Trinity & Oneness Open Discussion, 9/1/2021

CARM

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September 1, 2021

00:00: Mm -hmm. So let's see.
00:09: It's the number one And this is a one this
00:18: Trinity discussion Coming in and watching and And So people they will
01:24: Happen here is that people are going to Be polite in their conversations accusing and Mocking and things like that what a lot of people do and so Here People in there we go and other people listening
01:58: I can give you tips.
02:05: I can give you things to say to them. We can discuss that if you want to come along the end. You can do that and show how to witness to them.
02:13: A lot of times oneness people don't understand really the doctrine of the Trinity that they are arguing against and they think that oneness is the truth and it's not.
02:23: It's a heresy. So what
02:31: I'm going to do is I'm going to place the link for people to come in here.
02:37: No sound? No sound?
02:53: That is low. Let's see. How about now? Can you guys hear me okay?
03:08: Let me see. Okay.
03:19: Is that any better? Test one two.
03:26: Test one two three four five. Test one two three four five.
03:32: Test one two three four five. Test one two three four five.
03:56: Test one two three four five. Test one two three four five. Test one two three four five. Test one two three four five. Test one two three four five.
04:07: Test one two three four five. Test one two three four five. Test one two three four five. Test one two three four five. Test one two three four five.
04:12: Test one two three four five. Is it a little better? How's that?
04:30: Any better? Just a few seconds for the issue to go through and stuff.
04:41: Can you hear me now? Testing one two three. Four five six. No? Why is that all of a sudden?
04:55: I'm not believing it. Trust RM.
05:07: Oh, and there's Melissa too. Good. Alright. Let me think. Let me think.
05:14: I'm going to go and come back. Hold on. Alright.
05:21: Let's see. Leave. Alright, how do
06:03: I sound now? Sound any better? If that doesn't work, I'll have to reboot my entire computer.
06:10: It'll take me about two minutes. You guys can stay in here. So, Carmen and Alyssa, I trust you two.
06:18: Is it better? Sometimes people get in and they just hate me. And they say, that's no good.
06:24: And it really isn't. It's so muffled. Okay. What I'm going to do then is reboot my computer.
06:39: Okay. Still the same. Okay, hold on a second.
06:46: We'll work on this. Okay. You can hear me.
07:02: What I'm going to do, I'm thinking about the possibility of just rebooting the computer coming back in here.
07:12: And I think that's what I'll do. And then if it works, great. If it doesn't, I'll shut the room down and then re -establish it and re -open it up and put it in the new link information on Facebook.
07:27: And it may just be what's necessary. So, what I'm doing right now is shutting everything down. I have lots of windows open.
07:34: And it takes me a little bit to do that. And then what I'll do, you guys can hear me, is let me try rebooting the system.
07:43: A lot of times that helps. And I have a really fast computer. So, it should go pretty quickly once I do that reboot thing.
07:52: What I'm going to do now is closing I'm still closing stuff.
08:00: And out of that and out of that and then out of this and out of that Boy, I have a lot of stuff here.
08:11: I'm still closing. Alright. Melissa said it sounds good. You'll wait.
08:16: Yeah, I'm going to do that. What I'm going to do is shut my computer down for 20 seconds because I want it to be clean.
08:23: And it could be my mic, I know, but it's the same mic I use all the time and it's been charging and everything should be fine.
08:31: So, not only is it the mic, but every now and then a computer just needs to be rebooted because I use my computer a great deal.
08:38: And I have all kinds of stuff with it all the time. So, what I'm going to do now is just simply shut the system down and I'm going to put this in, let it be, reboot the whole thing.
08:56: I'll be back in about two minutes at the most. So, just hold on, okay? So, let me do this.
09:04: I will be right back. What I'll do is do that.
09:13: Okay. I'll be right back. Alright.
11:09: Now, can you guys hear me? Alright? So, I restarted and hopefully it'll work.
11:17: So, just tell me if you can hear me.
11:23: Everything looks good. Everything's fine. It should be fine. Sound problems, microphone, it's coming back, that's right.
11:30: And just let me know if it's working. Okay? That's what I'm hoping for, that this is a fix.
11:36: So, let me know. Alright? Time must work.
11:44: Yep, sounds great. Okay, good. Sometimes you just gotta reboot.
11:49: Well, I don't know what to say. Someone said it sounded good. Someone said it doesn't. That's what it is.
11:54: We've got 21 people watching. So, what I'm going to do is just stick with this. So, how many on a scale from 1 to 10, 10 being perfectly fine and 1 being really bad, give me some numbers and it'll help me decide if I need to troubleshoot anymore.
12:13: Alright? Give me the numbers. 10 being really good, 1 being really bad. How do I sound?
12:19: And hopefully we'll get people who want to come in and have this discussion on Monday. So, if I put the information up that anybody can come in, that they aren't
12:29: Okay. That's interesting. I wonder what that is.
12:36: 5. Okay. That's really interesting. Let me try something here.
12:42: Microphone. Wow. What I can do is do an audio.
12:55: There. That'll fix it. Duh. Oh, I know what happened.
13:03: No, I know what it is now. I Just learned something No, it wasn't the mic it was my settings
13:13: I had started this video a couple of hours ago and was in the waiting and it remembered a different setting and So that's what the problem was.
13:23: I remembered a different setting and And so I assumed that it updated the other settings but it didn't so now
13:31: I I got it solved Sorry about that That's what it is. All right, that's what it is.
13:37: All right. Come on you guys. You got any questions comments? You can get in here. You can talk we can do whatever it is You want to do
13:42: I'm open to having a discussion on the Trinity and oneness if nobody Just comes in to discuss things with me.
13:49: What I'll do is just talk about why Oneness theology is bad What NASA doesn't know everything you got that, right?
13:57: I say all you gotta do is ask my wife She'll tell you that in a heartbeat. He doesn't know anything That's how it works.
14:04: It's a 10 now. Good. We're back. Yeah, my bad. I checked the settings I actually checked it in the other thing and it looked like it was good.
14:10: So I'm confused but It happens. That's what happens sometimes. All right Now we're back
14:18: Everything's good, and I'm waiting because I was hoping to be able to talk about oneness with people
14:23: I've got another debate scheduled on oneness Let's see. Um, I Want this debate another guy wants to debate.
14:32: I just got so much stuff going on Researching kovat and some other things.
14:37: Oh, there's the calendar right there. I have a debate I'm looking on when my debates set up And that is
14:48: When do I have that? Huh?
14:56: Okay, someplace sometime. I already moved it. I'll check on my phone later Yeah, I do.
15:03: I have another debate on oneness. There it is on October 1st. Got it found it. All right Okay.
15:09: Well look if anybody wants to come in here, please have a discussion with me. You feel feel Free to do that.
15:16: There's the link you get right in you'll need a microphone to have a conversation and You don't have to have a camera but camera helps just you know, it's nice So, let me know interesting, all right
15:41: Interesting, all right well Asian Steve Is in that's me.
15:47: Yes, it's me. All right So are you one? Trinitarian or what?
15:53: That's why I want to ask you. I am Indonesian Okay, my name is
15:59: Steve I Have a bad English. I don't English not my native language
16:07: Okay, I want to ask two questions first If I if I have said
16:17: Jesus the salvation of Jesus but I don't have a full knowledge of complete knowledge
16:25: Right the right knowledge of the Trinitarian of Athens use Where am
16:32: I going to go? It would depend on what you know what you reject how long and we can't really say for sure
16:39: Because people can have different levels of understanding on different topics and still be saved and it'd be wrong
16:47: If for example, you were to say that Jesus is not God and you just refuse to believe that he was then you're going to hell
16:55: I don't put the Doctrine of the Trinity as an absolute necessity Because People can believe in something that's not
17:03: Trinitarian in their ignorance And still be saved But eventually they'll come to a knowledge of that truth because God will work that truth in them and then they'll be saved
17:15: It will manifest that they're already saved which is why they would believe the truth So it just there's some gray area in there
17:23: I'm a little bit more gracious about it Did a lot of people who would say if you don't believe in the Trinity right away, you're not safe Well, not necessarily because it might be that you don't have a full understanding yet and you know talk about it.
17:34: So Okay Okay. Thank you
17:40: All right. Do you believe in the Trinity? I believe the
17:46: Arius Arius's Trinity not not not that I don't believe the
17:51: Athena is Trinity, but I Can describe it in my brain in my logic the
17:58: Trinity of Trinity of Athanasius. I can only imagine the
18:04: Trinity of Arius. Oh No, no, no Arius is false Okay, Arius is false
18:11: All right. Let me do something here. What I want to do is I will share my screen and I'm going to go through a
18:21: Definition of God and the Trinity and if you guys don't mind, but I can do this and I can email you this quote if anybody wants it.
18:32: Now. This is something I'm using to teach on patreon and I'm going through an advanced study on the
18:39: Trinity and This is something that I have developed over the past year in my discussions.
18:46: It started with atheists Because a lot of times atheists would misrepresent the doctrine of the
18:53: Trinity and so what I would do is say no that's not what we teach and So you can see what
19:00: I do I do a lot of work I have outlines That's what I do. I do stuff like this.
19:07: So I just I have outlines So I have stuff that I do an outline form Different colors that mean different things for me and things like that.
19:15: And so I have them on I Have a month Calvinism science philosophy
19:22: Catholicism the outlines on the canon slavery. I go it just goes on and do different things atheism and I'm developing one on oneness.
19:32: But at any rate so what I do is This is my apologetics Biblical apologetics and I had to do is because it was necessary that I define
19:41: Who God was in order for people to have? Be able to debate it and and stuff like that and So We'll tell you what
19:54: Patrick what we want is For you to come in and talk to me if all you're gonna do is post links.
20:00: I'm gonna ban you So if you post post one more link, I'm just gonna ban you if this is a discussion room
20:08: So, please come in to talk now if you want to do that, that's fine Okay, and here's the link that you can click on and Patrick you can come in you can say the
20:19: Trinity's false because and we can talk But if you just come in and post links,
20:24: I'm just gonna ban you. I'm warning you. I'm gonna kick you out So I want you to have a discussion. That's what this is for Okay Okay, so good, you know, it'll be polite discussion.
20:36: Okay, but while you're trying to get in let me just read this There's only one
20:42: God in all places in all time. There have been no gods before him There'll be no gods after him.
20:48: He is the one and only uncreated necessary Trinitarian being eternally consisting of Three simultaneous and distinct persons the
20:56: Father of the Son the Holy Spirit the three persons share the same divine essence They call it the ontological Trinity, but express different functions in creation.
21:04: We call that the economic Trinity Neither person derives his substance from either one or both of both of the others
21:10: The Trinity is not comprised of parts, but is one simple divine being that should move this Oh divine simplicity over to here
21:17: But anyway, the Trinity in the Trinity are unity and diversity which are equally basic and mutually dependent upon one another
21:24: Clear my throat God is spiritual in nature non -contingent unchanging transcendent and sovereign
21:34: God has nothing against which he can be compared and defined. Therefore. He is Self -revealed in creation scripture and Jesus.
21:42: He is the ultimate source of all truths all actualities and all potentialities Goodness mercy love holiness, etc are revealed by him as an expression of his nature
21:52: Therefore that which is good is known by comparison to God's nature, which is holy and righteous
22:00: There is no condition in which the Christian God might exist or could not exist since that would not be the
22:07: God of the Bible God's incommunicable attributes stresses transcendence and his communicable attributes stresses imminence
22:14: He created the universe as well as people God is neither included in space nor absent from it.
22:20: He does Typo right there. He does whatever he pleases and ordains all that occurs
22:26: He possesses infinite knowledge wisdom presence and power that manifest out of his good and holy nature
22:32: Since he is the ultimate standard of all that is good He will judge the people all people that is those who have by faith
22:39: Trusted in the self -revealed atonement of Jesus who is God in flesh will be saved from the righteous and from righteous and eternal
22:46: Condemnation those who have not will face righteous and eternal Condemnation will be saved from yeah, okay
22:54: Let me work on that Have eternal salvation with him So I keep perfecting this as I read it sometimes go
23:01: I could word that a little bit better in some areas so this is the same thing with scripture references and So I'm still working on it at these means
23:12: I just have scriptures to put in and I'm doing some stuff. This looks like this is an older version It's like something happened to it because I remember doing all this before So anyway, that's what
23:21: I'm working with and the issue of the Trinity And so I've been studying it teaching on it for a long time
23:31: Okay, so I was waiting for that guy to come in here So if you guys are interested come on in and give me a conversation we can have a discussion pearls for pigs
23:45: All right So Welcome pearls.
23:51: How are you? Don't hear you. No, no
23:59: Don't hear you. You gotta you have to work on something. Okay, keep trying it
24:07: No, when I hear you, I'll tell you but I don't hear you. Just keep working it.
24:13: So who's the guy come on Patrick Eccles? Is that are you Patrick Eccles?
24:19: No, okay Well, here's the link for Patrick to come in he says the Trinity's false
24:26: Let's see if he can defend it still don't hear you. Are you on a PC or Mac?
24:32: Or your iPhone? Did you try turning the volume up? Can't hear you try coming back in okay,
24:42: I'm not sure to tell you I don't have an iPhone so I don't know Okay. All right.
24:47: Who's this kale as in salad? Are you there kale?
24:56: Yes, sorry, can you hear me? Yeah. Oh I'm all right.
25:02: So are you Trinitarian or not or what? Well, I'm not the guy that you were just speaking to.
25:08: Okay, I am So we've actually spoken a couple All right
25:16: So, yes We've spoken a number of times all right but Yeah, I'm actually not sure what
25:26: I want to talk to you about not sure if I want to This is an Italian. I am an infinitarian
25:35: Okay, let's see if the other guy can hear hey pearls, can you talk can you hear me? Yes now
25:40: I hear you Well pearls was in first. So let's go with him and then we'll come back to whatever that was it.
25:46: You said you were So pearls welcome Are you doing doing all right?
25:53: all right, so Biblical cosmology, what do you think of that?
25:59: I like it So do you believe in the heliocentric model yes
26:08: So this is Trinity and oneness discussion, but I'll do this for Are you a flat earther no good
26:20: But according to Scripture the earth is still The earth is what still says it's immovable
26:28: Yeah, and it's not talking about his position in space. What about its foundation? What about the firmament do you believe it's solid like No No, because Words can mean what they mean in context.
26:44: It says firmament can be used in different ways So you pick and choose when you want to believe something's literal in the
26:52: Bible, huh? Oh, no, do you okay? No, I don't. Are you an atheist? I believe you can read the
26:58: Bible metaphorically seriously Literally Allegorically, it's okay made to just be one because yeah, but I I agree with you that my car works.
27:12: Yeah Yeah, I agree about my car what else about my car you were saying so you think the
27:17: Sun is stationary, huh? No, my car is not red No, I said, do you think the
27:23: Sun is stationary? No, I said my car is not red Yeah So you just just I'm just all
27:33: I'm doing is using your words metaphorically symbolically interpreting My words, I didn't say anything about your car brother.
27:40: You don't listen. You're not listening to me You're not you understand the point if you're gonna start saying the scriptures just could be interpreted basically any way you want then
27:46: I can interpret whatever you say anyway I want because you're saying is there's no way to know what the scriptures really teach if that's
27:52: Listen listen to me if that's the case that's that's what that's what you're leading to it We've done this this this this this the night they ask you questions
28:00: I'm leaving the truth of the scripture and you're you're ducking it From what scripture really says, okay.
28:07: Can you hold on a second? Please fill in the luminaries revolve around us and there's okay to divide Is that what is that what you believe that the earth is is still that does a
28:17: Sun go around the earth? It's it makes a circle above the earth. That's what
28:22: I You're a flat earther you believe in a flat earth. No, I'm a
28:28: Christian brother. Okay Do you believe the earth is a is a sphere? No, is it?
28:34: Okay, is it flat? Earth is a plane of inertia. That's what planet
28:39: Earth means brother. I Can tell you have no clue what science really is
28:45: Yeah, why don't you tell me the five steps of science brother? And there aren't any five steps of science fucking idiot.
28:53: Goodbye Yeah, you look, you know, this is There aren't any five steps of science that guy's just a moron
29:01: Science has different ways of being looked at it's based on philosophical assumptions and you can't say there's just five
29:07: Some say five some say seven some say three and I was just trying to show the guy But he was just intolerant and wouldn't listen that.
29:14: No, it's not an exact number There's different ways of defining the scientific method which is what he was confusing with the issue of what science is
29:22: The method is different than the science so he doesn't understand and so I was trying to correct him then he starts cussing and Leaves, so this is the kind of mentality that we have to deal with.
29:33: No, I don't think so and He has lost his right to come back in. Oh, no, that's kale.
29:39: Yeah kale. Here you go if you are you're all right Yeah, hey, sorry. I got bumped off there somehow. That's all right.
29:45: That's all right I want so hold up real quick. We spoke about two weeks ago.
29:51: We spoke about transcendental Presuppositional ism and we spoke about Eastern Orthodoxy Do you briefly remember our conversation?
29:59: We had a very cordial conversation that I would like to continue that I don't want to whatever that guy just did is
30:06: Inappropriate and unnecessary. So yeah and foolish that shows us how foolish he is So I don't
30:11: I barely remember something like that. I talked to so many people, you know, sure. Sure. Absolutely Yeah, so Yes, so we had a very cordial conversation
30:19: I don't know if this is appropriate because you said it's a one this versus a Trinitarian That's we're supposed to be talking about right?
30:26: Sorry. Well, it's it's in that vein. So I have a unique theology
30:33: And I am what you would consider an infinitarian So where I believe that the
30:39: Godhead is not limited to three persons, but rather that every persona is
30:47: Whether you want to look at it as As part of the
30:53: Theatric Union or if you want to consider The essence instantiating every persona that exists.
31:01: Okay. Let's get some terms defined. Sure So are you talking about God?
31:08: Yes Okay, so let's define your God God is how many persons?
31:14: Every person mean every human being Yes. Okay. God is
31:20: Every human being okay anything else is he plants and rocks?
31:26: Well, so yes Okay, plants and rocks. So is me don't limit me to pantheism.
31:33: I am Okay Just going with that So every human is divine plants and rocks are also divine
31:44: Is God eternal or does he have a beginning? No, the essence of God is not finite
31:51: No, does he have a beginning? No. Well, I mean if he's not finite, he wouldn't have a beginning I find
31:57: I can have different meanings different context. So Yes, so he is he transcends
32:06: Temporality while being absolutely imminent throughout it as well. Okay, so he's eternal
32:12: Uh -huh and ever -present Okay, correct. All right, is he personal?
32:20: Well, I mean by definition if he's every persona he would have to be person yes, so every persona has its own mind
32:30: Every every every mind that every persona has is a particular to the universal infinite omniscient mind of God so you have
32:42: Different personal people like you me others are We're gods No, we are
32:49: God singular. Not God God. Okay, so how many how many? Okay, well just to find personhood.
32:56: Sure person who does so good This is a great place to begin because here's here's where we're gonna first diverge.
33:03: I mean, obviously we've diverged already, but So you would root? subjectivity within personhood
33:12: Whereas I would root subjectivity within essence We can't do that until we define stuff.
33:19: So what do you mean by person? I Mean so, okay
33:26: Everything that is finite about us. So your mind my fingernail is finite. So I mean
33:32: So your fingernail is a part of your persona. Your body is a part of your persona. Let's talk about personhood
33:38: Sure, okay I'm going to use those terms interchangeably persona person.
33:44: No, no, no, no, no, no, no No, we have to define our terms. If you start using things interchangeably, there's no definitions.
33:50: Sure, so Personhood, let's talk about attributes of person. They're self -aware.
33:59: I Can't hear you. Yes. No Yeah, so person is self -aware
34:11: Yes, but in a particular sense not in a universal sense, so I believe that the essence is aware of itself as well
34:18: Okay, so Wow Self -aware and Can it communicate
34:27: They were communicating now, so yes, well this person what personhood is can it can personhood communicate
34:35: It's the vehicle through which communication finite communication happens or illusory communication happens, okay,
34:42: I Think I'm gonna stop here and just say that you make no sense whatsoever you have no way of validating what it is that you're saying your your lack of definitions and Specificity in the issues and the the incongruity of how you put things together just demonstrates to me
34:57: You're clueless about the issues of logic, but furthermore where in the heck you getting all this
35:05: So I've spent a long long time studying this I was studying aware Through personal experience, okay, so your experience started by experience you have anything that's
35:20: You have anything that is serious so we can take seriously not just your experience Okay, I'm self -learned so I would think that that's the highest level of education that you can get so for instance
35:34: How do you know that as self -learned is the highest level of education where'd you get that I mean
35:41: Experiences better than book knowledge, but I'll tell you how do you know experience is better than book knowledge.
35:46: We're just getting all this I just got done reading Van Til's apologetic by Bonson, so I'm I'm learning.
35:53: I know what I'm talking about. No you don't so here, so Okay, no, it's because I disagree with you.
35:59: No no no it's not an issue of disagreement people could be rational and disagree I have no problem with that.
36:05: We just then discuss particulars. You are irrational You're not coherent
36:10: God is every human being let me explain Why would I say well what's personhood if you're gonna say
36:17: God is every human being I'm gonna start asking the issues of what? You definition of a person who it is because it requires a focus on the mind
36:25: But if you're gonna have multiple minds, how can you justify the universality of the transcendentals because they'd be abstract principles
36:32: But you'd have to have either unity of minds Which means it wouldn't be separate or there had to be a pair of caresses which means a death the essence is absolute divinity
36:41: There's all kinds of problems Yeah, I'm talking logically that's how you're losing me now you're you're walking and so you're coming in and out of out of whatever but You look you don't understand
36:56: Van Til you don't understand Hansen. You don't understand these things. Yeah, you don't understand. I'm not here you Okay Yeah, I hear you okay, so We need to have some
37:15: I've asked for oneness people to come in and that's what I'm hoping for so if oneness people
37:21: Want to remove him because he's coming in and out and now he's lost. So there we go
37:28: Hmm There we go Asian Steve don't know if you're still there
37:35: Okay, my last two question may I sure so Are you die with no knowledge no full knowledge the full understanding of the
37:50: Athanasius Trinity Where is Arius now heaven or hell
37:57: Arias if he did not repent of his false teaching would be in hell for denying that Jesus was God in flesh because arias
38:03: Arianism denies the deity of Christ So she haven't in heaven on or in hell now
38:13: No, he denied that Jesus Christ was God in flesh So therefore we would not say that he is in heaven because he denied an essential doctor of the
38:22: Christian faith Okay. Okay. Okay. My last questions sure, the the the
38:31: Criminals beside Jesus Christ Yeah, the criminals who accept Jesus he accept
38:37: Jesus as the king or God Well, I can't say because the text doesn't say he just said remember me when you come into your kingdom
38:48: He was appealing to Jesus and Jesus said you'll be with me and apparently that was enough for salvation That's what happened with Arius well,
38:57: Arius had open denial of the deity of Christ Arius Arianism Arius said that Jesus is a created thing
39:06: That the the divine aspect wasn't divine, but he was created. So Arius was a
39:13: Damnable heretic, which means that what he was teaching is damnable heresy. Okay Okay, okay.
39:21: Okay. Thank you Mr. Matt, right? Okay. So you're here. That's okay.
39:27: So you're from Indonesia You're Muslim I Think I'm one but I I Think I'm a honest because Okay, this is the last question.
39:43: What is the criteria? How can I be how can
39:48: I call someone? What is the criteria for say you are anathema, oh
39:56: What are the essentials of the faith is what you want to know, right No, no, no when no when
40:04: I tell you when Athanasius curse the curse Arius the anathema
40:10: Arius What is the criteria for? cursing someone He denied who
40:17: Jesus was What so far as I have read in in Paul book of Paul and book of Peter The criteria is those who are not love
40:31: Those who don't love Jesus. He may be anathema And then
40:37: I see are you? Yeah, I'm not Emma. Mm -hmm. I can I Can claim that I can claim that Arius I Not loving
40:48: Jesus. I guess but yes, I can claim he don't have a full knowledge of Trinity But that's not but I can curse him
40:58: Athena Athanasius can curse him can anathema him Okay, it's cursing
41:06: G I mean areas denied that Jesus was God in flesh Now Jesus says unless you believe that I am you will die in your sins
41:16: John 8 24 So areas denied that so areas died in his sins
41:26: All right That's that's why here because because here in Indonesia Mm -hmm,
41:38: Tunisia and the oneness is cursing each other Well, it's the one this is yeah, it's
41:47: It's cursing. It's other is the fruit That is nothing up. No the oneness theology is not
41:55: Christian Oneness theology adds works to salvation. All right, they add works
42:05: So what I would I'd recommend what you do. I'm gonna put I'm gonna show you something here. I'm gonna share my screen and Let's see get right into here, okay
42:16: Right here you go essential Christian doctrines. Okay, what I would suggest you do is that you would read this this is from Scripture, all right, and You can see where the statements are from Scripture, this is not my opinion
42:37: That's what the word says I'd read through that and then read through the secondary essentials.
42:43: You have to understand this and Then if you want what you can do is go to calm and it type in oneness just type in the word oneness up there and hit enter and It'll take you to oneness
42:59: Pentecostal stuff and the issues That are here with oneness and why it's false and You can
43:11: Do searches for the Trinity too, and you can learn what the
43:17: Trinity is biblically Okay, so there's there's an example the
43:23: Trinity chart So that's what I would ask is is to study it because our your language you're pretty good
43:30: But there's a little hard to understand you because of your accent, but I'm not complaining But I would suggest that you read articles first So that you get an understanding of what
43:41: Christianity teaches so, you know What the essentials are and the non essentials and once you know that you'll know why oneness is a non -christian cult
43:51: But it's not Christian. Now. They're gonna say we're not Christian Have the oneness come in here and let's talk
44:00: Because the Trinity is arrived at a Trinity The Trinity is arrived at Systematically Okay, it's arrived at by looking at the whole of Scripture, which says there's only one
44:17: God and It says that the Father's called God the Son's called
44:22: God the Holy Spirit's called God and we go down and We have fellowship with each one.
44:27: Each one is said to be eternal each one has a will each one speaks
44:34: This is exactly how we arrive at the doctrine of the Trinity just like this we say one
44:40: God and there's three fathers and Holy Spirit and They each have a will they each speak they each love
44:49: Well, that's what we call persons Therefore there's three persons That's that's it.
44:55: That's how simple it is to come up with the Trinity when the oneness say we we
45:01: That we Trinitarians are unbiblical I say well show me I'm just showing you how it's arrived at right here
45:07: Is this wrong and it's not wrong? Because there's the scriptures, you know has a will the
45:14: Holy Spirit All these are empowered by one in the same spirit who apportions to each one individually as he wills
45:22: Or Like, you know, the Father speaks a voice from heaven said this is my beloved
45:29: Son in whom I will splee The Holy Spirit speaks, you know That's how the
45:34: Trinity's arrived at so when the oneness say we're false This is what they have to refute, but they don't they don't ever refute it
45:45: And just as Melissa is saying they also require baptism for salvation, which is not true
45:52: I just spent an hour going over baptism stuff after the radio show today I don't know if you guys caught that but with someone so, you know, there's just there's a lot there
46:02: Okay Okay The next question
46:07: I have many question Can can
46:15: Trinitarian person course and anathema Oneness person.
46:21: Yes, and can the oneness person course and anathema the Trinitarian person
46:27: Yeah, they can do it They can say the words It's not the world.
46:33: Is that the fruit of this is Is that the best of sin? Absolutely.
46:39: Yes. Uh -huh Just because he don't understand the full knowledge of Trinitarian.
46:46: Well logic in I said earlier that That it depends on what they know what they don't know what they are rejecting things like that Okay, okay, okay your answer is yes they can right they can what they can curse each other
47:08: They understand you understand what I'm saying. They can curse each other. It doesn't mean the cursing is valid Anybody can curse and say hey, you're wrong.
47:18: Anybody can say the words It doesn't mean that it it's a different Different what you saying you are wrong is different with course
47:31: Yes, how about how about the free cynician council, how about the do not is the novice and they all cursed by the council, right?
47:44: You're hard to understand. I'm sorry. Say that again before before are you scam in Nissan council nation see note council.
47:54: There's a group I don't know Novotn ism. Novotn ism.
48:00: Do not ism No, not ism Donatism, right? No, but yeah, not ism and novotn ism.
48:08: They are good. I like Donat ism and what? No, fatian ism.
48:13: No fatian. No fatian No, fatian ism. I don't understand. And and Oh V a
48:21: T. I Did you just spell it out and Oh V.
48:30: It's a it's very It's difficult to understand you So Novotn ism.
48:40: Ah, yeah, right. Okay What about it? All right.
48:45: So yeah They are being cursed, right? Yeah Yeah So is there is that good for the church or what?
49:03: Okay. Okay, you have to okay You're not asking the right questions because you don't understand the issues
49:08: You need to go read go to my website and read up on Christian doctrine Need to read
49:16: You to learn what Christianity is because your questions you're telling me you don't understand what we're teaching
49:23: It just done an issue of cursing Okay, okay, okay, mr.
49:28: Matt, I don't I don't understand are you Baptized or anabaptized or Catholic or what?
49:38: I'm a Christian Yes, I I am baptized. Yes Okay, a baptism is not necessary for salvation as oneness will say
49:51: Yeah in history the baptized then the anabaptized
49:56: Were being cursed. So you Stop stop. Stop. Stop. You keep bringing up are cursed over and over different things.
50:05: I'll keep telling you you need to go study the issues It's hard to understand what you're saying I'm not following you.
50:11: I listen and then you leave me down a road. It doesn't make sense What you're saying from what you've said,
50:16: I think you need to study Christian theology first Okay Have you been to my website
50:24: Yes, I've been once and twice and I I've been in the Baptist Church here the
50:31: Baptist Baptist Church okay, the Baptist Church, hopefully there would be good but You need to study what
50:40: Christianity actually teaches. Okay What the Trinity is what salvation is?
50:48: So that you understand why people are saying you're going to hell If you read the essentials of the
50:56: Christian faith, you'll see there are areas we can say that about You're going to hell if you deny the resurrection you deny that Jesus is
51:04: God. Okay, that's what's going on Okay Okay, mr.
51:10: Matt, I think I'm gonna watch you on YouTube. Okay, we love Jesus and I love
51:16: Jesus He I believe in Jesus, but I Can yes,
51:24: I can accept that on issues Trinity, but I can describe it but I love
51:30: Jesus and I want to die and rise with him. Okay. Okay. Thank you very much Mr.
51:35: Matt, I'm from Indonesia. I'm Sorry, if I have a bad English Okay, I mean
51:42: I'm trying but I have difficulty hearing people sometimes I've I'm 64 and my hearing is not very good.
51:49: Sorry Okay, all right, well god bless all right
51:57: So Josh is in Hey, Matt, how you going? It's going. I was hoping to look one
52:03: This people told me they wanted to come in and talk This is why I did this and now one of these people don't come in I'm so tired of this kind of thing that you know, these people in their chat rooms.
52:13: I'll say let's talk They go. Okay, and they never do What is wrong with them?
52:19: They're they're afraid Come on. I don't know. Hey, um, I just had a question regarding the doctrine of the
52:28: Trinity Obviously before the New Testament It wasn't a doctrine. It wasn't, you know,
52:34: Jesus was known as the Messiah, but we didn't know in what form Necessarily he was coming in Similarly with the
52:41: Holy Spirit, so you wouldn't have had a Trinitarian doctrine before the New Testament. Would you agree with that?
52:47: Yeah Would it be possible that there are other persons of Within the makeup of God that is just not mentioned or talked about by by Jesus Well, no, why wouldn't that be the case because you can't say you don't argue from what is not there
53:07: You argue from what is there So to say there maybe there's more than three persons maybe there's actually
53:16: Venetians Venetian person from the Andromeda galaxy who are in the Godhead in the eighth dimension you see
53:27: When you argue from what it isn't there what it might be then anything's possible, right
53:33: And then you get to be ridiculous But let me run something by you this is something that most oneness people will not be able to handle
53:41: Okay, you ready? Sure, let's work with what let's talk about personhood. It'll go one person two person three person four person.
53:49: Okay Yeah now So personhood
53:56: You're a person. I'm a person Now we both recognize each other's
54:02: Existence right can say you and yours me and mine. You're self -aware. I'm self -aware We can reason we can think we can you know, talk things like that.
54:10: That's those are attributes of personhood, right? Yeah, okay. Now, let's assume God is one person
54:17: Let's work with that From eternity. God is one person one single person now
54:24: From eternity past one person. How does he exhibit personhood?
54:31: If he's by himself forever with nothing around is
54:38: Their awareness of others. No Can you have fellowship? No Does he have anyone to love?
54:46: No Any communication? No Reciprocity. No now you self -aware
54:52: And now what? Good could you could you not say the same thing about if you
55:00: Had a newborn baby and put them in a room by themselves and they had never witnessed another another person or another living thing like wouldn't you be able to attribute the same a
55:10: Newborn is on the same thing as God because newborn baby comes into existence. It's created by God we're talking about the nature of God and a
55:17: Baby is limited to physical senses in the physical brain and develops where God is not a different category
55:23: Right Right. Okay. So when we talk about the issue of personhood with God, that's the discussion
55:32: Since God is supposed to be eternal. There's no infancy. So that's just different right there. How is it that he could express personhood and That is a difficulty in the idea of the eternal nature of God.
55:44: Now, here's another in one this view Now, here's another question And would it be torture to take a man or a woman take a man put him into a room with no light
55:56: No heat, no cold just neutral body temperature neutral temperature He's got a bed, but you know, you know sleep and No communication with anybody
56:10: Not ever allowed to leave can't see and that's his existence.
56:16: Would that be Torture Yes, it would be yeah
56:23: Well, when we look at this, we're made the image of God Genesis 126 if that's torture for us Is that torture for God for an eternity by himself?
56:33: With no fellowship no expression no reciprocity since God is love for John 4 8 for eternity
56:40: Love is not expressed received or manifested I don't know.
56:46: I think you could put that into a different discussion like the There are certain needs or requirements of us as humans and if you deprive us of pretty much all senses
57:00: It's we're very different beings to God, so I'm not sure that's true does God have senses does he have senses
57:10: He I You get into you'd have to define what senses means, right?
57:15: Yeah How about this does God aware of other things besides himself
57:21: Sure, so he I would say he would have senses but he would just in a different ways to how we're describing it
57:29: Yeah, okay. So here's a problem if he has if it would you know senses in our physical senses
57:34: We get that but if God is aware of things other than himself Before he created anything.
57:40: There's nothing to be aware of Yeah, so then then in that sense, he's not doesn't possess any senses.
57:47: Mm -hmm. So it's another So so I understand. I'm not
57:52: I'm not arguing against Trinitarianism because I know I'm a trinity. Yeah. No, no sure.
57:57: So so it was it was more What what would you be argument against there being a fourth being in the
58:06: We're gonna work one two, three and four remember That's okay, they're gonna be
58:13: Unitarians their oneness people they're listening Yeah and then some of them have never heard this before I haven't ever thought of this before and Let's show you how the
58:21: Trinity makes more sense This is just a different way of doing it I mean biblically
58:26: I can back it up left right up down in and backwards forwards, but let's talk about this other stuff
58:32: Okay, because when you discuss the issue of personhood because of the Trinity three persons are one person.
58:38: They say it's one person If they say God's not a person then what is he but they say they don't know they might as well be
58:45: Muslim Because there's some issues here We have to be able to know to some degree self -revealed and Jesus is a representation of God the
58:51: Father He was one three and Jesus has personhood we can say that he has those as well Those in certain attributes, well, we can extrapolate and if God is eternally one person, but then there's no sense awareness
59:04: No, we're not saying senses like touch, but there's no sensation awareness of anything around him He is alone for an eternal amount of time without manifesting love or mercy or grace or fellowship or anything
59:16: This is problematic within the oneness idea Because it it it implies that the completeness and manifestation of God's character in nature doesn't exist or manifest
59:26: Until something else comes into existence But this implies a problem in what's called the a sea of tea of God that God is eternally self -sufficient is self -contained and needs nothing else
59:36: Now they might say well applies to the Trinity, but there's something else. We have an advantage in the Trinity that they don't I've even read material from oneness what says
59:44: Trinitarians can explain a lot of stuff But that they can't but we'll get into other stuff.
59:50: So oneness has a set of problems It doesn't express fellowship with God in the eternal sense.
59:56: He's by himself. There's nothing to have fellowship with no reciprocity No awareness of others and it's it's like there's not really personhood there now
01:00:05: That's not necessarily the case because if he's thinking of himself Then he's thinking of himself forever
01:00:11: But nobody else no other no love though So there's problems there. All right, let's work with two persons if we have two persons, then we have a
01:00:22: Solution to some of the problems but not all if we have two persons now gonna have fellowship
01:00:28: So one person two persons fellowship talking communing. Hey, how are you doing? I'm doing fine.
01:00:33: I'm doing fine. Thank you Like that. Okay, and you have this interaction now we can have reciprocity
01:00:39: We can have the manifestation of personhood and we can have the awareness of others Now that would solve the problems that seem to exist inside the idea of single personhood
01:00:48: But there's a problem that resides inside of it What is the fellowship and what is this exchange of let's just say information fellowship love let's just say love this idea of love now my wife and I we love each other and it's expressed and the reality of love exists inside of me and It exists inside of her when she's not throwing something at me because I'm being a jerk, you know as usual so she loves me
01:01:17: But this love itself. I can't take it out and go. Hey, here it is That's how much
01:01:22: I gave her today was this much love? See, it's got little polka dots in it a couple of things over there in the side
01:01:28: If I let go it floats and it moves with the wind. I can't take it out and say this is what it is It's an abstraction that occurs in here
01:01:37: This abstraction of love is a fundamental part of my personhood
01:01:43: But this is what's strange My wife and I don't have what's called perichoresis
01:01:53: Perichoresis is the teaching that in the Trinity the three minds the three persons interdwell
01:02:01: Each other because there's divine simplicity They just are in Mutual in this my wife and I don't have that.
01:02:10: She's downstairs with our daughters and I'm up here. So we're not perichoresis right now
01:02:17: All right But in God if he's one God the two would be in a state of pair it would have perichoresis
01:02:25: But this would mean then that that which is exchanged between them is an abstraction
01:02:32: This would further mean that in the nature of this God Of just two persons there be a fundamental aspect of their essence of the essence of the
01:02:43: God which is impersonal which is a kind of Abstraction love is exchanged
01:02:51: Hellos are exchanged. These are abstractions. There's nothing else it exists and so it would the problem arises in that it appears to be that there is a
01:03:04: Fundamental aspect of God's essence that is non -personal in the item that is exchanged.
01:03:10: Namely. Let's say love That's problematic because it suggests there's a fundamental aspect of God that is non -personal but God is personal by nature
01:03:21: Though we have a paradox contradiction that seems to arise It could be fared out even more but this
01:03:27: I'm just using love it works with mercy compassion and other things now Let's say there's three persons
01:03:35: Okay, three persons one two, three all right, so that means the father and the son could have the exchange of the fellowship that is accommodated or accomplished by the
01:03:49: Holy Spirit So the father and the Holy Spirit the son mediates between them
01:03:56: The father mediates between the other two and the spirit between the other two So that that which is exchanged within God is no longer impersonal but personal and the most fundamental aspect of God's nature and his being is personhood and personness personality and stuff like that and not import that which is impersonal and So the
01:04:19: Trinity and there are people who write about this stuff and they get far more details I'm just trying to make it understandable at the basic level.
01:04:26: So the Trinity then becomes the most efficient unit of The manifestation of eternal personhood
01:04:35: Without there being an aspect of impersonal quality that exists as part of the essence of what that is
01:04:44: We're single singularity Problems duality less problems
01:04:49: But now we have the issue of the fundamental nature of the impersonal being a fundamental aspect of God's nature
01:04:55: And that's that seems to be very problematic but in Trinitarianism The each member can be the mediator of the other two and be that thing that's exchanged inside what we call perichoresis
01:05:06: Now this may be philosophically difficult to comprehend but at least on paper we're going okay.
01:05:11: I can see how that would work But since God is maximally efficient maximally perfect Then the logic we add to this is to say for then for persons means it's not maximally efficient
01:05:28: The minimalistic purity of who God is seems to be residing in the issue of a
01:05:34: Trinitarian essence because it's minimalistically perfect by nature and Work for then you have
01:05:42: Well just for this you have something more than the minimals necessary and I haven't thought of the fortness issue yet And so this is why that I think like this sometimes and I've been reading a list of the worrying
01:05:54: But I've thinking about this for years now. Why is God a Trinity and Then some people have said they've read some books about this.
01:06:00: We've talked had many conversations and I'm putting it together So this is a hard concept to articulate.
01:06:07: So this is why Philosophically Trinitarianism makes more sense than Unitarianism or Binatarianism.
01:06:16: That's just one aspect Okay, that makes sense so Just just to summarize why there wouldn't be a fourth person.
01:06:26: It's because only three is essential and It'll be an argument from inefficiency for any more than three because it is unnecessary
01:06:36: And not yeah not necessary Necessary to the being three is the minimal necessity which seems to be self necessary and four is not self necessary If it's not self necessary and it's not necessary not part of the necessity of who
01:06:49: God is who exists necessarily Okay, so You mentioned before that you that there was some biblical references as well
01:07:03: That you might have been able to get into on this More just more just like besides besides the argument from it is unnecessary and therefore it's it's inefficient like the inefficiency of a fourth person
01:07:19: I just want to see if there's any other No, I don't have anything in Scripture that that that necessitates that that I'm aware of let me show you something here
01:07:29: I'm doing I'm still working through a lot of this. Okay. Yeah So here this is uh, this is this paragraph right here is the same paragraph here but with Scripture references
01:07:43: Yeah, let me just make it a bit bigger Okay, I put X's in When I had to fill it in like for example
01:07:56: God is neither included in space nor absent from it That's a true statement because we conclude that from the whole of Scripture, but his necessity and he created the universe
01:08:05: So but but this statement is an interesting statement Because if he's the creator of the universe then he's not included in it
01:08:14: And that's not necessarily something like Genesis 1 1 through 3 John Well, I go to yeah,
01:08:20: I could go John 1 1 through 3 also and Colossians 1 16 through 17.
01:08:28: I'll do 15 now do 16 through 17 and so These are the kinds of verses that we use to Demonstrate that this statement is true, but they don't in themselves say it
01:08:41: So we would say that God is not included in space because he's the creator of space as G father son
01:08:49: And that the father here, I mean a son relationship Well, that's a logical necessity from the idea of him being the creator is before all things
01:08:57: Well, if he's before all things then I could go to Ephesians 1 4 and Through 7 roughly talks about that as well.
01:09:06: So you see it's like, okay Where's it say that and I've been racking my brain every now and then trying to find other scriptures that fit
01:09:15: I don't want to make the scriptures fit what I want. I want to it's going to be supported scripturally
01:09:21: So goodness mercy love holiness, etc are revealed by him as an expression of his nature
01:09:26: Well, that's true. And the way we could say this is from Matthew 12 34 or Jesus says out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks
01:09:39: But that doesn't necessarily Necessitate that goodness mercy love holiness are revealed by him as an expression of his nature
01:09:46: But it suggests something like that. We can extrapolate that so you see this is what
01:09:51: I'm struggling with This is where I'm at with this right now make sense Yeah so I'm working through it and This is what
01:10:00: I'm doing on my show you this Come on, get up here. This is
01:10:09: Oh Wrong one. Hold on. I'll get this over here. I'll show what I'm doing. I'm actually teaching on patreon.
01:10:16: I'll to finish it up I do another patreon video tomorrow, but this is what
01:10:25: I'm doing. I've taken that statement there and breaking it up and then doing like three sentences at a time as I go through and then show the scriptures and then
01:10:36: I talk through them of what they are and there's a trillion and stuff like this and So these are the focus points
01:10:46: I'm now I'm going to start probably tomorrow I'll do Points four five and six and then
01:10:52: I have the scriptures and I said talk through them And then the funny thing is when I talk through them.
01:10:57: I teach myself new stuff as I'm talking through them It's just what happens. Anyway, mm -hmm, you know
01:11:04: Cool, so I've got one one follow -up question to to this As as the three persons we have obviously the records in the
01:11:16: Bible and what can be evident of the manifestations or the and forgive me for if I'm using the wrong terminology, but the manifestations or The attributes of special person, yeah the expressions and they seem to Fit nicely with how this how the you know, the narrative or the story or all that type of thing
01:11:44: You know God the Father and and Jesus the Son both have spoken audibly to people
01:11:52: Recorded in the Bible right the Holy Spirit not necessarily So just the differences between those
01:11:58: The Holy Spirit does speak to people just so you know No, he does but but it's not he doesn't speak audibly as Recorded in the
01:12:08: Bible. Yes, he does. So as he does did you give an example? Sure Let's go back over to here
01:12:21: The point the point was more like the are there specific attributes of each of the person hoods that are necessity that are
01:12:32: Necessary for each other or are they just being revealed in a way? In which
01:12:40: God wills it if that makes sense, I want to go over that a little bit Because I think
01:12:46: I know what you're saying But we need to define it a little clarify it the Holy Spirit said Set apart for me Barnabas all for the work, which
01:12:52: I've called them. That's just one of the several examples Right, sorry, where is this?
01:12:57: I'm looking at X 13 to 2. Sorry X that ain't it? Okay, cool. There's other verses.
01:13:03: In fact if you were to Go to let's see gonna make sure I'm gonna stop sharing.
01:13:09: I mean not that let's do this and then I'll go over here and Redo my screen here in a sec.
01:13:19: I got so much going on. Okay and Trinity. There we go And I'll show you something
01:13:27: There we go. I can I can read put this back in here. So you can see in X 829 you aren't if you can read it
01:13:35: But it says and the Spirit said to Philip go over and join this chariot That's X 829 in X 11 12 and the
01:13:44: Spirit told me to go with them making no distinction Distinction these six brothers also accompanied me and then what
01:13:50: I read X 13 to while they were Worshipping the Lord and fasting the Holy Spirit said set apart for me Barnabas and Saul, etc so the
01:13:58: Holy Spirit absolutely does speak and has a will and Searches the hearts and We have fellowship with the
01:14:06: Holy Spirit as well okay, and so so would you say that they're that they're right that they they are actual discernible differences between The three persons in terms of their their role or something and and does that?
01:14:23: Like Like any a theory and this is just me throwing it out
01:14:28: There would be God obviously has knowledge of the future and knows how
01:14:33: Things are to play out. And so he is wait. Wait. Now you're now you're talking about There's another sorry to interrupt you there.
01:14:42: No, that's fine There's more to what you're saying, but I want to focus on one thing at a time When you talk about differences, there's what's called the ontological and economic
01:14:51: Trinity on the economic, let's see What is it? See? Oh, I know
01:14:58: I did that article that way. So the ontological Trinity deals with The study and the being of the essence each of the three persons of the
01:15:08: Godhead are divine have equal attributes Omniscience on the presence holiness when we speak of how they relate to each other in the world.
01:15:17: We're speaking of the economic Trinity Economic from the Greek oikonomikos, which means related to the arrangement of activities
01:15:24: So to be overly simplistic We could see here's some examples.
01:15:31: The father sent the son, but the son did not send the father. Okay? Jesus came down from heaven to do the will of the father
01:15:38: Jesus performed a redemptive work the father did not Jesus is the only begotten the father is not
01:15:45: And it goes on like that and so we see differences and it goes on with the Holy Spirit as well
01:15:50: So that's called the economic Trinity. So yes, it's certainly biblical that stuff
01:15:57: Sure. Yeah. No, I think that that probably answers my question. It was it was more
01:16:03: Other other three persons. Do they have distinct differences from each other? But because they are one they
01:16:10: They are like the three pieces of the puzzle that you put together But the puzzle pieces are themselves slightly different or is it that they are all the same and they are all one
01:16:19: But they have just been revealed to all certain parts or aspects of them have been revealed to us
01:16:26: In specific ways. It's the latter. You don't want to say parts because that's called partialism and That's a heresy, but sometimes we just get stuck with how we word things
01:16:37: So this is called divine simplicity is the teaching that God is without parts, but is instead a single metaphysical essence
01:16:46: He is simple not compound hence divine simplicity He's not made up of various compartments like goodness love and justice that combine to form a whole
01:16:57: Nor are the three persons in the Trinity to be seen as three parts and make up the totality of God instead
01:17:04: He is goodness love justice, etc He is Trinitarian by nature to reiterate.
01:17:10: There are no components No sections in his essence divine simplicity is biblical and properly represented
01:17:16: Represents God as a Trinity. So sure The one this people will have a problem with this stuff when they look at the economic
01:17:23: Trinity because they're gonna say it's all the same Person doing this but then they when they define personhood then they have problems
01:17:29: They stub their own intellectual toes when we start asking the difficult questions There's been evidence for the last few debates.
01:17:36: I've been in on this, but so Trinitarianism answers more of the questions and Makes more sense when you look at Scripture and not brainwashed by one this false doctrine
01:17:46: Yeah, so what we'd say is divine simplicity Means there's only one thing that's
01:17:52: God not parts, but he reveals himself as three persons
01:17:59: That's it. Yeah, that makes sense I think it's um, it's one of those things obviously to get your head around Philosophically how the
01:18:08: Trinity works and not having other examples That we can kind of compare it to just just for us to actually process it is difficult
01:18:18: But I appreciate all that looks like there's a couple articles. I'm gonna have to read on your website to Understand a bit more
01:18:25: Awesome. Hey, I did have one one other question, but sure Um, does
01:18:31: God have emotions and Yeah, obviously they're different to Human emotions because we can be controlled by emotions all the emotions can affect us whereas emotions wouldn't necessarily affect
01:18:48: God Well, God isn't affected by his emotions. The emotions are Composite or part of what he is in his essence.
01:18:56: They're not a separate some something he manifest him perfectly consistently so I think it's more like in the
01:19:05: Bible where it says like God is a jealous God is that Is that actually this is is is that actually describing the his his emotion or?
01:19:18: Yes, is that? Or is it impossible for God to be jealous and it is more how
01:19:25: We are to understand him like in human terms because we understand the emotion of jealousy, right?
01:19:31: Yeah, remember he reveals himself Anthropomorphically all revelation of God is analogical to some degree
01:19:39: Even the person of Christ is analogical because we don't see divinity. We see the manifestation of divinity in human form
01:19:46: So when God expresses himself, he's expressing himself to us in a condescending way not an insulting pejorative way
01:19:54: But he has to lower himself down to our level. We go. Oh, that's called happy. You know, that's called love oh, we get it and so he his love and happiness and joy and all that stuff he has are perfect and and consistent with his totality from eternity and Of course we are not if you hung around with me for very long you did you say that's right, especially in Matt He's got a lot of issues a lot of problems, but God doesn't you know, he manifests all this perfectly
01:20:22: It's all part of the essence of the divine simplicity of what he is So your questions are good questions, but you in particular
01:20:30: I've noticed not it's not a complaint You ask good questions and you're on the border.
01:20:36: I just want to sound arrogant You're on the border of in a good way of Really progressing it to even to a better understanding of things because you ask the kind of questions that are just beyond What you understand and I'm seeing well, you wouldn't ask that if you knew this over here, but you're here.
01:20:55: I'm not mocking I'm not condemning. I'm not but I'm saying you're doing a good job. I see this guy's got it he's moving and you're asking the right questions and So in light of that I would say read up on perichoresis divine simplicity economic ontological
01:21:13: Trinity and study those and the person work of the Holy Spirit and then
01:21:19: You know not saying and then we'll talk no it's like yeah because what will happen is it's going to generate more questions that you're gonna have and How it all works and I can tell you know, you got a good good head on your shoulders.
01:21:31: You're asking good questions Mmm My wife she asked me questions,
01:21:38: I'm like My buddy today, did you ask about his wife? No, did you ask about the car?
01:21:44: No, did you ask about it? If they'd be what no, what would you do? We just talked about whatever, you know
01:21:50: Yeah, why are you not married? Are you are you I am actually okay, so, you know then right?
01:21:56: Yeah That's good. Now. I'm going through at the moment like I've Had one of those
01:22:03: I don't know Awakenings in terms of hey, I actually need to really understand what I believe because I say
01:22:10: Like yes, I accept the Trinity, but if I was to give a defense for it It would be very weak
01:22:19: And so I actually need to understand some of these things what one one one quick question,
01:22:24: I don't know how much you know about the the Catholic Church and its requirements for Unders for accepting or understanding or being agnostic about Like for example the doctrine of the
01:22:40: Trinity if you're like, hmm, I'm actually not sure but I'm not gonna say yes I'm not gonna say no. Are you are you not allowed to be?
01:22:47: Is that is that heretical in the Catholic Church? I haven't talked to a knowledgeable Catholic about that particular how much knowledge must a person have
01:22:55: Because in Catholicism a catechumen is someone who's gone through Discipling before they can get to the place of being baptized must be taught the official
01:23:03: Catholic doctrine So it presumption is that yes, they will understand these things sufficiently haven't been taught sufficiently
01:23:10: That's the general idea of what I know But in particular they have said things like well if you're really, you know
01:23:15: You don't want to have a full knowledge. The intention was this and that and you're okay So they have a similar kind of a view
01:23:22: As well as we do is views like that, let me show you you want to know the
01:23:27: Trinity go here Just go calm org forward slash Trinity and it'll forward you to this.
01:23:35: You want the Trinity chart? This is how the Trinity's arrived at that's how it's arrived at this way one
01:23:43: God and they all Manifest things this like this.
01:23:49: That's how it's arrived at It's perfectly logical one God So you write a piece of paper one
01:23:56: God and then you write the father's called God the son's called God The Holy Spirit's called God you write those three down, you know, and he right.
01:24:03: Well, wait a minute. They each Speak they each have a will they each are eternal
01:24:09: They each love for a minute. Are they one person or three persons of one person?
01:24:15: How does one person talk to himself? If someone else is out there he's talking to not my will but your will be done that's different persons
01:24:25: And so we don't have to add we just say this is what it is It's the for example, it's the oneness who butcher this stuff, you know
01:24:34: For example, Jesus says not my will but your will be done Well, that means the person of the flesh is talking to the person of the
01:24:40: Spirit Well, if that's the case and how is Jesus one person with two natures? So it risks the hypostatic
01:24:47: Union and it risks the hype the communicatio idiom atom and So what they do is then they start differentiating and they move towards an historian ism another heresy in order and then they had to use more heretical glue to make things fit and patch their theological holes and So this is what's happening with them
01:25:07: But Trinitarian it we don't do that We go well one God and they're each there's three that are called
01:25:12: God But they speak to each other they love They each have separate wills three persons
01:25:22: Simple it's it's the others who have to go to extraordinary lengths to make their heresy
01:25:28: Fit into the scriptures and yet the arrogant oneness will mock the
01:25:33: Trinity and Say that we twist scripture Show me how show it to me.
01:25:39: There's the there it is, you know Show me how this is a twisting of scripture.
01:25:45: Look there's no explanations in here Mm -hmm, just categorizations.
01:25:52: Check it out. If I'm wrong, show me I'm wrong and Then you might have something to talk about against a
01:25:59: Trinity, but if you can't the Trinity still stands So with some of these the philosophical arguments
01:26:07: For the necessity of the Trinity or Trinitarian nature of God before the
01:26:14: New Testament those Besides the philosophical argument you wouldn't have evidence that God was a trend in Trinitarian in nature besides a philosophical argument.
01:26:27: Would that be correct? No, so we have evidence of Jesus and the
01:26:35: Holy Spirit like you know, that's exactly this graph that you've got Do we have evidence of the actual existence and personhood?
01:26:46: Within God in the Old Testament alone Okay, absolutely. Yeah, right
01:26:52: I can show them to you too. I'm looking for an article I wrote I'm trying to find it.
01:27:00: It's a Trinity In the Old Testament, let's see if I I'm remembering it correctly because I wrote this so long ago sure
01:27:11: Thank you. It's more it's more like it's more left -field question. I'm just thinking like philosophers back then, you know before the
01:27:18: New Testament and they came across this issue and You know, was there actually strong enough evidence to Firmly say that in the yeah
01:27:28: Here watch this there actually there were No, I didn't know I've never verified this but my professor in seminary who was a
01:27:36: Hebrew scholar He is a Hebrew professor scholar His idea of a good time is taking the
01:27:42: Hebrew Old Testament and reading it and he said that there were
01:27:49: Jews back then and they'd written about they got these the articles or information written where they were talking about God being a plurality
01:27:57: And that were actual people who are saying that here's some of the reasons why I'm gonna go to I'll show you some stuff, okay
01:28:05: Can you see that is that big enough? Yep, okay in the beginning
01:28:10: God created heavens and the earth the earth was formless and void and the spirit of God is
01:28:16: Moving over the surface of the waters and God said let there be light God and the
01:28:22: Spirit of God and he spoke, okay God said let us make man in our image.
01:28:29: Okay So could would you not equate to like if I said there's
01:28:35: Matt and then there's Matt's spirit Matt's spirit is a part of let me keep going.
01:28:42: Let me just keep going. You'll see it One or two doesn't do it and after a while, you're going. Okay, I'm starting to see what's happening.
01:28:48: Okay, okay So look at this. Let us go down and confound our language. Okay? Okay. Well when you go here
01:28:58: Thus says the Lord the Redeemer and the one who formed you from the womb Now this is
01:29:05: Yahweh's name Your Redeemer and The one who formed you from the womb.
01:29:11: Okay. He's the one who did it. Yes, right I am the Lord the maker of all things stretching out the heavens by myself
01:29:18: Spreading out the earth all alone So he's saying as a creator. He's all alone right
01:29:27: Right, and so when he said let us make man in our image The us cannot be anything other than reference to God who refers to himself in plurality right
01:29:39: Hero Israel the Lord our God is one. That's the Hebrew word echad Okay, echad deals with composite unity
01:29:51: It's like a one cluster of grapes Where yachid means one as in one pencil?
01:30:00: One grape type type thing. Okay, that's how God is referenced as right?
01:30:05: Well, check this out Then this is Yahweh and Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh out of heaven
01:30:23: God's talking I sent a plague among you after the manner of Egypt I stood your young men by the sword along with their captured horses
01:30:30: And I made a stench of your camp rise up in your nostrils you have not returned to me declares Yahweh I Overthrew you as God overthrew
01:30:38: Sodom and Gomorrah God you're wrong.
01:30:44: God speaks about himself in these weird ways. I Will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and the supplications so that they will look
01:30:55: On me whom they have pierced the mourn for him as one mourns for an only son
01:31:03: You go, you know the people in the Old Testament. This is interesting. What's going on here? Now when
01:31:11: Abram was 99 years old Yahweh remember the capital L capital O capital
01:31:17: R capital D is Yahweh you go to a bod. Hey, right? There it is right there YHWH the
01:31:22: Tetragrammaton. All right, that's for the viewers So now when Abram was 99 years old
01:31:29: Yahweh Appeared to him to Abram and said to him. I am God Almighty since so Yahweh appeared to him and said
01:31:38: I'm God Almighty and In Genesis 18 1 now the
01:31:43: Lord appeared to him by the Oaks of Mamre as he was sitting in the tent Door in the heat of the day the
01:31:48: Lord appeared him Yahweh appeared him when he lifted up his eyes and look behold Three men were standing opposite him gone.
01:31:57: So he the Lord appears when he lifts up his eyes Three are standing there other men
01:32:05: But we know that the men aren't actually God but notice how the text is written Mm -hmm because it's
01:32:13: Trinitarian ish All right. How about this? God spoke further the
01:32:22: Moses said to him I am Yahweh and I appeared to Abram Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty But by my name
01:32:29: Yahweh did not make myself known to them because Yahweh was the name given by God to Moses in Exodus 3 14
01:32:42: God said to Moses I am who I am that's That's from I yeah, it has to do with the verb to be okay.
01:32:50: I am who I am though She shall say I am has sent me to you. Okay, and Do we get from here we get the the issue of Yahweh his name of Yahweh I am so when we go to Exodus 6 2 & 3
01:33:12: God spoke further to Moses said I am Yahweh. He's identifying himself as Yahweh Well, check this out
01:33:21: Here now my words God talking If there is a prophet among you
01:33:26: I Yahweh shall make myself known to him in a vision I shall speak to him in a dream not so with my servant
01:33:33: Moses. He is faithful in all my household with him I speak mouth -to -mouth even openly and not in dark sayings that he beholds the form of Yahweh You know what?
01:33:45: There's more I've seen enough
01:33:50: Matt It goes on like this. Okay. All right, and so here
01:33:57: Yeah, let me show you this too, that's the Lord you speak to Moses face to face
01:34:03: Okay, there's a man speak to this friend, but look at this You cannot see my face for no man can see me and live
01:34:12: All right, so that's 33 2320 but look at 33 11, which was just right there
01:34:18: Moses spoke face to face the Lord to speak to Moses face to face.
01:34:24: You cannot see my face He spoke face to face. Can't see my face face to face means a personal encounter and Yet just nine verses later.
01:34:34: You can't see my face Or no man can see me and live but he spoke face to face
01:34:40: Who's he talking to the plurality of God is there in the
01:34:47: Old Testament and lest I forget the Holy Spirit Let me go over to here The Spirit of God has made me and the breath of the
01:34:57: Almighty gives me life So the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament the pre -incarnate
01:35:03: Christ is in the Old Testament The father's in the Old Testament and we go to the New Testament. It becomes even more interesting when we apply those things to there
01:35:11: Okay. Yeah Awesome. All right. Thanks Matt.
01:35:17: I appreciate it. You've answered a lot of questions today Mui good. Oh Advanced Spanish muy good.
01:35:25: Oh, I said, okay All right Anybody else want to I'll put the link and if you guys want to come in and ask questions or whatever
01:35:33: Or I can try if you guys want I can explain why one this theology is so heretical I'm gonna jump out.
01:35:41: Thanks Matt. I appreciate it. All right, Josh. Okay watching Okay Okay, for those of you who are just texting what do you think so far
01:36:06: Take a drink some tea over here. I'm not one this Matt though. I'd love to To what to be oneness?
01:36:15: If you guys want to come on in and just ask questions or talk, that's fine But I you know,
01:36:22: I'm gonna tell you why if no one comes in I'll tell you why one this is damnable Downable heresy
01:36:33: That's why we do that Okay, could you please do that? Yeah, thanks. I will I'm gonna get my
01:36:40: Outlines and one this going something. There's some place over here. I got so many things and I'll get that open first.
01:36:50: I put my notes in as I'm talking All right. Let's see. I Have so much.
01:36:56: Could you please explain that day nine six and how it doesn't prove oneness? Okay, let me get my things opened up Let's see outline to see
01:37:04: I had it a little while ago. Let me swing do this.
01:37:11: I thought I'd put it right there and Give myself a little mental break while I'm looking for it because I want to Put my notes into it while I'm teaching it
01:37:28: So hold on Calvinism kovid apologetics
01:37:39: Catholicism government Eastern Orthodoxy science SDA Maybe that's what
01:37:45: I was starting. I didn't start the other one yet. Maybe that's what it was How long the one this yes
01:37:57: Hey Remy Okay, did you have questions or No You're awfully muffled you're awfully muffled for me
01:38:13: I'm straining to hear you All right, what is the difference between the hypothetic union communicator with your motto
01:38:33: The hypostatic union is the teaching and I'll get to Isaiah 9 6 next The hypostatic union is a teaching that in the one person of Christ are two distinct simultaneous natures
01:38:43: The communicator idiom atom says that the attributes of both natures are ascribed to the single person
01:38:50: So Jesus is one person Okay with two natures inside of him inside of his physical whatever and So in the one person are two natures a divine nature and a human nature
01:39:04: The communicator idiom atom says that the attributes of the divine nature and the human nature are ascribed to the single person
01:39:10: So that the person would say I am Thirsty, I will be with you always even to the end of the earth
01:39:18: So the person claims actually the attributes of both the divine nature and the human nature so the communicator idiom atom means the communication of the attributes where the attributes of those natures are
01:39:31: Communicated to the person the one person has the attributes of both natures That's what that is
01:39:38: Okay Isaiah 9 6. Let me go to Isaiah 9 6 and I'll show you There's so much stuff.
01:39:48: I get fixed. Oh, I know about fixing things. Let me go like that These are my this is my early notes on oneness
01:39:56: Which I could share with you guys. But anyway, let me do this go to Isaiah 9 6. Okay Now I'll share the screen so you can see it
01:40:09: This is what it says. Why is that? That's weird. Why is that go over there like that? Huh?
01:40:20: I was here 9 6 for a child will be born to us a son will be given to us and the government will rest on his
01:40:25: Shoulders and I ask people the one this people I'm gonna ask him serious question. Let's say what does it mean?
01:40:32: That the government will rest on his shoulders I'm just asking you know, and they're saying you're not paying attention to the text.
01:40:38: That's exactly what I'm doing. What is the text mean? his name
01:40:45: How many names is that it's singular right his name singular, right noun singular
01:40:53: His name will be called his one name will be called wonderful counselor mighty God eternal father prince of peace
01:41:01: So what they'll do is they'll say see he's the eternal father Well, is he the wonderful counselor is it?
01:41:12: Yes. Is he the prince of peace? Yes His name is that His name is wonderful counselor, or is it
01:41:19: Jesus? Oh, no, it's Jesus. Then. Why does it say his name is wonderful counselor? Well, he's pointing about attributes of him.
01:41:26: Okay. So then this is an attribute of fatherness in him a Peace in him of mighty
01:41:33: God. What does it mean? And I ask questions not trying to be confusing It's just what does it mean?
01:41:38: I want answers. I Show you guys something.
01:41:50: This is the book of the generations of Adam Adam means Man Okay, it means man
01:42:03: Created male and female. This is Genesis 5 Seth Then Enos Actually, I just remembered
01:42:13: I have this Find this
01:42:25: I'll show you what I what it is why I'm bringing this up about the issue of the name Okay, let's see
01:42:33: I Think I have it in here Maybe I don't thought
01:42:50: I did because what it is Yeah here I do. I knew I did All right
01:42:57: So this is the word Adam and it means man his son Seth means appointed
01:43:03: Enos it's a son of Seth means mortal Kenan the son of Enos means sorrow
01:43:09: So Mahal is a blessed God Jared Enoch Methuselah Lamech Noah, this is the genealogy of Genesis 5 man appointed mortal sorrow blessed
01:43:21: God shall come down teaching his death shall bring to the despairing rest comfort it's a typological representation of the incarnation and the gospel message
01:43:35: Okay so When you do this you can get a sentence out of it, it's like, you know, the
01:43:42: Indians where's running bear? Oh, he's playing with Prancing deer. Okay.
01:43:48: So Methuselah means when he dies it will come or his death shall bring this kind of thing is going on in the issue of Genesis Excuse me,
01:43:59: Isaiah 9 6 When we think of the word name like my name is
01:44:05: Matthew Jesus names Matthew And what they what Matthew means incidentally is gift of God the word
01:44:13: Nathan Nathan. It means to give and So God's name
01:44:18: Yahweh means I am so when he says his name it carries this idea of the name representing the essence and the character
01:44:27: So his name is wonderful counselor character of it the mighty God character the eternal father character the
01:44:32: Prince of Peace character This is interesting because his name will be called these things but it's talking about the essence of the nature of what it is in a
01:44:40: Generic kind of a thing as it represents his aspects in his work in his ministry. Just as in in this each person represented
01:44:53: Something that was related to the character That's what's going on here So some people will say well
01:45:00: Matt that means then that Jesus is the eternal father If he is the eternal father, then he can't be a representation of the father.
01:45:10: You see if I have If I have
01:45:16: I don't know, I'd be a good example get something around here. I Could use my gun, but I won't
01:45:24: Anyway doesn't matter so I guess explain this so if Something represents something else.
01:45:35: I know what I'll do the ring This represents my marriage vow. This is not the marriage vow.
01:45:43: This is a ring a wedding ring the representation of this
01:45:50: Ring this represents my marriage commitment my verbal commitment my commitment.
01:45:56: It's a covenant sign The representation of something is not the something
01:46:03: It's a representation of it So when we go to Hebrews 1 3, he's the radiance of his glory in the exact representation of his nature
01:46:14: Whose nature? God and as after he spoke long ago in the fathers and the prophets in many portions of many ways
01:46:22: These last days have spoken to us in his son. Oh, he's speaking as a father in the Old Testament Right, that's who
01:46:28: God Almighty is, right? But now he's spoken of in his son Now they're gonna say well, wait a minute the son of the father that there's the same thing.
01:46:37: That's just the oneness Whom he appointed heir of all things through whom also he made the world
01:46:42: He the son is the radiance of his glory whose glory
01:46:48: The father's glory God's glory and the exact representation of his nature.
01:46:53: That's God's nature So he is the radiance that he there is the Son Jesus is the representation of his the
01:47:01: God's nature in this case the father He would say So he isn't
01:47:08: The father because he's a representation of the father But then the oneness will come back and they'll say something like wait a minute
01:47:16: You gotta understand this man. You understand There we go that Jesus In his human self was speaking to the divine self.
01:47:27: I've heard that from oneness people Well, what's personhood? Personhood is that you have a mind you have a will you can think you can speak
01:47:35: I'm gonna open up a windows getting hot in here and things like that if that's the case then
01:47:43: We have two persons right there But the oneness is stuck because they're gonna play logical footsies with heresy
01:47:52: I Play footsies with heresy what they're gonna do is they're gonna say look The thought this this the person of Jesus because I asked is he a person they'll say yes
01:48:04: Does he have two natures? Too much wind on me Is that gonna blow the mic?
01:48:11: Let's see. There we go. So the persons look at me back in focus
01:48:18: All right Working good, okay Now Okay, so in oneness theology, who's
01:48:28: Jesus and we'll talk about this Jesus is the one person with two natures
01:48:34: He says I am hungry and I'll be with you always the eye is claiming the attributes of both natures and he's only one person is not two persons if they were to say that in the body of Christ are two distinct persons
01:48:48: Then that would be an historian ism And historian ism says in the one body is a person called the
01:48:55: God and another person called a Human a human person.
01:49:00: There's two persons and they speak at different times But that's a problem
01:49:07: Because if there's two persons not one person, then how is the sacrifice of divine value?
01:49:14: How is the sacrifice actually God where he says they look upon me whom they have pierced Because it would not be the divine that is being pierced because the person is not represented as singularity
01:49:24: But as two persons in the story an ism and only one of them was crucified that would have to be the human person
01:49:31: Therefore the divine aspect is not involved in the crucifixion and did not make it a part of the payment
01:49:36: This is why the story an ism is so damnable in its heresy and oneness Dances goes to bed and fornicates with this heresy
01:49:46: It does this in the sense that what it says is well the body of Christ is the human nature speaking to To God to God in heaven, you know, for example
01:50:01: Jesus is in the garden garden of Gethsemane and He's praying Withdrew from the stone throw and knelt down and began to pray saying father
01:50:09: If you're willing to remove this cup from me not my will but yours will be done Okay, so he's praying to the father now, here's the right question who is praying to the father
01:50:20: Is it the person of Jesus praying to the father? If they say yes, then
01:50:27: Jesus is a person with divine value who's praying to the father. Who's another person? That's two persons.
01:50:33: They refute their own oneness if they say no, it's the the human nature speaking to the divine nature
01:50:40: Well, then our father who's in heaven remember Matthew 11 12 Luke 6 6 12
01:50:46: Look live. I'm for our father who art in heaven this stuff about the prayer. Well, then that would not be an incarnation.
01:50:52: Would it? You've been in dwelling to the father and dwells me, but it's not an incarnation
01:50:58: If there's no incarnation, you don't have the truth. They look upon me whom they have pierced You don't have that out of Zechariah 12 10
01:51:05: So who's Jesus praying to they're gonna have to say he's praying to himself But if he's praying to himself, he's in heaven.
01:51:13: How is he in heaven? Now? They I've heard different explanations for this I've heard
01:51:19: Oneness try and make sense of it. And when I started asking their questions I really can't get very far because they just can't make sense of it
01:51:28: They don't know how to articulate what they think and they argue themselves in circles It's very difficult to find out exactly what
01:51:36: Official one this theology teaches about this because they don't always answer the same way
01:51:43: So who was Jesus praying to? If it's himself, then how could the father be in heaven if he's the father?
01:51:52: Well, if it was just this flesh playing praying to the spirit the spirit was out there Well, then there's no incarnation if he wants to say no the spirit of the father was in him
01:52:02: But the spirit of the father is also everywhere Then why is he addressing the father as another person as we define personhood?
01:52:10: If he's his own person There are questions that the oneness people cannot rationally answer they can answer them
01:52:19: Irrationally, and this is why what I will do with oneness people is if they're willing to have a serious
01:52:24: In -depth discussion. I will take notes from their answers Because I know for a fact that they're going to stub their toe on the logical rock of truth
01:52:38: And they won't be able to surmount the problems that are going to be discovered by examining their questions their issues logically
01:52:46: Now they're going to say to me though. The Trinity is illogical I've had many people over the years say the
01:52:52: Trinity is illogical. I say, okay Please Show me how it's illogical.
01:52:58: What I want to do is write down your statements make sure that your statements of what I'm writing is exactly what you're saying and Then we'll examine this to see if what you're saying is accurate.
01:53:09: It can we do that? And I've had people say well, yeah, let's do that. Not very often though and so They'll start and they they don't even define the
01:53:20: Trinity properly or they draw an improper conclusion and I have to Tell them no, that's improper
01:53:27: No, it is. It's right. No, it's a category error. No, you know, you're equivocating. No, you're this, you know
01:53:32: In fact, I was watching I've been entertaining myself lately by watching flat -earth videos where people who are knowledgeable about physics and science refute the
01:53:43: The stupidity of flat -earth stuff now just so you know, I love science and If I could go back and do things over again
01:53:51: I'd want to get a master probably about bachelors in biology evolutionary biology because I love that stuff
01:53:57: I don't believe it, but I'd want to do it. I love science I took all the advanced stuff in high school was exempt from stuff in college all science and math requirements
01:54:05: I was exempt from I took advanced stuff. Okay. The reason I'm saying that is I was listening to this guy
01:54:11: Understood a lot of what he was saying formulas and mass acceleration and kinetic energy and centripetal force and and Various things
01:54:20: I'm going. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, and something I have no idea what he's talking about But the point is okay. He made a statement.
01:54:26: I thought was really interesting It wasn't this exact wording, but he said the flat -earthers don't even know enough about science to know
01:54:34: How foolish they are in their argumentation and I went yep
01:54:39: Because I because I know some of the flat -earth arguments and they're just ridiculous. Okay. Well, anyway, sometimes the same kind of a thing happens here sometimes in that I'll be talking with someone and they'll make a logic error and I'll try and show them it's a logic error and They can't see it.
01:54:59: And I've actually had to say to people you need to go study logic You just study the proper law proper inference.
01:55:04: You just study why one thing does not necessitate another You have to understand what a syllogism is you have to understand what logical deduction abduction is
01:55:12: You got to understand these things if you're going to argue at this level and a lot of times they just don't in fact
01:55:17: I will read some of the comments that are made on the Facebook pages on these by these oneness people about the
01:55:23: Trinity but they don't understand what they're talking about and their statements don't necessitate the conclusions that they're they're you know hinting at and So this is why
01:55:34: I've offered the opportunity to come in here As I'm being nice, you know, you disagree you disagree, but let's talk and I'll put the
01:55:45: Link in again if you want to come in here oneness people if you want to come in, I'm not gonna be mad I'm not gonna mock you
01:55:51: Okay, I'm not out here to hurt you. All right So what's your thought on Colossians 2 12 and 13 is it stating that we these these spiritual renewal regeneration comes through faith
01:56:04: There's an off -topic I'll look at it really quickly but It says having been buried with him in baptism
01:56:11: In which you were raised up through him through faith in the working of God who raised him from the dead when you were dead In your transgressions and his uncircumcision of your flesh.
01:56:19: He made you alive together with him having forgiven us all our transgressions I don't think it deals with the issue there of the order salutes and So I don't think
01:56:28: I scripture really works there Let's see one is assumed that God is only the Father and they can't show scripture for this here's a it reminds me
01:56:35: Remy Sometimes what they will say is show me a verse that says God is three persons
01:56:43: You can't do it. Can you Trinitarian? This is an example of faulty logic. You can't do it
01:56:49: There's no verse that says God is a Trinity right or that there's three persons.
01:56:54: There's nothing like that, man I have so refuted a Trinity with that that statement that truth and they don't know
01:57:01: That that you don't have to have a statement in a 21st century context written about a doctrine
01:57:08: We understand written from 2 ,000 years ago You don't have to have it like that The Bible never mentions the word atheism, but it says the fool in his heart has said there is no
01:57:20: God Psalm 14 1 So it understands the idea of atheism, but doesn't use the word atheism well,
01:57:27: I Could use a logic back and I could say show me a verse in the Bible that says God is one person
01:57:33: It doesn't occur well, if they can't show that then why would they demand a certain standard of Linguistic necessity in the
01:57:42: New Testament as well or the Bible as well and you see their thinking is illogical
01:57:47: These are the kinds of things that they bring up It just don't make any sense, but they don't understand logic enough to be able to say that to see it.
01:57:56: Okay? Yeah Can you let me go ahead? Yeah now? Yeah any muffling or anything?
01:58:04: yeah, so I've also been dealing with oneness and modalism for half a year or more and One of my favorite go to verses script or passages because it's not one single verse
01:58:18: And I have yet to see anybody try to tackle it from a little scripture John chapter 12 verses 27 through 29 where Jesus invokes the
01:58:30: Father Glorify your name and the Father responds audibly
01:58:35: I have done I have done so and will do so again and the Apostles immediately after is
01:58:42: John writes and the Apostles heard the voice like a thunder None of them have explained this and could and I would
01:58:51: I would enjoy it But they can't but they can't if they could explain it it would go from Illusion, they would go from fiction.
01:58:59: They would never they would never go to scripture. Oh Yeah, I think I'm gonna memorize that pericope.
01:59:05: In fact, here's I'm gonna do Let's watch this This is what I do This is my outlines on oneness.
01:59:13: This is the very early stages of it It's only two pages long and I do verses examined and I'm gonna go here
01:59:21: X's mean. It's not yet finished and So John let's see.
01:59:28: Here we go. Whoops. Oh, come on. There we go. Okay, and Which means
01:59:38: I have to I see the X's over here, which means go look at that verse My Catholicism outline
01:59:44: I have a hundred and eighteen verses and I only have to re Re -examine the
01:59:49: X's once in a system. Anyway, so this is what I'm doing and it very good. There's another good verse
01:59:54: It is it's great and so is whoops
02:00:02: John 6 38 and 39 But I know that one really well, let's see now my soul has become troubled and what shall
02:00:12: I say father saved me from this hour But the purpose to come so the father is speaking
02:00:19: Okay, maybe someone this could come in and explain How is it that Jesus is speaking to the father if Jesus is the father and the voice came out of heaven
02:00:29: This is like the baptism the three So explain some more. Give me some more how they
02:00:36: React to it. I haven't really Studied enough in their reactions and how they how they answer and respond for it, but Needless to say that they'll just go into the false the false
02:00:56: Hypothesis presumption that God is simply the father and therefore right they just assume again that will
02:01:04: Jesus is just Giving an audience to himself and so then I've actually but then
02:01:10: I've responded in kind saying, okay, so that's great So essentially you're saying that you you took a tape recorder and told and gave and gave yourself a message
02:01:18: To giving yourself an order for the future and you forgot you gave yourself that message on and on that tape recorder
02:01:25: Played it back years later And you don't remember making it and you gave your in that and you play it back
02:01:33: Having amnesia of that particular event. Yeah, it tells you it tells you to do something, right?
02:01:39: It makes no sense And yeah, you were in that and then to go further and say you respond to that tape deck and it responds right back
02:01:51: Yeah, oh yeah This is how
02:01:57: I do my work. So anyway, let me show you guys what I do, but I think that's good There's a lot of good stuff right there
02:02:04: Let's See, I'll bring up my Catholicism one show you what I do. This is just nothing waste wasting time here
02:02:10: This is my outlines on Catholicism. This is how I do stuff so not a big deal, but it's what
02:02:20: I do and it's a 179 pages long. I do all kinds of research.
02:02:34: So this is the one this one I'm doing with there you go Well, anybody have any comments or questions anything want to add in oneness in Indonesia is a little quite different They say their statement of faith that they believe in the
02:02:46: Trinity of Father Son. Holy Ghost. Well, you have to understand how they're defining Trinity Simultaneous and distinct persons or not.
02:02:53: That's the question you got to ask. Oh Anybody else
02:03:03: Sure, go ahead Facebook group I'm in recently
02:03:10: Scripture John 17 verse 11 recently came over John where Jesus is asking, you know, the father that They be made one in him as Jesus is made in the
02:03:21: Father And so they try to argue against me and they didn't they didn't they they come
02:03:27: It's like they have a hard time understanding logic as you keep on pointing it and this is a clear indication
02:03:33: They don't not all run this because I'm not trying to insult anybody. I If I find you into I find when this points of view very interesting kind of like a
02:03:44: Psychologist would you know your intellectuals? Well, you're an intellectual of a different breed. I want to have it
02:03:50: I want to have talk between camps So the way they're really they're reading it is see
02:03:55: John chapter John chapter 17 verse 11 is Jesus saying he is the father Because he's one with the father
02:04:02: But they missed it last that the next part where it says they to be one with me as I am with you
02:04:10: So logic would dictate so a being Jesus is saying that I am one with B But they're saying a
02:04:19: Jesus is not one with the father. He is B. He is no longer a he is
02:04:24: Just B and both and you got two B's being one Well, you have a you have a logic problem where if Jesus is saying they should be one with me
02:04:35: Being they being those who believe and my disciples be one with me as I am one with the father then a
02:04:45: Being no longer a but a being B C now comes into question
02:04:50: C being the believer is now also B Because logic because logic dictates if C becomes a but a is actually
02:04:59: B Then all is B. It doesn't make any sense Right a lot of proper inference and that needs to be written out step by step or related objects.
02:05:08: But yeah It's be easy to lose people But yeah, yeah, there's a lot of good stuff out there.
02:05:15: I like this one I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me
02:05:24: Who's the I? Jesus Says I came down from heaven
02:05:30: To do the will of him who sent me that means he was in heaven and had to be sent from heaven by someone
02:05:39: How does that one just deal with that? Then it gets even more confusing when
02:05:45: Jesus says that It is for your benefit that I go away for if I go not away, then
02:05:50: I cannot send the comforter So both father and Jesus send the comforter
02:05:56: But I put they believe that they believe that the father sent Jesus and the father sends the
02:06:02: Holy Spirit So, how is it that Jesus is sending the Holy Spirit, but Jesus needs the father to send the
02:06:08: Holy Spirit If he is the father, right? I'm sorry.
02:06:13: Go ahead. Oh, yeah, there's all kind of stuff. Yeah Yeah, I'll be working on my outlines and trying to decide what to do with them
02:06:20: I want to sell them Could I put so much work into them or I make a little bit extra because I don't get a raise
02:06:25: I haven't had a raise in six years Or do I just put them out on karma say here you go, you know, you're probably end up doing
02:06:33: So John Q said Calvin is Oh logic is like kryptonite to a Calvinist. Oh man
02:06:40: Sorry, but I can't help it. Come on in Let's talk. We've waited two hours on one this but I'm gonna take an opportunity here to use a restaurant.
02:06:48: I'll be right back. Okay All you gotta do John Q is is type that into your browser and come on in I'll let you in in a second go back in the bathroom.
02:06:57: Hold on yeah, well just as we were saying earlier that the oneness make the
02:07:39: Presupposition that God Almighty is only the father by exclusivity Thus when when when you refer to say first Timothy 2 verse 16
02:07:50: It You know the argument that you like to say they like to bring up is John 1 chapter 1
02:07:56: Sorry, what John 1 chapter 1? You know in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the
02:08:03: Word was God Well, they believe that God there is the father only and therefore if the one the word logos
02:08:12: Was was God and therefore the logos is good father Meanwhile, it doesn't say anywhere in the scriptures
02:08:20: That Yahweh is only Called the father and is only known as the father
02:08:27: Sure, there is a scripture in Isaiah that says he is Our father, but it doesn't say he is
02:08:34: God the father in the in the book of Isaiah So when dealing with a oneness, it's very helpful to understand that they're seeing it
02:08:43: Through the eyes of their terminology their their fixed Dictionary as it would as it were to read say
02:08:52: When they when they read the word God, it's only the father. They don't see it as two or three
02:09:02: Therefore anytime you say well Jesus is God they'll agree with you They will agree with you that Jesus is
02:09:08: God But you but it's very important to be clear on what you mean by Jesus is
02:09:15: God Almighty Because when you speak to a oneness and they agree with you God, Jesus is God Almighty They're thinking
02:09:21: Jesus is the father almighty Yeah So it's
02:09:31: John Q gonna come in or just gonna make a comment and I'm back it up Now, where are the oneness people?
02:09:37: I thought these people want to see the one to come in and talk and and stuff They said they were interested Maybe they prefer just to insulting and inaccurate from a distance.
02:09:50: I Don't know Well, anybody have any comments or questions then says
02:10:04: Matt to himself Okay, oh
02:10:14: Hey, that was a good Let's see Brandon Gabby somebody
02:10:23: Okay Say something. Hi. Hi Matt This is
02:10:32: Brandon from Facebook Okay, are you oneness or what?
02:10:39: Yeah, yeah, I'm oneness. In fact, I was me who posted or other requested you to Engage in a discussion as you also
02:10:48: Okay Can you
02:10:54: Just I have trouble with people with light behind people I get headaches. Are you able to close those behind you?
02:11:01: I can certainly do that Okay Lot of people don't know
02:11:09: I have autism I'm hypersensitive to light and touch and so when
02:11:14: I see Thank you very much No, it's okay
02:11:24: I hate guitars so you have to get no, that's a joke I Apologize for entering late.
02:11:37: I think you mentioned 9 p .m But I I thought I thought this wasn't happening.
02:11:43: So which is why I probably woke up late maybe but I apologize It's all right. Oh, excuse me.
02:11:50: Oh It's just the two of us or do we have somebody else who would like to know go ahead you're in you're one this guy and Finally for two hours and one this person comes in and we can talk.
02:12:02: Yeah. Yeah, I mean I Wish there were a few of those. There were a few other me too
02:12:10: Okay, so so you've been you've been you've been you've been online now for the last two hours and no one else has come in I Don't remember another one is coming in.
02:12:20: Did it another one's come in? I don't remember if it was it might have been brief, but I don't remember
02:12:25: But so so so everybody else has left There are 42 people watching in two different venues
02:12:34: Facebook and YouTube we've had up to I think 50 or 60 here and it's released on the
02:12:41: Trinitarian oneness debate forum and No one's that I remember has showed up Except you
02:12:50: Okay. Okay Okay so I mean,
02:12:55: I I'm a one less person and I'm sorry to hear that Yeah, and I used to be a
02:13:02: Trinitarian Believer for many years and then I okay
02:13:07: I transitioned in the year 2014 Okay, you want to ask me something or you want to talk about something or want me to destroy your oneness or Yeah, I mean you can you can you're sure to pursue that Sure, I'd like to Okay, how about this really fast?
02:13:26: All I'll do is I'll share my screen That's just so that you can see what I'm typing and writing and things like that I'm not trying to trap you unless I tell you
02:13:35: I'm gonna trap you then I'll tell you. All right Okay, so These are my notes
02:13:44: I'm developing I developed lots of outlines, okay So let's do this.
02:13:50: I think instead of that I'm gonna do this Yeah, I'll do it. Yeah, I'll do it this way. Okay, sorry and So what is what is would you say a person is?
02:14:03: Is Are you asking in general terms or are you asking in Trinitarian terms?
02:14:09: So well, no in the context of let's just say the context of God is God a person Yes, I do believe
02:14:15: God is a person However, I would also like to maintain that he is not a he's not a tangible person like you and I are
02:14:23: But I do believe he's an individual if I may be more clear on that he's got he's got the ability to sort of have his own will to think to have emotions to relate and In terms of his identity, he's absolutely one
02:14:40: Just he's what he's absolutely one. He's solitary in nature He's absolutely one he he's an he's a single absolute individual
02:14:50: Okay. Yeah. Okay. You just yeah, so you say you say he's a single
02:14:57: Absolute individual. Yes. Okay. Well, that's the debate but as far as um,
02:15:04: As far as Definitions go these are just notes. Let's do this here. I'll clean this up later so Attributes of personhood he has a will can think would you say would you include also can speak?
02:15:18: say and say stuff like you Yours it's hard to type in really fast whoops
02:15:33: So would you agree that you know, these are some of the attributes of God of personhood
02:15:38: You know could have a will think speak Say you yours me mine
02:15:44: Have emotions relate one to another right though. You mean Yes, of course
02:15:51: God God is if it's personal he he would have He would have to use words like I myself
02:15:58: Good in all of that. Yeah, so it is God personal God is personal.
02:16:04: He's absolutely personal. So then here's a question if someone exhibits
02:16:12: The attributes I'm gonna do it this way. Oh, I don't have my thing done.
02:16:19: Okay, never mind a person hood Then is that someone a person?
02:16:28: Yes. Yes If if a person if if someone now when you say someone you you're gonna have to be obviously
02:16:36: We are talking in terms of who God is. So when you say whoever that someone is gonna be the same
02:16:42: God Yes, he's gonna be the same one lot of hero is right a lot of God is one
02:16:48: Lord, yes alright, so I Say, what's your first name? I'm Brandon.
02:16:55: My middle name is Gabby. Yeah, you can call it Brandon. Okay, Brandon So Brandon, I'm saying
02:17:01: I'm talking to you. You're a person. I'm a person. Yes. Yes, okay Okay, so is
02:17:08: Jesus a person Jesus is the yes. He is. He is a person.
02:17:13: He is the he's the solitary singular person of who God is And he is the embodiment of the incarnation of the father.
02:17:22: He is Yes, he's a person Yes, he is a person.
02:17:29: Okay. All right, and Does does Jesus have two natures or one nature?
02:17:35: Of course, he has two natures. See I'm goodness. Yeah, I'll just proceed I'm oneness so you you do know what one is believe it.
02:17:43: I'm just verifying. Yeah, so Alright is
02:17:50: Jesus a person right now He's yes, he is he is the glorified body he's in the he is he is the one
02:17:59: God who is in his glorified state Does he have two natures right now
02:18:06: Well, he is in his glorified state so yes Second one
02:18:11: Corinthians 15 24 until he has subdued all his enemies under his footstool He will he will yet continue in his military role.
02:18:20: He will still be a man and the spirit at the same time Okay. Okay good.
02:18:26: So let me show you something here. Let's see if I can get this going up here. Come on. Where are you? No, that's not it.
02:18:35: Let's see. So can you read that?
02:18:43: Okay, is that too small? I I I can Accessory. Yeah. Yeah, I can make a little bit bigger.
02:18:50: I think by doing this. That's right I mean if I can't see it, I'll let you know. There we go. Well kind of yeah, that works.
02:18:56: Yeah. All right so, um We know the Bible says there's only one
02:19:02: God. Yes, right? Yeah, you have no problem with that, right? Here's a verses for that just one
02:19:07: God. Okay. Now the father's called God the son's called God the Holy Spirit's called God Are you agree?
02:19:15: Yes, the father son and Holy Spirit is the same one God yes, no, no, no, we're not saying the same one guy
02:19:20: We're just saying they're called God so far. Yes. Yes. Let me let me let me respond to that if I'm allowed to yes, so Just because the
02:19:31: Bible calls the Holy Spirit God that isn't a that isn't a different God from the one true
02:19:36: God Just because the Sun is revealed as God that doesn't mean the Sun is distinct and in his identity from the father
02:19:44: The only way the only way we would constantly rather Maintain that there are three distinct persons is if we see them as three distinct of course
02:19:54: No Trinitarian will blatantly admit that but every Trinitarian in his
02:20:00: Mental image does believe in three gods, although he may verbally confess he believes in one
02:20:06: God So I would like to maintain that from the start I don't know if you do then we don't have a discussion because that's not the
02:20:12: Trinity if you're gonna argue three guys Yes, I do believe that a
02:20:18: Trinitarian Believes or rather a Trinitarian maintains from their end that they do believe in one
02:20:25: God But but but if I can behind your back Admit then
02:20:32: I will say that yes a Trinitarian is trinitistic Although we don't have a discussion.
02:20:37: We don't have a discussion. I'm not I'm not okay I will I will excuse that for now I will excuse that for now and we will proceed into the other things that we want to discuss
02:20:48: But you've already shot yourself in the foot. You see here's the thing Let me explain
02:20:54: We argue what we actually believe now what you think we believe and you misrepresent what we believe
02:21:00: We don't believe Trinitarianism of three gods We never have taught that the Christian Church has never said it for you to say that is not the
02:21:09: Trinitarian position You're not arguing because of Trinity Okay, so Our position is our position is the oneness that God is absolutely one person
02:21:22: However, you wouldn't make you wouldn't believe that God is one person You are in contradiction to that and I certainly acknowledge and revere your beliefs
02:21:31: But that is still your position and that is still what we are arguing about. So we can so I can have my
02:21:38: Rather I can have my opinions on what you okay. Let's say for the sake of discussion
02:21:46: I will maintain that Trinitarians in view of this discussion.
02:21:51: Let me explain something So I'm gonna explain your view oneness the
02:21:57: Trinity is not true, but God exists as one eternal solitary person
02:22:02: Yes, okay And that he's expressed himself as one person what we understand as a father the son the
02:22:09: Holy Spirit not three persons But one person, right? Yes now what if I were to say to you but really what you're thinking of is
02:22:16: God is one -third of God That's what your view really is. What would you say? I I'm absolutely fine if you say that but I would like for you to justify what you say
02:22:25: Wait a second No, you don't understand I'm saying If I said you believe he's one -third
02:22:33: God am I representing you accurately? You are not representing me accurately.
02:22:38: I'm still fine with that. I'm still fine if you I'm not I'm not I'm not fine with being misrepresented
02:22:44: Okay, so what what okay, I will clear this out If I have to reiterate the
02:22:50: Trinitarian position I do believe that a Trinitarian believes they believe in one God and they believe that the one
02:22:56: God is for the You know classified or rather if I may use the word in the three person, am
02:23:03: I right? I Do believe that we just leave three distinct simultaneous persons and I'll show it to you from the scriptures and show you
02:23:10: And I'll have you it I'll use you to prove your oneness is false That is absolutely fine
02:23:17: Let's do it. Then you ready? You should you should you should do that and I'm ready and I would invite you to do that Yeah, please.
02:23:23: Okay. Yeah, the Father Son Holy Spirit are each called God, right? They each have a will is it not true that they each have a will?
02:23:35: Anyway, no, no, no, no, no don't impose your view Does the scripture say that Jesus says not my will but your will be done when he's talking to the father
02:23:47: Yeah, let let me let me respond to that because what's happening is you are you are right now
02:23:54: It seems like you're almost Ignoring rather I would say the the humanity aspect of Jesus.
02:24:00: You're you're you're denying his humanity in his humanity Yes, I would agree that he He revered or other
02:24:08: Pointed us to the father's will so yes in his humanity is his human will is not his divine, but It's as simple as that Okay, I'm way ahead of you
02:24:20: I've been doing this probably longer than you've been alive. I've talked to a lot of oneness people doesn't mean
02:24:26: I'm right But I'm just sure you are sure you're free to ask me more questions if I I'm not able to answer you
02:24:32: Okay, but I just want you to say and say, you know, I'm not trying to brag or anything I'm just trying to say look I've done this a lot
02:24:38: I know where I'm going and I'm asking very specific questions And we just tell you you're not a you like many oneness don't answer the questions
02:24:48: Yeah, so you can see so it's part of the question watch this. You watch this.
02:24:53: Okay. Yes now This is this is the new
02:25:03: American Standard Bible father If you are willing remove this cup from me, not my will but yours be done.
02:25:10: How many wills are here? Well, if you're talking about God and God in the incarnation, you have two worlds over here
02:25:19: Let me respond Are you going to interject all the time
02:25:26: All you have to do is give a simple answer how many worlds are there yeah
02:25:31: But is there like a time time limit or am I bound to a time and maybe if I breach that go ahead
02:25:37: All right. Okay. Okay. So if you're if you're Since you're asking how many wills well, we say
02:25:44: God's will be done So that is obviously one will of God when you ask me the question How many wills do
02:25:50: I see over here there is obviously when God came in the flesh And he represented us he represented us in totality
02:25:57: So when he said when he denied his will he was he was teaching us what it means to deny the human will in stark contrast to God's will and What is surprising and interesting over here is we never hear of the
02:26:11: Holy Spirit's will And if you can address if you can take me there, it would be great. But I'm sure you cannot and That's about it.
02:26:20: So there's just one will of God and God was in the incarnation. He represented us He taught us what it means to deny our human will and point our will to the father and to sort of seek the father's will
02:26:32: Which is exactly what he did why he was in the flesh Okay Now I'm gonna ask a direct question.
02:26:38: Okay. Yes, how many wills are here? Well, I see two wills over there.
02:26:48: One is a divine will and one is a human will Okay, so you say there's two wills, right?
02:26:54: Yes. Yes Does a will Does a person necessitate having a will
02:27:03: Yes, a person a person has a will but here you're talking about God in the incarnation you're talking about God Revealing himself in in now in different ways as he builds in order to bring us redemption
02:27:16: So if you're if you are referring to a divine will there is no divine will apart from the father's will over here
02:27:24: But if you choose to ignore the basics of Understanding that God has one divine will he is a personal being
02:27:33: Then obviously you're going to fall into the category of trying to see through divine wills over here Sorry, if that question answer was wrong
02:27:43: Okay I'm not sure what you said there. How many wills does a text speak up here?
02:27:49: I Already told you I maintain it to you. There are two wills. One is the divine will and one is the human will of the
02:27:54: Messiah Okay, so we'll get to that. Does a person necessitate having a will a
02:28:01: Person would have to have a will yes. Okay. So then the answer is yes. All right, so If Jesus has a will and he's speaking to someone else who has a will two wills.
02:28:14: That's two persons. Is it not correct? It's well if you're if you're talking about God and and the same
02:28:21: God in the incarnation I wouldn't I Don't think it would be right for anyone to say here
02:28:27: There are two distinct persons The only reason the only reason you can come up with two different divine persons is if you constantly
02:28:36: Look at the humanity of Jesus and say hey, you've got another person in the Godhead Godhead and if I if I can
02:28:44: Proceed which I'm which I'm guessing you are allowing me to proceed What we have here is something very interesting you have a member in the
02:28:53: Godhead who cannot express his will but has to surrender his will to another person in the
02:28:58: Godhead and as Christians all of us have believed that we always seek for God's will but obviously according according to your position you have
02:29:10: The person who seems to be our all -in -all who it's Christ Jesus You're not exercise his own will but has to have somebody else exercise his will in eternity, so The penitentian position in a nutshell is simply a person in the
02:29:27: Godhead who seems to be clearly God or Fully God cannot exercise his own will and you have like a sort of conflict of wills within the
02:29:36: Godhead And that is exactly the position that you are in presenting You don't understand yet.
02:29:41: I haven't even gotten that far. This is what happens a lot of times. I talk to people I ask a simple question
02:29:46: They go on for a long time and they accuse me of things I haven't even said or don't even affirm because they don't understand the position well enough yet So I'm just being very simplistic here very logical and asking you
02:29:59: I told you I'm going to use your words against you and show That your words are going to teach that you don't you you're incoherent and your doctrine is false
02:30:07: Mm -hmm. I would like for you also to address what I said because it almost seems like you've you've been you've completely overlooked or Not what
02:30:18: I said. No, you've gotten ahead of yourself if you know I've not really gone ahead of myself because if you if you if you truly look at it from the
02:30:27: Bible's point of view There's only one will of God So if if you want to look at the Messiah's will and and take that and and plop it into the
02:30:35: Godhead saying yes This is another person then obviously you're going to have two conflicting wills and that's precisely the position you are representing
02:30:42: And unfortunately, you cannot beat that or rather you cannot justify that. I would like for you to justify that Well, let me ask you a question.
02:30:50: Do you think I've never thought of that? Just curious Well, if you did think about it, then maybe you would have realized that there is one will and when
02:30:58: God came in the flesh He represented us. So here you go. Yeah. So here you go. You're saying that if I had known about it
02:31:06: This is what I would have done that assumes a certain level of knowledge that you have But you don't have the level of knowledge that I have about this.
02:31:13: So your answer is incorrect I want to get back to this because this is where the issue lies right now
02:31:19: Now you said in here not my will but your will be done
02:31:25: Yes, how many wills are mentioned here in the text? You said two wills I asked you does a person necessitate having a will you said yes
02:31:33: If therefore there are two wills then that necessitates two persons, right?
02:31:40: Yes, I wouldn't say two distinct persons, but I would say two simultaneous manifestations,
02:31:46: I Don't know if I can follow a proceed in this answer because you're expecting instant questions and answers.
02:31:53: Well, yes I I see two persons, but I don't see two distinct another
02:31:59: I see two manifestations of the same individual of who God is what what's happening right now is
02:32:08: In in whatever way you're expecting me to answer it almost seems like your position is
02:32:14: Then you have a member in the Godhead who's displaying his human side and he and there are two conflicting bills in the
02:32:22: Godhead and That's that's your position right now All I'm doing right now is just going with this what this says
02:32:30: You don't do you are you familiar with the hypothetic Union the community are you if you're late with a communicator with your mottom
02:32:37: I Beg your pardon. Are you familiar with a communicator ideal mottom? I Came I did come across that but I Okay, are you familiar with the the issue of the kenosis
02:32:56: Yes, again, I have All right now to deal with the issues that you want to get ahead to these are the doctors we have to get into to teach to Understand so you see where the questions come plus a doctor of the incarnation be made under the law and what that requires
02:33:12: There's a lot more to this. I'm doing is showing you one thing at a time One thing at a time.
02:33:18: I'm going with your words This is a text not my will but your will be done you said two wills
02:33:24: I agree. You said a person necessitates having a will you said a person necessitates having a will you said yes, then if there's two wills and Personhood this hesitates having a will then two wills means two persons
02:33:44: Right, and you said yes You said yes here and now then you said there are two simultaneous
02:33:52: Manifestations, then you're saying that there's simultaneous manifestations of two persons
02:33:59: That refutes your oneness Because you already said you already said that oneness teaches that Jesus is divine as a single person and he's speaking to the father
02:34:09: Who's another person because there's two separate wills you just refuted your own oneness. I Was gonna help you do that you just that's that's that's that's certainly you can certainly pat your back for that, but What what what
02:34:26: I always fail to understand and what I always fail to see rather is that Trinitarians don't like to look at The the incarnation and God took on flesh.
02:34:38: He wasn't like Unlike us I Cannot go into a
02:34:44: I mean I cannot go into a body as I am or other I cannot manifest myself in simultaneous ways
02:34:50: I'm sure you cannot do that. But when God but obviously all things are possible with God and like us
02:34:56: God can let me respond God can manifest can manifest himself in simultaneous ways and just because he manifested himself in In the body of Christ Jesus, that doesn't mean that somebody else from him
02:35:09: If if I may if I may draw a parallel over here You you are in the
02:35:15: US and I'm in India You have someone in Russia at the same time and you have someone say in South Africa and Australia Now God can reveal or let's say
02:35:23: Jesus and reveal himself with the five of us through different modes of communication with five different messages and And he can do that all at the same time
02:35:35: If that if that is true, which is true Then you're gonna have to say you have you won't have to conclude that there are five different Jesus's in the
02:35:43: Trinity and I'm gonna and I'll be like no there are no five Jesus's It's the same Jesus who can do simultaneous things in different ways now coming here coming to your question coming
02:35:54: I'm coming to responding to your question. I Do agree that that a person is it a person?
02:36:02: Necessitates a will but that but just because God came in the in the incarnation doesn't mean that Miraculously a different person from the father.
02:36:10: It simply means that God has chosen to walk among us it's a unique situation unlike any any other situation in history and Yes, there are two simultaneous
02:36:23: It's the same person of God, but in two simultaneous realms if I can put it Oh That's my response to that Now Because you've given yourself over to a false doctrine of oneness
02:36:42: Your ability to think critically and rationally has now been undermined The proof of this is right here in your own words
02:36:53: You stated Jesus is a person right now. I agree with you that he's a person right now
02:36:58: You also affirmed he has two natures the divine and the human hypostatic
02:37:03: Union That's good you're recognizing what personhood is because we went through what the attributes of personhood are and You agreed with this and I agree fine
02:37:14: So far so good now I Brought up a verse not my will but your will be done and I asked you a very simple question
02:37:23: You gave me a long answer. I'd ask you the question again. Give me another long answer I'd ask you this specific question a third time how many wills are here.
02:37:30: You finally just said what it says two wills. I Said does a person
02:37:36: Necessitate having a will you said yes. These are just what you've said. I'm typing your stuff out
02:37:42: You can see it if I'm wrong you tell me Then I asked you does it that not necessitate all this
02:37:49: Does it not necessitate two persons since you said each person has a will when you say a person is having a will
02:37:58: If a person necessitates having a will and there's two wills then by definition, there's two persons
02:38:05: Yes, let me let me let me respond to that if that is your Trinity over there where Jesus said it's not my
02:38:15: He's obviously talking to God he's talking to the father So if that is your Trinity there, then your second person is just a human being with a human will
02:38:24: But if you if you look at it in light of the incarnation It is it is it is plain as day that while he was in the incarnation
02:38:32: He did he denied his human will and that is what we all have to do Unfortunately as a genitalian you see that as a as a distinct member
02:38:41: Failing to recognize that your second co -equal member who's truly God cannot really have his own will
02:38:48: But has to sort of you know, surrender his will to somebody else and that is exactly the position you represent unfortunately, you choose to not address that address that and If if I if you have a session where I can throw questions at you, that would be great.
02:39:05: Sure Let's get your statements out here and then I'll show you. Okay, I'm gonna tell you we'll come back to this
02:39:11: You have contradicted yourself and you have refuted your own oneness theology But I'm gonna go on and deal with this.
02:39:18: You said Jesus talking to the father Then you said I'm gonna have to say that there's the second person is just a human, right?
02:39:27: That is that is a position you believe in because you know, it's not Yes, but but Jesus was talking to God he was talking to the one through God So if that is your position, then you have a second member who's outside of the
02:39:39: Godhead That's that's a position that you represent. No, you don't understand my position
02:39:46: Okay, there's nothing more I could see in other than what you have You haven't even asked me the right questions
02:39:54: See, I've already shown you this. I've already shown you this is Jesus a person right now. Yes, I agree with that Does he have two natures?
02:40:02: Yes, I agree with that. Did you not hear me say that I agree with this? Yes So you said
02:40:13: You admit that I said Jesus has two natures He's both divine and human and then yet you say my position means
02:40:20: I believe he's just a human yes, because Because as as to Natalian's you seem to have your foundation skewed
02:40:29: Because when you address the doctrine of God God's will is always perfect God's will is divine
02:40:38: God's will is divine God's will is perfect Now you cannot have a member in the Godhead who says who cannot who has got a conflicting will
02:40:46: Because if he did if he was in the Godhead or rather if he was a member of the Godhead Then he would truly have a conflicting will and then that would obviously mean that he is not
02:40:56: God I hope the other Trinitarians listening to this can relate So when you when you say that a member in the
02:41:04: Godhead if that is truly a second co -equal member in the Godhead He cannot seems to have a conflicting will with the father
02:41:12: Then he is truly not God and that's the position that you represent But but hear me out, but if you do believe that while in the flesh
02:41:20: God Represented humanity He represented what it means to surrender our will to God and Let God's will be done.
02:41:30: If you understand that Jesus took our place. He is the forerunner of our faith Unfortunately, it seems like there is a there is competition in the
02:41:38: Godhead if you have to look at it from a Trinitarian point of view But if you look at it from a from a oneness point of view that God is absolutely solitary when he came to flesh
02:41:48: He represented us. He surrendered his human will Because he because he came in the flesh now when
02:41:55: God came in the flesh It doesn't mean that his humanity all of a sudden was camouflaged or you know had disappeared.
02:42:01: He did have humanity He did he did cry literally. He did he probably used the washroom.
02:42:07: He did all of those things He literally lived a human life. So when he denied his will he obviously denied his his weaknesses his human will
02:42:17: Unfortunately the position that sadly so -called Trinitarianism Adheres to is you have a person in the
02:42:26: Godhead who truly cannot do his will and that is something you cannot address And I hope you are able to address that He was under the law
02:42:35: Galatians 4 4 4 made little while the Lord and the angels Hebrews 2 9 as a human being he had two
02:42:41: Natures that means he had two wills within his one person This is necessitated by the fact that if he's going to be divine and the word became flush
02:42:50: So then it's called diathletism
02:42:57: Thaleo is the Greek word will Monothelitism says that the two natures of Christ are combined into a new third thing monophysitism, which does necessitates monothelitism
02:43:08: That's heresy. No, he has two natures and two wills diathletism is the correct view But they're manifested as one will due to the communicate you idiom atom
02:43:18: So you don't understand these things yet. I'm not degrading you I'm just like you don't understand these things yet Which is why you're saying what you're saying saying that I won't be able to answer the question.
02:43:27: Absolutely. Yes, I can I've already had this discussion many times and I'm trying to tell you yes, I understand but you're getting ahead of yourself
02:43:34: You've said some things here when I respond to it you said that I'd be saying that Jesus is not it's just human
02:43:41: But I've already told you That Jesus has two natures divine and human called the hypostatic
02:43:48: Union I've also told you that the communicate you idiom atom which means the communication of the properties means that the nature of the
02:43:55: Attributes of the divine nature and the average attributes of the human nature ascribed to the single person Jesus.
02:44:00: I'm saying there again He has two natures. I can go to Colossians 2 9 Philippians 2 5 through 8
02:44:06: John 1 1 and verse 14 I can talk about this. I can go to Hebrews 1 6 through 8. I can talk about how this is the case
02:44:12: I understand this and I teach it quite a bit. So you are saying it's my position This is the second time you've misrepresented my position say that I believe the
02:44:20: Trinitarian ultimately in three gods, which I don't you say I believe I don't believe it But I really do you remind me
02:44:25: Tracy Turbleville who said Matt I know more about you what you believe than you do And no, you don't and I can ask him questions.
02:44:32: I can ask you questions about diet elitism monothelic ism Monophysitism the storing is a new tikian ism
02:44:39: I can ask you how they relate to each other along with a hypostatic Union and how it relates to the communicate you idiom atom
02:44:44: You want to know why I know these? Because for 41 years I have been debating
02:44:50: Mormons Jehovah's Witnesses Christian scientists Unitarians Muslims all kinds of people who attacked the deity of Christ and have asked me a thousand different questions about Jesus His wills his nature.
02:45:01: How can he have the same will of God? He said not my will be yours, but he's divine How can he do that got an answer for you?
02:45:07: How can he do that? I gotta ask you say but you can't answer it. Yes, I can but we're way down the road
02:45:12: I'm trying to show you as I said, I would do that your own words will hang you
02:45:19: You have already said You've already said that a will necessitates a person
02:45:26: Now if Jesus is a person. He says not my will but your will by your words that necessitates two persons
02:45:35: Do you deny that that necessitates two persons if you said? that Having a will is what is a necessary aspect of being person?
02:45:47: You know, what are you gonna retract it now? No, I'm not. I'm certainly going to respond to that. I'm certainly going to respond to that God obviously when
02:45:55: God when God was Incarnated in flesh or when he was manifested in the flesh you have a unique situation
02:46:01: You have us you have a situation unlike unlike before you have you have God in the in now
02:46:08: If if if this is a second divine person speaking to the father Then you have a second divine person who's not to be able to exhibit or administer his own will
02:46:17: But if you understand that God came in the flesh as a human being He certainly he certainly had to have surrendered his will to the father but what's happening over here and what you are not addressing and I and I I Suppose I can ask you questions as well.
02:46:34: And if you can answer that that would be great How about this is what Jesus says?
02:46:43: Yes, you want me to do you want me to Respond to that. Well notice what he says now does
02:46:51: Jesus have a will In the flesh in the flesh.
02:46:56: He had a human will. Yes. Okay, we're gonna get to that. Yes, we're gonna get to that So he had a will okay.
02:47:03: Yes. He had a will. All right. So is Jesus one person? No, he is the one person of God.
02:47:09: He yes. Yes. Jesus is one person with two natures Sorry. Yes. He's got two natures.
02:47:16: Yes. Is there a will in the divine nature? He doesn't have a will in the divine nature he's built how is the divine nature
02:47:23: God if it doesn't have a will Yes, as as God he does have a divine will
02:47:30: I didn't ask that I said, how does he have how to be divine divine part if he that divine part doesn't have a will
02:47:37: How is it divine if there's no will? He has a divine will I I didn't know
02:47:42: Jesus has two natures. He has two natures. So he's a divine nature means necessitates will doesn't it?
02:47:51: Yes, then he has a divine will and Or we would say a human will and a divine will in the one person
02:47:59: Yes, and they're the human will right this is called dice elitism
02:48:07: Di means to fillet. Oh will so one person of Jesus has two natures and is
02:48:13: Necessary that within each nature is will But we perceive and the manifestation of that will is always one.
02:48:22: I will be with you Always I am thirsty the I Claims the attributes of both natures and the wills are expressed as a single
02:48:32: Will in the person of Christ have you ever heard of dice elitism before? See, I haven't heard of that elitism before but but I maintain that Jesus had food food two natures
02:48:44: He had two wills good is the divine one is the divine will which is the father's will okay because he is the father
02:48:51: Okay, so when Jesus said yes when Jesus said not my will but your will be done
02:48:57: Which nature was talking? It was the human nature obviously dog. Oh, so then when
02:49:03: Jesus says I will be with you Always I'll be with you to the end of the earth, right?
02:49:09: I am thirsty then there's two persons talking because each will has a person saying
02:49:14: I but it's not the same Person saying I'll be thirsty not the same person saying I'll be with you always is it
02:49:23: And when he says when when Jesus says I will be with you always he's obviously talking about he's talking as God He's talking as the
02:49:30: Holy Spirit is the human aspect involved When see when Jesus says
02:49:35: I'm thirsty He was still God. I wouldn't I wouldn't say he said I'm thirsty as God I'm sure you would agree with that the one person said
02:49:44: I'm thirsty Yes Two natures the the year on the erroneous erroneous position that you take is that you are looking at the
02:49:57: Manifestation of God to mean a distinct person in identity and that's and that's the mistake you
02:50:03: Rather purposefully do really are taking you are taking the manifestation of God a distinct person
02:50:10: Okay, and when you do that you obviously run into what we call the politestic view or the tritestic view of Let's see, let's see how you do handle that I'm gonna ask you the same questions on the real part and I hope you can address that sure
02:50:29: Go when when Jesus said not my will be done was that his human will or his divine will neither
02:50:35: It was this a wrong question It was not the divine will or the human will that makes answer because that would be the error of Nestorianism, which is a heresy as I said to you already the two wills don't die
02:50:49: Thelotism always speak and manifest as one the one will of the person because Jesus is a single person a
02:50:57: Single person can only have one will there is a mystery to this even from your from your perspective
02:51:02: How does Jesus have two natures the nature of the divine requires self -awareness omniscience omnipotence and the attributes of divinity because that's what divinity is
02:51:11: It has to exist in the person of Christ and he has to have human attribution as well which is one place at a time getting hurt thirsty and going to the bathroom and sleeping and and the
02:51:21: I Claimed both therefore the eye is a single person But what you do is you say no this will talk sometimes and this will talk sometimes
02:51:31: Never is that in the scripture? It's always I Me the one person you're the one with the problem.
02:51:38: I don't have a problem You have to understand you don't even believe the doctrine of the hypostatic
02:51:43: Union You don't believe it. You don't even understand what it is. Otherwise, you wouldn't be asking the question
02:51:49: This is why the one this people are heretics. They deny the hypostatic Union. You think you do
02:51:55: Believe it, but you really don't you think you understand the communicate you idiom atom, but you don't you think you understand when you get exposed?
02:52:04: To a diathletism and how it relates to the single person, but you don't these are issues that the
02:52:09: Christian Church has had to deal With for centuries. I learned it because the cults and the false teachers would would ask me questions
02:52:16: I didn't have answers to I went and looked and I found out these questions had already been asked and Answered and I studied and I found out even more
02:52:26: Your I appreciate your history over here, but my question stands my question stand
02:52:31: I'm not the one with multiple wills and the Godhead. I believe that there's this one It is you who thinks that there are
02:52:39: Different wills and different persons in the forehead and since you asked me the question my question stands
02:52:45: How many is when Jesus said not my will was that divine will or the human wills me?
02:52:50: Wrong Okay, you didn't you didn't hear you don't say
02:52:57: I believe there's multiple wills in the Godhead that's a different statement And are you familiar with what's called perichoresis?
02:53:04: So what is your belief? Are you familiar with are you familiar with perichoresis? No, I'm not
02:53:11: There's a lot you're not aware of and yet you're arguing from a level of knowledge. That is insufficient now
02:53:17: Let me maintain this I'm not expected to know all the yes, you are maybe all those other words you said you're
02:53:24: Trinitarian I'm not gonna dare you were sorry. You said you were a
02:53:30: Trinitarian. Yeah, but I was argue against it I wasn't I I wasn't a hardcore
02:53:35: Trinitarian fan, and I'm glad I never was. However, let me still ask you Okay, okay. Let me ask me the question.
02:53:41: Ask me the incorrect question again And of course you're going to give me an incorrect answer
02:53:48: Unfortunately, unfortunately when it comes to you responding to my questions Suddenly it means none suddenly it means
02:53:56: I mean I it almost seems like you are dictating what your answer should be like and that's absolutely fine to do so.
02:54:03: Let's move on Yes, how many How many wills are there in the
02:54:11: Godhead that can be exhibited? How many wills are in the Godhead is
02:54:16: Jesus is divine. How many wills are in the Godhead that can be exhibited? Exhibited yes for administered at the very least two
02:54:25: Not three. I said the very least two because you're the context you're talking about. Is there anything can it be three?
02:54:32: Can it be three? Yes, absolutely Okay So if it can be three
02:54:38: Then it looks like it's still going in the area of just two wills because here Jesus blatantly denied
02:54:44: He's doing he's doing I I know that it's his human will but unfortunately you look at it as his divine will
02:54:50: So you have a member in the God and I'm saying this again and I'm going to say it to the audience as well You have a member in the
02:54:56: Godhead Who's truly God who is he is fully God rather and cannot do his own will that is the position your friend
02:55:04: Mike takes over here Okay, you're asking the wrong question. I will proceed with the other question.
02:55:11: Okay, you're asking the wrong question But you're not drawing the right conclusions You don't understand the doctrine of the
02:55:16: Trinity and these particular issues as well as you think I have to frequently teach
02:55:21: Critics of the Trinity things about the Trinity. They have never even heard of If they are going away
02:55:29: If you're gonna argue against a Trinity you better study it if I'm talking to a
02:55:35: Muslim About Tawheed and about the idea of God deceiving I go to surah 354
02:55:41: He's the greatest of the greatest of deceivers and I I'm talking about this I go to surah 4 171 and talk about this
02:55:49: I better know what I'm talking about and when a Muslim says to me it happens he goes. No, that's not our position
02:55:55: I immediately say okay. What is your position? I get my notes out Hey, well, what is your position
02:56:02: I say I never intend to misrepresent you I can do it accidentally What is the right position show me the surahs or the hadiths show me where it is.
02:56:11: I'm open to learning. I still am and if they say They say you need to study this and this and this
02:56:18: I write it down and I go study it You don't
02:56:24: Hypostatic union communicatio idiomatum dithalatism perichoresis divine simplicity
02:56:34: These are these English terms because my English is not Pro level so your
02:56:41: English is you're very good. I'm asking you are those English terms the terms Yeah, like the word
02:56:47: Trinity is is is English hypostatic union is Latin Those other terms that you used are the
02:56:54: English terms Yeah, they're English terms. Yeah. Okay. Okay fine, because I don't know everyone under the
02:57:00: Sun in English. That's okay, but but anyways So so you said you maintain that When I asked you then
02:57:08: Jesus said not my will be done you still Choose not to answer that Is It's a wrong question, oh wow, so cool they're going ahead because you you decide what question is right and what is wrong
02:57:23: No, no, no. No big Demonstrates that's clearly your position right now. It demonstrates you don't understand the position
02:57:30: I say it's the wrong question because you don't understand we don't say it's either the human will or the divine will
02:57:37: Speaking we don't say that that's not the Trinitarian position with Christ. It's he
02:57:42: I've told you this before Hypostatic union one person with two natures each nature has to have a will that's called
02:57:51: Dithelitism, but it's perceived and expressed as a single will Never as two
02:57:57: I've said this is a third time. I'm telling you never as two different wills Always as one
02:58:03: I am with you always I am thirsty The will is always one in the person of Christ who's one person
02:58:10: Therefore for you to say when he was speaking here, which will was it? It's not the right question.
02:58:17: Let me explain it again If we don't ever say it was this will or that will speaking.
02:58:22: It's the wrong question. It demonstrates. You don't understand our position That's what
02:58:28: I'm telling you You don't understand it Understand your position it looks like we will have to abandon some
02:58:38: Really great questions from our end just to sort of conform to the fact that yes, we do not understand
02:58:44: Yeah, we raise our hands and surrender and there are things about the Trinity that we don't understand Unfortunately, it's the other way around most in Italians.
02:58:52: Most of the dinner advocates admit that the Trinity is and in fact a mystery and They are absolutely right.
02:58:59: It is because it is nowhere found in the Bible. Anyways, let's wait a minute. Hold on. Hold on Hold on you're begging the question.
02:59:05: You're assuming things that you haven't demonstrated to be true I've already quit quiz to you and showed you the problems of the personhood issue in the person of Christ I've shown you that you come back with another issue.
02:59:15: You ask me a question. I'm telling you It's the wrong question and I tell you why it's the wrong question And I'm also giving you these are the terms and the doctrines you need to study
02:59:25: No, see if I ask you a question if I ask you a simple question Okay Then okay, let me let me ask you another question, which is on the same will on the on the will aspect of God When Jesus said not my will be done with yours was
02:59:43: Jesus talking as God the Son Define God the Son You are the one who has to define
02:59:50: I know what a girl you just use the term What do you mean was he speaking as God the Son is
02:59:55: God the Son two natures or one nature? Okay, okay, if I may if I may get it correct
03:00:01: I'm not the one who imposes an external unbiblical term like God the Son of God The Son is a trinitarian term
03:00:08: It'll be you who have to explain what it means if you since you are asking me
03:00:15: Did you hear me bring up the term God the Son? It's not my position to explain you what I got the
03:00:20: Sun That's your trinitarian. So did you hear me bring up the term God the Son? Okay, so now it looks it seems that I have been introduced to a different I didn't know.
03:00:33: See here's a mistake you're making. I didn't say a firm. I don't say I deny I just asked you a question.
03:00:39: Did you hear me use the term? Do you believe in the term called the
03:00:45: Sun? I asked you did you hear me was that you haven't used okay? But it's a trinitarian.
03:00:50: I don't I don't have to know and what you don't know Is a trinitarian Then if you bring if you bring up the term you define it.
03:01:00: I Brought up hypostatic union communicato idiom atom. I brought up perichoresis
03:01:05: No, I've got a bad man. Let's just let's just be very honest. Do you believe that God the
03:01:10: Sun? I'm not honest I don't know. No. No, I hope you can be moving on You know,
03:01:16: I couldn't be honest. Is that what you're saying? I'm just asking you. Okay. I hope I can speak I'm asking you.
03:01:22: Do you believe that the term called the Sun is a trinitarian term or is it or is it not? Maybe I maybe
03:01:28: I'm probably Maybe I didn't It is a term that some trinitarians use
03:01:34: I do use that I did not We have never had a conversation before so I wouldn't know you personally
03:01:44: I'll never define it No, no, I'm asking do you believe your answer should be yes or no if the term
03:01:51: God the Sun means that the second person of the Trinity became flesh and has two distinct natures then yes,
03:01:57: I agree with that term When Jesus said not my will be done, but yours be done was that God the
03:02:04: Sun speaking? Yeah by that definition who has one manifested will right?
03:02:11: So so now because you have to justify a God the Sun suddenly there are two different worlds But then I asked you which was it the divine will or the human will you seem to be?
03:02:20: Trying to escape that that answer which is absolutely fine. I'm not trying to escape anything You're not focused.
03:02:27: Let's move. Let's let's move on. Oh, no. No. No, let's stay here. You brought it up. Let's focus
03:02:34: Focus how many did Jesus have a will? Yes, I guess he had a will he said and who is he praying to in the garden?
03:02:43: He was praying to the father. Is that two separate wills? Is it two separate wills? Yes, he had a he had a human will
03:02:50: I Was it the human wills praying to the divine will let me respond.
03:02:56: Yes. Yes. Well, so then how is it an incarnation? Always why can't it be an incarnate?
03:03:05: What what has that got to do with what we are talking about? You don't know what an incarnation is Okay, maybe you can educate me an incarnation is simply the embodiment of a spirit
03:03:15: It is it is a spirit spirit getting into a body now Humans can do that.
03:03:22: It wasn't demons can do that. That's not an incarnation. Try it again. What's an incarnation and an incarnation and Okay, the
03:03:31: Bible doesn't use the word incarnation Simply means an incarnation simply means the manifestation of a spirit
03:03:39: Manifestation of the Holy Spirit at the baptism of Jesus is not an incarnation when they came down it like a dove That's not a incarnation
03:03:46: No, I'm talking about a human personification About Jesus in the incarnation.
03:03:52: What does it mean? What does it mean God in the flesh? What else can it mean? But but Matt, wait a minute.
03:03:59: Look No, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, wait a minute. You're the one who brought this up.
03:04:06: I'm holding your feet to the fire Is an angel when he becomes a man and walks around is it an incarnation?
03:04:15: You can yes, of course, it would be an incarnation. Okay, so you don't understand what incarnation means
03:04:20: Okay, that is fine. Now. Let me let me further ask. No, hold on a sec. Hold on a sec Okay, so so I don't get to ask question.
03:04:27: Yes, you do, but you got to understand something You don't know what you're talking about.
03:04:32: I'm not trying to be mean but here are the words you need to study incarnation versus Manifestation.
03:04:39: Let me tell you what incarnation is It's when the Lord the second person the
03:04:45: Trinity enters the womb of Mary and is in union with the human nature and is incarnate meat flesh and Becomes flesh in the beginning was the
03:05:01: Word the Word was with God the Word was God the Word became flesh That's what incarnation is and he's permanently going to be in the state.
03:05:10: He will never stop being this way a Manifestation is when an angel appears as a man for a little while.
03:05:15: That's a manifestation that ceases an incarnation does not So you don't understand what these terms mean if you want to if you want to argue on this level
03:05:27: You have to get up to the level with the knowledge of what it is. You're arguing about you're not there
03:05:32: I'm just trying to help you. I've introduced the terms and define them.
03:05:37: The only guy I haven't defined is divine simplicity But this is I can do that very quickly and very easily but you need to study these things
03:05:45: Matt Matt Matt Just just just just be very honest with yourself And God says when God says when
03:05:51: God says when the Bible says when first in first image 16 God was manifest in the flesh and did not use the word incarnation now
03:05:58: I do understand what you mean by incarnation. I certainly do believe what incarnation means now
03:06:04: Unfortunately, you think that the word incarnation is exclusively You know describing a second person in the
03:06:11: Godhead which is absolutely fine But yes, I I would agree with you. There is a difference in manifestation and incarnation, but there isn't a major difference for example a manifestation simply means
03:06:25: Reveal something or or you know, maybe even a temporary manifestation or a manifestation rather can be temporary.
03:06:31: I totally agree I'm not disputing you with that. I'm not trying to sort of Beat you up with your
03:06:37: Vocabulary and all of that and your your intelligence and what meanings or words mean
03:06:43: I'm simply asking you questions Am I allowed to proceed with my questions or are we just gonna beat around the bush with the incarnation and manifestation?
03:06:52: Ask your questions. I've not stopped. Yes. Yes. So so you so so when I asked you wasn't
03:06:59: God the Sun Who said not my will be done you agree that was called the
03:07:04: Sun so so in conclusion then a God the Sun That Said something a
03:07:12: God the Sun. Is that what you said? Yeah, or God the Sun. Okay, because in English to say a
03:07:19: God the Sun is very significant. It means a second God So the key I don't believe you're saying that I think you just misspoke
03:07:26: Fine God the Sun so if so, so you see you so you agree that God the
03:07:31: Sun said not my will be done But your will be done in conclusion then in conclusion then
03:07:37: God the Sun couldn't do his will or couldn't administer his Moving forward.
03:07:43: Can I respond to that? Yeah, sure. Why do you think he was saying not my will but your will be done
03:07:49: You're gonna be saying it's the human flesh that's speaking of the divine, but that's an historian ism
03:07:55: Which is a heresy. We've already gone over this you just study it What he was doing was being he with the attributes of humanity are also part of the person
03:08:04: He did not want to go through being pierced in his hands and his feet and tortured and beaten
03:08:10: He didn't want to go through it who would as A human he had the attributes of humanity and the and were ascribed to the person and the person saying
03:08:21: I want to do this Because he's a human being but he also said not my will but your will be done
03:08:30: What what obviously most Canadians fail to realize is that when he says when when if he truly had a divine will apart from the father's will as Being another person in the garden and I wouldn't say second person
03:08:47: I would say another person in the Godhead if he truly had his divine will Then he wouldn't have prayed to the father knowing that he could administer or he could execute or go ahead with his own will
03:08:58: But as a as a human being he yes, he and that's my position as a human being
03:09:05: Yes, he had to have surrendered his human will to his divine will moving forward since Coming to any settlement over there
03:09:17: Does the Bible speak or other does Jesus address the Holy Spirit and Seek his will or or vice versa
03:09:27: Is there a conversation between does the Holy Spirit spirit does the Holy Spirit seek the will of the
03:09:32: I mean Don't you just seek the will of the Holy Spirit? Yes Yes Does the Jesus seek the will of the
03:09:37: Holy Spirit or is Jesus talking to the Holy Spirit in a way that you know? There is a form of communication
03:09:44: No, not that I'm aware of Okay Okay. So so in in in totality you what you believe there are
03:09:54: Three girls in the Godhead or each person has got their own. I'm sorry. Say it again You believe each person has got their own will divine divine you by logical necessity.
03:10:04: Yes Okay, so all the three members in the garden have their divine yes and the
03:10:11: Bible only talks about the father's birth Does it? Does the Sun have a will The Sun has a human birth does no.
03:10:20: No, I don't have a divine will he has two natures you wait a minute You said he has two natures and each one has to have a will but you admitted that that's called diathletism
03:10:30: You admitted diathletism so therefore The will of the divine and the human were attributed to the single person of Christ who always manifested it as one will
03:10:39: I've told you this is a fourth time now As far as as far as your position goes you you maintain that there are that it's just one will but when it when it has when it has to come to like rather justifying the persons of your
03:10:59: Godhead suddenly there is There are there are just three bills and and you know, you're you're obviously
03:11:08: Denying the humanity of Jesus. I'm not denying the humanity of Jesus How many times have
03:11:14: I got to tell you Brandon? He has a human nature and a divine nature he has two natures the divine and the human the hypostatic union and the attributes of both natures the divine nature and the human nature are ascribed to the single person the communicatio idiomato exactly and Diathletism that will of the divine nature the will of the human nature that manifests as a single will
03:11:42: I've given you three different ways in hypostatic union communicato idiomato diathletism that distinguish and show the human side and the divine side of the one person of Christ and yet you say you
03:11:57: Contradict what I tell you super super so so and so in conclusion that in conclusion
03:12:03: Since this is that it's just one will of God the Son So I've got the son as as for the worst and you quoted not my will be done
03:12:12: But you all will be done. I've got the son couldn't do his will so that's your position That that is your position, right?
03:12:19: Because you said you clearly said that that's one will of the divine person in the hypostatic union the divine and the human will
03:12:26: Which is you can see and come together as one will and so Jesus spoke
03:12:32: Jesus spoke so so when when he said not my will be done But yours you all will be done in conclusion.
03:12:38: Then you have a got the son who could not do his will Yes, he couldn't do it. So well, of course you did the will the father
03:12:46: No, no, but he couldn't do his own will he couldn't do his own will as God the Son that's your position, right?
03:12:52: No, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no. No, hold on. You have to be careful how you
03:12:59: You Have to be careful how you say couldn't Now this may sound like I'm just trying to get philosophically dense, but you can understand there's different ways that this can be understood
03:13:11: He could not in one sense, but he could in another sense He could not because as he says in John 5 30
03:13:18: He came to do the will of the father and he could only do what he sees the father do John 5 19 Let me show you now explain what
03:13:25: I mean Because He's Jesus says he can do nothing of himself
03:13:36: Right, you agree. That's what he says, right? Yes Now if he could do nothing of himself this works for you as well
03:13:43: Okay, how could Jesus the man say I could do nothing of myself? Unless it's something he sees the father doing is he seeing himself doing it?
03:13:54: What's he talking about? Yes, there's questions we can get into let me show you I Can do nothing of my own initiative
03:14:03: Now, let me ask you. This is a question according to your understanding which will is talking there
03:14:19: So I can do nothing about you that's the human will right? Yes.
03:14:24: Yes. Okay now get a question for you I have come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me
03:14:37: Who's the eye is a divine will or the human the divine nature of the human nature speaking of Jesus?
03:14:43: It's it's it's the human nature speaking. It's the logos made flesh. It's so So he said that so that's the human nature says
03:14:50: I've come down from heaven. How's the human nature in heaven? No, the human nature didn't come down from heaven, but he's speaking as though he's let me respond to that He said it was a human nature.
03:15:00: Let me respond to that. The human nature came from me You and I can both agree with that When he says
03:15:06: I came down from heaven. He is talking about it himself as the forward input the lamb the forward input
03:15:14: John 1 1 the lamb You know who was for being who was the
03:15:20: Bible says the lambs were slain from the foundation of the world Now the lamb wasn't literally there in the human body besides the father
03:15:28: But yes, but yet these things were forwarding when Jesus said I came down from heaven not to do my own will
03:15:34: He still spoke as the forward in man. He spoke as the forward in The knowledge of God that God would come in flesh.
03:15:42: So when so if this is your position obviously when you have a person who says
03:15:49: I've come down from heaven and yet cannot do his Will and this is the second time that you you know,
03:15:54: I get to I've already answered it. You keep ignoring my answers.
03:16:00: No, I haven't ignored your answer I just personally feel that your answer is is intelligently designed and I commend you for that It is intelligently designed to simply avoid being accountable to a question
03:16:14: Let me explain something here you have ignored my responses several times
03:16:21: I've had to tell you more than once that you're ignoring what I'm telling you in my responses
03:16:27: I've told you about Jesus having two distinct natures at the one time and then you come back and you'll say oh
03:16:33: He's just human then that's what you're saying. You're saying that I keep it. That's not I didn't say that. I just said that According to you you admitted that a
03:16:41: God the Son couldn't do his will By the way, don't say you don't say a God the Son. Sorry my apology
03:16:48: Let me finish by your own admission by the very worst you use and I'm just no no, no, listen, let me finish
03:16:55: I'm trying to tell you you are not listening to what I'm saying and the proof of it has been in our conversation and When I give you an answer to something you tend to ignore it and interpret it only in the light of oneness
03:17:10: What I'm doing is Taking your position and showing your position internally is having a problem
03:17:17: I've already done that with the personhood of Christ and the person of the Father your your job now is to try and get back at me and say that we have the will of The Son who can't do the will of the
03:17:30: Father and then I ask you about that. I'm working with you I say which will is that according to your position and you're saying it's the human will
03:17:38: You're saying that when Jesus says I I came down I did my own well But the will of him who sent me that that's the that's that's the human nature.
03:17:47: That's what you said I'm working with what you say. I say so the eye of John 638 is the human nature speaking, right?
03:17:56: So you got a problem I have come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me so he the eye
03:18:02: Was in heaven and was sent The you're saying the human nature is the eye here
03:18:08: I have come down from heaven That's what you're saying. You said it's the This is super clarification
03:18:15: Which could according to your position which nature is speaking here Yeah, it's it's when he says
03:18:25: I have come down from heaven yes, he's speaking from the human nature, okay
03:18:30: But but let's do that. Let me so let me let's work with it So the human nature said
03:18:36: I have come down from heaven. How is the human nature speaking saying it was already in heaven? Yes, he wasn't the human nature literally wasn't in heaven.
03:18:46: Then. Why are you saying? From heaven Let me respond to that the
03:18:54: Bible does speak about the lamb being slain from the foundation of the world the Bible does say the lamb was
03:19:00: Forgiven from the foundation of the world now the lamb wasn't literally hanging back there on the cross
03:19:05: What was what was what was already back there was the foreknowledge of God?
03:19:10: It was the foreknowledge of his own human personification 4 ,000 years later from the time he created the world and When he says
03:19:21: I have come down When he says I have come down from heaven It simply means that he came down from heaven as the foreordained man as the lamb slain from the foundation of the world
03:19:31: As far as his humanity is concerned. I still maintain that his humanity began at Jerusalem in the womb of the
03:19:37: Virgin if this is the Trinity if if if if this particular verse is intended to justify or prove a
03:19:46: Trinity then I still maintain and Unfortunately, you are moving in circles over here
03:19:52: I still maintain that a person in the Godhead truly came down from heaven and could not do his own
03:19:58: That's the position you are representing right? Not yet. You don't understand the position.
03:20:05: I'm saying I'm telling you again. You don't understand it No, it's not
03:20:15: No, it's not. I'm trying to show you Because I've already answered this several times listen again
03:20:23: Jesus has all years. Yeah, but you're just moving. Can you listen, please? Listen, listen, how many natures of Jesus have?
03:20:32: He has two natures yeah two natures is does each nature possess a will Yes, okay is
03:20:40: Jesus one person Jesus is one Jesus Peter let me respond to that Jesus Peter.
03:20:47: Yes or no. Is he one person? He's a single person. Okay, so he's one person with two natures each having a will right?
03:20:57: Yes. Yes. Now the one person says I am hungry I am thirsty.
03:21:03: Is it the same person saying I each time If it's the same person saying
03:21:13: I'm hungry and I'll be with you always and it's the one person who's speaking And it's not the case that it's a human nature speaking and a divine nature speaking because there'll be two persons
03:21:25: It's the one person. Let me respond to that. Yeah Yeah, let me respond you are you are looking at the incarnation you are looking at the manifestation of God It's humanity as two persons and that's the and that's and that's your error
03:21:39: You you are constantly basing your foundation is that when God took on humanity?
03:21:45: Oh, that is miraculously another divine person. However, my position is in is Simple when
03:21:52: God took on humanity, you do not all of a sudden have a different human a different God member
03:21:58: When you simply have God coming in the coming in flesh God in the flesh
03:22:04: Yes, there were limitations. He lived a human life God in Eternity is quite different from God in the flesh
03:22:10: When God say when God was in the flesh when he says I thirst or I hunger We cannot expect
03:22:16: God in heaven to say the same things when he slept in the boat as a man we cannot expect him to have
03:22:24: Slept in heaven or take his whatever his usual naps So so we cannot learn the humanity of Christ in such a way to impose the revelation of extra
03:22:37: People in the Godhead a person in the Godhead And I hope I'm making myself clear again when
03:22:43: God came in the flesh. That wasn't the introduction of the Revelation of a new person that is simply the same person of God who came in the flesh
03:22:52: Let me also say this. I'll just take another 30 seconds if I can This is this is this is to the audience it's more of I'm not trying to debate anyone here
03:23:04: Can I proceed with this 30 seconds Yeah, so this is to the audience over here
03:23:11: When God came in the flesh now as we understand you all understand that God has a divine will that's that's the soul
03:23:18: Will of this we also understand that God is a he there's no place in the Bible that says God is a day
03:23:24: Some some way Yes, I know Someone like Genesis 126, but all of a sudden in the genitalian world the one us is more
03:23:35: Significant than all the other singular pronouns, but that no, we don't say that we'll leave that to another discussion
03:23:41: No, we don't say that he's another misrepresentation. We don't say it's more significant. We don't do that. Okay. Sure. Sure. Sure.
03:23:46: Okay, I'll just proceed so when when So God as we know him has one divine will he?
03:23:55: He he doesn't have his human attributes or his qualities in heaven He's quite different from us.
03:24:03: Although we were created in his image. He's holy He's able to be all he's able to be every way as he as he wills
03:24:09: He's able to manifest himself in different ways unlike us. So here we clearly know there is a difference between his eternal state or as God as he is as against who we are as human beings now
03:24:25: When God came in the flesh, we cannot think of God to be a man we can it would be it wouldn't be right to say that God is a man or it wouldn't be right to say that God is
03:24:35: One of us eternally. So when he came in the flesh, he had to he had to have lived a human life
03:24:43: And when he lived a human life, he was representing us He took our place, which is why he says not my will but the father's and that's what we have to do
03:24:52: We have to deny a human will we have to deny the cravings of the flesh that can get in the way of God We have to deny what we are or or the or the evil passions that we have
03:25:04: I'm not saying that Jesus had an evil passion But when he wanted to escape the cross that was still his human will
03:25:10: His humanity kicked in was like, you know, I cannot go through the cross, but he still
03:25:16: He still forsook his Human will and surrendered it to God. So that's him representing us
03:25:22: That's he he was laying an example to us and that is what we ought to do we cannot look at this as evidence of different persons in the
03:25:31: Godhead and I and I hope that in God's speed that some will come to that realization
03:25:42: Is Jesus one person or two persons? Jesus is the one individual of who
03:25:49: God is His humanity is not a different person. Let me maintain that.
03:25:55: His humanity is not a different person Okay, Brandon, I ask you simple questions and you go on and on I think
03:26:02: I learned it from you. I think I learned it from you because I do ask simple questions and you are moving in circles
03:26:08: But anyways, go ahead. Go ahead. Is Jesus one person or two persons? Jesus is absolutely one the one person
03:26:15: God is. Yes. No, I didn't ask who God is I asked you is he one person or two persons you at you change the question.
03:26:24: Let me let me respond I I am responding Matt. I am responding Well, Jesus is
03:26:30: Jesus as God also came in the flesh. So we have a difference over there So when you ask me is
03:26:36: Jesus one person? Yes, he is the one Individual of who God is but it depends now what you're trying to get at is you're purposely asking me if he's one person as How he was in the flesh
03:26:48: So if you want to be specific, that would be great but if you're asking me how many persons there are in the court is absolutely one person and That one person came in a human person, which is the same identity of who
03:27:01: God is. It's his same identity, but a different manifestation You've already admitted that the hypostatic union is a teaching that he's one person with two natures
03:27:11: That's what you've already admitted. Now. I'm asking you again. Is Jesus one person or two persons? He's in India.
03:27:22: I probably lost him So while we're waiting for him to get back do you guys see what's happening
03:27:29: I'm taking notes from what he says specifically I come back to what he says and I'm using his own words against him and showing the problem
03:27:38: And what he's doing is not really addressing the specificity I'm getting to but trying to jump sideways and ahead.
03:27:46: Well, yeah, that means you over here we haven't even gotten there yet and we can't get there until we go through the steps that Determine the nature and the work of person of who
03:27:56: Christ is This is what This is one of the ways to prove that oneness is false
03:28:03: If we can demonstrate that Jesus is a person and that he has two natures
03:28:10: Then the questions come does he speak as one person or as they speak as two persons? because what he's saying is
03:28:16: Sometimes he speaks as the divine and sometimes he speaks as the human that Necessitates then two persons because he's speaking as the divine and he's not speaking as a human.
03:28:28: Yeah, which is Nestorian is It's okay,
03:28:37: I understand no, I was just explaining to the audience what's going on here's some of the words you need to study
03:28:45: Okay Yeah, that'll do
03:28:52: Yeah, that'll do so you said earlier that Jesus is one person because you accepted the doctrine of the hypostatic
03:29:02: Union that is one person in two natures, right? When God came yes when
03:29:09: God came in the flesh. He was both Jesus Jesus by definition the hypostatic
03:29:17: Union is the teaching that in the one person are two distinct natures a divinely human
03:29:22: Do you agree with that? Yes One person so let me ask you is
03:29:30: Jesus one person or two persons He is one person with two manifestations
03:29:38: No, I didn't say that. I just asked is he one person? So the answer is yes now Here's a question.
03:29:44: Does he speak as one person or does he speak as two persons? He speaks as one person, but he speaks at the same time from the standpoint of view of his human humanity one person
03:29:55: All right So he speaks as one person right Then good
03:30:02: So then the one person speaks out of his divinity and out of his humanity
03:30:08: Humanity at the same time right because that's the one person speaking, right? Yes, yes
03:30:13: Great. So then we have the one person who speaks out of his divinity and humanity
03:30:18: Therefore you can't separate the divinity and the divinity and the humanity as speaking separately.
03:30:24: Can you? Yes Yes, of course you can because God is omnipresent No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
03:30:33: Jesus personhood. Don't jump off to our God omnipresent. Look if he speaks you look
03:30:39: I'm showing you you don't listen You don't listen Listen to me.
03:30:44: I'm writing this down So you can see it He speaks as one person
03:30:51: Right, that's what you said he speaks as one person then that means this is not true if he speaks as one person then he as One person is speaking from both his humanity and his divinity at the same time
03:31:18: Because he's one person one person It's not if you say the divine and then a different time the human speaks.
03:31:28: That's two persons It cannot be two persons Good, so that's because you are seeing two persons.
03:31:35: Let me respond. No, that's your position let me let me respond to that if if What's really happening is and this is this is what?
03:31:46: Interestingly Alternatarians like to always Hammer they you you completely ignore his humanity.
03:31:53: You are you are you are looking at his your Adversity No, I Apologize what
03:32:04: I was doing was using my just my fault. I should have told you I muted myself my bad I muted myself and I'm using my speech program to repeat what you say
03:32:13: So, I apologize that was distracting I should have told you my bad. All right, that's fine.
03:32:20: I'm using myself right now So I can do that. Okay, go ahead. That's fine. My position is very simple
03:32:25: You have the one God who came in the flesh while he was in the flesh He did speak from his humanity and he did didn't speak from his divinity
03:32:35: Just because he gave I'm saying this again Just because he revealed himself in flesh or just because he manifested himself in flesh that doesn't make another distinct identity or a different person that is the same person of who
03:32:49: God is and If if I can shed light on that and this is to the audience that God the the one omnipresent God who can
03:32:59: Manifest himself in different ways can do that So when he came in the flesh that isn't the revelation of somebody else but that is the same
03:33:07: God who Acted out. I wouldn't say acted out, but he displayed True humanity in the flesh while he was in the flesh
03:33:16: So yes, he is the one person of God, but he didn't speak sometimes on this humanity and he didn't speak from his
03:33:24: Divinity if this is if if you if you want to take his The things that he said it said as a man and and try and fit that in the
03:33:32: Godhead Then you have a member in the Godhead who's weaker or who's you know, subordinate to another to somebody else
03:33:40: That is that is what the Trinitarian position will be But if you understand that when
03:33:45: God took on flesh that he was he was taking our place He lived a human life and he
03:33:53: Acted out and both he was God and he was a man at the same time Okay Did you admit
03:34:02: I took notes try to the best I could understand you and I'm not knocking your accent You have a bit of an accent, but I have 80 decibel ringing in both ears.
03:34:09: It's very loud in my end So I have trouble hearing you. Sometimes that's not a knock on you. You do your English is very good
03:34:16: Thank you. So The one God who came in flesh you speak of his humanity and things like that.
03:34:22: Okay, so I'm asking about his personhood This is where the issue hits the the this is where it becomes important I'm gonna go to the top of the hour because it'd be 11 o 'clock for me.
03:34:32: This is where it becomes important You see is God one person or three persons?
03:34:38: this is the question and If we define personhood
03:34:45: Which we've already done We apply the definition We have to be consistent in how we define it and apply it
03:34:52: We know that Jesus is a person as you've already admitted he's a person Now when he's speaking he's speaking to someone else
03:35:02: But what you do then is you say well, that's his humanity speaking to the divinity But then what you do is you divide the person and you you destroy the person at that point
03:35:13: Because the person you've already said he Jesus speaks as one person He speaks as one person we already got over this the hypothetic
03:35:22: Union the two natures One person it's diathletism as two wills is it the body will don't know this and he's too well
03:35:32: That's a that's the orthodox position in Trinitarianism anyway that two wills one will of the flesh one will of the divine but they're manifested as one single will
03:35:41: I I'm thirsty. I'm hungry. I this I that if you say that there is a human will and a divine will speaking
03:35:52: Alternately then you're saying each one is a person because personhood is required because speaking
03:36:00: Requires personhood which you've already admitted But that would mean that Jesus is two persons which you properly deny, but you can't deny that he's
03:36:12: Two persons and yet also have him speak as two persons You have him speak as two persons when you say the human
03:36:21: Part speaks to the divine part That's a human person because personhood requires a will
03:36:29: Awareness of others you already agreed to that. So you are saying there's two persons You're saying a divine person and a human person in the one body of Christ So this is what you're saying.
03:36:41: I'm catching you on what you're saying and taking these words writing them down This is what I do during debates.
03:36:47: I write people's words down. I take this speech thing. I do this I'm showing you you're inconsistent and You're inconsistent because you're a oneness not gonna understand something when
03:36:58: I talk to Mormons They have a Mormon brain. They can't understand a lot of stuff when
03:37:04: I talk to atheists They have an atheist brain their presuppositions have a certain area and therefore they can't go beyond that presupposition
03:37:12: You have a oneness view To know if you've been deceived or don't believe something is true two things to two main ways to do this internal contradiction or external fact that contradicts your worldview
03:37:27: What I'm doing with you so far is showing your internal contradiction I'm getting you to the place where your your oneness doesn't work because you're saying in the person of Christ He's one person with two natures and yet you have the person of the divine
03:37:44: Speaking or the person of the human speaking to the person of the divine because you already admitted
03:37:50: I scroll up and show you the notes Where personhood means having a will can speak recognizing you and yours and so you're going to say that the human nature
03:37:59: Father your will be done. That means it's the human nature which by your definition has to be human person
03:38:06: That's a person who it is. And so you're gonna now divide Jesus into two persons, but if I say that you're gonna say no, we only believe is one person
03:38:14: But this is where the incongruity comes in because then I'll work with you again and again and trying to show you
03:38:22: Matt we are certainly short on time. I hear you out. I Do know what you're
03:38:28: I know what you're getting at So what you're saying is because a will necessitates or the person necessitates a will since you have two wills
03:38:38: They go to persons. That's your position, right? And I and I hear you all I hear you But but what what what we what we should understand is that God God is not a man for sure
03:38:49: God is certainly not a man. We can we can in all agree. He is not eternally a man
03:38:55: The word became flesh the world was God became flesh, but he's not eternally a man
03:39:01: What do you I'm sorry what he's not what a man God God is not eternally a man not in the past, right?
03:39:07: Right in eternal eternally. God is not a man. So so when God came in the flesh He he stepped into I wouldn't say another person.
03:39:16: He stepped into another manifestation But yet in his identity, he is he's absolutely one in his identity.
03:39:23: That's my position so yes in his Humanity, he did display.
03:39:29: He did display What what seemed to be like, you know here there's somebody else talking or you have somebody else now as we can sharply see
03:39:39: The position that you are obviously Representing is since since you believe that that wills
03:39:46: Necessitate to two persons since you believe that a will necessitates two persons They know not a will two persons but a will
03:39:57: So if Jesus had two wills then the second person was further another person so the second member in the
03:40:05: Godhead is now and so now you have four people in the Godhead because you Let me finish you you you admitted that a person necessitates a will and You also admitted that Jesus as the second member of the
03:40:23: Godhead had two natures and he had two wills you you said it You you clear that and I and I totally humbly embrace that you said
03:40:33: Jesus has two wills which means the second person is not a person but now is two persons and You would ultimately have to conclude that there are four persons in the
03:40:45: Trinity. I'm good I'm going to repeat repeat this again for the audience Matt Matt clearly admitted and I and I'm with him on that that a person necessitates a will he also mentioned that Jesus as The second person or the other person in the
03:41:03: Godhead has two natures and two wills So if he had two wills then the second person is no longer one person
03:41:10: But two persons and I'm and I would say no, that's not two persons. It's it's the same
03:41:15: God who has come in humanity That's my position and I'm trying to help you with your position because then I want to avoid the
03:41:22: The fallacy of the four persons in the Trinity as for your language so in conclusion as we can sharply see that the position that you adhere to is that you have four persons in the
03:41:34: Godhead because according to you if a will Necessitates a single person and the second person had two wills then the second person is truly not one person but two persons and then obviously you have four persons in the
03:41:46: Godhead and That's that's what we can conclude over here. But my position is very simple.
03:41:52: It doesn't have to be so complicated You don't have to shit out it with so much of mystery and so much of the Greek language and everything
03:41:58: It's very simple. God loved us so much. He came for us in his humanity He displayed humanity he displayed what it means to take our place he loved us and his divinity
03:42:09: He's the one answering God a prayer answering God. He's the father. Jesus is the father This is to the audience
03:42:17: He inherited a more excellent name than the angel. So the son inherited the father's name The father is just passing down his eternal name to the human manifestation
03:42:27: It's as simple as that You don't have different persons in the Godhead that you have to beat yourself up to and try and come to that Realization or understanding
03:42:35: God just wants you to believe that he is one and that he loves us and he has a single name
03:42:41: That's Jesus unless if you say this is the one God, but he's not the father then
03:42:47: Apart from the father This is a good example of you not understanding my position and understand the
03:42:56: Trinitarian position So Jesus has a second nature you admitted that as well you said that Yes, Jesus has two wills.
03:43:04: It's called diathletism. That's a lot of Christians don't know this but that's what it is But no, it doesn't necessitate four persons
03:43:11: Personhood it does by all language. It does. I was really said Sorry, I'm just I'm just going to help you out
03:43:18: You clearly said that a person necessitates a will and if Jesus by your admission as the second member of the
03:43:25: Godhead Or has got the son at two wills then he is no longer a single person, but he's actually two persons
03:43:32: So if he's two persons, obviously, then you have the other two persons and then you have four persons in the Godhead That is your position and you will have to gather some amount of humility to sort of accept that because that's by your own language
03:43:45: You ready? Yeah, I'm ready. There it is right there. I'm writing this out.
03:43:52: I Said diathletism diathletism relates only to the incarnation to the person of Christ diathletism die to The let -o will two wills you already admitted that Jesus having a divine
03:44:13: Nature would have to have a divine will associated with that nature. You already said yes to that It also applies to the human nature you already agreed to that that's called diathletism
03:44:24: I also said that the wills are expressed as one will Because Jesus is one person
03:44:32: Which is the hypothetic Union when you said what you just said You're telling me you don't listen
03:44:40: I'm explaining this to you now. You can say well, that's incoherent It's up to you to demonstrate it's incoherent, but you've not done that Hold on.
03:44:50: Hold on. I let you I let you speak all these long things I'm just telling you that you are
03:44:57: Inaccurate in what you conclude and you're not hearing what I'm saying. It's many times.
03:45:03: It had to say to you No, that's not correct many times I've had to say to you this is what you've already agreed to and then you contradict yourself
03:45:12: I'm the one taking notes from what it is. You're saying it started here
03:45:18: We started here. This is what I've been saying, but taking words taking notes. This is on this I have another page and this is what you might not my notes here.
03:45:27: It's a 600 words so far of just notes All right. I'm not saying it proves anything
03:45:33: I'm just saying I'm trying to get what you say, right and represent what you say accurately Which is why
03:45:38: I said for example, is he one person or two persons? I asked you specifically and What you do is you say you say that you believe in four persons in the
03:45:47: Godhead. No, I don't Because look, let me tell you something Right there
03:45:55: I've taught on that many times Responding to that over the years.
03:46:00: I can't even tell you how many times Wrong. We do not combine the human nature with the divine nature
03:46:07: By not logical necessity God is something by that Matt. I'm sorry.
03:46:13: You're being dishonest. You just did that you just combined You need to You have you have to stop you have to stop attacking my character and calling me a liar
03:46:27: I'm sorry, but you are blatantly contradicting yourself. Okay. No, no, no, no, no, no, no Contradiction is different than saying
03:46:34: I'm dishonest Dishonesty is an intention of character to be deceptive. Let me ask you.
03:46:39: Am I being dishonest? I can I can apologize for that particular. Okay now good
03:46:45: Yeah, don't attack my character and say I'm dishonest sure it may have come out in okay
03:46:53: I'm going with what you I'm going with what you have said You've said these things and I keep telling you in Diathletism, it's related to the hypostatic union where there's one person who expresses himself as one person with one will
03:47:10: That's how it's expressed Go look at systematic theologies. Look up diathletism.
03:47:16: Look up hypostatic union and read this is what we teach I'm telling you this there cannot be it cannot be that the human nature becomes divine
03:47:26: We don't teach that we've never taught that that's Mormonism We don't teach that the human nature is fused with the divine nature
03:47:34: We don't the only place where there's a union is in the person of Christ Hypostatic union which only applies to Jesus the divine nature is still present in the
03:47:46: Trinity It's how it is by logical necessity, but we have the incarnation I've thought about this and answer this many times now look
03:47:55: I'm gonna ask you something I want to ask you something because I got to get going soon.
03:48:01: Look I want to ask you something Okay before you before you get going
03:48:07: I hope I can respond for a few seconds if you if you misrepresent me I'm gonna have to come back and correct you like for about the eighth or ninth time
03:48:18: Okay You wanted to show me something God spoke further to Moses and said to him.
03:48:26: I am Yahweh And I appeared to Abraham Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty But by my name
03:48:32: Yahweh, I did not make myself known to him now. Let me ask you Was it
03:48:37: God? Oh, I I I still I still want to respond to your will but I hope I can respond to that I'll quickly respond to that.
03:48:44: Can you can you go back to the page where you mentioned them by? Tell it ism by telepism or whatever.
03:48:52: Please go to that page. That would be great Okay. So this is this is to the audience and whoever's listening.
03:48:59: I'm glad you are listening Matt maintained that he doesn't fuse the divine nature with the human nature
03:49:06: And yet and yet here he says I said and I tell this is what he quoted
03:49:12: I said and I tell I tell it ism that the two worlds are expressed as one will and he clearly said that a will
03:49:20: Necessitates a person and and and it almost seems like he he gets to decide
03:49:26: Whether two worlds can be one one will no two wheels cannot be one will hello who wills cannot be one will and if if if he's already trying to You know surpass his accountability to what he has to be accountable to and by trying to dictate or other
03:49:46: Maintain that two worlds can be expressed as one will that that doesn't make sense Like when Jesus says not my will be done, but the father's will be done
03:49:54: You cannot say you cannot say his human will is the same as his divine will or at least his human will
03:50:00: Trying to be fused with his divine will so There you go, I mean In all honesty, it looks like Matt is contradicting himself over there.
03:50:10: And when he says He clearly says that if each person Necessitates a will and he maintained that there are two worlds inside the
03:50:21: Second person has got two wills And then he's trying to avoid the accountability of admitting that there are indeed four persons in the
03:50:29: God here He's trying to fuse two worlds as one will which absolutely makes no sense. You cannot say two worlds are the same will
03:50:37: Because two worlds cannot be the same. Well, if when Jesus was in the garden of Gethsemane, he had the will to Want to escape the cross, but you cannot say that is a father's will and and trying blur the difference between his human will and his divine will and obviously
03:50:57: You obviously cannot we don't have much time but all in all we can sharply see that Trinitarianism as as for how
03:51:07: Matt describes it you have the second person who's got two wills and he admitted that Each will represents a person
03:51:15: So if the second person truly has two wills and I know he's going to still move in circles there if the second person truly has two wills that the second person isn't a person but two persons and then obviously you would have like Four -person record and I don't think he would want that and no
03:51:31: Trinitarian would want that Jesus has two wills right you do you agree with that?
03:51:39: Yes, Jesus is Jesus is Jesus two persons In his incarnation he
03:51:47: In his in his incarnation. Yes. He he did appear as I wouldn't say two persons but two manifestations
03:51:53: No, I didn't ask manifestations you said Jesus is one person You're the you're failing to put the context of diathletism in the hypothetic
03:52:01: Union, but I'm trying to show you something you said Jesus is one person. I've got your ear of affirmation up higher on the screen
03:52:08: You said you brought the point each will necessitates being a person in the context of Jesus and diathletism
03:52:15: So which is it is Jesus one person or is Jesus two persons? Tell me which one it is. I Do this
03:52:25: Okay, I didn't ask you that as Jesus one person or two persons, which is it?
03:52:31: Okay, if if if I if I admit Jesus is power, hold on. Hold on I'm responding to you if I admit
03:52:37: Jesus is two persons, then you will have to admit there are four persons in the garden Okay, I'm asking you question
03:52:43: Is Jesus one person or two persons? And if I say two persons, you're just answer the question.
03:52:50: Is he one person or two persons? He is he is one person And why would you say that each person in the has to have a will in the title of you maintain?
03:53:02: No, no No, you're not that. No, I don't know. I don't because I'm telling you it's in the context
03:53:10: You took it out of context That's what you're doing Dyselitism deals with the two natures of Christ each having a will and yet they're expressed and men
03:53:22: Maintained in the single person of Christ as a single will That's what I keep telling you in the issue of the father being a separate person and the son the son
03:53:33: Himself is expressed as one person. That's a different context and the father and the son speaking to each other as different persons
03:53:41: You've committed an error of logic Equivocation, you've not defined your terms.
03:53:46: Well, look look I've explained this before but you don't want to listen If I say you are listening,
03:53:53: I know I'm very much listening. I'm taking the note. I think wait a minute. Wait a minute I think you're talking Don't you keep talking and going and going and going and you go on for two three minutes and I ask you a simple question
03:54:03: You offer another two or three minutes The fact is this you're the one who's saying in the context of Jesus, which you're misapplying from what
03:54:10: I've said You're saying that Jesus is one person, but he has two wills
03:54:15: That means you're saying your argument gets me that must mean he has two persons, but that's it works against you
03:54:22: And I ask you which is it either way you contradict yourself Because if you say he's one person that you can't argue that I'm saying he's two
03:54:31: Hold on if you say two persons you can't say he's one. Okay, so I'm helping you out.
03:54:37: I'm helping you out No, no, no, no, we're gonna move on because I got to get going soon I want to ask you something
03:54:44: This is what I've been I want to ask you right here God spoke further to Moses said to him.
03:54:49: I am that's Yahweh I appeared to Abraham Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty, but by his name, you know
03:54:56: Lord. He didn't make himself known to them now Was it God who was speaking to Moses?
03:55:02: Yes, it is God who's speaking to Moses and Using words like I I'm the
03:55:08: Lord and you still see did Did God did God did God identify him by his own name
03:55:14: Yahweh? Yeah Okay, and this is
03:55:26: God Almighty who's appearing so Courtney your theology. Who was this back in the
03:55:31: Old Testament time? Who was this is this is Jesus This is the this is Jesus as the father. This is this is
03:55:36: Jehovah. Yes This is this is Jesus as Jehovah, but Jesus didn't exist until later
03:55:44: It seems like you've got our oneness doctrine skewed inside your this because you said
03:55:50: Jesus Hold on the oneness doctrine is Jesus is the father. He is he is
03:55:56: Yahweh Okay, Yahweh before he came in the flesh. So so this is this is the son that they're speaking.
03:56:02: Is it you're seeing here? Son, who is who's the who's the who is this?
03:56:09: We said I am the Lord and I appeared. I want to know this is who is it? You want me to respond yeah
03:56:17: This is this is the one God was speaking this is this is the one spirit. Yeah His name is
03:56:25: Jesus Why does he say his name is Yahweh? Because Jesus is
03:56:30: Yahweh salvation. I thought I thought we were in agreement with that. What no It seems to be your it seems to be you have changed your perception about me
03:56:39: It looks like you look at me as a Jehovah witness over here because you're asking me a question
03:56:44: You're asking me a very basic question. You're asking me a very basic oneness question. I'm finding out where you're at Sure, but I already said that so this was not the father.
03:56:55: It wasn't the son. It wasn't the Holy Spirit It was God, you know, it was the father. It's the father speaking the father speaking
03:57:02: Father speaking God is the father. So the father is speaking and says that he appeared as God Almighty Yes, okay
03:57:13: Okay, I Had to go I mean I do in a few Not that anyone has seen the father except the one is from God.
03:57:20: He has seen the father So Jesus says the father has not been seen Okay So who were they seeing who's
03:57:28: God Almighty, but not God not the father You said it was the father's being seen
03:57:37: Jesus says it wasn't the father. So who's God Almighty? Who's not the father? Hold on Can you please ask your question again?
03:57:49: God spoke to Moses said I am Yahweh. I appeared as God Almighty. I asked you who that was
03:57:55: You said it was the father. Yes, that's the father. Yes Jesus says not that anyone has seen the father
03:58:03: Yes, so Jesus says no one's seen the father. You say God the father says he appeared and was seen
03:58:10: Just because so because yeah, I'm responding so who's who is God Almighty who's not the father
03:58:18: No, because you are looking at this as another God from the father. No, I'm not No, I'm not.
03:58:24: I'm not looking as another God. I don't believe in polytheism. I'm responding to you Who's not the father
03:58:33: God Almighty is the father Jesus says the father hasn't been seen.
03:58:38: So who were they saying? Who's not the father? Yes, they have seen out they have seen a theophany of these when
03:58:44: Moses When Moses asked to see God he did not show himself He did he rebuild himself in a theophany.
03:58:51: It almost looks like you have been you've had a you've had a very distorted foundation
03:58:59: For lack of better word because you still don't know that God in the Old Testament revealed himself in the often is
03:59:07: Okay, this is I trust me. I know very much about it I've been if I'm respond still responding to your question
03:59:14: You're not you're an answer the question this if this is if this is not the father over here Then you have another
03:59:20: God over here and and that's it. And that's what you're gonna be denied I don't believe in more than one
03:59:25: God This is why you have a problem your lack of Understanding means that you falsely accuse a
03:59:34: Trinitarian is something he doesn't believe which means you're so entrenched in your oneness That you can't understand the other position properly.
03:59:42: So here's my question God spoke to Moses. It's not a vision.
03:59:48: It's not a dream calls himself. Yahweh He appeared as God Almighty you said it's the father
03:59:53: Jesus says it wasn't the father so I'm gonna ask Jesus did not say it wasn't the father if that was if this isn't the father if this if this was from from which book
04:00:03: Is that can you please go back to that was John 646? No, not John I'm talking about the
04:00:08: Old Testament verse if this was if this was is not the father
04:00:14: Then you have another God over here, which you blatantly denied this which is why I maintain it
04:00:20: You believe in one thing, but you confess another Okay No, here's the question answer
04:00:30: Here's the question to answer who were they singing the Old Testament who's God Almighty, but not
04:00:36: God the Father Who are they singing? It is it is the let me let me respond.
04:00:42: It is the father. It is the father I never said it wasn't the father. Oh, sorry.
04:00:48: Sorry You said it was a father who was seen Yes Hold on the father was seen as a theophany.
04:00:58: That's not I have been seen as a theophany is the theophany God Almighty The theophany is not
04:01:05: God Almighty the theophany means God says yes, you don't believe the word of God You're you you call
04:01:12: Jesus a liar So are you doing according to you how can you dare speak about God's word like this and contradict
04:01:18: God's word it's God who spoke to Moses and he said that he was God Almighty and you said it was the father and Jesus says not that anyone has seen the father.
04:01:27: You are so stuck. Tell me who was God Almighty Who's not the father see
04:01:32: Matt Matt Matt by raising your voice and having a more better pre -eminence in your in your presenting one one
04:01:40: Camouflage my position over here. So who's not God the father? Yes. Yes.
04:01:45: I will I'm gonna I'm gonna very Systematically Respond to that and I it would be really nice if you do not intervene this
04:01:57: The God who is mentioned over here the God who is mentioned in the Old Testament that you that you are pointing me at That you are pointing me to is actually the father
04:02:07: If that is not the father that that must be a that must be God the Son according to you so if that is
04:02:13: God the Son that means there's a member in the Godhead who was seen and And the first and in the episodes of John John clearly wrote no man has seen
04:02:23: God at any time So if no man has seen God at any time that includes God the
04:02:29: Son also So by your definition you have got the Son who was not seen but you are still imposing the fact that God the
04:02:37: Son was Seen my position is very simple The father was the father did appear him did did appear to his prophets but he appeared to them in angelic or theophany forms and As far as his spirit being is concerned as far as You know, he's light is constant or that divine or whatever that majesty is constant.
04:02:58: No man has seen him But as far as the often ease are concerned, they did was he often is built a way to man
04:03:04: But unfortunately the worst that you took me to the Old Testament They you are trying to look at that as God Okay Let me let me quickly ask you the
04:03:13: Old Testament that you took me to Who do you believe that is if that is not reincarnate Christ? That is a pre -incarnate
04:03:19: Christ So according to you the pre -incarnate Christ was seen But in the epistles of John John said
04:03:26: John maintained that no man has seen God and he just said what 18 Yes, he just said no man has seen
04:03:33: God at any time. That's the father that includes of that It doesn't include the person with the rest of the verse does that include the persons of the
04:03:41: Trinity quote the rest of the verse? Does God in that include the rest of the person quote the rest of the verse?
04:03:48: Does I'm asking you you you are the one who says God is a Trinity I'm asking you does God mean the
04:03:54: Trinity Okay, you are the one who says God is I'm not the one you're not listening.
04:04:00: You don't want to listen I asked you to quote the rest of the verse. What's why are you afraid to quote the rest of the verse?
04:04:08: Matt see you're not listening. Okay, which is the worst which is the worst just for your sake you quoted it
04:04:14: Don't you know God's no one's seen God at any time. What verse is that? What book is it?
04:04:22: John 1 18 no man has seen God at any time the only begotten God in the bosom of the Father.
04:04:27: He has explained him Yes, explain what? God says
04:04:32: I will answer and God says in Exodus 6 2 and 3 that he appears as God Almighty Jesus is explaining this
04:04:40: God walked with Adam and Eve in the garden. Jesus is the one who's explaining this Jesus is the one who is revealing the true nature of who
04:04:48: God is because he's extract representation of God Hebrews 1 3 When Jesus says oh and furthermore if you did your homework, which
04:04:57: I suggest you do Look at John 1 verse 1 in the beginning was the word the word was with God and the word was
04:05:06: God He's with God And Let me finish let me finish in verse 14
04:05:16: The word became flesh and dwelt among us. The reason I'm telling you this is because the
04:05:21: Jehovah's Witnesses Ask what you ask and I did a let me finish
04:05:27: I did a study and I discovered that every time the word
04:05:32: God appears in the Gospel of John After verse 14, it's in reference to God the
04:05:37: Father now I've done my homework. I can tell you that when we prove it to me
04:05:45: Because Jesus says no man's seen the father. So who were they that is?
04:05:52: Here's the question, can you answer this question stop avoiding it answer the question Answer the question
04:06:00: I mean you you started the stream yard Yeah, so I can pretty much expect that you would have more time
04:06:05: Exodus 6 2 & 3 you said it was God the Father Jesus says the father's never seen please explain that Yeah, the father.
04:06:15: Yeah, the father is never seen in his spiritual form, but if he often is yes, he did appear to them Is God Almighty?
04:06:23: Yes, so God appeared as God Almighty, right? God appeared in a theophany.
04:06:29: What is the dispute over there as God Almighty, right? That was the father. So did they see the father?
04:06:36: They did not see the father in spiritual form, but they did see him in the spiritual form in the spirit
04:06:42: Would you get this in the spiritual form as a spirit? Hear me out when when John says God is a spirit when
04:06:49: John hear me out when John says God is a spirit You cannot see your spirit. It's as simple as that So when when the
04:06:55: Bible says no man has seen God at any time no man has seen him has a spirit It's as simple as that Who manifested to God Almighty as God Almighty?
04:07:08: It was it was the father just because they see him because did they see the father? Not hear me out.
04:07:14: Just because they see God the Father They did not see his spiritual form, but they did see him as a theophany.
04:07:21: I didn't say his spiritual form I asked you a question. You don't answer the question you reshape the question so you can answer a different question
04:07:28: Did they see God the Father? They did not see God the Father they did not see his they did not see him in a spiritual form
04:07:36: So when it says here God spoke to Moses and said I am
04:07:42: Yahweh. That's God. It's not a vision. Not an angel I appeared as Abraham to Abraham as I could
04:07:48: Jacob in as God Almighty So he appeared as God Almighty. Do you want to know where that occurred?
04:08:00: When Abram was 99 years old the Lord appeared to Abraham and said to him. I am God Almighty Why before me when when when the
04:08:08: Bible says when he says wait listen It is you it is you who is imposing who are imposing a
04:08:15: God the Son in this or sorry the pre -incarnate Christ In in in this Old Testament verse it is
04:08:22: You you are you are seeing it Whereas in one John in one John 18 hold on in one
04:08:28: John 18 It says no man has seen God at any time. My question to you is do you believe
04:08:33: God is the Trinity? I told you it's in reference to the father because the world
04:08:38: I'm just asking you Do you believe God is now now you don't reshape your questions.
04:08:43: You accuse me that I'm reshaping my no No, I'm asking you is God the Trinity God is revealed as a
04:08:50: Trinity. Yes, God God. So then when we see the word God, that is simply the Trinity. No So God is not the
04:08:59: Trinity. I didn't say that look you don't understand Let me explain let me explain one you're making a mistake another mistake
04:09:12: Is Jesus God in flesh Brandon explain the error you're making time is past present and future.
04:09:23: All right Time is I I was just trying to finish that one question of mine.
04:09:29: I am I was asking you if God is the Trinity Okay in one sense
04:09:35: Would you let me finish? In one sense in one sense
04:09:41: God is a Trinity in another sense when it uses the word God is not speaking of the Trinity And how do you get to decide that?
04:09:51: There's this dirty word that we can read. It's called context You need to stop you to stop you to listen you need to listen you need to listen you don't listen
04:10:09: Look instruct those who are rich. Oh, excuse me You keep the commandment without standard reproach until the appearing of our
04:10:17: Lord Jesus Christ Which he will bring about the proper time He who is the blessed and only sovereign king of king and Lord Jesus Christ Who alone possesses immortality
04:10:39: That's wait, no, no, that's a father speaking I'm sorry
04:10:47: Which was the worst you were asking I'm asking you who's the who
04:10:54: Alone who possesses immortality that that is the father that the father And was an unapproachable light who no man has seen or can see right?
04:11:05: Yes. Yes Yes, that is just in a spiritual form. Exactly. No man has seen Jesus in the spiritual form because he is the father and interestingly, so So then
04:11:20: The father was not the one being seen in the Old Testament was it just like you said it was
04:11:26: Yes, he wasn't being seen Spiritual form stop changing stuff
04:11:34: I'll be very honest with you. You have to get your foundations, right? I'm really sorry for saying this you really have to get your foundations, right?
04:11:42: Because in the Old Testament God no man has seen God at any time. That's that's a no -brainer
04:11:48: No, man has seen God saying here who they sing They saw it's it's obvious that they saw his theophany.
04:11:55: In fact, even when Moses Find where it's the opposite I asked you to define it.
04:12:02: Theophany is a temporary manifestation a temporary manifestation of God Yes, okay
04:12:10: Okay But I'm still curious to know yeah, what do you
04:12:16: God sometimes the scriptures and Moses went up to with Aaron native in Abihu and Stanley the elders of Israel They saw the
04:12:24: God of Israel They saw the God of it. Did they see the God of Israel? They saw the
04:12:29: God of Israel, but they saw him through a manifestation and under his feet There appeared to be a paving of sapphires clears the sky itself
04:12:36: Yet he had not stretched out his hands against and tons of nobles of Israel. They saw God they drink Let me ask you did they see
04:12:42: God? Yes, they saw him but they saw him through manifestation this on the theophanies Now no one has seen
04:12:50: God at any time harmonize them Yeah, try one statement at a time and I'll show you where you got problems
04:12:57: I think I think you will have to be the one who will have to harmonize this. I have no problem harmonizing
04:13:03: I've been using this since 1988 Sure. Sure. I It can be even before that, but I'm sorry.
04:13:09: I was born after much after that Yeah, it is it is it is but obvious God is a spirit no man can see your spirit and Who they seen who they say
04:13:19: God Almighty. So they saw the often they saw God Almighty They saw the often you have
04:13:25: God Almighty. Did they see God Almighty? Good. They saw the father Yeah, they haven't seen the father in his spirit form
04:13:35: They haven't seen the father's if why does why does God not speak? No, no, no, no
04:13:43: You keep playing with the word of God to make it fit what you wanted to do No, I'm not
04:13:49: I don't
04:14:00: Brandon I don't change a text. You're the one who keeps reinterpreting it as I read it
04:14:05: I ask you to read it. You don't even read the text You don't even know what it is. I believe and what the Trinity is the hypothetic union community with your mottom
04:14:12: You don't even know when I ask you this you backtrack on your words after I set you up God spoke to Moses it who was it and you said it's the father when
04:14:23: I show you the problem the father Then you change your position. So let me ask
04:14:31: Brandon you said they saw this is God the father who was seen Do you admit that was
04:14:37: God the father who was seen or is it was not the case? That he was seen God the father was seen as a theophany
04:14:47: Seen yes, right as a theophany Then then if he's seen as a theophany
04:14:53: God Almighty then they saw God Almighty And you're just saying how it was seen as a theophany now
04:14:59: Jesus says not that anyone seen the father so who were they saying who's not God Almighty who is God Almighty, but not the father
04:15:05: It is you who are making it is you who are making the Almighty different from the father that is your problem and Unfortunately in your know
04:15:13: God the father is almighty and the son is almighty and the Holy Spirit is almighty Yeah, can you answer this question?
04:15:22: Let's answer the question Is Is is
04:15:28: God the what's your question? What again is your question right there highlighted? I do not believe
04:15:37: God Almighty is Someone other than the father So why are you asking me that question? You said it was
04:15:44: God Almighty who was seen you're saying is even as a theophany which admits you're seeing God the father was Let me respond to you
04:15:50: Jesus says the father was never seen who are they seeing in the Old Testament? Who's God Almighty, but not
04:15:56: God the father See man, I want you to listen to me and I'm and I'm saying this to all the audience again
04:16:03: When God the Almighty God is the father God is the Almighty unfortunately in internationalism and in their own people that work they
04:16:13: There is a person who is the Almighty but who's not the father and yet they think that there's only one
04:16:18: Almighty that in itself Is is it actually is is every reason to deny the community?
04:16:25: But unfortunately, they will admit that they could not believe in three Almighty. They will admit it God okay.
04:16:31: That's for another day Now in the Old Testament when God revealed himself when the
04:16:37: Bible says that God appeared to so -and -so It simply means he appeared in the orphanage and I will prove that to you
04:16:44: God who in sundry times He proves one thing in diverse manners and in times Faster that is a different ways spoken revealed himself to the prophets
04:16:53: But in these last times he's spoken to us to his own man human manifestation, which is his son so in the
04:17:01: Old Testament, yes, they did see the father, but they saw a theophany of the father or they saw a sort of a visual representation of the father
04:17:10: But they but as far as his spiritual essence is concerned. No man has seen him until until the time appointed
04:17:19: To see him but as far as his spiritual and and and who is that spirit?
04:17:25: Yes, that is Jesus himself Jesus is the father. He is the one God Who came to live in flesh?
04:17:32: So yes, and and and by the way, our dear friend here had pointed me out to King of Kings and Lord of Lords So if he believed that is the father
04:17:41: Well in Revelations 1916, Jesus is called the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords So there you go.
04:17:47: You have people in the Godhead who are fully God and each is called King of Kings and Lord of Lords and yet And yet people will want to deny that they do not believe in three things or three gods or three almighty
04:17:59: That in itself is is every reason to deny the truth. Okay, can you answer the question now?
04:18:08: I Answer the question Matt already. They saw the ophany of his Yeah, see this what it says
04:18:15: According to you X is 6 2 & 3 was God the father that was seen as a theophany Which as you said is a manifestation of God that means
04:18:23: God the father was seen I'd admits you that God the father was seen good yet.
04:18:28: Jesus said no one's ever seen the father now Here's my question who was seen in the
04:18:34: Old Testament who was God Almighty, but not God the father Jesus says it wasn't the father
04:18:43: Jesus says it wasn't the father Sorry Jesus says it was not the father
04:18:51: Since when did God not become the father? Look so does it say what does
04:19:00: Jesus say not that anyone has seen the father. So has anyone seen the father? No one has seen his spiritual form.
04:19:08: Yes, it didn't say no man form Notice how you're changing the text God is a spirit
04:19:15: John 4 24 and spirit does not have flesh and bone to see I have Luke 24 39. Look. Yeah, so Not anyone has seen the father except the one that's
04:19:24: Jesus is the only one who's seen the father, right? Yes. Yes Really? When did
04:19:29: Jesus see the father? When did he see the father
04:19:37: He is the father when did he see the father he is
04:19:42: God Almighty so he Is the father So, okay, so he saw himself
04:19:50: He saw himself and yet it says that he was God Almighty who you say is a father and Jesus says it wasn't the father
04:19:57: So here's the question. It doesn't say Jesus wasn't a God Almighty. Isn't the father? When did
04:20:02: Jesus say that God Almighty is not the father? I'm asking you. Where did Jesus say that I didn't say that I said no, you're not listening again
04:20:13: Okay, this is what no you're not look according to you according to you
04:20:28: Exodus 6 2 & 3 You said it was God the father who was seen as a theophany, which is a manifestation of God.
04:20:37: That means God the father manifested himself Jesus says no one's ever seen the father
04:20:45: Yes, who yet it was God Almighty who was seen so this is
04:20:51: That's because you are understanding that to be that God that Abraham Isaac and Jacob saw the spirit of God But I'm saying no, they did not see the spirit of God They saw the theophany of his and the theophany was the father and Jesus says no one's ever seen the father
04:21:05: So who were they seeing Who is
04:21:14: Seen in the Old Testament Who is God Almighty? But not the father. Can you answer the question?
04:21:21: The the one who was seen in the Old Testament is that the of any of the father? I'm making it very simple Yeah, that means the father was seen so but Jesus says no one's ever seen the father of the father was seen
04:21:31: Yeah, that means the theophany means manifestation of God One sec
04:21:40: Matt You can understand this you can see me as Brandon I I don't
04:21:46: I don't deny you haven't seen me, but you haven't you cannot see my spirit Okay, you cannot see my spirit.
04:21:53: It's as simple as that you don't have to you don't have to complex things around and and make it like as if So this is what just so you know
04:22:03: This is what people do in oneness when they're pinned They stop reading the text and they start inserting philosophy in the issue.
04:22:13: Let me finish. Let me finish Let me finish What you're doing is now
04:22:19: Differentiating between the on toss and the attributes of the on toss and you're saying look what
04:22:26: I'm gonna do now Is even though God isn't speaking the way I'm speaking about the ontological essence of the nature
04:22:32: No one's ever seen the on toss the universal abstraction the transcendent nature. That's what we're talking about here.
04:22:38: That's not how God's speaking What you're doing is you are going into a whole nother level of explanation to get out of the problem
04:22:46: You're saying look no one's ever seen the Spirit of God the Spirit and the essence of God Wow So what you're doing is you're saying look
04:22:56: I admit the text says that God the Father Manifested because you said it's a theophany and a theophany is a manifestation of God So they saw
04:23:05: God the Father, but in order to get out from the problem now It's the essence of God and his spiritual nature form that wasn't seen.
04:23:12: That's not what the text is talking about What you've done is you have admitted you can't answer the question
04:23:19: So you have to restructure all of it in order to make it fit Let me also say that you
04:23:28: Responded when I asked you is God the Trinity you said yes God is the Trinity and then when
04:23:33: John says no man has seen God at any time you There's the father
04:23:43: I said it means what it means in context you don't want to Sometimes God is the
04:23:50: Trinity and sometimes he's not with it. Look What look I'm telling you a very simple look.
04:23:56: I'm trying to tell you Sometimes the word Sometimes the word is in reference to the
04:24:02: Sun Sometimes the word is in the reference to the Trinity. I'll prove beside that and and and prove to me
04:24:10: Watch this watch this to me in the Old Testament. That is the pre -incarnate
04:24:16: Christ. I watch this I challenge you to but of the Sun he says they throw no
04:24:22: God is forever and ever is The Sun referred to as God Yes, the
04:24:27: Sun is referred. The Sun is the pre -incarnate God. Yes, and I ask you a question Do you think that I would think at this point that God means a
04:24:34: Trinity? Yes, so you think I'm a Quiet, that's your exact yet for a second and let me finish
04:24:46: You're so rude, this is what your oneness does to you
04:24:53: Listen, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen. Listen, I'm going to check I Listen to me not get personal and if I'm getting personal then
04:25:03: I apologize, you know what you're right You're right. You got me on that. You're right. I apologize.
04:25:08: You're right. Okay now but of the Sun he says
04:25:15: Notice what this is going on God after he spoke long ago with fathers, etc.
04:25:21: He is a radiance as Jesus For to which of the angels did he ever say you are my son?
04:25:28: The he as a Trinitarian we would say this is the father because it's the father -son relationship
04:25:35: You are my son. This is what a Trinitarian would say today. I've begotten you and again, I'll be a father to him
04:25:43: Right, which is the he the father will be a son father and son
04:25:49: Verse 6 and when he again brings the firstborn into the world He says let all the angels of God worship him the he in the context is the father that says worship him
04:25:59: Who's the son and of the angels? He the father says who makes his angels wing winds and his ministers a flame of fire
04:26:09: But of the Sun he that's the father says your throne Oh God As a
04:26:15: Trinitarian we would obviously Understand that this is the quote from Psalm 45 6 that the word
04:26:21: God here is not a reference to the Trinity We wouldn't say that we are clearly saying that he is the context of the father
04:26:29: Speaking to the Sun saying the Sun is divine That's what we would there you go right from the text
04:26:38: I've shown you that there's place where we would from the text say God's in reference to the father.
04:26:43: Not the Trinity you said Yes, it does right there. Do you see that?
04:26:51: Let us let us address The Old Testament verse that you mentioned you mentioned that God that the
04:27:00: Person who was revealed to Abraham Isaac and Moses was the pre -incarnate Christ But But in Hebrews 1 3 it says
04:27:09: God who at sundry times in different ways Spoken time passed unto the fathers by the prophets as in these last days spoken to us by his son
04:27:18: And unfortunately Matt thinks that the Sun spoke or the Sun appeared in the Old Testament But this was clearly says that It was the father himself who spoke in different ways and and and that's how they saw him.
04:27:31: They saw him in different In different the often ease that doesn't mean they saw his eternal state about About the your throne of God by throne of God verse that you brought up That that's exactly my my problem that I have with the
04:27:48: Trinity if you insist that you believe in one God and yet you have a Member in the
04:27:53: Godhead who's addressing somebody else who's also God And you do not buy any meaningful since you do not have one
04:28:00: God left you have more than one God and unfortunately Matt and everybody else will want to surpass that because obviously they want to conform to biblical language
04:28:12: But yes, they believe in one God and it's commendable that you think that you believe in one
04:28:17: God but it's definitely sad and and this that that your mental image of Okay So you we've already gone over this you misrepresent the issue.
04:28:32: You've failed in many accounts to represent and answered adequately now I got a question for you here because I want to get going.
04:28:39: My voice is starting to go I've been on this for four hours. I already did an hour of radio It's okay. I did an hour of radio, etc.
04:28:46: Now and oh two hours of radio Two hours of radio. I've done two plus four.
04:28:53: Now that's six hours. My voice is starting to go so I need to get going now You're a one is Pentecostal, right?
04:28:59: Let me just ask you a couple questions. I'm not gonna trap you I'm just gonna find out where you're at. Do you believe baptism is necessary for salvation?
04:29:08: Yes, I mean that okay, do you believe has he baptized in Jesus name to be saved yes
04:29:16: Do you also affirm that Jesus bore the sin of everybody who ever lived He bore the sin of the whole world, but automatically the whole world is not
04:29:27: Okay, I'll tell you what we can do We can have a discussion if you want on what is necessary to be saved have your sins forgiven
04:29:35: We could talk about baptism We can we can certainly do that Matt.
04:29:41: I truly appreciate your request, but I think There are a lot of Areas in the oneness versus Trinity subject that I would like for you to respond to But I'll tell you what you done
04:29:54: I mean, yeah If you want to list out a bunch of questions You can email them to me and then later when I have some free time
04:30:00: I can try and answer those reproduce them and put them on the karm website with answers to them
04:30:08: Okay, we can we can also do that yeah and I can also I mean Give it up to you, but I I would certainly like to look forward to another discussion.
04:30:19: I hope it is known as Ugly as it seemed it was ugly.
04:30:26: Yeah, but I think you are so lost and deceived Yeah, and I think
04:30:42: Every Christian So if you are willing to talk Soteriology the doctrine of salvation.
04:30:49: I'd love to talk about that with you I've rarely get to talk about that with anybody in oneness who's halfway competent and you're more than halfway competent see
04:30:57: III certainly I mean I the request is is really great.
04:31:03: Let me also admit that Although I do know a lot of the salvation debate or other topic
04:31:11: Not that I don't want to pursue you but I would also humbly admit that I that I that there isn't a 100 %
04:31:21: Clarity that I myself have on it when I say 100 % clarity. That means that there isn't though I wouldn't think of myself as hammering a certain thing
04:31:31: You know Well, here's my premise a false. God brings a false
04:31:36: Christ that brings false doctrine of salvation Okay Because I believe you have a false
04:31:46: God If a false Christ and a false doctrine of salvation and nature and extent of the atonement and that's why you require
04:31:55: That's that's that's okay. I mean if you ask me how to be saved, yes, you have to be saved in Jesus name
04:32:02: Let's cover it sometime but I want to get going because it's late my voice Sure.
04:32:08: Sure. Sure And thank you for your participation. Yeah, I think it's nice to get your time on it because I really
04:32:16: Believe you are you are really engaged in several things. It's nice to have you
04:32:23: Sacrifice some time here and thank you for that. Yeah, I appreciate that Okay If you were to go to Are we not done yet?
04:32:41: Yeah, so I just want to ask one thing I'm gonna go if you were to go to here. I'm gonna type it in because I'm gonna be instituting something pretty soon
04:32:52: If you just go to karm .org forward slash debates, okay It'll bring you to a page.
04:32:59: My voice is Karm .org. Yeah, that's that's my website
04:33:08: Karm .org C -a -r it's right there in a text right here. Oh, sorry.
04:33:13: I was typing it out. That's all right You go there you're gonna see a list of Man my voice is starting to go you're gonna see a list of things
04:33:32: Pretty soon. I'm going to require to anyone who wants to debate me on anything has to answer the questions That are related oneness
04:33:40: If you click on that, you'll see the oneness questions Questions for oneness. Is that what it is?
04:33:45: Yeah If you want to Yeah, if you want to have a debate with me you want to talk with me and do this seriously
04:33:51: You got to answer the questions if you have a set of questions You want me to answer or do the same thing? This is so we don't waste time and I'll be expanding this list
04:34:00: I have a lot of people who want to debate me, but I spend so much time trying to define their terms It's a waste of time a lot of time
04:34:07: So I want people know the human nature death of Christ No, there's 50 happens to be 50 here, but I'm gonna be having more probably because Okay, I'm gonna be adding questions
04:34:27: I'm just saying that people all the time want to debate me and it's becoming more difficult to do all these debates
04:34:34: All these discussions and I don't know what they teach so I'm gonna pretty soon I'm gonna be saying if you want to have any serious discussion with me.
04:34:42: You got to answer these questions now tonight We just open thing. That's fine But you're pretty good.
04:34:48: Okay, you're smart But you're misled but I'm gonna be putting more questions in your own salvation as well
04:34:56: Because I want people to start answering so that it's not to trap them. It's like this is what you said And then let's work with it that way
04:35:03: I don't have to waste any time Everybody knows what I teach what I teach is written all over this website Okay, so I hear you
04:35:11: Matt. So you see you you have a pre I mean you you would
04:35:17: Debate a person only if they answer these 50 questions 50 or less or more I'm getting to that place where it's gonna be required.
04:35:25: So so so I'm gonna I'm gonna Consider I'm sitting 50 for now. Is that what you're saying?
04:35:31: No, you're different because I'm just letting you know that I'm gonna be doing this but I want to discuss salvation with you
04:35:37: I don't even have a section in here on on soteriology Okay, sure.
04:35:43: Sure. So Matt, we will bring it to a close. Yeah, I gotta go. Yeah, also
04:35:50: I will obviously try and answer these questions someday and if you want if I if I send them across to you and maybe if you gather some time we can obviously have a
04:35:59: Discussion or a debate whatever is convenient with you. And Yeah All right, sounds good, okay, thank you appreciate it