Trinity & Oneness Open Discussion, 9/1/2021

Opening Technical Setup and Invitation to Discuss the Trinity

So, September 1, so you have oneness trinity coming in and watching, and so people, people might be listening, and things to say to them, we can discuss that if you want to come along at the end, you can do that, and you can show how to witness to them.

A lot of times oneness people don't understand really the doctrine of the trinity. So what I'm going to do, I'm going to place the link, no sound, can you hear me okay? Let's see. Everyone okay now? Sorry.

If that doesn't work, I'll have to reboot my entire computer, it'll take me about two minutes. You guys can stay in here. So Carmen and Alyssa, I trust you two, is it better? Sometimes people get in, and they just hate me, and they say, oh, it's no good, and it really isn't.

It's so muffled. What I'm going to do, then, is reboot my computer, okay, and what I'm going to do, I'm thinking about possibility of just rebooting the computer coming back in here, and I think that's what I'll do.

And then if it works, great. If it doesn't, I'll shut the room down, and then reestablish it, and reopen it up, and put it in, put the new link information on Facebook, and it may just be what's necessary.

So what I'm doing right now is shutting everything down, if you guys can hear me, it's tolerable. Let me try rebooting the system, okay? A lot of times that helps, all right? And I have a fast... Now, it's closing.

I'm still closing stuff. It should be fine. Just let me know if it's working. That's what I'm hoping for. It sounds great. Oh, I don't know what to say. Someone said it sounded good. Someone said it doesn't.

It's what it is. We've got 21 people watching. So what I'm going to do is just stick with this. So how many... On a scale from 1 to 10, 10 being perfectly fine, and 1 being really bad, give me some numbers.

10 being really good, 1 being really bad. Okay? And hopefully, we'll get people who want to come in and have this discussion on Monday. So if anybody can... There, that'll fix it. Oh, I know what happened.

No, I know what it is now. Oh, I just learned something. No, it wasn't the mic. It was my settings. I had started this video a couple of hours ago, and it was in the waiting, and it remembered a different setting.

And so that's what the problem was. It remembered a different setting. And so I assumed that it updated the other settings, but it didn't. So now I got it solved. Sorry about that. It's what it is. All right?

It's what it is. All right. Come on, you guys. You got any questions, comments? You can get in here. You can talk. We can do whatever it is you want to do. I'm open to having a discussion on the Trinity and oneness.

If nobody comes in to discuss things with me, what I'll do is just talk about why oneness theology is bad. What? NASA doesn't know everything? You got that right. All you got to do is ask my wife. She'll tell you that in a heartbeat.

He doesn't know anything. That's how it works. It's a 10 now. Good. We're back. Yeah. My bad. I checked the settings. I actually checked it in the other thing, and it looked like it was good. So I'm confused.

But it happens. That's what happens sometimes. All right. Now, we're back. Everything's good. I'm waiting because I was hoping to be able to talk about oneness with people. I've got another debate scheduled on oneness.

Let's see. I want this debate. Another guy wants to debate. I just got so much stuff going on, researching COVID and some other things. There's the calendar right there. I have a debate. I'm looking on one of my debates set up, and that is when do I have that?

Okay. Someplace, sometime. I already moved it. I'll check on my phone later. Yeah, I do. I have another debate on oneness. There it is. On October 1st. Got it. Found it. All right. Okay. Well, look. If anybody wants to come in here, please have a discussion with me.

Feel free to do that. There's the link. You get right in. You'll need a microphone to have a conversation, and you don't have to have a camera. A camera helps. It's nice. Let me know. Interesting. All right.

Interesting. All right. Well, Asian Steve is in. That's me. Yes, it's me. All right. Are you oneness or Trinitarian or what? That's what I want to ask you. I am Indonesian.

My name is Steve. I have a bad English. I don't English. Not my native language. I want to ask two questions. First, if I have saved Jesus, the salvation of Jesus, but I don't have a full knowledge of a complete knowledge, the right knowledge of the Trinitarian of Athanasius, where am I going to go?

It would depend on what you know, what you reject, how long. And we can't really say for sure, because people can have different levels of understanding on different topics and still be saved, and yet be wrong.

If, for example, you were to say that Jesus is not God, and you just refused to believe that he was, then you're going to hell. I don't put the doctrine of the Trinity as an absolute necessity because people can believe in something that's not Trinitarian in their ignorance and still be saved, but eventually they'll come to a knowledge of that truth because God will work that truth in them, and then they'll be saved.

It will manifest that they're already saved, which is why they would believe the truth. There's some gray area in there. I'm a little bit more gracious about it than a lot of people who would say, if you don't believe in the Trinity right away, you're not saved.

Well, not necessarily, because it might be that you don't have a full understanding yet and need to talk about it.

Do you believe in the Trinity? I believe the Arius is Trinity. Not that I don't believe in the Athanasius Trinity, but I can describe it in my brain, in my logic, the Trinity of Athanasius. I can only imagine the Trinity of Arius.

Oh, no, no, no. Arius is false. Okay?

Arius is false. All right? Let me do something here. What I want to do is I will share my screen, and I'm going to go through a definition of God and the Trinity, if you guys don't mind. But I can do this, and I can email you this quote if anybody wants it.

This is something I'm using to teach on Patreon, and I'm going through an advanced study on the Trinity. And this is something that I have developed over the past year in my discussions. It started with atheists, because a lot of times atheists would misrepresent the doctrine of the Trinity.

And so what I would do is say, no, that's not what we teach. And so you can see what I do. I do a lot of work. I have outlines. This is what I do. I do stuff like this. I have outlines. I have stuff that I do in outline form, different colors that mean different things for me, and things like that.

And so I have them on Calvinism, science, philosophy, Catholicism. The outlines on the canon, slavery. It just goes on. I do different things. Atheism. And I'm developing one on oneness. But at any rate, so what I do is this is my apologetics, biblical apologetics.

And it was necessary that I define who God was in order for people to be able to debate it and stuff like that. And so I'll tell you what, Patrick, what we want is for you to come in and talk to me. If all you're going to do is post links, I'm going to ban you.

So if you post one more link, I'm just going to ban you. This is a discussion room. So please come in to talk. Now, if you want to do that, that's fine. Okay. And here's the link that you can click on.

And Patrick, you can come in. You can say the Trinity is false because and we can talk. But if you just come in and post links, I'm just going to ban you. I'm warning you. I'm going to kick you out. So I want you to have a discussion.

That's what this is for. Okay. So good. You know, it'll be polite discussion. Okay. But while you're trying to get in, let me just read this. There's only one God in all places in all time. There have been no gods before him.

There'll be no gods after him. He is the one and only uncreated, necessary Trinitarian being eternally consisting of three simultaneous and distinct persons. The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. The three persons share the same divine essence.

They call it the ontological Trinity, but express different functions in creation. We call that the economic Trinity. Neither person derives his substance from either one or both of the others. The Trinity is not comprised of parts, but is one simple divine being.

That's just I move this divine simplicity over to here. But anyway, the Trinity in the Trinity are unity and diversity, which are equally basic and mutually dependent upon one another. Clear my throat.

God is spiritual in nature, non-contingent, unchanging, transcendent, and sovereign. God has nothing against which he can be compared and defined. Therefore, he is self-revealed in creation, scripture, and Jesus.

He is the ultimate source of all truths, all actualities, and all potentialities. Goodness, mercy, love, holiness, et cetera, are revealed by him as an expression of his nature. Therefore, that which is good is known by comparison to God's nature, which is holy and righteous.

There is no condition in which the Christian God might exist or could not exist, since that would not be the God of the Bible. God's incommunicable attributes stress his transcendence, and his communicable attributes stress his eminence.

He created the universe as well as people. God is neither included in space nor absent from it. He does whatever he pleases and ordains all that occurs. He possesses infinite knowledge, wisdom, presence, and power that manifest out of his good and holy nature.

Since he is the ultimate standard of all that is good, he will judge the people, all people, that is. Those who have, by faith, trusted in the self-revealed atonement of Jesus, who is God in flesh, will be saved from righteous and eternal condemnation.

Those who have not will face righteous and eternal condemnation, will be saved from, yeah, okay. I may work on that, have eternal salvation with him. So I keep perfecting this. As I read it, sometimes I go, I could word that a little bit better in some areas.

So this is the same thing with scripture references. And so I'm still working on it. At least it means I just have scriptures to put in, and I'm doing some stuff. This looks like this is an older version.

It looks like something happened to it, because I remember doing all this before. So anyway, that's what I'm working with and the issue of the Trinity. And so I've been studying it, teaching on it for a long time.

Okay. So I was waiting for that guy to come in here. So if you guys are interested, come on in and give me a conversation. We can have a discussion. Pearls for Pigs. All right. So welcome, Pearls. How are you?

Don't hear you. Nope. Nope. Don't hear you. You have to work on something. Okay. Keep trying it. Nope. When I hear you, I'll tell you, but I don't hear you. Just keep working it. So who's the guy? Come on, Patrick Eccles.

Are you Patrick Eccles? No? Okay. Well, here's the link for Patrick to come in. He says the Trinity's false. Let's see if he can defend it. Still don't hear you. Are you on a PC or Mac or your iPhone?

Did you try turning the volume up? I can't hear you. Try coming back in. Okay. I'm not sure what to tell you. I don't have an iPhone, so I don't know. Okay. All right. Who's this? Kale, as in salad. Are you there, Kale?

Yes. Sorry. Can you hear me? Yeah. Oh, good. How are you doing? I'm all right. So are you Trinitarian or not or what?

Well, I'm not the guy that you were just speaking to. Okay. I am. So we've actually spoken a couple of times. Bear with me one second. All right. So, yes, we've spoken a number of times. All right. But, yeah, I'm actually not sure what I want to talk to you about.

Not sure if I want to discuss. Are you Trinitarian? I am an infinitarian. Okay. Let's see if the other guy can hear. Hey, Pearls, can you talk?

Can you hear me? Yes. Now I hear you. All right. Well, Pearls was in first, so let's go with him, and then we'll come back to whatever that was that you said you were. Okay. So, Pearls, welcome. How are you doing?

Doing all right. All right.

So, biblical cosmology. What do you think of that? I like it. Yeah. So, do you believe in the heliocentric model? Yes.

So, This is Trinity and oneness discussion, but I'll do this for another minute. Excuse me. I'm so sorry. I apologize. I didn't mean to. Are you a flat earther? No. Good. But, according to scripture, the earth is still.

The earth is what? Still. It says it's immovable. Yeah, and it's not talking about its position in space, but about its foundation of truth. What about the firmament? What about the firmament? Do you believe it's solid?

Like, No. The root word of it? No, because words can mean what they mean in context. It says firmament can be used in different ways, different things.

You pick and choose when you want to believe something's literal in the Bible, huh? No. Do you? Okay. No, I don't. Are you an atheist? I believe you can read the Bible metaphorically, seriously, literally,.

Allegorically. Okay. It's not made to just be one, because if it's just... but I agree with you that my car works. Yeah. Yeah. I agree about my car. What else about my car you were saying? So, you think the sun is stationary, huh?

No, my car's not red. No, I said, do you think the sun is stationary? No, I said, my car is not red. Yeah. So, you believe... I'm just... all I'm doing is using your words metaphorically, symbolically, interpreting the way I want.

No, you're not using my words. I didn't say anything about your car, brother. You don't listen. You're not listening to me. You're not... you don't understand the point. If you're going to start saying that scriptures just can be interpreted basically any way you want, then I can interpret whatever you say any way I want, because what you're saying is there's no way to know what the scriptures really teach.

If that's the case... No, I never said that. Listen, listen to me. If that's the case, that's what you're leading to. It could be this, this,.

This, this, this. Then I have to ask you questions. I'm leading to the truth of the scripture, and you're ducking it. You're ducking your head from what scripture really says. Can you hold on a second, please?

The earth is still, and the luminaries revolve around us, and there's a firmament to divide the world from the world. Is that what you believe? That the earth is still... Does the sun go around the earth?

It makes a circle above the earth. That's what I... You're a flat earther. You're a flat earther.

You believe in a flat earth. No, I'm a Christian, brother. Okay. Do you believe the earth is a sphere? No. Okay. Is it flat? Earth is a plane of inertia. That's what planet earth means, brother. I can tell you have no clue what science really is.

Yeah? Why don't you tell me the five steps of science, brother?

And there aren't any five steps of science. You are a fucking idiot. Goodbye, dumb idiot. Yeah, you... Look, you know, this is... There aren't any five steps of science. That guy's just a moron. Science has different ways of being looked at.

It's based on philosophical assumptions, and you can't say there's just five. Some say five, some say seven, some say three. And I was just trying to show the guy, but he was just intolerant and wouldn't listen, that no, it's not an exact number.

There's different ways of defining the scientific method, which is what he was confusing with the issue of what science is. The method is different than the science. So he doesn't understand. And so I was trying to correct him.

Then he starts cussing and leaves. So this is the kind of mentality that we have to deal with? No, I don't think so. And he has lost his right to come back in. Oh, no, that's Cale. Yeah, Cale, here you go.

You are, you're all right, Cale. Hey, sorry, I got bumped off there somehow.

That's all right. That's all right. Well, I want to, so hold on real quick. We spoke about two weeks ago. We spoke about transcendental presuppositionalism, and we spoke about Eastern orthodoxy. Do you briefly remember our conversation?

We had a very cordial conversation and I would like to continue that. I don't want to, whatever that guy just did is inappropriate and unnecessary. Yeah. And foolish. That shows us how foolish he is. Absolutely.

So I don't, I barely remember something like that. I talked to so many people, you know, sure, sure, absolutely. Yeah. So, yes. So we had a very cordial conversation. I don't know if this is appropriate because you said it's a oneness versus a Trinitarian.

That's what we're supposed to be talking about. Right, right. Well, it's, it's in that vein. So I have a unique theology and I am what you would consider an infinitarian. So where I believe that the Godhead is not limited to three persons, but rather that every persona is, whether you want to look at it as a, as part of the theatric union, or if you want to consider the essence instantiating every persona that exists.

Okay.

Let's get some terms defined. Sure. So are you talking about God? Yes. So let's define your God. God is how many persons? Every person. You mean every human being? Yes. Okay. God is every human being.

Okay. Anything else? Is he plants and rocks? Well, so, yes. Okay. Plants and rocks. So don't limit me, don't limit me to pantheism. I am. I'm not. Okay. Okay. Go ahead. Continue with your. Just going with where you're at.

So every human is divine. Plants and rocks are also divine. Is God eternal?

Or does he have a beginning? No, the essence of God is not finite. No. Does he have a beginning? No. Well, I mean, if he's not finite, he wouldn't have a beginning. Finite can have different meanings, different contexts.

Oh, I see. I see. Yes. So he, uh, is, he transcends temporality while being absolutely eminent throughout it as well. Okay. So he's eternal. Uh huh. And ever present. Okay. Correct. All right.

Is he personal? Uh, well, I mean, by definition, if he's every persona, he would have to be personal. Yes. So every persona has its own mind. Uh,.

Every, every, every mind that every persona has is a particular to the universal, infinite, omniscient mind of God.

So you have, uh, different personal people like you, me, others are, are, we're gods? Uh, no, we are God, singular, not God.

Okay. So how many, how many, uh, okay, well, let's define personhood. Sure. Personhood is. So good. This is a great place to begin because here's, here's where we're going to first diverge. I mean, obviously we've diverged already, but, uh, so you would root subjectivity within personhood, whereas I would root subjectivity within essence.

Um, we can't do that until we define stuff. So what do you mean by person? Uh, I mean,.

So, okay. Uh, everything that is finite about us. So your mind, my fingernail is finite. So what do you mean? So your fingernail is a part of your persona. Your body is a part of your persona. Let's talk about personhood.

Sure. Okay. Personhood. I'm going to use those terms interchangeably. Persona. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,. We have to define our terms. If these are used interchangeably, there's no definitions.

So personhood, let's talk about attributes of personhood. Self-aware. I can't hear you. Yes. No. yes. yeah. So person is self-aware. Okay. Uh, yes, but in a particular sense, not in a universal sense.

So I believe that the essence is aware of itself as well.

Okay, so, wow, self-aware and can it communicate?

We're communicating now, so yes.

Well, what personhood is, can personhood communicate?

It's the vehicle through which communication, finite communication happens or illusory communication happens.

Okay, I think I'm gonna stop here and just say that you make no sense whatsoever. You have no way of validating what it is that you're saying. Your lack of definitions and specificity in the issues and the incongruity of how you put things together just demonstrates to me, you're clueless about the issues of logic.

But furthermore, where in the heck are you getting all this?

So I've spent a long time studying this. Studying it where?

Through personal experience. Okay, so your experience, by experience, you have anything that's not, wait a minute, do you have anything that is serious that we can take seriously, not just your experience?

Okay, I'm self-learned. So I would think that that's the highest level of education that you can get.

So for instance, I've read How do you know that? How do you know that? That self-learned is the highest level of education. Where'd you get that?

I mean, experience is better than self-learned. Experience is better than book knowledge, but I'll Wait, wait, wait.

How do you know experience is better than book knowledge?

Where are you getting all this? I just got done reading Van Til's Apologetic by Bonson. So I'm learning. I know what I'm talking about. No, you don't. So here, so, okay. No, it's because I disagree with you.

No, no, no. It's not an issue of disagreement. People could be rational and disagree. I have no problem with that. We just then discuss certain particulars. You are irrational. You're not coherent. God is every human being.

Let me explain. Why would I say, well, what's personhood? If you're gonna say God is every human being, I'm gonna start asking the issues of what your definition of personhood is, because it requires a focus of the mind.

But if you're gonna have multiple minds, how can you justify the universality of the transcendentals? Because they'd be abstract principles. But you'd have to have either unity of minds, which means it wouldn't be separate, or there had to be a pair of caresses, which means the essence is absolute divinity.

There's all kinds of problems that you don't even know about. I think I'm losing you somehow. Yeah, I'm talking logically. That's how you're losing me. No, you're walking. And so you're coming in and out of whatever.

But you don't understand Van Til. You don't understand Ponson. You don't understand these things. Yeah, you don't understand them. I cannot hear you. Okay. You're roboting on me. Roboting to you right now.

Can you hear me, Matt? Yeah, I hear you. Okay, so we need to have some, I've asked for oneness people to come in, and that's what I'm hoping for. So if oneness people, I'm gonna remove him because he's coming in and out, and now he's lost.

So there we go. There we go. Asian Steve, don't know if you're still there.

Salvation, Ignorance, and the Trinity

Okay, my last two questions, may I? Sure. So Arius died with no knowledge, no full knowledge, the full understanding of the Athanasius Trinity. Where is Arius now, heaven or hell?

Arius, if he did not repent of his false teaching, would be in hell for denying that Jesus was God in flesh, because Arius, Arianism, denies the deity of Christ.

So is he in heaven or in hell now?

No, he denied that Jesus Christ was God in flesh. So therefore, we would not say that he is in heaven because he denied an essential doctrine of the Christian faith. Okay. Okay, okay.

Okay, my last questions. Sure. The criminals beside Jesus Christ, the criminals who accept Jesus, did he accept Jesus as the king or God?

Well, you can't say, because the text doesn't say. He just said, remember me when you come into your kingdom. He was appealing to Jesus, and Jesus said, you'll be with me. And apparently that was enough for salvation.

That's what happened with Arius. Well, Arius had open denial of the deity of Christ. Arius, Arianism, Arius said that Jesus is a created thing, that the divine aspect wasn't divine, but he was created.

So Arius was a damnable heretic, which means that what he was teaching is damnable heresy. Okay.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Lep.

Okay. So you're, that's okay. So you're from Indonesia. Are you a Muslim? That's right. Are you a Muslim?

I, I think I'm a one. But I, I, I think I'm a one, because, okay, this is the last question. What is the criteria? How can I be, how can I curse someone? What is the criteria for, say, you are anathema?

Oh, what are the essentials of the faith is what you want to know, right?

No, no, no, no. When, no, when. Athanasius curse, curse Arius, he anathema Arius, what is the criteria for cursing someone?

He denied who Jesus was.

So far as I have read in Paul, the book of Paul and book of Peter, the criteria is those who are not love, those who don't love Jesus, he may be anathema. Anathema? Yeah, anathema. I can, I can claim that, I can claim that Arius not loving Jesus.

Yes, but yes, I can claim he don't have a full knowledge of serenity, but that's not, but I can curse him. Athanasius can curse him, can anathema him. Okay, Arius, I mean, Arius denied that Jesus was God in flesh.

Now Jesus says, unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins, John 8, 24. So Arius denied that, so Arius died in his sins. All right, that's, that's why.

Because, because here in Indonesia, Tunicallian and the oneness is cursing each other.

Well, the oneness, yeah.

Is cursing each other. Is the fruit that this is talking of?

No, oneness theology is not Christian. Oneness theology adds works to salvation, all right? They add works. So what I would, I'd recommend what you do, I'm gonna put, I'm gonna show you something here.

I'm gonna share my screen and let's see, get right into here, okay. Right here, go essential Christian doctrines, okay? What I would suggest you do is that you would read this. This is from scripture, all right?

And you can see where the statements are from scripture. This is not my opinion, this is what the word says. I'd read through that and then read through the secondary essentials. You have to understand this.

And then if you want, what you can do is go to Karm and then type in oneness, just type in the word oneness up there and hit enter and it'll take you to oneness Pentecostal stuff and the issues that are here with oneness and why it's false.

And you can do searches for the Trinity too and you can learn what the Trinity is biblically, okay? So there's an example of the Trinity chart. So that's what I would ask is to study it because your language, you're pretty good but it's a little hard to understand you because of your accent, but I'm not complaining.

But I would suggest that you read articles first so that you get an understanding of what Christianity teaches so you know what the essentials are and the non-essentials. And once you know that, you'll know why oneness is a non-Christian cult because it's not Christian.

Now they're gonna say, we're not Christian. Have the oneness come in here and let's talk. Because the Trinity is arrived, the Trinity, I'm gonna fix that. The Trinity is arrived at systematically, okay?

It's arrived at by looking at the whole of scripture which says there's only one God. And it says that the father's called God, the son's called God, the Holy Spirit's called God. And we go down and we have fellowship with each one.

Each one is said to be eternal. Each one has a will. Each one speaks. This is exactly how we arrive at the doctrine of the Trinity. Just like this, we say one God and there's three, father, son, Holy Spirit and they each have a will, they each speak, they each love.

Well, that's what we call persons. Therefore, there's three persons. That's it. That's how simple it is to come up with a Trinity. When the oneness say we Trinitarians are unbiblical, I say, well, show me.

I'm just showing you how it's arrived at right here. Is this wrong? And it's not wrong. Because there's the scriptures, has a will, the Holy Spirit. All of these are empowered by one and the same spirit who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

Or like, you know, the father speaks and a voice from heaven said, this is my beloved son in whom I will be pleased. The Holy Spirit speaks, you know, that's how the Trinity's arrived at. So when the oneness say we're false, this is what they have to refute, but they don't.

They don't ever refute it. And just as Melissa is saying, they also require baptism for salvation, which is not true. And I just spent an hour going over baptism stuff after the radio show today. I don't know if you guys caught that, but with someone.

So, you know, there's just, there's a lot there. Okay. Okay. All right. The next question.

I have many questions. All right. Can a Trinitarian person who's an anathema oneness person. Yes. And can the oneness person curse an anathema the Trinitarian person? Yeah, they can do it. They can say the words.

Is that the fruit of Jesus? Is that the fruit of sin? Absolutely. Yes. Uh-huh. Just because he don't understand the full knowledge of Trinitarian. Well, I said earlier.

That it depends on what they know, what they don't know, what they are rejecting, things like that. Okay.

Okay. Your answer is yes, they can, right? They can what? They can curse each other.

They, you don't understand. You don't understand what I'm saying. They can curse each other. It doesn't mean the cursing is valid. Anybody can curse and say, hey, you're wrong. Anybody can say the words.

It doesn't mean that. It's a different word. Saying you are wrong is different with curse. Yes. How about the pre-Nisian council? How about the Donatis, the Novatian? They all curse by the council, right?

You're hard to understand, I'm sorry. Say that again. Before Arius came in Nisian council, Nisian synod council, there's a group called Novatianism, Novatianism, Donatism, Novatianism. Donatism? Donatism?

Yes, right. Novat, yeah, Donatism and Novatianism. They all curse. Donatism and what? Novatianism, Novatian, Novatian. Novatianism. I don't understand what that is. N-O-V-A-T-I. I thought you had to spell it out.

N-O-V-A.

Sorry, it's very, it's difficult to understand you. So, Novatianism. Yeah, right. Okay. What about it? All right, so yeah.

They are being cursed, right? Yeah, yeah. So is that good for the church or what?

Okay, okay, you have to, okay. You're not asking the right questions because you don't understand the issues. You need to go read, go to my website and read up on Christian doctrine. You need to read.

You need to learn what Christianity is. Because your questions, you're telling me you don't understand what we're teaching. It's just not an issue of cursing.

Oh, okay, okay, okay. Okay, Mr. Matt, I don't understand. Are you baptized or un-baptized or Catholic or what? I'm a Christian.

Yes. I am baptized, yes. Okay. But baptism is not necessary for salvation, as oneness will say.

In history, the baptized and the un-baptized were being cursed.

So you Okay, okay, okay, okay, wait, stop, stop, stop, stop. You keep bringing up are cursed over and over, different things. I keep telling you, you need to go study the issues. It's hard to understand what you're saying.

I'm not following you. I listen and then you lead me down a road and it doesn't make sense what you're saying from what you've said. I think you need to study Christian theology first, okay?

Have you been to my website? Yes, I've been once and twice. And I've been in the Baptist church here, the Baptist church.

Okay, the Baptist church, hopefully there would be good, but you need to study what Christianity actually teaches. Okay, what the Trinity is, what salvation is, so that you understand why people are saying, you're going to hell.

If you read the essentials of the Christian faith, you'll see there are areas we can say that about. You're going to hell if you deny the resurrection, you deny that Jesus is God, okay? That's what's going on, okay?

Okay, Mr. Matt, I think I'm going to watch you on YouTube. Okay. And we love Jesus, and I love Jesus. I believe in Jesus, but I can, yes, I can accept the Athanasius Trinity, but I can describe it, but I love Jesus and I want to die and rise with him.

Okay, good. Okay, thank you very much, Mr. Matt. I am from Indonesia. I'm sorry if I have a bad English.

It's okay, I mean, I'm trying, but I have difficulty hearing people sometimes. I'm 64, and my hearing's not very good, sorry.

Okay, God bless, God bless, Jesus bless.

Okay, all right, well, God bless. All right, so Josh is in. Hey, Matt, how you going? It's going. I was hoping to look. One of these people told me they wanted to come in and talk. This is why he did this, and now one of these people don't come in.

I'm so tired of this kind of thing, that these people in their chat rooms, I'll say, well, let's talk. They go, okay, and they never do. What is wrong with them?

Are they afraid? Come on. I don't know. Hey, I just had a question regarding the doctrine of the Trinity. Obviously, before the New Testament, it wasn't a doctrine, it wasn't, Jesus was known as the Messiah, but we didn't know in what form, necessarily.

He was coming in, similarly, with the Holy Spirit, so you wouldn't have had a Trinitarian doctrine before the New Testament. Would you agree with that? Yeah. Would it be possible that there are other persons within the makeup of God that is just not mentioned or talked about by Jesus?