Islam, and Roman Catholicism

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

Setting Up the Discussion of Osama Abdullah and the Cross Inscriptions

And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line. Hope you saw the blog that I announced that our discussion of Zainab bint Josh will be on Tuesday of next week. And I had mentioned at the end of last program I was hoping to do that today.

But we're going to be doing it next week. And so I hope you're not too disappointed with that. We will be having some Islamic discussion today and so hopefully this will be of use to you. I was listening to a Debate as I was writing earlier this week.

Well, it was sort of a debate. It wasn't much of a debate. It was an encounter between Nabil Qureshi, dr. Nabil Qureshi MD Of acts 17 ministries Nabil and David Wood who have been running around out there Getting themselves in all sorts of problems.

They they were roughed up at the Arabic festival in Dearborn and then they were at ISNA. It must be it must be nice to be these guys. They they evidently don't Do it out there in England. I just saw Nabil was on Unbelievable radio program and they're they're they're bopping all over the place.

They're doing their thing and that's that's great. We we love these guys they're they're out there doing doing what needs to be done, but Anyway Before all that happened. I think this debate took place right after they got roughed up may have been the same day.

Now I think about it. And so We They had this debate that evening with Osama Abdullah. Now. I would you remember that I Engaged Osama, I think in March of last year in Southern California somewhere because I'm in California sometime last year I don't remember all the details, but anyway, and and it was Well, it's interesting Osama stands there and he reads stuff off of his website and throws everything but the kitchen sink out there.

There's there's no standards. There's no, you know knowledge the background of any of the quotations he's using or any of the things like that and It doesn't matter how many times you correct him. He does not hear correction at all.

It doesn't it just doesn't matter how clear it is. He's just gonna keep repeating the same things and after a while it Gets very frustrating. And so I invited Osama to call the program today and to Present to us what he says in this debate.

I'm gonna play a section here and then we're already getting phone calls on other issues. But I'm gonna play at least this one section I want to get back to some others because I told Osama that I would address these issues today.

So I want to try to get to them but He was thrown out a bunch of stuff that's supposed to be on the resurrection of Jesus. Nabil gave a very standard clear focused Tight presentation on the historical evidence of the of the Resurrection well crucifixion resurrection things like that Osama didn't touch any of that.

He can't touch any of that. He's not as it's not his thing. He just throws stuff out there and So This this was Toward the end of his his opening presentation and basically he had run out of things to say About the subject and so what Osama does is if he still has five minutes left.

He'll start talking about anything else it's just he's just got his website up and he'll start scrolling through stuff and start reading stuff and It's very frustrating because it's very brief. It's very surface level.

It doesn't have much meaning to it, but it's it's out there. So this is what he said about the what I wanted to do is I want to have him on say, okay Look, you've met you made this claim before let's listen to the claim that he makes.

And I wanted to give him five minutes to just explain this himself and and then we could talk about it. But here's here's what? Osama said in the debate with Nabil Qureshi just a couple weeks ago.

First what's in chapter 3 verse 16 and 2nd 31 and so on chapter 12 verse 6 and so on chapter 18 verse 3 30 rather and Proverbs chapter 3 verse 5 they say God Almighty's words are flawless. They're errorless.

They're perfect. Okay. Yeah, we see here in the Bible. In John chapter 18 verse 48 says he was a robber. In Luke chapter 20 verse 19 Was a murderer. In our chapter 15 verse 7 was a enter us insert insurrection.

Now he just throws those things out as If they're somehow contradictory. Most people were all of those things. So the idea in Osama's mind is in the Gospels Matthew should be a mirror image of Mark which should be a mirror image of Luke which should be a mirror image of John.

They should they should say the exact same things if they use different words if they describe things differently. If they use different descriptions a different order of presentation anything like that.

It proves the Bible's wrong. So what you should just have is it's the same gospel repeated four times evidently. I mean, that's the only way this makes any sense. And it's insurrectionist. Is the term I think he was searching for there.

But the insurrectionists would rob and they would murder and those would all be subcategories the same thing. So, you know most people reading that would go. Well, that doesn't really make much sense.

But again when you're just looking for stuff to throw out and hope something sticks. That's what that's what you do. But keep in mind this idea. The Gospels have to be identical or the Bible is is untrue.

So here's here's the section. I really want to get to and that is the inscriptions on the cross.

John chapter 19 verse 19. It says Jesus of Nazareth the king of the Jews the inscription that was printed on his cross. John chapter 19 verse 19 says Jesus of Nazareth the king of the Jews. Matthew chapter point 7 verse 37 says this is Jesus the king of the Jews, no Nazareth.

Luke chapter point 8 verse 38. This is the king of the Jews. No Jesus, no Nazareth. Okay. Okay.

So there you go if we cannot get this account straight Then how can you trust anything in the Bible. So since the renditions of what's on the cross According to Osama are not identical with one another then that means you can't trust anything in the entire Bible.

Now the fact that one gives a longer version than another and The fact that I would if if he was here, I would I would say Osama. Why do you believe that? Each of the Gospels has to give an exhaustive account of everything it says.

I mean, why can't one have a shorter version than the long another one have a longer version one mentioned that there's Multiple languages used and one doesn't. Why is that a problem. Because that that's.

Well, well, for example throughout the Hadith When different people narrate the same events in Muhammad's life, they don't all do it in the exact same words. Does that mean it never happened? When you read the newspapers today You will find different reports on the same issues.

But They're not using the exact same words that mean the event didn't happen. I mean I can show you four different accounts of the inauguration of Barack Obama and Since they don't use the exact same words.

Does that mean that Barack Obama was not inaugurated? I mean the logics is completely missing, but you don't generally get a chance to challenge These kind of type of things and and that's what I would be doing is I'd be asking upon what basis do you assume?

That this is a requirement that it has to be the exact same words that Are you thinking that historical writing back then they had an mp3 recorder maybe a digicam, you know? And so you've got you know Is that what you're actually assuming and of course the question then becomes does Osama apply this and this is what I wanted to ask him.

I Wanted to take him to a number of texts in the Quran where You have parallels just like you have in the synoptic Gospels, and in fact, there's a excellent little website that's been put up www .qurantext .org and if you go to qurantext .org and Click on the parallels link.

You'll find this information and if you scroll about 75 of the way down You will see a comparison of surah 7 surah 15 and surah 38. This is a comparison of the discussions between Allah and Iblis of Satan and And Now there is a difference In looking at the Quran and looking at the New Testament when I talk about the New Testament writers.

We have four different writers Matthew Mark Luke and John they're writing to different audiences at different times and So it makes perfect sense that different people would use different language. They would use a different dialect.

They would use different vocabulary. Because we believe that men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. It's the men who spoke what they spoke was from God, but they used their own language.

God's big enough to use men in that way because he knows us better than we know ourselves. So We would have an answer as to why there would be understandable stylistic differences between the synoptic Gospels, but The Muslim believes that the Quran is not Muhammad's thinking about these things.

The Quran is is the very words of Allah written in eternity in Arabic. So when the Quran tells the same story Shouldn't it say it in the same way. Now I'm not saying that that would necessarily be the case I'm just using Osama's own reasoning.

His reasoning is you can't trust the Bible because of differences in How much of the inscription is recorded by each of the gospel writers since they are not absolutely identical to one another not contradictory To one another but since they're not absolutely identical then you can't trust the Bible it would follow biological necessity.

That every time the Quran tells the same story it should tell it how in the exact same words. Well, I just invite you to compare surah 712 with surah 38 76 for example and here you have Iblis speaking and in surah 712.

He said I am better than him. You created me of fire while you did create while him you did create of mud. But in 38 it says he said I am better than him. You create me of fire wilts him. You did create of clay.

And then we have an actual another example surah 15 33. He said I am NOT one to prostrate myself unto a mortal whom you have created out of potter's clay of black mud altered. And so the the surah 15 is somewhat of a compilation and summary of elements of 7 and 38 and then if you look carefully as well at The discussion in surah 7 I took the time to get my Quran out here let me let me read a section here that I think is is quite fascinating actually and We're gonna have to take just a few moments here to put the old Reading glasses on so we can see what in the world.

We're doing these days in in surah 7. Here's here's the story surah 712 what God said what prevented thee from bowing down when I commanded thee. He said I am better than he. Thou didst create me from fire and him from clay.

Allah said get thee down from this it is not for thee to be arrogant here get out for thou art the meanest of creatures. Art of the meanest of creatures. He said give me respite till the day they are raised up.

God said be thou among those who have respite. He said because thou hast thrown me out of the way lo I will lie and wait for them on thy straight way. Then I will assault them from before them and behind them from their right and their left.

Nor wilt thou find in most of them gratitude for thy mercies. Reminds you a little bit of the story of Job just just a little bit. God said get out from this disgraced and expelled if any of them follow thee hell will I fill with you all and so here it bleeds says I'm going to attack your servants and and God says get out from this disgraced and expelled by the Way just in passing.

That's the exact same word disgraced that is used of how Christians are supposed to feel as the result of Muslims engaging in jihad and Subjecting Christians that they feel disgraced in surah 9 just so you might know it's used of Satan and how he's supposed to feel.

It's not normally brought up in all the literature you read now compare that then with what we have in surah 38. So the angels prostrated themselves all of them together. This is to Adam by the way. Not so it bleeds.

He was haughty and became one of those who reject faith. God said oh he bleeds what prevents thee from prostrating myself to one whom I have created my hands. Art thou haughty or Art thou one of the high and mighty ones.

It bleeds that I am better than he thou does. Thou createst me from fire and him thou createst from clay. God said then get thee out from here for thou art rejected accursed and my curse shall be upon thee.

Till the day of judgment that wasn't in the preceding one. Iblis said oh my lord. Then give give me then respite till the day the dead are raised. God said. Respite then is granted thee till the day of the time appointed.

Iblis said then by thy power. I will put them all in the wrong. Except thy servants amongst them sincere and purified by thy grace. God said then it is just and fitting and I say what is just and fitting.

That I will certainly fill hell with those and with thee and those that follow thee every one. Now the story is the same in basic outline. But the story is not identical at all. You can demonstrate numerous variations between the two additions and deletions of words phrases.

Facts that are found in one and not found in the other by osama's own argument by his own argument. The quran cannot be the word of god. Now I invited osama to call. I said I would give him time we would discuss it.

Just like we did with matthew belisario last week. Not an islam, obviously. Um, but uh, he chose not to do that. He said he'd rather do debates. Well, the problem is I have yet to hear and it didn't happen when I had the debate with him.

I've yet to hear him actually admit. Or to allow meaningful cross-examination. And i'm not sure that he could do meaningful cross-examination because I would be asking these direct questions. And you have to answer direct questions, um directly.

And you'd have to have a real moderator who could put his foot down. Uh to uh to force him to answer these direct questions but that's something I Wanted to ask him, uh, and there were some others here.

I'd like to get to i'd like to try to keep things consistent. We have a caller here. It looks like a completely different subject that we'll get to. Uh, As we can here, so please try to be. Um. Patient but I think it'd be better to stick with these.

In uh in the order that we were that they came up in the debate. Stick with the islamic subject. Then if we need to change topics we can change topics. Uh, but let's uh, let's listen to a couple other things that osama said during the course of this particular Debate that I think is useful to look at and to respond to this is a really common one.

Uh, this is one that you'll hear. Uh the bigwigs using and osama repeats it as well. And he said this was jesus.

Okay. And paul said also in first book of corinthians chapter 7 verse 40. I think that I do. I think that I do have the spirit of god. You think? You think? I don't see. I don't say I think I see my wife.

No, I see my wife. She's sitting over there. Okay, I don't say I think I see her because if I say that that tells you my vision is poor. Okay, so you don't just say oh, I think I probably have the spirit of god.

No. You don't say that especially when every word you speak is considered Quran or revelation, okay. You just don't say things like that. Okay, so that's it.

You just don't say things like that. We are told by uh osama. Um, well, uh, if osama would read what paul was saying then maybe he would understand why he said. What he said, um, normally they focus upon first corinthians 7 25 where Paul says now concerning virgins.

I have no command of the lord. But I give an opinion as one who by the mercy of lord is trustworthy. They say see he has no command of the lord. This isn't scripture. But what paul is actually saying is if you read the context of preceding context.

When he had answered certain of the questions that were coming up in corinth. When there was a part of the gospels in the traditions of jesus that addressed these things words of jesus then he referred to them.

But there are things that jesus did not talk about and that are not a part of the gospel narratives. And so when he says I have no command from the lord what he means is there's nothing recorded in the stories and teachings of jesus that specifically address this subject and of course, that's obvious.

Uh, that's like saying that uh all muslims. Uh, there are some quran only muslims, but they can't answer a lot of these questions. Uh, there's all sorts of things addressed in the hadith that are not addressed in the quran.

Um, and that would be like saying well, but you can't look at any of that the fact of matter is the. The gospels are not meant to be everything we have we have a new testament. The holy spirit didn't just give us matthew mark luke and john.

We also have the rest of the new testament. There's a reason for that as the gospel goes out into the world it encounters these issues these issues come up. And therefore they are addressed in the pages of scripture.

And so paul is simply saying i'm unaware of anything that jesus taught on this subject. But as an apostle one who is trustworthy, here's what I have to say. And when he concludes that he's he repeats that by saying and I think that I have the spirit of god.

That is the the apostolic commandment that i've given to you. Uh comes from the spirit of god, I have the spirit of god. This is what how i've answered the question that you've asked concerning the subject of marriage and virgins and so on so forth.

And that's what's being said. It has nothing to do. With paul being uncertain as to whether he's entwelt by the holy spirit. This is manhandling the text. This is ignoring its context demonstrating a gross and abject ignorance.

Of what's actually going on in any of these particular? Texts the same thing came up a little bit later on. And this time it has something to do with yours truly and my debate with bart erman listen to this.

And he said this was jesus. Okay, go to right here right there. There you go.

Most interesting I don't want to sound rude, but uh, there's a manuscript called p73. I I saw this in uh, bart berman and james wide debate a purchase. Um. You know people were writing manuscripts and these manuscripts have uh, names p73, which is one of your manuscripts.

Ironically. It's called pop. Uh p73 is a manuscript that is half canonized half. Half of it is part of your bible today. And half of it is thrown out as heretic as infidels as false writings. One author one manuscript.

Half of it is in the bible. Half of it is outside the bible thrown out as a law.

And then a little bit later on uh, it came uh came up again. In these words watch an example of p73. Which is the most you know. Interesting one.

One guy writes a manuscript and half of it makes it to the bible. Half of it is thrown away. It's one author not multiple people writing one book. No, this is one guy writing a manuscript. Half of it is in the bible.

The other half is thrown out. Come on. Was he inspired by god? Was he inspired only by the first half and the other half he was drawn for something? I mean, come on. Be serious here. Okay.

Yeah, okay I imagine most folks in the audience were just sort of staring at him at this point going. What are you talking about? First of all, he's got the number wrong. It's p72 not p73. I showed a uh, uh picture of a particular page from p72 the end of first peter the beginning of second peter in my presentation and uh rich remembers seeing that uh rich had to keep dragging me away from p72 up in denver in 1993 because the security guards were getting a little bit nervous about uh, Uh the amount of time that I was spending with that particular manuscript, uh in the exhibition there, but be it as it may uh p72 what he's talking about.

Is that since I mentioned this bart ehrman brought up the fact that p72 contains non-canonical works within it and of course I responded by Uh pointing out that uh, there's codex sinaiticus for that matter.

Upon what basis do you assume? That everything that is found in a manuscript is supposed to be canonical in the first place. When people would copy books, uh, they would copy a wide range of things and uh, it's a long leap from the presence of the books together to the assumption of canonicity, but obviously those are things that Are far beyond osama's study.

Yeah, this gentleman has no concern about actually seriously studying what we believe. Uh being consistent in the use of scholarship or anything like that. He's just looking for stuff for mud to throw up on the wall and hope something sticks and so, uh.

As I as I heard this notice the terms ludicrous and ridiculous and come on people because he seems to be assuming. Did you catch that that statement toward the end. Was this guy? Inspired. Does he think this is one of the originals or something?

This is a a manuscript from the end of the second century 175 to 200 around that that time frame. It's just a christian. Uh, probably visiting another church. Maybe he's doing his traveling or something like that.

He visits another church and he hears Someone reading from a book. He's not heard from he finds out these the epistles of peter. And so he asked to make a copy. And he asks if they have anything else he can copy while he's doing this to bring back to his his church it's.

It's someone writing at the end of the second century. And what does that have to do with inspiration? Half of it's thrown out as a lie. No, it's not thrown out as a lie. I mean that's like in our in our fellowship.

If people didn't know better they would think that pilgrim's progress is the 28th book of the new testament for us. Because we quote it so often. No, we make a clear distinction between pilgrim's progress and the rest of the new testament uh, but I I certainly don't have any problem with someone quoting from it or reading from it and things like this and.

So I just don't even begin to understand What he's trying to say by half it's thrown out as a lie. What you mean? Not a lie, but as something that's non-canonical. Yes, they did recognize the non-canonical nature of those other books, but It's um frustrating.

Very frustrating to deal with mr. Osama one more and then we'll uh, we'll move on from here. Uh, check out this, uh, this assertion.

I'd like to review three verses are absurdly translated in english. Okay in very very ridiculous way. John, uh chapter 8 verse 58. He says before Abraham I am. Jesus said no he did not he said before Abraham I existed.

Okay, it was no more than jesus. Uh, no more than jesus saying before Abraham. I existed or I was an existing being god almighty's I am in exodus chapter 3 was rather telling moses when he asked him when he asked god almighty about himself To and to describe himself.

God almighty then told moses Not to go there not to worry himself to concern himself. He told him I am who I am. Just just leave it at that when jesus said before Abraham. I was he did not say before Abraham.

I am. The sentence is grammatically wrong and does not add up nor does it make any sense for the following reasons. Jesus. If he said that I am And not I was then he should have said before adam adam not abraham.

I am. Okay. Since there were hundreds of millions of years of humanity before abraham and adam Jesus sentence clearly indicated that jesus existed before ever. Jesus said before abraham existed on earth.

I also existed even before him. That's all jesus said. Okay. Jesus was using jeremiah in the old testament chapter one verse five in the old testament Where the person said that prophet jeremiah was a prophet.

Uh, even before he was born in his mother's womb and before he ever existed on earth. Point number two here. Jesus is quickly. I apologize. It's deviating but it is really since you claim jesus god Jesus being the word.

Okay. He was not in john chapter one.

All right, he goes on to again demonstrate The fact that man cannot read anything in context. It's absolutely incredible even his own stuff. He doesn't seem to read in context, but uh, so so let's let's see, um Osama to my knowledge cannot read a word of greek and yet he Pretends to stand there and talk about the grammar.

He must have pulled off some unitarian jehovah's witness site or something like that I would assume uh, but he is of course in error about that and that's why he would Probably not debate that subject with me because he knows that he would have to actually answer questions, uh relevant to those issues um.

And then he then he says well, he sort of said adam. Except that the context was about. Um, let me think here. Oh abraham. It was about abraham. And the jews had brought up abraham and jesus says abraham rejoice see my day rejoice.

He saw and was glad and they go. What do you mean abraham? The prophets have died who do you make us all about to be before abraham was I am ago I me is the term and of course if he was to do any kind of serious exegesis, which I have never Heard osama do on anything.

But especially the new testament, uh, then he would know that the gospel of john uses that phrase in very important text. Not only in 858. But in john 18 5 through 6 when jesus says I go I made the soldiers fall back upon the ground.

I would love to hear what his explanation of that is um, and Of course in john 13 19 He utilizes the same text quoting from I believe isaiah 43 10 the greek septuagint identifying himself as the I am.

He says to all muslims who might be listening today in john 8 24 unless you believe that I am you will die in your sins. Uh, very very important stuff, but not handled with with any meaningful Eloquence by mr. Osama, so Just some of the things that I heard that are thrown out there that I felt would be useful In responding to here on the program today.

The Quran’s Parallel Passages and the Synoptic Gospels

We're going to take our break and then come back with our phone callers. We'll be right back.

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Justification, the Elect, and Romans 8

Thank you, and welcome back to the dividing line. Just reminder. We will be.

Discussing uh, zainab bint jash on the next program on thursday her relevance to um. Well all sorts of things the giving of the quran the issue of adoption in islamic societies. All go back to that particular subject.

It is an interesting one one of the few places where you can get into history. Uh in dealing with what the quran is touching upon most of the quran just sort of is out there. And Contextless unlike the new testament.

So, uh, we will be doing that on thursday also, I should be getting a link up fairly quickly to uh the debate, uh with dan barker in september up in the portland area. The subject of that will be on the uniqueness of jesus.

Uh, of course, mr. Barker holds the idea that the um, the Jesus myth was uh cut out of the same fabric as all the other myths the uh, the mithras and osiris and dionysus and uh, All the rest that kind of stuff and so that'll be an excellent opportunity to demonstrate that that argument Is one of the most bogus arguments mankind's ever come up with and demonstrates that anyone using it just simply isn't thinking.

Logically in any way shape or form or fairly normally is the issue at that point. So we'll be getting uh that that up and certainly looking forward to all the stuff we're gonna be doing in australia. Hopefully be able to put up something before I leave as to the specifics for those of you down under.

And I must confess I am looking forward to getting 10 days out of the phoenix heat. Uh to go to some place where it's winter. Of course I have to travel 14 hours on a plane to get there but hey, that's uh, neither here nor there uh, let's uh.

Take let's go to the phones and talk with brother peter. Hello brother peter. Hi, um, I had a question about your view. All right. It's my understanding that you believe yes. Well, will be there for well, that's an awesome example of eisegesis.

I I appreciate the presentation of it because when you want to talk about justification it would seem That you would go to the texts in the bible that specifically address justification rather than going to other texts.

Specifically warning passages and things like that make assumptions based upon that mainly man-centered assumptions rather than god-centered assumptions. And then read it back into the text, which is exactly what the roman catholic church has done.

Uh in its definitions, uh, especially on this subject it would seem to me That if you want to discuss justification, why not go to the texts that discuss justification first? Determine what the inspired text says there and then make application elsewhere isn't.

Isn't that in fact what you do because i'm not sure why this information was was volunteered, but Um, you are not an orthodox roman catholic. You're a seti vacan uh seti vacantist. Aren't you not? I would I would the pope would the pope consider you to be a true catholic?

No, but we can prove that he's not a real catholic. Okay, so. So but you would do that by going to particular texts. But before I get to that, it's interesting that you you're diverting here from the no i'm not i'm demonstrating that you're using two different standards because I would imagine that any arguments you would use to defend your Rebellion against the bishop of rome and your identification of him as a false one would involve first going to texts that would Specifically address the issue, but you don't do that here.

And so what i'm saying is it seems to me that you're being inconsistent. I could quote passages in the bible I've written a book on this. Oh, that's nice. And The bible itself says that in james chapter two.