Jimmy Akin

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.

Opening Banter and Listener Lines

And good afternoon, welcome to the dividing line, so I feel like I've already been here once I was on Wvne I believe is what it was back east in Worcester, Massachusetts, which is not spelled like Worcester, but that's okay.

With.

Mike Avendroff the pastor of Bethlehem Bible Church. Back there and. So I started feeling I already did this today. Except somebody else was asking the questions. So that's sort of how we did that. But we have been doing a number of series of things stuff like that that normally cuts down the phone calls.

So the lines are wide open today at 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. What's wrong?

I'm gonna have to work.

Well, you know normally when I do these series is you sit in there and you do some VPN thing I guess and you just sit there and you're not listening to me. Anyways, you're just sitting there doing whatever work it is you're doing and and so I'm multitasking.

I'm listening. Yeah, sure. Yeah, I make some points and you're not even now you're not even there. So yeah, you might well you might have to work. I don't know. With people like wonky and channel who don't know what time it is you know, it's still within a week of Everybody else changing their clocks and that's not so everybody's going where do I go?

It's it hasn't changed at all. I do have a few things here if we don't get a whole lot of A lot of phone calls, but I do have one very excuse me interesting clip and then Some other stuff. So We'll sort of leave it up to you.

They don't really have major major plans we'll probably just do this clip and start taking some of the some of the phone calls. James Swan sent this one over and said it was probably his favorite Jimmy Akin clip of all time sat that that.

Saying a lot, of course, Jimmy Akin is never quite as interesting as Tim Staples because he doesn't get quite as animated as As Tim Staples and he doesn't sound like a former assemblies of God youth minister.

That's what Tim Staples is. I oh by the way, I didn't bring. I knew I'd forget to do that. I just knew it as soon as I walked out of the studio and I hadn't done it. I knew I'd forget to do it. There is a thread on the Catholic answers live Catholic answers web board and It is James White and purgatory or something like that not in purgatory and a purgatory it was started by a Catholic of saying his dad uses our website to respond to all his Catholic stuff and He wanted help.

Responding to me because I'm out of his league is basically what it was and it was sort of sad it's obviously always sad to read the Catholic answers web board, but this was particularly sad because none of the responses Even showed any meaningful understanding of what my actual objections to purgatory are how we'd argue against it it was somewhat reminiscent sadly of Father Stravinsky's yes father Peter Stravinsky's Who shut up at our debate?

Expecting that I would argue against purgatory like Jimmy Swaggart. And in fact one of the people in the thread said that well Yeah, I get hold of Tim Staples and John Martignoni and Scott Hahn. They're all converts and they're all top-level apologists.

James White's just an anti-catholic right up there with Jack Chick. So you could tell that they've really been doing their primary primary study, but anyway. So it was interesting to sort of read through the read through the the thread and I don't know how long it'll be there.

But that that is on the Catholic answers web board month. Let's go ahead and listen to Jimmy Akin, and we'll start taking your phone calls. 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is the phone number. Let's just dive in somebody asked me this question.

And I didn't know how to answer over to look for and they asked me how could Mary hear? Everybody's prayer at the same time if she's not only present.

Okay, well The standard understanding of this is that the Saints are aware of our prayers because God makes them aware of our prayers. So just like You can have you could have a bunch of people if I put my email address out there a bunch of people could email me all at once and then I could process their emails as I had the time and ability to get to them and it's it's this and and so God can kind of serve the function of the internet there and Communicate to the Saints the prayers of individual people Regardless of when those they made those prayers that God can present them to the Saint in a way That the Saint will be able to respond meaningfully to them so.

First We are God sort of functions like the internet. Okay, and so I don't have to now of course you know for some unknown Saint I guess you know you could figure this out, but how exactly would that work for Mary?

I mean Mary would have to be running on the biggest major server. There is okay, but Because I mean she'd be getting more traffic than YouTube. Okay. I mean this is the I mean it just I don't know time would have to be warped or changed or something to to to make all that work.

But anyway that really wasn't the main point of all this okay? I'm now is there if there any part in the Bible where I can read some because you know how Lutherans are. Everything in the Bible right. Yay.

You know Lutherans are you got a show to them in the Bible. Well, that's I'm sure that the Chaz and channel will like that if they ever if he ever listens Will like that he'll appreciate that there's still Lutheran out there.

That's actually asked for a biblical reference.

But.

Obviously important thing here is here's a little lady. And she has this silly idea and that is that what she's been taught by her priests and her bishops. Actually has some grounding in the Bible. Listen to how Jimmy Akin disabuses her of.

Her misunderstanding. Well there are passages in Scripture that indicate that the Saints in heaven pray for us. Both the angelic Saints and the human Saints. You can look for example in the book of second Maccabees Where it talks about the prophet Jeremiah praying for for people here on earth.

You can. Which has?

Nothing to do of course at all. I mean zero. Nothing to do with what's going on in heaven no matter how you read second Maccabees. No matter how you torture a second Maccabees has nothing to do with that whatsoever.

They won't accept that because it's second Maccabees, but it.

Actually, that's true. I mean you can make a really good argument against the canonical nature of second Maccabees. I think Pope Gregory the Great might be a good person to use to argue against that but the point is the text has.

Nothing whatsoever to do with the use. It was just made at least you can document it similarly. The book of Revelation Has the 24 elders in heaven presenting to God the prayers of the Saints on earth?

Which has nothing to do with the idea and nowhere in the text. Is there any indication? That those prayers were directed to these elders even if they were human beings which is probably not the case. But there is nothing in the text that indicates that these prayers were Prayed to these elders.

They were prayers to God. They were not prayers to these elders. So steer right to nothing so far, so there's that.

Look also at.

Catholic comm for and Catholic comm 20th book of the New Testament. Yes indeed. Yeah, how many do we have. I have no idea, but we struck out on any biblical stuff, so Catholic comm comes in. There you go.

Information on prayer to the Saints.

But also be aware you're Catholic now. Listen here folks see this poor little lady assumes in her simple faith That what her priests have told her is founded on the Bible, and she was just given a tap dance of zero substance by Jimmy Akin nothing nada and Then directed to the website.

But now here comes the real issue you see you're a Catholic you don't have to play this.

Where is it in the Bible game? And sometimes Catholics are now that's not going to convince them.

But.

You don't. In order to Show the reasonableness of your faith you don't have to meet their standards. For how our beliefs to be documented if they've restricted themselves To a smaller set of things then you don't have than we do.

You don't have to accept that restriction.

Now now think about what's being said here. If the Bible is a smaller set of things. Then how does this fit with the constant claim that Roman Catholics make about Revelation? What are you doing?

I'm listening to this and it's like oh wait a minute. You don't have to convince them right that.

Her call isn't that what apologetics is about. Yeah, yeah, I know. Don't worry about what will convince them you just need to stay convinced yourself. It does seem to me that most of Roman Catholic apologetics today.

This was not the case in the early 1980s. But most Roman Catholic apologetics today is a rear-guard action. It's a keep the flock. We've got type thing and confuse the Protestants don't know what they believe anyways, but.

Back to back to the point if he says That scripture is a subset of this greater set then doesn't that mean this greater set has to have the same authority as scripture and. So doesn't this demonstrate?

What we've said over and over again about Catholic answers. Patrick Madrid all these guys isn't it obvious? That they function on the pardon pardon idea. That revelations partly in scripture and partly in the oral traditions.

But then when challenged default back to the material sufficiency position, but here you see it being fleshed out. We don't need a Bible verse. It doesn't have to be implicitly there. Jerry Matta ticks was wrong I'll bet you as they sit around in the.

As they sit around in the in the offices. They've had conversations. Well. You know that Matta ticks. You know why he went off the deep end was he tried to defend everything out of the Bible and never forget.

I've mentioned it before I know but I'll never forget Scott Hahn. After the debate of papacy at the City of the Lord over in Tempe, Arizona near the near Arizona State University. After that debate was over.

He looked at me and he says you blew it because you brought up infallibility and that wasn't the subject of the debate. Which I've just sort of like okay, and then in front of everybody he turns to Jerry Matta ticks.

And he says and you blew it because you tried to defend the Catholic position solely from the Bible. And you just can't do that he turns around stalks out of the place in anger never came back so once again documentation clearly provided from a recent clip and James Swan actually said that this was pointed out to him by someone else.

I should mention that. Someone who was Roman Catholic and is now a member of an orthodox Presbyterian Church. Yeah, who? And so anyway clearly documented. Where Catholic apologists say one thing, but they live another way?

They live the part impartum view of tradition and revelation. But then when challenged they default back to the smaller target. So as to try to avoid having to back up what they do in reality, it's like if someone said well.

I'm only going to accept the gospel of Matthew, so don't bother appealing to me.

About stuff that's in John or Luke. Well now notice John and Luke are what they're inspired. So if the parallel holds then he is saying that the traditions of the church outside of scripture are equally inspired.

That's the only way for the parallel to work. Now maybe they don't even realize they're doing this. Maybe they're just their epistemology. Just forces them into. You know you can. You can come up with a way to try to sort of help them out if you?

Want to. But the reality is.

This is how they're functioning as a Catholic. I accept John and Luke. I'm not a Matthew onlyist and so I don't have to go to try to prove everything for Matthew. To satisfy myself that my belief is reasonable I can go to John and Luke and in the same way I can go to the to the writings of the early church fathers And the teaching of the church and so forth.

So don't fall into the trap of thinking you've got to meet their rules In order to have your belief be reasonable. This is something that crops up periodically in fact. We've had it a couple of times on the show today already with people trying to find verses to support Mary's intercession.

Well, why do we have to find any verses to fight to support Mary's intercession in particular. Well?

Why would we have to do that? How silly. That God's divine Revelation. That which gives us everything necessary for life and godliness. That which is the anus. That which comes from men as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit speaking from God.

Why would we expect that? The that which provides light to the path and understanding to the mind. That which cannot be broken. That upon which man feeds for his spiritual nourishment. Why. Oh, why would we expect that?

To reveal to us something that for most Roman Catholics in many places like southern Mexico is the very defining essence of their daily religious existence. Why would we expect that? What does that prove to you just how grossly unbiblical Roman Catholicism actually is you know?

I mean is Jesus if Mary intercedes for someone and asks Jesus to do something is he gonna Just totally ignore her and stick his fingers in his ear and go la la la la la.

Now there's one of the deepest arcs. You know again the the very idea. That that you know there's there's a bunch of stuff behind this assertion. I mean the whole thing about people coming to God through Mary and so Mary's bringing these requests to Jesus and and This would require Mary to have knowledge of what's going on on the earth.

And I mean does Mary bring bad requests to Jesus. Does she bring requests to Jesus that are against the will of God? Would she not have to know the will of God with perfection? Otherwise she's bringing requests to Jesus that are against the will of God because.

What if Mary brought a request to Jesus and I'm not even granting any of that. That's not what the Saints are doing anyways we already saw a can fail completely to provide any type of biblical foundation for even thinking that but Leaving that aside for the moment.

What if she brings what could only be identified as a sinful request to Jesus? I mean how many times do people pray and ask things from God that that are that are Actually sinful. They're selfish there.

They they know what God's will is in the situation. They know what God's Word says in that situation. They're going against that they're trying to get out from underneath the law of God. So they're asking these things from God.

Does Mary bring those to Jesus? The only way that she could not do that is if she not only is perfected. But she's perfected in her knowledge of God's will she would have to have again a form of omniscience.

At this point or she's gonna be bringing false requests to Jesus. And What's Jesus gonna do if Mary brings a false request before him? Is he not going to go? No. Or is he gonna grant that. I mean the mess that Rome creates by having Abandoned the foundation of Scripture is so plain here.

It's so clear here.

Amazing stuff, you know, I mean, I don't think so miss. I mean he perfectly observed the commandments including honor thy father and mother I'm sure. At some point in her life Mary asked Jesus for something and he said yes.

Now excuse me honor your father and mother does not mean that you give to your father and mother. Anything and everything that they would ask that's not honoring your father and your mother. And it's it's fallacious to say That Jesus in obeying the commandments of God That means that he is going to give to Mary anything that she asks of him now in heaven.

That is that is just an absurd.

Application of the biblical command, you know that happens with every mother and child virtually and so it's gonna happen with Mary and Jesus. So sure some of the time Mary Mary made requests of Jesus in life and he granted him that would be normal and expected.

So, you know. Why do we even have to produce specific verses showing Mary's intercession? It's reasonable to say well, you know, she's his mom. She's in heaven. She can ask him for things. He's gonna grab some of those.

Yeah, that's real reasonable.

I mean we can assume all sorts of stuff about what's going on in heaven has no biblical basis whatsoever. We can insert all sorts of non-biblical stuff about grounds of intercession about a saint's hearing prayers and and and Knowledge of what's going on on earth and and that means what even when you go to heaven you don't escape Knowledge of the sinful acts going on in heaven on in earth and all the rest that kind of stuff.

We can insert all that stuff in there and go From the Bible about this it just makes sense.

Amazing. Okay, Nora. Thank you so much for the question. I'm really glad you're out there. Call back anytime and keep listening to the show. I think it wasn't la la Jim and he was something in Aramaic.

Well, actually, no, no, no, it would be because in Aramaic law is the word for no. So if he was going la la la la la, it'd be no no, no, no. No, we wouldn't that be like an Arab woman at a Latin morning at a funeral.

Don't think that's a different different word.

You elation isn't it? You elation? Yes. Okay. Thank you. I didn't make that up. I Didn't it that that went out on the air. It really did the whole la la la thing. It did. I'm not making it up. There you go, there you go, thank you very much.

Catholic answers live. Some things you don't even need to comment on it's just sort of like There you go. That's That's that's what's that's what's going on out there it's that's fascinating. Well, anyway.

It's seven seven. Whoo, seven five three three, three, four one eight seven seven seven five three three Three four one is the toll-free phone number for you to get involved with the program today. Let's take our first phone call and talk to Richard.

Hi Richard.

Hello Richard. Yes. Yes, sir in my call. Mm-hmm. My question. Philippians 2 27. And it's related to your exegesis of Romans 9. Philippians 2. Indeed he was sick to the point of death, but God had mercy on him.

Hebrew Greek key study Bible by Zodiac ease. And he has next to had mercy that it's an heiress. Mercied him up in Romans 9 about God being a mercy in God. Well.

Do you know what an heiress is?

Well, no, I'm a layman. I only have I only have Zodiac ease Bible here before me and you know his key in the back to all. It's I think he said that an heiress simply means a simple undefined action, right?

Yeah. Yeah, that's that's true.

There's obviously no connection between the two contexts. One is simply stating a historical fact that God had mercy in regards to Epaphroditus and Is just simply making the statement that that his recovery was was due to to God.

He had mercy on him not only in him, but also on me so that I would not have sorrow upon sorrow. This is about a physical healing and there's really no connection between this and Romans chapter 9 where you have No, no discussion of a physical healing.

It's it's about God as the potter having the right to over the one lump of clay to make Some vessels for honor and some vessels for dishonor and so on so forth. Okay, I.

I'm following you there my. My connection between the two is more on the basis of God's sovereignty. In in that God is sovereign in both cases. He decided to mercy Epaphroditus with regard to physical healing.

Well.

Well, certainly God is is the one who is in charge of his His mercy and his grace. It has to be free to be grace and. Certainly, we would say that that anytime God Heals any of us that this is an act of mercy and of and of grace and it's it's not something that we can demand.

I would think. I would think that the statement would actually be more relevant to the faith healers who in essence believe that God's mercy and grace can be Commanded by a believer's power.

That's that's the background for my question because I have I have word of faith Pentecostal friends. Mm-hmm to say that on the basis of the New Covenant and as I've done some reading and an over real and they make all the physical benefits of The New Covenant such as physical healing.

They make it Basically on demand for now simply because Jesus is the heir of all things and So because he provided for everything in the atonement. They say we can demand it on the basis of being united with Christ, right?

Well, yeah, that's that's the argument that is made it of course ignores the now and the not yet and Paul and as you were saying a Realized eschatology it brings into the present basically the the concept of glorification and the final state and ignores the fact that there is very clearly a continuing existence not only in our life of sin and Hence the need of sanctification being conformed the image of Christ But also the effects of sin we continue to live in a fallen world.

We are subject the same Viruses and germs as other people are and that God then uses our trials and difficulties and indeed our sufferings to bring about his greater glory and our are being conformed the image of Christ they try to short-circuit that Being conformed the image of Christ and making it something that has already been completed and therefore We experience it can claim it so on and so forth.

So Yeah, I would say that the situation with Paul in Philippians chapter 2 is Relevant to how he himself dealt with physical affliction. He experienced the miraculous in his life but you would think that if the miraculous was normative that is that.

Paul.

Himself believed that he had a Power that he could use for himself to avoid his own sorrow. That is that he could he could rush to the side of his friend and Bring him to immediate health just simply by command.

That this text would be somewhat unusual. That it really wouldn't make any sense to say well God was merciful on him and upon me lest I have sorrow upon sorrow. Well, Paul, don't you have enough faith to raise him from the sickbed?

Yeah, I think if we if we are going to allow the New Testament as a whole to speak to us then a text like this is important and as if I recall correctly I Spoke on this subject probably 22 24 years ago and a tape that we still have available and my recollection is that That I did use Epaphroditus as one of the texts at that time.

Yeah, Rich is saying yes, we do have that. That was about 20. I was almost a quarter century ago. Yeah, okay.

Yes.

Well, that's number 474. 474. Well, thank you Rich. You can tell who fills the the orders here. I believe it's not a tape CD number 474.

Alright.

Thank you. Dr. Why. Thank you Richard. Have a good day. God bless. Bye. Bye. 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is the phone number. The lines are wide open for you as well. Before we take our break. I'm gonna be afterwards looking at.

Interesting. There's a bunch of stuff. I saw Turretin fan today just threw a bunch of stuff Up on his blog. That was quite interesting. Excellent bibliography of online resources and church history and stuff like that very very useful, but then he also made a link to a Vatican meeting that took place and involved Randall Terry and I think the.

The substance of the meeting is interesting and also the connection that has to my own Past connections to Operation rescue so that I think are rather interesting. But we will be looking at that and taking any of your phone calls.

Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. We'll be right back.

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Thank you.

We really need a much more up-tempo rejoiner because no one's picking up their phones. I Guess we have just lulled everybody to sleep. They're so used to my just sitting here and talking and talking and yammering and yammering.

Ah.

Yeah, I'm looking at that that terrible evil website that is not in any way shape or form associated with us. It's not ours. No, I can. I can make the text bigger too. That's sort of nice. Oh, I can. Ooh, we need that.

That's cool. That's nice for older people. That's cool. I just keep clicking on the little text thing and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger and There's a a contextual quote of the day for today Whoever mr. Pierce is he is supportive of.

270 pages approved nothing. But if a man be ignorant, let him be ignorant and quote,. Dr. Peter Reckman. Letter to Alpha Omega Ministries, April 22nd 1995. I Will always chuckle at the fact that that Peter Reckman decided he needed to take a shot at you.

Because I dedicated that book to you. It certainly says something about the the mental processes that take place in the mind of Peter Reckman.

Which.

Going there. Yeah, I'm touching that There's some great a contextual quotes here, you know what I should have done I just didn't have time to do it because I was doing that the radio program I'm actually gonna do something.

It's gonna shock everybody as if I've never done anything like that before. But if I can find the time I was I was listening to My regular iPod and I am really angry that they have destroyed the iPod you do realize that I that the Apple destroyed the iPod Wonky told me about this yesterday and I immediately started getting flooded with Apple stuff in my email box.

They destroyed the shuffle the shuffle. I think is just the greatest Little invention that anyone's ever come up with and I live with my shuffle when I ride my bike and I have two that I use because unfortunately the shuffle can only be synced to one library so I have one that works on my Windows machine one works on my Mac and So I flip between the two of them.

Well, I left the one that I normally I'm listening to that has Shake yas or Cotty's stuff on it and and some John frame lectures and stuff like that I left it on and so I killed the battery. So I grabbed the other one and threw some stuff on it real quick and it was some Greg Bonson stuff and so I was listening to well this lengthy discussion of apologetics and and that's always good and So he was talking about why he feels all the theistic proofs are invalid.

And I've got to admit, you know love Greg Bonson love what he did love his debate with Gordon Stein etc, etc, but I just couldn't agree with some of the Criticisms that he made of some of the theistic proofs because I think the theistic proofs in general are Valid in a Christian worldview.

He was basically saying no, there's bad logic and so I'm gonna actually pull that that audio and Go, you know, I I don't think in this particular instance that that Greg was really Representing the other side quite well, I mean I agree that There's a presuppositional issue here.

But there were some of the some of the things he said I just went Not so sure about that. So I think it might be useful to folks if if I if I did that real quickly because folks are calling now I.

I.

Like I said turds and fan linked to this particularly in this reading. Vatican meeting. Americans bring case to replace DC Archbishop. Washington April March 12th. Randall Terry operation rescue founder led a delegation of nine pro-life leaders in an unprecedented series of meetings with Vatican officials from March 2nd to the 6th in Rome.

The reactions ranged from shock to heartfelt agreement. The purpose was to beg Vatican officials to intervene decisively in the American Catholic Church. Vatican officials were presented with irrefutable evidence that a majority of u .s. Bishops refused to uphold key teachings of the church.

The entire document sheep without a shepherd is at www .humbleplea .com. The complete list of requests at tab 5. Mr. Terry states our first request was the Holy See relocate Archbishop Donald worry and Bishop Paul Laverde and Replace them with bishops who will uphold the laws of the church namely bishops who refuse to serve Communion to any politician who supports the killing of children by abortion.

Recent headlines proved our point. Archbishop Joseph F Nauman, Kansas recently excommunicated governor Kathleen Sibelius. President Obama selected her to head Health and Human Services where she'll provide abortion when she comes DC Archbishop Nauman will be scoffed at she'll receive Communion with Archbishop rolls or Archbishop Laverde's tacit approval and American Catholics will descend further in a scandal and confusion if these two bishops are relocated and relocated.

What you want to inflict them on somebody else? Shouldn't they be removed from being bishops if that's what a bishop is would be my thought that wasn't in the article by the way. Anyway, if if these two bishops are relocated and bishops of the caliber of Nauman are put in DC area diocese Which are watched by the whole world it will show all humanity.

The Holy See is serious about defending instant life and that the Eucharist is not to be profaned or scandalized. It will also tell all US bishops that the days of fear equivocation outright disobedience are coming to an end end quote.

Well, that's very interesting. And there is no question that those of us on the outside of Rome, especially after hearing Jimmy Akin today Who are thankful to be outside Rome? Have to look at the the political machinations of the Roman Sea and The fact that look there is a big difference between what is said in Roman Catholic dogmatic theology and papal pronouncements and what is practiced in the United States Church and Especially in Europe.