Dr. James White, Dr. Stephen Wolfe and a VERY Reasonable Latino

All right, everybody. Welcome back to the channel. I hope you had a good weekend a good Lord's Day a good everything

Welcome. Welcome back. We're gonna get started actually this week. This is the beginning and the end of the week for videos

I've got a secret mission that I'm leaving for tomorrow And I'll probably do some shorts and stuff like that But this will be the full video for the week and I cannot wait for you guys to see the results of the mission

It's going to be a lot of fun. I'm looking forward to everybody seeing it But in any case

I did want to just quickly address Some of the drama. I don't really do a lot of drama on this channel every now and then

I'll get into it But some of the drama with dr. James White and dr. Stephen Wolfe, you know,

I love both of them. I think they're both Good people and I like what both have to say a lot of the time

It definitely seems to from a third parties perspective. It definitely seems to be some personal feelings

Flying around that whole controversy, but I wanted to offer my Take just from a peacemakers perspective, you know, because ad

Robles is here to help. I know you guys get it Yeah, so I'm gonna try to help if I can

But let's you know, let's just jump into it. I had to pop three sins in order to get through this So we're ready to go so this is a

Mean, this is kind of a bit of a troll that Stephen typically does that I think is I think it actually is a meaningful troll, but Dr.

James White did not appreciate it. Here's Josh Bice who I have. I don't know him at all So I have no feelings one way or the other

Got Owen Strawn here who I do know a little bit and I definitely have feelings about Anyway, here's the picture.

They've got a picture and they're at Samuel Rutherford's tomb And Josh says I had the privilege to visit the

Cathedral ruins at st. Andrews with our g3 ministries tour group I snapped this picture next to Sam Rutherford Rutherford's grave with my friend

Owen Strawn and Then he puts a quote of Samuel Rutherford that I guess he approves of and he says hashtag church history matters

And here's the picture of the two friends standing by Rutherford's tomb and all of that and Stephen said

You both would excommunicate Rutherford Because Stephen, you know he he draws a lot from Rutherford and his work and his things like that and it's the stuff that Josh Bice would

Strongly stand against in the strongest terms here. I stand I can do no other that's not Josh That's Owen, but they're they're like honoring the prophet that people ought to say they're honoring the prophets

But if they were here today, you would stone them that comes straight from the Bible Jesus says that to the Pharisees, you know, you honor the prophets with your mouth but if they were here today, you'd have them up on a cross basically is what he said and so, you know

Stephen has been saying this quite a bit. You both would excommunicate Rutherford. You both would excommunicate Calvin You'd excommunicate

Luther all these guys that you guys revere all a lot of Stephen's ideas In fact, pretty much all of them come from that tradition

And so, you know, we're taking the reformers seriously and not just in the areas related to you know the gospel but also in areas related to civil governing authority and things like that and because of that you're you're you're

Basically casting us down into outer darkness. That's what he's saying. He's basically, you know kind of trying to Use the same thing that Jesus said about the prophets about these guys, you know, they'll honor his tomb

But when I start talking about civil governing authority from Rutherford, you think I'm a heretic So Hold on gotta find it.

Here we go. So James dr. James White Kind of responds to this and he he says

This he says sigh Long morning so far my response to another wolf is wolfism is yeah, so So he's affirming.

Yeah, he would Excommunicate Samuel Rutherford if he had the opportunity He says in 2017

I got to lead a wonderful group of folks on a Reformation tour in Germany literally a few weeks before the 500th anniversary

Here's one of my favorite pictures. You've seen it before where I'm preaching from the pulpit at Castle Church in Wittenberg Luther is buried directly below me.

The sermon is on YouTube. Every single person on that trip will tell you the same thing I never caricatured the

Reformers though. I do know that happens all the time I told the truth about the Reformation all of it even to the point of causing discomfort for some in the group

I started out the first night in Berlin pointing out that many of the men we would be discussing would never have extended to us the

Right hand of fellowship and yet we discussed them honored them and were thankful for their lives and ministries

This is what a mature study of church history requires honesty grace and context

Disagree with the great servant of the past. Well, you can Dave hunt them and kick them out of the kingdom or You can recognize the context in which they lived

Consider their theological perspectives the knowledge they did or did not have and make a judgment at that point

But as I have always said remember that you someday may be judged by those who come after you

Will you need grace then? Will you wish those future people would honestly place you in our context and not judge you by the standards?

You don't know So we can visit such places and thank God for men who came before us even while honestly admitting our differences

We are simply children if we can't do this And and I want to say this with respect because you know

Dr. James White has forgotten more about church history than I've ever known. It's as simple as that And so I'm not

I cannot challenge him on any aspect of history proper And also, dr

James White is a very logical thinker in in in almost every area and he's a very careful thinker and he's a very

In my opinion good thinker, you know, I I appreciate you know, so much of what

I've learned from dr. James White in fact, I remember when I was recently converted

I bought his book on Islam because I had so many friends that were Muslim at the time and They Muslims are great because they're they're willing to talk about spiritual things, you know, they're they're open about they want to talk about it

You know, they want to talk about Jesus Of course, they want to do it from a Muslim perspective But I wanted to understand kind of what

Islam was all about and things like that And of course, I talked to my friends about it, but you know, some of them were like, you know part -timers, you know

That's what they call it part -time Muslims, you know things like that. So I wanted to know kind of what the documents It was a very helpful book.

In fact, he sent it and it was even a signed copy of that book, which was great So I appreciate dr.

James White's thoughts and I I've learned so much from dr. James White. There's just no question about it But I got to be honest.

I I don't understand how this I Think doctor maybe this is the personal aspect of the the fight between him and dr.

Stephen Wolfe it This is kind of rear and it's ugly head. I Don't see how this addresses the point at all because when

I look at Stephen saying you would excommunicate Samuel Rutherford What I see

Stephen doing and he's trolling. I mean, there's no question about it. That's it. That's a bit of a troll It's a bit of a meme, right?

But behind the troll there's a there's an important point there what I see Stephen Saying is not

I know you're wrong because you would excommunicate Samuel Rutherford What I see him saying is he's asking

For a little bit of grace for himself and for his friends It's not that he's saying, you know, you guys are idiots or anything like that He's just pointing out that this man that you guys honor and rightfully so he's not against you honoring him despite your differences

But the fact that you would honor him in this way that you would want you would seek to take a picture at his

Grave and as if it's in keep it as like a trophy, you know, and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that It's fine.

You can do that. I you know, it's not a kind of a picture that I would take but that's okay You don't know what has to do things the way

I do it But you would do this to this man that had the the same ideas that I'm putting forward today and wanting to bring into our modern context and You have no grace for me

Why is it that you have grace for Samuel Rutherford you should I'm not saying you shouldn't

But he's asking He's pleading I think For just a little bit of grace for me

I'm not this monster. I'm not this evil, you know, like secret guy

That's bringing these new ideas that have never been thought of before that are that it's just it's it's it's a it's a it's an

Innovation to the faith. It's like I'm not doing that I'm going back to the very guys that you all honor and revere and love

And of course you differ from them, but you do it from a place of grace you do it from a place of Respect you do it from a play a brotherly affection for these guys

It's it's kind of like you're it's kind of like you're you're you're you're your grandparents, right? was every now and then your grandparents will say something that you think is totally off and On the inside your face palming like I've done this before and sometimes

I've done it inappropriately and there's no question about that Let me done inappropriately, but you do it like this on the inside, but on the outside you man

Samuel Rutherford was just a beast, you know, that guy was awesome. You know, I mean I beast in a good way

I don't mean, you know monster That guy was awesome. He brought so much value to the church. He was such a blessing.

His ministry was such a blessing and We can talk about some of his warts, but man, he was a blessing

Why can you do that with the dead prophets of the past? But today when people take their words and there's those were good ideas even the stuff that you know

We haven't really talked about so much, you know in our churches Even that has some value and let's talk about some of that stuff because I think that applies to the situation

We find ourselves in today. Why is there no grace for? me It's as if like it's not it's not even that there's less grace.

It's that there's none for me It's that when I bring this stuff back from Rutherford and from others and and you hear it for the first time

You're like, oh, that's heresy That's heresy I'm not talking disagreement like that Excludes you from the cross of Christ.

I don't even know if you know Christ if you're saying that and Stephen lays these traps and guys if you're still fooled by these traps

You got to really reconsider how you engage on social media You should not be fooled by these traps that Stephen lays all the time.

He'll say something in his own words He'll say something that is not acceptable to the regimes today.

It's not acceptable to the typical evangelical today He'll say it and you'll get a wall of people say that's heresy.

That's there that you know You know just calling them all kinds of things And a few minutes later, he drops the quotation and it's from Calvin and it's from Luther.

It's from you know, Rutherford It's from all of you. It's in Zwingli. Well, whatever it is, right and It's saying the same thing that Stephen just got done saying without quoting it

You said it was heresy, but it turns out that's actually something Rutherford taught Stephen is not saying you need to agree with him.

You know what I mean? He's not saying Rutherford said it therefore. It's true and you have to agree with it

What he is saying though, is that your modern mind has been so modernized

That you cannot distinguish between something that an idea that maybe you disagree with but that it excludes you from the church and One that does not exclude you from the church, but maybe you disagree with it.

He does this all the time Why is grace only? retroactive

For so many of you is what he's saying. That's what he's saying when he says you would excommunicate, you know, whoever

I see it as a as a Request as a plea for just a little bit of grace just a little bit

It's not like Stephen Wolf is over on an island somewhere and he's been excommunicated from his church and his church has kicked him out

And he's refused to stop and he's just continues to teach this errant doctrine Even despite the fact that he's no longer a member of a church.

It's not like that He's a member of a church.

His elders are in authority over him. They know what he writes. They know what he's like They know his life.

They know his family and he's a member in good standing of a church and Not some what we a woo -woo, you know wonky church that nobody knows about like it's

I am pretty sure it's an OPC Church And these these every single time he says you would excommunicate

Ruth Rutherford Rutherford, he's not saying you're stupid He's saying what like why can't you give me just a little bit of?

Grace and and here James White.

He kind of says the same thing. He says will you need grace? He says as I've always said remember that you someday may be judged by those who come after you.

Will you need grace then? Yes, in fact, I need it now

In fact, I'd like it now You can't demand grace, of course, he's not gonna demand it but he's just wondering out loud

Why is there so much grace retroactively and so little grace today?

Where there's people that say things that Luther would have said or Zwingli would have said or Calvin was that doesn't make it right

He's not that stupid to think that just because somebody said something a church father said something That means it's automatically right.

You don't have to agree with Stephen This is my point and this is what people wonder Why do I defend Stephen especially when they know that there are things about?

Stephen's work that I might not agree with it. I'd have a problem with or I don't know, you know, Stephen, you know, oftentimes

Rebukes theonomy. I'm a theonomist I'm okay with it. You know what

I mean? I'm okay with it. It's fine What why why

Why is it that? It was okay for Rutherford to the point where you'd even honor him today, and that's fine.

Nobody's saying you shouldn't But it excludes you from the grace of God today

Dr. White he's not talking about the future. Yes, he would agree that he would want people to judge him from the future in his context

He would you would want them to have grace for him. He's not against grace for people with which you disagree

That's the point of what he's saying James dr. White with respect

So quick editing note here. I'm editing right now and at this point it sounds like I'm like like Saying that dr.

White doesn't understand this but actually if there's any person That understands this it's it is dr.

White and and actually, you know, Doug Wilson falls into this category, too Like like I've seen dr.

White interact with and be Brotherly with and and work with people that he disagrees with very sharply

Doug Wilson does the same thing as well It's very clear though that they understand that there are friends out there that are there

You know, they're gonna have different wild different wildly different beliefs on some areas But you could still work with them

The but the point though is that it certainly seems like the g3 camp not all of them necessarily, but You know some of the louder ones they don't understand this and that's why that's why

I think that Steven addressed this to them and it's like And I do think though that that that for whatever reason that you know

A lot of people that you maybe even do understand this to some degree. They don't extend the same thing to Steven They don't extend it to Steven for whatever reason and I think

I have some ideas as to why but you know I'd rather not go into that. So so so James like understands this

Full well, I think You know, but but it's it's

It's not well understood in that general camp the g3 camp

And and every time Steven lays this trap that he does it's so clear that this is not well understood

And so so that's the thing. It's like we know, you know, we we have to have some kind of Room for people to have

Different views about what a nation is and what it ought to be and all of these kinds of things

Without instantly jumping to the MSNBC rhetoric and Unfortunately g3 has not done this and they continue to not do this and it doesn't have to be this way

That's what I've been saying from the beginning of this controversy It does not have to be with it way this way, especially on the issue of race.

We are collectively Terrible about thinking through issues of race with a level head

We are terrible at it And so every time you feel those feelings, you know inside you when somebody says something about race

That doesn't sound quite right to you. You feel that emotion in you My advice has always been take a step back.

Don't quickly respond. Don't quickly, you know rebuke Think it through let the person explain themselves

Let that talk it out with them things like that before you go jumping on that bandwagon allow them the grace today

That you would afford Rutherford of the past or Calvin of the past and things like that That's that's all

I'm saying here so I didn't I just wanted to put that edit in there because because I It kind of sounded when

I was talking that I was saying that James white It doesn't know this but but actually he does know this.

It's really more You know Owen and some of these other guys That's that's all he's asking for with that We can visit such places and thank

God for the men who came before us even while honestly admitting our differences Can we not dr.

White? Thank God for men contemporary with us Even while honestly admitting our differences

You ask the question or you you state we're simply children if we can't do this.

Dr. White. I agree We're simply children if we can't do this

If I turned my back on Stephen Wolfe's entire project Because he has bad things to say about you know

Bonson or Rush Dooney or Vantill. I Would be a child That's the point

He's asking for you to use a standard that makes sense

Give him a little bit of room Again, it's I can understand at least to some degree if it was an innovation if it was something new if it was something that No one's ever said before But that's not what

Stephen Wolfe's project is It's a it's it's bringing stuff back from these men that were that were some of these men dr.

Why you would agree? I think there were geniuses Calvin was a genius and you you want to you know, maybe we maybe we've missed something

With some of what they said about the civil governing authority or natural law or whatever it is

Maybe we've missed some of that. Maybe we discarded it too quickly for More modern ideas regarding God's law and I get

I'm a theonomist So and I love Vantill and all this stuff. So, you know, I get it. I get it

Can he have a little room Can he have a little grace? But when he brings something back

From these men that that that that you know, you would be proud look at them sticking their chests out

Proud to have been to the place where Samuel Rutherford was buried When I when

I bring some of that stuff back that maybe was in my opinion discarded a little too quickly Can I have a little room to work with that and to think through that without my brothers in Christ?

Casting me into outer darkness with not even one ounce of grace

For me, that's what he's saying. Dr. White That's what it's yeah, he's trolling.

I get it. And there's some personal stuff here. I get it I'm not saying you'd have to like the guy, you know what I mean?

I can like people that don't like each other I saw Michael Foster post something like that the other day. It's so true.

It's so true, but I wonder like I Think you missed it here.

Dr. White. I really do. I mean good for you if you would execute their

Excommunicate Good for you if you would excommunicate Samuel Rutherford today

I mean, I guess if that's that's how you want to be. Okay, that's that's your business. You're an elder.

I'm not My point though, is that Can we have a little grace today?

Don't just don't just put grace into the future where the people in the future should judge you, you know with grace

How about you judge your brothers today? With just a little bit of grace That's it

It's as simple as that And so I hope that was helpful. I hope that was

I'm here to help. I hope it was reasonable. I hope it was you know It was an attempt to to to have a little bit of peace here.

You know, I like fighting on Twitter So I'm not gonna be against fighting on Twitter I'm all about it, but I just think that you're missing what his point is here

He's he's looking for a little grace. You show grace to the dead prophets How about showing a little bit of grace today?