The American Churchman: Are Christian Nationalists the Woke Right?

Conversations That Matter

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:27

Welcome once again to the American Churchman podcast. I'm your host John Harris. The American Churchman podcast is brought to you by TruthScript and it is dedicated to inspiring

00:36

Christian men to embrace their divine calling. We explore a range of topics. My co -host is

00:42

Matthew Pearson. How you doing Matthew? I'm doing good John and I was gonna ask how you're doing but you're sounding a little sick so sorry to hear that but my environment's also a little bit different.

00:53

I'm outside in nature right now because my apartment's Wi -Fi is not working but I'm blessed to have some wonderful friends here who are letting me use their back porch.

01:02

Is that because of the hurricane? Nope nothing to do with hurricane. Our Wi -Fi route is just being stupid and we need to call someone about it so my roommate and I will probably do something about that soon but so now

01:12

I'm here in this lovely environment so yeah. Yeah well I know you and David did the podcast last week and I appreciate

01:18

David doing that with you so you probably already talked about the hurricane but last time I talked to you there was a hurricane approaching and yes it was the second hurricane and you're alive so thank

01:29

God for that. I'm right here yes it was in Tampa for that so that was that was a blast that was fun.

01:35

I saw you cleaning up with guys from I think the old Glory Club chapter that you're in like chopping up branches and things like that and that looked you know

01:47

I just remember when blizzards come through that's the closest approximation for me in New York. My brothers and I would go around the neighborhood and just see who needed help with getting a tree out of the way or something like that.

02:00

Yeah that's really cool though I took note of that I was like that's great that there are people cooperating and helping each other that neighborliness we need to cultivate and keep that.

02:10

So Ultra says he's back our favorite Presby is back. Yeah you were gonna get more than sprinkled in this in this shower but it doesn't seem like it was as bad it was what did it go down to like a category three.

02:24

Yeah it made impact as a category three which for a while they had been saying that was gonna happen but there was like the day of it there was a report that would be a category four which is pretty terrifying but it got down to a category three nevertheless it was still pretty destructive to good parts of town but funny enough my parents have a condo in Treasure Island and that got hit harder but somehow that got hurt harder by Helene than it did

02:51

Milton so beats me but yeah hurricanes are weird but it's part of life living in Florida growing up in Florida so it's just how it is but yeah it's wild.

03:01

Yeah I know Florida I found out this years ago has the most tornadoes per square mile than any other state which kind of shocked me because I associate tornadoes with Kansas and Alaska and Texas and Oklahoma.

03:16

I've never seen one here I hope I don't ever see one but we had quite a lot with Milton so. Oh I'm sure you did well anyway yeah

03:22

I am sick I am gonna be relying on Matthew a little bit here my mind is foggy my wife actually had this like two weeks ago

03:29

I think I think it's the same one and she was just kind of like no energy headache couldn't really think it's kind of weird

03:37

I am stuffed up but it's like it it seems like it taxes my mental energy more than anything else but I was away over the weekend

03:46

I don't know if you saw pictures on X and stuff but I was with a bunch of guys William Wolfe Andrew Isker Tim Bouchard put on this conference

03:54

Joseph Spurgeon was there Rod Martin was there and it was a great time but I drove all the way out there to Indiana and drove back and Tim and I were actually doing some recording in a recording studio too so it was a long trip for me it was like a three -day thing or four day four days of being in Indiana and then yeah

04:11

I guess five days total with the travel so anyway I was fighting it the entire time

04:16

I was like taking dayquil and I was throwing everything I had at it but it caught up with me and it's like right after the conference so anyway

04:25

I appreciate your prayers because I have a lot going on the next few weeks and Matthew have you gotten a chance speaking of a lot going on have you seen the

04:34

David Platt thing at all I mean I've seen him he's going to like some new country or whatever

04:40

I saw a few tweets about it but I have not kept up with it no oh no okay so maybe you're not aware there's a documentary out it's in two parts the first part was released

04:49

Sunday night okay and it's all over social media I would encourage people go check it out the real

04:55

David Platt comm you might find it interesting but it seems awfully interesting that David Platt has this trip coinciding with the release of this

05:04

I don't know if that's was on purpose or or what but anyway check it out and we're gonna we have we're in persevere that we have a lot of stuff to talk about today we have it actually the topic is not we don't have like multiple topics but the topic itself

05:19

I think I could talk for probably two hours straight which I won't do just because there's been so much controversy over this but we're gonna get into whether or not quote -unquote

05:30

Christian nationalism is woke right or you know is it the same thing as wokeness ie social justice 2020

05:38

BLM CRT all of that is it the same thing except for people who are more on the right politically so I've done a little bit of content with CJ Engel about this already but we'll talk about it some more today and get

05:52

Matthew's thoughts on this first though we have an attribute of God to discuss we're gonna be talking about the infinity of God and I'll just throw it to you

06:00

Matthew what is the infinity of God yeah certainly so for this topic

06:06

I kind of just I usually go to a bunch of different texts to kind get something going but right now the majority of my presentation will be from bobbing on this topic so if you ever hear me say something and it sounds very familiar it is not at all original it is probably just plagiarized from Herman bobbing so and he's a he's a very wise guy a very smart guy so I do not feel bad about doing that at all but before we even begin to get into what divine infinity is we're gonna take a look at we're gonna read five verses from Psalm 147 so this is the word of the

06:39

Lord praise ye the Lord for it is good to sing praises unto our God for it is pleasant and praise is comely the

06:47

Lord doth build up Jerusalem he gather us together the outcasts of Israel he healeth the broken in heart and bindeth up their wounds he telleth the number of the stars he calleth them all by their names great is our

07:00

Lord and of great power his understanding is infinite so notice that last word of our

07:06

Psalm from which I chose to do it from the King James but notice the last word his understanding is infinite the way in which we would define divine infinity and like just very simple straightforward terms is basically this

07:21

God is not limited by anything finite or creaturely basically it's talking about how

07:27

God is limitless there is nothing by which he is bound to nothing which actually limits him

07:33

God is he's infinite so infinity as an attribute is a positive concept it

07:40

God's infinity there are various ways in which we can speak of it it's not just infinity is this and no more they're based off the circumstance in which we're speaking of infinity can have various implications so many different uses depending on the context so for example if one means that God cannot be confined by time then his infinity would coincide with his eternity so if we want to speak about God's eternity or God's infinity in relation to time we would refer to his eternity if one wants to speak of how

08:09

God is not confined by space then we would speak about his infinity in relation to his omnipresence if we want to speak about infinity in relation to the fact that God is unlimited in his virtues and that in him every virtue is present in an absolute degree we would speak about God's perfection so infinity is just a very multifaceted attribute in that based off the circumstance in which we're speaking of it it can you can refer to various other attributes as well because remember our lesson on simplicity all that is in God is

08:42

God some important things to know about divine infinity as well divine infinity is not referring to an infinity of magnitude so like for when

08:53

I say magnitude I mean like people may speak of boundless dimensions of the spatial universe so it's not referring to an infinity of magnitude because God is incorporeal and without extension he doesn't take up space so it's not saying oh

09:07

God takes up all the space in the world no God is without a body of course God according to his divine nature divine infinity is also not referring to an infinity of number

09:18

God being the smallest or the largest because this would contradict the fact that God is not an infinity of number because he is one

09:26

God is simple so we went over divine oneness and divine simplicity divine infinity instead would refer to an infinity of essence or in other words we would basically say

09:37

God is infinite in his characteristic essence absolutely perfect infinite and intensive qualitative and positive sense so by virtue that's very confusing topic but God's very own essence cannot be bounded he is pure perfection and that nothing limits him the only thing by which

09:58

God is actually limited by if we were to say God is limited by anything is he can't contradict himself and that's it so that was a lot it's a lot to get through but that in a nutshell is the infinity of God yeah that was excellent so this encompasses more than just because I was thinking with infinity you're thinking of like his eternality and it's more than that it's you know the the thing that I know confuses children sometimes and then atheists like to use is when there are like limitations can

10:31

God make a rock so big he can't lift it that kind of thing would that refute his infinity

10:37

I mean I know I'm what I would say but what would you say to that well I would just the way that I would respond is

10:44

I would pull it pose a different question about King God do this I would say can God light bulb blue red fart yellow green underwear make any sense that's not really a coherent sentence so to ask him

10:57

God create a rock so heavy he can't lift it that's like yeah you've strung a ring of like you've strung words together that somewhat makes sense same way

11:05

I've strung words together but the point the principle being God cannot do anything which is irrational or illogical now

11:14

God can do things that are beyond our understanding or beyond our comprehension that we have a hard time that we have a hard time reasoning to and that we have to ascend to by faith for example the

11:23

Trinity but even when you look at something like the Trinity the Trinity itself is not a contradiction in terms it's the fact that there are three persons sharing the same essence who are still distinct persons persons who we distinguish by their relations it still makes sense the thing is is that it is a something you can't get to without special revelation you can't look at the created order around you and say

11:45

God is Trinity you have to have him reveal himself to you so that's just yeah you are not at all saying that oh

11:52

God can't do this God not see therefore God is not infinite no obviously God cannot contradict himself because if God contradicted himself

12:00

God would cease to be and if God ceased to be everything in reality would cease to be there would be there'd be pure nothingness which is obviously not the case yeah that was good man are you taking systematic theology and going over some of these things right now uh not at the moment no we

12:17

I mean I have an intro to pastoral and theological studies class but that's kind of like more of the baseline stuff we haven't really dug too deep in there yet so this is just me being a spurg so yeah yeah well you articulate it well and that's something that I've encountered many times on college campuses whether it's that example or another example meant to try to pose some kind of attribute of God against itself and it's a fun that you know like the answer is no and that's what

12:49

I usually say just like no he can't engage in logical contradictions because yeah that's part of his attributes is long and so you're asking him to not be

12:59

God at that point and so yeah is infinity I mean he's also he is logical he is there's no contradiction within him and there isn't within our own hearts but not within him either morally or logically or any other way so I mean it's almost like asking can

13:19

God cease to exist oh you say God can't cease to exist and it's like no like everyone understands that to sit to ask if God can make himself cease to exist is a contradiction would it would just prove if an atheist said that and someone said oh of course

13:34

God can that would just prove atheism in a sense but I mean that's obviously ridiculous it's obviously silly and even atheists know not to ask a dumb question like that because they could put the piece together so they should also be able to recognize that to say can

13:45

God create a rock so big he can't lift it is just contradiction in terms you know speaking of atheists

13:50

I saw a clip this morning of Richard Dawkins on with Jordan Peterson uh -huh

13:55

I don't know if you've ever watched I guess they did an interview I don't know if it was recent but they're asking about the historical

14:02

Jesus and Jordan Peterson is like dancing around the whole thing he can't tell you whether or not

14:09

Jesus actually rose from the dead and Richard Dawkins is like on the scientific wavelength of like we have we have to have empirical proof of this it was kind of hard to watch yeah

14:19

I'm not gonna lie it was a little hard I was like come on Jordan come on well cuz he's like he's such a smart guy but he's too smart for his own good in some ways and it's like I don't know he's

14:30

I see I never really jumped on the Jordan Peterson train like a lot of I know a lot of people that have like I never really got

14:35

I've seen enough clips of him to know like yeah this guy is uh is interesting and you just wish they'd make the jump already

14:43

I do know that his wife converted to Roman Catholicism so it's like yeah well someone close to him is accepting you know the

14:49

Christian God so we just need to get him to make that stuff and then for the final step we just need them to become Protestant so yeah his daughter might be

14:56

Protestant I'm not sure if she's Catholic or evangelical of some variety I was trying to figure that out a few weeks ago because I was running on something yeah

15:05

I don't know I she may be Catholic or Orthodox that's like the trendy online right -wing thing to do right now so she's probably are we not right wing is that what you're saying no no no cuz we uh no we don't need to be trendier right -wing or no we do need to be right -wing we don't need to be trendy right right all right so we're gonna talk about this article there's so many thoughts that I could share but I guess there's two ways we can go about this we can either read it go through it or you've already read it and I've skimmed it and we can just talk about the major points in it which is

15:39

I kind of favor that so let me just show everyone the article yeah I should probably mention this podcast is sponsored by truth script if you want to support the podcast you can make a 501 it is a 501 c3 you can make a tax deductible donation you just scroll to the bottom where it says donate you can also contribute to truth script there's a lot of great articles

16:04

I'm actually really impressed with how I think it my brother and there's a whole team he's got that will edit these things and they're just doing a good job but the one that was posted on October 17th is entitled our

16:20

Christian nationalists that woke right by JJ Eisenbaum and JJ I'm wondering if this is his first article because I don't recognize yeah it is it's his first article and I think this is pretty cool

16:33

Matthew so JJ it says in his bio is a janitor and a junk hauler by day and a mathematics tutor by night now what a combination and anyway the rest is pretty standard general stuff but I thought that was kind of interesting some of the smartest people

16:53

I've met are blue -collar guys yeah but this is the article and yeah let's just start talking about some of maybe we should set the groundwork first the term woke right

17:07

I don't know of a lot of people who use that James Lindsay's probably the most prominent figure who uses that online and if you don't know who

17:15

James Lindsay is he was part what is his claim to fame I think that he was part of this kind of hoax with with two other professors where they had really it's kind of funny they had really showed how vacuous the social justice left is this is a few years ago when they submitted to these leftist journals these articles that were ridiculous like rape culture at dog parks and they did one where they rewrote mine conf and they just switched out some few words and it was they were accepted and so James Lindsay since then has been involved he's from the left more but in fact he told me that at a conference he said

17:59

I'm a liberal he was that we were at CPAC he's like I'm not sure what I'm doing here but that was 2020 since then he has found a place in Charlie Kirk's organization and that's how you might know him so anyway that's where you hear the term

18:15

I'm gonna have to have you take over Matthew my sickness is is creeping up on me here so the term woke right what does it mean yeah woke right um so I began

18:25

I began to see this sort of pop up in about the past almost yearish

18:31

I'd like to say maybe eight months to a year and basically what it seems to be trying to do is conceptualize both

18:37

Christian nationalist Christian nationalist and people on the more dissident right as basically they are you know they accept this woke framework that the left has set up but they just simply inverse certain things and so there's like this idea of victim complex there's this idea of race real race and ethnicity really do matter and play a part in society and so because people on the dissident right and Christian nationalist right will think in certain categories which fall outside the standard boundaries of like classical liberal orthodoxy when

19:16

I say classical liberal I don't actually mean the classical liberalism of the founding

19:21

I think that those guys you know to use like online lingo they were a lot more based or keyed than we like to give them credit for there's no sense in which their classical liberalism is anything like the like Dave Rubin's classical liberalism or something like that but basically if you don't accept those premises and you think in more early modern even pre -modern terms you're seen as basically accepting a critical theory framework which is something that only libtards do that only woke people do and therefore you are now woke right and so that's the way they kind of try and frame it so they'll like they may look at circles of the online right that basically say they like to talk about you know like they'll repost like these like anti -semitic memes about like the

20:06

JQ or something like that and they'll be like see this is just like critical theory but they're just flipping reversing white people for Jewish people or something like that and so then they'll take that framework and be like because all the dissident right and Christian right likes to you know evaluate groups and talk about identity and things like that they're there for participating in this sort of thing as well so it's pretty silly though I mean

20:29

I get where they're coming from and why they do it but I just think that it's overly simplistic and you're basically just trying to uphold like the the post war post you know civil rights movement like you're trying to uphold that consensus by beating like by beating the left and then looking to the right and being like you're just like this and trying to use the same hammer so that's kind of how

20:50

I how I view it yeah I think that's a good summary of it I've seen some people are putting in the chat

20:55

Neal Chen Shen V online uses it I think Joel Barry from clear truth media uses it mm -hmm so these are less prominent names but James Lindsay's probably the most prominent and it's kind of convenient in a way

21:10

I'm not saying that all these guys use it for this purpose but I could see it being used for this purpose to say hey look at me

21:16

I'm reasonable I'm moderate I'm not crazy yeah here I'm standing in the middle and then on my right side is this ditch on my left side is this ditch they're both woke

21:27

I'm not and I pointed out before that liberalism itself and and again everything you just said about liberalism liberalism itself though this commitment to the greatest amount of personal freedom participation in markets the greatest well we're seeing it right now at the election unbridled sexual constraints you know lack of constraints so that you can't not have the punishment of having a child

21:58

I mean that's really the result of liberalism right there diversity being our strength culture and ethnicity and these other things religion not being important we can now share a society as long as we're individuals right that's the kind of liberalism

22:14

I'm talking about that has its own heroes and villains right they see they look at the quote -unquote woke people whether they want to say it's woke right or woke left and they create a hierarchy it's inescapable you're gonna have to say there's these forces out there that threaten us essentially and so so what are some of the reasons that because because you made the argument and I see a look there's a disparity

22:40

Jewish people let's say have more money than white people therefore they're oppressors and right -wing people are you know more aware of that kind of thing than left -wing actually

22:54

I don't even know if that's true to be quite honest because all the people either because you know you see a lot of a lot of free

23:02

Palestine people jq posting to I know I know I'm gonna say it's mostly the left like obsessed with that so but yeah maybe they can use as an argument for her where woke right and well intersect so you know

23:15

I guess we're we're horseshoe theory yeah yeah yeah alright so whether it's that or try to think like what are the other things they bring up to say that you're just I've seen the accusation that woke right is standpoint theory just like social justice of woke left is because yeah we think that certain things are situational so for example let's take something like gun rights or welfare or I don't know you know different social policies and in certain circumstances we will say

23:53

I'm saying we because I'm including our because what because we will probably get called this because we're conservative and we're more conservative than James Lindsay who's a liberal yeah we'll say something like a there's gonna be different restrictions in areas where you like there's less responsibility they're gonna need more a heavy hand of the government more than any a stronger police force for example you know there's things suitable for that environment that are suitable for other environments and they'll turn around and say that standpoint theory you're saying that some groups have different truths and other groups which we're not saying but that's what they'll say so can you think of anything else that makes them drop parallels here well yeah no

24:33

I think another is kind of bit going off of what you said with like standpoint epistemology but I would say that on the more what they would call woke right there is a sense in which like classical conservatism especially as seen within paleo -conservatism is incredibly particular in the way in which they view government in the way in which they view like customs and cultures of different peoples and so they're very particular in that different people different customs different cultures have these different things that that will necessarily change how they may be governed or something like that and so what that may lead some people to do is they'll say that's just like standpoint epistemology because you're you don't have like this more universalist framework of politics or of human so they may say you don't even have a universalist framework of human nature basically because all people are the blank slate but in reality it's not woke to acknowledge that because I mean it's just it's the classical understanding especially if you're like you know a lot of our audience

25:37

I assume is more in the reform tradition if you read someone like Johannes Althusias if you read

25:42

Franciscus Junius if you read Calvin if you read Vermigli if you read anything they have to say about politics something they always acknowledge is that different peoples behave differently different forms of government that among the civil magistrate are permissible to do based off the character customs and culture of the people and that's why different laws are instituted in different places in different regions and if you really want a very succinct picture of this

26:05

I would highly recommend reading Johanna not Johannes Althusias but read him too but I'm Franciscus Junius is the mosaic polity but I just I think that's something that's very important is understanding particular ism but I think that a lot of these more like classical liberal again classical liberal in quotes well a lot of these guys will think is that particular ism is standpoint epistemology when it's not because particular is still acknowledge that there is a universal truth which all things like have to adhere with but that there are distinctions there are differences within life which actually have implications for how do you do politics when it seems a lot of the more liberal people who have a more universalist understanding of things

26:49

I mean it's a reason why the people that wanted democracy in Iraq they're like oh it'll work there because they're humans just like us and it's like yeah they are humans just like us but they also have an entirely different history than us they're used to different things in us so yeah that's the end of my schmeal there at least

27:07

John I think you're muted ah there can you hear me now I can yes

27:12

Jesus acknowledges this too because he talks about the fact that it was because of the hardness of heart that God implemented these regulatory rules concerning divorce in the

27:25

Old Testament time and even when the disciples are taking grain he says that the

27:34

Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath admitting that there are these situational things that direct certain laws in other words and it doesn't mean that there aren't universal laws there certainly are but they will manifest themselves differently sometimes in different environments that's all it is that's all that's all

27:52

I see so with that said it's you know

27:59

I don't think they're gonna call Jesus woke right or woke in any sense there you'd have to go back and look at all the

28:07

Greco -Roman philosophers everyone's woke under this paradigm because they're talking about things that are pretty much inescapable but if you want to engage in the political

28:15

I guess you're woke so the three things maybe to shift gears here the three things that I I noted and you can add to this that are differences between the woke right and then the woke the woke right or I shouldn't even say the woke right because I don't want to I don't know like use that term in a positive way

28:36

I don't think we should use that term at all but if you want to say conservatives to the right of James Lindsay are woke right they have these differences they are not interested in ripping down hierarchies that's pretty much the core of the woke movement is realizing that there's these hierarchies that needed to be ripped down and I realized someone might say well you know conservatives want to take care of the deep state and that kind of thing well that's true like you know we do want to get rid of the deep state but we see that as an artificial corruption of hierarchy that that it was because of the destruction of intermediary forces voluntary associations weakening of the family labor relationships all these kinds of things because of that the state ends up growing and so we want to actually restore hierarchy we see this as something good and natural and so we're positive about hierarchy when we talk about it the left and the woke right they don't want to admit that they engage in hierarchy at all because they're totally egalitarian and against hierarchy they're always about extending equality where social equality in wherever they go and all their policies so this is a difference the right is interested in a ordered freedom that includes hierarchy for positive good the left the woke they don't that's why they're destructive they don't want any of that so that's one thing another thing

30:14

I'll just say these two things real briefly is the left engages in a totalizing critique meaning we just talked about universality but they will like feminists think everything's related to feminism so critical race theorists see racism everywhere there's no neutral activities the quote -unquote

30:33

Roke right or in other words conservatives we don't do those totalizing critiques we don't reduce reality to some very simple precept that is the key to explaining the whole we could talk about that more that's ideology really and then the other thing this is a really

30:51

I think basic thing is we're not our critiques are not based on outright lies the woke that was one of the main issues with them there's racism there's this there's that but then they couldn't back any of it up oftentimes it was just the police are racist why well if you have to ask the question you're the one that's an oppressor

31:15

I mean they did not value truth at all and that does not describe the right at all so those are three things those are major things that would distinguish conservatives from quote unquote woke people what are some other things

31:27

Matthew or are there other things that you can think of are there other things that would they would use that would like differentiate what who are called the woke right from the yeah like what yeah what's why is this a ridiculous canard yeah yeah

31:43

I think a good point that you brought up that I wanted to expand on is the point on hierarchy as you said the woke are at least in theory not so much in their practice but in theory they are like explicitly egalitarian

31:59

I think in practice and a lot of them by fantasy they really do kind of just want to like basically enslave white people

32:06

I'm not really you know I think that's actually the case but no in theory they're they're egalitarian and they see these hierarchies and institutions and they seek to tear them down whereas anyone had to use a phrase you use which is a bit longer than woke right but I like it a lot anyone to the right of James Lindsay anyone to the right of James Lindsay the way in which they view it is they are right wing they are more conservative therefore hierarchy is something good because there is a created order and important sorry there's squirrels running distracting me important to the created order is the fact that there is a hierarchy instituted

32:40

I mean look at Genesis 1 in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth

32:46

God at the top and then as he creates there's hierarchies man over the beast then husband over wife then husband and wife over children

32:55

I mean hierarchy is literally fundamental to the classical system and you know even when you look at non -christian sources like Plato Aristotle all these people hierarchy so those of us to the right of James Lindsay what we seek to do is to actually not tear down these hierarchies and just leave them down no if there's anything like the deep state you want to get in there and remove it but for the sake of true good godly hierarchy so that is something that we do uphold and you know when people like hurl accusations of like Oh patriarchy yada yada and it's just like you know that's not coming from nowhere because we do believe in a sense that there is like hierarchical systems in nature and that is what characterizes being right -wing is recognizing that hierarchy is something good now are there sometimes hierarchies where justice is not always there and it can be abused absolutely

33:50

I mean look at husbands who abuse their wives look at states that become tyrannical and enslave their citizens that kind of thing happens all the time but it doesn't mean that it is intrinsically bad so correct hierarchies going corrupt is not necessarily mean that it's bad but yeah that's like the only really thing the big thing that I thought of from your list of what to add on was just get kind of expand on the fact that like our goals are totally different you may want to claim that all you guys have the same framework but it say that you know say that I grant the premise that we do

34:21

I'm a woke I'm woke okay look guys I'm a critical theorist this is how I view the world say I were to grant that my goals are still entirely different the way in which

34:29

I seek to like use this is entirely different and I think that's what a lot of them don't want to acknowledge yeah and some of the points that the article makes are that that's this term so getting into the etymology of it this term woke this was created by leftists and they wanted to imply that people who did not see the abuses and oppressions were asleep still so it was an insult against those who weren't woke now of their running from it but that's why it was originally created and there is an element of authorial intent here like they used it for their issues and it was a kind of a smear tactic

35:10

I guess you could say and the term has been somewhat transformed it's been co -opted by the right as a now a smear term against them and he makes the case that this is somewhat into vacuous as far as the term itself it never like in love itself had a

35:30

I mean it's not even good grammar it didn't have like a comprehensive definition it was a rhetorical device used to propel a social justice movement and we've had those for centuries so this isn't like a brand new thing but the use of the term was supposed to be providing support for the latest iteration of Black Lives Matter essentially and maybe to a lesser extent the

35:59

Me Too movement so and the LGBT I should put that in there too so it's attached to these movements not to right leaning movements that's where it arose from that's where it was used and then to just take it from that context and apply it to other contexts it makes the term even it increases this is what he's basically trying to argue that it makes it a devil word it increases the negativity applied to it so you hear it and you're like that's bad but it makes the term itself less meaningful you don't know what it means anymore you just know it's really bad it's like calling someone a fascist what is that you know people use it in so many different ways we hardly know you know so so we shouldn't use the term is the argument that is made in this particular article by JJ Eisenbaum yeah

36:57

I thought maybe it would be prudent to explore the ideological angle just a little bit too because to me this is the hardest concept to grasp in this but I wrote

37:08

I put a tweet out there the other day I said something like you can't have conservatism and ideology or you can't be an ideologue and say you're a conservative something like that and there was a little bit of discussion because I think some people wanted to know what

37:22

I mean by an ideologue and I mean the woke right term is

37:28

I think crafted by people who are looking at things ideologically liberals tend to be ideological the woke social justice movement is obviously ideological and really what that means is that their metaphysic narrows all of earthly experience everything that we experience whether it's sense perception or even in the spiritual world everything we experience gets truncated into this very narrow channel where we can evaluate it with using these very simple precepts we don't have to know much all we have you know it's like libertarianism is basically an ideology or at least it can be it can function that way because it's just like well the non -aggression principle in a free market and that's it very simple it those two things hold the key to at least in certain versions of libertarianism they hold the key to all kinds of problems and most problems are quite come more complex than that like it's not you're not gonna find all the answers in those two principles and this is a very

38:34

Enlightenment driven modernist kind of way understanding it's it's a way to try to scientifically kind of like at the root level find what are the laws at the base in the most simplistic form that govern everything and if we can just break the code then we can figure out the key to life and and that's how the woke people operate you've noticed probably if you interact with them it's hard to have a conversation outside of this very narrow window that they're familiar with because oftentimes they're activists in their lives that their skills and their experiences and everything fit within this very narrow mold and I don't see that with conservatives that's not how conservatives operate conservatives generally are a lot more holistic in the way that they look at life and traditions conservatives inherently like to conserve good and valuable traditions traditions are not compatible with ideology really ideology is a very abstract top -down cerebral thing that you impose on everything traditions are very organic bottom -up develop over time conserve wisdom and the wisdom is displayed through experience so in general conservatives are going to be much more wanting to look at experience and what's worked in the past what what are the how do humans usually behave maybe we should adjust ourselves and our policies to that because we can't live in a perfect world so I mean that's fundamentally

40:11

I think at the root of a lot of this is humans aren't necessarily good they they have their their flaws and when humans act in certain ways we have to adjust our policies and that kind of thing whereas the left has a one -size -fits -all ideological top -down no mercy damned the consequences kind of way of approaching these these political problems that's hard to grasp and I admit

40:38

I you know maybe Matthew you can do a better job explaining this because I've struggled with this for years because I think by default we're all kind of ideologues that's the education system we're in that's the entertainment media we're in constantly drumming slogans into our minds that reinforce ideologies namely liberalism you know

40:59

I don't know if you you're younger than me but even in a homeschool family I was exposed to diversity is our strength you can be anything you want to be you know you should you know my body my choice all of those things

41:14

I was in the water I swam in just because it was so pervasive those are all ideological principles really so that's

41:24

I think a key difference between social justice wokeness quote -unquote and then the conservatism and they're not compatible and the people who want to make them compatible have to basically truncate conservatism into a cartoon they have to make it an ideology they have to change it in order to try to make this comparison work yeah that's a good analysis

41:46

John um something that I had also thought of when you were going through like how conservatism and like the woke on the left well the woke left how that's kind of incompatible with anything you know is

42:03

I think something which is important is that whenever you look at people on the right versus people on the left especially on like the woke people on the left they're always very utopian and when you describe conservatism and here's the thing about utopianism is that utopianism springs from like particular ideologies not every ideology is utopian but when you're talking about ideologies on the left nearly all the time they're incredibly utopian and I think that's part of what distinguishes them from conservatives is that they seek to they real like there's not like a perfect like final eschatological you know society that conservatives think they can just bring about by preserving their traditions and cultures and customs it's always an acknowledgment that we have to conservatism can never be passive and part of the reason why so many people on the right today don't want to call themselves conservative is because there's this understanding it's like what is there even to conserve anymore people from like 60 50 years ago just gave up everything basically there's nothing left to conserve and that's because conservatism itself is not a passive it's not a passive thing you just do you have to actively uphold your traditions you have to up actively uphold your customs and things like that and there's this realization that if you don't do that if you're not actively working like that it's gonna go away and we see that happening now whereas it seems like you know when you think of the woke or you think of you know we want to go back farther communism just it's always utopian it's like once we finally get this it's like peace it's all it's all there now now we finally have it and I just I don't see that with people on the right that's an excellent point

43:52

I'd even think of that and I think worth contemplating the utopian aspect here let's do a few questions and then we'll wrap up the show so some questions let's see here

44:05

I've started a few of them if you have questions get them in now stormy squad anyone using the term thinks in group preference is woke that's a good point yeah you're not supposed to have any attachments to your people your region

44:22

I would argue for the logic to hold even your family's that's the liberal mindset is you are an individual and your allegiance is essentially to the world to yourself but beyond that you know there's yourself and there's the world and you and engage in these different contracts that do not violate your will and your choice that's how liberals look at the way someone goes through life that's well

44:53

I would say they say that for one particular group of people and everybody else can have their in -group preferences can have their path and have all that they only say that for one group and yeah everyone watching and listening and you know who this group is so yeah well yeah yeah white people then and Christians primarily are the exceptions here but yeah

45:16

I would agree the thing is human nature you can't fight it we're gonna have in -group preferences you're gonna you're gonna favor you

45:22

I have a daughter right now I'm gonna favor my daughter over other people's daughters when it doesn't mean I'm gonna fudge you know

45:28

I'm not gonna violate moral principles to cheat for my daughter or something like that you know in the example of like you know if I was a coach on the baseball team but I my resources my time my allegiance is to her so that's incompatible that actually automatically creates a hierarchy of some kind you can't not have it do that and it's going to there are gonna be these preferences anyway liberals on the left demand equality of outcome liberals on the right demand equality of opportunity equality is the highest good says

46:03

Matt Borish you want to respond to that can you pull it back up it was something about equality of opportunity

46:11

I just lost it I think I remember what he said though it was that liberals equality of outcome conservatives equality of opportunity both are making equality their highest good yeah

46:20

I mean I myself like I don't actually don't mind equality of opportunity in some particular circumstances but I think on the right the reason why you have to be careful is because that can kind of open up like crazy streams of like mass immigration basically where it's like oh if you universalize equality of opportunity then that like can almost be like therefore we have to open the world up we have to open ourselves up to the world but I get his point that he's making but I think in certain circumstances equality of opportunity is just a system being just and giving people that which is their goal which is the opportunity to do particular things

46:56

I think what you're describing is equality before the law and I would agree with you on that but yeah that's just if someone murders someone or breaks the rules they get a just punishment no matter who they are if they should be rewarded they'll be rewarded no matter who they are but yeah

47:15

I don't like the even framing of equality of opportunity just because of what you just said and people are going to naturally start off at different points we're nothing is equal when it comes to humans some people have better minds better bodies or certain aspects of their minds or bodies are better what's that IQ you know like your body that are disabled you know like God gives

47:40

God gives people different differing native gifts why I don't know yeah and then you're someone might inherit more money from their parents they may be sad you know that you can't if you want to try to make that all equal you're gonna find that it's not possible

47:55

Tom says the key definitional distinct it distinction of the term woke right is the appeal to post -liberal systemic narratives and eventual appeals to authoritarianism hmm

48:06

I'm trying to digest that in my head right now my sick mind yeah it's a very good point though I'm in agreement yeah let's go to the next one

48:17

Diane says what about the tendency towards elitism yeah the woke people definitely they they don't like to admit that they're creating hierarchies because they're always

48:27

I mean even Kamala Harris is you know what does she say with every question she's asked every single time I'm from a working -class family every time yeah yeah everything she's part of the biggest elite cabal in this country the most influential group of people in this country

48:43

Kamala Harris is part of it she she's running for president like she's vice president right now yeah

48:49

I don't have a problem with elitism I just think that we have really bad elites who are incompetent I just want good ones so I love

48:56

Trump because he's like are we making lots of money I have lots of money like so he's real you know he's just John Carter the woke don't actually believe in equality they don't just want to destroy hierarchy they want to invert all natural hierarchies that's a great point mm -hmm it is an inversion you know they they want to that's the intersectionality thing yeah

49:19

Lindsay fan here I'll I'm gonna let Matthew do this what does the term what does that term mean to the right of Lindsay he's a classic liberal and which

49:28

I checked is fairly conservative so our classic liberal yeah well classical liberals were fairly somewhat conservative in certain conceptions of it if I recall correctly but the the way that we talk about this is that Lindsay I mean let's think about it the guy is pro -gay marriage the guy is okay with abortion so just to give those few examples

49:57

I don't really think that that's very I don't think those are right -wing positions that's just me though gay marriage and abortion

50:06

I think that we can safely say he is on the left now he may call himself a classical liberal if for that reason he may say oh we'll see

50:13

I want all people to be you know I want everyone to be able to have their own right to do because I champion freedom because I'm a liberal but the thing is is if you actually track conservatism and liberalism people on the right in this country for the past like however long very long until quite recently we're always against homosexual marriage we're always against abortion

50:37

I mean that's just that's how we have I mean it can be a little bit too simplistic like that's left that's right but just based off how the left right wing you know functions in our country that's how it goes which is why we say to the right of James Lindsay because some of us do believe that gay marriage is not actually marriage and that it's actually an abomination some of us actually do think that abortion is a wicked evil thing and is not about bodily autonomy some of us do think that having true freedom needs to happen within the confinements of a virtuous society which sometimes a state needs to bring about like I don't mind saying that even

51:18

I mean the founders all look at all the states had blasphemy laws are you telling me they oh well they weren't real classical liberals yes they were it was a founders so that's what we mean when we say to the right of James Lindsay we're in the classical conservative tradition of the

51:35

United States be it whether you want to be a federalist or an anti -federalist that they were agreed in a lot of these points back then so that's all

51:43

I'll say for that one yeah I just keep remembering in my mind at 2020 James Lindsay told me I had a bird he

51:49

I saw him right there right in front of me he said I don't I don't feel like if he said

51:54

I he felt like a fish out of water he didn't feel like he belonged at CPAC CPAC by the way not that conservative it's

52:02

Normie stuff dude yeah you have your atheist for Liberty your tranny for Trump I mean it was just I was kind of shocked

52:10

I was like this doesn't seem conservative at all but he was kind of like I'm a liberal I don't belong here so if that gives you any idea yeah

52:20

I do think that when people could Clem Beck's been doing this for years they start on this classical liberal thing oftentimes it it really

52:30

I don't know if it veils it but it puts in intellectually respectable terms a commitment to pluralism generally and and and religious pluralism included in that and and then you know they'll say that they want the free market and people to basically be able to make their own choices that's the classical liberal side of it but like they just again they just see people there's like people and then there's the government there's and you operate in life by entering these consent consensual bounds with your all -powerful choice it's not conservatism sees people as born into families communities with obligations already there when

53:17

I have a daughter who was just born a few months ago she didn't have a choice in where she was born she was born into a particular family into a particular community with all the benefits that those things give to her and then she'll develop a fondness for those things and those attachments will grow stronger as she gets older if things go correctly and she will see herself as having a responsibility to upkeep the things that were passed down to her that's a conservative view

53:51

I don't the classic whether you want to say modern liberal or classic liberal

53:57

I'm saying the people that I know who use the term classic liberal generally want to erode that whether they know they're doing it or not they they just look at these individuals they're not even people anymore they're individuals that engage in a market and make choices and you're not supposed to question the decisions of the market because that's the will of the people democracy of course is all caught up in this as you know the superior form of government because of this and yeah so so we're actually out of time so we got to kind of land the ship or land the plane here but yeah hopefully that helps at least with James Lindsay a little bit all right so next well we haven't planned we're gonna talk about next week but we are planning to be here next week next

54:47

Tuesday we got to talk about oh I think I will be here actually so yeah I was gonna say

54:53

I think it's the week after that that I won't be but I will be here next Tuesday so you can look forward to seeing Matt and I again and if you want to follow

54:59

Matt on what's your what's your Twitter handle Matt if I'm remembering rightly it's underscore

55:05

Matthew Pearson but I can check that for you really quick actually you don't know your