Trinity & Oneness Open Discussion, 9/1/2021

Mm -hmm. So let's see.

It's the number one And this is a one this

Trinity discussion Coming in and watching and And So people they will

Happen here is that people are going to Be polite in their conversations accusing and Mocking and things like that what a lot of people do and so Here People in there we go and other people listening

I can give you tips.

I can give you things to say to them. We can discuss that if you want to come along the end. You can do that and show how to witness to them.

A lot of times oneness people don't understand really the doctrine of the Trinity that they are arguing against and they think that oneness is the truth and it's not.

It's a heresy. So what

I'm going to do is I'm going to place the link for people to come in here.

No sound? No sound?

That is low. Let's see. How about now? Can you guys hear me okay?

Let me see. Okay.

Is that any better? Test one two.

Test one two three four five. Test one two three four five.

Test one two three four five. Test one two three four five.

Test one two three four five. Test one two three four five. Test one two three four five. Test one two three four five. Test one two three four five.

Test one two three four five. Test one two three four five. Test one two three four five. Test one two three four five. Test one two three four five.

Test one two three four five. Is it a little better? How's that?

Any better? Just a few seconds for the issue to go through and stuff.

Can you hear me now? Testing one two three. Four five six. No? Why is that all of a sudden?

I'm not believing it. Trust RM.

Oh, and there's Melissa too. Good. Alright. Let me think. Let me think.

I'm going to go and come back. Hold on. Alright.

Let's see. Leave. Alright, how do

I sound now? Sound any better? If that doesn't work, I'll have to reboot my entire computer.

It'll take me about two minutes. You guys can stay in here. So, Carmen and Alyssa, I trust you two.

Is it better? Sometimes people get in and they just hate me. And they say, that's no good.

And it really isn't. It's so muffled. Okay. What I'm going to do then is reboot my computer.

Okay. Still the same. Okay, hold on a second.

We'll work on this. Okay. You can hear me.

What I'm going to do, I'm thinking about the possibility of just rebooting the computer coming back in here.

And I think that's what I'll do. And then if it works, great. If it doesn't, I'll shut the room down and then re -establish it and re -open it up and put it in the new link information on Facebook.

And it may just be what's necessary. So, what I'm doing right now is shutting everything down. I have lots of windows open.

And it takes me a little bit to do that. And then what I'll do, you guys can hear me, is let me try rebooting the system.

A lot of times that helps. And I have a really fast computer. So, it should go pretty quickly once I do that reboot thing.

What I'm going to do now is closing I'm still closing stuff.

And out of that and out of that and then out of this and out of that Boy, I have a lot of stuff here.

I'm still closing. Alright. Melissa said it sounds good. You'll wait.

Yeah, I'm going to do that. What I'm going to do is shut my computer down for 20 seconds because I want it to be clean.

And it could be my mic, I know, but it's the same mic I use all the time and it's been charging and everything should be fine.

So, not only is it the mic, but every now and then a computer just needs to be rebooted because I use my computer a great deal.

And I have all kinds of stuff with it all the time. So, what I'm going to do now is just simply shut the system down and I'm going to put this in, let it be, reboot the whole thing.

I'll be back in about two minutes at the most. So, just hold on, okay? So, let me do this.

I will be right back. What I'll do is do that.

Okay. I'll be right back. Alright.

Now, can you guys hear me? Alright? So, I restarted and hopefully it'll work.

So, just tell me if you can hear me.

Everything looks good. Everything's fine. It should be fine. Sound problems, microphone, it's coming back, that's right.

And just let me know if it's working. Okay? That's what I'm hoping for, that this is a fix.

So, let me know. Alright? Time must work.

Yep, sounds great. Okay, good. Sometimes you just gotta reboot.

Well, I don't know what to say. Someone said it sounded good. Someone said it doesn't. That's what it is.

We've got 21 people watching. So, what I'm going to do is just stick with this. So, how many on a scale from 1 to 10, 10 being perfectly fine and 1 being really bad, give me some numbers and it'll help me decide if I need to troubleshoot anymore.

Alright? Give me the numbers. 10 being really good, 1 being really bad. How do I sound?

And hopefully we'll get people who want to come in and have this discussion on Monday. So, if I put the information up that anybody can come in, that they aren't

Okay. That's interesting. I wonder what that is.

5. Okay. That's really interesting. Let me try something here.

Microphone. Wow. What I can do is do an audio.

There. That'll fix it. Duh. Oh, I know what happened.

No, I know what it is now. I Just learned something No, it wasn't the mic it was my settings

I had started this video a couple of hours ago and was in the waiting and it remembered a different setting and So that's what the problem was.

I remembered a different setting and And so I assumed that it updated the other settings but it didn't so now

I I got it solved Sorry about that That's what it is. All right, that's what it is.

All right. Come on you guys. You got any questions comments? You can get in here. You can talk we can do whatever it is You want to do

I'm open to having a discussion on the Trinity and oneness if nobody Just comes in to discuss things with me.

What I'll do is just talk about why Oneness theology is bad What NASA doesn't know everything you got that, right?

I say all you gotta do is ask my wife She'll tell you that in a heartbeat. He doesn't know anything That's how it works.

It's a 10 now. Good. We're back. Yeah, my bad. I checked the settings I actually checked it in the other thing and it looked like it was good.

So I'm confused but It happens. That's what happens sometimes. All right Now we're back

Everything's good, and I'm waiting because I was hoping to be able to talk about oneness with people

I've got another debate scheduled on oneness Let's see. Um, I Want this debate another guy wants to debate.

I just got so much stuff going on Researching kovat and some other things.

Oh, there's the calendar right there. I have a debate I'm looking on when my debates set up And that is

When do I have that? Huh?

Okay, someplace sometime. I already moved it. I'll check on my phone later Yeah, I do.

I have another debate on oneness. There it is on October 1st. Got it found it. All right Okay.

Well look if anybody wants to come in here, please have a discussion with me. You feel feel Free to do that.

There's the link you get right in you'll need a microphone to have a conversation and You don't have to have a camera but camera helps just you know, it's nice So, let me know interesting, all right

Interesting, all right well Asian Steve Is in that's me.

Yes, it's me. All right So are you one? Trinitarian or what?

That's why I want to ask you. I am Indonesian Okay, my name is

Steve I Have a bad English. I don't English not my native language

Okay, I want to ask two questions first If I if I have said

Jesus the salvation of Jesus but I don't have a full knowledge of complete knowledge

Right the right knowledge of the Trinitarian of Athens use Where am

I going to go? It would depend on what you know what you reject how long and we can't really say for sure

Because people can have different levels of understanding on different topics and still be saved and it'd be wrong

If for example, you were to say that Jesus is not God and you just refuse to believe that he was then you're going to hell

I don't put the Doctrine of the Trinity as an absolute necessity Because People can believe in something that's not

Trinitarian in their ignorance And still be saved But eventually they'll come to a knowledge of that truth because God will work that truth in them and then they'll be saved

It will manifest that they're already saved which is why they would believe the truth So it just there's some gray area in there

I'm a little bit more gracious about it Did a lot of people who would say if you don't believe in the Trinity right away, you're not safe Well, not necessarily because it might be that you don't have a full understanding yet and you know talk about it.

So Okay Okay. Thank you

All right. Do you believe in the Trinity? I believe the

Arius Arius's Trinity not not not that I don't believe the

Athena is Trinity, but I Can describe it in my brain in my logic the

Trinity of Trinity of Athanasius. I can only imagine the

Trinity of Arius. Oh No, no, no Arius is false Okay, Arius is false

All right. Let me do something here. What I want to do is I will share my screen and I'm going to go through a

Definition of God and the Trinity and if you guys don't mind, but I can do this and I can email you this quote if anybody wants it.

Now. This is something I'm using to teach on patreon and I'm going through an advanced study on the

Trinity and This is something that I have developed over the past year in my discussions.

It started with atheists Because a lot of times atheists would misrepresent the doctrine of the

Trinity and so what I would do is say no that's not what we teach and So you can see what

I do I do a lot of work I have outlines That's what I do. I do stuff like this.

So I just I have outlines So I have stuff that I do an outline form Different colors that mean different things for me and things like that.

And so I have them on I Have a month Calvinism science philosophy

Catholicism the outlines on the canon slavery. I go it just goes on and do different things atheism and I'm developing one on oneness.

But at any rate so what I do is This is my apologetics Biblical apologetics and I had to do is because it was necessary that I define

Who God was in order for people to have? Be able to debate it and and stuff like that and So We'll tell you what

Patrick what we want is For you to come in and talk to me if all you're gonna do is post links.

I'm gonna ban you So if you post post one more link, I'm just gonna ban you if this is a discussion room

So, please come in to talk now if you want to do that, that's fine Okay, and here's the link that you can click on and Patrick you can come in you can say the

Trinity's false because and we can talk But if you just come in and post links,

I'm just gonna ban you. I'm warning you. I'm gonna kick you out So I want you to have a discussion. That's what this is for Okay Okay, so good, you know, it'll be polite discussion.

Okay, but while you're trying to get in let me just read this There's only one

God in all places in all time. There have been no gods before him There'll be no gods after him.

He is the one and only uncreated necessary Trinitarian being eternally consisting of Three simultaneous and distinct persons the

Father of the Son the Holy Spirit the three persons share the same divine essence They call it the ontological Trinity, but express different functions in creation.

We call that the economic Trinity Neither person derives his substance from either one or both of both of the others

The Trinity is not comprised of parts, but is one simple divine being that should move this Oh divine simplicity over to here

But anyway, the Trinity in the Trinity are unity and diversity which are equally basic and mutually dependent upon one another

Clear my throat God is spiritual in nature non -contingent unchanging transcendent and sovereign

God has nothing against which he can be compared and defined. Therefore. He is Self -revealed in creation scripture and Jesus.

He is the ultimate source of all truths all actualities and all potentialities Goodness mercy love holiness, etc are revealed by him as an expression of his nature

Therefore that which is good is known by comparison to God's nature, which is holy and righteous

There is no condition in which the Christian God might exist or could not exist since that would not be the

God of the Bible God's incommunicable attributes stresses transcendence and his communicable attributes stresses imminence

He created the universe as well as people God is neither included in space nor absent from it.

He does Typo right there. He does whatever he pleases and ordains all that occurs

He possesses infinite knowledge wisdom presence and power that manifest out of his good and holy nature

Since he is the ultimate standard of all that is good He will judge the people all people that is those who have by faith

Trusted in the self -revealed atonement of Jesus who is God in flesh will be saved from the righteous and from righteous and eternal

Condemnation those who have not will face righteous and eternal Condemnation will be saved from yeah, okay

Let me work on that Have eternal salvation with him So I keep perfecting this as I read it sometimes go

I could word that a little bit better in some areas so this is the same thing with scripture references and So I'm still working on it at these means

I just have scriptures to put in and I'm doing some stuff. This looks like this is an older version It's like something happened to it because I remember doing all this before So anyway, that's what

I'm working with and the issue of the Trinity And so I've been studying it teaching on it for a long time

Okay, so I was waiting for that guy to come in here So if you guys are interested come on in and give me a conversation we can have a discussion pearls for pigs

All right So Welcome pearls.

How are you? Don't hear you. No, no

Don't hear you. You gotta you have to work on something. Okay, keep trying it

No, when I hear you, I'll tell you but I don't hear you. Just keep working it.

So who's the guy come on Patrick Eccles? Is that are you Patrick Eccles?

No, okay Well, here's the link for Patrick to come in he says the Trinity's false

Let's see if he can defend it still don't hear you. Are you on a PC or Mac?

Or your iPhone? Did you try turning the volume up? Can't hear you try coming back in okay,

I'm not sure to tell you I don't have an iPhone so I don't know Okay. All right.

Who's this kale as in salad? Are you there kale?

Yes, sorry, can you hear me? Yeah. Oh I'm all right.

So are you Trinitarian or not or what? Well, I'm not the guy that you were just speaking to.

Okay, I am So we've actually spoken a couple All right

So, yes We've spoken a number of times all right but Yeah, I'm actually not sure what

I want to talk to you about not sure if I want to This is an Italian. I am an infinitarian

Okay, let's see if the other guy can hear hey pearls, can you talk can you hear me? Yes now

I hear you Well pearls was in first. So let's go with him and then we'll come back to whatever that was it.

You said you were So pearls welcome Are you doing doing all right?

all right, so Biblical cosmology, what do you think of that?

I like it So do you believe in the heliocentric model yes

So this is Trinity and oneness discussion, but I'll do this for Are you a flat earther no good

But according to Scripture the earth is still The earth is what still says it's immovable

Yeah, and it's not talking about his position in space. What about its foundation? What about the firmament do you believe it's solid like No No, because Words can mean what they mean in context.

It says firmament can be used in different ways So you pick and choose when you want to believe something's literal in the

Bible, huh? Oh, no, do you okay? No, I don't. Are you an atheist? I believe you can read the

Bible metaphorically seriously Literally Allegorically, it's okay made to just be one because yeah, but I I agree with you that my car works.

Yeah Yeah, I agree about my car what else about my car you were saying so you think the

Sun is stationary, huh? No, my car is not red No, I said, do you think the

Sun is stationary? No, I said my car is not red Yeah So you just just I'm just all

I'm doing is using your words metaphorically symbolically interpreting My words, I didn't say anything about your car brother.

You don't listen. You're not listening to me You're not you understand the point if you're gonna start saying the scriptures just could be interpreted basically any way you want then

I can interpret whatever you say anyway I want because you're saying is there's no way to know what the scriptures really teach if that's

Listen listen to me if that's the case that's that's what that's what you're leading to it We've done this this this this this the night they ask you questions

I'm leaving the truth of the scripture and you're you're ducking it From what scripture really says, okay.

Can you hold on a second? Please fill in the luminaries revolve around us and there's okay to divide Is that what is that what you believe that the earth is is still that does a

Sun go around the earth? It's it makes a circle above the earth. That's what

I You're a flat earther you believe in a flat earth. No, I'm a

Christian brother. Okay Do you believe the earth is a is a sphere? No, is it?

Okay, is it flat? Earth is a plane of inertia. That's what planet

Earth means brother. I Can tell you have no clue what science really is

Yeah, why don't you tell me the five steps of science brother? And there aren't any five steps of science fucking idiot.

Goodbye Yeah, you look, you know, this is There aren't any five steps of science that guy's just a moron

Science has different ways of being looked at it's based on philosophical assumptions and you can't say there's just five

Some say five some say seven some say three and I was just trying to show the guy But he was just intolerant and wouldn't listen that.

No, it's not an exact number There's different ways of defining the scientific method which is what he was confusing with the issue of what science is

The method is different than the science so he doesn't understand and so I was trying to correct him then he starts cussing and Leaves, so this is the kind of mentality that we have to deal with.

No, I don't think so and He has lost his right to come back in. Oh, no, that's kale.

Yeah kale. Here you go if you are you're all right Yeah, hey, sorry. I got bumped off there somehow. That's all right.

That's all right I want so hold up real quick. We spoke about two weeks ago.

We spoke about transcendental Presuppositional ism and we spoke about Eastern Orthodoxy Do you briefly remember our conversation?

We had a very cordial conversation that I would like to continue that I don't want to whatever that guy just did is

Inappropriate and unnecessary. So yeah and foolish that shows us how foolish he is So I don't

I barely remember something like that. I talked to so many people, you know, sure. Sure. Absolutely Yeah, so Yes, so we had a very cordial conversation

I don't know if this is appropriate because you said it's a one this versus a Trinitarian That's we're supposed to be talking about right?

Sorry. Well, it's it's in that vein. So I have a unique theology

And I am what you would consider an infinitarian So where I believe that the

Godhead is not limited to three persons, but rather that every persona is

Whether you want to look at it as As part of the

Theatric Union or if you want to consider The essence instantiating every persona that exists.

Okay. Let's get some terms defined. Sure So are you talking about God?

Yes Okay, so let's define your God God is how many persons?

Every person mean every human being Yes. Okay. God is

Every human being okay anything else is he plants and rocks?

Well, so yes Okay, plants and rocks. So is me don't limit me to pantheism.

I am Okay Just going with that So every human is divine plants and rocks are also divine

Is God eternal or does he have a beginning? No, the essence of God is not finite

No, does he have a beginning? No. Well, I mean if he's not finite, he wouldn't have a beginning I find

I can have different meanings different context. So Yes, so he is he transcends

Temporality while being absolutely imminent throughout it as well. Okay, so he's eternal

Uh -huh and ever -present Okay, correct. All right, is he personal?

Well, I mean by definition if he's every persona he would have to be person yes, so every persona has its own mind

Every every every mind that every persona has is a particular to the universal infinite omniscient mind of God so you have

Different personal people like you me others are We're gods No, we are

God singular. Not God God. Okay, so how many how many? Okay, well just to find personhood.

Sure person who does so good This is a great place to begin because here's here's where we're gonna first diverge.

I mean, obviously we've diverged already, but So you would root? subjectivity within personhood

Whereas I would root subjectivity within essence We can't do that until we define stuff.

So what do you mean by person? I Mean so, okay

Everything that is finite about us. So your mind my fingernail is finite. So I mean

So your fingernail is a part of your persona. Your body is a part of your persona. Let's talk about personhood

Sure, okay I'm going to use those terms interchangeably persona person.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no No, we have to define our terms. If you start using things interchangeably, there's no definitions.

Sure, so Personhood, let's talk about attributes of person. They're self -aware.

I Can't hear you. Yes. No Yeah, so person is self -aware

Yes, but in a particular sense not in a universal sense, so I believe that the essence is aware of itself as well

Okay, so Wow Self -aware and Can it communicate

They were communicating now, so yes, well this person what personhood is can it can personhood communicate

It's the vehicle through which communication finite communication happens or illusory communication happens, okay,

I Think I'm gonna stop here and just say that you make no sense whatsoever you have no way of validating what it is that you're saying your your lack of definitions and Specificity in the issues and the the incongruity of how you put things together just demonstrates to me

You're clueless about the issues of logic, but furthermore where in the heck you getting all this

So I've spent a long long time studying this I was studying aware Through personal experience, okay, so your experience started by experience you have anything that's

You have anything that is serious so we can take seriously not just your experience Okay, I'm self -learned so I would think that that's the highest level of education that you can get so for instance

How do you know that as self -learned is the highest level of education where'd you get that I mean

Experiences better than book knowledge, but I'll tell you how do you know experience is better than book knowledge.

We're just getting all this I just got done reading Van Til's apologetic by Bonson, so I'm I'm learning.

I know what I'm talking about. No you don't so here, so Okay, no, it's because I disagree with you.

No no no it's not an issue of disagreement people could be rational and disagree I have no problem with that.

We just then discuss particulars. You are irrational You're not coherent

God is every human being let me explain Why would I say well what's personhood if you're gonna say

God is every human being I'm gonna start asking the issues of what? You definition of a person who it is because it requires a focus on the mind

But if you're gonna have multiple minds, how can you justify the universality of the transcendentals because they'd be abstract principles

But you'd have to have either unity of minds Which means it wouldn't be separate or there had to be a pair of caresses which means a death the essence is absolute divinity

There's all kinds of problems Yeah, I'm talking logically that's how you're losing me now you're you're walking and so you're coming in and out of out of whatever but You look you don't understand

Van Til you don't understand Hansen. You don't understand these things. Yeah, you don't understand. I'm not here you Okay Yeah, I hear you okay, so We need to have some

I've asked for oneness people to come in and that's what I'm hoping for so if oneness people

Want to remove him because he's coming in and out and now he's lost. So there we go

Hmm There we go Asian Steve don't know if you're still there

Okay, my last two question may I sure so Are you die with no knowledge no full knowledge the full understanding of the

Athanasius Trinity Where is Arius now heaven or hell

Arias if he did not repent of his false teaching would be in hell for denying that Jesus was God in flesh because arias

Arianism denies the deity of Christ So she haven't in heaven on or in hell now

No, he denied that Jesus Christ was God in flesh So therefore we would not say that he is in heaven because he denied an essential doctor of the

Christian faith Okay. Okay. Okay. My last questions sure, the the the

Criminals beside Jesus Christ Yeah, the criminals who accept Jesus he accept

Jesus as the king or God Well, I can't say because the text doesn't say he just said remember me when you come into your kingdom

He was appealing to Jesus and Jesus said you'll be with me and apparently that was enough for salvation That's what happened with Arius well,

Arius had open denial of the deity of Christ Arius Arianism Arius said that Jesus is a created thing

That the the divine aspect wasn't divine, but he was created. So Arius was a

Damnable heretic, which means that what he was teaching is damnable heresy. Okay Okay, okay.

Okay. Thank you Mr. Matt, right? Okay. So you're here. That's okay.

So you're from Indonesia You're Muslim I Think I'm one but I I Think I'm a honest because Okay, this is the last question.

What is the criteria? How can I be how can

I call someone? What is the criteria for say you are anathema, oh

What are the essentials of the faith is what you want to know, right No, no, no when no when

I tell you when Athanasius curse the curse Arius the anathema

Arius What is the criteria for? cursing someone He denied who

Jesus was What so far as I have read in in Paul book of Paul and book of Peter The criteria is those who are not love

Those who don't love Jesus. He may be anathema And then

I see are you? Yeah, I'm not Emma. Mm -hmm. I can I Can claim that I can claim that Arius I Not loving

Jesus. I guess but yes, I can claim he don't have a full knowledge of Trinity But that's not but I can curse him

Athena Athanasius can curse him can anathema him Okay, it's cursing

G I mean areas denied that Jesus was God in flesh Now Jesus says unless you believe that I am you will die in your sins

John 8 24 So areas denied that so areas died in his sins

All right That's that's why here because because here in Indonesia Mm -hmm,

Tunisia and the oneness is cursing each other Well, it's the one this is yeah, it's

It's cursing. It's other is the fruit That is nothing up. No the oneness theology is not

Christian Oneness theology adds works to salvation. All right, they add works

So what I would I'd recommend what you do. I'm gonna put I'm gonna show you something here. I'm gonna share my screen and Let's see get right into here, okay

Right here you go essential Christian doctrines. Okay, what I would suggest you do is that you would read this this is from Scripture, all right, and You can see where the statements are from Scripture, this is not my opinion

That's what the word says I'd read through that and then read through the secondary essentials.

You have to understand this and Then if you want what you can do is go to calm and it type in oneness just type in the word oneness up there and hit enter and It'll take you to oneness

Pentecostal stuff and the issues That are here with oneness and why it's false and You can

Do searches for the Trinity too, and you can learn what the

Trinity is biblically Okay, so there's there's an example the

Trinity chart So that's what I would ask is is to study it because our your language you're pretty good

But there's a little hard to understand you because of your accent, but I'm not complaining But I would suggest that you read articles first So that you get an understanding of what

Christianity teaches so, you know What the essentials are and the non essentials and once you know that you'll know why oneness is a non -christian cult

But it's not Christian. Now. They're gonna say we're not Christian Have the oneness come in here and let's talk

Because the Trinity is arrived at a Trinity The Trinity is arrived at Systematically Okay, it's arrived at by looking at the whole of Scripture, which says there's only one

God and It says that the Father's called God the Son's called

God the Holy Spirit's called God and we go down and We have fellowship with each one.

Each one is said to be eternal each one has a will each one speaks

This is exactly how we arrive at the doctrine of the Trinity just like this we say one

God and there's three fathers and Holy Spirit and They each have a will they each speak they each love

Well, that's what we call persons Therefore there's three persons That's that's it.

That's how simple it is to come up with the Trinity when the oneness say we we

That we Trinitarians are unbiblical I say well show me I'm just showing you how it's arrived at right here

Is this wrong and it's not wrong? Because there's the scriptures, you know has a will the

Holy Spirit All these are empowered by one in the same spirit who apportions to each one individually as he wills

Or Like, you know, the Father speaks a voice from heaven said this is my beloved

Son in whom I will splee The Holy Spirit speaks, you know That's how the

Trinity's arrived at so when the oneness say we're false This is what they have to refute, but they don't they don't ever refute it

And just as Melissa is saying they also require baptism for salvation, which is not true

I just spent an hour going over baptism stuff after the radio show today I don't know if you guys caught that but with someone so, you know, there's just there's a lot there

Okay Okay The next question

I have many question Can can

Trinitarian person course and anathema Oneness person.

Yes, and can the oneness person course and anathema the Trinitarian person

Yeah, they can do it They can say the words It's not the world.

Is that the fruit of this is Is that the best of sin? Absolutely.

Yes. Uh -huh Just because he don't understand the full knowledge of Trinitarian.

Well logic in I said earlier that That it depends on what they know what they don't know what they are rejecting things like that Okay, okay, okay your answer is yes they can right they can what they can curse each other

They understand you understand what I'm saying. They can curse each other. It doesn't mean the cursing is valid Anybody can curse and say hey, you're wrong.

Anybody can say the words It doesn't mean that it it's a different Different what you saying you are wrong is different with course

Yes, how about how about the free cynician council, how about the do not is the novice and they all cursed by the council, right?

You're hard to understand. I'm sorry. Say that again before before are you scam in Nissan council nation see note council.

There's a group I don't know Novotn ism. Novotn ism.

Do not ism No, not ism Donatism, right? No, but yeah, not ism and novotn ism.

They are good. I like Donat ism and what? No, fatian ism.

No fatian. No fatian No, fatian ism. I don't understand. And and Oh V a

T. I Did you just spell it out and Oh V.

It's a it's very It's difficult to understand you So Novotn ism.

Ah, yeah, right. Okay What about it? All right.

So yeah They are being cursed, right? Yeah Yeah So is there is that good for the church or what?

Okay. Okay, you have to okay You're not asking the right questions because you don't understand the issues

You need to go read go to my website and read up on Christian doctrine Need to read

You to learn what Christianity is because your questions you're telling me you don't understand what we're teaching

It just done an issue of cursing Okay, okay, okay, mr.

Matt, I don't I don't understand are you Baptized or anabaptized or Catholic or what?

I'm a Christian Yes, I I am baptized. Yes Okay, a baptism is not necessary for salvation as oneness will say

Yeah in history the baptized then the anabaptized

Were being cursed. So you Stop stop. Stop. Stop. You keep bringing up are cursed over and over different things.

I'll keep telling you you need to go study the issues It's hard to understand what you're saying I'm not following you.

I listen and then you leave me down a road. It doesn't make sense What you're saying from what you've said,

I think you need to study Christian theology first Okay Have you been to my website

Yes, I've been once and twice and I I've been in the Baptist Church here the

Baptist Baptist Church okay, the Baptist Church, hopefully there would be good but You need to study what

Christianity actually teaches. Okay What the Trinity is what salvation is?

So that you understand why people are saying you're going to hell If you read the essentials of the

Christian faith, you'll see there are areas we can say that about You're going to hell if you deny the resurrection you deny that Jesus is

God. Okay, that's what's going on Okay Okay, mr.

Matt, I think I'm gonna watch you on YouTube. Okay, we love Jesus and I love

Jesus He I believe in Jesus, but I Can yes,

I can accept that on issues Trinity, but I can describe it but I love

Jesus and I want to die and rise with him. Okay. Okay. Thank you very much Mr.

Matt, I'm from Indonesia. I'm Sorry, if I have a bad English Okay, I mean

I'm trying but I have difficulty hearing people sometimes I've I'm 64 and my hearing is not very good.

Sorry Okay, all right, well god bless all right

So Josh is in Hey, Matt, how you going? It's going. I was hoping to look one

This people told me they wanted to come in and talk This is why I did this and now one of these people don't come in I'm so tired of this kind of thing that you know, these people in their chat rooms.

I'll say let's talk They go. Okay, and they never do What is wrong with them?

They're they're afraid Come on. I don't know. Hey, um, I just had a question regarding the doctrine of the

Trinity Obviously before the New Testament It wasn't a doctrine. It wasn't, you know,

Jesus was known as the Messiah, but we didn't know in what form Necessarily he was coming in Similarly with the

Holy Spirit, so you wouldn't have had a Trinitarian doctrine before the New Testament. Would you agree with that?

Yeah Would it be possible that there are other persons of Within the makeup of God that is just not mentioned or talked about by by Jesus Well, no, why wouldn't that be the case because you can't say you don't argue from what is not there

You argue from what is there So to say there maybe there's more than three persons maybe there's actually

Venetians Venetian person from the Andromeda galaxy who are in the Godhead in the eighth dimension you see

When you argue from what it isn't there what it might be then anything's possible, right

And then you get to be ridiculous But let me run something by you this is something that most oneness people will not be able to handle

Okay, you ready? Sure, let's work with what let's talk about personhood. It'll go one person two person three person four person.

Okay Yeah now So personhood

You're a person. I'm a person Now we both recognize each other's

Existence right can say you and yours me and mine. You're self -aware. I'm self -aware We can reason we can think we can you know, talk things like that.

That's those are attributes of personhood, right? Yeah, okay. Now, let's assume God is one person

Let's work with that From eternity. God is one person one single person now

From eternity past one person. How does he exhibit personhood?

If he's by himself forever with nothing around is

Their awareness of others. No Can you have fellowship? No Does he have anyone to love?

No Any communication? No Reciprocity. No now you self -aware

And now what? Good could you could you not say the same thing about if you

Had a newborn baby and put them in a room by themselves and they had never witnessed another another person or another living thing like wouldn't you be able to attribute the same a

Newborn is on the same thing as God because newborn baby comes into existence. It's created by God we're talking about the nature of God and a

Baby is limited to physical senses in the physical brain and develops where God is not a different category

Right Right. Okay. So when we talk about the issue of personhood with God, that's the discussion

Since God is supposed to be eternal. There's no infancy. So that's just different right there. How is it that he could express personhood and That is a difficulty in the idea of the eternal nature of God.

Now, here's another in one this view Now, here's another question And would it be torture to take a man or a woman take a man put him into a room with no light

No heat, no cold just neutral body temperature neutral temperature He's got a bed, but you know, you know sleep and No communication with anybody

Not ever allowed to leave can't see and that's his existence.

Would that be Torture Yes, it would be yeah

Well, when we look at this, we're made the image of God Genesis 126 if that's torture for us Is that torture for God for an eternity by himself?

With no fellowship no expression no reciprocity since God is love for John 4 8 for eternity

Love is not expressed received or manifested I don't know.

I think you could put that into a different discussion like the There are certain needs or requirements of us as humans and if you deprive us of pretty much all senses

It's we're very different beings to God, so I'm not sure that's true does God have senses does he have senses

He I You get into you'd have to define what senses means, right?

Yeah How about this does God aware of other things besides himself

Sure, so he I would say he would have senses but he would just in a different ways to how we're describing it

Yeah, okay. So here's a problem if he has if it would you know senses in our physical senses

We get that but if God is aware of things other than himself Before he created anything.

There's nothing to be aware of Yeah, so then then in that sense, he's not doesn't possess any senses.

Mm -hmm. So it's another So so I understand. I'm not

I'm not arguing against Trinitarianism because I know I'm a trinity. Yeah. No, no sure.

So so it was it was more What what would you be argument against there being a fourth being in the

We're gonna work one two, three and four remember That's okay, they're gonna be

Unitarians their oneness people they're listening Yeah and then some of them have never heard this before I haven't ever thought of this before and Let's show you how the

Trinity makes more sense This is just a different way of doing it I mean biblically

I can back it up left right up down in and backwards forwards, but let's talk about this other stuff

Okay, because when you discuss the issue of personhood because of the Trinity three persons are one person.

They say it's one person If they say God's not a person then what is he but they say they don't know they might as well be

Muslim Because there's some issues here We have to be able to know to some degree self -revealed and Jesus is a representation of God the

Father He was one three and Jesus has personhood we can say that he has those as well Those in certain attributes, well, we can extrapolate and if God is eternally one person, but then there's no sense awareness

No, we're not saying senses like touch, but there's no sensation awareness of anything around him He is alone for an eternal amount of time without manifesting love or mercy or grace or fellowship or anything

This is problematic within the oneness idea Because it it it implies that the completeness and manifestation of God's character in nature doesn't exist or manifest

Until something else comes into existence But this implies a problem in what's called the a sea of tea of God that God is eternally self -sufficient is self -contained and needs nothing else

Now they might say well applies to the Trinity, but there's something else. We have an advantage in the Trinity that they don't I've even read material from oneness what says

Trinitarians can explain a lot of stuff But that they can't but we'll get into other stuff.

So oneness has a set of problems It doesn't express fellowship with God in the eternal sense.

He's by himself. There's nothing to have fellowship with no reciprocity No awareness of others and it's it's like there's not really personhood there now

That's not necessarily the case because if he's thinking of himself Then he's thinking of himself forever

But nobody else no other no love though So there's problems there. All right, let's work with two persons if we have two persons, then we have a

Solution to some of the problems but not all if we have two persons now gonna have fellowship

So one person two persons fellowship talking communing. Hey, how are you doing? I'm doing fine.

I'm doing fine. Thank you Like that. Okay, and you have this interaction now we can have reciprocity

We can have the manifestation of personhood and we can have the awareness of others Now that would solve the problems that seem to exist inside the idea of single personhood

But there's a problem that resides inside of it What is the fellowship and what is this exchange of let's just say information fellowship love let's just say love this idea of love now my wife and I we love each other and it's expressed and the reality of love exists inside of me and It exists inside of her when she's not throwing something at me because I'm being a jerk, you know as usual so she loves me

But this love itself. I can't take it out and go. Hey, here it is That's how much

I gave her today was this much love? See, it's got little polka dots in it a couple of things over there in the side

If I let go it floats and it moves with the wind. I can't take it out and say this is what it is It's an abstraction that occurs in here

This abstraction of love is a fundamental part of my personhood

But this is what's strange My wife and I don't have what's called perichoresis

Perichoresis is the teaching that in the Trinity the three minds the three persons interdwell

Each other because there's divine simplicity They just are in Mutual in this my wife and I don't have that.

She's downstairs with our daughters and I'm up here. So we're not perichoresis right now

All right But in God if he's one God the two would be in a state of pair it would have perichoresis

But this would mean then that that which is exchanged between them is an abstraction

This would further mean that in the nature of this God Of just two persons there be a fundamental aspect of their essence of the essence of the

God which is impersonal which is a kind of Abstraction love is exchanged

Hellos are exchanged. These are abstractions. There's nothing else it exists and so it would the problem arises in that it appears to be that there is a

Fundamental aspect of God's essence that is non -personal in the item that is exchanged.

Namely. Let's say love That's problematic because it suggests there's a fundamental aspect of God that is non -personal but God is personal by nature

Though we have a paradox contradiction that seems to arise It could be fared out even more but this

I'm just using love it works with mercy compassion and other things now Let's say there's three persons

Okay, three persons one two, three all right, so that means the father and the son could have the exchange of the fellowship that is accommodated or accomplished by the

Holy Spirit So the father and the Holy Spirit the son mediates between them

The father mediates between the other two and the spirit between the other two So that that which is exchanged within God is no longer impersonal but personal and the most fundamental aspect of God's nature and his being is personhood and personness personality and stuff like that and not import that which is impersonal and So the

Trinity and there are people who write about this stuff and they get far more details I'm just trying to make it understandable at the basic level.

So the Trinity then becomes the most efficient unit of The manifestation of eternal personhood

Without there being an aspect of impersonal quality that exists as part of the essence of what that is

We're single singularity Problems duality less problems

But now we have the issue of the fundamental nature of the impersonal being a fundamental aspect of God's nature

And that's that seems to be very problematic but in Trinitarianism The each member can be the mediator of the other two and be that thing that's exchanged inside what we call perichoresis

Now this may be philosophically difficult to comprehend but at least on paper we're going okay.

I can see how that would work But since God is maximally efficient maximally perfect Then the logic we add to this is to say for then for persons means it's not maximally efficient

The minimalistic purity of who God is seems to be residing in the issue of a

Trinitarian essence because it's minimalistically perfect by nature and Work for then you have

Well just for this you have something more than the minimals necessary and I haven't thought of the fortness issue yet And so this is why that I think like this sometimes and I've been reading a list of the worrying

But I've thinking about this for years now. Why is God a Trinity and Then some people have said they've read some books about this.

We've talked had many conversations and I'm putting it together So this is a hard concept to articulate.

So this is why Philosophically Trinitarianism makes more sense than Unitarianism or Binatarianism.

That's just one aspect Okay, that makes sense so Just just to summarize why there wouldn't be a fourth person.

It's because only three is essential and It'll be an argument from inefficiency for any more than three because it is unnecessary

And not yeah not necessary Necessary to the being three is the minimal necessity which seems to be self necessary and four is not self necessary If it's not self necessary and it's not necessary not part of the necessity of who

God is who exists necessarily Okay, so You mentioned before that you that there was some biblical references as well

That you might have been able to get into on this More just more just like besides besides the argument from it is unnecessary and therefore it's it's inefficient like the inefficiency of a fourth person

I just want to see if there's any other No, I don't have anything in Scripture that that that necessitates that that I'm aware of let me show you something here

I'm doing I'm still working through a lot of this. Okay. Yeah So here this is uh, this is this paragraph right here is the same paragraph here but with Scripture references

Yeah, let me just make it a bit bigger Okay, I put X's in When I had to fill it in like for example

God is neither included in space nor absent from it That's a true statement because we conclude that from the whole of Scripture, but his necessity and he created the universe

So but but this statement is an interesting statement Because if he's the creator of the universe then he's not included in it

And that's not necessarily something like Genesis 1 1 through 3 John Well, I go to yeah,

I could go John 1 1 through 3 also and Colossians 1 16 through 17.

I'll do 15 now do 16 through 17 and so These are the kinds of verses that we use to Demonstrate that this statement is true, but they don't in themselves say it

So we would say that God is not included in space because he's the creator of space as G father son

And that the father here, I mean a son relationship Well, that's a logical necessity from the idea of him being the creator is before all things

Well, if he's before all things then I could go to Ephesians 1 4 and Through 7 roughly talks about that as well.

So you see it's like, okay Where's it say that and I've been racking my brain every now and then trying to find other scriptures that fit

I don't want to make the scriptures fit what I want. I want to it's going to be supported scripturally

So goodness mercy love holiness, etc are revealed by him as an expression of his nature

Well, that's true. And the way we could say this is from Matthew 12 34 or Jesus says out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks

But that doesn't necessarily Necessitate that goodness mercy love holiness are revealed by him as an expression of his nature

But it suggests something like that. We can extrapolate that so you see this is what

I'm struggling with This is where I'm at with this right now make sense Yeah so I'm working through it and This is what

I'm doing on my show you this Come on, get up here. This is

Oh Wrong one. Hold on. I'll get this over here. I'll show what I'm doing. I'm actually teaching on patreon.

I'll to finish it up I do another patreon video tomorrow, but this is what

I'm doing. I've taken that statement there and breaking it up and then doing like three sentences at a time as I go through and then show the scriptures and then

I talk through them of what they are and there's a trillion and stuff like this and So these are the focus points

I'm now I'm going to start probably tomorrow I'll do Points four five and six and then

I have the scriptures and I said talk through them And then the funny thing is when I talk through them.

I teach myself new stuff as I'm talking through them It's just what happens. Anyway, mm -hmm, you know

Cool, so I've got one one follow -up question to to this As as the three persons we have obviously the records in the

Bible and what can be evident of the manifestations or the and forgive me for if I'm using the wrong terminology, but the manifestations or The attributes of special person, yeah the expressions and they seem to Fit nicely with how this how the you know, the narrative or the story or all that type of thing

You know God the Father and and Jesus the Son both have spoken audibly to people

Recorded in the Bible right the Holy Spirit not necessarily So just the differences between those

The Holy Spirit does speak to people just so you know No, he does but but it's not he doesn't speak audibly as Recorded in the

Bible. Yes, he does. So as he does did you give an example? Sure Let's go back over to here

The point the point was more like the are there specific attributes of each of the person hoods that are necessity that are

Necessary for each other or are they just being revealed in a way? In which

God wills it if that makes sense, I want to go over that a little bit Because I think

I know what you're saying But we need to define it a little clarify it the Holy Spirit said Set apart for me Barnabas all for the work, which

I've called them. That's just one of the several examples Right, sorry, where is this?

I'm looking at X 13 to 2. Sorry X that ain't it? Okay, cool. There's other verses.

In fact if you were to Go to let's see gonna make sure I'm gonna stop sharing.

I mean not that let's do this and then I'll go over here and Redo my screen here in a sec.

I got so much going on. Okay and Trinity. There we go And I'll show you something

There we go. I can I can read put this back in here. So you can see in X 829 you aren't if you can read it

But it says and the Spirit said to Philip go over and join this chariot That's X 829 in X 11 12 and the

Spirit told me to go with them making no distinction Distinction these six brothers also accompanied me and then what

I read X 13 to while they were Worshipping the Lord and fasting the Holy Spirit said set apart for me Barnabas and Saul, etc so the

Holy Spirit absolutely does speak and has a will and Searches the hearts and We have fellowship with the

Holy Spirit as well okay, and so so would you say that they're that they're right that they they are actual discernible differences between The three persons in terms of their their role or something and and does that?

Like Like any a theory and this is just me throwing it out

There would be God obviously has knowledge of the future and knows how

Things are to play out. And so he is wait. Wait. Now you're now you're talking about There's another sorry to interrupt you there.

No, that's fine There's more to what you're saying, but I want to focus on one thing at a time When you talk about differences, there's what's called the ontological and economic

Trinity on the economic, let's see What is it? See? Oh, I know

I did that article that way. So the ontological Trinity deals with The study and the being of the essence each of the three persons of the

Godhead are divine have equal attributes Omniscience on the presence holiness when we speak of how they relate to each other in the world.

We're speaking of the economic Trinity Economic from the Greek oikonomikos, which means related to the arrangement of activities

So to be overly simplistic We could see here's some examples.

The father sent the son, but the son did not send the father. Okay? Jesus came down from heaven to do the will of the father

Jesus performed a redemptive work the father did not Jesus is the only begotten the father is not

And it goes on like that and so we see differences and it goes on with the Holy Spirit as well

So that's called the economic Trinity. So yes, it's certainly biblical that stuff

Sure. Yeah. No, I think that that probably answers my question. It was it was more

Other other three persons. Do they have distinct differences from each other? But because they are one they

They are like the three pieces of the puzzle that you put together But the puzzle pieces are themselves slightly different or is it that they are all the same and they are all one

But they have just been revealed to all certain parts or aspects of them have been revealed to us

In specific ways. It's the latter. You don't want to say parts because that's called partialism and That's a heresy, but sometimes we just get stuck with how we word things

So this is called divine simplicity is the teaching that God is without parts, but is instead a single metaphysical essence

He is simple not compound hence divine simplicity He's not made up of various compartments like goodness love and justice that combine to form a whole

Nor are the three persons in the Trinity to be seen as three parts and make up the totality of God instead

He is goodness love justice, etc He is Trinitarian by nature to reiterate.

There are no components No sections in his essence divine simplicity is biblical and properly represented

Represents God as a Trinity. So sure The one this people will have a problem with this stuff when they look at the economic

Trinity because they're gonna say it's all the same Person doing this but then they when they define personhood then they have problems

They stub their own intellectual toes when we start asking the difficult questions There's been evidence for the last few debates.

I've been in on this, but so Trinitarianism answers more of the questions and Makes more sense when you look at Scripture and not brainwashed by one this false doctrine

Yeah, so what we'd say is divine simplicity Means there's only one thing that's

God not parts, but he reveals himself as three persons

That's it. Yeah, that makes sense I think it's um, it's one of those things obviously to get your head around Philosophically how the

Trinity works and not having other examples That we can kind of compare it to just just for us to actually process it is difficult

But I appreciate all that looks like there's a couple articles. I'm gonna have to read on your website to Understand a bit more

Awesome. Hey, I did have one one other question, but sure Um, does

God have emotions and Yeah, obviously they're different to Human emotions because we can be controlled by emotions all the emotions can affect us whereas emotions wouldn't necessarily affect

God Well, God isn't affected by his emotions. The emotions are Composite or part of what he is in his essence.

They're not a separate some something he manifest him perfectly consistently so I think it's more like in the

Bible where it says like God is a jealous God is that Is that actually this is is is that actually describing the his his emotion or?

Yes, is that? Or is it impossible for God to be jealous and it is more how

We are to understand him like in human terms because we understand the emotion of jealousy, right?

Yeah, remember he reveals himself Anthropomorphically all revelation of God is analogical to some degree

Even the person of Christ is analogical because we don't see divinity. We see the manifestation of divinity in human form

So when God expresses himself, he's expressing himself to us in a condescending way not an insulting pejorative way

But he has to lower himself down to our level. We go. Oh, that's called happy. You know, that's called love oh, we get it and so he his love and happiness and joy and all that stuff he has are perfect and and consistent with his totality from eternity and Of course we are not if you hung around with me for very long you did you say that's right, especially in Matt He's got a lot of issues a lot of problems, but God doesn't you know, he manifests all this perfectly

It's all part of the essence of the divine simplicity of what he is So your questions are good questions, but you in particular

I've noticed not it's not a complaint You ask good questions and you're on the border.

I just want to sound arrogant You're on the border of in a good way of Really progressing it to even to a better understanding of things because you ask the kind of questions that are just beyond What you understand and I'm seeing well, you wouldn't ask that if you knew this over here, but you're here.

I'm not mocking I'm not condemning. I'm not but I'm saying you're doing a good job. I see this guy's got it he's moving and you're asking the right questions and So in light of that I would say read up on perichoresis divine simplicity economic ontological

Trinity and study those and the person work of the Holy Spirit and then

You know not saying and then we'll talk no it's like yeah because what will happen is it's going to generate more questions that you're gonna have and How it all works and I can tell you know, you got a good good head on your shoulders.

You're asking good questions Mmm My wife she asked me questions,

I'm like My buddy today, did you ask about his wife? No, did you ask about the car?

No, did you ask about it? If they'd be what no, what would you do? We just talked about whatever, you know

Yeah, why are you not married? Are you are you I am actually okay, so, you know then right?

Yeah That's good. Now. I'm going through at the moment like I've Had one of those

I don't know Awakenings in terms of hey, I actually need to really understand what I believe because I say

Like yes, I accept the Trinity, but if I was to give a defense for it It would be very weak

And so I actually need to understand some of these things what one one one quick question,

I don't know how much you know about the the Catholic Church and its requirements for Unders for accepting or understanding or being agnostic about Like for example the doctrine of the

Trinity if you're like, hmm, I'm actually not sure but I'm not gonna say yes I'm not gonna say no. Are you are you not allowed to be?

Is that is that heretical in the Catholic Church? I haven't talked to a knowledgeable Catholic about that particular how much knowledge must a person have

Because in Catholicism a catechumen is someone who's gone through Discipling before they can get to the place of being baptized must be taught the official

Catholic doctrine So it presumption is that yes, they will understand these things sufficiently haven't been taught sufficiently

That's the general idea of what I know But in particular they have said things like well if you're really, you know

You don't want to have a full knowledge. The intention was this and that and you're okay So they have a similar kind of a view

As well as we do is views like that, let me show you you want to know the

Trinity go here Just go calm org forward slash Trinity and it'll forward you to this.

You want the Trinity chart? This is how the Trinity's arrived at that's how it's arrived at this way one

God and they all Manifest things this like this.

That's how it's arrived at It's perfectly logical one God So you write a piece of paper one

God and then you write the father's called God the son's called God The Holy Spirit's called God you write those three down, you know, and he right.

Well, wait a minute. They each Speak they each have a will they each are eternal

They each love for a minute. Are they one person or three persons of one person?

How does one person talk to himself? If someone else is out there he's talking to not my will but your will be done that's different persons

And so we don't have to add we just say this is what it is It's the for example, it's the oneness who butcher this stuff, you know

For example, Jesus says not my will but your will be done Well, that means the person of the flesh is talking to the person of the

Spirit Well, if that's the case and how is Jesus one person with two natures? So it risks the hypostatic

Union and it risks the hype the communicatio idiom atom and So what they do is then they start differentiating and they move towards an historian ism another heresy in order and then they had to use more heretical glue to make things fit and patch their theological holes and So this is what's happening with them

But Trinitarian it we don't do that We go well one God and they're each there's three that are called

God But they speak to each other they love They each have separate wills three persons

Simple it's it's the others who have to go to extraordinary lengths to make their heresy

Fit into the scriptures and yet the arrogant oneness will mock the

Trinity and Say that we twist scripture Show me how show it to me.

There's the there it is, you know Show me how this is a twisting of scripture.

Look there's no explanations in here Mm -hmm, just categorizations.

Check it out. If I'm wrong, show me I'm wrong and Then you might have something to talk about against a

Trinity, but if you can't the Trinity still stands So with some of these the philosophical arguments

For the necessity of the Trinity or Trinitarian nature of God before the

New Testament those Besides the philosophical argument you wouldn't have evidence that God was a trend in Trinitarian in nature besides a philosophical argument.

Would that be correct? No, so we have evidence of Jesus and the

Holy Spirit like you know, that's exactly this graph that you've got Do we have evidence of the actual existence and personhood?

Within God in the Old Testament alone Okay, absolutely. Yeah, right

I can show them to you too. I'm looking for an article I wrote I'm trying to find it.

It's a Trinity In the Old Testament, let's see if I I'm remembering it correctly because I wrote this so long ago sure

Thank you. It's more it's more like it's more left -field question. I'm just thinking like philosophers back then, you know before the

New Testament and they came across this issue and You know, was there actually strong enough evidence to Firmly say that in the yeah

Here watch this there actually there were No, I didn't know I've never verified this but my professor in seminary who was a

Hebrew scholar He is a Hebrew professor scholar His idea of a good time is taking the

Hebrew Old Testament and reading it and he said that there were

Jews back then and they'd written about they got these the articles or information written where they were talking about God being a plurality

And that were actual people who are saying that here's some of the reasons why I'm gonna go to I'll show you some stuff, okay

Can you see that is that big enough? Yep, okay in the beginning

God created heavens and the earth the earth was formless and void and the spirit of God is

Moving over the surface of the waters and God said let there be light God and the

Spirit of God and he spoke, okay God said let us make man in our image.

Okay So could would you not equate to like if I said there's

Matt and then there's Matt's spirit Matt's spirit is a part of let me keep going.

Let me just keep going. You'll see it One or two doesn't do it and after a while, you're going. Okay, I'm starting to see what's happening.

Okay, okay So look at this. Let us go down and confound our language. Okay? Okay. Well when you go here

Thus says the Lord the Redeemer and the one who formed you from the womb Now this is

Yahweh's name Your Redeemer and The one who formed you from the womb.

Okay. He's the one who did it. Yes, right I am the Lord the maker of all things stretching out the heavens by myself

Spreading out the earth all alone So he's saying as a creator. He's all alone right

Right, and so when he said let us make man in our image The us cannot be anything other than reference to God who refers to himself in plurality right

Hero Israel the Lord our God is one. That's the Hebrew word echad Okay, echad deals with composite unity

It's like a one cluster of grapes Where yachid means one as in one pencil?

One grape type type thing. Okay, that's how God is referenced as right?

Well, check this out Then this is Yahweh and Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh out of heaven

God's talking I sent a plague among you after the manner of Egypt I stood your young men by the sword along with their captured horses

And I made a stench of your camp rise up in your nostrils you have not returned to me declares Yahweh I Overthrew you as God overthrew

Sodom and Gomorrah God you're wrong.

God speaks about himself in these weird ways. I Will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and the supplications so that they will look

On me whom they have pierced the mourn for him as one mourns for an only son

You go, you know the people in the Old Testament. This is interesting. What's going on here? Now when

Abram was 99 years old Yahweh remember the capital L capital O capital

R capital D is Yahweh you go to a bod. Hey, right? There it is right there YHWH the

Tetragrammaton. All right, that's for the viewers So now when Abram was 99 years old

Yahweh Appeared to him to Abram and said to him. I am God Almighty since so Yahweh appeared to him and said

I'm God Almighty and In Genesis 18 1 now the

Lord appeared to him by the Oaks of Mamre as he was sitting in the tent Door in the heat of the day the

Lord appeared him Yahweh appeared him when he lifted up his eyes and look behold Three men were standing opposite him gone.

So he the Lord appears when he lifts up his eyes Three are standing there other men

But we know that the men aren't actually God but notice how the text is written Mm -hmm because it's

Trinitarian ish All right. How about this? God spoke further the

Moses said to him I am Yahweh and I appeared to Abram Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty But by my name

Yahweh did not make myself known to them because Yahweh was the name given by God to Moses in Exodus 3 14

God said to Moses I am who I am that's That's from I yeah, it has to do with the verb to be okay.

I am who I am though She shall say I am has sent me to you. Okay, and Do we get from here we get the the issue of Yahweh his name of Yahweh I am so when we go to Exodus 6 2 & 3

God spoke further to Moses said I am Yahweh. He's identifying himself as Yahweh Well, check this out

Here now my words God talking If there is a prophet among you

I Yahweh shall make myself known to him in a vision I shall speak to him in a dream not so with my servant

Moses. He is faithful in all my household with him I speak mouth -to -mouth even openly and not in dark sayings that he beholds the form of Yahweh You know what?

There's more I've seen enough

Matt It goes on like this. Okay. All right, and so here

Yeah, let me show you this too, that's the Lord you speak to Moses face to face

Okay, there's a man speak to this friend, but look at this You cannot see my face for no man can see me and live

All right, so that's 33 2320 but look at 33 11, which was just right there

Moses spoke face to face the Lord to speak to Moses face to face.

You cannot see my face He spoke face to face. Can't see my face face to face means a personal encounter and Yet just nine verses later.

You can't see my face Or no man can see me and live but he spoke face to face

Who's he talking to the plurality of God is there in the

Old Testament and lest I forget the Holy Spirit Let me go over to here The Spirit of God has made me and the breath of the

Almighty gives me life So the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament the pre -incarnate

Christ is in the Old Testament The father's in the Old Testament and we go to the New Testament. It becomes even more interesting when we apply those things to there

Okay. Yeah Awesome. All right. Thanks Matt.

I appreciate it. You've answered a lot of questions today Mui good. Oh Advanced Spanish muy good.

Oh, I said, okay All right Anybody else want to I'll put the link and if you guys want to come in and ask questions or whatever

Or I can try if you guys want I can explain why one this theology is so heretical I'm gonna jump out.

Thanks Matt. I appreciate it. All right, Josh. Okay watching Okay Okay, for those of you who are just texting what do you think so far

Take a drink some tea over here. I'm not one this Matt though. I'd love to To what to be oneness?

If you guys want to come on in and just ask questions or talk, that's fine But I you know,

I'm gonna tell you why if no one comes in I'll tell you why one this is damnable Downable heresy

That's why we do that Okay, could you please do that? Yeah, thanks. I will I'm gonna get my

Outlines and one this going something. There's some place over here. I got so many things and I'll get that open first.

I put my notes in as I'm talking All right. Let's see. I Have so much.

Could you please explain that day nine six and how it doesn't prove oneness? Okay, let me get my things opened up Let's see outline to see

I had it a little while ago. Let me swing do this.

I thought I'd put it right there and Give myself a little mental break while I'm looking for it because I want to Put my notes into it while I'm teaching it

So hold on Calvinism kovid apologetics

Catholicism government Eastern Orthodoxy science SDA Maybe that's what

I was starting. I didn't start the other one yet. Maybe that's what it was How long the one this yes

Hey Remy Okay, did you have questions or No You're awfully muffled you're awfully muffled for me

I'm straining to hear you All right, what is the difference between the hypothetic union communicator with your motto

The hypostatic union is the teaching and I'll get to Isaiah 9 6 next The hypostatic union is a teaching that in the one person of Christ are two distinct simultaneous natures

The communicator idiom atom says that the attributes of both natures are ascribed to the single person

So Jesus is one person Okay with two natures inside of him inside of his physical whatever and So in the one person are two natures a divine nature and a human nature

The communicator idiom atom says that the attributes of the divine nature and the human nature are ascribed to the single person

So that the person would say I am Thirsty, I will be with you always even to the end of the earth

So the person claims actually the attributes of both the divine nature and the human nature so the communicator idiom atom means the communication of the attributes where the attributes of those natures are

Communicated to the person the one person has the attributes of both natures That's what that is

Okay Isaiah 9 6. Let me go to Isaiah 9 6 and I'll show you There's so much stuff.

I get fixed. Oh, I know about fixing things. Let me go like that These are my this is my early notes on oneness

Which I could share with you guys. But anyway, let me do this go to Isaiah 9 6. Okay Now I'll share the screen so you can see it

This is what it says. Why is that? That's weird. Why is that go over there like that? Huh?

I was here 9 6 for a child will be born to us a son will be given to us and the government will rest on his

Shoulders and I ask people the one this people I'm gonna ask him serious question. Let's say what does it mean?

That the government will rest on his shoulders I'm just asking you know, and they're saying you're not paying attention to the text.

That's exactly what I'm doing. What is the text mean? his name

How many names is that it's singular right his name singular, right noun singular

His name will be called his one name will be called wonderful counselor mighty God eternal father prince of peace

So what they'll do is they'll say see he's the eternal father Well, is he the wonderful counselor is it?

Yes. Is he the prince of peace? Yes His name is that His name is wonderful counselor, or is it

Jesus? Oh, no, it's Jesus. Then. Why does it say his name is wonderful counselor? Well, he's pointing about attributes of him.

Okay. So then this is an attribute of fatherness in him a Peace in him of mighty

God. What does it mean? And I ask questions not trying to be confusing It's just what does it mean?

I want answers. I Show you guys something.

This is the book of the generations of Adam Adam means Man Okay, it means man

Created male and female. This is Genesis 5 Seth Then Enos Actually, I just remembered

I have this Find this

I'll show you what I what it is why I'm bringing this up about the issue of the name Okay, let's see

I Think I have it in here Maybe I don't thought

I did because what it is Yeah here I do. I knew I did All right

So this is the word Adam and it means man his son Seth means appointed

Enos it's a son of Seth means mortal Kenan the son of Enos means sorrow

So Mahal is a blessed God Jared Enoch Methuselah Lamech Noah, this is the genealogy of Genesis 5 man appointed mortal sorrow blessed

God shall come down teaching his death shall bring to the despairing rest comfort it's a typological representation of the incarnation and the gospel message

Okay so When you do this you can get a sentence out of it, it's like, you know, the

Indians where's running bear? Oh, he's playing with Prancing deer. Okay.

So Methuselah means when he dies it will come or his death shall bring this kind of thing is going on in the issue of Genesis Excuse me,

Isaiah 9 6 When we think of the word name like my name is

Matthew Jesus names Matthew And what they what Matthew means incidentally is gift of God the word

Nathan Nathan. It means to give and So God's name

Yahweh means I am so when he says his name it carries this idea of the name representing the essence and the character

So his name is wonderful counselor character of it the mighty God character the eternal father character the

Prince of Peace character This is interesting because his name will be called these things but it's talking about the essence of the nature of what it is in a

Generic kind of a thing as it represents his aspects in his work in his ministry. Just as in in this each person represented

Something that was related to the character That's what's going on here So some people will say well

Matt that means then that Jesus is the eternal father If he is the eternal father, then he can't be a representation of the father.

You see if I have If I have

I don't know, I'd be a good example get something around here. I Could use my gun, but I won't

Anyway doesn't matter so I guess explain this so if Something represents something else.

I know what I'll do the ring This represents my marriage vow. This is not the marriage vow.

This is a ring a wedding ring the representation of this

Ring this represents my marriage commitment my verbal commitment my commitment.

It's a covenant sign The representation of something is not the something

It's a representation of it So when we go to Hebrews 1 3, he's the radiance of his glory in the exact representation of his nature

Whose nature? God and as after he spoke long ago in the fathers and the prophets in many portions of many ways

These last days have spoken to us in his son. Oh, he's speaking as a father in the Old Testament Right, that's who

God Almighty is, right? But now he's spoken of in his son Now they're gonna say well, wait a minute the son of the father that there's the same thing.

That's just the oneness Whom he appointed heir of all things through whom also he made the world

He the son is the radiance of his glory whose glory

The father's glory God's glory and the exact representation of his nature.

That's God's nature So he is the radiance that he there is the Son Jesus is the representation of his the

God's nature in this case the father He would say So he isn't

The father because he's a representation of the father But then the oneness will come back and they'll say something like wait a minute

You gotta understand this man. You understand There we go that Jesus In his human self was speaking to the divine self.

I've heard that from oneness people Well, what's personhood? Personhood is that you have a mind you have a will you can think you can speak

I'm gonna open up a windows getting hot in here and things like that if that's the case then

We have two persons right there But the oneness is stuck because they're gonna play logical footsies with heresy

I Play footsies with heresy what they're gonna do is they're gonna say look The thought this this the person of Jesus because I asked is he a person they'll say yes

Does he have two natures? Too much wind on me Is that gonna blow the mic?

Let's see. There we go. So the persons look at me back in focus

All right Working good, okay Now Okay, so in oneness theology, who's

Jesus and we'll talk about this Jesus is the one person with two natures

He says I am hungry and I'll be with you always the eye is claiming the attributes of both natures and he's only one person is not two persons if they were to say that in the body of Christ are two distinct persons

Then that would be an historian ism And historian ism says in the one body is a person called the

God and another person called a Human a human person.

There's two persons and they speak at different times But that's a problem

Because if there's two persons not one person, then how is the sacrifice of divine value?

How is the sacrifice actually God where he says they look upon me whom they have pierced Because it would not be the divine that is being pierced because the person is not represented as singularity

But as two persons in the story an ism and only one of them was crucified that would have to be the human person

Therefore the divine aspect is not involved in the crucifixion and did not make it a part of the payment

This is why the story an ism is so damnable in its heresy and oneness Dances goes to bed and fornicates with this heresy

It does this in the sense that what it says is well the body of Christ is the human nature speaking to To God to God in heaven, you know, for example

Jesus is in the garden garden of Gethsemane and He's praying Withdrew from the stone throw and knelt down and began to pray saying father

If you're willing to remove this cup from me not my will but yours will be done Okay, so he's praying to the father now, here's the right question who is praying to the father

Is it the person of Jesus praying to the father? If they say yes, then

Jesus is a person with divine value who's praying to the father. Who's another person? That's two persons.

They refute their own oneness if they say no, it's the the human nature speaking to the divine nature

Well, then our father who's in heaven remember Matthew 11 12 Luke 6 6 12

Look live. I'm for our father who art in heaven this stuff about the prayer. Well, then that would not be an incarnation.

Would it? You've been in dwelling to the father and dwells me, but it's not an incarnation

If there's no incarnation, you don't have the truth. They look upon me whom they have pierced You don't have that out of Zechariah 12 10

So who's Jesus praying to they're gonna have to say he's praying to himself But if he's praying to himself, he's in heaven.

How is he in heaven? Now? They I've heard different explanations for this I've heard

Oneness try and make sense of it. And when I started asking their questions I really can't get very far because they just can't make sense of it

They don't know how to articulate what they think and they argue themselves in circles It's very difficult to find out exactly what

Official one this theology teaches about this because they don't always answer the same way

So who was Jesus praying to? If it's himself, then how could the father be in heaven if he's the father?

Well, if it was just this flesh playing praying to the spirit the spirit was out there Well, then there's no incarnation if he wants to say no the spirit of the father was in him

But the spirit of the father is also everywhere Then why is he addressing the father as another person as we define personhood?

If he's his own person There are questions that the oneness people cannot rationally answer they can answer them

Irrationally, and this is why what I will do with oneness people is if they're willing to have a serious

In -depth discussion. I will take notes from their answers Because I know for a fact that they're going to stub their toe on the logical rock of truth

And they won't be able to surmount the problems that are going to be discovered by examining their questions their issues logically

Now they're going to say to me though. The Trinity is illogical I've had many people over the years say the

Trinity is illogical. I say, okay Please Show me how it's illogical.

What I want to do is write down your statements make sure that your statements of what I'm writing is exactly what you're saying and Then we'll examine this to see if what you're saying is accurate.

It can we do that? And I've had people say well, yeah, let's do that. Not very often though and so They'll start and they they don't even define the

Trinity properly or they draw an improper conclusion and I have to Tell them no, that's improper

No, it is. It's right. No, it's a category error. No, you know, you're equivocating. No, you're this, you know

In fact, I was watching I've been entertaining myself lately by watching flat -earth videos where people who are knowledgeable about physics and science refute the

The stupidity of flat -earth stuff now just so you know, I love science and If I could go back and do things over again

I'd want to get a master probably about bachelors in biology evolutionary biology because I love that stuff

I don't believe it, but I'd want to do it. I love science I took all the advanced stuff in high school was exempt from stuff in college all science and math requirements

I was exempt from I took advanced stuff. Okay. The reason I'm saying that is I was listening to this guy

Understood a lot of what he was saying formulas and mass acceleration and kinetic energy and centripetal force and and Various things

I'm going. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, and something I have no idea what he's talking about But the point is okay. He made a statement.

I thought was really interesting It wasn't this exact wording, but he said the flat -earthers don't even know enough about science to know

How foolish they are in their argumentation and I went yep

Because I because I know some of the flat -earth arguments and they're just ridiculous. Okay. Well, anyway, sometimes the same kind of a thing happens here sometimes in that I'll be talking with someone and they'll make a logic error and I'll try and show them it's a logic error and They can't see it.

And I've actually had to say to people you need to go study logic You just study the proper law proper inference.

You just study why one thing does not necessitate another You have to understand what a syllogism is you have to understand what logical deduction abduction is

You got to understand these things if you're going to argue at this level and a lot of times they just don't in fact

I will read some of the comments that are made on the Facebook pages on these by these oneness people about the

Trinity but they don't understand what they're talking about and their statements don't necessitate the conclusions that they're they're you know hinting at and So this is why

I've offered the opportunity to come in here As I'm being nice, you know, you disagree you disagree, but let's talk and I'll put the

Link in again if you want to come in here oneness people if you want to come in, I'm not gonna be mad I'm not gonna mock you

Okay, I'm not out here to hurt you. All right So what's your thought on Colossians 2 12 and 13 is it stating that we these these spiritual renewal regeneration comes through faith

There's an off -topic I'll look at it really quickly but It says having been buried with him in baptism

In which you were raised up through him through faith in the working of God who raised him from the dead when you were dead In your transgressions and his uncircumcision of your flesh.

He made you alive together with him having forgiven us all our transgressions I don't think it deals with the issue there of the order salutes and So I don't think

I scripture really works there Let's see one is assumed that God is only the Father and they can't show scripture for this here's a it reminds me

Remy Sometimes what they will say is show me a verse that says God is three persons

You can't do it. Can you Trinitarian? This is an example of faulty logic. You can't do it

There's no verse that says God is a Trinity right or that there's three persons.

There's nothing like that, man I have so refuted a Trinity with that that statement that truth and they don't know

That that you don't have to have a statement in a 21st century context written about a doctrine

We understand written from 2 ,000 years ago You don't have to have it like that The Bible never mentions the word atheism, but it says the fool in his heart has said there is no

God Psalm 14 1 So it understands the idea of atheism, but doesn't use the word atheism well,

I Could use a logic back and I could say show me a verse in the Bible that says God is one person

It doesn't occur well, if they can't show that then why would they demand a certain standard of Linguistic necessity in the

New Testament as well or the Bible as well and you see their thinking is illogical

These are the kinds of things that they bring up It just don't make any sense, but they don't understand logic enough to be able to say that to see it.

Okay? Yeah Can you let me go ahead? Yeah now? Yeah any muffling or anything?

yeah, so I've also been dealing with oneness and modalism for half a year or more and One of my favorite go to verses script or passages because it's not one single verse

And I have yet to see anybody try to tackle it from a little scripture John chapter 12 verses 27 through 29 where Jesus invokes the

Father Glorify your name and the Father responds audibly

I have done I have done so and will do so again and the Apostles immediately after is

John writes and the Apostles heard the voice like a thunder None of them have explained this and could and I would

I would enjoy it But they can't but they can't if they could explain it it would go from Illusion, they would go from fiction.

They would never they would never go to scripture. Oh Yeah, I think I'm gonna memorize that pericope.

In fact, here's I'm gonna do Let's watch this This is what I do This is my outlines on oneness.

This is the very early stages of it It's only two pages long and I do verses examined and I'm gonna go here

X's mean. It's not yet finished and So John let's see.

Here we go. Whoops. Oh, come on. There we go. Okay, and Which means

I have to I see the X's over here, which means go look at that verse My Catholicism outline

I have a hundred and eighteen verses and I only have to re Re -examine the

X's once in a system. Anyway, so this is what I'm doing and it very good. There's another good verse

It is it's great and so is whoops

John 6 38 and 39 But I know that one really well, let's see now my soul has become troubled and what shall

I say father saved me from this hour But the purpose to come so the father is speaking

Okay, maybe someone this could come in and explain How is it that Jesus is speaking to the father if Jesus is the father and the voice came out of heaven

This is like the baptism the three So explain some more. Give me some more how they

React to it. I haven't really Studied enough in their reactions and how they how they answer and respond for it, but Needless to say that they'll just go into the false the false

Hypothesis presumption that God is simply the father and therefore right they just assume again that will

Jesus is just Giving an audience to himself and so then I've actually but then

I've responded in kind saying, okay, so that's great So essentially you're saying that you you took a tape recorder and told and gave and gave yourself a message

To giving yourself an order for the future and you forgot you gave yourself that message on and on that tape recorder

Played it back years later And you don't remember making it and you gave your in that and you play it back

Having amnesia of that particular event. Yeah, it tells you it tells you to do something, right?

It makes no sense And yeah, you were in that and then to go further and say you respond to that tape deck and it responds right back

Yeah, oh yeah This is how

I do my work. So anyway, let me show you guys what I do, but I think that's good There's a lot of good stuff right there

Let's See, I'll bring up my Catholicism one show you what I do. This is just nothing waste wasting time here

This is my outlines on Catholicism. This is how I do stuff so not a big deal, but it's what

I do and it's a 179 pages long. I do all kinds of research.

So this is the one this one I'm doing with there you go Well, anybody have any comments or questions anything want to add in oneness in Indonesia is a little quite different They say their statement of faith that they believe in the

Trinity of Father Son. Holy Ghost. Well, you have to understand how they're defining Trinity Simultaneous and distinct persons or not.

That's the question you got to ask. Oh Anybody else

Sure, go ahead Facebook group I'm in recently

Scripture John 17 verse 11 recently came over John where Jesus is asking, you know, the father that They be made one in him as Jesus is made in the

Father And so they try to argue against me and they didn't they didn't they they come

It's like they have a hard time understanding logic as you keep on pointing it and this is a clear indication

They don't not all run this because I'm not trying to insult anybody. I If I find you into I find when this points of view very interesting kind of like a

Psychologist would you know your intellectuals? Well, you're an intellectual of a different breed. I want to have it

I want to have talk between camps So the way they're really they're reading it is see

John chapter John chapter 17 verse 11 is Jesus saying he is the father Because he's one with the father

But they missed it last that the next part where it says they to be one with me as I am with you

So logic would dictate so a being Jesus is saying that I am one with B But they're saying a

Jesus is not one with the father. He is B. He is no longer a he is

Just B and both and you got two B's being one Well, you have a you have a logic problem where if Jesus is saying they should be one with me

Being they being those who believe and my disciples be one with me as I am one with the father then a

Being no longer a but a being B C now comes into question

C being the believer is now also B Because logic because logic dictates if C becomes a but a is actually

B Then all is B. It doesn't make any sense Right a lot of proper inference and that needs to be written out step by step or related objects.

But yeah It's be easy to lose people But yeah, yeah, there's a lot of good stuff out there.

I like this one I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me

Who's the I? Jesus Says I came down from heaven

To do the will of him who sent me that means he was in heaven and had to be sent from heaven by someone

How does that one just deal with that? Then it gets even more confusing when

Jesus says that It is for your benefit that I go away for if I go not away, then

I cannot send the comforter So both father and Jesus send the comforter

But I put they believe that they believe that the father sent Jesus and the father sends the

Holy Spirit So, how is it that Jesus is sending the Holy Spirit, but Jesus needs the father to send the

Holy Spirit If he is the father, right? I'm sorry.

Go ahead. Oh, yeah, there's all kind of stuff. Yeah Yeah, I'll be working on my outlines and trying to decide what to do with them

I want to sell them Could I put so much work into them or I make a little bit extra because I don't get a raise

I haven't had a raise in six years Or do I just put them out on karma say here you go, you know, you're probably end up doing

So John Q said Calvin is Oh logic is like kryptonite to a Calvinist. Oh man

Sorry, but I can't help it. Come on in Let's talk. We've waited two hours on one this but I'm gonna take an opportunity here to use a restaurant.

I'll be right back. Okay All you gotta do John Q is is type that into your browser and come on in I'll let you in in a second go back in the bathroom.

Hold on yeah, well just as we were saying earlier that the oneness make the

Presupposition that God Almighty is only the father by exclusivity Thus when when when you refer to say first Timothy 2 verse 16

It You know the argument that you like to say they like to bring up is John 1 chapter 1

Sorry, what John 1 chapter 1? You know in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the

Word was God Well, they believe that God there is the father only and therefore if the one the word logos

Was was God and therefore the logos is good father Meanwhile, it doesn't say anywhere in the scriptures

That Yahweh is only Called the father and is only known as the father

Sure, there is a scripture in Isaiah that says he is Our father, but it doesn't say he is

God the father in the in the book of Isaiah So when dealing with a oneness, it's very helpful to understand that they're seeing it

Through the eyes of their terminology their their fixed Dictionary as it would as it were to read say

When they when they read the word God, it's only the father. They don't see it as two or three

Therefore anytime you say well Jesus is God they'll agree with you They will agree with you that Jesus is

God But you but it's very important to be clear on what you mean by Jesus is

God Almighty Because when you speak to a oneness and they agree with you God, Jesus is God Almighty They're thinking

Jesus is the father almighty Yeah So it's

John Q gonna come in or just gonna make a comment and I'm back it up Now, where are the oneness people?

I thought these people want to see the one to come in and talk and and stuff They said they were interested Maybe they prefer just to insulting and inaccurate from a distance.

I Don't know Well, anybody have any comments or questions then says

Matt to himself Okay, oh

Hey, that was a good Let's see Brandon Gabby somebody

Okay Say something. Hi. Hi Matt This is

Brandon from Facebook Okay, are you oneness or what?

Yeah, yeah, I'm oneness. In fact, I was me who posted or other requested you to Engage in a discussion as you also

Okay Can you

Just I have trouble with people with light behind people I get headaches. Are you able to close those behind you?

I can certainly do that Okay Lot of people don't know

I have autism I'm hypersensitive to light and touch and so when

I see Thank you very much No, it's okay

I hate guitars so you have to get no, that's a joke I Apologize for entering late.

I think you mentioned 9 p .m But I I thought I thought this wasn't happening.

So which is why I probably woke up late maybe but I apologize It's all right. Oh, excuse me.

Oh It's just the two of us or do we have somebody else who would like to know go ahead you're in you're one this guy and Finally for two hours and one this person comes in and we can talk.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean I Wish there were a few of those. There were a few other me too

Okay, so so you've been you've been you've been you've been online now for the last two hours and no one else has come in I Don't remember another one is coming in.

Did it another one's come in? I don't remember if it was it might have been brief, but I don't remember

But so so so everybody else has left There are 42 people watching in two different venues

Facebook and YouTube we've had up to I think 50 or 60 here and it's released on the

Trinitarian oneness debate forum and No one's that I remember has showed up Except you

Okay. Okay Okay so I mean,

I I'm a one less person and I'm sorry to hear that Yeah, and I used to be a

Trinitarian Believer for many years and then I okay

I transitioned in the year 2014 Okay, you want to ask me something or you want to talk about something or want me to destroy your oneness or Yeah, I mean you can you can you're sure to pursue that Sure, I'd like to Okay, how about this really fast?

All I'll do is I'll share my screen That's just so that you can see what I'm typing and writing and things like that I'm not trying to trap you unless I tell you

I'm gonna trap you then I'll tell you. All right Okay, so These are my notes

I'm developing I developed lots of outlines, okay So let's do this.

I think instead of that I'm gonna do this Yeah, I'll do it. Yeah, I'll do it this way. Okay, sorry and So what is what is would you say a person is?

Is Are you asking in general terms or are you asking in Trinitarian terms?

So well, no in the context of let's just say the context of God is God a person Yes, I do believe

God is a person However, I would also like to maintain that he is not a he's not a tangible person like you and I are

But I do believe he's an individual if I may be more clear on that he's got he's got the ability to sort of have his own will to think to have emotions to relate and In terms of his identity, he's absolutely one

Just he's what he's absolutely one. He's solitary in nature He's absolutely one he he's an he's a single absolute individual

Okay. Yeah. Okay. You just yeah, so you say you say he's a single

Absolute individual. Yes. Okay. Well, that's the debate but as far as um,

As far as Definitions go these are just notes. Let's do this here. I'll clean this up later so Attributes of personhood he has a will can think would you say would you include also can speak?

say and say stuff like you Yours it's hard to type in really fast whoops

So would you agree that you know, these are some of the attributes of God of personhood

You know could have a will think speak Say you yours me mine

Have emotions relate one to another right though. You mean Yes, of course

God God is if it's personal he he would have He would have to use words like I myself

Good in all of that. Yeah, so it is God personal God is personal.

He's absolutely personal. So then here's a question if someone exhibits

The attributes I'm gonna do it this way. Oh, I don't have my thing done.

Okay, never mind a person hood Then is that someone a person?

Yes. Yes If if a person if if someone now when you say someone you you're gonna have to be obviously

We are talking in terms of who God is. So when you say whoever that someone is gonna be the same

God Yes, he's gonna be the same one lot of hero is right a lot of God is one

Lord, yes alright, so I Say, what's your first name? I'm Brandon.

My middle name is Gabby. Yeah, you can call it Brandon. Okay, Brandon So Brandon, I'm saying

I'm talking to you. You're a person. I'm a person. Yes. Yes, okay Okay, so is

Jesus a person Jesus is the yes. He is. He is a person.

He is the he's the solitary singular person of who God is And he is the embodiment of the incarnation of the father.

He is Yes, he's a person Yes, he is a person.

Okay. All right, and Does does Jesus have two natures or one nature?

Of course, he has two natures. See I'm goodness. Yeah, I'll just proceed I'm oneness so you you do know what one is believe it.

I'm just verifying. Yeah, so Alright is

Jesus a person right now He's yes, he is he is the glorified body he's in the he is he is the one

God who is in his glorified state Does he have two natures right now

Well, he is in his glorified state so yes Second one

Corinthians 15 24 until he has subdued all his enemies under his footstool He will he will yet continue in his military role.

He will still be a man and the spirit at the same time Okay. Okay good.

So let me show you something here. Let's see if I can get this going up here. Come on. Where are you? No, that's not it.

Let's see. So can you read that?

Okay, is that too small? I I I can Accessory. Yeah. Yeah, I can make a little bit bigger.

I think by doing this. That's right I mean if I can't see it, I'll let you know. There we go. Well kind of yeah, that works.

Yeah. All right so, um We know the Bible says there's only one

God. Yes, right? Yeah, you have no problem with that, right? Here's a verses for that just one

God. Okay. Now the father's called God the son's called God the Holy Spirit's called God Are you agree?

Yes, the father son and Holy Spirit is the same one God yes, no, no, no, we're not saying the same one guy

We're just saying they're called God so far. Yes. Yes. Let me let me let me respond to that if I'm allowed to yes, so Just because the

Bible calls the Holy Spirit God that isn't a that isn't a different God from the one true

God Just because the Sun is revealed as God that doesn't mean the Sun is distinct and in his identity from the father

The only way the only way we would constantly rather Maintain that there are three distinct persons is if we see them as three distinct of course

No Trinitarian will blatantly admit that but every Trinitarian in his

Mental image does believe in three gods, although he may verbally confess he believes in one

God So I would like to maintain that from the start I don't know if you do then we don't have a discussion because that's not the

Trinity if you're gonna argue three guys Yes, I do believe that a

Trinitarian Believes or rather a Trinitarian maintains from their end that they do believe in one

God But but but if I can behind your back Admit then

I will say that yes a Trinitarian is trinitistic Although we don't have a discussion.

We don't have a discussion. I'm not I'm not okay I will I will excuse that for now I will excuse that for now and we will proceed into the other things that we want to discuss

But you've already shot yourself in the foot. You see here's the thing Let me explain

We argue what we actually believe now what you think we believe and you misrepresent what we believe

We don't believe Trinitarianism of three gods We never have taught that the Christian Church has never said it for you to say that is not the

Trinitarian position You're not arguing because of Trinity Okay, so Our position is our position is the oneness that God is absolutely one person

However, you wouldn't make you wouldn't believe that God is one person You are in contradiction to that and I certainly acknowledge and revere your beliefs

But that is still your position and that is still what we are arguing about. So we can so I can have my

Rather I can have my opinions on what you okay. Let's say for the sake of discussion

I will maintain that Trinitarians in view of this discussion.

Let me explain something So I'm gonna explain your view oneness the

Trinity is not true, but God exists as one eternal solitary person

Yes, okay And that he's expressed himself as one person what we understand as a father the son the

Holy Spirit not three persons But one person, right? Yes now what if I were to say to you but really what you're thinking of is

God is one -third of God That's what your view really is. What would you say? I I'm absolutely fine if you say that but I would like for you to justify what you say

Wait a second No, you don't understand I'm saying If I said you believe he's one -third

God am I representing you accurately? You are not representing me accurately.

I'm still fine with that. I'm still fine if you I'm not I'm not I'm not fine with being misrepresented

Okay, so what what okay, I will clear this out If I have to reiterate the

Trinitarian position I do believe that a Trinitarian believes they believe in one God and they believe that the one

God is for the You know classified or rather if I may use the word in the three person, am

I right? I Do believe that we just leave three distinct simultaneous persons and I'll show it to you from the scriptures and show you

And I'll have you it I'll use you to prove your oneness is false That is absolutely fine

Let's do it. Then you ready? You should you should you should do that and I'm ready and I would invite you to do that Yeah, please.

Okay. Yeah, the Father Son Holy Spirit are each called God, right? They each have a will is it not true that they each have a will?

Anyway, no, no, no, no, no don't impose your view Does the scripture say that Jesus says not my will but your will be done when he's talking to the father

Yeah, let let me let me respond to that because what's happening is you are you are right now

It seems like you're almost Ignoring rather I would say the the humanity aspect of Jesus.

You're you're you're denying his humanity in his humanity Yes, I would agree that he He revered or other

Pointed us to the father's will so yes in his humanity is his human will is not his divine, but It's as simple as that Okay, I'm way ahead of you

I've been doing this probably longer than you've been alive. I've talked to a lot of oneness people doesn't mean

I'm right But I'm just sure you are sure you're free to ask me more questions if I I'm not able to answer you

Okay, but I just want you to say and say, you know, I'm not trying to brag or anything I'm just trying to say look I've done this a lot

I know where I'm going and I'm asking very specific questions And we just tell you you're not a you like many oneness don't answer the questions

Yeah, so you can see so it's part of the question watch this. You watch this.

Okay. Yes now This is this is the new

American Standard Bible father If you are willing remove this cup from me, not my will but yours be done.

How many wills are here? Well, if you're talking about God and God in the incarnation, you have two worlds over here

Let me respond Are you going to interject all the time

All you have to do is give a simple answer how many worlds are there yeah

But is there like a time time limit or am I bound to a time and maybe if I breach that go ahead

All right. Okay. Okay. So if you're if you're Since you're asking how many wills well, we say

God's will be done So that is obviously one will of God when you ask me the question How many wills do

I see over here there is obviously when God came in the flesh And he represented us he represented us in totality

So when he said when he denied his will he was he was teaching us what it means to deny the human will in stark contrast to God's will and What is surprising and interesting over here is we never hear of the

Holy Spirit's will And if you can address if you can take me there, it would be great. But I'm sure you cannot and That's about it.

So there's just one will of God and God was in the incarnation. He represented us He taught us what it means to deny our human will and point our will to the father and to sort of seek the father's will

Which is exactly what he did why he was in the flesh Okay Now I'm gonna ask a direct question.

Okay. Yes, how many wills are here? Well, I see two wills over there.

One is a divine will and one is a human will Okay, so you say there's two wills, right?

Yes. Yes Does a will Does a person necessitate having a will

Yes, a person a person has a will but here you're talking about God in the incarnation you're talking about God Revealing himself in in now in different ways as he builds in order to bring us redemption

So if you're if you are referring to a divine will there is no divine will apart from the father's will over here

But if you choose to ignore the basics of Understanding that God has one divine will he is a personal being

Then obviously you're going to fall into the category of trying to see through divine wills over here Sorry, if that question answer was wrong

Okay I'm not sure what you said there. How many wills does a text speak up here?

I Already told you I maintain it to you. There are two wills. One is the divine will and one is the human will of the

Messiah Okay, so we'll get to that. Does a person necessitate having a will a

Person would have to have a will yes. Okay. So then the answer is yes. All right, so If Jesus has a will and he's speaking to someone else who has a will two wills.

That's two persons. Is it not correct? It's well if you're if you're talking about God and and the same

God in the incarnation I wouldn't I Don't think it would be right for anyone to say here

There are two distinct persons The only reason the only reason you can come up with two different divine persons is if you constantly

Look at the humanity of Jesus and say hey, you've got another person in the Godhead Godhead and if I if I can

Proceed which I'm which I'm guessing you are allowing me to proceed What we have here is something very interesting you have a member in the

Godhead who cannot express his will but has to surrender his will to another person in the

Godhead and as Christians all of us have believed that we always seek for God's will but obviously according according to your position you have

The person who seems to be our all -in -all who it's Christ Jesus You're not exercise his own will but has to have somebody else exercise his will in eternity, so The penitentian position in a nutshell is simply a person in the

Godhead who seems to be clearly God or Fully God cannot exercise his own will and you have like a sort of conflict of wills within the

Godhead And that is exactly the position that you are in presenting You don't understand yet.

I haven't even gotten that far. This is what happens a lot of times. I talk to people I ask a simple question

They go on for a long time and they accuse me of things I haven't even said or don't even affirm because they don't understand the position well enough yet So I'm just being very simplistic here very logical and asking you

I told you I'm going to use your words against you and show That your words are going to teach that you don't you you're incoherent and your doctrine is false

Mm -hmm. I would like for you also to address what I said because it almost seems like you've you've been you've completely overlooked or Not what

I said. No, you've gotten ahead of yourself if you know I've not really gone ahead of myself because if you if you if you truly look at it from the

Bible's point of view There's only one will of God So if if you want to look at the Messiah's will and and take that and and plop it into the

Godhead saying yes This is another person then obviously you're going to have two conflicting wills and that's precisely the position you are representing

And unfortunately, you cannot beat that or rather you cannot justify that. I would like for you to justify that Well, let me ask you a question.

Do you think I've never thought of that? Just curious Well, if you did think about it, then maybe you would have realized that there is one will and when

God came in the flesh He represented us. So here you go. Yeah. So here you go. You're saying that if I had known about it

This is what I would have done that assumes a certain level of knowledge that you have But you don't have the level of knowledge that I have about this.

So your answer is incorrect I want to get back to this because this is where the issue lies right now

Now you said in here not my will but your will be done

Yes, how many wills are mentioned here in the text? You said two wills I asked you does a person necessitate having a will you said yes

If therefore there are two wills then that necessitates two persons, right?

Yes, I wouldn't say two distinct persons, but I would say two simultaneous manifestations,

I Don't know if I can follow a proceed in this answer because you're expecting instant questions and answers.

Well, yes I I see two persons, but I don't see two distinct another

I see two manifestations of the same individual of who God is what what's happening right now is

In in whatever way you're expecting me to answer it almost seems like your position is

Then you have a member in the Godhead who's displaying his human side and he and there are two conflicting bills in the

Godhead and That's that's your position right now All I'm doing right now is just going with this what this says

You don't do you are you familiar with the hypothetic Union the community are you if you're late with a communicator with your mottom

I Beg your pardon. Are you familiar with a communicator ideal mottom? I Came I did come across that but I Okay, are you familiar with the the issue of the kenosis

Yes, again, I have All right now to deal with the issues that you want to get ahead to these are the doctors we have to get into to teach to Understand so you see where the questions come plus a doctor of the incarnation be made under the law and what that requires

There's a lot more to this. I'm doing is showing you one thing at a time One thing at a time.

I'm going with your words This is a text not my will but your will be done you said two wills

I agree. You said a person necessitates having a will you said a person necessitates having a will you said yes, then if there's two wills and Personhood this hesitates having a will then two wills means two persons

Right, and you said yes You said yes here and now then you said there are two simultaneous

Manifestations, then you're saying that there's simultaneous manifestations of two persons

That refutes your oneness Because you already said you already said that oneness teaches that Jesus is divine as a single person and he's speaking to the father

Who's another person because there's two separate wills you just refuted your own oneness. I Was gonna help you do that you just that's that's that's that's certainly you can certainly pat your back for that, but What what what

I always fail to understand and what I always fail to see rather is that Trinitarians don't like to look at The the incarnation and God took on flesh.

He wasn't like Unlike us I Cannot go into a

I mean I cannot go into a body as I am or other I cannot manifest myself in simultaneous ways

I'm sure you cannot do that. But when God but obviously all things are possible with God and like us

God can let me respond God can manifest can manifest himself in simultaneous ways and just because he manifested himself in In the body of Christ Jesus, that doesn't mean that somebody else from him

If if I may if I may draw a parallel over here You you are in the

US and I'm in India You have someone in Russia at the same time and you have someone say in South Africa and Australia Now God can reveal or let's say

Jesus and reveal himself with the five of us through different modes of communication with five different messages and And he can do that all at the same time

If that if that is true, which is true Then you're gonna have to say you have you won't have to conclude that there are five different Jesus's in the

Trinity and I'm gonna and I'll be like no there are no five Jesus's It's the same Jesus who can do simultaneous things in different ways now coming here coming to your question coming

I'm coming to responding to your question. I Do agree that that a person is it a person?

Necessitates a will but that but just because God came in the in the incarnation doesn't mean that Miraculously a different person from the father.

It simply means that God has chosen to walk among us it's a unique situation unlike any any other situation in history and Yes, there are two simultaneous

It's the same person of God, but in two simultaneous realms if I can put it Oh That's my response to that Now Because you've given yourself over to a false doctrine of oneness

Your ability to think critically and rationally has now been undermined The proof of this is right here in your own words

You stated Jesus is a person right now. I agree with you that he's a person right now

You also affirmed he has two natures the divine and the human hypostatic

Union That's good you're recognizing what personhood is because we went through what the attributes of personhood are and You agreed with this and I agree fine

So far so good now I Brought up a verse not my will but your will be done and I asked you a very simple question

You gave me a long answer. I'd ask you the question again. Give me another long answer I'd ask you this specific question a third time how many wills are here.

You finally just said what it says two wills. I Said does a person

Necessitate having a will you said yes. These are just what you've said. I'm typing your stuff out

You can see it if I'm wrong you tell me Then I asked you does it that not necessitate all this

Does it not necessitate two persons since you said each person has a will when you say a person is having a will

If a person necessitates having a will and there's two wills then by definition, there's two persons

Yes, let me let me let me respond to that if that is your Trinity over there where Jesus said it's not my

He's obviously talking to God he's talking to the father So if that is your Trinity there, then your second person is just a human being with a human will

But if you if you look at it in light of the incarnation It is it is it is plain as day that while he was in the incarnation

He did he denied his human will and that is what we all have to do Unfortunately as a genitalian you see that as a as a distinct member

Failing to recognize that your second co -equal member who's truly God cannot really have his own will

But has to sort of you know, surrender his will to somebody else and that is exactly the position you represent unfortunately, you choose to not address that address that and If if I if you have a session where I can throw questions at you, that would be great.

Sure Let's get your statements out here and then I'll show you. Okay, I'm gonna tell you we'll come back to this

You have contradicted yourself and you have refuted your own oneness theology But I'm gonna go on and deal with this.

You said Jesus talking to the father Then you said I'm gonna have to say that there's the second person is just a human, right?

That is that is a position you believe in because you know, it's not Yes, but but Jesus was talking to God he was talking to the one through God So if that is your position, then you have a second member who's outside of the

Godhead That's that's a position that you represent. No, you don't understand my position

Okay, there's nothing more I could see in other than what you have You haven't even asked me the right questions

See, I've already shown you this. I've already shown you this is Jesus a person right now. Yes, I agree with that Does he have two natures?

Yes, I agree with that. Did you not hear me say that I agree with this? Yes So you said

You admit that I said Jesus has two natures He's both divine and human and then yet you say my position means

I believe he's just a human yes, because Because as as to Natalian's you seem to have your foundation skewed

Because when you address the doctrine of God God's will is always perfect God's will is divine

God's will is divine God's will is perfect Now you cannot have a member in the Godhead who says who cannot who has got a conflicting will

Because if he did if he was in the Godhead or rather if he was a member of the Godhead Then he would truly have a conflicting will and then that would obviously mean that he is not

God I hope the other Trinitarians listening to this can relate So when you when you say that a member in the

Godhead if that is truly a second co -equal member in the Godhead He cannot seems to have a conflicting will with the father

Then he is truly not God and that's the position that you represent But but hear me out, but if you do believe that while in the flesh

God Represented humanity He represented what it means to surrender our will to God and Let God's will be done.

If you understand that Jesus took our place. He is the forerunner of our faith Unfortunately, it seems like there is a there is competition in the

Godhead if you have to look at it from a Trinitarian point of view But if you look at it from a from a oneness point of view that God is absolutely solitary when he came to flesh

He represented us. He surrendered his human will Because he because he came in the flesh now when

God came in the flesh It doesn't mean that his humanity all of a sudden was camouflaged or you know had disappeared.

He did have humanity He did he did cry literally. He did he probably used the washroom.

He did all of those things He literally lived a human life. So when he denied his will he obviously denied his his weaknesses his human will

Unfortunately the position that sadly so -called Trinitarianism Adheres to is you have a person in the

Godhead who truly cannot do his will and that is something you cannot address And I hope you are able to address that He was under the law

Galatians 4 4 4 made little while the Lord and the angels Hebrews 2 9 as a human being he had two

Natures that means he had two wills within his one person This is necessitated by the fact that if he's going to be divine and the word became flush

So then it's called diathletism

Thaleo is the Greek word will Monothelitism says that the two natures of Christ are combined into a new third thing monophysitism, which does necessitates monothelitism

That's heresy. No, he has two natures and two wills diathletism is the correct view But they're manifested as one will due to the communicate you idiom atom

So you don't understand these things yet. I'm not degrading you I'm just like you don't understand these things yet Which is why you're saying what you're saying saying that I won't be able to answer the question.

Absolutely. Yes, I can I've already had this discussion many times and I'm trying to tell you yes, I understand but you're getting ahead of yourself

You've said some things here when I respond to it you said that I'd be saying that Jesus is not it's just human

But I've already told you That Jesus has two natures divine and human called the hypostatic

Union I've also told you that the communicate you idiom atom which means the communication of the properties means that the nature of the

Attributes of the divine nature and the average attributes of the human nature ascribed to the single person Jesus.

I'm saying there again He has two natures. I can go to Colossians 2 9 Philippians 2 5 through 8

John 1 1 and verse 14 I can talk about this. I can go to Hebrews 1 6 through 8. I can talk about how this is the case

I understand this and I teach it quite a bit. So you are saying it's my position This is the second time you've misrepresented my position say that I believe the

Trinitarian ultimately in three gods, which I don't you say I believe I don't believe it But I really do you remind me

Tracy Turbleville who said Matt I know more about you what you believe than you do And no, you don't and I can ask him questions.

I can ask you questions about diet elitism monothelic ism Monophysitism the storing is a new tikian ism

I can ask you how they relate to each other along with a hypostatic Union and how it relates to the communicate you idiom atom

You want to know why I know these? Because for 41 years I have been debating

Mormons Jehovah's Witnesses Christian scientists Unitarians Muslims all kinds of people who attacked the deity of Christ and have asked me a thousand different questions about Jesus His wills his nature.

How can he have the same will of God? He said not my will be yours, but he's divine How can he do that got an answer for you?

How can he do that? I gotta ask you say but you can't answer it. Yes, I can but we're way down the road

I'm trying to show you as I said, I would do that your own words will hang you

You have already said You've already said that a will necessitates a person

Now if Jesus is a person. He says not my will but your will by your words that necessitates two persons

Do you deny that that necessitates two persons if you said? that Having a will is what is a necessary aspect of being person?

You know, what are you gonna retract it now? No, I'm not. I'm certainly going to respond to that. I'm certainly going to respond to that God obviously when

God when God was Incarnated in flesh or when he was manifested in the flesh you have a unique situation

You have us you have a situation unlike unlike before you have you have God in the in now

If if if this is a second divine person speaking to the father Then you have a second divine person who's not to be able to exhibit or administer his own will

But if you understand that God came in the flesh as a human being He certainly he certainly had to have surrendered his will to the father but what's happening over here and what you are not addressing and I and I I Suppose I can ask you questions as well.

And if you can answer that that would be great How about this is what Jesus says?

Yes, you want me to do you want me to Respond to that. Well notice what he says now does

Jesus have a will In the flesh in the flesh.

He had a human will. Yes. Okay, we're gonna get to that. Yes, we're gonna get to that So he had a will okay.

Yes. He had a will. All right. So is Jesus one person? No, he is the one person of God.

He yes. Yes. Jesus is one person with two natures Sorry. Yes. He's got two natures.

Yes. Is there a will in the divine nature? He doesn't have a will in the divine nature he's built how is the divine nature

God if it doesn't have a will Yes, as as God he does have a divine will

I didn't ask that I said, how does he have how to be divine divine part if he that divine part doesn't have a will

How is it divine if there's no will? He has a divine will I I didn't know

Jesus has two natures. He has two natures. So he's a divine nature means necessitates will doesn't it?

Yes, then he has a divine will and Or we would say a human will and a divine will in the one person

Yes, and they're the human will right this is called dice elitism

Di means to fillet. Oh will so one person of Jesus has two natures and is

Necessary that within each nature is will But we perceive and the manifestation of that will is always one.

I will be with you Always I am thirsty the I Claims the attributes of both natures and the wills are expressed as a single

Will in the person of Christ have you ever heard of dice elitism before? See, I haven't heard of that elitism before but but I maintain that Jesus had food food two natures

He had two wills good is the divine one is the divine will which is the father's will okay because he is the father

Okay, so when Jesus said yes when Jesus said not my will but your will be done

Which nature was talking? It was the human nature obviously dog. Oh, so then when

Jesus says I will be with you Always I'll be with you to the end of the earth, right?

I am thirsty then there's two persons talking because each will has a person saying

I but it's not the same Person saying I'll be thirsty not the same person saying I'll be with you always is it

And when he says when when Jesus says I will be with you always he's obviously talking about he's talking as God He's talking as the

Holy Spirit is the human aspect involved When see when Jesus says

I'm thirsty He was still God. I wouldn't I wouldn't say he said I'm thirsty as God I'm sure you would agree with that the one person said

I'm thirsty Yes Two natures the the year on the erroneous erroneous position that you take is that you are looking at the

Manifestation of God to mean a distinct person in identity and that's and that's the mistake you

Rather purposefully do really are taking you are taking the manifestation of God a distinct person

Okay, and when you do that you obviously run into what we call the politestic view or the tritestic view of Let's see, let's see how you do handle that I'm gonna ask you the same questions on the real part and I hope you can address that sure

Go when when Jesus said not my will be done was that his human will or his divine will neither

It was this a wrong question It was not the divine will or the human will that makes answer because that would be the error of Nestorianism, which is a heresy as I said to you already the two wills don't die

Thelotism always speak and manifest as one the one will of the person because Jesus is a single person a

Single person can only have one will there is a mystery to this even from your from your perspective

How does Jesus have two natures the nature of the divine requires self -awareness omniscience omnipotence and the attributes of divinity because that's what divinity is

It has to exist in the person of Christ and he has to have human attribution as well which is one place at a time getting hurt thirsty and going to the bathroom and sleeping and and the

I Claimed both therefore the eye is a single person But what you do is you say no this will talk sometimes and this will talk sometimes

Never is that in the scripture? It's always I Me the one person you're the one with the problem.

I don't have a problem You have to understand you don't even believe the doctrine of the hypostatic

Union You don't believe it. You don't even understand what it is. Otherwise, you wouldn't be asking the question

This is why the one this people are heretics. They deny the hypostatic Union. You think you do

Believe it, but you really don't you think you understand the communicate you idiom atom, but you don't you think you understand when you get exposed?

To a diathletism and how it relates to the single person, but you don't these are issues that the

Christian Church has had to deal With for centuries. I learned it because the cults and the false teachers would would ask me questions

I didn't have answers to I went and looked and I found out these questions had already been asked and Answered and I studied and I found out even more

Your I appreciate your history over here, but my question stands my question stand

I'm not the one with multiple wills and the Godhead. I believe that there's this one It is you who thinks that there are

Different wills and different persons in the forehead and since you asked me the question my question stands

How many is when Jesus said not my will was that divine will or the human wills me?

Wrong Okay, you didn't you didn't hear you don't say

I believe there's multiple wills in the Godhead that's a different statement And are you familiar with what's called perichoresis?

So what is your belief? Are you familiar with are you familiar with perichoresis? No, I'm not

There's a lot you're not aware of and yet you're arguing from a level of knowledge. That is insufficient now

Let me maintain this I'm not expected to know all the yes, you are maybe all those other words you said you're

Trinitarian I'm not gonna dare you were sorry. You said you were a

Trinitarian. Yeah, but I was argue against it I wasn't I I wasn't a hardcore

Trinitarian fan, and I'm glad I never was. However, let me still ask you Okay, okay. Let me ask me the question.

Ask me the incorrect question again And of course you're going to give me an incorrect answer

Unfortunately, unfortunately when it comes to you responding to my questions Suddenly it means none suddenly it means

I mean I it almost seems like you are dictating what your answer should be like and that's absolutely fine to do so.

Let's move on Yes, how many How many wills are there in the

Godhead that can be exhibited? How many wills are in the Godhead is

Jesus is divine. How many wills are in the Godhead that can be exhibited? Exhibited yes for administered at the very least two

Not three. I said the very least two because you're the context you're talking about. Is there anything can it be three?

Can it be three? Yes, absolutely Okay So if it can be three

Then it looks like it's still going in the area of just two wills because here Jesus blatantly denied

He's doing he's doing I I know that it's his human will but unfortunately you look at it as his divine will

So you have a member in the God and I'm saying this again and I'm going to say it to the audience as well You have a member in the

Godhead Who's truly God who is he is fully God rather and cannot do his own will that is the position your friend

Mike takes over here Okay, you're asking the wrong question. I will proceed with the other question.

Okay, you're asking the wrong question But you're not drawing the right conclusions You don't understand the doctrine of the

Trinity and these particular issues as well as you think I have to frequently teach

Critics of the Trinity things about the Trinity. They have never even heard of If they are going away

If you're gonna argue against a Trinity you better study it if I'm talking to a

Muslim About Tawheed and about the idea of God deceiving I go to surah 354

He's the greatest of the greatest of deceivers and I I'm talking about this I go to surah 4 171 and talk about this

I better know what I'm talking about and when a Muslim says to me it happens he goes. No, that's not our position

I immediately say okay. What is your position? I get my notes out Hey, well, what is your position

I say I never intend to misrepresent you I can do it accidentally What is the right position show me the surahs or the hadiths show me where it is.

I'm open to learning. I still am and if they say They say you need to study this and this and this

I write it down and I go study it You don't

Hypostatic union communicatio idiomatum dithalatism perichoresis divine simplicity

These are these English terms because my English is not Pro level so your

English is you're very good. I'm asking you are those English terms the terms Yeah, like the word

Trinity is is is English hypostatic union is Latin Those other terms that you used are the

English terms Yeah, they're English terms. Yeah. Okay. Okay fine, because I don't know everyone under the

Sun in English. That's okay, but but anyways So so you said you maintain that When I asked you then

Jesus said not my will be done you still Choose not to answer that Is It's a wrong question, oh wow, so cool they're going ahead because you you decide what question is right and what is wrong

No, no, no. No big Demonstrates that's clearly your position right now. It demonstrates you don't understand the position

I say it's the wrong question because you don't understand we don't say it's either the human will or the divine will

Speaking we don't say that that's not the Trinitarian position with Christ. It's he

I've told you this before Hypostatic union one person with two natures each nature has to have a will that's called

Dithelitism, but it's perceived and expressed as a single will Never as two

I've said this is a third time. I'm telling you never as two different wills Always as one

I am with you always I am thirsty The will is always one in the person of Christ who's one person

Therefore for you to say when he was speaking here, which will was it? It's not the right question.

Let me explain it again If we don't ever say it was this will or that will speaking.

It's the wrong question. It demonstrates. You don't understand our position That's what

I'm telling you You don't understand it Understand your position it looks like we will have to abandon some

Really great questions from our end just to sort of conform to the fact that yes, we do not understand

Yeah, we raise our hands and surrender and there are things about the Trinity that we don't understand Unfortunately, it's the other way around most in Italians.

Most of the dinner advocates admit that the Trinity is and in fact a mystery and They are absolutely right.

It is because it is nowhere found in the Bible. Anyways, let's wait a minute. Hold on. Hold on Hold on you're begging the question.

You're assuming things that you haven't demonstrated to be true I've already quit quiz to you and showed you the problems of the personhood issue in the person of Christ I've shown you that you come back with another issue.

You ask me a question. I'm telling you It's the wrong question and I tell you why it's the wrong question And I'm also giving you these are the terms and the doctrines you need to study

No, see if I ask you a question if I ask you a simple question Okay Then okay, let me let me ask you another question, which is on the same will on the on the will aspect of God When Jesus said not my will be done with yours was

Jesus talking as God the Son Define God the Son You are the one who has to define

I know what a girl you just use the term What do you mean was he speaking as God the Son is

God the Son two natures or one nature? Okay, okay, if I may if I may get it correct

I'm not the one who imposes an external unbiblical term like God the Son of God The Son is a trinitarian term

It'll be you who have to explain what it means if you since you are asking me

Did you hear me bring up the term God the Son? It's not my position to explain you what I got the

Sun That's your trinitarian. So did you hear me bring up the term God the Son? Okay, so now it looks it seems that I have been introduced to a different I didn't know.

See here's a mistake you're making. I didn't say a firm. I don't say I deny I just asked you a question.

Did you hear me use the term? Do you believe in the term called the

Sun? I asked you did you hear me was that you haven't used okay? But it's a trinitarian.

I don't I don't have to know and what you don't know Is a trinitarian Then if you bring if you bring up the term you define it.

I Brought up hypostatic union communicato idiom atom. I brought up perichoresis

No, I've got a bad man. Let's just let's just be very honest. Do you believe that God the

Sun? I'm not honest I don't know. No. No, I hope you can be moving on You know,

I couldn't be honest. Is that what you're saying? I'm just asking you. Okay. I hope I can speak I'm asking you.

Do you believe that the term called the Sun is a trinitarian term or is it or is it not? Maybe I maybe

I'm probably Maybe I didn't It is a term that some trinitarians use

I do use that I did not We have never had a conversation before so I wouldn't know you personally

I'll never define it No, no, I'm asking do you believe your answer should be yes or no if the term

God the Sun means that the second person of the Trinity became flesh and has two distinct natures then yes,

I agree with that term When Jesus said not my will be done, but yours be done was that God the

Sun speaking? Yeah by that definition who has one manifested will right?

So so now because you have to justify a God the Sun suddenly there are two different worlds But then I asked you which was it the divine will or the human will you seem to be?

Trying to escape that that answer which is absolutely fine. I'm not trying to escape anything You're not focused.

Let's move. Let's let's move on. Oh, no. No. No, let's stay here. You brought it up. Let's focus

Focus how many did Jesus have a will? Yes, I guess he had a will he said and who is he praying to in the garden?

He was praying to the father. Is that two separate wills? Is it two separate wills? Yes, he had a he had a human will

I Was it the human wills praying to the divine will let me respond.

Yes. Yes. Well, so then how is it an incarnation? Always why can't it be an incarnate?

What what has that got to do with what we are talking about? You don't know what an incarnation is Okay, maybe you can educate me an incarnation is simply the embodiment of a spirit

It is it is a spirit spirit getting into a body now Humans can do that.

It wasn't demons can do that. That's not an incarnation. Try it again. What's an incarnation and an incarnation and Okay, the

Bible doesn't use the word incarnation Simply means an incarnation simply means the manifestation of a spirit

Manifestation of the Holy Spirit at the baptism of Jesus is not an incarnation when they came down it like a dove That's not a incarnation

No, I'm talking about a human personification About Jesus in the incarnation.

What does it mean? What does it mean God in the flesh? What else can it mean? But but Matt, wait a minute.

Look No, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, wait a minute. You're the one who brought this up.

I'm holding your feet to the fire Is an angel when he becomes a man and walks around is it an incarnation?

You can yes, of course, it would be an incarnation. Okay, so you don't understand what incarnation means

Okay, that is fine. Now. Let me let me further ask. No, hold on a sec. Hold on a sec Okay, so so I don't get to ask question.

Yes, you do, but you got to understand something You don't know what you're talking about.

I'm not trying to be mean but here are the words you need to study incarnation versus Manifestation.

Let me tell you what incarnation is It's when the Lord the second person the

Trinity enters the womb of Mary and is in union with the human nature and is incarnate meat flesh and Becomes flesh in the beginning was the

Word the Word was with God the Word was God the Word became flesh That's what incarnation is and he's permanently going to be in the state.

He will never stop being this way a Manifestation is when an angel appears as a man for a little while.

That's a manifestation that ceases an incarnation does not So you don't understand what these terms mean if you want to if you want to argue on this level

You have to get up to the level with the knowledge of what it is. You're arguing about you're not there

I'm just trying to help you. I've introduced the terms and define them.

The only guy I haven't defined is divine simplicity But this is I can do that very quickly and very easily but you need to study these things

Matt Matt Matt Just just just just be very honest with yourself And God says when God says when

God says when the Bible says when first in first image 16 God was manifest in the flesh and did not use the word incarnation now

I do understand what you mean by incarnation. I certainly do believe what incarnation means now

Unfortunately, you think that the word incarnation is exclusively You know describing a second person in the

Godhead which is absolutely fine But yes, I I would agree with you. There is a difference in manifestation and incarnation, but there isn't a major difference for example a manifestation simply means

Reveal something or or you know, maybe even a temporary manifestation or a manifestation rather can be temporary.

I totally agree I'm not disputing you with that. I'm not trying to sort of Beat you up with your

Vocabulary and all of that and your your intelligence and what meanings or words mean

I'm simply asking you questions Am I allowed to proceed with my questions or are we just gonna beat around the bush with the incarnation and manifestation?

Ask your questions. I've not stopped. Yes. Yes. So so you so so when I asked you wasn't

God the Sun Who said not my will be done you agree that was called the

Sun so so in conclusion then a God the Sun That Said something a

God the Sun. Is that what you said? Yeah, or God the Sun. Okay, because in English to say a

God the Sun is very significant. It means a second God So the key I don't believe you're saying that I think you just misspoke

Fine God the Sun so if so, so you see you so you agree that God the

Sun said not my will be done But your will be done in conclusion then in conclusion then

God the Sun couldn't do his will or couldn't administer his Moving forward.

Can I respond to that? Yeah, sure. Why do you think he was saying not my will but your will be done

You're gonna be saying it's the human flesh that's speaking of the divine, but that's an historian ism

Which is a heresy. We've already gone over this you just study it What he was doing was being he with the attributes of humanity are also part of the person

He did not want to go through being pierced in his hands and his feet and tortured and beaten

He didn't want to go through it who would as A human he had the attributes of humanity and the and were ascribed to the person and the person saying

I want to do this Because he's a human being but he also said not my will but your will be done

What what obviously most Canadians fail to realize is that when he says when when if he truly had a divine will apart from the father's will as Being another person in the garden and I wouldn't say second person

I would say another person in the Godhead if he truly had his divine will Then he wouldn't have prayed to the father knowing that he could administer or he could execute or go ahead with his own will

But as a as a human being he yes, he and that's my position as a human being

Yes, he had to have surrendered his human will to his divine will moving forward since Coming to any settlement over there

Does the Bible speak or other does Jesus address the Holy Spirit and Seek his will or or vice versa

Is there a conversation between does the Holy Spirit spirit does the Holy Spirit seek the will of the

I mean Don't you just seek the will of the Holy Spirit? Yes Yes Does the Jesus seek the will of the

Holy Spirit or is Jesus talking to the Holy Spirit in a way that you know? There is a form of communication

No, not that I'm aware of Okay Okay. So so in in in totality you what you believe there are

Three girls in the Godhead or each person has got their own. I'm sorry. Say it again You believe each person has got their own will divine divine you by logical necessity.

Yes Okay, so all the three members in the garden have their divine yes and the

Bible only talks about the father's birth Does it? Does the Sun have a will The Sun has a human birth does no.

No, I don't have a divine will he has two natures you wait a minute You said he has two natures and each one has to have a will but you admitted that that's called diathletism

You admitted diathletism so therefore The will of the divine and the human were attributed to the single person of Christ who always manifested it as one will

I've told you this is a fourth time now As far as as far as your position goes you you maintain that there are that it's just one will but when it when it has when it has to come to like rather justifying the persons of your

Godhead suddenly there is There are there are just three bills and and you know, you're you're obviously

Denying the humanity of Jesus. I'm not denying the humanity of Jesus How many times have

I got to tell you Brandon? He has a human nature and a divine nature he has two natures the divine and the human the hypostatic union and the attributes of both natures the divine nature and the human nature are ascribed to the single person the communicatio idiomato exactly and Diathletism that will of the divine nature the will of the human nature that manifests as a single will

I've given you three different ways in hypostatic union communicato idiomato diathletism that distinguish and show the human side and the divine side of the one person of Christ and yet you say you

Contradict what I tell you super super so so and so in conclusion that in conclusion

Since this is that it's just one will of God the Son So I've got the son as as for the worst and you quoted not my will be done

But you all will be done. I've got the son couldn't do his will so that's your position That that is your position, right?

Because you said you clearly said that that's one will of the divine person in the hypostatic union the divine and the human will

Which is you can see and come together as one will and so Jesus spoke

Jesus spoke so so when when he said not my will be done But yours you all will be done in conclusion.

Then you have a got the son who could not do his will Yes, he couldn't do it. So well, of course you did the will the father

No, no, but he couldn't do his own will he couldn't do his own will as God the Son that's your position, right?

No, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no. No, hold on. You have to be careful how you

You Have to be careful how you say couldn't Now this may sound like I'm just trying to get philosophically dense, but you can understand there's different ways that this can be understood

He could not in one sense, but he could in another sense He could not because as he says in John 5 30

He came to do the will of the father and he could only do what he sees the father do John 5 19 Let me show you now explain what

I mean Because He's Jesus says he can do nothing of himself

Right, you agree. That's what he says, right? Yes Now if he could do nothing of himself this works for you as well

Okay, how could Jesus the man say I could do nothing of myself? Unless it's something he sees the father doing is he seeing himself doing it?

What's he talking about? Yes, there's questions we can get into let me show you I Can do nothing of my own initiative

Now, let me ask you. This is a question according to your understanding which will is talking there

So I can do nothing about you that's the human will right? Yes.

Yes. Okay now get a question for you I have come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me

Who's the eye is a divine will or the human the divine nature of the human nature speaking of Jesus?

It's it's it's the human nature speaking. It's the logos made flesh. It's so So he said that so that's the human nature says

I've come down from heaven. How's the human nature in heaven? No, the human nature didn't come down from heaven, but he's speaking as though he's let me respond to that He said it was a human nature.

Let me respond to that. The human nature came from me You and I can both agree with that When he says

I came down from heaven. He is talking about it himself as the forward input the lamb the forward input

John 1 1 the lamb You know who was for being who was the

Bible says the lambs were slain from the foundation of the world Now the lamb wasn't literally there in the human body besides the father

But yes, but yet these things were forwarding when Jesus said I came down from heaven not to do my own will

He still spoke as the forward in man. He spoke as the forward in The knowledge of God that God would come in flesh.

So when so if this is your position obviously when you have a person who says

I've come down from heaven and yet cannot do his Will and this is the second time that you you know,

I get to I've already answered it. You keep ignoring my answers.

No, I haven't ignored your answer I just personally feel that your answer is is intelligently designed and I commend you for that It is intelligently designed to simply avoid being accountable to a question

Let me explain something here you have ignored my responses several times

I've had to tell you more than once that you're ignoring what I'm telling you in my responses

I've told you about Jesus having two distinct natures at the one time and then you come back and you'll say oh

He's just human then that's what you're saying. You're saying that I keep it. That's not I didn't say that. I just said that According to you you admitted that a

God the Son couldn't do his will By the way, don't say you don't say a God the Son. Sorry my apology

Let me finish by your own admission by the very worst you use and I'm just no no, no, listen, let me finish

I'm trying to tell you you are not listening to what I'm saying and the proof of it has been in our conversation and When I give you an answer to something you tend to ignore it and interpret it only in the light of oneness

What I'm doing is Taking your position and showing your position internally is having a problem

I've already done that with the personhood of Christ and the person of the Father your your job now is to try and get back at me and say that we have the will of The Son who can't do the will of the

Father and then I ask you about that. I'm working with you I say which will is that according to your position and you're saying it's the human will

You're saying that when Jesus says I I came down I did my own well But the will of him who sent me that that's the that's that's the human nature.

That's what you said I'm working with what you say. I say so the eye of John 638 is the human nature speaking, right?

So you got a problem I have come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me so he the eye

Was in heaven and was sent The you're saying the human nature is the eye here

I have come down from heaven That's what you're saying. You said it's the This is super clarification

Which could according to your position which nature is speaking here Yeah, it's it's when he says

I have come down from heaven yes, he's speaking from the human nature, okay

But but let's do that. Let me so let me let's work with it So the human nature said

I have come down from heaven. How is the human nature speaking saying it was already in heaven? Yes, he wasn't the human nature literally wasn't in heaven.

Then. Why are you saying? From heaven Let me respond to that the

Bible does speak about the lamb being slain from the foundation of the world the Bible does say the lamb was

Forgiven from the foundation of the world now the lamb wasn't literally hanging back there on the cross

What was what was what was already back there was the foreknowledge of God?

It was the foreknowledge of his own human personification 4 ,000 years later from the time he created the world and When he says

I have come down When he says I have come down from heaven It simply means that he came down from heaven as the foreordained man as the lamb slain from the foundation of the world

As far as his humanity is concerned. I still maintain that his humanity began at Jerusalem in the womb of the

Virgin if this is the Trinity if if if if this particular verse is intended to justify or prove a

Trinity then I still maintain and Unfortunately, you are moving in circles over here

I still maintain that a person in the Godhead truly came down from heaven and could not do his own

That's the position you are representing right? Not yet. You don't understand the position.

I'm saying I'm telling you again. You don't understand it No, it's not

No, it's not. I'm trying to show you Because I've already answered this several times listen again

Jesus has all years. Yeah, but you're just moving. Can you listen, please? Listen, listen, how many natures of Jesus have?

He has two natures yeah two natures is does each nature possess a will Yes, okay is

Jesus one person Jesus is one Jesus Peter let me respond to that Jesus Peter.

Yes or no. Is he one person? He's a single person. Okay, so he's one person with two natures each having a will right?

Yes. Yes. Now the one person says I am hungry I am thirsty.

Is it the same person saying I each time If it's the same person saying

I'm hungry and I'll be with you always and it's the one person who's speaking And it's not the case that it's a human nature speaking and a divine nature speaking because there'll be two persons

It's the one person. Let me respond to that. Yeah Yeah, let me respond you are you are looking at the incarnation you are looking at the manifestation of God It's humanity as two persons and that's the and that's and that's your error

You you are constantly basing your foundation is that when God took on humanity?

Oh, that is miraculously another divine person. However, my position is in is Simple when

God took on humanity, you do not all of a sudden have a different human a different God member

When you simply have God coming in the coming in flesh God in the flesh

Yes, there were limitations. He lived a human life God in Eternity is quite different from God in the flesh

When God say when God was in the flesh when he says I thirst or I hunger We cannot expect

God in heaven to say the same things when he slept in the boat as a man we cannot expect him to have

Slept in heaven or take his whatever his usual naps So so we cannot learn the humanity of Christ in such a way to impose the revelation of extra

People in the Godhead a person in the Godhead And I hope I'm making myself clear again when

God came in the flesh. That wasn't the introduction of the Revelation of a new person that is simply the same person of God who came in the flesh

Let me also say this. I'll just take another 30 seconds if I can This is this is this is to the audience it's more of I'm not trying to debate anyone here

Can I proceed with this 30 seconds Yeah, so this is to the audience over here

When God came in the flesh now as we understand you all understand that God has a divine will that's that's the soul

Will of this we also understand that God is a he there's no place in the Bible that says God is a day

Some some way Yes, I know Someone like Genesis 126, but all of a sudden in the genitalian world the one us is more

Significant than all the other singular pronouns, but that no, we don't say that we'll leave that to another discussion

No, we don't say that he's another misrepresentation. We don't say it's more significant. We don't do that. Okay. Sure. Sure. Sure.

Okay, I'll just proceed so when when So God as we know him has one divine will he?

He he doesn't have his human attributes or his qualities in heaven He's quite different from us.

Although we were created in his image. He's holy He's able to be all he's able to be every way as he as he wills

He's able to manifest himself in different ways unlike us. So here we clearly know there is a difference between his eternal state or as God as he is as against who we are as human beings now

When God came in the flesh, we cannot think of God to be a man we can it would be it wouldn't be right to say that God is a man or it wouldn't be right to say that God is

One of us eternally. So when he came in the flesh, he had to he had to have lived a human life

And when he lived a human life, he was representing us He took our place, which is why he says not my will but the father's and that's what we have to do

We have to deny a human will we have to deny the cravings of the flesh that can get in the way of God We have to deny what we are or or the or the evil passions that we have

I'm not saying that Jesus had an evil passion But when he wanted to escape the cross that was still his human will

His humanity kicked in was like, you know, I cannot go through the cross, but he still

He still forsook his Human will and surrendered it to God. So that's him representing us

That's he he was laying an example to us and that is what we ought to do we cannot look at this as evidence of different persons in the

Godhead and I and I hope that in God's speed that some will come to that realization

Is Jesus one person or two persons? Jesus is the one individual of who

God is His humanity is not a different person. Let me maintain that.

His humanity is not a different person Okay, Brandon, I ask you simple questions and you go on and on I think

I learned it from you. I think I learned it from you because I do ask simple questions and you are moving in circles

But anyways, go ahead. Go ahead. Is Jesus one person or two persons? Jesus is absolutely one the one person

God is. Yes. No, I didn't ask who God is I asked you is he one person or two persons you at you change the question.

Let me let me respond I I am responding Matt. I am responding Well, Jesus is

Jesus as God also came in the flesh. So we have a difference over there So when you ask me is

Jesus one person? Yes, he is the one Individual of who God is but it depends now what you're trying to get at is you're purposely asking me if he's one person as How he was in the flesh

So if you want to be specific, that would be great but if you're asking me how many persons there are in the court is absolutely one person and That one person came in a human person, which is the same identity of who

God is. It's his same identity, but a different manifestation You've already admitted that the hypostatic union is a teaching that he's one person with two natures

That's what you've already admitted. Now. I'm asking you again. Is Jesus one person or two persons? He's in India.

I probably lost him So while we're waiting for him to get back do you guys see what's happening

I'm taking notes from what he says specifically I come back to what he says and I'm using his own words against him and showing the problem

And what he's doing is not really addressing the specificity I'm getting to but trying to jump sideways and ahead.

Well, yeah, that means you over here we haven't even gotten there yet and we can't get there until we go through the steps that Determine the nature and the work of person of who

Christ is This is what This is one of the ways to prove that oneness is false

If we can demonstrate that Jesus is a person and that he has two natures

Then the questions come does he speak as one person or as they speak as two persons? because what he's saying is

Sometimes he speaks as the divine and sometimes he speaks as the human that Necessitates then two persons because he's speaking as the divine and he's not speaking as a human.

Yeah, which is Nestorian is It's okay,

I understand no, I was just explaining to the audience what's going on here's some of the words you need to study

Okay Yeah, that'll do

Yeah, that'll do so you said earlier that Jesus is one person because you accepted the doctrine of the hypostatic

Union that is one person in two natures, right? When God came yes when

God came in the flesh. He was both Jesus Jesus by definition the hypostatic

Union is the teaching that in the one person are two distinct natures a divinely human

Do you agree with that? Yes One person so let me ask you is

Jesus one person or two persons He is one person with two manifestations

No, I didn't say that. I just asked is he one person? So the answer is yes now Here's a question.

Does he speak as one person or does he speak as two persons? He speaks as one person, but he speaks at the same time from the standpoint of view of his human humanity one person

All right So he speaks as one person right Then good

So then the one person speaks out of his divinity and out of his humanity

Humanity at the same time right because that's the one person speaking, right? Yes, yes

Great. So then we have the one person who speaks out of his divinity and humanity

Therefore you can't separate the divinity and the divinity and the humanity as speaking separately.

Can you? Yes Yes, of course you can because God is omnipresent No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no

Jesus personhood. Don't jump off to our God omnipresent. Look if he speaks you look

I'm showing you you don't listen You don't listen Listen to me.

I'm writing this down So you can see it He speaks as one person

Right, that's what you said he speaks as one person then that means this is not true if he speaks as one person then he as One person is speaking from both his humanity and his divinity at the same time

Because he's one person one person It's not if you say the divine and then a different time the human speaks.

That's two persons It cannot be two persons Good, so that's because you are seeing two persons.

Let me respond. No, that's your position let me let me respond to that if if What's really happening is and this is this is what?

Interestingly Alternatarians like to always Hammer they you you completely ignore his humanity.

You are you are you are looking at his your Adversity No, I Apologize what

I was doing was using my just my fault. I should have told you I muted myself my bad I muted myself and I'm using my speech program to repeat what you say

So, I apologize that was distracting I should have told you my bad. All right, that's fine.

I'm using myself right now So I can do that. Okay, go ahead. That's fine. My position is very simple

You have the one God who came in the flesh while he was in the flesh He did speak from his humanity and he did didn't speak from his divinity

Just because he gave I'm saying this again Just because he revealed himself in flesh or just because he manifested himself in flesh that doesn't make another distinct identity or a different person that is the same person of who

God is and If if I can shed light on that and this is to the audience that God the the one omnipresent God who can

Manifest himself in different ways can do that So when he came in the flesh that isn't the revelation of somebody else but that is the same

God who Acted out. I wouldn't say acted out, but he displayed True humanity in the flesh while he was in the flesh

So yes, he is the one person of God, but he didn't speak sometimes on this humanity and he didn't speak from his

Divinity if this is if if you if you want to take his The things that he said it said as a man and and try and fit that in the

Godhead Then you have a member in the Godhead who's weaker or who's you know, subordinate to another to somebody else

That is that is what the Trinitarian position will be But if you understand that when

God took on flesh that he was he was taking our place He lived a human life and he

Acted out and both he was God and he was a man at the same time Okay Did you admit

I took notes try to the best I could understand you and I'm not knocking your accent You have a bit of an accent, but I have 80 decibel ringing in both ears.

It's very loud in my end So I have trouble hearing you. Sometimes that's not a knock on you. You do your English is very good

Thank you. So The one God who came in flesh you speak of his humanity and things like that.

Okay, so I'm asking about his personhood This is where the issue hits the the this is where it becomes important I'm gonna go to the top of the hour because it'd be 11 o 'clock for me.

This is where it becomes important You see is God one person or three persons?

this is the question and If we define personhood

Which we've already done We apply the definition We have to be consistent in how we define it and apply it

We know that Jesus is a person as you've already admitted he's a person Now when he's speaking he's speaking to someone else

But what you do then is you say well, that's his humanity speaking to the divinity But then what you do is you divide the person and you you destroy the person at that point

Because the person you've already said he Jesus speaks as one person He speaks as one person we already got over this the hypothetic

Union the two natures One person it's diathletism as two wills is it the body will don't know this and he's too well

That's a that's the orthodox position in Trinitarianism anyway that two wills one will of the flesh one will of the divine but they're manifested as one single will

I I'm thirsty. I'm hungry. I this I that if you say that there is a human will and a divine will speaking

Alternately then you're saying each one is a person because personhood is required because speaking

Requires personhood which you've already admitted But that would mean that Jesus is two persons which you properly deny, but you can't deny that he's

Two persons and yet also have him speak as two persons You have him speak as two persons when you say the human

Part speaks to the divine part That's a human person because personhood requires a will

Awareness of others you already agreed to that. So you are saying there's two persons You're saying a divine person and a human person in the one body of Christ So this is what you're saying.

I'm catching you on what you're saying and taking these words writing them down This is what I do during debates.

I write people's words down. I take this speech thing. I do this I'm showing you you're inconsistent and You're inconsistent because you're a oneness not gonna understand something when

I talk to Mormons They have a Mormon brain. They can't understand a lot of stuff when

I talk to atheists They have an atheist brain their presuppositions have a certain area and therefore they can't go beyond that presupposition

You have a oneness view To know if you've been deceived or don't believe something is true two things to two main ways to do this internal contradiction or external fact that contradicts your worldview

What I'm doing with you so far is showing your internal contradiction I'm getting you to the place where your your oneness doesn't work because you're saying in the person of Christ He's one person with two natures and yet you have the person of the divine

Speaking or the person of the human speaking to the person of the divine because you already admitted

I scroll up and show you the notes Where personhood means having a will can speak recognizing you and yours and so you're going to say that the human nature

Father your will be done. That means it's the human nature which by your definition has to be human person

That's a person who it is. And so you're gonna now divide Jesus into two persons, but if I say that you're gonna say no, we only believe is one person

But this is where the incongruity comes in because then I'll work with you again and again and trying to show you

Matt we are certainly short on time. I hear you out. I Do know what you're

I know what you're getting at So what you're saying is because a will necessitates or the person necessitates a will since you have two wills

They go to persons. That's your position, right? And I and I hear you all I hear you But but what what what we what we should understand is that God God is not a man for sure

God is certainly not a man. We can we can in all agree. He is not eternally a man

The word became flesh the world was God became flesh, but he's not eternally a man

What do you I'm sorry what he's not what a man God God is not eternally a man not in the past, right?

Right in eternal eternally. God is not a man. So so when God came in the flesh He he stepped into I wouldn't say another person.

He stepped into another manifestation But yet in his identity, he is he's absolutely one in his identity.

That's my position so yes in his Humanity, he did display.

He did display What what seemed to be like, you know here there's somebody else talking or you have somebody else now as we can sharply see

The position that you are obviously Representing is since since you believe that that wills

Necessitate to two persons since you believe that a will necessitates two persons They know not a will two persons but a will

So if Jesus had two wills then the second person was further another person so the second member in the

Godhead is now and so now you have four people in the Godhead because you Let me finish you you you admitted that a person necessitates a will and You also admitted that Jesus as the second member of the

Godhead had two natures and he had two wills you you said it You you clear that and I and I totally humbly embrace that you said

Jesus has two wills which means the second person is not a person but now is two persons and You would ultimately have to conclude that there are four persons in the

Trinity. I'm good I'm going to repeat repeat this again for the audience Matt Matt clearly admitted and I and I'm with him on that that a person necessitates a will he also mentioned that Jesus as The second person or the other person in the

Godhead has two natures and two wills So if he had two wills then the second person is no longer one person

But two persons and I'm and I would say no, that's not two persons. It's it's the same

God who has come in humanity That's my position and I'm trying to help you with your position because then I want to avoid the

The fallacy of the four persons in the Trinity as for your language so in conclusion as we can sharply see that the position that you adhere to is that you have four persons in the

Godhead because according to you if a will Necessitates a single person and the second person had two wills then the second person is truly not one person but two persons and then obviously you have four persons in the

Godhead and That's that's what we can conclude over here. But my position is very simple.

It doesn't have to be so complicated You don't have to shit out it with so much of mystery and so much of the Greek language and everything

It's very simple. God loved us so much. He came for us in his humanity He displayed humanity he displayed what it means to take our place he loved us and his divinity

He's the one answering God a prayer answering God. He's the father. Jesus is the father This is to the audience

He inherited a more excellent name than the angel. So the son inherited the father's name The father is just passing down his eternal name to the human manifestation

It's as simple as that You don't have different persons in the Godhead that you have to beat yourself up to and try and come to that Realization or understanding

God just wants you to believe that he is one and that he loves us and he has a single name

That's Jesus unless if you say this is the one God, but he's not the father then

Apart from the father This is a good example of you not understanding my position and understand the

Trinitarian position So Jesus has a second nature you admitted that as well you said that Yes, Jesus has two wills.

It's called diathletism. That's a lot of Christians don't know this but that's what it is But no, it doesn't necessitate four persons

Personhood it does by all language. It does. I was really said Sorry, I'm just I'm just going to help you out

You clearly said that a person necessitates a will and if Jesus by your admission as the second member of the

Godhead Or has got the son at two wills then he is no longer a single person, but he's actually two persons

So if he's two persons, obviously, then you have the other two persons and then you have four persons in the Godhead That is your position and you will have to gather some amount of humility to sort of accept that because that's by your own language

You ready? Yeah, I'm ready. There it is right there. I'm writing this out.

I Said diathletism diathletism relates only to the incarnation to the person of Christ diathletism die to The let -o will two wills you already admitted that Jesus having a divine

Nature would have to have a divine will associated with that nature. You already said yes to that It also applies to the human nature you already agreed to that that's called diathletism

I also said that the wills are expressed as one will Because Jesus is one person

Which is the hypothetic Union when you said what you just said You're telling me you don't listen

I'm explaining this to you now. You can say well, that's incoherent It's up to you to demonstrate it's incoherent, but you've not done that Hold on.

Hold on. I let you I let you speak all these long things I'm just telling you that you are

Inaccurate in what you conclude and you're not hearing what I'm saying. It's many times.

It had to say to you No, that's not correct many times I've had to say to you this is what you've already agreed to and then you contradict yourself

I'm the one taking notes from what it is. You're saying it started here

We started here. This is what I've been saying, but taking words taking notes. This is on this I have another page and this is what you might not my notes here.

It's a 600 words so far of just notes All right. I'm not saying it proves anything

I'm just saying I'm trying to get what you say, right and represent what you say accurately Which is why

I said for example, is he one person or two persons? I asked you specifically and What you do is you say you say that you believe in four persons in the

Godhead. No, I don't Because look, let me tell you something Right there

I've taught on that many times Responding to that over the years.

I can't even tell you how many times Wrong. We do not combine the human nature with the divine nature

By not logical necessity God is something by that Matt. I'm sorry.

You're being dishonest. You just did that you just combined You need to You have you have to stop you have to stop attacking my character and calling me a liar

I'm sorry, but you are blatantly contradicting yourself. Okay. No, no, no, no, no, no, no Contradiction is different than saying

I'm dishonest Dishonesty is an intention of character to be deceptive. Let me ask you.

Am I being dishonest? I can I can apologize for that particular. Okay now good

Yeah, don't attack my character and say I'm dishonest sure it may have come out in okay

I'm going with what you I'm going with what you have said You've said these things and I keep telling you in Diathletism, it's related to the hypostatic union where there's one person who expresses himself as one person with one will

That's how it's expressed Go look at systematic theologies. Look up diathletism.

Look up hypostatic union and read this is what we teach I'm telling you this there cannot be it cannot be that the human nature becomes divine

We don't teach that we've never taught that that's Mormonism We don't teach that the human nature is fused with the divine nature

We don't the only place where there's a union is in the person of Christ Hypostatic union which only applies to Jesus the divine nature is still present in the

Trinity It's how it is by logical necessity, but we have the incarnation I've thought about this and answer this many times now look

I'm gonna ask you something I want to ask you something because I got to get going soon.

Look I want to ask you something Okay before you before you get going

I hope I can respond for a few seconds if you if you misrepresent me I'm gonna have to come back and correct you like for about the eighth or ninth time

Okay You wanted to show me something God spoke further to Moses and said to him.

I am Yahweh And I appeared to Abraham Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty But by my name

Yahweh, I did not make myself known to him now. Let me ask you Was it

God? Oh, I I I still I still want to respond to your will but I hope I can respond to that I'll quickly respond to that.

Can you can you go back to the page where you mentioned them by? Tell it ism by telepism or whatever.

Please go to that page. That would be great Okay. So this is this is to the audience and whoever's listening.

I'm glad you are listening Matt maintained that he doesn't fuse the divine nature with the human nature

And yet and yet here he says I said and I tell this is what he quoted

I said and I tell I tell it ism that the two worlds are expressed as one will and he clearly said that a will

Necessitates a person and and and it almost seems like he he gets to decide

Whether two worlds can be one one will no two wheels cannot be one will hello who wills cannot be one will and if if if he's already trying to You know surpass his accountability to what he has to be accountable to and by trying to dictate or other

Maintain that two worlds can be expressed as one will that that doesn't make sense Like when Jesus says not my will be done, but the father's will be done

You cannot say you cannot say his human will is the same as his divine will or at least his human will

Trying to be fused with his divine will so There you go, I mean In all honesty, it looks like Matt is contradicting himself over there.

And when he says He clearly says that if each person Necessitates a will and he maintained that there are two worlds inside the

Second person has got two wills And then he's trying to avoid the accountability of admitting that there are indeed four persons in the

God here He's trying to fuse two worlds as one will which absolutely makes no sense. You cannot say two worlds are the same will

Because two worlds cannot be the same. Well, if when Jesus was in the garden of Gethsemane, he had the will to Want to escape the cross, but you cannot say that is a father's will and and trying blur the difference between his human will and his divine will and obviously

You obviously cannot we don't have much time but all in all we can sharply see that Trinitarianism as as for how

Matt describes it you have the second person who's got two wills and he admitted that Each will represents a person

So if the second person truly has two wills and I know he's going to still move in circles there if the second person truly has two wills that the second person isn't a person but two persons and then obviously you would have like Four -person record and I don't think he would want that and no

Trinitarian would want that Jesus has two wills right you do you agree with that?

Yes, Jesus is Jesus is Jesus two persons In his incarnation he

In his in his incarnation. Yes. He he did appear as I wouldn't say two persons but two manifestations

No, I didn't ask manifestations you said Jesus is one person You're the you're failing to put the context of diathletism in the hypothetic

Union, but I'm trying to show you something you said Jesus is one person. I've got your ear of affirmation up higher on the screen

You said you brought the point each will necessitates being a person in the context of Jesus and diathletism

So which is it is Jesus one person or is Jesus two persons? Tell me which one it is. I Do this

Okay, I didn't ask you that as Jesus one person or two persons, which is it?

Okay, if if if I if I admit Jesus is power, hold on. Hold on I'm responding to you if I admit

Jesus is two persons, then you will have to admit there are four persons in the garden Okay, I'm asking you question

Is Jesus one person or two persons? And if I say two persons, you're just answer the question.

Is he one person or two persons? He is he is one person And why would you say that each person in the has to have a will in the title of you maintain?

No, no No, you're not that. No, I don't know. I don't because I'm telling you it's in the context

You took it out of context That's what you're doing Dyselitism deals with the two natures of Christ each having a will and yet they're expressed and men

Maintained in the single person of Christ as a single will That's what I keep telling you in the issue of the father being a separate person and the son the son

Himself is expressed as one person. That's a different context and the father and the son speaking to each other as different persons

You've committed an error of logic Equivocation, you've not defined your terms.

Well, look look I've explained this before but you don't want to listen If I say you are listening,

I know I'm very much listening. I'm taking the note. I think wait a minute. Wait a minute I think you're talking Don't you keep talking and going and going and going and you go on for two three minutes and I ask you a simple question

You offer another two or three minutes The fact is this you're the one who's saying in the context of Jesus, which you're misapplying from what

I've said You're saying that Jesus is one person, but he has two wills

That means you're saying your argument gets me that must mean he has two persons, but that's it works against you

And I ask you which is it either way you contradict yourself Because if you say he's one person that you can't argue that I'm saying he's two

Hold on if you say two persons you can't say he's one. Okay, so I'm helping you out.

I'm helping you out No, no, no, no, we're gonna move on because I got to get going soon I want to ask you something

This is what I've been I want to ask you right here God spoke further to Moses said to him.

I am that's Yahweh I appeared to Abraham Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty, but by his name, you know

Lord. He didn't make himself known to them now Was it God who was speaking to Moses?

Yes, it is God who's speaking to Moses and Using words like I I'm the

Lord and you still see did Did God did God did God identify him by his own name

Yahweh? Yeah Okay, and this is

God Almighty who's appearing so Courtney your theology. Who was this back in the

Old Testament time? Who was this is this is Jesus This is the this is Jesus as the father. This is this is

Jehovah. Yes This is this is Jesus as Jehovah, but Jesus didn't exist until later

It seems like you've got our oneness doctrine skewed inside your this because you said

Jesus Hold on the oneness doctrine is Jesus is the father. He is he is

Yahweh Okay, Yahweh before he came in the flesh. So so this is this is the son that they're speaking.

Is it you're seeing here? Son, who is who's the who's the who is this?

We said I am the Lord and I appeared. I want to know this is who is it? You want me to respond yeah

This is this is the one God was speaking this is this is the one spirit. Yeah His name is

Jesus Why does he say his name is Yahweh? Because Jesus is

Yahweh salvation. I thought I thought we were in agreement with that. What no It seems to be your it seems to be you have changed your perception about me

It looks like you look at me as a Jehovah witness over here because you're asking me a question

You're asking me a very basic question. You're asking me a very basic oneness question. I'm finding out where you're at Sure, but I already said that so this was not the father.

It wasn't the son. It wasn't the Holy Spirit It was God, you know, it was the father. It's the father speaking the father speaking

Father speaking God is the father. So the father is speaking and says that he appeared as God Almighty Yes, okay

Okay, I Had to go I mean I do in a few Not that anyone has seen the father except the one is from God.

He has seen the father So Jesus says the father has not been seen Okay So who were they seeing who's

God Almighty, but not God not the father You said it was the father's being seen

Jesus says it wasn't the father. So who's God Almighty? Who's not the father? Hold on Can you please ask your question again?

God spoke to Moses said I am Yahweh. I appeared as God Almighty. I asked you who that was

You said it was the father. Yes, that's the father. Yes Jesus says not that anyone has seen the father

Yes, so Jesus says no one's seen the father. You say God the father says he appeared and was seen

Just because so because yeah, I'm responding so who's who is God Almighty who's not the father

No, because you are looking at this as another God from the father. No, I'm not No, I'm not.

I'm not looking as another God. I don't believe in polytheism. I'm responding to you Who's not the father

God Almighty is the father Jesus says the father hasn't been seen.

So who were they saying? Who's not the father? Yes, they have seen out they have seen a theophany of these when

Moses When Moses asked to see God he did not show himself He did he rebuild himself in a theophany.

It almost looks like you have been you've had a you've had a very distorted foundation

For lack of better word because you still don't know that God in the Old Testament revealed himself in the often is

Okay, this is I trust me. I know very much about it I've been if I'm respond still responding to your question

You're not you're an answer the question this if this is if this is not the father over here Then you have another

God over here and and that's it. And that's what you're gonna be denied I don't believe in more than one

God This is why you have a problem your lack of Understanding means that you falsely accuse a

Trinitarian is something he doesn't believe which means you're so entrenched in your oneness That you can't understand the other position properly.

So here's my question God spoke to Moses. It's not a vision.

It's not a dream calls himself. Yahweh He appeared as God Almighty you said it's the father

Jesus says it wasn't the father so I'm gonna ask Jesus did not say it wasn't the father if that was if this isn't the father if this if this was from from which book

Is that can you please go back to that was John 646? No, not John I'm talking about the

Old Testament verse if this was if this was is not the father

Then you have another God over here, which you blatantly denied this which is why I maintain it

You believe in one thing, but you confess another Okay No, here's the question answer

Here's the question to answer who were they singing the Old Testament who's God Almighty, but not

God the Father Who are they singing? It is it is the let me let me respond.

It is the father. It is the father I never said it wasn't the father. Oh, sorry.

Sorry You said it was a father who was seen Yes Hold on the father was seen as a theophany.

That's not I have been seen as a theophany is the theophany God Almighty The theophany is not

God Almighty the theophany means God says yes, you don't believe the word of God You're you you call

Jesus a liar So are you doing according to you how can you dare speak about God's word like this and contradict

God's word it's God who spoke to Moses and he said that he was God Almighty and you said it was the father and Jesus says not that anyone has seen the father.

You are so stuck. Tell me who was God Almighty Who's not the father see

Matt Matt Matt by raising your voice and having a more better pre -eminence in your in your presenting one one

Camouflage my position over here. So who's not God the father? Yes. Yes.

I will I'm gonna I'm gonna very Systematically Respond to that and I it would be really nice if you do not intervene this

The God who is mentioned over here the God who is mentioned in the Old Testament that you that you are pointing me at That you are pointing me to is actually the father

If that is not the father that that must be a that must be God the Son according to you so if that is

God the Son that means there's a member in the Godhead who was seen and And the first and in the episodes of John John clearly wrote no man has seen

God at any time So if no man has seen God at any time that includes God the

Son also So by your definition you have got the Son who was not seen but you are still imposing the fact that God the

Son was Seen my position is very simple The father was the father did appear him did did appear to his prophets but he appeared to them in angelic or theophany forms and As far as his spirit being is concerned as far as You know, he's light is constant or that divine or whatever that majesty is constant.

No man has seen him But as far as the often ease are concerned, they did was he often is built a way to man

But unfortunately the worst that you took me to the Old Testament They you are trying to look at that as God Okay Let me let me quickly ask you the

Old Testament that you took me to Who do you believe that is if that is not reincarnate Christ? That is a pre -incarnate

Christ So according to you the pre -incarnate Christ was seen But in the epistles of John John said

John maintained that no man has seen God and he just said what 18 Yes, he just said no man has seen

God at any time. That's the father that includes of that It doesn't include the person with the rest of the verse does that include the persons of the

Trinity quote the rest of the verse? Does God in that include the rest of the person quote the rest of the verse?

Does I'm asking you you you are the one who says God is a Trinity I'm asking you does God mean the

Trinity Okay, you are the one who says God is I'm not the one you're not listening.

You don't want to listen I asked you to quote the rest of the verse. What's why are you afraid to quote the rest of the verse?

Matt see you're not listening. Okay, which is the worst which is the worst just for your sake you quoted it

Don't you know God's no one's seen God at any time. What verse is that? What book is it?

John 1 18 no man has seen God at any time the only begotten God in the bosom of the Father.

He has explained him Yes, explain what? God says

I will answer and God says in Exodus 6 2 and 3 that he appears as God Almighty Jesus is explaining this

God walked with Adam and Eve in the garden. Jesus is the one who's explaining this Jesus is the one who is revealing the true nature of who

God is because he's extract representation of God Hebrews 1 3 When Jesus says oh and furthermore if you did your homework, which

I suggest you do Look at John 1 verse 1 in the beginning was the word the word was with God and the word was

God He's with God And Let me finish let me finish in verse 14

The word became flesh and dwelt among us. The reason I'm telling you this is because the

Jehovah's Witnesses Ask what you ask and I did a let me finish

I did a study and I discovered that every time the word

God appears in the Gospel of John After verse 14, it's in reference to God the

Father now I've done my homework. I can tell you that when we prove it to me

Because Jesus says no man's seen the father. So who were they that is?

Here's the question, can you answer this question stop avoiding it answer the question Answer the question

I mean you you started the stream yard Yeah, so I can pretty much expect that you would have more time

Exodus 6 2 & 3 you said it was God the Father Jesus says the father's never seen please explain that Yeah, the father.

Yeah, the father is never seen in his spiritual form, but if he often is yes, he did appear to them Is God Almighty?

Yes, so God appeared as God Almighty, right? God appeared in a theophany.

What is the dispute over there as God Almighty, right? That was the father. So did they see the father?

They did not see the father in spiritual form, but they did see him in the spiritual form in the spirit

Would you get this in the spiritual form as a spirit? Hear me out when when John says God is a spirit when

John hear me out when John says God is a spirit You cannot see your spirit. It's as simple as that So when when the

Bible says no man has seen God at any time no man has seen him has a spirit It's as simple as that Who manifested to God Almighty as God Almighty?

It was it was the father just because they see him because did they see the father? Not hear me out.

Just because they see God the Father They did not see his spiritual form, but they did see him as a theophany.

I didn't say his spiritual form I asked you a question. You don't answer the question you reshape the question so you can answer a different question

Did they see God the Father? They did not see God the Father they did not see his they did not see him in a spiritual form

So when it says here God spoke to Moses and said I am

Yahweh. That's God. It's not a vision. Not an angel I appeared as Abraham to Abraham as I could

Jacob in as God Almighty So he appeared as God Almighty. Do you want to know where that occurred?

When Abram was 99 years old the Lord appeared to Abraham and said to him. I am God Almighty Why before me when when when the

Bible says when he says wait listen It is you it is you who is imposing who are imposing a

God the Son in this or sorry the pre -incarnate Christ In in in this Old Testament verse it is

You you are you are seeing it Whereas in one John in one John 18 hold on in one

John 18 It says no man has seen God at any time. My question to you is do you believe

God is the Trinity? I told you it's in reference to the father because the world

I'm just asking you Do you believe God is now now you don't reshape your questions.

You accuse me that I'm reshaping my no No, I'm asking you is God the Trinity God is revealed as a

Trinity. Yes, God God. So then when we see the word God, that is simply the Trinity. No So God is not the

Trinity. I didn't say that look you don't understand Let me explain let me explain one you're making a mistake another mistake

Is Jesus God in flesh Brandon explain the error you're making time is past present and future.

All right Time is I I was just trying to finish that one question of mine.

I am I was asking you if God is the Trinity Okay in one sense

Would you let me finish? In one sense in one sense

God is a Trinity in another sense when it uses the word God is not speaking of the Trinity And how do you get to decide that?

There's this dirty word that we can read. It's called context You need to stop you to stop you to listen you need to listen you need to listen you don't listen

Look instruct those who are rich. Oh, excuse me You keep the commandment without standard reproach until the appearing of our

Lord Jesus Christ Which he will bring about the proper time He who is the blessed and only sovereign king of king and Lord Jesus Christ Who alone possesses immortality

That's wait, no, no, that's a father speaking I'm sorry

Which was the worst you were asking I'm asking you who's the who

Alone who possesses immortality that that is the father that the father And was an unapproachable light who no man has seen or can see right?

Yes. Yes Yes, that is just in a spiritual form. Exactly. No man has seen Jesus in the spiritual form because he is the father and interestingly, so So then

The father was not the one being seen in the Old Testament was it just like you said it was

Yes, he wasn't being seen Spiritual form stop changing stuff

I'll be very honest with you. You have to get your foundations, right? I'm really sorry for saying this you really have to get your foundations, right?

Because in the Old Testament God no man has seen God at any time. That's that's a no -brainer

No, man has seen God saying here who they sing They saw it's it's obvious that they saw his theophany.

In fact, even when Moses Find where it's the opposite I asked you to define it.

Theophany is a temporary manifestation a temporary manifestation of God Yes, okay

Okay But I'm still curious to know yeah, what do you

God sometimes the scriptures and Moses went up to with Aaron native in Abihu and Stanley the elders of Israel They saw the

God of Israel They saw the God of it. Did they see the God of Israel? They saw the

God of Israel, but they saw him through a manifestation and under his feet There appeared to be a paving of sapphires clears the sky itself

Yet he had not stretched out his hands against and tons of nobles of Israel. They saw God they drink Let me ask you did they see

God? Yes, they saw him but they saw him through manifestation this on the theophanies Now no one has seen

God at any time harmonize them Yeah, try one statement at a time and I'll show you where you got problems

I think I think you will have to be the one who will have to harmonize this. I have no problem harmonizing

I've been using this since 1988 Sure. Sure. I It can be even before that, but I'm sorry.

I was born after much after that Yeah, it is it is it is but obvious God is a spirit no man can see your spirit and Who they seen who they say

God Almighty. So they saw the often they saw God Almighty They saw the often you have

God Almighty. Did they see God Almighty? Good. They saw the father Yeah, they haven't seen the father in his spirit form

They haven't seen the father's if why does why does God not speak? No, no, no, no

You keep playing with the word of God to make it fit what you wanted to do No, I'm not

I don't

Brandon I don't change a text. You're the one who keeps reinterpreting it as I read it

I ask you to read it. You don't even read the text You don't even know what it is. I believe and what the Trinity is the hypothetic union community with your mottom

You don't even know when I ask you this you backtrack on your words after I set you up God spoke to Moses it who was it and you said it's the father when

I show you the problem the father Then you change your position. So let me ask

Brandon you said they saw this is God the father who was seen Do you admit that was

God the father who was seen or is it was not the case? That he was seen God the father was seen as a theophany

Seen yes, right as a theophany Then then if he's seen as a theophany

God Almighty then they saw God Almighty And you're just saying how it was seen as a theophany now

Jesus says not that anyone seen the father so who were they saying who's not God Almighty who is God Almighty, but not the father

It is you who are making it is you who are making the Almighty different from the father that is your problem and Unfortunately in your know

God the father is almighty and the son is almighty and the Holy Spirit is almighty Yeah, can you answer this question?

Let's answer the question Is Is is

God the what's your question? What again is your question right there highlighted? I do not believe

God Almighty is Someone other than the father So why are you asking me that question? You said it was

God Almighty who was seen you're saying is even as a theophany which admits you're seeing God the father was Let me respond to you

Jesus says the father was never seen who are they seeing in the Old Testament? Who's God Almighty, but not

God the father See man, I want you to listen to me and I'm and I'm saying this to all the audience again

When God the Almighty God is the father God is the Almighty unfortunately in internationalism and in their own people that work they

There is a person who is the Almighty but who's not the father and yet they think that there's only one

Almighty that in itself Is is it actually is is every reason to deny the community?

But unfortunately, they will admit that they could not believe in three Almighty. They will admit it God okay.

That's for another day Now in the Old Testament when God revealed himself when the

Bible says that God appeared to so -and -so It simply means he appeared in the orphanage and I will prove that to you

God who in sundry times He proves one thing in diverse manners and in times Faster that is a different ways spoken revealed himself to the prophets

But in these last times he's spoken to us to his own man human manifestation, which is his son so in the

Old Testament, yes, they did see the father, but they saw a theophany of the father or they saw a sort of a visual representation of the father

But they but as far as his spiritual essence is concerned. No man has seen him until until the time appointed

To see him but as far as his spiritual and and and who is that spirit?

Yes, that is Jesus himself Jesus is the father. He is the one God Who came to live in flesh?

So yes, and and and by the way, our dear friend here had pointed me out to King of Kings and Lord of Lords So if he believed that is the father

Well in Revelations 1916, Jesus is called the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords So there you go.

You have people in the Godhead who are fully God and each is called King of Kings and Lord of Lords and yet And yet people will want to deny that they do not believe in three things or three gods or three almighty

That in itself is is every reason to deny the truth. Okay, can you answer the question now?

I Answer the question Matt already. They saw the ophany of his Yeah, see this what it says

According to you X is 6 2 & 3 was God the father that was seen as a theophany Which as you said is a manifestation of God that means

God the father was seen I'd admits you that God the father was seen good yet.

Jesus said no one's ever seen the father now Here's my question who was seen in the

Old Testament who was God Almighty, but not God the father Jesus says it wasn't the father

Jesus says it wasn't the father Sorry Jesus says it was not the father

Since when did God not become the father? Look so does it say what does

Jesus say not that anyone has seen the father. So has anyone seen the father? No one has seen his spiritual form.

Yes, it didn't say no man form Notice how you're changing the text God is a spirit

John 4 24 and spirit does not have flesh and bone to see I have Luke 24 39. Look. Yeah, so Not anyone has seen the father except the one that's

Jesus is the only one who's seen the father, right? Yes. Yes Really? When did

Jesus see the father? When did he see the father

He is the father when did he see the father he is

God Almighty so he Is the father So, okay, so he saw himself

He saw himself and yet it says that he was God Almighty who you say is a father and Jesus says it wasn't the father

So here's the question. It doesn't say Jesus wasn't a God Almighty. Isn't the father? When did

Jesus say that God Almighty is not the father? I'm asking you. Where did Jesus say that I didn't say that I said no, you're not listening again

Okay, this is what no you're not look according to you according to you

Exodus 6 2 & 3 You said it was God the father who was seen as a theophany, which is a manifestation of God.

That means God the father manifested himself Jesus says no one's ever seen the father

Yes, who yet it was God Almighty who was seen so this is

That's because you are understanding that to be that God that Abraham Isaac and Jacob saw the spirit of God But I'm saying no, they did not see the spirit of God They saw the theophany of his and the theophany was the father and Jesus says no one's ever seen the father

So who were they seeing Who is

Seen in the Old Testament Who is God Almighty? But not the father. Can you answer the question?

The the one who was seen in the Old Testament is that the of any of the father? I'm making it very simple Yeah, that means the father was seen so but Jesus says no one's ever seen the father of the father was seen

Yeah, that means the theophany means manifestation of God One sec

Matt You can understand this you can see me as Brandon I I don't

I don't deny you haven't seen me, but you haven't you cannot see my spirit Okay, you cannot see my spirit.

It's as simple as that you don't have to you don't have to complex things around and and make it like as if So this is what just so you know

This is what people do in oneness when they're pinned They stop reading the text and they start inserting philosophy in the issue.

Let me finish. Let me finish Let me finish What you're doing is now

Differentiating between the on toss and the attributes of the on toss and you're saying look what

I'm gonna do now Is even though God isn't speaking the way I'm speaking about the ontological essence of the nature

No one's ever seen the on toss the universal abstraction the transcendent nature. That's what we're talking about here.

That's not how God's speaking What you're doing is you are going into a whole nother level of explanation to get out of the problem

You're saying look no one's ever seen the Spirit of God the Spirit and the essence of God Wow So what you're doing is you're saying look

I admit the text says that God the Father Manifested because you said it's a theophany and a theophany is a manifestation of God So they saw

God the Father, but in order to get out from the problem now It's the essence of God and his spiritual nature form that wasn't seen.

That's not what the text is talking about What you've done is you have admitted you can't answer the question

So you have to restructure all of it in order to make it fit Let me also say that you

Responded when I asked you is God the Trinity you said yes God is the Trinity and then when

John says no man has seen God at any time you There's the father

I said it means what it means in context you don't want to Sometimes God is the

Trinity and sometimes he's not with it. Look What look I'm telling you a very simple look.

I'm trying to tell you Sometimes the word Sometimes the word is in reference to the

Sun Sometimes the word is in the reference to the Trinity. I'll prove beside that and and and prove to me

Watch this watch this to me in the Old Testament. That is the pre -incarnate

Christ. I watch this I challenge you to but of the Sun he says they throw no

God is forever and ever is The Sun referred to as God Yes, the

Sun is referred. The Sun is the pre -incarnate God. Yes, and I ask you a question Do you think that I would think at this point that God means a

Trinity? Yes, so you think I'm a Quiet, that's your exact yet for a second and let me finish

You're so rude, this is what your oneness does to you

Listen, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen. Listen, I'm going to check I Listen to me not get personal and if I'm getting personal then

I apologize, you know what you're right You're right. You got me on that. You're right. I apologize.

You're right. Okay now but of the Sun he says

Notice what this is going on God after he spoke long ago with fathers, etc.

He is a radiance as Jesus For to which of the angels did he ever say you are my son?

The he as a Trinitarian we would say this is the father because it's the father -son relationship

You are my son. This is what a Trinitarian would say today. I've begotten you and again, I'll be a father to him

Right, which is the he the father will be a son father and son

Verse 6 and when he again brings the firstborn into the world He says let all the angels of God worship him the he in the context is the father that says worship him

Who's the son and of the angels? He the father says who makes his angels wing winds and his ministers a flame of fire

But of the Sun he that's the father says your throne Oh God As a

Trinitarian we would obviously Understand that this is the quote from Psalm 45 6 that the word

God here is not a reference to the Trinity We wouldn't say that we are clearly saying that he is the context of the father

Speaking to the Sun saying the Sun is divine That's what we would there you go right from the text

I've shown you that there's place where we would from the text say God's in reference to the father.

Not the Trinity you said Yes, it does right there. Do you see that?

Let us let us address The Old Testament verse that you mentioned you mentioned that God that the

Person who was revealed to Abraham Isaac and Moses was the pre -incarnate Christ But But in Hebrews 1 3 it says

God who at sundry times in different ways Spoken time passed unto the fathers by the prophets as in these last days spoken to us by his son

And unfortunately Matt thinks that the Sun spoke or the Sun appeared in the Old Testament But this was clearly says that It was the father himself who spoke in different ways and and and that's how they saw him.

They saw him in different In different the often ease that doesn't mean they saw his eternal state about About the your throne of God by throne of God verse that you brought up That that's exactly my my problem that I have with the

Trinity if you insist that you believe in one God and yet you have a Member in the

Godhead who's addressing somebody else who's also God And you do not buy any meaningful since you do not have one

God left you have more than one God and unfortunately Matt and everybody else will want to surpass that because obviously they want to conform to biblical language

But yes, they believe in one God and it's commendable that you think that you believe in one

God but it's definitely sad and and this that that your mental image of Okay So you we've already gone over this you misrepresent the issue.

You've failed in many accounts to represent and answered adequately now I got a question for you here because I want to get going.

My voice is starting to go I've been on this for four hours. I already did an hour of radio It's okay. I did an hour of radio, etc.

Now and oh two hours of radio Two hours of radio. I've done two plus four.

Now that's six hours. My voice is starting to go so I need to get going now You're a one is Pentecostal, right?

Let me just ask you a couple questions. I'm not gonna trap you I'm just gonna find out where you're at. Do you believe baptism is necessary for salvation?

Yes, I mean that okay, do you believe has he baptized in Jesus name to be saved yes

Do you also affirm that Jesus bore the sin of everybody who ever lived He bore the sin of the whole world, but automatically the whole world is not

Okay, I'll tell you what we can do We can have a discussion if you want on what is necessary to be saved have your sins forgiven

We could talk about baptism We can we can certainly do that Matt.

I truly appreciate your request, but I think There are a lot of Areas in the oneness versus Trinity subject that I would like for you to respond to But I'll tell you what you done

I mean, yeah If you want to list out a bunch of questions You can email them to me and then later when I have some free time

I can try and answer those reproduce them and put them on the karm website with answers to them

Okay, we can we can also do that yeah and I can also I mean Give it up to you, but I I would certainly like to look forward to another discussion.

I hope it is known as Ugly as it seemed it was ugly.

Yeah, but I think you are so lost and deceived Yeah, and I think

Every Christian So if you are willing to talk Soteriology the doctrine of salvation.

I'd love to talk about that with you I've rarely get to talk about that with anybody in oneness who's halfway competent and you're more than halfway competent see

III certainly I mean I the request is is really great.

Let me also admit that Although I do know a lot of the salvation debate or other topic

Not that I don't want to pursue you but I would also humbly admit that I that I that there isn't a 100 %