Dr. Mason’s The Woke Church’s Misrepresentation, Open Phones

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Fine, I don't see anything up there, but it ain't ain't working again, but I think we're started and Welcome to the program today 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is the phone number.

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We're gonna take some calls today But I wanted to start off With you know when you

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I I Started reading dr. Eric Mason's woke church

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It's not a part of my doctoral studies I assure you it is a distraction there from but Necessary in this this day and time to keep up with such things and I was reading it while writing.

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In other words, I was listening to it. I converted it to mp3 from My Kindle and So I'm listening along and I'm formulating some thoughts and and trying to you know

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Identify where you know, there are things to be discussed the things like that and then get into a section

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It's not a long book get into a section on things that we should lament and Well, let me just read you this section

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According to my Kindle reader here, which that's the problem with Kindle Mine may say page 105 of 192

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But that doesn't necessarily mean that yours is gonna say page 105 192, which is somewhat of a problem but anyway

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Let me see where I want to start here We in the West seem to have what

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I call selective justice justice syndrome We select comfortable forms of justice to address even then we don't view it as central to the mission of God Solomon administered justice between the women fighting over the baby

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In other words, he judged Western Christianity must do so in the area of racial injustice

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My grief comes from the battle fatigue of trying to convince people who have some of the greatest

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Theological libraries and access to ancient manuscripts yet. Don't see justice as a central

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Bible doctrine. I stopped there just for a moment One of the things

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I certainly see in this book is there is an assumption Of what justice is

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That includes all sorts of non -biblical categories Such as equality of economic outcome and and things like this and it's just It's just allowed to be vague enough to allow people to read that kind of stuff in that way

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You don't have to actually defend that biblically It it runs throughout the narrative of what

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I've read so far, but then I then I encountered this In a recent conversation on Twitter three black

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Christian leaders and I were accused of dividing The Lord's table by talking about race

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I mean by by talking about race and black dignity We were called to ascribe to color blindness

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While that might be a comfortable position for some color blindness denies God's promise to Abraham that in you all the nations shall be blessed

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It denies the father's promise to the son that I will make you a light for the nation's it denies the

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Spirit's promise to us That all the peoples will praise God it denies Christ great commission to disciple the nations

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It denies the Spirit's work to prepare us for a multi -ethnic table in Acts 10 The Lord prepares Peter with a vision known to preach to Gentiles false to accept them as clean equals in Christ Colorblind theology denies one of the main tenants of historic

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Christian faith as outlined in the Apostles Creed I believe in a holy Catholic Church Catholicity means precisely the opposite of color blindness

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Celebrating the inclusion of all ethnicities in Christ colorblind theology denies Christ's power to heal racial divisions disparities and injustices

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By ignoring their ongoing impact colorblind theology undermines unity in the church are refusing to acknowledge significant ethnic differences or address significant problems

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Now you all may recall What he's talking about and what is stunning is

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How disconnected from reality this published version of it actually is Some of us of course

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Keep records and What had actually taken place in the real world

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There was discussion of white spaces and black spaces in the church on Twitter Many of us are not accustomed this terminology

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Most of us have Do not hold a belief that we are Trying to create have created seek to create have inadvertently created quote -unquote white spaces

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You have to have a certain lens on You have to have a certain mindset already going to be able to create the terminology such as white spaces and black spaces because I Have Wonderful Hispanic friends,

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I've never heard them talking about white spaces and Chicano spaces I Have black friends and that was not terminology that they would use either

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I have Chinese friends Now they don't know use it either There is a very

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Specific American it's an America centric thing That that's why this

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I travel globally just got back from traveling globally and this is

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This is not the kind of mindset that people have outside the United States Western call it's it's infiltrating

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Western culture. Thanks to our exporting it But this idea of white spaces black spaces all the rest of stuff.

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It requires a real strong lens For you to to function and to see it in this way so I Had put together a meme and I'm going to bring it up here

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Because I think people need to need to see this oh Great Just you know just for documentation purposes here

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This is the meme that I posted and Put on Facebook and on and link to it on on Twitter as well.

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And I had already Said this on Twitter, but when the body gathers around the

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Lord's table, there is only one space The Savior space the Redeemer space the mediator space anyone who drags color or ethnicity into that space is completely missing the point and the blessing

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One space one body where the hashtags I use so You've all heard me go deeply into a number of Specific texts in Scripture that address this subject that specifically assert

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That there is no ethnicity in the renewal

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That we experience by the power of the Holy Spirit there is no Differentiation between ethnicities and the imputation of the righteousness of Christ.

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There is no basis for the creation of colored spaces

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In the body of Christ that is divisive. It is wrong. It is unbiblical. It's anti -biblical

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It's a false teaching needs to be identified as a false teaching doesn't matter how popular it is Doesn't matter how many people at t4g believe it.

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It doesn't matter how much the gospel coalition pushes it. It remains a horrifically false divisive dangerous teaching so I put this out and the response the initial response

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Evidently, dr. Mason was referring to himself and maybe Kyle James Howard as The three because I very easily in just a few moments

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Pulled up a Bunch of material that I had saved

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One came from Anthony Bradley Here's an example of some unhelpful mainline quote colorblind

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Close quote white privilege theology colorblind white privilege theology, and it's my tweet

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When the body gathers around the Lord's table There's only one space the Savior space the Redeemer space the meteor space anyone who drags color or ethnicity

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Into that space is completely missing a point and the blessing. So this is colorblind white privilege theology thick thick lenses here very thick lenses

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The beauty of the Lord's table on this side of the eschaton is celebrating its multi -ethnic victory over death sin and the devil

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Explicitly multi -ethnic discourse should be encouraged revelation 7 -9. Well, how is recognizing

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That God saves men from every tribe tongue people a nation in any way relevant in any way relevant

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To what my meme said, where is the biblical evidence?

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Where's where? Revelation 7 -9 now we talked about this because we've we've had people Bring this up before I'm not gonna spend a lot of time because I do want to get to your phone calls

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But you know when you find yourself being misrepresented horrifically in a newly published book that's being commended and promoted at Conferences and has well -known people writing the forewords even though this book contains a specific apologetic for segregational black churches

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It defends it says it's good. It's right. It's proper to have simply black churches.

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Just get away from everybody else Same people would say if you had white churches like that, it'd be horrible.

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But hey, you know and you got those lenses on no No equal scales.

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No, no, no. No, we just did it's no but anyway Revelation 7 -9 after these things

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I looked and behold a great multitude Which no one could count from every tribe and all from every nation all tribes and peoples and tongues

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Standing before the throne before the lamb clothed in white robes and palm branches were in their hands and They cry out with a loud voice saying salvation to our

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God who sits on the throne and to the lamb How is that in any way shape or form on on any exegetical grounds?

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supportive of the idea That we should have white and black spaces in the ordinances of the church that we should have white and black experience in the

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Lord's Supper Nothing, there's nothing there and dr. Bradley knows it

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He well knows it. I mean you you just you just throw this stuff out there knowing you're never really gonna have to defend it

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No one is denying I mean Revelation chapter 5 men from your tribe tongue people a nation

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Yeah brought together into one body one body same righteousness same spirit one body one body at the supper

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No divisions I'll stand by that. I'll defend that and there isn't anybody who can possibly

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Refute that assertion from the New Testament text is impossible You can't not Substantiate the idea that the apostles of the

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New Testament believed they would be proper to have white and black spaces It would have been the end of the early church completely

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And I've never seen anybody even try to poke a hole in that statement. I don't even try they just let's just We can't argue the facts on this one.

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So let's attack him on something else. That's That's the Brad Mason way of doing things and everybody else.

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So Revelation 7 9 doesn't substantiate that and then a little bit lower in the same thread and This is from the 12th of May by the way,

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I posted that meme on the 11th of May It's very easy. Dr. Bradley again

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It's very easy for white people to not drag color into the sacraments blacks in the

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American experience see, this is These these brothers don't see how absolutely

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America centric they are Dr. Mason, dr. Bradley, I mean

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Their experience in the United States gets to determine everything. Well their

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Experience in light of their ancestors in in America blacks in the

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American experience to have that luxury or Privilege colorblind theology denies the reality of what this sacrament means for people of color

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We must drag color into the means of grace its survival Wow That is amazing.

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I mentioned this then The that is if you don't see how massively foundationally wrong that is on the basic gospel level of how we are made right before God the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ that the

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Simple direct teaching of scripture as to how the unity of the body exists. I don't I don't know what to say to you

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I mean that is dangerous and here and then and then

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Right around that same time Dr. Eric Mason the author of the woke

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Church We need a modern -day ecumenical council on race and justice

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We need canons and synods and creeds on this come to Philly and we can call it the Council of Philadelphia limited to 300 key men and women pastors and Scholarly secretaries.

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I don't know what a scholarly secretary is either Rebuke the heretics. That'd be me and affirm the sound

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There was the suggestion so an ecumenical council well, good luck on that one there haven't been any for a millennium, but hey

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Nor could there be Ecumenical Council on race and justice at the

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Council the Council of Philadelphia called to identify as heretics those of us who say that there is no ethnicity in the

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Salvation wrought by Jesus Christ. There is no place in the Lord's Supper for the insertion of ethnicity and colored spaces

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But we're the heretics now. We're the heretics So I guess that would be the three would be

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Anthony Bradley Kyle J Howard and Eric Mason And so now in his book with forward by dr.

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J. Ligon Duncan We have this Gross misrepresentation and then you have this wildly inaccurate

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Description of what quote -unquote colorblind theology is I don't even know

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While that might be a comfortable position for some colorblindness Colorblindness denies

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God's promise to Abraham that in you all the nation shall be blessed. That's a misrepresentation That's a misrepresentation has nothing to do with it nothing to do with it

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How do you get away with this kind of stuff? Is it just simply the repetition of it enough times people just end up believing you remember?

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this is the same brother who stood at t4g and Talked about black people who aren't a part of their movement as being

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Anglo on the inside Everybody got exactly what he meant by that Everybody understood it.

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That's a problem to me. That's that there's that and that's not good There is nothing in asserting that there is one body in Christ and That there is one righteousness of Christ and that there is one spirit that indwells the body and that therefore there is no division

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Based upon ethnicity at the Lord's Supper has nothing to do with God's promise to Abraham nothing zero zero

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Error number one it denies the father's promise to the son that I will also make you a life a nation Error number two has nothing to do with it whatsoever.

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Does it no There is nothing in in recognizing the oneness of the body

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That has anything to do with the fact that God saves men from every tribe tongue people a nation.

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That is complete disconnect It denies spirit promise to us that all the peoples will praise

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God. No, it doesn't that's three errors It denies Christ Great Commission disciple of nations. No, it doesn't four errors. It denies the spirits work to Paris for a multi -ethnic table

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No, it doesn't five errors Acts 10 six errors Colorblind theology denies one of the main tenets of the historic

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Christian faith as outlined Apostles Creed I believe in the Holy Catholic Church. No, it doesn't it's just the opposite.

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It's what you're doing that denies that so Yeah, that's that I ran into this right at the end of my ride and so I was like Well, I know how we're gonna be starting to program off today

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Wow put into print You know, it's one thing Obviously, you know, I don't know about you, but from my perspective

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Something that is tweeted does not have the weight and Gravity of something that is published as a book and so it's one thing for this

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You know 13 May 2018, dr. Eric Mason, we need a modern -day ecumenical council on race and justice

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We need cannons and synods and creeds by the way cannons and synods

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I'm sure what he was talking about on this come to Philly and we can call it the Council of Philadelphia limit to 300 key men and women pastors and scholarly secretaries

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Rebuke the heretics and affirm the sound okay, that's a that's a tweet and You know, it's we do live in a day where where the president tweets his policy that's odd But when you put it into print when you actually

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Publish it that Changes everything and so that's why I felt

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I needed to Address this particular issue and point out the fundamental error and Misrepresentation that is found there and now will

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I find more later on the book? It's possible. I hope to get to the rest of the book

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I Don't know maybe tomorrow, but definitely I've got a long ride planned on Saturday and Have another book.

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I want to get to but it's a fairly short book. So Hopefully get both of them done In that fashion and we'll see if there's anything

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Anything more Do I read anything more on this

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Yeah, this was all in lament number six if you want to look it up I would say it

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Micah has a robust but robust theology of justice being a weightier matter of scripture as well as central

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Bible doctrine His theological eye was able to scope the scriptures and apply justice hermeneutics not in competition with the gospel of generation

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But as an outworking of it We grieve because white Christian leaders who are able to see handy Adi's dangling participles

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Nephile stems in Hebrew and Eris passives and can excavate Archaeological finds of Hittite culture and frame the unknown alphabet are unable to see racism and injustice

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This is lament worthy. Now what that means is we get to define what racism and justice is

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We get to define the categories and if you don't just even agree with us, then you're just you're part of the problem That's that's that's what this is that's what this is and I lament that I I lament lament that So there you go.

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I I wanted to address that and Hopefully, you know, who knows maybe there will be some more

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In the rest of the book, I don't I don't know But we will we will see 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1

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I Guess I need to be able to hear folks Your phone calls for the rest of time on the program today and Hmm, okay

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Let's talk with Brock. Hi Brock Hey, dr. White Yes, sir.

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Hey, I got a question About Romans 1 So just kind of thinking about Presuppositionalism and I know the claim is there's no such thing as atheist because Everyone knows

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God But could you just talk a little bit of how we? reconcile the idea that people truly

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Seem to believe that there is no God but with what the scriptures say that they know

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God exists well, obviously The point is from Romans chapter 1 that they know that God exists and they suppress that knowledge and their atheism is their mechanism of suppression so I certainly have had enough experience with atheists to know that very very few of them even try for some level of Consistency in their in their rejection of God's existence but the

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The biblical point is they have to borrow from God's creation to be able to even make the the arguments that they do and They cannot make a consistent argument.

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That is the the point of verse 20 so that they are on apologators.

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They do not have Anapologetic that is a consistent they have an argument. They certainly make arguments

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But it has been observed by many of us. Who was it that That made the observation.

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I think it was Douglas Wilson made the observation That There are two things that an atheist is certain of that God does not exist and that he hates him

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And so it is that inconsistency That is

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I think something that is relevant to this particular point, but Yeah, when you if what you're saying is there is no true atheist in the sense that God has made sure that anyone who bears the

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Imago Dei has sufficient testimony To know and that they therefore suppress

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Yes, that suppression can take the form of religion that suppression can take the form of apathy drugs just simply

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Living your life or it can be Full -on atheism, but that's still that's still a mechanism of suppression

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Okay. Thank you so much. Dr. White. I really appreciate your ministry. Alrighty. Thank you very much Brock God bless.

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All right eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

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Let's talk with John. Hi, John Hey, Dr. White What is it by the way before you go?

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What is what's going on on Twitter with these weird -looking faces? Do you know do you know anything about John cuz

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I I just just had somebody show up on my Twitter feed and I Don't This NPC, so I don't even know what it is.

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I guess there's something going on I guess Twitter has banned like 15 ,000 people or something like that And now now it's just it's just appeared on on my thing too.

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And this is this is weird It's yeah. I have no idea. Well, okay.

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All right, that's not not what you called in about anyways, but go ahead. Sorry about that Yeah I'm the guy that Wife is

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Roman Catholic and has gone Roman Catholic But it's funny

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I was actually at that time a few months ago calling in I was a Church of Christ there But now

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I do not agree with that anymore. So I left the church and I've found a Reformed Baptist Church I'm attending now.

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Okay, which is which is awesome Except except you're in California. So I'm not you know, anybody in California.

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We need to be praying for Because my church looks pretty pretty good where I'm at, but um, so now

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I really get it on That's right. I can't change my wife's mind things like that.

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I think that's got to do So I think I'm not gonna really argue with her anymore Necessarily unless you know conversation leans that way but right now it's a heat topic but so right now we have a one -year -old daughter and my wife takes her

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Saturday Mass and then Should be able to take her to my church, but my wife wants nothing to do with their

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Reformed Baptist Church But well now I don't Let me ask

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I I don't remember what her background was Sure, she grew up Roman Catholic when we got married.

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I baptized her into the Church of Christ But after our baby came her Catholic roots called her back.

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Oh, and she wanted to get my daughter baptized Okay. All right. Yeah But right now she wants to get her baptized again, and she doesn't want to come with me to my

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Reformed Baptist Church, but I Think if I don't let her this huge tension is going to be in our marriage, but I think it might be

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Unwise and maybe like a spiritual leader blunder on my part to allow her to baptize their daughter into the

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Roman Catholic Church I Wondering if you have any thoughts on that. Well, I thought you had used the term

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Rebaptize her has so that so the baby has not been baptized No, the baby hasn't been baptized at all

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Okay. All right Well Yeah, you're obviously in a situation that is less than ideal as as far as that is concerned and The the child is is not going to be

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Eternally saved or damned by either action one way or the other obviously

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That kind of action of patal baptism in Roman Catholicism and of course some my

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Reformed brethren disagree with me on this but I Did a debate with Douglas Wilson a number of years ago on this very issue

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There there are some that would believe that even a Roman baptism places one in some relationship to the

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New Covenant and hence You evangelize them by grabbing them by their baptism.

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I obviously argued rather strenuously that a any Action that calls itself

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Christian baptism that is done in the absence of the Christian gospel itself

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Cannot be called Christian baptism it is it is the gospel that defines the ordinances of the church not the other way around and therefore any

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Baptism it can be done in the name of the Father Son Holy Spirit But if you don't know who the Father Son Holy Spirit are if you are rejecting the gospel that is that is in and of itself triune in its nature

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That baptism is merely an external formality it does not have any validity in and of itself because it is not

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Christian baptism because it is a part of something that's separate from the gospel itself and so, yeah, you're obviously in a in a

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Very difficult situation here. It sounds like fairly newly married and the difficulty for you

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Is that you're the one? Well, you've both changed but what's interesting here is on the key issue of The supremacy and sovereignty of grace the deadness of man and sin

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The power of God to be able to save in of himself She hasn't changed you have because the

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Church of Christ and Rome are Absolutely in lockstep in regards to man's natural abilities they neither one of them believes that That grace in and of itself is sufficient.

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There has to be something else. That's where the problem lies and So from her perspective, you're the ones changed not her

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And yeah, and that causes that obviously puts you in a even more difficult situation

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Obviously, I I do not want You know, if if if it is at all possible to keep your marriage together and not

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Have that happen that is the best thing in in the world but my suggestion would be you're probably looking at this from We're coming at it backwards

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The the real the real issues aren't about the baptism of the child.

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The real issues are How do you? In a a proper way

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Lead your family in with a division that exists and do so in such a fashion that Regularly communicates to your wife

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The Beauty and supremacy of grace so as to reveal to her the

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Emptiness of the penitential system of Rome and the the beauty of having true peace with God that's that's the real issue and That Once you get past even the baptism issue

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Then there's give you church attendance issue and there's going to be all sorts of other things that that are always going to be coming back to the very same thing if if you can

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Exercise appropriate Parental control in regards to your child's religious upbringing

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That's great we live in a day where Unfortunately The breakup of marriage is so common that people consider it a easy and viable alternative and that is

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And then in that situation then not only do you lose the opportunity of positive of major positive influence but There's all sorts of other negative things to go along with that.

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So You know, my my advice is don't baptize her.

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But my my greater advice is you've you've got to be praying to find a way to Establish a some level of spiritual consistency within the home and because of the developments that have taken place in both of your lives that's a really complicated and difficult situation and your connection is really weird either that or the

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The governmental authorities are making noise while they're listening into our conversation

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Yeah, I think I think my only game plan is to just love her and show her grace and and love like Jesus has shown to me

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But yeah, I know Yes, it's almost it's practically a deal -breaker for her where she said to me quite a few times.

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She kind of wants to leave me Well, let's let's hope and pray that's not the case and let's hope and pray that There will be something that will reveal to her her need of True and lasting peace first of all with with God herself and that the sacraments of Rome will never

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Ever be able to provide those things so when you when you said you're not going to argue with her,

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I suppose there is a level of Unnecessary argumentation that becomes a regular thing, but then there also has to be a regular readiness to make application and to make sure that she understands what the real issues are because not a lot of Roman Catholics do and if if she left for the

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Church of Christ She would be leaving for the wrong reasons Fundamentally, so yeah, it's complicated situation.

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Very very complicated situation. Yeah. Thank you so much for your words, though I think that lines up with what

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I kind of been had been thinking and hearing Don't baptize her. Well, there'd be a much better.

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There'd be a much much better situation is if the if local elders Who could know you and know her and know the situation, you know,

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I'm just hearing one side over a phone line So often it's the look in the eye.

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It's the it's the the personal encounter that can make all the difference in the world. So Yeah, make sure that the folks at at the

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Reformed Baptist Church. You're attending. No know what's going on and maybe they can be of Better assistance than I can.

36:38

Yeah. Thank you so much for everything. Dr. White. All right. Thank you. God bless 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 let's talk with Tim.

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Hi Tim Hi, Dr. White long time listener first -time caller here.

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All righty Couple subjects we could dive into but the main one that I wanted to ask you about was in the

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Institute and Calvin's Institute section 2 5 3 He says the perseverance itself is indeed also a gift of God while he does not be still on all

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Indiscriminately, but in parts to whom he pleases and then he kind of goes on a little bit so one of the things that I've been trying to kind of rustle through with the idea of You know the reformed theology and a lot of your great teachings on Calvinism is in a sense

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It almost seems like that God Does not desire all to be saved

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And the implication of that is then that God does not love all Equally or love all the same.

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So how would you answer that objection to see like can you? appreciate the objection that God what might be seen as monstrous or Horrendous in some sense if he does not desire all equally be saved and thus provide an equal opportunity for each person to be saved or that Jesus's sacrifice was not for all it was just for the elect

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Well, those are our standard objections, but they are standard objections based upon some

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I think pretty obvious Misconceptions and misunderstandings of both what's being said as well as what true justice would would involve

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The assumption being made first of all is that if God loves anyone

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That he has to love everyone in the exact same way What's interesting is that we as human beings are able to?

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Love in many different ways. We are able to when I obey

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Traffic laws and don't run red lights. I'm actually showing love for other people Because I'm not endangering their lives just simply to so that I can get to the restaurant faster

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But that's not the same kind of love that I have For my wife or my children or my grandchildren.

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I have a different kind of love for my pets I I love my pets but I both of both our current pets are getting older and it has

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Historically always been my job when that day comes. I'm the one that's got to go take them to the vet and have them put down I'm not gonna do that with my wife.

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So there's a different kind of love that is there and Yeah, very much so so We obviously as human beings have the capacity to engage in differentiation in our love

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I am to love my wife and I am NOT to love anybody else's wife.

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And so even the command to love all obviously has Restrictions and understandings that are a part of that What's fascinating is mankind for some reason and many people even in the

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Christian Church have the idea That by saying God is love

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We as creatures have a capacity and ability that God himself does not have That God cannot have the special love.

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He showed for example for the people of Israel and part of this comes from the fact that we live in a day when when the

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Tanakh the Old Testament scriptures are Secondary for most people they're they're not a primary reading source for most people today.

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And so the the very clear reality of The special love that God has for his elect people

40:30

Israel in the Old Testament and then that elect people Being made up of every tribe tongue people a nation as the

40:38

New Covenant is preached throughout the world that Redemptive love is different than the love that God shows in the fact that for example

40:51

God showed love in the book of Jonah when he withheld the imminent judgment upon the city of Nineveh now that judgment eventually did come but there is a

41:02

Aspect of love that shows itself as mercy that shows itself as patience

41:10

In that situation God shows love toward his in the entirety of his creation by having his son to shine and the rain to fall and and Upholding all of of creation.

41:23

So There are different kinds of divine love. And so if what you're saying is well, but God only gives

41:30

Redemptive love to certain people. Well, yes, that's exactly what Ephesians chapter 1 says

41:36

That's exactly what the concept of election is. That's exactly what Jesus said.

41:42

He's in the synagogue and Capernaum, I'm now going to say Capernaum properly now that I've been there but They're in the synagogue in in Capernaum Not very far from the the

41:56

Sea of Galilee. He's teaching the people and what does he do? He he has people who rode across the lake

42:03

To see him and he says you're seeking me not because you saw the signs understood them But because your bellies were filled you are unbelievers.

42:10

You've seen me, but you you don't believe and it is It is only the ones that the father draws to me who will receive eternal life that that was his teaching

42:20

This was right. This this is this is straightforward teaching It's it's right there and and people don't like it because they've embraced the idea that salvation has to be a

42:35

Dole doubt on a Basis of equality everybody has to have an equal chance as if anyone is owed a chance in the first place

42:45

And that's the problem Illustration I've used for many years is that if the governor of a a state

42:54

Who has the authority to do so pardons a person on death row? Other people will always come along and say we need to pardon everybody else, but no he doesn't

43:05

Because the the governor is under no Compulsion to pardon anyone he has that sovereign freedom to do so And he can pardon one person or he can pardon the whole lot or he can pardon

43:18

Ten out of a hundred or fifty out of a hundred. It's totally up to the governor And so what what mankind is saying is if if you save one you have to save all and God says no,

43:32

I will save for my own purposes in my own glory And I'm not under obligation to save any at all, but I will do so In fact as I promised to Abram your descendants shall be as the sand of the sea and so there is going to be a great multitude as Described in the book of Revelation who will receive salvation, but they do so by God's God's choice and not by man's choice and Anyone who does not receive that salvation will not receive injustice.

44:04

They will receive justice there is a difference people don't understand this but there is a difference between justice and mercy and Everyone will receive either justice or Mercy, no one gets injustice

44:22

That's that's vitally important to to keep in mind in in the biblical scheme of things.

44:28

And so yes, I I understand the the objections that people have and they're based upon Ignoring major elements of biblical revelation.

44:39

They make mincemeat out of the Old Testament. They make mincemeat out of God's relationship to Israel They they are based upon insertion of external concepts regarding autonomous free will and all sorts of other categories like this and a denial to God of the ability to have redemptive love over against common grace all of that plays into it and Is something we need to respond to very regularly and have done so yet once again today

45:13

Well, I appreciate it if if I may make one comment which may open a can of worms and you can say we're not going

45:19

Back to that. I'm not doing it, but I've been wanting to get Your your insight on this going back to the

45:26

Yasir Qadhi Debacle and not not your conversation, but the stuff that followed for what eight months after that were you doing shows for about eight months?

45:36

Responding to Brandon house and a number of other people that were going on Brandon house is still doing his thing about that.

45:43

But I'm okay. I am I and most of the same people ignore him. So Right, right. I think one thing that was missed in that and a lot of your

45:52

Talking back and forth and a lot of his Talking back and forth was and I think this question will hopefully clear it up So I'll ask it and then and I can get off and we can move on if Yasir Qadhi got a chance to Influence all of our government somehow and they agreed to be under his teaching because in Islam as I understand it.

46:15

It's not a presentation of a gospel where something kind of accepts it It's more of okay, you're doing this and now we kind of teach its submission.

46:23

That's what I saw Islam means submission So yeah, right And so there's now there's principles and Yasir Qadhi would be here

46:28

So if Yasir Qadhi influenced our government in that way, would that be a good thing or a bad thing for the

46:33

United States? I'm I'm not sure what you mean that this didn't come up because I there wasn't a

46:42

It wasn't a part of the discussion. So I don't know why it would have come up but obviously,

46:48

I I do not believe that the promotion of any concept of Islamic supremacy is going to be

46:57

Good for the church and if it's not good for the church, it's not going to be good for the nation now

47:04

What we're facing today really that that muddies the waters just a little bit is the fact that we have a

47:18

Governmental entity that is secularizing and So you could

47:26

Depersonalize that and step back a moment and say Well, what's better for a government to be influenced by someone who believes that there is a

47:34

God who has revealed himself and that there are norms or by an entire system that says that we're just all a cosmic accident and you end up with Transgendered athletes winning all the women's competitions.

47:48

I mean You could argue that at least at the height of Islamic society in the past You didn't have the kind of abject absurdity that we're experiencing today so if you took that part out and just simply said well what's better general theistic influences on government or Evolutionary secular

48:16

Influences upon government obviously any general theistic system is going to be better than none

48:22

So you could you could put together a list I suppose in light of that and from my perspective at least in a

48:32

Theistic system where God has spoken There is now a basis for a revelation from God that is called law and that that law would then help to Hold a society together.

48:44

One of my great concerns is we're heading for anarchy Because there's there's no basis for law or common

48:52

Common even a definition of common good in Society when you really think through where secularism takes you because we live in a random universe that has no purpose.

49:02

So they're Everything just simply becomes an exercise of power You don't have and you can't check power in Historic not in current wahhabi, but in historic

49:16

Sunni Jurisprudence there were They're developed over time

49:24

Checks and balances there had to you couldn't you couldn't have a government that didn't even the the jihadi spirit was constrained by rules and Now obviously,

49:35

I don't think that the Islamic system represents God and therefore it's not consistent Therefore I can't hold up and that's why it fell apart.

49:41

But the point is just generally You certainly can make an argument that a general theistic

49:49

Influence is going to at least be in a sense better than The absolutely dead absolute degradation that we're seeing today coming from secularism secularism is is a faster -working poison than a false theism

50:06

We want the true God to be proclaimed. We want his truth to be proclaimed but you were sort of putting it in a nebulous what -if situation that at least requires

50:18

That I thought you did a fantastic job of working through the different biblical text, you know kind of dismantling the idea that it was some sort of liberal interfaith dialogue

50:30

I mean, I was just complete 100 % misunderstanding on their part and I didn't think they addressed it

50:36

And when I said they had it's been the collective, you know your opposition in that But but I you know, since I'm speaking to you and you know

50:43

Communicated a little bit with them that I thought the one point that was missed and you covered it but I don't think you covered it in a way that was as Thorough as you just did in those few minutes.

50:54

And so again, you could disagree with me there but for my following was the ideology that went with somebody like Yasir Qadhi and how it might be seen as Influential or you promoting some some of his ideas and so they were making a very broad connection between Dr.

51:12

White is giving Yasir Qadhi a platform Everything associated with that with Yasir Qadhi is terrible.

51:18

And so therefore dr. White shouldn't do this Yeah, partly theology and partly ideology political ideology.

51:25

All right, that was that so your distinction was great. Okay. I appreciate it Thank you so much. All right. Thanks Tim. Thanks for your call

51:32

Hey, let's stick with these how's that sound? Okay, and let's talk with Jonathan.

51:39

Hi Jonathan Hi, oh my god, don't don't drop that phone while you're grabbing it real quick Yeah, so I have a question regarding Ephesians chapter 3 verses 4 through 6

51:58

And this is what it says when you read this You can perceive in my insight into the mystery of Christ Which was not made known to the sons of men and other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy

52:12

Apostles and prophets by the Spirit this mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs members of the same body and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus do the gospel so Upon reading that wouldn't that mean that there is?

52:30

Only been is and will be only one group or God's elect or you could say

52:35

Israel Or would I be reading that wrong? Uh Well, okay if if if if the question is to be specific that the taught ethnic

52:52

Gentiles are simply the nation's so So specifically the the nations are fellow heirs and Fellow members of the body and fellow partakers of the promise

53:09

The Epangelia which is in Christ Jesus by the gospel if what's your understanding there is that they are

53:19

Engrafted into that promise that goes all the way back to well to the garden, but especially to Abraham Definitely and that is why

53:31

Paul can say in in Philippians We are the true circumcision who worship God in the spirit and so there is

53:42

I I realized my Dispensational friends who are truly dispensational not leaky dispensationalist

53:50

But my dispensational friends and all a number of other groups struggle with this idea

53:58

But I think it is unquestionable in the New Testament teaching that the the church is not the

54:07

Replacement that's why I cringe every time I see my friend Michael Brown posting stuff against quote -unquote replacement theology the church is the continuation of and fulfillment of all of the promises that are given to Israel and that the true

54:26

Israel was always made up of those who were changed by the

54:32

Spirit of God and were truly Regenerate and partake of that one means of salvation, so I think

54:43

My answer to your question is yes, I think a because I was also looking in light of Romans 11 where Paul is talking about that.

54:56

God has elected many like these

55:01

Jews are Partially hardened until right, the Gentiles are all in or have been chosen to obtain it and then the rest or What am

55:13

I reading? Yeah, that's a Roman 1125 where it says like for I do not want you brethren to be uninformed of the mysteries

55:21

So that you will not be wise in your own estimation That a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the

55:29

Gentiles has come in. Yeah, but I Think you need to start earlier in chapter 11 to get the proper parameters

55:38

Right, and that's like five and seven exactly Yeah in in verse five in the same way, then there has also come to be at the present time the the

55:50

Lima the remnant According to God's gracious choice according to his graces gracious election

56:01

And the argument that he then develops From Old Testament texts is the fact that this has been in fact, this was the point of Romans 9

56:15

Romans 9 likewise bears out that God has always functioned on this basis of a sovereign free election in the

56:28

Application of the promises that he has that he has made and So I think if you keep that in mind then when you get to the end of chapter 11 the point there is not the idea of And nor could it be given because people sometimes forget the reality that Maybe in the days of Paul writing prior to the destruction of Jerusalem you could have

56:56

Possibly come up with the idea that well, yeah, all the Jews will be saved after the Gentiles come in That wouldn't make a lick of sense today.

57:05

There's been a massive huge time period That has that has passed during which many many many many many ethnic

57:15

Jews have passed away outside of Christ, so You have to I think try to read you know

57:24

If there are multiple ways of dealing with Romans 11 and there there are and it's a difficult passage for anybody

57:32

The way you read it is the way that it's gonna allow it to be consistently understood down through the ages

57:38

Not one that would make sense back then but no longer makes sense anymore. So That's where I would would start with with that and hence what's being said at the end is is bringing in All of the elect whether Jew or Gentile and when it says all

57:56

Israel will be saved I would say I would see that as the Israel of God. Not just simply the ethnic followers of Israel because they haven't been

58:06

I mean Right. It's it's been 2 ,000 years so it's sort of hard to try to Cram that in there, even though One of the read one of the readings that people have is all the

58:18

Jews living at that time will be saved. Well Okay, I guess but I you know that that seems like a like a major stretch

58:28

If God wants to save all the Jews alive today, guess what not only can he but I'm not gonna stand in his way

58:35

I would like to be used of that. That'd be wonderful. I was just in Israel and and You know seeing all the the

58:41

Jewish people there and said that'd be great that'd be awesome and And God can do it and I that'd be wonderful.

58:47

He did that. I just don't think that's Paul's point there I think his his point is the remnant is

58:53

Remains consistently all the way through there. Okay? Okay. All right Roman to as well, you know how a

59:00

Jew is not outwardly but a Jew is inwardly the third incision of the heart Oh, yeah. Yeah.

59:05

Okay. I think that's it together All right, thank you, all right, thank you, all right Right Well, I have one there it just simply has a question mark and I don't even know what

59:19

I'm supposed to do with that Line three. I don't even know what it is, but I'll go to Colin hi

59:26

Colin Hello Colin Just barely

59:34

It sounds like you're in middle of a rushing river Some wind there, okay

59:41

Yes, uh -huh Hey Hey, thanks for taking my call. I appreciate it.

59:46

I just have a question about what does it mean that Jesus is called the word? and John's prologue, uh -huh well, the the term that is used there

59:58

Lagos has Has a background in the

01:00:03

Old Testament and in the Material of the what's called the intertestamental period that is the writings of the

01:00:10

Jews Between Malachi and and Matthew that 400 year period there and The Lagos is the one that reveals the father that according to that very prologue

01:00:25

We are told the Lagos has eternally existed as as God has eternally been in relationship with the father

01:00:33

Is close to the father's side has that intimate relationship with him and Therefore is the one that explains the father to us and because he's not merely a creature, but he does take on flesh

01:00:47

Then because of his eternal nature he can accurately Explain to us who the father is while at the same time

01:00:56

He while at the same time Since he has taken on flesh then we can have an understandable

01:01:03

Revelation of who the father is we can't approach The father he dwells in unapproachable light and and and so we need to have a very accurate and clear revelation of who he is and That's what we have in in the

01:01:18

Lagos. And so that that use the term word memra

01:01:25

Devar are some of the terms from the Old Testament That's in Psalm 89

01:01:31

Psalm 119. These are our passages where there's a very high Reference to God's Word and God's God's Revelation Some people try to connect this to Greek philosophical concepts

01:01:43

The Lagos was God's reason and ordering principle and stuff But I think the the much safer and and better origin

01:01:52

For the utilization of the term is is to be found in the Old Testament text rather than you know, some people try to connect it to the applying it to The Alexandrian Jewish writers names escaping me at the moment

01:02:11

To other sources that I think lead to some real some real issues. So, okay

01:02:17

I'll give you just for a moment We just tell me again those passages that way

01:02:23

I can I know Psalm 19 Is you know, the writer is reveling and and glorifying

01:02:31

God for his word and and Showing his appreciation for the law of God and stuff like that what

01:02:39

And so I'll study that but um, what uh, what was the other passage? Uh, I had

01:02:46

Off top my head there was a reference To Psalm 89

01:02:53

I'm Looking at it right now. And since I'm looking at it very quickly,

01:02:59

I might skip over it, but I Don't have a a list in front of me of references

01:03:10

It's it's interesting like when I when I read in the beginning was the word Yeah, it's it's a

01:03:18

John specifically uses that language for him. And so me being me being a

01:03:27

Westerner, you know, I have no idea How how a first century

01:03:32

Jew Or Jewish Christian or Gentile Christian would have understood his use of that word.

01:03:39

Well, yeah Well, like I was saying, I think that the the best Background for that is found in not only the the

01:03:47

Old Testament utilization of terms like like Devar but also in the

01:03:54

Intertestamental period there's more discussions of that the fellow I was his name escaped me for a second

01:04:00

Some people will try to say that Philo down Alexandria who wrote before the end of John's life

01:04:06

Would be one of the sources I I sort of struggle with that I don't I'm not sure that's the best way to go.

01:04:12

So but you if you read If you read commentaries you will end up dealing with With that kind of stuff that will be thrown at you about Philo and stuff like that So just be aware of that when you run into it.

01:04:29

Sounds good. Thank you so much for your help. Okay. Thanks a lot God bless. No problem. Bye well, all right, let's finish up by Talking to Hassan hi

01:04:40

Hassan Hi, dr. White. Mm -hmm. Thank you for Allowing me to call you.

01:04:47

I Just want to say I I come from a Muslim background and I just want to thank you for your ministry you'll help me so much with all your

01:04:57

Debates and your discussions with different Muslim scholars. So I really appreciate that but in those debates

01:05:03

I've covered mark 1332 at least 20 different times so Right, right, but I had a question

01:05:11

I was watching another video on YouTube about this and the speaker was saying that that word no, it also could be translated as revealed and So no one revealed the last hour

01:05:30

Except the father. Is that a true explanation or I Am automatically

01:05:44

Suspicious of any translation of a very difficult text where you take a word and You you don't translate it by its its normative meaning in this text

01:06:04

What you have is the term Oida now Oida is just simply the aorist

01:06:11

Form of Gnosko, which is this that's the present tense It's one of those terms where the stem changes rapidly wildly between the aorist and the present and so Gnosis is is the

01:06:32

Substantive will form the noun form would be gnosis. And so you've heard of the Gnostics and people like that.

01:06:38

That's So it is the standard word for to know Now can there be places?

01:06:47

Where Knowledge is revealed Yes, but generally the terminology will be used there will be something like apocalypsis

01:07:00

Or some of the related terms like that I I think

01:07:08

I have heard probably what you've heard I think

01:07:13

I ran into a Video not long ago myself

01:07:19

Where I heard one saying that their understanding of this was That basically it is not the

01:07:26

Sun's role to reveal The day or or the hour

01:07:32

The the problem is That a that's a stretch and B But of that day or hour no one can reveal

01:07:48

Not even the angels in heaven know the Sun but the Father alone. Well Okay I don't know that I could defend that Narrowing of what's called the semantic domain of Gnoska Oida down that tightly

01:08:08

Because I don't see anything in the context of that. I Obviously think that what you have here is that to fulfill?

01:08:18

the role that the Sun Voluntarily takes to be the

01:08:23

Messiah and Savior of the world It is necessary that he lay aside certain aspects

01:08:32

In the incarnation such as his glory That would allow him to do what he and the

01:08:41

Father and the Spirit in eternity past chose to do Could I See a connection maybe between that interpretation of Revelation And just simply saying it is only the father's prerogative to reveal this

01:09:03

Okay, I'm not gonna say it's wrong I'm just gonna say that I don't know that I could that I could defend that in a and for me, you know for most people

01:09:17

Not being able to defend it in debate is not necessarily a high priority but for me, it's sort of determinative and so some people have more freedom to adopt interpretations

01:09:33

Than I than I do. But if if I'm gonna especially on a topic like this,

01:09:39

I think That it's much more defensible and I think more textual to point out to the

01:09:46

Muslim first of all that You a Muslim can't believe that Jesus ever spoke these words in the first place because he calls himself the son he specifically differentiates himself between the angels in heaven and humanity and places himself between the father and all of creation

01:10:07

Which is similar to what the Logos does in John 1 so no no

01:10:12

Muslim person can actually believe Jesus ever said these words Because they just they bring it up all the time.

01:10:19

Oh, I know I believe me I know but it's but it's an inconsistent thing to do you either have to admit Well, I don't think Jesus ever said this so I really can't push it beyond that or to simply say well

01:10:28

I just want to show contradiction in your scriptures And so we can discuss it on that level, but then they have to admit that The Jesus of Mark 13 32 is speaking himself in a way that the

01:10:43

Muslim Jesus could never have spoken So I think that needs to be to be emphasized in in giving a proper response but the the key thing is

01:10:53

I I think this has to do with what you see in Philippians chapter 2 and that that that's being made in the likeness of men and that included veiling his glory and veiling his knowledge of that particular event, which is

01:11:12

Specifically ascribed to the father alone, but at the same time Emphasizing he the son is above the angels.

01:11:20

He's above all of humanity and above the angels Sorry, that's not how Muhammad presented

01:11:25

Jesus No matter no matter how you go. How you how you go, even though it's interesting. There's one other thing to add in there

01:11:31

Muhammad obviously didn't know about Mark 13 32 either Because I guarantee you

01:11:38

Especially at the end of his life because traditionally the

01:11:43

Background for surah 3 or at least the portion of surah 3 that goes to the meeting with the Christians from Najran The topics that seemingly are raised there if he had known of Mark 13 32 and the parallel in Matthew It would have been central to the comments that are made.

01:12:01

Nothing's ever said there's there's no recognition These texts do not enter into Islamic thought until much later because the early

01:12:10

Muslims knew nothing about the New Testament So I think that's significant Hadn't thought about that, huh?

01:12:27

Yeah, I did that while writing I listened to four or five different Translations of of the

01:12:33

Quran a number of years ago and still review it once in a while. That was before I started

01:12:40

Sahih Sahih al -Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, which took a lot longer than the Quran believe me me

01:12:47

So, yeah, well, thank you, thank you very much You have been a great great help and hopefully you can come to my country of course a little sometimes

01:12:56

Well, that's yeah, you know, I'll actually I'll be in in Russia in in February teaching at a school there

01:13:06

Lord willing and I I was in I had to turn down an invitation.

01:13:11

I'd love to accept it eventually But I had to turn down the invitation to go to Albania on that on that trip as well, so I've been to the

01:13:22

Czech Republic The folks in Albania want me to get there. So yeah, who knows maybe it could it could happen

01:13:31

I wish that would happen. I hope so. I'll pray about it. All right. Thanks Hassan. Thank you so much.

01:13:36

God bless you. God bless. Bye -bye All right. Well, you know You never know when you open up the phone lines

01:13:44

What you're gonna get what you normally do get is People who are listening to the response

01:13:51

Summary, we must have the busiest audience in the world Because they can't stop doing whatever it is.

01:13:58

They're doing on the phone while talking to me So there's all this noise in the background and opening packages something like that it's like You know that makes it a little bit hard for other folks to listen

01:14:11

So, you know you you might have to start because I know on the big stations There are they the the call screener has a certain little

01:14:21

Routine little speech they go through you know, don't don't do this on a speakerphone and You know keep listening because you might it might come to you quickly and Try to minimize the background noise, you know, if the dog starts barking there's nothing much you can do about that But you know, you know opening packages and stuff

01:14:41

The most helpful thing for everybody else who wants to listen That's all you know, cuz you have to turn you down so that in it's a method.

01:14:49

All right. Thanks for listening to the program today Lord will and we'll see you next week.