Jimmy Akin

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll -free across the

United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

James white And good afternoon, welcome to the dividing line, so I feel like I've already been here once I was on Wvne I believe is what it was back east in Worcester, Massachusetts, which is not spelled like Worcester, but that's okay

With Mike Abendroff the pastor of Bethlehem Bible Church back there and So I started feeling

I already did this today Except somebody else was asking the questions. So that's sort of how we did that But we have been doing a number of series of things stuff like that that normally cuts down the phone calls

So the lines are wide open today at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven

Seven five three three three four one. What's wrong? I'm gonna have to work

Well, you know normally when I do these series is you sit in there and you do some

VPN thing I guess and you just sit there and you're not listening to me Anyways, you're just sitting there doing whatever work it is.

You're doing and and so I'm multitasking. I'm listening. Yeah, sure Yeah, I make some points and you're not even though you're not even there

So yeah, you might well you might have to work. I don't know with people like wonky and channel

Who don't know what time it is? you know, it's still within a week of Everybody else changing their clocks and that's not so everybody's going where do

I go? It's it hasn't changed at all. Now. I do have a few things here if we don't get a whole lot of A lot of phone calls, but I do have one very excuse me interesting clip and then some other stuff so We'll sort of leave it up to you.

They don't really have major major plans we'll probably just do this clip and start taking some of the some of the phone calls

James Swan sent this one over and said it was probably his favorite Jimmy Akin clip of all time sat that that Saying a lot.

Of course, Jimmy Akin is never quite as interesting as Tim Staples because he doesn't get quite as animated as As Tim Staples and he doesn't sound like a former

Assemblies of God youth minister That's what Tim Staples is.

I oh by the way, I didn't bring I knew I'd forget to do that I just knew it as soon as I walked out of the studio and I hadn't done it.

I knew I'd forget to do it there is a thread on the Catholic answers live

Catholic answers web board and It is

James White and purgatory or something like that not in purgatory and a purgatory it was started by a

Catholic of saying his dad uses our website to respond to all his Catholic stuff and He wanted help

Responding to me because I'm out of his league is basically what it was and it was sort of sad it's obviously always sad to read the

Catholic answers web board, but this was particularly sad because none of the responses

Even showed any meaningful understanding of what my actual objections to purgatory are how we'd argue against it it was somewhat reminiscent sadly of Father Stravinsky's yes father

Peter Stravinsky's Who shut up at our debate expecting that I would argue against purgatory like Jimmy Swaggart?

And in fact one of the people in the thread said that well Yeah, I get hold of Tim Staples and John Martignoni and Scott Hahn They're all converts and they're all top -level apologists

James White's just an anti -catholic right up there with Jack Chick So you can tell that they've really been doing their primary primary study, but anyway

So it was interesting to sort of read through the read through the the thread And I don't know how long it'll it'll be there, but that is on the

Catholic answers web board at the moment Let's go ahead and listen to Jimmy Akin, and we'll start taking your phone calls 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is the phone number

Let's just dive in somebody asked me this question And I didn't know how to answer or where to look for King and they asked me

How can Mary hear everybody's prayer at the same time if she is not only present?

Okay, well The standard understanding of this is that the Saints are aware of our prayers because God makes them aware of our prayers so just like You can have you could have a bunch of people if I put my email address out there a bunch of people could email me all at once and then

I could process their emails as I had the time and ability to get to them and it's it's this and and so God can kind of serve the function of the internet there and Communicate to the

Saints the prayers of individual people Regardless of when those they made those prayers that God can present them to the

Saint in a way That the Saint will be able to respond meaningfully to them so first We are

God sort of functions like the internet Okay, and so I don't have to now of course you know for some unknown

Saint I guess you know you could figure this out, but how exactly would that work for Mary? I mean Mary would have to be running on the biggest major server.

There is okay, but Because I mean she'd be getting more traffic than YouTube.

Okay. I mean this is I mean it just I don't know time would have to be warped or changed or something to to to make all that work

But anyway that really wasn't the main point of all this okay I'm now is there if there any part in the

Bible where I can read some because you know how Lutheran's are Everything in the

Bible right yay You know

Lutherans are you got a show to them in the Bible well That's I'm sure that the

Chaz and channel will like that if they ever if he ever listens Will like that he'll appreciate that there's still

Lutheran out there. That's actually asked for a biblical reference but Obviously Important thing here is here's a little lady

And she has a silly idea and that is that what she's been taught by her priests and her bishops

Actually has some grounding in the Bible Listen to how Jimmy Akin disabuses her of Her misunderstanding well there are passages in Scripture that indicate that the

Saints in heaven pray for us both the angelic Saints and the human Saints you can look for example in the book of second

Maccabees where it talks about the prophet Jeremiah praying for for people here on earth you can which has

Nothing to do of course at all I mean zero nothing to do with what's going on in heaven no matter how you read second

Maccabees No matter how you torture a second Maccabees has nothing to do with that whatsoever They won't accept that because it's second

Maccabees, but it Actually that's true. I mean you can make a really good argument against the canonical nature of second

Maccabees I think Pope Gregory the Great might be a good person to use to argue against that but the point is the text has

Nothing whatsoever to do with the use. It was just made at least you can document it similarly the book of Revelation Has the 24 elders in heaven presenting to God the prayers of the

Saints on earth which has nothing to do with the idea? And nowhere in the text is there any indication that those prayers were directed to these elders even if they were human beings

Which is probably not the case? But there is nothing in the text that indicates that these prayers were

Prayed to these elders they were prayers to God They were not prayers to these elders so steer right to nothing so far, so there's that look also at Catholic comm for and Catholic comm 20th book of the

New Testament yes indeed Yeah, how many do we have

I have no idea, but we struck out on any biblical stuff so Catholic comm comes in there information on prayer to the

Saints But also be aware you're Catholic now listen here folks see this poor little lady

Assumes in her simple faith that what her priests have told her is founded on the

Bible and she was just given a tap dance of zero substance by Jimmy Akin nothing nada and Then directed to the website

But now here comes the real issue you see you're a Catholic you don't have to play this

Where is it in the Bible game? And sometimes Catholics are now that's not going to convince them, but You don't in order to Show the reasonableness of your faith.

You don't have to meet their standards For how our beliefs to be documented if they've restricted themselves

To a smaller set of things then you don't have than we do you don't have to accept that restriction

Now now think about what's being said here If the Bible is a smaller set of things

Then how does this fit with the constant claim that Roman Catholics make about Revelation, what are you doing?

I'm listening to this and it's like oh wait a minute. You don't have to convince them right that Her call isn't that what apologetics is about yeah, yeah,

I know Don't worry about what will convince them you just need to stay convinced yourself

It does seem to me that most of Roman Catholic apologetics today. This was not the case in the early 1980s

But most Roman Catholic apologetics today is a rear -guard action. It's a keep the flock.

We've got type thing and confuse the Protestants don't know what they believe anyways, but Back to back to The point if he says

That scripture is a subset of this greater set then doesn't that mean this greater set has to have the same authority as scripture and So doesn't this?

Demonstrate what we've said over and over again about Catholic answers Patrick Madrid all these guys isn't it obvious that?

They function on the pardon pardon idea That revelations partly in scripture and partly in the oral traditions

But then when challenged default back to the material sufficiency position, but here you see it being fleshed out

We don't need a Bible verse. It doesn't have to be implicitly there Jerry Matta ticks was wrong

I'll bet you as they sit around in the As they sit around in the in the offices

They've had conversations well, you know that Matta ticks You know why he went off the deep end was he tried to defend everything out of the

Bible and never forget I've mentioned it before I know but I'll never forget Scott Hahn After the debate of papacy at the

City of the Lord over in Tempe, Arizona near the near Arizona State University After that debate was over He looked at me and he says you blew it because you brought up infallibility and that wasn't the subject of the debate

Which I've just sort of like Okay, and then in front of everybody he turns to Jerry Matta ticks and he says and you blew it

Because you tried to defend the Catholic position solely from the Bible and you just can't do that He turns around stalks out of the place in anger never came back so once again documentation clearly provided from a recent clip and James Swan actually said that this was pointed out to him by someone else.

I should mention that Someone who was Roman Catholic and is now a member of an orthodox

Presbyterian Church Yeah, who? and so anyway clearly documented

Where Catholic apologists say one thing, but they live another way? They live the part impartum view of tradition and revelation

But then when challenged they default back to the smaller target So as to try to avoid having to back up what they do in reality

It's like if someone said well, I'm only going to accept the Gospel of Matthew. So don't bother appealing to me

About stuff that's in John or Luke. Well now notice John and Luke are what they're inspired

So if the parallel holds then he is saying that the traditions of the church

Outside of Scripture are equally inspired That's the only way for the parallel to work

Now, maybe they don't even realize they're doing this. Maybe they're just their epistemology just forces them into you know

You can you can come up with a way to try to sort of help them out if you want to but the reality is

This is how they're functioning as a Catholic. I accept John and Luke I'm not a Matthew onlyist and so I don't have to go to try to prove everything for Matthew To satisfy myself that my belief is reasonable

I can go to John and Luke and in the same way I can go to the to the writings of the early church fathers

And the teaching of the church and so forth. So don't fall into the trap of thinking you've got to meet their rules

In order to have your belief be reasonable. This is something that crops up periodically In fact, we've had it a couple of times on the show today already with people trying to find verses to support

Mary's intercession Well, why do we have to find any verses to fight to support

Mary's intercession in particular well Why would we have to do that? How silly that God's divine revelation

That which gives us everything necessary for life and godliness that which is they honest us that which comes from men as they were

Carried along by the Holy Spirit speaking from God. Why would we expect that?

The that which provides light to the path and understanding to the mind

That which cannot be broken that upon which man feeds for his spiritual nourishment.

Why oh, why would we expect that? To reveal to us something that for most

Roman Catholics in many places like southern Mexico is the very defining essence of their daily religious existence

Why would we expect that? What does that prove to you just how grossly unbiblical

Roman Catholicism actually is, you know I mean is Jesus if Mary intercedes for someone and asks

Jesus to do something Is he gonna just totally ignore her and stick his fingers in his ear and go la la la la la

Now there's one of the deepest arguments You know again the the very idea

That That you know, there's there's a bunch of stuff behind this assertion I mean the whole thing about people coming to God through Mary and so Mary's bringing these requests to Jesus and and this would require

Mary to have knowledge of what's going on on the earth and I mean does

Mary bring bad requests to Jesus? Does she bring requests to Jesus that are against the will of God?

Would she not have to know the will of God with perfection? Otherwise, she's bringing requests to Jesus that are against the will of God because what if Mary brought a request to Jesus and I'm not even granting any of that.

That's not what the Saints are doing anyways, we already saw a can fail completely to provide any type of biblical foundation for even thinking that but Leaving that aside for the moment.

What if she brings what could only be identified as a sinful request to Jesus?

I mean how many times do people pray? And ask things from God that are that are actually sinful

They're selfish there. They they know what God's will is in the situation. They know what

God's Word says in that situation They're going against that they're trying to get out from underneath the law of God So they're asking these things from God does

Mary bring those to Jesus? The only way that she could not do that is if she not only is perfected

But she's perfected in her knowledge of God's will she would have to have again a form of omniscience at this point or she's gonna be bringing false requests to Jesus and What's Jesus gonna do if Mary brings a false request before him?

Is he not going to go? No Or is he gonna grant that I mean the mess that Rome creates by having

Abandoned the foundation of Scripture is so plain here. It's so clear here

Amazing stuff, you know, I mean, I don't think so miss I mean he perfectly observed the commandments including honor thy father and mother

I'm sure at some point in her life. Mary asked Jesus for something and he said yes now

Excuse me honor your father and mother does not mean that you give to your father and mother

Anything and everything that they would ask that's not honoring your father and your mother and it's it's fallacious to say that Jesus in obeying the commandments of God that means that he is going to give to Mary anything that she asks of him now in heaven

That is that is just an absurd Application of the biblical command, you know that happens with every mother and child virtually and so it's gonna happen with Mary and Jesus So sure some of the time

Mary Mary made requests of Jesus in life and he granted him that would be normal and expected so, you know

Why do we even have to produce specific verses showing Mary's intercession? It's reasonable to say well, you know, she's his mom.

She's in heaven She can ask him for things. He's gonna grant some of those. Yeah, it's real reasonable

I mean we can assume all sorts of stuff about what's going on in heaven has no biblical basis whatsoever We can insert all sorts of non -biblical stuff about grounds of intercession about a saint's hearing prayers and and and Knowledge of what's going on on earth and and that means what even when you go to heaven you don't escape

Knowledge of the sinful acts going on in heaven on in earth and all the rest that kind of stuff We can insert all that stuff in there and go

From the Bible about this it just makes sense Amazing, okay,

Nora. Thank you so much for the question. I'm really glad you're out there call back anytime and keep listening to the show

I think it wasn't la la Jim and he was something in Aramaic Well, actually, no, no, no, it would be because in Aramaic law is the word for no

So if he was going la la la la la, it'd be no no, no, no No, we wouldn't that be like an Arab woman at a

Latin morning at a funeral. Don't think that's a different different word You elation isn't it? You elation? Yes. Okay. Thank you.

I didn't make that up. I Didn't it that that went out on the air.

It really did the whole la la la thing. It did. I'm not making it up There you go.

There you go. Thank you very much Catholic answers live Some things you don't even need to comment on it's just sort of like There you go.

That's that's that's what's that's what's going on out there. It's that's fascinating Well, anyway

It's seven seven whoo, seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three three three

Four one is the toll -free phone number for you to get involved with the program today

Let's take our first phone call and talk to Richard. Hi Richard Hello Richard.

Yes. Yes, sir Thank you for taking my call. Mm -hmm my question is about Philippians 2 27 and it's related to your exegesis of Romans 9

Where it says In Romans, I'm sorry Philippians 2 It says speaking of the paphroditus that indeed he was sick to the point of death, but God had mercy on him and I have a

Hebrew Greek key study Bible by Zodiac ease And he has next to had mercy that it's an heiress so Could this be rendered

God? mercy to him as You talk about in Romans 9 about God being a mercy in God well

Do you know what an heiress is? Well, no, I'm a layman

I only have Zodiac ease Bible here before me and you know his key in the back

It's I think he said that an heiress simply means a simple undefined action, right?

Yeah. Yeah, that's that's true There's obviously no connection between the two contexts one is simply stating a historical fact that God had mercy in regards to a paphroditus and Is just simply making the statement that that his recovery was was due to to God He had mercy on him not only in him, but also on me so that I would not have sorrow upon sorrow this is about a physical healing and there's really no connection between this and Romans chapter 9 where you have

And No, no discussion of a physical healing It's it's about God as the potter having the right to over the one lump of clay to make

Some vessels for honor and some vessels for dishonor and so on so forth. Okay, I I'm following you there my my connection between the two is more on the basis of God's sovereignty

And in that God is sovereign in both cases he decided to mercy a paphroditus with regard to physical healing well

Well, certainly God is is the one who is in charge of his his mercy and his grace it has to be free to be grace and Certainly, we would say that that anytime

God Heals any of us that this is an act of mercy and of and of grace and it's it's not something that we can demand

I would think I would think that the statement would actually be more relevant to the faith healers who in essence believe that God's mercy and grace can be commanded by a believer's power

That's that's the background for my question because I have I have word of faith

Pentecostal friends. Mm -hmm who say that on the basis of the New Covenant and as I've done some reading and Da Carson and I'm convinced that they have an over realized eschatology and they make all the physical benefits of The New Covenant such as physical healing they make it basically on demand for now simply because Jesus is the heir of all things and so because he provided for everything in the

Atonement They say we can demand it on the basis of being united with Christ, right?

Well, yeah, that's that's the argument that is made it Of course ignores the now and the not yet and Paul and as you were saying a realized eschatology

It brings into the present basically the the concept of glorification and The final state and ignores the fact that there is very clearly a continuing existence not only in our life of sin and Hence the need of sanctification being conformed the image of Christ But also the effects of sin we continue to live in a fallen world.

We are subject to the same viruses and germs as other people are and That God then uses our trials and difficulties and indeed our sufferings to bring about his greater glory and our are being conformed the image of Christ they try to short -circuit that Being conformed the image of Christ and making it something that has already been completed and therefore

We experience it can claim it so on and so forth. So yeah, I would say that the situation with Paul in Philippians chapter 2 is

Relevant to how he himself dealt with physical affliction. He experienced the miraculous in his life

But you would think that if the miraculous was normative that is that Paul himself believed that he had a a power that he could use for himself to avoid his own sorrow that Is that he could he could rush to?

the side of his friend and Bring him to immediate health just simply by command

That this text would be somewhat unusual That it really wouldn't make any sense to say well

God was merciful on him and upon me lest I have sorrow upon sorrow. Well, Paul Don't you have enough faith to raise him from the sickbed?

Yeah, I think if we if we are going to allow the New Testament as a whole to speak to us then a text like this is important and as if I recall correctly,

I spoke on this subject probably of 22 24 years ago and a tape that we still have available and my recollection is that That I did use

Epaphroditus as one of the texts at that time Yeah, Rich is saying yes, we do have that.

That was about 20. I was almost a quarter century ago. Yeah Okay, is that available at your website?

Yes Well, that's number 474 474. Well, thank you. Rich. You can tell who fills the the orders here.

I believe it's not tape CD number 474 Alright Thank you.

Dr. Wyatt. Thank you Richard. Have a good day. You too. God bless. Bye. Bye 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is the phone number the lines are wide open for you as well

Before we take our break. I'm going to be afterwards looking at Interesting there's a bunch of stuff

I saw Turretin fan today just threw a bunch of stuff up on his blog that was quite interesting a excellent bibliography of online resources and church history and stuff like that very very useful, but then he also made a link to a

Vatican meeting that took place and involved Randall Terry and I think the The substance of the meeting is interesting and also the connection that has to my own

Past connections to Operation Rescue so that I think are rather interesting

But we will be looking at that and taking any of your phone calls 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1.

We'll be right back It's a journey

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Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses

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Thank you We really need a much more up -tempo rejoiner because no one's picking up their phones

I Guess we have just lulled everybody to sleep They're so used to my just sitting here and talking and talking and yammering and yammering

Yeah, I'm looking at that that terrible evil website that is not in any way shape or form associated with us

It's not ours no I can I can make the text bigger too, that's sort of nice. Oh, I can oh we need that That's cool

That's nice for older people. That's cool. I just keep clicking on the little text thing and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger and There's a contextual quote of the day for today

Whoever mr. Pierce is he is supportive of 270 pages approved nothing

But if a man be ignorant, let him be ignorant and quote, dr. Peter Reckman letter to Alpha Omega Ministries April 22nd 1995

I Will always chuckle at the fact that that Peter Reckman decided he needed to take a shot at you

Because I dedicated that book It certainly says something about the the mental processes that take place in the mind of Peter Reckman which

Touching that There's some great a contextual closer, you know what

I should have done I just didn't have time to do it because I was doing that of the radio program I'm actually gonna do something.

It's gonna shock everybody as if I've never done anything like that before But if I can find the time

I was I was listening to My regular iPod and I am really angry that they have destroyed the iPod

You do realize that I that the Apple destroyed the iPod Wonky told me about this yesterday and I immediately started getting flooded with Apple stuff in my email box

They destroyed the shuffle the shuffle. I think is just the greatest little invention that anyone's ever come up with and I live with my shuffle when

I ride my bike and I have two that I use because unfortunately the shuffle can only be synced to one library

So I have one that works on my Windows machine one works on my Mac and So I flip between the two of them.

Well, I left the one that I'm normally I'm listening to that has Shake y 'all Sir Coddy stuff on it and and some

John frame lectures and stuff like that I left it on and so I killed the battery

So I grabbed the other one and threw some stuff on it real quick and there's some Greg Bonson stuff and so I was listening to Well this lengthy discussion of apologetics and and that's always good and so he was talking about why he feels all the theistic proofs are invalid and I've got to admit, you know love

Greg Bonson love What he did love his debate with Gordon Stein, etc, etc but I just couldn't agree with some of the criticisms that he made of some of the theistic proofs because I think the theistic proofs in general are

Valid in a Christian worldview. He was basically saying no, there's bad logic and so I'm gonna actually pull that that audio and Go, you know,

I I don't think in this particular instance that that Greg was really Representing the other side quite well,

I mean I agree That there's a presuppositional issue here, but there were some of the some of the things he said

I just went Not so sure about that, so I think it might be useful to folks if if I if I did that real quickly

Cuz folks are calling now I Like I said turns into fan linked to this particularly in this reading

Vatican meeting Americans bring case to replace DC Archbishop Washington April March 12th

Randall Terry operation rescue founder led a delegation of nine pro -life leaders in an unprecedented series of meetings with Vatican officials from March 2nd to the 6th in Rome The reactions ranged from shock to heartfelt agreement.

The purpose was to beg Vatican officials to intervene decisively in the American Catholic Church Vatican officials were presented with irrefutable evidence that a majority of US bishops refused to uphold key teachings of the church the entire document

Sheep without a shepherd is at www .humbleplea .com

The complete list of requests at tab 5 mr. Terry states our first request was the

Holy See relocate Archbishop Donald worry and Bishop Paul Laverde and Replace them with bishops who will uphold the laws of the church namely bishops who refuse to serve

Communion to any politician who supports the killing of children by abortion Recent headlines proved our point

Archbishop Joseph F. Nauman, Kansas recently excommunicated governor Kathleen Sibelius President Obama selected her to head

Health and Human Services where she will provide abortion when she comes DC Archbishop Nauman will be scoffed at she will receive

Communion with Archbishop rolls or Archbishop Laverde's tacit approval and American Catholics will descend further in a scandal and confusion if these two bishops are relocated and relocated

What you want to inflict them on somebody else? Shouldn't they be removed from being bishops if that's what a bishop is would be my thought that wasn't in the article by the way

Anyway, if these two bishops are relocated and bishops of the caliber of Nauman are put in DC area diocese

Which are watched by the whole world it will show all humanity The Holy See is serious about defending instant life and that the

Eucharist is not to be profaned or scandalized It will also tell all u .s. Bishops that the days of fear equivocation outright disobedience are coming to an end end quote

Well, that's very interesting And there is no question that those of us on the outside of Rome, especially after hearing

Jimmy Akin today Who are thankful to be outside Rome? Have to look at the the political machinations of the

Roman Sea and The fact that look there is a big difference between what is said in Roman Catholic dogmatic theology and papal pronouncements and what is practiced in the

United States Church and Especially in Europe. I mean You know The the

Catholic Church in those places is substantially different. There's no question about that and On just a human level man.

I wouldn't want to be the Pope trying to hold that disparate group of people together But hey, I thought he was infallible

You know and so I can you know, I can appreciate that but what really caught my attention about all that and that's all very interesting and we've all we all know there's a huge difference between The dogma and practice and you know

The Magisterium of Rome is filled with liberals and and conservative Catholics just have to pull their hair out

Constantly at this at this situation and yeah, I understand all that but what really

Caught my attention. Like I said before we go to the phones was you know I once worked with Operation Rescue and then

I didn't and why was the reason I gave then reason I gave then a lot of people criticized me for at the time is

I was writing the fatal flaw my first book and I became very clearly convinced

That I simply would not be allowed To address the issue of the gospel in Roman Catholicism within that context

That the issues of the gospel had to be made secondary to the work of Operation Rescue and At that time

Randall Terry was not a Roman Catholic and now Randall Terry is a Roman Catholic Maybe that is just one indication that Years ago and you can still see this.

I think it's on the website in the article section somewhere. I think Might be under the

ECT stuff might be there I commented on my experience with Operation Rescue and why

I had to leave that I I know I've written about it in the past I would assume it's in the article section. I don't know. It might be maybe a search of bringing up.

I don't know, but There's there's indication with Randall Terry off in Rome that maybe

I probably was Was not just making things up as I heard those things eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number and let's

Talk with Jason. Hi Jason Hey, dr. White. How you doing?

Good. How are you doing? All right You know last week. We were at the Shepherds conference and we had a discussion about the doctrine of double predestination and That was the first time

I had ever really heard that phrase. So when I came back to Phoenix, I googled it and I read

RC Sproul's essay on it and to be honest, it was kind of over my head so I was wondering if you could define it and Secondly, is it biblical and thirdly is it a view that the

Reformers held? In their time well now if you heard a discussion of it at the

Shepherds conference, what did they say? well It was just with some buddies that were there.

Oh, okay Presentation or something Yeah, there wasn't a there wasn't a sermon on it.

Well Unfortunately, the the terminology has a strict meaning and a not -so -strict meaning and It is often

Misused and abused so I will have to say some people say it this way and some people say it that way

Double predestination over against single predestination generally is a distinction that either admits the existence of a decree of reprobation or does not

In other words if a person believes in the single predestination Then in essence they were saying that in the sovereignty of God There is only a decree to be gracious to the elect.

There is not a decree of reprobation now Frequently it is misunderstood by enemies of Reformed Theology to mean that there is a

Predestination unto life and there is an equal predestination unto death and that these are the same

These are simply mirror images of the same thing. That's not the case reprobation and predestination are two different things one requires a active an act of grace towards sinners the other is

Really twofold it is a decree to act justly against sinners combined with a decree to not

Extend grace to a particular individual now Calvin very clearly made reference to this

George Bryson's Favorite quote which I would have to dig out here someplace and and don't really have it just lying in front of me but George Bryson, I think in the first 20 minutes or so of the

Bible Answer Man program We did back in 2003 Read this quote and he brings it up almost every time that he talks about it where Calvin in the

Institutes and and actually now that I think about I have my Institutes within Hand reach here.

So maybe very very very very quickly. I can because I know that I have it. I have it

Marked fairly fairly clearly. I believe it's in chapter 21 of book 3 as we're going through the

I Thought it was right toward the beginning of of the section

Anyway, he he makes the Yeah, here it is. Hey, that was pretty quick actually not using a computer page this is

Institutes book 3 chapter 21 section 5 We call predestination

God's eternal decree by which he compacted with himself That he willed to be what what he willed to become of each man for all or not create an equal condition

Rather eternal life is foreordained for some eternal damnation for others Therefore as any man has been created to one or the other of these ends

We speak of him as predestined to life or to death and so since there is that second element including reprobation

I think you'd have a hard time arguing that Calvin did not believe in what later becomes called double predestination

I don't think that's terminology that he used but it Develops at a later point, but so for me

Many would argue that any form of predestination Has to be double to be logical in other words if if there is if God is is fully aware of the entirety of the human race and He chooses to show mercy undeserved mercy to sinners and elect number of sinners then is there not by the limitation of that decree a

Decree being made concerning the others and the single predestinarian wants to say no

It is merely a passive passing over of those already appropriately condemned

But the double predestinarian says look if this is if this is done in eternity past And it is it is inalterable then

If he knows that John Brown is going to exist and he knows that John Brown is going to be fallen in Adam And he does not choose to extend grace to John Brown Then there is a decree there whether it is it isn't a positive decree to force the man to do something, but it is a decree at any point and You really are left going.

Well doesn't God have a purpose even in the ungodly? I mean if you're going to affirm that God is going to Be glorified in the demonstration of his justice and his holiness upon those who love their sin and continue to practice it then there is a purpose for John Brown as well, and it's

It's it's a purpose that Is a part of his sovereign decree so?

You know Almost at least in my experience over the past number of years almost every time

I use some here's someone using that that phraseology They're using it in an improper way to say that there is an absolute equality between the decree of salvation

And the decree of reprobation which is not the case Generally they're not using it in in the more stricter sense of recognizing that God's decree as Calvin stated there includes all men and includes a purpose for all men and includes the the positive decree of election and the life as well as the reprobation of those who love their sin and continue therein so That's how

I would define the difference between the two Hopefully that was helpful for you

All right speaking of turrets and fan from a secret location Man, you are a man of mystery even though.

I do know you're a Russian. How are you sir doing? Well? Thank you Yes, sir the the comfort book, what is the which book are we talking about the

The guide or the the text of the New Testament Testament it's transmission, etc.

Yes, sir. My question is comparing that book to Metzger's Textual commentary on the

New Testament in terms of Use on a practical level if we're trying to look up and see what is the original text say?

Would you have a recommendation as to to which of those two to pick up or to pick up both of them? Uh well, honestly, and this is gonna surprise some people if I was only gonna have one of the two

I'd get comfort and The reason for that is it is so much bigger and fuller

Remember Metzger is limited to almost totally limited to the variants that are cited

By the UBS text and that is a small number I if I recall correctly and I'd have to check this and I I don't want to make a fool of myself

But if I recall correctly, there's there's a very small number relatively speaking of variants that are cited in the

UBS text because they chose the variants on the basis of using the

UBS text as a Basis for translations and other languages and so they did not include variants that would not necessarily

Impact a major translation into a foreign language, you know, like for the Wycliffe translators or something like that So the

Metzger commentary is is as you've seen it's rather small in comparison the the comfort commentary is huge and Covers a much wider variety.

The other advantage that the comfort commentary has is that it's not only lists the the variant itself

But then it also gives you an English translation of what the variants are and reflects what major translations

Have done with that variant and then generally in each instance The discussion is much fuller in in comfort than it is in Metzger.

He's trying to do something differently than Metzger did now Philip comfort is disliked sort of like I am by some of the snootier people in the in the textual critical community

Because he's somewhat of an outsider and he's frequently too conservative for them. So keep that in mind

You'll find some negative stuff stated about him But so far I have been extremely impressed with when

I've turned to the to that commentary As to the the breadth and depth of the information that it said that it provides so I would

I would go with comfort obviously having both is extremely useful and in fact if you want to have a

Real wide variety if you have the comfort commentary you have Metzger Which by which by the way

Metzger is available in libratics as well And if you have Wallace's It's primarily

Dan Wallace's comments found in the textual critical notes in the NET or in the longer textual critical notes

Attached to the NET that are found in the diaglot that that we make available as well

You put the three of those together and let me let me put it this way You often when you look at critical commentaries have to dig and dig and dig to find just a few words on a textual variant in and it take you forever and you dig and dig and dig you have those three and You will have a gold mine in comparison to what you dig out of most

Critical commentaries as far as the textual variant information is concerned. I Guess I had one follow -up question, which is

So of comfort it would he be someone who would hold to inerrancy and would that be reflected in his?

Choices of the the best reading. I noticed that in Metzger. It seems as though sometimes his lack of belief in inerrancy

Motivates some of his selections towards an original reading which was Erroneous and therefore was later corrected by scribe, right?

I Don't know Philip Comfort personally my understanding would be that he would be more conservative than Metzger But I don't know

If he would affirm the Chicago statement or not, that would be something I'd be interested in discovering He's he's teaching.

I might be worthwhile of finding out my my gut feeling would be yes, but I'm I Don't want to go on record at that point because I've not read any particular

Discussion of his on those particular issues, so I can't represent him at that point, but his materials online you might be able to find out

He might have a you know somewhere of a statement of faith or something like that that would give you that that information

All right. Thank you sir. All right. God bless. Bye. Bye All right, so that's we still got a few minutes just Five minutes here.

Let's talk to Johnny in California. Hi, Johnny. Hey, how you doing James doing good good? Yeah question about the five pillars of Islam I was having a conversation with a friend of mine, and he was telling me that dr

Robert Maury did a debate with Shabir Ali back in I guess the 90s Yes, he did on on this subject.

I think he debated more than once but in one particular debate he debated the subject of the whether or not the five pillars of Islam existed before Muhammad in the

Quran and I guess some somehow during the debate I haven't actually seen it my friend did but he said that during the debate

Shabir Ali he acknowledged that that was the case that the five pillars did exist and He what

I was under the understanding of is that this a is actually in the Quran That the five pillars are only in I haven't read it but that the five pillars are are are originate with Muhammad in the

Quran and all that stuff and So the question that I have is is that in the Quran number one and number two is if it is how do

Muslim scholars Interact with that and I guess thirdly

Thirdly what relevance is there to that particular point well hmm

I can only go on the basis of listen the debate that I heard because I I I Think that I know what that's coming from from the debate that I did here, and I've listened to it many times

In fact, I've played it here. I've played portions of it I did not want to play all of it because it was rather embarrassing to be honest with you

I Think that what's being referred to here is that there was a discussion in the debate that I heard wherein there was a discussion of Those elements of the

Islamic faith that pre -existed Muhammad for example we know and is acknowledged by everyone that the

Jalil of Arabs the the Arabs prior to Muhammad those during the period of ignorance as it is identified by Muslims Worshipped at the

Kaaba they did falafel around the Kaaba They did it naked, but they it was part of the worship of the

The the Arabs before him so you had a form of Hajj You did have forms of zakat you did have prayers.

I don't know that they would be the same In the same time frame the same order, but you'd have salat you'd have prayers.

I don't know how you would parallel the shahada to something prior to Muhammad because there's questions about the development of the shahada even after Muhammad you can find in the

Quran La ilaha illallah, but you will not find well Muhammad and Rasool Allah so In I mean together in that form

So there's questions about when that actually developed During the first 70 some odd years and and so on so forth so there's a lot of discussions of all of that And I do recall that That Shabir argued that while there might be similarities and things like that you could draw similar things between Certain practices in Jerusalem and other nations or things like that.

I have a feeling that's probably what was being Derived there now my recollection was that in the in the debate the argument was well

You know if Muhammad didn't come up with any of this and yet It says that he received all this from heaven Then this would indicate that Islam is not a religion revealed to Muhammad from heaven in the

Quran But that he simply took and cobbled together pre -existing stuff and made something new out of it

I think that would would probably be the argument that was being presented And so I I don't think that Shabir was was quote -unquote agreeing with that or admitting that that was the case

But I think that that was the case that was being argued especially in light of Maury's argument about the moon

God Being a law and and things like that. I think that was the context in which that came up Just briefly

I cannot recommend that debate from a Christian perspective I I really felt that the the presentation made by dr.

Maury was extremely disrespectful and as I've mentioned he he pressed some issues where he was just simply wrong

About some hadith stories that was just embarrassing just just embarrassing from a Christian perspective. So hopefully that's helpful to you

Johnny Thanks for your call. Sorry, we ran out of time Thank you for listening to that. Thank you to the callers for helping us through the last half hour

Of the program we'll see you on Tuesday Lord willing. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

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