The doctrine of double imputation

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Arminianism, Lutheranism, Churches of Christ, and oh yeah, Doug Wilson

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You can say what you want, but you won't around me, black sheep among misfits, a misfit in the trailer park at night, a misprint with the six cents, been sick ever since my brother died of an
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OD, my two cents never made sense, either to me or anyone else inside of the dotted line, tell me what's the bottom line, the bottom line is
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I'm not right, I'm not left, but this elephant won't fight, there's nothing left but the spotlight, hold my peer, you can find me in the moonlight, you can say what you want.
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All right, I figure I'll cut it short tonight. We've got a deep, deep, deep topic.
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Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Open Air Theology. We are a show. We are not a podcast.
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We are a show, apparently. My name is Jeff, and I am one of the pastors of Covenant Reformed Baptist Church.
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We meet here in Tallahoma, Tennessee. If you're ever in the area, please stop by and check us out. And I'm here with my good buddy,
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Haps and Brayden. Brayden, tell us who you are, brother. Yeah, I have the privilege of being the pastor of Valley Baptist Church in Hagerman, Idaho.
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If you live in the area, I would love to see you this Sunday. We're going to be starting in the book of Haggai this week, so I'm looking forward to it.
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I also have a YouTube channel called Reformed Ex -Mormon. I would encourage you and love for you to come check out the videos on there, and it's a blessing to be here with some awesome brothers in Christ on Open Air Theology on the show, podcast, hour to talk, whatever we want to call it.
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So I'll pass it over to you, Haps. Well, howdy doody, y 'all.
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This is Pastor Happy with All Branch Ministries, and I'm also the host of R &B
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Studios with my brothers from another mother right here, and I'm excited about tonight, man.
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Maybe we can help clarify some things in this doctrine, and maybe we can learn some things.
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There's some things I want to learn, too, so I'm excited. Yeah, so tonight we're going to be talking about double imputation, the doctrine of imputation.
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And, you know, we'll get into some Lutheranism, Arminianism, churches of Christ, and that Dougie Doug Fresh guy,
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Doug Wilson. Yeah, we hear that he's causing some trouble, and you can go check it out.
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When is he not, right? Yeah, yeah, but we love him, so we're going to, with every one of them that we're going to talk about tonight, whether it be
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Arminianism, Lutheranism, the churches of Christ, and oh yeah, that Doug guy.
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We want to be gracious. This is not a ministry that chases down people that says stuff that we disagree with and throw them into the mud.
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Now, the reason why I pose this conversation to my good buddies here, partners in this ministry, is because, like,
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I kind of walk on both sides of this fence, because, you know, like, so TheoCast, which is a good podcast, which
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I listen to, which I support, love the guys. They really come out hard against Doug Wilson, but also against John MacArthur and against John Piper, and what they have to say, you know,
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I agree with, because, you know, I have issues with final justification concerning John Piper.
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I have issues with the Lordship salvation concerning John MacArthur, but they're really hammering hard on Doug Wilson, and there's some things about Doug Wilson.
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I'm not here to take up for Doug Wilson. Doug Wilson's a big boy. There's things about Doug Wilson that I 100 % disagree with, right?
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He's Presbyterian. I'm Baptist. He, you know, for some reason, there is a whole lot of controversy around him.
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I try to stay away from controversy. Like, I think he needs to tone it down some. I think he needs to un -money the waters.
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I don't like the fact that he changes, like he gives stuff a new title, like concerning the theonomy movement.
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You know, he's taking the general equity, like if you are reformed, you owe to the general equity, but he's come into the mix, and he's calling it general equity theonomy, and we want to say that we love theonomy, because that's what it means.
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It means God's law, but theonomy was basically established as something else, which was
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Christian reconstructionism back in, I believe, the 80s, and so it already has a definition that someone has taken
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God's law, and they framed it as something, and so now he's saying, well, we're theonomists, but we're general equity, and by doing so, it muddies the water.
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Why can't we just say we're, you know, we are reformed, and because we're reformed, we're general equity.
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We don't have to give it a name that we have to necessarily explain the name.
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So there's things about Doug that I disagree with, and if this quote that I'm you know,
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I think taking out of context, like if I take this quote out of context, like it really makes me mad.
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It pisses me off if I'm honest, right? Like it gets me upset, but we're not going to take it out of context, and we're going to be gracious to Doug.
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I think I can say for every one of us, you know, we still believe he's a
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Christian. Oh, yeah. I love Doug, man. Yeah, I love him, too. I listen to him often, often, often, and he helps clarify a lot of things.
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Yep, absolutely. I think he does a great job on a lot of areas. Yeah, absolutely. And like I appreciate what you said, though, and I know we'll talk about it later, but like that's the hard part.
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When somebody takes a quote out of context, it just mingles those words up way, way too much, and so we'll get into the context of what's being said there,
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I'm sure, later and discuss those things and look at it. Because that's the,
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I'm sure each one of us have had things that we've said in the past that have been taken out of context, manipulated, and then made it sound like it's not what you were saying.
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Right? Right, right. Oh, yeah, yeah. But like I was saying, like I'm good with both groups.
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Like, you know, you have the Fight, Laugh, Feast group, the Canon Press group. I love them. I'm good with these guys.
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But then you have the guys that they are against, the Theocast group. And I'm good with these guys.
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Like, I love the guys on both sides. And so, you know, there's a lot of things that I agree with on both sides.
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And so, but I just want to be fair. And so the reason why
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I want to bring in, excuse me, Armenianism, Lutheranism, Churches of Christ, is to kind of un -muddy some water here in a little bit.
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But first, let's get into the doctrine, the doctrine of double imputation.
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Brayden, would you mind giving that a stab? Yeah. And we'll walk through it, talk through it.
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Yeah. So is it okay if I want to read two things real fast? I want to read 1 Corinthians 5, where I think that each one of us would go to at first to discuss this topic of double imputation.
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But 2 Corinthians 5, verse 21, it says, And I think that the next place
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I'm just going to read to help us understand that, that verse right there, other than what it says, and it's very clear and what the implication of it is, is chapter 11 in 1689, paragraph 1.
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It says, or any other gospel obedience to them as their righteousness.
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Instead, he imputes Christ's active obedience to the whole law and passive obedience in his death as their whole and only righteousness by faith.
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This faith is not itself, or is not self -generated, excuse me, not self -generated.
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It is the gift of God. And so that's really a quick, good little definition of justification.
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But with that double imputation, it's the thinking that my sin has been imputed into Christ's account and Christ paid for it on the cross.
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He who knew no sin, who never sinned, never broke God's law. He paid the penalty of my sin very, very literally on the cross.
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And then that righteousness from that active life of him obeying God's law and never violating it once, that act of obedience is then therefore imputed into my account, thus being a double imputation of both a positive and a negative going towards the other individual.
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Yeah, it's kind of like this idea of, you know, like most all
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Christendom would say that Christ died for our sins. Right. But not all of them would say that he lived for us.
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I would say that he actually died for my sins because he actually lived the life for me.
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Yep. Like with me, I don't see how it can be any other way. Right.
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I mean, OK, because I and I've probably said this before.
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I know this is something that I say whenever I'm preaching the gospel. Let me first read a quote from the beloved
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R .C. Sproul, the Baptist. Ha ha ha.
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Yeah, because R .C. Sproul, when he used to talk about John the Baptist, he would say, I call him
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John the Presbyterian. So now that he has passed, I call him R .C.
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the Baptist. Yeah, that's pretty good. So so this is a quote from him.
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He says, without imputation, there is no justification and without justification, there is no gospel.
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That's R .C. Sproul. We'll read that again. Without imputation, there is no justification and without justification, there is no gospel.
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All right. This takes us to the the incarnation. All right. Jesus being the the
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God man, truly God, truly man. In order in order for the
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Bible's clear that man cannot keep God's law and that God cannot die. Right.
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God cannot die. And man, because of sin, we're born into sin.
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We we Adam is our covenant federal head of Romans chapter five.
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He brought death and sin into the world. We're born dead in our trespasses and sin.
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Ephesians two. Yes. We cannot keep God's law because we're sinners for all have sin and fallen short of the glory of God.
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How do we know we sin? Because we're going to die. The wages of sin is death. Death is the paycheck for our sinning.
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So in order. So so Jesus, the son of God, enters into creation, the incarnation, he becomes a man.
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Jesus had to be truly God in order to keep the law. Yeah.
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Right. And he had to be truly man in order to die for our sins. Right.
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The life that he lived, we're saying that the life that he lived as God, keeping the law.
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That life is counted to us the same way that our sin is counted to him at his death, at his punishment.
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So in the same way that he took on himself, sin became sin. We take on become his righteousness.
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Right. I would say you cannot have one without the other. And that's and that's why there's this inconsistency in in Christianity.
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Even those I would say even those who don't believe in the act of obedience of Christ still share in the benefits of the act of obedience of Christ.
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Yeah. Yeah. You see what I'm saying? Because we don't have to have perfect knowledge of theology to be saved.
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Yeah. And that and this is why I want to bring in. You know, these other we're reformed, right?
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Every one of us were 1689 reformed Baptist, 1689 Federalist covenant theology.
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We're not dispensational. We you know, we we we we we believe in the
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Bible and we have a confession that that leads us and gives us a small systematic theology.
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So. Now, one of the things that I fear is taking place here, like the reason why people deny this is because they don't want to believe that a believer cannot lose his salvation.
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Right, because if Jesus actually did live the life for me, that means that I cannot lose the life that he lived.
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If I'm credited with his righteousness to say that I can lose salvation is to say that the life that he lived wasn't good enough.
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And so I think that's a big reason why it's denied. They deny it so they can hold to their belief that Christians can lose their salvation.
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Any thoughts? Yeah. You know, I would just like to add, you know,
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I wrote down a couple of things. It's really going along the same lines as the both of you and everything, you know, that, you know, the the the sinner is declared righteous because of the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
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And that righteousness of Christ both includes his act of obedience in a band of law, as well as his passive obedience for paying for our sins with his vindication at the resurrection, which we also get.
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You know, and, you know, I was like I was reading, you know, getting ready for the conference, you know, the open air theology conference up in Tennessee, you know, this this
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February and stuff. I've been like way into John Owens right now. I'm reading his book on the
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Holy Spirit and it's just like twisting my cat back. But I came across, you mind if I read this real fast?
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Go ahead. From John Owens, man. Oh, my gosh, man. It just was the way he says it right here on double imputation just was awesome.
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And then this is from his book of communion with God, volume two in the chapter of works, page 176.
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He says our absolution from the guilt of sin that our disobedience be not changed upon us.
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This we have by by the death of Christ, our sins being imputed to him shall not be imputed to us.
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Second Corinthians 521, Romans 425, Isaiah 5312.
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And he also goes on to say imputation of righteousness that we may be accounted perfectly righteous, perfectly righteous.
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You know, that's what got me right there. Perfectly righteous before God. And this we have by the life of Christ.
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His righteousness is yielding obedience to the law as imputed to us.
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And thus is our expectation with God completed being discharged from the guilt of our disobedience by the death of Christ and having the righteousness of the life of Christ imputed to us.
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We have friendship and peace with God. And this is that which
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I call our grace of expectation with God where we have communing with Jesus Christ.
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And I was just like, wow, man, that is that really just twisted my cat back, you know, as I was studying for tonight and everything.
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It's just I'm going to go back and actually read that book.
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But, yeah, I think that that, you know, if we don't understand original sin, we were talking about this earlier.
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If we don't understand original sin and we don't understand the ramifications of that and we don't understand why
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God had it come in the flesh and why he had to live a perfect life and why he had to completely and totally keep all the commandments of God.
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And that he took our sins and he took the very wrath of God upon himself so that we might have.
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He that knew no sin became sin so that we might have the righteousness of God. And I think that if we don't we don't understand the double imputation, we don't understand original sin also in the life that Christ lived.
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Then we can go up into what you guys were discussing last week, and that's pietism.
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You know, you can go off straight up and and then the self -righteousness comes up. And the next thing you know, you're living a life of false piety, actually, you know, because now it's dependent on us and my performance.
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And then it just becomes workspace and it's not pointing it to the final work on the cross to tell us die.
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It is finished. So. Yeah, right.
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No, I completely agree with that. There's a couple different Bible verses that are popping in my mind, you know, because we also retain that that Christ is living today at the right hand of the father.
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And that even according to Ephesians chapter two, when we were dead in our sins and trespasses, he made us alive together with him.
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And yeah, it says that. Let me turn into it real fast. I don't misquote it. So, yeah,
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Ephesians chapter two, verse five and on. It says, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us life together with Christ by grace, you've been saved and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
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And so when we and the other verse that came to my mind where I'm kind of tying these things together a little bit is
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Romans chapter five, verse 17 and 18. It says, for if the by for if by the transgression of the one death reign through one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the one
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Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression, the result of condemnation to all men, even through one act of righteousness, their receipt, their resulted justification of life to all men.
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And so it's so important to understand that. The active obedience that Christ has given to us is is secure in the fact that he is resurrected and he's standing at the right hand of the father right now.
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He sat us with him in the heavenly places. He's still living the life that I can't live right now in a glorified state.
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And and he's my representative in that way. He is active. He is active in that way.
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Yeah. So it's it's important to realize that. No, it's not that he just paid my sins.
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And now, as long as I keep an obedient life, I'm I'm I'm right. No, my my savior lives.
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He lived perfectly before he lives today. And he's living for me. And it's no longer
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I who live, but he who lives in me. Right. It's his righteousness. I think that's a really important thing to remember, that we can't deny that or else we do fall into legalism.
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We do fall into a form of thinking that you're justified by faith, but you're keeping that justification by obedience.
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That that's not that's not what happens. No, it's only through a crisis done. Right. Right. You know.
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Oh, go ahead. Yeah, I was just, you know, there's like over like 100 different verses on imputed imputation.
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I mean, you know, it's mind boggling, but I really like this one right here. First Corinthians one 30.
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It says, and because of him, you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption.
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And I, you know, when I, I, I, I just had to teach on this the other night and stuff.
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But, you know, Ephesians chapter one, where you have, you have the active elective work of the father, the active redemptive work of the son and the active protective work of the
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Holy Spirit, you know, and, and God is active in your life, you know?
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Absolutely. It takes me out of the equation, you know, kind of breaking up a little bit.
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Oh, he's, he's frozen. He just frozen. Don't believe him.
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Frozen. Frozen. Did I break up? It looked like you guys broke up as far as I know.
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Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Oh, man. You're still kind of frozen, but I can hear your voice.
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I say you just keep on going, Jeff. Let me, let me do my router thing. Hold on. Yeah. So, so the
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Jews have what's called Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. And on the Day of Atonement, they would take, you know, two goats.
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They had to be the same, you know, same age, same weight, same cost, whatever it was, the two goats had to be the same.
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And they would pray the sins on the first goat. So they would pray, they would impute their sins onto this goat.
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Right? Yeah. I mean, you studied the Day of Atonement, and this goat was to basically take away the sins of the people.
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Now, I won't get into the whole system of it, but, but, but the Jews understood this idea of imputation.
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Now, I want to read real quick from 2 Corinthians, and I want to go off of what
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Haps was saying earlier about, about the fall of man.
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And I want you to understand that the fall of man that we're experiencing, we're not, you know, we don't daily experience
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Adam eating of the fruit. But we daily experience what took place moments after he ate the fruit.
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You see what I'm saying? So, in 1 Corinthians chapter 15,
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Paul is explaining seeds going into the ground. Unless it goes into the ground, it's not going to sprout.
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In verse 44, he says this. It is to, it is sown a natural body, and it is raised a spiritual body.
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It is, if there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
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Thus it is written, right here, the first man Adam became a living being. The last
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Adam becomes a life -giving spirit. So, it's given us the two, the two
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Adams, the first Adam and the last Adam. The first was physical, the last is spiritual.
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Right? And so, these two are going to be our covenant federal heads.
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Verse 46. But it is not the spiritual that is first, but the natural.
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And then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust.
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And the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, right here, listen, look for the imputation.
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As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust.
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And as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
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Just as we have born the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
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This is speaking of imputation. Whenever, because of Adam's sin, sin and death came into the world.
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We are born under Adam's covenant federal head. We are born into sin and we sin.
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You don't have to teach your kids how to sin. They know how to sin. You want to teach your kids about righteousness, right?
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You want to teach your kids not to sin. Same way that we are born into sin, born again.
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And the Christian, when he is born again, he takes on the man of heaven.
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This image of the man of heaven. His righteousness. That's imputed righteousness.
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The same way Abraham. Listen, if Christianity is true, Christianity is old.
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The same way Abraham was saved is the same way that I was saved. In the same way, if the
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Lord tarries 10 ,000 years from now, it will be the same way that these people 10 ,000 years from now are saved.
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And it's by faith. And by faith, you are imputed with righteousness.
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You are counted righteous. You are not righteous in and of yourself. Amen to that.
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And so whenever we're saying imputed righteousness, we're saying that God counts us righteous.
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We are positionally righteous. Now, a lot of people, they say, well, if you believe that, then I can live however I want to live.
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No, you can't. Because if you're born again, if you're born again, you are given a new nature.
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I mean. That's correct. So imagine. I think
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Paul Washer gives the image. Imagine God taking a pig and turning him into a man.
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When he's a pig, he can eat the slop. And in this slop, mud is mixed in with the slop.
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Right. He's eating mud. He's eating whatever is in whatever is there. Right. He's eating anything.
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But the moment God turns that pig into a man. And he bends down and eats out of the slop.
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He's going to be disgusted. And that's how it is when someone is regenerated, born again.
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That falls into sin. If there's someone that can actually live an act of sin.
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Listen. They might have prayed a prayer. They might have signed a card. They might have shook a hand. They might have been held underwater until they bubbled.
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But they were not born again. There's a difference. A born again believer is not going to live in sin.
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Yes, he will sin. But he won't live in it. He won't walk in it.
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He can't. The Father will discipline him. If he doesn't discipline him, he is an illegitimate child.
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Yep. You must be born from above. That's right. I've been mentioning that to my
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Presbyterian brothers for a while. There was a lot that I just really, really liked what you just said.
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Especially in our Reformed Baptist type of mind. Let me read from 1689 again. Chapter 11.
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Paragraph 6. And just something that you said, Jeff. Because I think that this is important for all
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Christians to understand this. In all these ways, the justification of believers under the
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Old Testament was exactly the same as the justification of believers under the
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New Testament. That's right. And so, again, anybody that was saved in the Old Covenant, during the
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Old Covenant, was saved because they were members of the New Covenant that Christ made for us.
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Where he has taken both groups, broken down the barrier wall so there's no distinction between Jew or Gentile.
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And he's made both into one group. And according to John chapter 10, he has other sheep that are not of this fold he too must gather so that they will be one fold with one shepherd.
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It's so important, I think, to realize that our justification is not distinct to just me or just to Jeff or just to the people of today.
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Right? I think it's so important to remember that anybody that is called gracefully, by grace, to this covenant that we are in, we are saved by the exact same means.
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There is not one person that was saved in the Old Testament by doing X, Y, or Z things.
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No, they had faith in the finished work of Christ. Just like us in the New Testament days are saved by having faith in the finished work of Christ.
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Right. And likewise, in that same saying, in the
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Old Testament, they were imputed the act of righteousness of Christ. Abraham. Amen to that.
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Abraham was reckoned righteousness. How could he be reckoned righteousness? Right. Because it's a foreign righteousness.
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It's not his righteousness. It was reckoned to him. Right? Romans chapter 4, Genesis chapter 15.
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We can go back and look at these things. I also heard people say, because I'm coming at this from the idea that the reason, in my head, the reason why people deny this doctrine is because the logical conclusion is that you can't lose your salvation.
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And so, people say, well, if I can't lose my salvation, if I'm saved and I can't lose my salvation, then what's the point of going to church?
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What's the point in doing good? Right. Well, with that attitude, it just shows that nothing really happened to you.
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You know, what's the point in a man eating slop? I also think it really lowers the role of the
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Holy Spirit. You know, that when you think you could lose your salvation, all this kind of stuff.
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And remember, we're sealed into the day of redemption. You know, that this is the act of work of the
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Holy Spirit, that you're being sanctified, you know, conformed into the image of God.
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It's not like he gets to a certain point and goes, well, you know, I just can't do nothing with this one.
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He is just, you know, just a little sinner, you know, and I just can't get up.
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No, you know, the more and more we're being conformed into the image of God and we're, you know, we're,
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I mean, we have like a new nature and our new nature is to naturally pursue holiness.
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You know, to naturally do good works, you know, naturally.
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I mean, it's just that that's your new nature and this is the active role of the triune
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God in your life. Well, and look, and I didn't mean these analogies will only go so far, but I have a three -year -old son, right?
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Am I more, I'm trying to think of a good way to explain this. Am I happier with him?
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Do I recognize his obedience towards me when I have a prize at the end for him that he's doing it for or when he's doing it because he's listening to my voice?
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He's doing it because he's my son and he deserves, he owes the respect towards me to do it because he loves me, right?
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When we as a Christian have been imputed with the righteousness of Christ and our sins have been forgiven through the imputation of our sin into Christ and paid for there at the cross.
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It is only worship if it's done out of a sincere heart. It's not worship out of obligation.
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If you believe that you have to do X, Y and Z things to be saved. Well, first of all,
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Christ died needlessly. Second of all, that's not worship towards God. That's you maintaining your salvation.
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And that's the reason that you're doing it. If I have a cup of ice cream for my son and I say, son, if you do
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X, Y and Z things, you get the ice cream. He's doing it for that reason. However, if I say, son, go and do these things, and if he loves me and he's respectful and honoring to me, he will go and do those things without the reward at the end of them because he's my son.
36:05
And so I think that as a Christian that says, well, I can't lose my salvation.
36:11
I don't need to go to church. You don't have a sincerity in your heart to want to worship the God that saved you, supposedly.
36:18
And that, therefore, there's question to your salvation that you're proclaiming, right? And I think last week,
36:24
I really liked that quote that you said, Jeff, with fruit isn't an evidence for myself to be saved.
36:30
Fruit is the evidence for another Christian to recognize my salvation, right? My evidence of salvation is the empty tomb.
36:38
My evidence of salvation is to tell us Christ. Yes. But the other person will see my fruit, and that's a recognition of the sincerity of what
36:51
Christ has done and the sincerity of a Christian towards God in that way. If I'm living my life, looking to Jesus Christ, you know, watch out.
36:59
You might have a piece of fruit fall off of me, hit you in the head, right? But the moment, listen, the very moment
37:07
I stop looking at Christ, there's no fruit. Even if I look within, when
37:14
I look within, guess what I'm going to say? Oh, wretched man that I am. Who can rescue me from this body of sin?
37:22
Listen, that's what anyone, John Bunyan said that he had enough sin in his prayer to send the whole world to hell and God be just.
37:33
Listen, that's true of every one of us. When you look within, you know how wretched you are.
37:40
For all have sin. Don't say you are without sin. You make God out to be a liar.
37:46
Amen to that. Right. Especially Brayden. You just look at that. That's a fact. You know,
37:52
I could just see it. That's a fact.
37:57
That's why I don't look at myself perhaps. I don't look a mirror. I just look to Christ. All I see is sin. If you really stop and think about it, you know, it's like, what can
38:06
I add to the finished work of the cross? What could I add to the redemptive work of Christ where the
38:13
Father's going to look at me and go, you know? You know, He's going to just skate right on into heaven.
38:20
You know, instead of God's looking... Now, I know this would be little. But imagine if Habs walked up and, you know, like, let's just say
38:30
Brayden and Habs, y 'all went in together and y 'all bought me the John MacArthur commentary set.
38:36
I got you. You know, that's 500 bucks, right? And as you were giving it to me,
38:42
I reached into my pocket and pulled out two quarters and thumped one to each of you. I would straight up take that John MacArthur set from you and be like, you ain't getting it.
38:53
Right. I'm going to give Matthew, Mark and Luke and John to Habs. I'm taking the epistles. Peace out. It's like I'm trying to give you something small for something greater.
39:07
Now, imagine that when it comes to what God has done for us. Anything that we try to add is way, way, way less.
39:15
Like it's our greatest day. Our greatest work is nothing but a polluted garment to God.
39:22
It's like handing God a rag with leprosy, bleeding sores on it.
39:31
Right. It's nasty. Our greatest work. I, you know, I would even say that it's, man, there's a lot that I would want to say on that.
39:42
I'm just looking at something real fast. Philippians chapter three, verse seven says, but whatever things were gained to me, those things
39:51
I've counted as a loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things to be a loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing
39:58
Christ Jesus, my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things and count them but poop or rubbish or dung.
40:05
I like poop. In order, in order that I may gain Christ.
40:11
Like if you're saying you need to do X, Y, or Z things, you're saying that, like, seriously, think about this for a moment.
40:19
Did Christ live perfectly? Yes, he did. Did Christ live the life I can't live? Yes, he did.
40:25
When I say I need to do something, that's saying that Christ didn't do enough. That's like saying
40:30
Christ didn't live that perfect life, that he didn't live what I couldn't.
40:37
It's like being given the John MacArthur set, but instead you're taking a dump on it and saying here, thank you for it, right?
40:45
Like it's, it is. Thank you for the toilet paper. Yeah. Thank you for the toilet paper. Seriously. It's wow.
40:52
It's terrible. It's terrible. Anybody that denies the act of obedience of Christ, you are in a dangerous area right now and you need to repent over it.
41:02
It is not good. Yeah, so let's get into the different denominational aspects of it.
41:13
I think the first on the, we don't have to go in order, but I know, so whenever it comes to, because two of them are going to represent pietism, and that would be the
41:23
Armenian view of justification, sanctification. And the other one, the
41:31
Armenians and the churches of Christ, and then it's going to be different for the Lutheranism.
41:42
Yeah, I, now this is the part that, you know, I asked you earlier, you know, that I had some questions because, you know,
41:51
I love Lutherans, you know, I love those guys to death, you know, I love their liturgy and everything.
41:57
But what is their view, not only on justification, you know, but double importation?
42:06
And I mean, how do they, how do they view that? And church of Christ, those are the two ones I was really, really interested in learning about.
42:14
And I knew you had some insight on that. So I was just wondering, could you brief us on that?
42:20
Well, so as far as my understanding, when it comes to Lutheranism on imputation,
42:27
I do believe they see it more as the infusion instead of imputation.
42:32
Meaning that a righteousness comes in us and that this righteousness, it's kind of Catholicism in a way, that this righteousness develops from holiness.
42:51
But the main thing that I want to point out with Lutheranism is not so much to do with the imputation because they don't, like I said earlier, if you believe in the double imputation of Christ, you have to say that a believer cannot become an unbeliever.
43:11
And Lutheranism believes that you can lose your salvation because their system is sacramental.
43:22
Like if you want to know if you're a Christian in Lutheranism, well, were you baptized?
43:29
Yeah. You say, yeah, I was baptized. Well, then you're a Christian. Now, are you continually sitting under the word and sacrament?
43:39
Because if you are, you're a Christian. But whenever you stop living and sitting under the word and sacrament, then you lose your
43:55
Christianity. Go ahead. That's just like Catholicism.
44:00
You know, like they have the seven sacraments and then the order of salvation. Lutheranism is very, very capital
44:10
C Catholic almost. I mean, it's really, really close. It's very sacramental theology.
44:16
They look to their baptism and then they look to their obedience in the sacraments, being under the word preached and partaking in the
44:30
Lord's Supper. If you're doing these things, you are continuing in the faith. If you stop doing these things, you're not continuing in the faith.
44:39
That means you have lost your faith. Therefore, you're not a believer. All right.
44:45
So that's Lutheranism. All right. Now, would the reformed people say that Lutheranism is or not?
44:54
Lutherans are not Christians. No, absolutely. They wouldn't. All right. Now let's look at our meaning ism.
45:01
Well, you want to look at churches of Christ first. Yeah. So churches of Christ. Now, for the most part,
45:10
Christendom, as we know, would not recognize churches of Christ as Christians.
45:16
They would say that they're a cult because they believe in baptismal regeneration.
45:25
So does Lutheranism. So does Lutheranism. Can I say that again?
45:33
So does Lutheranism. They believe in baptismal regeneration. We reject the churches of Christ because they believe in baptismal regeneration.
45:42
Works righteousness. Now, one reason why I'd say it was a good reason is because the churches of Christ reject us.
45:51
They believe that they are the Lord's church. Now, I have a good, good friend at the church of Christ.
46:00
Listen, he's a Christian, and he considers me to be a Christian. I think he's a brother.
46:06
Now, around other people, we can't call each other brothers. All right. Well, around his people, we can't call each other brothers.
46:13
But we talk regularly. He's a good friend of mine. And we talk about this stuff.
46:18
When we first started talking, we had long conversations of our differences.
46:25
And we just come to love each other. Yeah. Right. And so they believe that you become a
46:32
Christian by being baptized. Okay, I want to get the words right.
46:38
By obeying the gospel. To obey the gospel is to be baptized. All right.
46:44
Now, if you live in sin. Yeah. But if you live in sin.
46:52
So kind of like what 1 John talks about walking in darkness. Walking in darkness is living in sin.
46:58
If you live in sin, you lose your salvation. In order to be resaved, you don't get rebaptized.
47:07
Which makes no sense. If salvation is through baptism, I lose it. I need to be resaved.
47:13
I need to be rebaptized, right? They say no. They point to Simon the Magician, I think it is.
47:21
The Magi, whatever. And that he was told only to repent. So in order to regain salvation, all you have to do is repent.
47:31
Again, this is stuff you have to do. It's not the work of Christ on your behalf. And they totally, 100 % deny the justification and righteousness being connected.
47:43
Now, my friend doesn't. But the churches of Christ as a whole does.
47:49
It's very, very pietistic. Now, Arminianism. Do any one of y 'all want to take a shot on Arminianism?
47:57
What do they believe about salvation? And how to keep yourself saved?
48:02
And what happens if you lose your salvation and stuff like that? I can try to take a stab at it.
48:09
And I wouldn't care if you guys stepped in at any point. So looking at Arminianism, which
48:15
I'll be clear when I say this. One is saved by looking at Jesus Christ and having faith in him.
48:21
Now, after you have been saved and as you study and you look at the word of God, your soteriology can fall into an
48:28
Arminianist view. And that does not negate what Christ has done for you. However, Arminianism, in my opinion, is very, very man -centered in trying to maintain an autonomous free will of man.
48:41
And therefore, they think that faith has to be generated firstly from man and then fall into looking at Christ.
48:52
And because of it, they maintain that autonomy of free will. Because it is you that is doing this.
48:59
It is you that is looking to Christ. It is you that's come unto this grace. It's you that's doing this in this sense.
49:06
You can forfeit that as soon as you stop doing that. And so while an
49:13
Arminianist would not say that baptism is required for salvation or that this or this or this is required and that's how you gain entrance to salvation, they do think that it is through your faith that you maintain.
49:30
So if you stop having faith at some point or you're starting to go through a bad season of your life and that faith starts to dip, there's questions of salvation.
49:41
And they would also look at their own fruit and work that they do. So that's really the concerning part.
49:48
And I think it falls into that whole idea of pietism and legalism. As a Reformed Baptist, we say that the work
49:55
Christ started is the work that Christ finished on our behalf. It's not me involved in it. It's Christ that has done it.
50:02
Whereas I think an Arminianist view would say, well, Christ finished that work, but we've really started looking at his faith, and we have to keep on continuing on in this faith in order to meet that end result.
50:15
And so it's really contrary, I think, first of all, to the Bible. And I think it's contrary to a
50:24
Reformed view, absolutely, right? Where a Reformed view is really magnifying God and what he has done.
50:30
An Arminianist is magnifying what man has done, looking to God. I hope that that's a fair way of saying that.
50:36
Yeah, yeah. Arminianism, you have to believe.
50:44
You, in and of yourself, have to believe. You, in and of yourself, have to repent. Churches of Christ, you have to obey the gospel and be baptized.
50:52
Lutheranism, you have to have faith and be baptized. Losing your salvation.
50:59
If you're walking in darkness, Arminianism and Churches of Christ are right here.
51:07
If you're walking in darkness, you lose your salvation. Arminianism, Churches of Christ.
51:13
If you're walking in darkness, you lose your salvation. Lutheranism, if you stop partaking in the sacraments, you have lost your faith.
51:24
Which, and I would even back up real fast on the whole Arminianist stuff too, because, and I do want to be clear in this, that I don't want to have it come across that I would say that Arminianist isn't
51:34
Christian, right? I'm saying that I think that their conclusions are wrong, right? But I think, I would still, brother,
51:41
I'm going to hold you by your shoulder. We're going to walk to the cross of Calvary together and worship God there, right? Yeah, yeah, of course.
51:47
Same thing. Yeah, I agree 100%. Yeah, yeah. I agree 100%. I just think that it's really man -based.
51:57
Yes. And especially when you go into like hyper -Arminianism, where everything's your choice, your choice, your choice.
52:03
Yeah. Like my status is on from Sunday to Saturday. I mean, that's free
52:10
Methodist right there. I mean, it's like anything goes, but I believe that when it's all my choice, my choice, and it's always this, again, going back to that pietism.
52:24
It's just like, you're looking at your accomplished works and you're maintaining.
52:31
And it almost reminds me, I remember when Braden was teaching me this about the
52:39
LDS Mormons. You do all that you can, then God gives you grace. Yep.
52:45
And that's what it really feels like. I mean, just like that, but that's just my two cents.
52:55
Yeah, so I want to move in right now to Doug Wilson.
53:00
Yeah. I'm going to read this quote. I'm going to read this quote out of context first.
53:09
All right, because this is how it was given. All right.
53:16
The means by which men apostatize from the covenant is unfaithfulness.
53:23
The means by which men preserve are the means.
53:29
Let me read that again. I'm sorry. The means by which men apostatize from the covenant is unfaithfulness.
53:35
The means by which men preserve in the covenant is faithfulness. Now, did he say anything that we're not already walking through with the
53:45
Lutherans, with the churches of Christ, and with the Armenians? Like, I think all three of those would agree with that quote.
53:54
Mm -hmm. But yet, my friends have deemed
53:59
Doug Wilson a heretic for that quote. Now, do
54:07
I agree? That quote taken out of context, I disagree with. Mm -hmm. I do not believe that a person, a
54:14
Christian, can apostatize and fall out of the covenant, nor do I believe that he maintains his position in the covenant through obedience.
54:25
Now, does the Christian obey? Well, yes. Mm -hmm. But when he disobeys, he's not driving off the edge of the road into a ditch.
54:35
He's not falling out of the covenant. Now I'm going to read the quote in context.
54:43
He's actually quoting from someone. I'm not going to say her name, but he says the name of the person.
54:50
He says, In other words, to assert that men fall away because their salvation was contingent upon continued faithfulness in the gospel is not to deny the sovereignty of God at all.
55:37
God, in his ordinary providence, makes use of means, yet is free to work without, above, and against them at his pleasure.
55:51
And so in that video that I sent earlier, he makes the statement that God has preordained a man to die.
56:02
Let's say tonight at 11 o 'clock at the corner at a gas station.
56:10
He's preordained a certain person to die at 11 o 'clock at a gas station. He's preordained it.
56:16
Someone walks up with a gun, shoots him in the head. One person actively made a choice to do something.
56:27
So this is what we call second causes. God had preordained him to die. And so God uses the second causes to fulfill his active ordination of what is to take place.
56:43
If men are to be saved by the gospel, the means by which they are saved is the gospel.
56:50
The second cause is me and you preaching. You see what I'm saying? And so now where this isn't clear by quoting is that this is a
57:03
Presbyterian problem. Because notice it says covenant, right?
57:09
And they have a different view of the covenant. They believe that you can be in the covenant and not a believer, not born again.
57:19
So when they have infants, they baptize their infants, they would see that their infants are in the covenant.
57:28
Right? And what this is saying is the means by which they preserve in the covenant is faithfulness.
57:38
They are actively believing, living for Christ. And the means by which they apostatize from the covenant is unfaithfulness.
57:46
Meaning that this kid who is in the covenant, right? Scare quotes because kids, infants are not in the covenant through baptism.
57:56
But they believe that they are. They grow up.
58:01
They show themselves not to be a Christian. They fall out of the covenant. What Doug said, what he is not saying is that someone who is born again, believes in Jesus, has been given faith to believe.
58:16
He's not saying that this person can apostatize. He's speaking of those who are members of the church and have been baptized into the covenant.
58:27
And to that I would say, listen, ladies and gentlemen, listen to me, Baptists. That is a Presbyterian problem.
58:33
That is not a Baptist problem. We need to stay in our lane. Yeah, exactly.
58:39
We need to stay in our lane. I agree, dude. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of like with the whole federal vision thing.
58:45
Federal vision is a Presbyterian problem. It is not a
58:50
Baptist problem. Yep. That does not in any way hinder what we believe and teach.
59:00
Now, it does in Presbyterianism, which I would say that it is consistent
59:06
Presbyterianism. Now, listen to this. Remember, I spoke a minute ago on sacramentalism dealing with Lutherans.
59:21
This view that everyone's condemning
59:26
Doug Wilson for, I just named it. For some reason, I forgot. Federal vision is actually really, really close to Lutheranism.
59:36
Is it? Really, really close. It's like Lutheranism and Presbyterians had a baby.
59:47
I'm serious. That's what it's like. Let me ask you this. All right. Go ahead.
59:54
You and I, we've been talking about this for the last two years or so.
01:00:00
I think that when it comes to theonomy, that's what that produces. It's really like going.
01:00:09
I believe theonomy only works in a
01:00:15
Presbyterian government. Governance. I think that theonomy that's mingled in there, it starts looking a lot like Roman Catholicism.
01:00:31
It's going towards that. Or it's going towards more of a legalistic.
01:00:40
I don't know. I see that happening with a lot of theonomists. Luckily, in Presbyterianism, there's a lot of happy inconsistencies.
01:00:52
For the most part, Presbyterians, although they believe their children to be in the covenant, they don't do paedo -communion.
01:01:00
To me, it seems more consistent. To me, it's like consistent Presbyterianism. Yeah. For the most part,
01:01:08
Presbyterians would deny theonomy. They would not deny general equity.
01:01:16
What they're denying is this Rush Dooney, Greg Bonson, somebody north, like Gary North, Christian constructionism, theonomy.
01:01:32
They're not denying God's law. If you believe that we are to love
01:01:41
God and love neighbor, that is a summation of the law of God. That is the transcendent law.
01:01:47
We are to love God and love neighbor. We are to keep that law. Okay, get this.
01:01:58
If a Christian tells you, well, we're not under the law, we're under grace, say to them, well, do we sin?
01:02:06
Because sin is breaking God's law. Breaking what law?
01:02:12
The transcendent law, the ten words, the ten commandments. Moral law. The moral law, right?
01:02:18
We are all under God's moral law. Okay, if you don't believe that,
01:02:24
I don't know what to say for you. What do you think is written on your heart? Yeah, yeah. If you're a believer, it's written on your mind and it's written in your heart.
01:02:34
Yeah. So we believe, if you're
01:02:39
Reformed, you believe in general equity. We do not have to say general equity theonomy. It's whenever you bring in the word theonomy is when you muddy the waters.
01:02:49
Because, like I mentioned last week, I think it was, when I say the word gay, do you think happy?
01:02:58
No, you don't. Because the water has been muddy when it comes to that word.
01:03:10
It actually means happy. But whenever I say, like if I was to say, hey, y 'all,
01:03:16
I'm really gay tonight, like that wouldn't make sense in our context, right? I'd be calling you up and be like,
01:03:22
Jess. Right, right. What you doing over there? If I start getting phone calls, is
01:03:28
Pastor Gay there? You're through. You're through. We're going to have a fight club when it comes time for our car.
01:03:37
Oh my gosh, dude. Yeah, there's no longer a debate between James and some other King James only.
01:03:43
It's going to be a fight with Haps and Jeff. Yeah, yeah. But you see what
01:03:50
I'm saying? Like when the name has been ruined, it's hard to get that name back. Yeah, yeah. Like, that's why, you know,
01:03:58
I would never say, hey, I'm really gay tonight. I would say, man, I'm really happy.
01:04:04
Because you understand what I mean when I say happy. Even though gay means happy, it's been turned into something else.
01:04:11
Same thing with theonomy. I think we have to stop giving things names like that.
01:04:20
Because it seems very cultish. It's just God's law. Yeah, it's just, if you're a
01:04:26
Christian, you're under God's law. Period. Period. Let's stop making controversy with all of it.
01:04:35
Yeah. But I think, no, I think that. Somebody just quoted you, Jeff. I can't speak up.
01:04:44
Oh, man. That's not right. Quote me in context. Yeah, no, don't ever quote
01:04:51
Jeff in context now. That's awful. That's funny. No, but again,
01:04:57
I really do think, I mean, what you're saying is absolutely right. When it comes down to us reformed
01:05:06
Baptists, we should stay in our lane. This is a Presbyterian thing. Let them deal with this.
01:05:12
Because if not, we're going to get to that name calling and being divisive.
01:05:18
And finding reasons why not to fellowship with our brothers. Because there's something wrong.
01:05:24
There's holes in their theology. Well, there's holes in our theology. Yeah, every one of them. Yeah, you know.
01:05:30
My main thing tonight with bringing in Lutheranism and all this other stuff is this. If we're not going to be willing to call
01:05:40
Lutherans heretics, then we better stop calling Doug Wilson a heretic.
01:05:46
Yeah. Yeah. All right. Do you agree with, you don't have to, I've said it earlier.
01:05:52
I don't agree with Doug Wilson on a lot of things. A whole lot of things. But I believe him to be a brother.
01:05:59
Oh, I'm into that. And a great brother too. Yeah. I mean, I think we need to be consistent.
01:06:08
If we're going to call one person out for a certain thing, we need to call everyone out for that certain thing.
01:06:16
Yeah. You know, sometimes. I think as long as it doesn't mess with the gospel, the
01:06:25
Holy Spirit, and Jesus Christ right there. You know, I mean, as long as if it's not met, because now you're going off into cults.
01:06:34
You know, you're going off into something cultish and stuff. But all these other things are just secondary to me.
01:06:42
You know, like I don't want to. But is baptismal regeneration secondary to you?
01:06:48
No, it's not. No, it's not. That's what Lutheranism holds to. Yeah. Yeah.
01:06:55
Yeah. Yeah. I know. To me, I don't know that much.
01:07:01
To me, a baptism, you know, baptizing kids is not, it's not a secondary issue.
01:07:07
Yeah. It's not blasphemy, but at the same time, that's not something that I can be a part of. Right. At the same time.
01:07:14
Well, when I say blasphemy, I'm not saying, and I think it's sin because I don't think it's following what God has set up for us.
01:07:20
It's theft. That's what I mean by that. Yeah. Do not steal. Let me, because this really hits home for me, right?
01:07:28
A context taken outside of its, a quote taken outside of its context is so, so destructive.
01:07:37
And you are absolutely right. When we, when we approach any person that's saying anything, whether you be a reformed
01:07:44
Baptist, a Lutheran, even, even an atheist, right? Like, even if I'm quoting an atheist,
01:07:50
I need to make sure I'm understanding it in its context and the mindset that he's saying these things in and the reason that he's saying these things and the dialogue of why it's being said.
01:08:01
Right. And so we can all have people sit and say,
01:08:06
Jeff said he's feeling really gay tonight. Look, Jeff is now. Right. Okay.
01:08:12
It's just going to be my, it's going to be my go -to example with the night. Right. But like that, that is terrible to do.
01:08:18
It's sin to do that kind of stuff. So as a reformed Baptist that hears like myself,
01:08:23
I said, if I said that exact same quote, in my view of the covenant that Doug just said, y 'all would have some problems with me.
01:08:31
Right. Because I'm saying that a person is maintaining their membership in the covenant, which you and my think that the covenant is salvation.
01:08:42
So we're going to have some issues with this. Right. But in the Presbyterian mindset, well, their baby that is unregenerate is a part of their covenant.
01:08:51
And and that is what they're talking about. And so, again, and it's I know, I know, I know in that in that thinking, you it's not while I think it's wrong.
01:09:03
I'm not saying it's outside of faith. It's not outside of orthodoxy to say something like that.
01:09:09
Right. Right. I want to and I like how you say this, if I want to kick him out of the kingdom for it.
01:09:15
Right. Like that's not that's not what we're doing tonight. That's we're just making it clear, like as a reformed
01:09:20
Baptist. And let me I'm just going to read real fast for us, because I think this this, again, is pretty, in my opinion, pretty clear.
01:09:26
Hebrews eight, verse eight through twelve. I think I read it last week. I'll start in verse six.
01:09:32
But now he has obtained a more excellent ministry by as much heat as he is also a mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
01:09:40
For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion saw for a second for finding fault with them.
01:09:47
He says, Behold, days are coming, says the Lord. When I affect a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which
01:09:53
I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, for they did not continue in my covenant.
01:10:01
So, first of all, the Presbyterians thinking that the new covenant is a covenant that you cannot continue in that you can get out of.
01:10:08
Essentially, the reformed Baptist is saying, no, if you're in the new covenant, you can't you're not getting out of it.
01:10:14
You want to get out of it. God is secure. You the new covenant is the gospel, essentially. Right.
01:10:19
And so in verse nine continuing, and I did not care for them, says the Lord. For this is the covenant that I make with the house of Israel.
01:10:27
After those days, says the Lord, I will put my laws into their minds and I will write it upon their heart. Again, we would say that that happens at regeneration and and I will be their
01:10:38
God and they shall be my people. So, again, this is not in the sense of a people of the
01:10:45
Old Testament that were unfaithful, didn't look to God, disobeyed him were punished often for it.
01:10:50
This is talking about in a way that we know God, which we'll say here in verse 11. And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizens and saying and everyone, his brother saying no, the
01:11:02
Lord, for they shall all know me from the least to the greatest of them. And so that's where the divergence of a
01:11:07
Presbyterian or reformed Baptist would be. Reformed Baptist is going to say, if you're a member of the new covenant, you've been born again.
01:11:14
You've been born from above and you know the Lord. And because you know the Lord, what does it say in here?
01:11:20
For I will be merciful to their iniquities. I will remember their sins no more. That's forgiveness. That is no more sins.
01:11:26
That's double imputation again. Right. That happens. Imputation of Christ's righteousness at regeneration.
01:11:34
And so, again, that's where we diverges as viewing of the covenant. Right. And that's why it's so important that when you hear
01:11:42
Doug say something, you have to be thinking about it in the mindset of a Presbyterian. Right.
01:11:47
Wrong or indifferent. Right. And that's that's the whole thing. We cannot, as Baptists, look at it and think
01:11:55
Baptist covenant theology. No, no. That's like looking at the Southern Baptist view of covenant theology.
01:12:03
There is not one. They in their systematic theology, they go through dispensational and covenant theology.
01:12:12
But it was. Well, what do you think of it? All they're trying to explain it. Yeah. Okay.
01:12:20
Interesting. Yeah. Keener. I'm not sure I hadn't read it.
01:12:30
Right. Well, anything else, gentlemen?
01:12:38
I really like Canon Press and Doug Wilson. I don't. I don't want to say nothing bad about Doug.
01:12:46
I don't want him to write a book about me or a column or something like that. You know, it's just I like it. Yeah. Yeah.
01:12:54
Again, like I'll state it again. I have my problems with Doug. Right.
01:13:00
But I and I've said this before. I have a spiritual gift that I can listen to people
01:13:07
I disagree with. And I can read something on Facebook that I disagree with without commenting.
01:13:15
I guess a lot of people can't do right. Like I can. I can watch something.
01:13:21
I can read something without having to give my two cents. You know, you know what?
01:13:29
And I learned from him. But there's a lot that I disagree with. I have my problems with them. I think he needs to be more clear on things.
01:13:36
I think that he needs to stop giving names to stuff. But, you know,
01:13:41
I mean, and to my congregation, I warn them, you know, read him, watch him with, you know, but be careful at the same time, because, you know, there's spots where it can be really confusing.
01:13:58
And so just something that a comment just said, and I do agree. This is part of sanctification.
01:14:04
Right. Like before we judge another person, which judging is
01:14:09
OK, good thing to do. Right. But we have to judge righteously. Right. And part of that is understanding why it's being said from that person.
01:14:19
Right. And so before you make a judgment, you better do your research on it first.
01:14:24
And I really do think like in like I said, that like I hate I don't like my quotes being taken out of context.
01:14:32
You better research my position first. See what I believe in. See where I'm talking about biblically.
01:14:38
Before you start saying, well, I'm going to I don't agree. Not even just I don't agree with your position, but I'm going to say that it's bluntly wrong and not right.
01:14:48
You know what I mean? You got to understand where a person is coming from before you make those judgments. And that is part of judging righteously.
01:14:56
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So the main thing tonight was that we wanted to show that there's there's people that that believe very, very different from us.
01:15:10
There's systems that believe very, very different from us that we disagree with that really look a whole lot like what
01:15:18
Doug Wilson is saying. Right. But we but be honest with you,
01:15:25
I think if Doug Wilson was to become a
01:15:30
Lutheran, everyone would stop hating them and start loving them. Because I want to say this tongue in cheek right now.
01:15:41
Luther has been the goat and cow of the Reformation. I like Luther.
01:15:51
All right. I love Luther. I like reading Luther. I like but but for some reason, people will not challenge
01:15:58
Lutheranism like they will other things. Yeah. Well, I feel the same way when it comes to, you know, the cares about church.
01:16:08
I think that if we we apply these things to cults and we we we hold it to the same standard.
01:16:16
If it's the different Jesus, a different gospel and, you know, a different spirit, you know, and we apply that same, you know, application towards cults.
01:16:30
That that goes for us, too. And I don't care what denomination we're in. If we mess with those three right there, we're off with that.
01:16:38
You know, not only is our theology off, but my God, that's you know, I think it's very, very serious.
01:16:45
But when I look at this, the other things like we we we tend to look at stuff like, oh,
01:16:51
Douglas Wilson is saying this is John Piper and all these other people. So, you know, these are faithful men of Jesus Christ that that hold to the same gospel.
01:17:01
You and I hold to the same Jesus Christ. We've been the need to and filled with the same Holy Spirit.
01:17:07
And they are there. They're sinners just like you and I. But when we when we go off in a different gospel, we tend to give the people that seem more spiritual this past every single time.
01:17:22
And then we go after. What do you do with final justification? Like what's his name?
01:17:30
John Piper teaches. Well, no, no, no. We're justified by grace through faith.
01:17:35
But then our works at the end is going to be our final justification. Getting right.
01:17:42
It's not right. I would have to be all that in context or listen to exactly what he was saying again.
01:17:48
You know, because I can't make a call on that, you know, at all. Just like with, you know, the research is out there in this book, you know, by Douglas, you know, the research is out there.
01:18:02
I mean, it's kind of the same thing when it comes to lordship salvation. So there's this controversy concerning lordship salvation that you have to make
01:18:09
Jesus Lord. Well, that is not. Yeah, that is not a. That is not a reformed fight like like that is not a battle that reformed people have to go through because the reformed believe that Jesus is
01:18:27
Lord. Even if you're an atheist, he is the Lord of your life. Yeah. You don't make
01:18:32
Jesus Lord. He is Lord. Yeah. So this is a dispensational, a war.
01:18:42
It's a war between dispensationalism. Right. The idea of easy believism and lordship salvation, which tends towards a.
01:18:56
You said it, pietism. And on the one hand, it's antinomianism.
01:19:02
Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, easy believism, antinomianism. There is no law.
01:19:10
You know, Jesus can be your savior, not your Lord. Like that's just not a battle for reformed theology, because we teach that Jesus is
01:19:18
Lord no matter what. You don't make him Lord. He is Lord. How can you make him something that he already is? Yeah.
01:19:24
Right. It's just the same thing that I'm talking about with the issue with Dougie Frisch.
01:19:30
That's a Presbyterian problem. The same way as the lordship salvation and easy believism is a dispensational problem.
01:19:39
This whole idea with Dougie Frisch and all this controversy with him, that is a Presbyterian problem.
01:19:45
That is not a Baptist problem. Baptists need to worry about Baptist problem. Trust me, we have our problems.
01:19:52
What are you talking about? Right now, we've got the doctrine of God going down. Divine simplicity.
01:20:02
I'm a 1689 Federalist. I have a
01:20:07
Federalist view of the covenant. There's also a 20th century view of the covenant. I think that we need to really hash this argument out.
01:20:16
But that's not a Presbyterian argument. Yeah. Because I was like, no, y 'all got the covenant all wrong anyways.
01:20:25
That's why y 'all are arguing is that you got the wrong view already. Yeah. Stay in your lane.
01:20:40
Anything else? Did we get that out? I think so.
01:20:46
I think so. I think our 20 is plenty. I think one thing that I would just say is that every denomination, every type of thinking that we've talked about tonight, if anyone dies and goes before Jesus and points and looks to their baptism, their keeping of a covenant, their this, this, this, and they're looking at their own fruit for salvation, you aren't going to be saved.
01:21:14
You have to look to Jesus Christ and his finished work on the cross and his act of obedience.
01:21:20
You have to look there. And if you're not looking there, regardless of, I mean, even, let's say somebody that's believing in final justification and that definition that you just gave,
01:21:33
Jeff, if they die and they go before Jesus and they say, look, my last five minutes before I lived,
01:21:38
I did this, this, this, I'm saved, Jesus. No, you're saved because you had
01:21:44
Jesus live the life. You can't live, died the death that you deserve. And he rose again on the third day. That's what you have to look to.
01:21:51
Right. He lived a life I could not live. He took the punishment I deserve. My faith is in him.
01:21:57
I've called upon his name. Yeah. And we're not above saying something wrong.
01:22:03
I can fall into that error just as easily as Jeff can.
01:22:08
I'm accidentally saying a quote that he's going to be quoted now for a long time. Well, every time
01:22:15
I go back and listen to my message, which I do this, I always catch something that I miss said are, are something that I could have said better.
01:22:25
Yeah. You know, I was talking with Hans. I think it was that there were with every sermon we grow in our understanding of preaching.
01:22:35
Yeah. Oh, there he is. Say hi.
01:22:42
Hi. Hi. Good night. Night. Love.
01:22:49
Okay. Love. I'm sorry.
01:22:59
You need to tell him good night. All right, brothers.
01:23:05
We'll end this and Brayden, will you be on next week?
01:23:12
I will not. So yeah, I won't be here next week. So I hope you two can get on and do something. Oh, I will. Oh yeah.
01:23:18
All right. We'll figure something out then. Well, any last words? I'm just going to say, you can't talk about divine simplicity without me being here.
01:23:27
Don't you think about doing that? We won't. We won't. Any last words,
01:23:32
Habs? Yes. Glorify God and enjoy him forever and ever and ever and ever and ever.