"The Audacity of Hope"

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line.

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

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Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

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This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the

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United States, it's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

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James White. When asked by the Barna Group what words or phrases best describe

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Christianity, the top response among Americans ages 16 to 29 was anti -homosexual.

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For a staggering 91 % of non -Christians, this was the first word that came to their mind when asked about the

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Christian faith. The same was true for 80 % of young churchgoers. The next most common negative image is judgmental, hypocritical, and too involved in politics.

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In the book that documents these findings, titled UnChristian, David Kinnaman writes, the gay issue has become the big one, the negative image most likely to be intertwined with Christianity's reputation.

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It is also dimensions that most clearly demonstrate the un -Christian faith to young people today, surfacing in a spate of negative perceptions, judgmental, bigoted, sheltered, right -wingers, hypocritical, insincere, and uncaring.

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Outsiders say Christian hostility toward gays has become virtually synonymous with the Christian faith.

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Later research, documented in Kinnaman's You Lost Me, reveals that one of the top reasons 59 % of young adults with a

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Christian background have left the church is because they perceive the church to be too exclusive, particularly regarding their

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LGBT friends. Eight million twenty -somethings have left the church, and this is one reason why.

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In my experience, all the anecdotal evidence backs up the research. By the way, I am reading something here.

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This is not me speaking. I hope you understand that. When I speak at Christian colleges,

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I often take time to chat with students in the cafeteria. When I ask them what issues are most important to them, they consistently report that they are frustrated by how the church has treated their gay and lesbian friends.

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Some of these students would say they most identify with what groups like the gay

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Christian network term Side A. They believe homosexual relationships have the same value as heterosexual relations in the sight of God.

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Others better identify with Side B. They believe only male -female relationship in marriage is God's intent for sexuality.

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But every single student I have spoken with believes that the church has mishandled its response to homosexuality.

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Most have close gay and lesbian friends. Most feel the church's response to homosexuality is partly responsible for high rates of depression and suicide among their gay and lesbian friends, particularly those who are gay and Christian.

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Most are highly suspicious of ex -gay ministries that encourage men and women with same -sex attractions to marry members of the opposite sex in spite of their feelings.

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Most feel the church is complicit, at least at some level, in anti -gay bullying. And most,

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I dare say all, have expressed to me passionate opposition to legislative action against gays and lesbians.

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When evangelicals turned their anti -gay sentiments into a political campaign one college senior on her way to graduate school told me, all it does is confirm to my gay friends that they will never be welcomed in the church.

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It makes them bitter and it makes me mad too. This is why I never refer to myself as an evangelical. Ugh, I'm embarrassed to be part of that group.

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I can relate. When Tennessee added an amendment to the state constitution banning same -sex marriage, even though it was already illegal in the state, members of my church at the time put signs in the yard declaring support for the initiative.

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From my perspective, the message that was sent to the entire community was simple, everyone but gays welcome.

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Dan and I left the church soon afterwards. Which brings me to North Carolina and Amendment 1. Despite the fact that the

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North Carolina law already holds that marriage in the eyes of state is only between a man and a woman, an amendment was put on the ballot to permanently ban same -sex marriage in the state constitution.

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The initiative doesn't appear to change anything on a practical level, though some are saying it may have unintended negative consequences on heterosexual relationships, but seems to serve primarily as an ideological statement, an expensive, destructive, impractical ideological statement.

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Conservatives in the state, who you would think would be more opposed to tampering with constitutions, supported the amendment and last night it passed.

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Religious leaders led the charge and supported the amendment, with 93 -year -old Billy Graham taking out multiple ads and publications across the state supporting the measure.

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As I watched my Facebook and Twitter feeds last night, the reaction among my friends fell into an imperfect but highly predictable pattern.

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Christians over 40 were celebrating, Christians under 30 were mourning. Reading through the comments, the same thought kept returning to my mind as occurred to me when

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I first saw the Billy Graham ad. You're losing us. I've said it a million times,

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I'll say it again, though I'm starting to think that no one is listening, then in very large, bold letters.

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My generation is tired of the culture wars. We are tired of fighting, tired of vain efforts to advance the kingdom through politics and power, tired of drawing lines in the sand, tired of being known for what we are against, not what we are for.

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And when it comes to homosexuality, we no longer think in the black and white categories of the generations before ours.

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We know too many wonderful people from the LGBT community to consider homosexuality a mere issue.

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These are people, and they are our friends. When they tell us that something hurts them, we listen, and Amendment 1 hurts like hell.

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Regardless of whether you identify most with Side A or Side B, or with one of the many variations within these two broad categories, it should be clear that amendments like these needlessly offend gays and lesbians, damage the reputation of Christians, and further alienate young adults, both

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Christians and non -Christian, from the Church. So my question for those evangelicals seeing the charge in the culture wars is this, is it worth it?

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Is political victory worth losing millions more young people to cynicism regarding the

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Church? Is a political victory worth further alienating people who identify as LGBT? Is a political victory worth perpetuating the idea that evangelical

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Christians are at war with gays and lesbians? And is a political victory worth drowning out that quiet but persistent internal voice that asks, what if we get this wrong?

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Too many Christian leaders seem to think the answer to that question is yes, and it's costing them. Because young Christians are ready for peace.

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We are ready to lay down our arms. We are ready to start washing feet instead of waging war.

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And if we cannot find that sort of peace within the Church, I fear we will look for it elsewhere.

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Those are the words found in an article, How to Win a Culture War and Lose a Generation, by Rachel Held Evans, author, speaker, and blogger.

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I think we need to consider well, in light of recent events and the fact that due to recent events, due to Dan Savage, due to Matthew Vines, due to Joe Biden and Barack Obama, this issue is absolutely in the forefront of the cultural discussion today.

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And it's absolutely in the forefront of the thoughts and the thinking of Christian people as well.

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And few things are illustrating more clearly how far from biblical standards of ethics morality and how twisted a worldview has now become the norm in what calls itself

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Christianity. We need to start recognizing that many people who answer a poll by saying, yes,

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I'm a Christian, that's not how you determine who a Christian is. That is not a meaningful number.

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When people tell me, oh, 60 -something percent of the American population identifies itself as Christian.

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I think any person who takes seriously what Scripture says has to immediately go,

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I sort of doubt that. That's really an exaggeration.

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I mean, if you're going to take seriously the parameters of what is and what is not Christian belief from within the

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Bible itself, there were a lot of people who had a false faith. There were a lot of people who followed a false gospel and a false

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Christ, even during the days of the apostles. So if you even include in the mix theological aberrations, aberrant groups, you start taking them out, and you're still left with a quote -unquote evangelicalism that includes churches like Joel Osteen's, where you have tens of thousands of people who will gather on a

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Sunday, and they're told nothing more than how good they are and how lucky

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God is to have them. They're not presented with the gospel. They're not presented with their sin. And they are not encouraged to create a

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Christian worldview. When you actually start looking at what portion of what calls itself

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Christianity in the United States today is actually challenging this very generation, the generation of the young woman that we were just reading,

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Rachel Held Evans, when you look at the percentage of the church that is actually saying to these young people, there is such a thing as a

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Christian worldview, and it is determined by the lordship of Jesus Christ. It is determined by the revelation of God in Scripture.

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It is not something that is determined by the parameters of postmodernism, and it is not determined by your feelings.

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It is a very small percentage, a very small percentage. And so we hear these words, and there's just so much in this crying out for correction from those who are more mature in the faith.

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These are the words of an immature person. Young people are immature.

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And I was raised to look to my elders as examples of maturity.

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Now, the next generation might not find their elders to be very mature, and my generation has to take responsibility for that.

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But that doesn't change the responsibility of the young generation today who call themselves

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Christians to stop taking their norms from the world and take their norms from Scripture.

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Take their norms from that which is unchanging, indeed, that which is eternal, the

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Word of God. And so let's listen again to what is said here, and let's comment about it.

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When the church exists within a culture that is under the judgment of God, how is the culture going to look at the church?

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Well, here's one of the main problems with our generation today, with the younger generation.

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We are completely disconnected from history. You're completely disconnected from history. I mean,

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Billy Graham is church history for most people today. He's old enough to be church history, but that's not church history.

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There have been many times when the Christian faith has been the object of the scorn and ridicule of the cultural elites.

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There's nothing new. The church survived it. And there's always been people who are part of the church who think that's somehow a bad thing.

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And it's like, have you read 1 Corinthians 1 and 2? Have you considered the fact that Scripture tells us, it warns us about the wisdom of the world?

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And it tells us that the gospel will always be moronos, foolishness to the wise of the world.

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We cannot change that, and we dare not change that, and we should not desire to change that.

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Young folks, the church does not grow by making it popular with people who remain in rebellion against God.

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You do not grow the church by filling it with people who think that they can tell

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Jesus what to do. That's not the kind of church

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Jesus wants. And so it should not be surprising to us that when we are in a particular culture that has become particularly enamored, enamored with its hatred of God's law and its hatred of ethics and morality based upon God's revelation, when that society becomes enamored with that kind of sinful behavior, they are going to express tremendous disrespect for the

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Christian faith. They are going to seek to marginalize and silence, and yes, even kill.

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I'd highly recommend that you take some time, look back at some of the good balanced books on the persecution of the

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Christian faith for the first 300 years of its existence, and you will find that the

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Christians were mocked and ridiculed for their beliefs. Nothing new today.

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Nothing new at all. So we have this paragraph.

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Later research documented in Kinneman's You Lost Me reveals that one of the top reasons 59 % of young adults with a

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Christian background have left the church. I stop right there. What's a Christian background? Their parents once maybe went to church a few times.

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That is not Christianity. And if one thing good is coming out of this, we are being able to see what is

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Christianity and what isn't. Cultural Christianity is a stench in the nostrils of a holy

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God and it is an insult to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. And the sooner we're rid of it, the better.

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Cultural Christianity, where the Lordship of Jesus Christ means nothing to your life, it means nothing to the way you think, nothing the way you speak, nothing the way you dress.

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It has no impact upon your life where you just slather a little religion on once in a while.

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That is not Christianity. And if we're getting to the point where people are getting that idea and they're walking away from that kind of cultural

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Christianity, that's a good thing. Because now I can talk to them and introduce them to real Christianity, the

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Christianity that Jesus taught us about when he said, take up your cross and deny yourself and follow me.

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And that might mean in our culture, living in such a way and believing certain things that you may not find comfortable.

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But Christianity is not about your comfort or mine. Later research documented

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Akinneman's Eulastomy reveals that one of the top reasons 59 % of young adults with a Christian background have left the church is because they perceive the church to be too exclusive, particularly regarding their

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LGBT friends. Young people, listen to me.

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Sin is all around us. It's in your heart and it's in mine. Every friend

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I have is a sinner. And every person I'm a friend to has in me a friend who is a sinner.

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But there is a line. There is a line that can be crossed.

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Most men that I know struggle with unclean sexual thoughts.

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If it were not so, there would not be tens of thousands.

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I don't know. I haven't looked up the numbers, but tens of thousands of pornography sites on the internet.

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So pretty much every man I know, every man I know has unclean sexual thoughts toward women.

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So that means every man I know, even those who are my close friends are sinners. So I understand the idea of having

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LGBT friends, whatever. I hate that terminology. But you see, there's a line.

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Because if one of those friends decided that those thoughts and desires were actually good, they were actually acceptable, and they actually started to attach to the name

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Christian in a positive way, their thoughts and resultant actions based upon those thoughts, that's where you cross the line.

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When you have people saying, I am an adulterous Christian, and that's how

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God made me, and I will celebrate my adulterousness.

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I am an angry Christian. I am a Christian with a temper. But God made me that way, and so I will celebrate my anger.

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I am a person who wants intergenerational love.

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And so I'm going to start a movement for intergenerational Christianity. That's called pedophilia.

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I have desires for animals. So I'm going to start animal love

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Christianity. You see, there's a line. And when you cross that line, you no longer should, with any semblance of honesty, even want to use the word

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Christian. Because we know what

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Jesus taught. Now, we know there are people, like Matthew Vine, who are trying to redefine that based upon works like John Boswell's work, who himself was a homosexual who died of AIDS, and yet he used his historical scholarship to rewrite history and to come up with these excuses, try to get around the clear, the perspicuous, the unquestionable teaching of the

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Bible on these subjects. But the

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Bible, for the person who bows in the name of Jesus Christ, if you want to call yourself a

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Christian, then shouldn't you view Scripture the same way Jesus did, or are you wiser than he was?

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Why call yourself a Christian if you think you actually know more than Jesus did? There is, on the part of many, the generation before me, my generation, the generation after me, there is, on the part of many modern people, a tremendous hubris toward the writers of Scripture as if they were simpletons, as if ancient man just had the

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IQ of a wet shoelace. And I just want to ask you, why would you follow a man who was not as smart as you?

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Oh, well, he never had an iPad or an iPhone. That makes you smarter?

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Jesus' view of Scripture was that this is what God says to you.

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In fact, in Matthew chapter 22, he quoted the Old Testament in such a way as if he held the men he was talking to in his day responsible for what

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God said to Moses about 1 ,400 years earlier as if God had spoken to them directly.

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That's how high a view of Scripture he had. And I just want to ask all these young people who find the simple identification of homosexuality as a sin and think that the church should just abandon

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Jesus' teaching that marriage is one man and one woman, that adultery is any sexual activity outside of that beautiful relationship that God has ordained.

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We should just forget all that. Come on. It's old. It's, you know, look at the polls.

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Barna tells us to, you know. I just want to ask you, if you call yourself a

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Christian and you say Jesus is going to save you from your sins, why don't you hold his view of Scripture? You trust him to save you from your sins, but you don't trust him to teach you the truth about human sexuality and marriage, which he himself ordained because he is

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God in human flesh and God was the one who ordained marriage, says 8 ,000 ,020 -somethings have left the church and this is one reason why.

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Well, I don't know what church they left, but you know what?

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When kids grow up, even in a Christian family, there comes a point in time when they become adults, and they have to make decisions on their own.

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And the best I can do as a Christian parent is to teach them, to give them a foundation.

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I cannot change their hearts. In the church where I'm an elder,

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I can think of families, and I can think of the fact that for many years

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I taught those young people, especially on Wednesday nights, and some of those young people today are some of the most encouraging, godly, wonderful young people, a true testimony to God's grace.

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But some aren't there anymore. Yeah, even in a church that would be identified as mature, sound, the

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Word of God being preached with regularity and depth, and there are people who sit there and once they're out from underneath the control of mom and dad, they want nothing to do with it, because it's

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God that changes hearts. And so even in solid, sound

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Christian churches, 20 -somethings very often leave. And they often come back as 30 -somethings, their lives now battered and scarred, but now realizing that they need a foundation.

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But sometimes they don't ever return at all. But I don't think that what's being referred to here actually has anything to do with sound, solid churches.

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There are a lot of churches in this land that are anything but biblical in their orientation or their foundation or their practice or their worship or their teaching.

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And there are so many churches that have thrown the door wide open to the world and said, just come on in, we won't preach to you about repentance.

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We won't preach to you about the Lordship of Christ. We won't tell you that God has revealed his truth and that it's important for you as his creature to walk in light of his truth and to bow to his

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Lordship. We won't tell you those things because we don't want to offend you. The result is you get to be a 20 -something.

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And why should I stay in a church like that? I want to believe in something. I want something that's going to mean something in my life.

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I'm tired of people smiling at me and talking about how I can be my best me. You know how to be your best you, you just don't want to do it.

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And so when churches like that spew out unbelievers, that's not surprising.

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That's not surprising for a minute. Doesn't surprise me anyways.

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We're told by Rachel that every single student she's spoken with believes the church has mishandled its response to homosexuality.

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Well, what church? There hasn't been. That's one of the sad things.

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There hasn't been a singular response. Are you saying that it should be the affirming churches that just simply throw

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God's moral law under the bus? Just forget about what the Word says. Don't worry about what the

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Bible says. We'll go ahead and abandon everything we've ever believed just so as to not offend you.

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Why do LGBT people have the world's largest chip upon their shoulder?

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What about offending Christians? What about offending me? Why do I not get counted in this?

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I'm deeply offended at the blasphemy of marriage and Jesus's own teaching on these issues that is part and parcel of what is thrown in my face every day by the mainstream media.

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I'm deeply offended by the Dan Savages of the world. No one seems to care about that, do they?

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You say that most have close gay and lesbian friends.

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Well, once again, are they gay and lesbian and they recognize that it's wrong and they want help to change?

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Or have they given up that fight? They've embraced this. The best studies say that no more than three to at most four percent of the population.

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Numbers are probably lower than that. We're going with the biggest numbers here. Three to four percent would be homosexual.

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Three to four percent. So that's not a huge proportion of the population, is it?

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You say, but I've got close friends. They're wonderful people. How do you determine who a wonderful people is?

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Well, they're very loving. What does loving mean? Is it loving to discipline your children and to train them up in godliness?

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I think it is. Our society is starting to say no. Is it loving to tell the homosexual about the destruction of their personal lives and their bodies that will be part and parcel of such a lifestyle?

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According to SB 1172 in the

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Senate of the state of California, they are actually suggesting a bill that would prohibit psychotherapists as defined from performing sexual orientation change efforts.

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In other words, you will not be allowed to tell a gay person, you know what?

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One of the ways out of this is you might want to stop being gay. Oh, no, you can't say that.

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Hasn't passed yet, but it's being considered. Is that loving? Well, obviously pretty soon by government, it'll probably be illegal.

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But from a Christian perspective, is it loving to warn a person?

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To say God has said this behavior is reprehensible in his sight and it will destroy you?

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Now, of course, the real issue should be that it's reprehensible in God's sight. But for so many in our society, even those who call themselves

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Christians, we are the most important thing. God's law,

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God's will, God's purpose, we'll let God take care of that. Doesn't really matter.

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We're told that most feel the church's response to homosexuality is partly responsible for high rates of depression and suicide among their gay and lesbian friends, particularly those who are gay and Christian.

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Now that, right there, demonstrates such a horrible flaw of thought.

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So the law is responsible for the high rates of depression in prison, right? I mean, there's a lot of people, there's a lot of murderers who commit suicide.

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How many times do you have murder -suicides? And if we would just stop prosecuting for murder, they wouldn't commit suicide.

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It would just be so much better for them. And pedophiles, oh my goodness, pedophiles have very high rates of depression and they don't view themselves well.

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It's just the law's fault. We just need to be more accepting. And people engage in bestiality and incest and polygamy.

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They all have issues and it's just because we just shouldn't say anything's wrong, right?

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This is the muddled thinking that comes from making people's emotions the ultimate good to which law must conform.

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And the only result is anarchy. Absolute anarchy. Most feel that the church is complicit at least some level in anti -gay bullying.

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Really? I'm reminded of the reporter at who asked

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Kirk Cameron. Don't you think making comments like this might engender hatred toward gay people?

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And if I had been in Kirk's shoes, my response would have been, don't you think asking me that question might engender hatred toward me?

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Human beings have minds and souls and are responsible for their behavior.

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And if merely hearing someone disagreeing with someone else's sexual behavior is enough to cause bullying, then

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I guess human beings cannot be held responsible for their actions. We're back to anarchy again.

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If you hear someone saying that behavior will lessen your life, it could kill you.

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How dare you say that? Someone might beat them up for that. Oh, I was talking about smoking. Oh, well, that's okay.

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Oh, you mean hearing someone saying smoking is bad for you? That won't cause anti -smoking bullying.

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Why is there double standards here? Because it's all part of an agenda that many young Christians have absolutely bought, hook, line, and sinker.

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I'm going to skip down to this because I have a lot more to get to. We need to talk about Barack Obama's book and we need to listen to the great wisdom of Chris Matthews.

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Yes, I bet you LaShawn's going to love it when I get to Chris Matthews because I'm sure Chris Matthews is one of LaShawn's favorite people in the media.

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But this is what worries me the most here. I've said it a million times.

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I'll say it again, though. I'm starting to think no one is listening. My generation is tired of the culture wars.

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Well, Rachel, I'm tired of fighting too.

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I'm more tired than most people are because I have to fight all the time because of what the

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Lord has called me to do. I'm constantly involved in this type of thing. But you know what?

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If you're fighting the culture wars, given the worldview you have expressed in your article,

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I fully understand. I fully understand because you're fighting about preferences.

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You're fighting about, well, you know, I prefer to view it this way. I prefer to view it that way.

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The reason that Christians keep fighting the culture wars is not about the culture.

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It's about honoring God. It's about honoring

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God. We have been called, Rachel, to be salt and light.

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Salt in a dying world. Light in a dark world. And I don't remember

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Jesus adding anything in there about, be salt up until this point, then give up.

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Lay down your weapons. Forget about it. Take it easy.

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Go with the flow. And I don't remember him ever doing anything or saying anything about, well, once it gets to this level of darkness.

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Then, you know, you can, you can, you don't have to worry about that point. It's getting dark, but we're called to be lights.

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My generation is tired of the culture wars. The more you love

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God's truth, the more you'll be willing to sacrifice for his truth.

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The more you love God's truth, the more you will be willing to sacrifice for his truth.

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Rachel, I'm sorry. If no one in your past has said to you as a young person, you know what?

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The greatest calling you could ever have in this life is to lose your life in the service of Jesus Christ.

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And that means proclaiming his gospel. That does not mean editing his gospel.

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We are tired of fighting, tired of vain efforts to advance the kingdom through politics and power. Rachel, speaking the truth in love about the destruction of homosexual behavior is not politics and power.

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I know politics and power can't change a heart, but we must draw lines in the sand.

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We must say what we are against. And it's our culture that has refused to allow us to speak about what we're for.

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Rachel, you must understand the vast majority of us who have been speaking on this issue for years, years even before you were born, have always emphasized, always emphasized the positive.

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When I speak on this subject, I almost always start with Matthew 19 and I let

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Jesus define his own teaching that from the beginning,

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God made them male and female. And it's male and female that become one flesh.

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It's male and female that God joins together. It's male and female that creates the beauty of life.

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We are for that. You must realize, Rachel, you have been duped by the media.

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You have been duped by this culture to hear only the one side and to adopt their very language, which is designed, absolutely designed to preclude any meaningful debate on the subject.

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When it comes to homosexuality, we no longer think in the black and white categories of the generations before ours.

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Why, Rachel? Why? Was it because the generations before yours, we were just benighted?

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We just hadn't thought it through. We didn't know enough gay people to have gotten the message. Is it possible,

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Rachel, that there is a level of wisdom that one gains having been a parent and then seeing the next generation coming along?

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And maybe the next generation after that, that gives us insights and wisdom that maybe at your young age, you might want to look forward and see what we have seen, or to ask us to explain.

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Could it be that the black and white categories, I realize for some people who call themselves Christians, it's just pure bias.

41:32

It's just a simplistic knee -jerk reaction. I understand that, but that is not what we're talking about here.

41:41

For those of us who passionately warn everyone about the life -destroying behavior of homosexuality, do you think maybe there might be something more to it?

41:56

You say we know too many wonderful people from the LGBT community. What is the LGBT community,

42:03

Rachel? Have you thought about how improper it is that there is a community defined by deviant sexual behavior?

42:17

Is it right, Rachel, that there is a pedophile community? Is it right,

42:23

Rachel, that there is an incest community? A bestiality community?

42:30

A murdering community? A thieving community? An angry community? Can you have any healthiness in a, quote, community that is defined by deviant sexual behavior?

42:43

I don't think so. You say they're your friends, but once again, what's your ultimate priority?

43:01

What is your ultimate priority? Who do you want to please in your friendships and your actions?

43:11

It should break our heart that we should ever be in a situation where we have to withdraw our friendship from someone, but if you've never been in that position, you ain't much of a friend to anyone.

43:31

Do you hear me? If you have never withdrawn your friendship, that means your friendship doesn't say anything.

43:41

If you're willing to be a friend to anybody, then what does your friendship mean?

43:50

There needs to be some kind of common basis for a true friendship to exist and to develop.

43:57

It's one thing to be nice to folks. It's one thing you work in retail. You have to be nice to people and courteous and things like that, but hopefully everybody understands the difference between being courteous to someone and a real friendship.

44:10

In a friendship, you have to share a worldview. In a friendship, there has to be honesty and openness and part of being honest and open as a

44:23

Christian is to tell people the truth, especially about what

44:28

God's law says. And Rachel, I've got to ask you a question. Do you love God's law?

44:36

Does reading the 119th Psalm seem really weird to you? I ask this of everybody.

44:42

I don't care. Everybody in my chat channel, everybody's listening. You can be listening. When you read the 119th

44:48

Psalm, does it seem weird to you? It seems a little over the top, you know.

44:55

My eyes shed tears about those who disrespect your law and break your law.

45:03

Really? It seems a little over the top, doesn't it? I really have to wonder about people who establish a higher priority in not offending a friend than in not offending

45:26

God. I really think

45:32

Christians need to examine their hearts for antinomianism because Paul said we establish the law by faith.

45:45

We don't get rid of the law. And it was the holiness of God's law that nailed Jesus to a cross.

45:54

And it's that very law that is being spat upon and stomped upon and hated in our culture today in the promotion of homosexuality and the profanation of marriage.

46:08

Both of which were established by God. And if that does not touch your heart, then

46:17

I'm not sure your heart is touchable. The article concludes saying, because young Christians are ready for peace.

46:27

Peace with whom, Rachel? Peace with whom? Peace with your

46:33

LGBT friends? Peace with people who remain in rebellion against God? They can't have peace with God, Rachel.

46:41

How can you have peace? How can you have peace in your heart knowing they don't have peace with God? Because they will not submit to his law.

46:50

They will not confess their sin. Unrepentant sinners do not receive eternal life.

47:01

It should break your heart and it should nerve your arm. It should strengthen you to continue the battle.

47:13

Young Christians are ready for peace. We are ready to lay down our arms. And then you have this line.

47:21

We are ready to start washing feet instead of waging war. Rachel, Jesus washed the feet of his disciples.

47:35

He washed the feet of those who had submitted to him as Lord.

47:43

He washed their feet because they had been cleansed by their faith.

47:49

And hence they only needed to have their feet washed. You cannot,

47:57

Rachel. You cannot wash the feet of rebels. They are not ready to have their feet washed.

48:08

They need to have their souls cleansed first. You've got your priorities backwards.

48:19

You write, if we cannot find that sort of peace in the church, I fear we will look for it elsewhere. Rachel, you're looking for the wrong kind of peace.

48:29

The peace you look for first is the peace between your own soul and God that comes only through a relationship with Jesus Christ.

48:37

And that relationship is based upon the recognition that in his death, burial, and resurrection, the very law of God was proven to be holy and just.

48:51

So holy and so just that God the Father considered it proper to send the

48:57

Son to die in our place so that it would not just be swept under the rug, but it would be honored as the representation of his holiness that it truly is.

49:11

And you want peace by compromising that?

49:20

You want peace without honoring the cross? It cannot be.

49:29

It cannot be. Now, it's not just Rachel that I need to provide a word of hopeful instruction to, but I was directed to an article at townhall .com

49:49

by Hugh Hewitt. Now, I like listening to Hugh Hewitt. He's on here locally, and Hugh Hewitt's a blast to listen to when it comes to especially legal stuff.

50:00

I mean, talking about Supreme Court and guys is brilliant. It's very, very interesting.

50:07

Hugh's a liberal Christian. Well, sort of midstream, not really liberal, but his denomination isn't exactly right wing.

50:17

And as a result, there are times that Hugh says things I just go, oh. I know he's been an elder in a

50:23

Presbyterian church. I think it's a PCUSA church. But there are still some conservative PCUSA guys around there.

50:29

Robert Gagnon is the French pronunciation. He says Gagnon because he lives in the

50:34

United States. But Robert Gagnon is, I think, in a PCUSA situation as well, as odd as that is.

50:40

But anyways, we'll be talking more about him, his excellent work on homosexuality.

50:48

But in May 10th, just a few days ago,

50:55

Obama, talking about Obama, Hugh Hewitt said,

51:03

They believe, as I do, that marriage between a man and woman is ordained by God for the happiness of humankind and the building up of society, and that it is to be preferred to any other situation for the raising of children.

51:16

Now, again, it is to be preferred? I don't find that language to be quite strong enough, but it's problematic in light of the next two sentences.

51:32

This is not to say that single parents or same -sex couples cannot be terrific parents. They can be, often far better at it than married couples who are terrible, horrible parents, and from whose care children must be removed.

51:53

If all he means by that is that there are parents who are abusive, and I'm talking male and female, married, they have children, and then they absolutely demonstrate that they are selfish.

52:15

See, becoming a parent is the single best

52:20

God -ordained way of ripping selfishness out of a human being that has ever been devised.

52:31

Marriage helps, but married people can still be very, very selfish. But when you have that little, tiny, screaming, dependent human being come into your life, who is itself the very definition of selfishness, the whole world revolves around that little child.

52:59

That begins the process of ripping it out of you. And there are people who just refuse to grow up.

53:14

And so there are heterosexual parents who are jerks, no question about it. But I would not say for an instant that a quote -unquote same -sex couple can be terrific parents.

53:33

I don't believe it for a second, and let me tell you why. I'm not saying they can't change diapers, and I'm not saying they can't cook food, and I'm not saying they can't provide a roof over their head, and that they may not be very devoted.

53:50

But a same -sex union is, by nature, a selfish union.

54:02

Homosexuality is the essence of selfishness. Not only are you loving a mirror image, which is sexual narcissism, but you are refusing to do what is right.

54:20

You have given in to the desires to do what is wrong, to satiate yourself.

54:26

And now you are involving a child, which you cannot produce yourself.

54:32

You have to get it from somebody else. You have to bring in a man's sperm, or however else you do it.

54:38

Adoption, however. You bring in someone else has produced this life. You bring this life in to fulfill, normally, your own felt needs for a quote -unquote family.

54:49

And in the process, you deny that child of the very examples that God -ordained marriage would provide.

55:05

And that is the very essence of selfishness. The very essence of selfishness.

55:12

So to say they can be terrific parents when, on purpose, they are depriving their child of the necessary example of a father or a mother, and the interaction of father and mother.

55:25

I don't care if it's two men or two women. It doesn't matter. They will never get to see how a true man honors his wife, and how a true wife honors her husband.

55:44

They'll never get to see it. They have been deprived of that. That's one of the terrible things during war.

55:52

A society would come together, and when the father had gone off to war, and he's killed in battle, the community would come together to help support that child, because they knew the importance of having that relationship.

56:08

And it had now been taken away. And everyone realized the tragedy, the necessary tragedy, we actually believe there was a time when it was still a good thing to give yourself self -sacrificially for your nation and for your people and for what's right, because your nation stood for righteousness and justice.

56:28

We can't hardly even imagine that anymore. Can't hardly even imagine that anymore.

56:43

But I thoroughly disagree that when you have two people who purposefully determine to rob a child of that example because of their own selfishness, don't call them parents, and don't call that a family.

57:00

I refuse to do so. That may cost me in the future, because this society is intent upon absolutely overthrowing the very cultural norms that they derive from the

57:13

Judeo -Christian tradition and that were a part and parcel of the foundation of this nation. And we now hate it.

57:20

We now absolutely hate it. I was going to take a break, but I'm not going to, because I've still got things to do.

57:31

Before we get to Chris Matthews, let me...

57:38

Actually, could we do that? Because I've got Obama, and I think I've got time in the last half hour. We're going for a jumbo today, so we've got still a half hour to go.

57:49

I'm sorry? No, no, no, no. We're going to go for another half hour. I've been preaching too much already.

57:55

So we're going to take a break. We'll come back. I want to look at the audacity of eisegesis.

58:01

I'm sorry, the audacity of hope. And then we're going to beat our heads against the wall listening to Chris Matthews.

58:09

But we'll be right back. Under the guise of tolerance, modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality.

58:50

Even more disturbing, some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior.

58:56

In their book, The Same -Sex Controversy, James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the

59:02

Bible's teaching on the subject, explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality, including

59:09

Genesis, Leviticus, and Romans. Expanding on these scriptures, they refute the revisionist arguments, including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law.

59:20

In a straightforward and loving manner, they appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for his people.

59:29

The Same -Sex Controversy, defending and clarifying the Bible's message about homosexuality. Get your copy in the bookstore at almen .org.

59:38

What is Dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book Chosen But Free? A New Cult?

59:43

Secularism? False Prophecy Scenarios? No, Dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called

59:50

Calvinism. He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent, philosophically insufficient, and morally repugnant.

59:58

In his book The Potter's Freedom, James White replies to Dr. Geisler, but The Potter's Freedom is much more than just a reply.

01:00:05

It is a defense of the very principles upon which the Protestant Reformation was founded. Indeed, it is a defense of the very gospel itself.

01:00:13

In a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate, James White masterfully counters the evidence against so -called extreme

01:00:20

Calvinism, defines what the Reformed faith actually is, and concludes that the gospel preached by the

01:00:25

Reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture. The Potter's Freedom, a defense of the

01:00:30

Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's Chosen But Free. You'll find it in the Reformed Theology section of our bookstore at almen .org.

01:00:39

Pulpit Crimes The criminal mishandling of God's Word may be James White's most provocative book yet.

01:00:45

White sets out to examine numerous crimes being committed in pulpits throughout our land every week. as he seeks to leave no stone unturned.

01:00:53

Based firmly upon the bedrock of Scripture, one crime after another is laid bare for all to see. The pulpit is to be a place where God speaks from His Word.

01:01:02

What has happened to this sacred duty in our day? The charges are as follows. Prostitution using the gospel for financial gain, pandering to pluralism, cowardice under fire, felonious eisegesis, entertainment without a license, and cross -dressing, ignoring

01:01:19

God's ordinance regarding the roles of men and women. Is a pulpit crime occurring in your town? Get Pulpit Crimes in the bookstore at almen .org.

01:01:45

And welcome back to The Dividing Line. We have half an hour left in the program today. I was directed to a book

01:01:55

I did not have in my library for some odd strange reason, but I now have it on my

01:02:01

Kindle. My Kindle may never be the same, but I now have it on my Kindle. And that was

01:02:08

The Audacity of Hope, Thoughts on Reclaiming the American Dream by then -Senator

01:02:15

Barack Hussein Obama. And I think it was

01:02:21

Steve Camp that tweeted something about somebody mentioning this on a

01:02:26

TV program or something. I don't know. But in the

01:02:32

Kindle edition of the book, this says page 347 of 550 in the

01:02:44

Kindle edition. That's not the same as the printed edition. I can guarantee you that. We read the following.

01:02:51

For many practicing Christians, the same inability to compromise may apply to gay marriage. I find such a position troublesome, particularly in a society in which

01:02:59

Christian men and women have been known to engage in adultery or other violations of their faith without civil penalty.

01:03:07

I guess I have to stop here. I was just going to read it as a context. But what muddled thinking?

01:03:19

So if Christian men and women engage in adultery, then that means it's okay to change the definition of marriage so that two men can get married or two women can get married.

01:03:34

And, of course, we all know that that's going to lead to polygamy by logical necessity. And then eventually just the utter destruction of any barriers as to what any two people, age, sex, any two things.

01:03:52

It doesn't matter. Anything could be quote -unquote married. How does that follow? I don't even begin to understand.

01:03:58

Anyways, all too often I have sat in a church and heard a pastor use gay bashing as a cheap parlor trick. It was

01:04:04

Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. Why is that gay bashing? So in other words, any disagreement is bashing.

01:04:12

Well, I've heard this before. That's exactly how the Mormon missionaries do it. You disagree with Mormonism, you're

01:04:18

Mormon bashing. Of course, if they quote the First Vision, they're not Christian bashing, but anyway.

01:04:26

He will shout, usually when the sermon is not going so well, I believe that American society can choose to carve out a special place for the union of a man and a woman as the unit of child -rearing most common to every culture.

01:04:39

I have a hint here for the now President of the United States. That's the only way you get kids.

01:04:45

I mean, you might want to do the test -tube baby thing, but the only way you get kids is a man and a woman.

01:04:55

That's just basic biology 101. I am not willing to have the state deny

01:05:01

American citizens a civil union that confers equivalent rights on such basic matters as hospital visitation or health insurance coverage simply because the people they love are of the same sex.

01:05:13

And then here's the line. Nor am I willing to accept a reading of the

01:05:19

Bible that considers an obscure line in Romans to be more defining of Christianity than the sermon on the mount.

01:05:29

End quote. Let me read it again. This is the sitting President of the United States of America.

01:05:36

Nor am I willing to accept a reading of the Bible that considers an obscure line in Romans to be more defining of Christianity than the sermon on the mount.

01:05:52

End quote. Once again, this says page 348 of 550 in my

01:05:58

Kindle for Mac reader, where that is in the printed edition.

01:06:05

Unfortunately, I don't have a clue. Nor am I willing to accept a reading of the

01:06:10

Bible that considers an obscure line in Romans to be more defining of Christianity than the sermon on the mount.

01:06:18

A. Where does the sermon on the mount in any meaningful contextual reading overthrow the biblical teaching of God's law on marriage?

01:06:37

A. Where does the sermon on the mount in any way, shape, or form even address homosexuality?

01:06:44

Doesn't the sermon on the mount talk about God's law? Doesn't the sermon on the mount honor

01:06:51

God's law? In fact, doesn't the sermon on the mount even make

01:06:56

God's law more stringently applied to the heart than the Jews of that day had been willing to do?

01:07:07

So, how does the sermon on the mount define Christianity in such a way as to allow for the overthrow of Matthew chapter 19 and Jesus' own teaching that marriage is between one man and one woman and that's what the family unit is, period.

01:07:21

End of biblical and Christian discussion based on lordship of Christ. That's it.

01:07:27

You bow to lordship of Christ, you accept what he says about this, there isn't anything more to argue about. So, sermon on the mount, nice way of trying to get around it, but then we have the line, the obscure line in Romans, which

01:07:43

I can only assume is in reference to Romans chapter 1.

01:07:51

I can't imagine what else is being referred to, where else,

01:07:57

I mean, it doesn't say an obscure line in 1 Corinthians 6, it doesn't say an obscure line in 1

01:08:03

Timothy, so it must be the big one in Romans chapter 1, which, interestingly enough, is where we are in our response to an examination of Matthew Vine's presentation as well, and I was going to put those together, but we will return to it,

01:08:23

I assure you, as time allows. But I would assume that this obscure line begins in verse 24,

01:08:33

I mean, it's only one line, so maybe he's just putting verses 26 and 27 together, but,

01:08:40

Therefore God gave them over, in the lust of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.

01:08:46

For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature, rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. For this reason

01:08:51

God gave them over to degrading passions. Is Mr. Obama confused about what degrading passions might be?

01:08:58

Maybe like, maybe like Barry Lynn, he wasn't sure whether degrading passions was a good thing or a bad thing.

01:09:12

But degrading passions. For their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error.

01:09:29

Now what is obscure about that? Are the words obscure? Is the syntax obscure?

01:09:36

What is, what would, how would this be obscure in light of the fact that the Apostle Paul is drawing from an accepted, fully understandable, legal understanding of homosexuality that was a part of the law that had come before him, and that was a part of the

01:09:53

Jewish community. I just wonder, what makes it obscure?

01:10:01

I'll never get to ask this question, but I really would like to ask the

01:10:07

President of the United States, since in his own book he has presented himself as a person doing

01:10:14

Biblical interpretation, could you tell us what makes these words obscure? And I'd be happy to let him borrow my

01:10:22

Bible, like I had to let Barry Lynn borrow my Bible to talk about Romans 1.

01:10:29

And you all can see how that went. If you watched the debate with Barry Lynn, or maybe the debate with John Shelby Spong on the subject of homosexuality, maybe the

01:10:38

President would debate this subject. That would be great. You don't think so? Maybe? No, not going to happen?

01:10:44

Okay. Well, let's just hope you can still have debates on this subject sometime in the future.

01:10:52

I watched a video, I'm not going to play the whole thing, because it is head -banging -on -the -desk type video.

01:11:01

It really, really is. Oh, it's so bad. Maybe I should, well, it's 15 minutes long, that's why

01:11:08

I can't play the whole thing. Chris Matthews, the quintessential representative of the mainstream media today, speechwriter for Tip O 'Neill, and hence,

01:11:24

I suppose I shouldn't pick on old Chris. Especially in light of his recent appearance on Jeopardy.

01:11:34

Oh, wow, he came in dead last. Oh, it was... A lot of people are having a lot of fun because of the fact that numerous times he had mocked

01:11:43

Sarah Palin and said, we ought to put this woman on Jeopardy! Well, he goes on Jeopardy and faceplants.

01:11:50

I mean, it was hilarious, I'll have to admit. They're all playing for charity and the president's press secretary actually won.

01:12:00

So, anyway. So I really shouldn't pick on poor

01:12:06

Chris because, you know, that was embarrassing. But the reason I wanted to do this, the mainstream media has no interest at all in meaningful, ethical, or moral discussion.

01:12:28

None. Zero. They want to do everything they can to suppress it. I would love to debate

01:12:35

Chris Matthews on the subject of homosexuality, but not on his program. I said debate.

01:12:43

I actually know what a debate is. Debates have rules. Debates have moderators. Debates have time limits. They actually have a particular amount of time to make your argument and then do actual cross -examination.

01:12:54

And you and I both know he would never, ever, ever, ever, ever do that. It wouldn't happen.

01:13:00

It wouldn't happen. But there are some people, and I'm not going to pick on Tony Perkins here.

01:13:12

He put himself in the position of being on Chris Matthews' program. And I don't know what I would do if I was given the opportunity because I can out -talk

01:13:19

Chris Matthews. I can talk over him just as much as I can talk over anybody else. Been there, done that, got the t -shirt. I can talk over him.

01:13:27

That's fine. I'm not sure what that would accomplish. But he walked in the lion's den. Give him credit for that.

01:13:36

And, well, let's just listen to what happened.

01:13:42

I'm not sure where the volume is on this, but hopefully it'll be good. We begin with the

01:13:47

President's same -sex marriage. U .S. Congressman Barney Frank is a Democrat from Massachusetts. And Tony Perkins is

01:13:53

President of the Family Research Council. Tony, thank you for coming on. As always, you've been on many times before.

01:13:59

Let me read you something. Now, you have a homosexual Democratic representative.

01:14:08

And we all know that Barney Frank has a long and sordid history in Washington on the moral level.

01:14:21

And you're talking about the President and gay marriage. How are you going to start the discussion?

01:14:32

Are you going to start the discussion in a fair manner? Are you going to do it in such a way that it's going to have some meaning to it?

01:14:41

Or are you going to immediately set the agenda as putting the conservative, in this case the

01:14:48

Christian, on the defensive? Well, not too difficult a choice, evidently, for Chris Matthews.

01:14:56

About this, there's something you said recently. You were asked about this, about this, what would you say if one of your kids said that he was gay?

01:15:05

And you said, I doubt that would happen with my children, as we are teaching them the right ways that they are to interact as human beings.

01:15:13

Ah! Ah! Why am I screaming? Because, because you must realize that from Chris Matthews' perspective, from the world's perspective, what

01:15:25

Tony Perkins said is blasphemy! It is an absolute violation of the greatest commandment of our society today.

01:15:40

He made a moral judgment, and it was not a moral judgment based upon secularism.

01:15:49

Ah! My goodness. My goodness.

01:15:56

Listen to the outrage, thinly veiled, in what follows.

01:16:06

Well, I'm hitting play, and it says, playing, and this is,

01:16:15

I even downloaded this too. And you said, I doubt that would happen with my children, as we are teaching them the right ways that they are to interact as human beings.

01:16:27

Well, what do you mean by that? If your kid's gay, he's gay, right? What would you have to do with whether he's gay or not?

01:16:34

Well, when you look at the social science research, there is not conclusive evidence that this is genetic or biological.

01:16:42

It is a complex mix of environmental factors. And when you can control many of those environmental factors, you can teach your kids certain ways, you can protect them from certain experiences and certain things that can happen to them that could lead them down a certain path.

01:16:55

So parents decide by the way they raise kids. It is a major factor. What the evidence suggests, it's environment that drives a lot of this.

01:17:04

Not a choice. I didn't say choice, I said environment. That clashes with a lot of thinking. Now, did you catch that?

01:17:11

You can always tell when someone is not being a journalist, they are a participant.

01:17:16

I've been in situations like this, not on this particular subject. Well, let me think about that.

01:17:24

Maybe. Normally, to be honest with you, when the interviewer is showing their bias, they're showing where they're really coming from, it's because of the reformed stuff.

01:17:41

And when you want to participate, you don't want to be fair, what you do is you make these little comments.

01:17:49

And so Tony Perkins, the comment is not a refutation, it's just a, well, that goes against a lot of other people's thinking.

01:17:56

And what is the thinking? The thinking is, well, you're gay because you're gay. You're gay because you were made that way.

01:18:02

You're gay because your genetics said you were going to be gay that way. And everybody knows that's the case. And if you dare question it, you are violating, once again, the canons of our religion in the secular world.

01:18:15

Frank, what do you make of that, this statement by Mr. Perkins? Well, let me come to Dick Cheney's defense here,

01:18:20

Chris. Now, it's hard for me to even listen to this man for many, many, many, many, many, many reasons.

01:18:32

But notice the shift. This isn't meaningful argumentation. This isn't a response to what

01:18:39

Tony Perkins said. It's a complete shift. It is meant to inflame emotion, not thought.

01:18:47

But that's how things happen. According to Mr. Perkins, it's Dick and Lynne Cheney's fault that their daughter was a lesbian.

01:18:56

First of all, He didn't say that, did he? No, he didn't. Could there be an element of sin in the parenting of the

01:19:13

Cheneys that was a part of that? Of course. No parents have ever parented perfectly.

01:19:19

But how is that relevant to the point that he made? And how is any of this relevant to the alleged subject of gay marriage?

01:19:30

Clearly, you have the interviewer and one of the interviewees in cahoots with one another against the third.

01:19:40

And that's what you see all the time. Whenever anyone who will say something about homosexuality that isn't just directly according to this is how you must now think.

01:19:52

Like over in California. I was just over in California. Great folks. But man, I could not live there.

01:20:00

I mean, they have Harvey Milk Day. They force young people to celebrate the life of Harvey Milk in California?

01:20:09

That is just... I mean, Sodom and Gomorrah needs to have an apology at this point. It's just amazing.

01:20:15

But anyway. I don't think there's anything to matter with it. But secondly, the notion that Dick and Lynne Cheney parented in an inferior way to Mr.

01:20:24

Perkins is just one more absurdity. No, I don't think Cheney's failure is in some way to teach their daughter how to interact properly let alone being a lesbian.

01:20:35

I know of no such evidence that says that the parents have an effect one way or the other.

01:20:40

I don't know anybody for whom this... I know no evidence that parents have any effect whatsoever on a child's development or sexuality.

01:20:50

Nah. No, parents are irrelevant. Really. Sexual orientation wasn't involuntary whether people are straight or gay.

01:20:59

But there are a lot of very conservative people who've had gay and lesbian children. And for Mr.

01:21:05

Perkins to be blaming the parents, the Cheneys, for example, for having a lesbian daughter is just one more absurdity.

01:21:14

Chris, I wish we had an instant replay. If Perkins had started off by identifying either

01:21:22

Matthew's position or Frank's position as an absurdity, he would have been cut off immediately.

01:21:31

But you're allowed to do that because you're on the right side, actually the left side, of this situation.

01:21:38

I never blamed anyone or accused anyone. But you said it was the way you parent that determines the orientation of the child.

01:21:44

I said it was the environmental factors. Now, how come neither of these men can hear what I heard him say?

01:21:49

Because they don't want to. This isn't honest. This is a situation where you're wishing to promote a particular worldview and a culture, and the truth of the situation is irrelevant.

01:22:04

You don't treat people fairly. You treat them unfairly, and you do so as to promote your particular agenda.

01:22:10

It's so incredibly obvious. As a parent, I can control a lot of those environmental factors.

01:22:17

Now, Barney's the one who said it was a problem. I never accused him. No, no, let's get back to the way most people...

01:22:23

Excuse me, Chris. He's just backing off what he said. He said he taught his children how to interact properly.

01:22:31

He's the one who said it was improper. He backed... He said it's improper. How terrible.

01:22:37

Again, they are just playing on the lack of discernment upon the part of the audience.

01:22:46

And that it has become culturally unacceptable to make moral statements except a certain set of moral statements.

01:22:59

The only acceptable moral statement is that it's wrong to say anything wrong about homosexuality.

01:23:06

That is the... That's the feigned anger coming forth from Barney Frank.

01:23:13

He's away from what he says. He's on TV now. He wants to look a little more civil. But he clearly said properly and direct.

01:23:22

Okay, luckily we have tape here like in a sports show, and we're going to go back now and show what you said. The question was what would you do if one of your children came to you and said they were gay?

01:23:32

Here's what you said. It's on tape. Let's watch and listen. Now, if you have this already queued up, this was a setup from the start.

01:23:41

A setup from the start. This is a part of the promotion of the agenda.

01:23:50

You can absolutely be certain that there is communication between Matthews and Franks as to exactly what we're going to do.

01:23:58

We're going to have this queued up. I'm going to start here. We're going to put them on the defensive. The whole nine yards. It's just amazing.

01:24:05

I doubt that would happen with my children as we are teaching them the right ways that they are to interact as human beings.

01:24:16

Even though there is a number of people who have become gay or believe they're gay from a very early age, you believe it wouldn't happen with you because of what you do to make sure that you would doubt that your kid would be gay.

01:24:31

That is an enormous power you have that I didn't know people had. Parents have tremendous power in the direction that their children go in teaching them right from wrong, teaching them what is appropriate, what's not appropriate.

01:24:43

Chris Matthews doesn't realize that parents have a tremendous power over their children. Wow. Seriously.

01:24:52

Honestly. I teach my children from the scripture. I teach them biblical standards of morality, and that's how we raise our children.

01:25:01

Can I respond, Chris? Are you saying that if you were Barney's father, he wouldn't be gay?

01:25:06

No, I didn't say that. Well, that's what you just said. So, people can be taught biblical parameters of behavior and still rebel against them and evidently you don't get to hold that view in the world of Barney Frank and Chris Matthews.

01:25:30

Barney's a lot older than I am, so I can't be bothered. Go ahead, Congressman, your thoughts. I apologize.

01:25:36

I said he said it wasn't proper. No, he said it was wrong, that it wasn't right. He backs away from what he says.

01:25:42

The quote said his children wouldn't be gay because he would teach them the right way to interact.

01:25:48

Well, the opposite of that would be the wrong way. He also said... And what is the argument there? You're saying that there's a wrong way.

01:25:55

You're saying there's something right and wrong. Yep, that's exactly what he's saying. There's right and wrong.

01:26:01

Your way is wrong. Period. End of discussion. Now, you want to defend yourself? You want to point out the wonders, the awesome things about homosexual lifestyle?

01:26:14

Then why don't you start putting some gay pride parades up on the screen? Why don't you start putting up some of the disease rates?

01:26:23

Why don't you start putting up some of the studies like the one from Macquarie State University in Australia? Where in interviewing homosexual men 50 plus years of age, in interviewing those men 50 plus years of age, 50 % of them had had more than 100 sexual partners in their life and 25 % had had more than 500 sexual partners in their life.

01:27:00

How about putting that up on the screen, Mr. Matthews? Let's hear about the reality of the disease rate.

01:27:11

Let's hear about the reality of having your colon removed because of disease from the type of sexual intercourse practiced by male homosexuals.

01:27:23

How about putting that up on the screen? Oh, no, no, no, no, no. You're not allowed to do that at all. That's off bounds.

01:27:31

Can't talk about that. Let's talk about the fact that in Denmark, where gay marriage has been available for quite some time, between 90 and 95 % of the homosexuals will not engage in it because they don't want to have a monogamous relationship.

01:27:49

How about the studies that have shown that lesbians who get married have a 150 % higher divorce rate than heterosexuals who get married.

01:27:59

Let's put all that up on the screen. I don't think that that's going to be happening anytime soon.

01:28:09

It went on from there. I just wanted to show it was an illustration of the horrific nature of the way that the mainstream media will not allow this conversation to take place in a meaningful fashion.

01:28:23

And I mean it. I would be happy to debate Chris Matthews, but it would have to actually be a debate. There would be a moderator, there would be a format, there would be no talking over anybody, nothing like that, because clearly that's the only way he can get away with anything, and it's not going to happen.

01:28:40

I'm not worried about it happening, but it would be fun to have it happen. Anyways, thanks folks for listening to The Dividing Line today.

01:28:47

We'll be back on Thursday as we continue to seek to honor God's truth and to call for truthfulness in our society and in the church.

01:28:56

All the glory of the Lord Jesus Christ. We'll be back then. See you then. Bye. AOMIN .ORG