and also compliments of CVBBS .com. Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service will be shipping it at no charge to you or to us.

01:23:37

By the way, I owe a big, big, big debt of thanks to our friends, the publishers of the

01:23:46

New American Standard Bible, NASBible .com, for renewing their advertising contract today, and that brought music to my ears and a lot of joy and peace to my heart because Iron Trip and Zion Radio is facing some scary times financially again.

01:24:08

So I thank God for this great news from NASBible .com.

01:24:14

I ask you to pray, folks, for some other major sponsors of this program who are up for renewal with their contracts, who have not yet given me their final decisions.

01:24:27

So I appreciate your prayers about that. And we have

01:24:35

CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, and CJ says,

01:24:43

How much of a big difference is this making, these differences of opinion, over the dispensationalist and non -dispensationalist disagreements?

01:24:56

Does it really have a major effect on how Christians live and also the gospel itself?

01:25:06

Yeah, I would say that. I think it's sad when Christians divide over issues pertaining to, for example, whether you're pre -trib or mid -trib or post -trib.

01:25:20

I mean, to me, it's pure tribulation. But when you consider the fact that Christians can't agree to disagree agreeably on some of these issues, and there are people who take these eschatological views and make them into fundamental doctrines of the faith.

01:25:36

What I call, they major in the minors, but then they minor in the majors. They minor on the

01:25:42

Trinity, the deity of Christ, the gospel, and then they major on minor issues. And I think that at the end of the day, within the

01:25:50

Christian church, we need to understand that there will be differences of opinion about this. There's differences of opinion concerning the beginning.

01:25:58

There's debates about Genesis, whether you're talking literal six -day creation, whether it's progressive creation, whether it's a young earth, old earth, intelligent design.

01:26:10

There are Christians who will continue to argue these points, and they always seem to be in the beginning or the end points.

01:26:17

The beginning or dealing with the eschatology, the time of Christ's return, what's going to happen?

01:26:24

Are we going to win the day? Will the world become Christian? Will we come under the moral law of God and have a theonomic state?

01:26:33

I would say that it doesn't really make a big difference, but what it can do is it can influence our view of the gospel in terms of outreach because in terms of outreach, we need to understand that our major job is to preach

01:26:53

Christ and preach Christ crucified. Our major job is to preach the gospel. It's not to war with each other about the end times.

01:27:02

It's to preach the gospel. Christ is coming. We can all agree on that, whether He comes before the tribulation, after the tribulation, in the middle of the tribulation, or there's going to be a secret rapture.

01:27:14

Whether we live or die, we are the Lord's, as we read in Romans 14. And the other thing as well is each view, whether you're premill or amill or postmill, at the end, we all agree that Christ will have the victory.

01:27:29

We all agree that Christ will be king over all the earth. And so I think we just need to be careful.

01:27:36

We need to cut some slack to those that we may disagree with on these issues. But we must put the gospel first and foremost.

01:27:46

The preaching of the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to all who believe, to the

01:27:52

Jew first and then to the Greek, to the Gentiles. And that's where my focus lies. It lies primarily on the gospel and on the salvation of lost souls.

01:28:04

Well, by the way, thank you, C .J. And by the way, I was wondering, C .J., if you saw or were anywhere near that brawl, that street brawl that just took place recently in Lindenhurst, Long Island on Sunrise Highway where people were, a number of people, at least half a dozen, were hitting each other with very large wooden poles or sticks or boards or something.

01:28:26

I just saw that on the news yesterday. And I lived there for 10 years in Lindenhurst.

01:28:33

But anyway, one of the areas where it's, I think, an area worthy of waving a battle flag that is involved in the divide between the dispensationalist and the non -dispensationalist is the area, now,

01:28:58

I'm not broad -brushing because dispensationalists do not all believe this. And one key example is

01:29:06

John MacArthur, who wrote an extraordinary book called The Gospel According to Jesus, defending the biblical concept that repentance is absolutely necessary for salvation.

01:29:20

But there is something that is brought up by one of our listeners who already sent in a question.

01:29:27

He sent in a second question that I was not necessarily going to read.

01:29:33

But then when I saw how it really connects to your theme of no king but Christ, I thought

01:29:40

I'd read it. Let's see. How do you respond to the carnal

01:29:45

Christian idea that they are saved because of a prayer inviting Jesus into their heart but have no change in their sinful lifestyle?

01:29:54

That is a heresy worth publicly condemning very vociferously, in my opinion.

01:30:01

And it also is connected with your theme because rooted and inseparably connected with this is the claim that sinners coming to Christ for salvation do not need to acknowledge

01:30:16

Him as their Lord. So, therefore, what's your opinion on this?

01:30:25

Yeah, I think the word carnal Christian is an oxymoron. It's like talking about a married bachelor or a square circle.

01:30:34

They're an oxymoron. They don't mix. It's nonsensical. There is no such thing as a carnal

01:30:41

Christian because we're not supposed to walk according to the flesh but by the Holy Spirit. And you cannot be in the flesh and in the spirit at the same time because these are contrary,

01:30:51

Paul says. You are a new creation. The old things are past, the new become. So, old things have become new.

01:30:57

So, a carnal Christian is an oxymoronic statement. There is no such thing in the Bible as a carnal Christian.

01:31:02

The second one, of course, is the lordship salvation issue, the lordship salvation debate where they're basically saying, well, you know, you come to faith in Jesus, you say the secret prayer or this altar call, which by the way was, the altar call was created by Charles Finney, by the way.

01:31:19

He's the father of the altar call and had many heretical views. The idea that you can come to Jesus as your

01:31:26

Savior but not necessarily your Lord flies in the face of Romans 10 .9,

01:31:33

which interestingly enough is the passage that most of these guys quote, that if you shall confess with your mouth

01:31:38

Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved and whoever calls on the name of the

01:31:45

Lord will be saved. So, it's very clear from Romans 10 .9 -13 that lordship salvation is part and parcel of redemption.

01:31:55

You cannot have Christ as Savior and not as Lord. And again, that term Lord, kurios in Greek, the word

01:32:04

Lord is a divine title as well, which kings are also lords.

01:32:10

And so, the Lord Jesus is not just King, He's also Lord. He's King of kings and Lord of lords.

01:32:18

So, number one, carnal Christian is unbiblical. It is definitely a hill to die on,

01:32:23

Chris, I would definitely agree with you on that. And also lordship, the lordship of Christ is paramount.

01:32:31

So, you cannot have Christ as Savior and not as Lord, because His identity as Savior is connected to who

01:32:41

He is, which is King and Lord. Excellent. And thanks again,

01:32:47

Dave in Ada, Ohio, for submitting that second question.

01:32:54

Let's see here. We have someone who has a name that I absolutely love, and I just had it in front of me.

01:33:05

Okay. Liberty in Darling, Mississippi. And there's only one other person that I've ever heard with that name, and he was the drummer for Billy Joel, Liberty DeVito, also a professing

01:33:20

Christian, by the way. And Liberty wants to know, if you are a member of a church that espouses a view on the kingship of Christ other than yours, would that be reason enough for a person, in your opinion, to leave that church and find another?

01:33:43

Well, only if that view is unbiblical. It depends what you mean by their view of the kingship of Christ.

01:33:50

Well, he was saying it's different than the one you're espousing today. Right. Well, the only one that I would think that would be different would be a dispensational view, that Christ is not ruling as king right now, that Christ rules as king during the millennium.

01:34:05

And so what I would say is that dispensationalists believe that Jesus is king, but He's like king and waiting right now.

01:34:14

I would not necessarily break fellowship over that. I think the brother or sister who holds that view would be in error.

01:34:24

But I don't think that that error would be such that that person would have to be excommunicated or that we would have to part ways or that we'd have to leave another church.

01:34:36

I think the way forward here is dialogue, is continued conversation with that brother or sister, talking to them.

01:34:43

You know, Hebrews 6 talks about how we should move beyond elementary things, move beyond these elementary things into the meat of God's Word.

01:34:53

And some of the elementary things that Hebrews 6 mentions is baptisms and judgment and things of that nature and that we should move beyond the elementary into the more heavier things of the

01:35:07

Word of God. So I would encourage dialogue in this way. I would continue to talk to that brother or sister.

01:35:13

I've met many believers in my life who, you know, we had differences of opinion on sovereignty and God's way of salvation.

01:35:23

And many of them through dialogue with me have been convinced of the Reformed view of the doctrines of grace and have moved sides.

01:35:32

They've jumped from the Arminian side to the Reformed side. So I would encourage loving conversation with this person.

01:35:41

I'm always reminded, Chris, of Priscilla and Aquila in Acts chapter 18 when they heard Apollo. And Apollo, we're told, was a mighty man in the

01:35:50

Word of God, a mighty preacher in the Word of God. But after he preached, Aquila and Priscilla approached this brother and spoke of him.

01:35:58

But then it says they explained the Word of God more clearly to him. And Apollo, of course, listened to them and was so noteworthy that Paul even refers to him in 1

01:36:09

Corinthians 1. So continue dialogue with brothers and sisters in Christ. Love them, dialogue, and encourage them to study further.

01:36:19

And just to throw out my two cents, I could in good conscience, especially if it was a sovereign grace -believing church, be a member of a dispensationalist church as long as the—what's the word

01:36:38

I'm looking for? The eschatological understanding that dispensationalists have uniquely was not the dominant thing presented from the pulpit.

01:36:50

There are many TV and radio evangelists. It seems as though that's all they ever talk about.

01:36:59

I'd have to head for the hills if that was the situation. And also if they were intolerant of those who disagreed with their dispensationalist understanding and labeled amillennialists and postmillennialists and even historic premillennialist heretics and so on.

01:37:19

And there are those out there who do that. In fact, I know personally some. That's the only—because there are some fine shepherds of Christ's flock, or should

01:37:31

I say under -shepherds, who are dispensationalists. And I could see myself being very happily being a member of their congregations.

01:37:40

So I just thought I'd throw that out there. And we are going to our final commercial break.

01:37:47

And if you have a question for Dr. Tony Costa on No King But Christ, now would be the time to submit it because we're rapidly running out of time.

01:37:55

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. We'll be right back. Don't go away. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor.

01:38:03

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If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.

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One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnzen is doing is

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Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. Getting a driver's license, running a cash register, flipping burgers, passing 6th grade.

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Do you know what they all have in common? They all require training, assessments, and certifications. But do you know what requires no training at all?

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Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invinio and thanks for listening. I'm Dr.

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Folks, I want to remind you that the ads you've been hearing daily for years now from the

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Historical Bible Society, those ads are sponsored and paid for by the founder of that ministry,

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Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law. If anybody in the audience, no matter where you live in the

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That's the law firm of Buttafuoco & Associates. Please make sure you mention that you heard about them from Chris Arnsen of Iron Sherpins Iron Radio.

01:52:24

And also, let me add to something I was saying before the break. One final reason

01:52:30

I would definitely leave a church that happened to be dispensationalist is if they taught the carnal

01:52:37

Christian heresy that we were addressing before, if they were actually giving comfort to unrepentant sinners that they were truly saved, then

01:52:49

I could not tolerate that. So I just thought I'd add that to my reasons for leaving a dispensationalist church.

01:53:01

Also, let's see here. We have a question for you, and I just had it in front of me.

01:53:09

Where is it? Okay, Sweeney in Celebration, Florida.

01:53:15

I know that you are a debater. You have debated Roman Catholics and Muslims and others.

01:53:21

Have you ever debated somebody on the kingship of Christ who disagreed with your view? No. No, I have not.

01:53:29

Well, that's a good thing to arrange then. Perhaps I'll do that.

01:53:36

Sure. It'd be a very strange debate, but sure. By the way,

01:53:41

I want to let Sweeney and everybody else know that God used a debate that I arranged with Dr.

01:53:47

Costa and Roman Catholic apologist Robert St. Genes. I believe it was on the immaculate conception and the perpetual sinlessness of Mary.

01:53:58

Right. A friend of mine, an evangelical pastor here in the community not far from me,

01:54:07

Armenian pastor, not Reformed, he was on the brink of converting to Roman Catholicism.

01:54:14

And your debate, Dr. Costa's debate, is what stopped him in his tracks with the most convincing evidence why that would be a very eternally horrific turn of events if he had done that.

01:54:31

And he has never even thought twice about converting to Rome ever since. So I want to thank you for doing such a fine job in that debate.

01:54:38

Oh, thanks be to God. Thanks be to God. Well, I'd like you now to have the floor uninterrupted for a few minutes to really summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

01:54:53

Yeah, I want our listeners who are in Christ to understand that when we use the word

01:54:59

Christ itself, the word Christos, Mashiach, Messiah, and we're in the

01:55:04

Christmas season, of course, where we celebrate the birth of the King, we need to understand that the word Christ, the

01:55:10

Anointed One, is a kingly title because in the Old Testament, the three offices that were anointed with oil was that of the

01:55:19

King, the priest, and the prophet. And we need to recapture the ultimate authority of Christ as indicated in His role as Christ, the

01:55:31

King, the Lord. And what that means is that He is our sovereign. And, of course, to our

01:55:37

American hearers, that might sound a little strange because the United States is Republican. It started its origins by rejecting the monarchy of England.

01:55:48

Canada, of course, is part of the Commonwealth, and so we recognize the

01:55:53

British monarch as King of Canada as well. But we need to understand that the

01:55:59

King that we worship, the Lord Jesus Christ, is a righteous King. He is the perfect King.

01:56:05

He is the ruler of the kings of the earth. He is the King above all, all authority. And when we claim to be followers of the

01:56:13

Lord Jesus Christ, we are servants in the army of our King. And He must have first place in Him.

01:56:21

Paul says in Colossians 1 .18 that in all things, He must have the primacy, the preeminence, the supremacy.

01:56:28

And without our King, we have no purpose. There is no order in society.

01:56:35

There is no objective meaning or morality. And so we need to capture that idea of the kingship of Christ.

01:56:45

Those of you who are interested in getting my book, which, God willing, will be out sometime early in the new year, hopefully

01:56:52

January, end of January or February, early February, we're not sure, around there, I would encourage you to subscribe to my

01:56:59

YouTube channel. It's Toronto Apologetics. Just type on Tony Costa Toronto Apologetics.

01:57:07

I'll be putting some videos up just letting you know when that book is going to be officially out.

01:57:13

So I would encourage you to do that. If you're interested in learning more about apologetics,

01:57:18

I'm teaching a course actually on heresies of the church in January at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

01:57:26

And you can join us online. We now have online access to the classes.

01:57:32

So if you're interested in taking that course with me, it's going to be Monday nights beginning on January the 15th, 2024.

01:57:40

If you're interested in registering, please go to tbs .edu. T -B -S dot

01:57:45

E -D -U. You can send an email and just say, I'm interested in taking Dr. Costa's course on heresies.

01:57:50

You could audit that course. You don't have to do any coursework. You could just come in and listen and learn to ask questions.

01:57:57

And again, just want to leave you with this, folks. Again, we are in the Christmas season. And the

01:58:02

Christmas season reminds us again of the incarnation, that the Word became flesh, the eternal Word of God became flesh and dwelt among us.

01:58:09

And that we are celebrating, indeed, we are celebrating the birth of the King, who is

01:58:14

Christ the Lord. And what majesty that the King of the universe was born in a feeding trough.

01:58:23

We call it a manger. A manger is a feeding trough from which animals ate from. But what sublime majesty that the

01:58:29

King of the universe was not born in a palace. He was not adorned with royal raiment, not purple clothing.

01:58:37

But he was placed in a manger and wrapped in swaddling cloths. That is true majesty.

01:58:43

And that is our King, who is also the servant King, who came not to be served, but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many.

01:58:54

That is the King that one day all the nations will bow to, either willingly or non -willingly.

01:59:00

And one day we will declare that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the

01:59:05

Father. Amen. Hallelujah. Well, I want to thank everybody for listening. I hope you all have a very blessed and joyful and safe and Christ -honoring weekend and Lord's Day and a very

01:59:20

Merry Christmas. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives, as you celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater