What is General Satisfaction of the Atonement? With Austin C. Brown DMW#241

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John Calvin didn't believe in limited atonement stick around Exploring theology doctrine and all of the fascinating subjects at the king

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Broadcasting from an undisclosed location dead men walking starts Well, hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of dead men walking

00:35

I'm your host Greg Moore as always you can find out more about us at DMW podcast Dot -com social media dead pot dead men walking podcast and of course

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X Twitter X real DMW podcast Welcome back to another episode good to have you here.

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John Calvin didn't believe in limited atonement What is that all about? Well, we had a brother on his name is Austin Brown. He's a churchman husband father three

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He's been in the PCA the RPN CNA He's an author He studies theology does a lot of online gaming too.

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We didn't talk about that too much though But he believes in general satisfaction of the atonement. He believes in an election

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Predestination he's not Arminian. He's reformed, but he doesn't believe in limited atonement and That I found that very interesting and when you go back and kind of look at some of the

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Reformers including John Calvin Many do believe that he believed in general satisfaction in the work of the atonement as well

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So we talked about that and I told him hey, I'm a limited atonement guy, but I understand your position

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What do you think about this? What do you think about that? We talked about 2nd Timothy 410. We talked about What does it mean in?

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John 3 16 and John 3 17. He gave us a little historical context of General or universal satisfaction of the atonement.

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We made it clear. We're not talking about Universalism everyone saved everyone, you know comes to know

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Christ. That's not what we're talking about Specifically what was it that Jesus died for and rose again?

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What did his blood accomplish? What did his atonement accomplish and who was it for? So very interesting episode.

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I probably ran about 40 minutes I had I needed to be out of there at a certain time probably could have went longer, but I think it was a very concise theologically packed

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Episode where we did not mince words. We didn't waste time He also at the end of the episode which

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I always ask gave us his theological Journey to of where he came from and how he landed on his views

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Which I always find interesting with just about every guest that I have on what their journey is through that because it's always interesting to me when we have two brothers in the

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Lord looking at the same verse same chapter same book and Come away with two different systematic theologies or two different doctrines out of that and we go

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How do we get there? And what are your reasons behind that? So Very good episode with Austin Brown the next voice you hear will be well the next to you here will be him and I Talking about general satisfaction.

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Here we go So Austin Austin Brown nice to meet you in I guess this isn't in person but online

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Which is the second best thing we can do right? Yes, I guess I'm a fellow dead man walking, right?

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Yes, you are. I think we're all according to Ephesians to dead men walking dead in our sins and trespasses

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But by the grace of God, we have been raised to high and priestly places just like Christ So, yeah,

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I want to talk about universal satisfaction because I kind of know of this I'm not an expert in it

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This seems to be one of your passions I've watched you debate online and have discussions and go on podcasts with this and it's really kind of In opposition to limited atonement and for those listening to we're not talking about universalism

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We're not talking about everyone goes to heaven. You know, not we're talking about universal or general satisfaction of what the actual work of Atonement was what it did what it accomplished and I want to have you on to talk about it

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So before we do that, can can you give us a little just personal background though? Like you married kids like kind of what you do a little bit of your testimony

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We like to get to know our our guests here a little bit on the yeah I think of myself as a husband.

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I'm a father of three a Churchman I've served as a deacon in the

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RPC na I've served as a ruling elder in the PCA. I love to write

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I've written various books Love studying theology Movies and competitive online gaming.

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I just I've been playing games since like four years old I had the Coleco vision and it's just never stopped

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All right, okay, what kind of books are you writing Some theology So one like one for example is called the case for utter hopelessness

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Why atheism leads to a yielding despair and it really is my book and I'm serious when

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I say this that if if I 100 % believe that atheism were true. I was true.

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I would I would kill myself and this book is a defense of that choice I've written on Satan's fall

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I'm a mailman So I've written about being a mailman some novels and then of course my my my cheeky recent book a boisterously reformed polemic against limited atonement

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Okay. Yeah, we'll link that all up to so if you guys are listening or watching anywhere It'll be linked up.

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You can click through that and if you want to purchase that peruse his collection, we'll do that I've always found to you know atheist atheism really is depressing because it even removes like the common graces of God the the beauty of creation and in the majesty of that to where You know

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I believe even you know We are without excuse Roman says right like even the unbeliever that shakes their fist at God Still has some proofs of God still can look at us and go.

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Okay something created this right? I'm boiling it down to a very basic form, right, but it'd be so depressing

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They just you know, we're all just what a bunch of stardust and flesh bags floating around with no, right

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But no purpose no moral standard right like it's all chance and you go man, that's depressing

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Oh big -time like all my moral denunciations Really mean nothing. They're just preferences

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I'm just voicing preferences and and and just the thought of eternal nothingness awaiting you

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Like if I could just flip a switch right now, and I'm just off forever Like yeah, that's that's crushing to the soul

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Yeah, I guess their argument would be though that's how it was before you were born and you had no awareness of it sure

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No, your basis argument the comment Grant that I wouldn't care in the least but thinking about that right now is just a horrible thought sure

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All right. So let's get into Universal satisfaction or sometimes

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I hear general satisfied. What term do you use for that? Yeah, I'm gonna speak

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Universal satisfaction because I mean colloquially you could you could say unlimited atonement But that is so bound up like it's almost like the

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Armenians have the quarter on that term Yeah on that phrase. And so if you say unlimited atonement, then people are gonna go

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Oh, either you're an Armenian or you believe in universalism or something like that. So yeah. Yeah, so we go to a universal satisfaction

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All right. So I'm someone who has a basic let's say I'm someone who has a basic understanding of the doctrines of grace

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Even from the Calvinistic or the Arminian side Because we have what we have reformed guys that listen

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I have a lot of Pentecostals and charismatics that listen so you're talking to a wide audience here So can you give us the definition in if they have a basic understanding of?

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Limit assuming of a big basic understand limit limited atonement in Arminianism Calvinism kind of give us the the kind of the foundational definition of what universal satisfaction is

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Right the key question in the debate over the extent of the atonement is this

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For whose sins did Christ suffer? okay, if a person says

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I Think Christ only suffered for the sins of the elect alone. Well, then you're gonna fall into limited atonement camp if you say

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I think Christ suffered for the sins of all mankind You're going to fall broadly in some in some flavor under universal satisfaction

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Okay. So yeah that you got to that quick. I thought we were gonna go another three to five minutes on that definition

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Yeah, I mean we Yeah, so you would put those in those two camps then of really only there being universal or Those are the

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Either right because because the logical choice here is either Christ died for the sins of some men or all men

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Right, like there's really no other It's either some or all right. So we have to make a you have to make a logical choice steering one of those directions and precisely that is the crux of the debate that began in the you know 16th particularly the 17th century.

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That's that's when all this really kicked off and became a real thing So are you Calvinistic in your?

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Systematic theology or not? Yes, you are Yeah, I would subscribe to I would subscribe happily to like the canons of Dort Okay, which is which is what the five points are supposedly based on Okay, so you would probably be taking that out a lot of tulip though then correct you you would you consider yourself a four -point

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Calvinist as they say, I don't even like using the three and four point but yeah, see that's what's here

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This is what's interesting. So I have next to me The the creeds of Christendom, you know by shaft

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It's a great little thing if and if I open up to the second head of doctrines the second head was actually on the atonement, you know, it's not like the

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The TUL It isn't a perfect one -to -one correlation what they did with tulip, okay, so this is under the second head of doctrine

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You know if you look at like article 6 listen to this and Whereas many who were called by the gospel do not repent nor believe in Christ, but perish in unbelief this is not owing to any defect or Insufficiency in the sacrifice offered by Christ upon the cross

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But as holy to be imputed to themselves. So you have statements like this that What most people don't know is when

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Dort was being written you had Some Calvinists who were let's call them high

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Calvinists who would hold to a strict limited atonement They would say no. No, Jesus only suffered for the sins of the elect full stop

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And then you're gonna have other people like Usher or Davenant or these different figures particularly from the

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British delegates Who are like no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you don't know There is a universal satisfaction going on here and we hold to election and so those two people were kind of battling it out over the language of Dort and They basically agreed upon a consensus statement that allowed both of them to sign on in good faith

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So it's I would say it's deliciously ambiguous And so in that sense, do I hold to all five points of Dort?

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Well, yes, so in that sense, I'm a five -pointer Okay, so for me though, and I'm just wrestling through my head some

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Wondering how you make this connection for me It's almost like that, you know in under the doctrines of grace or tulip is you want to say?

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The limited atonement kind of hinges kind of foundation for me of all the other points if you kind of pull the rug out of Limited of took a limited atonement and then say well his the satisfaction was for all the work on the cross

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What Christ did his blood is? potentially You know could save everyone

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Well, then I kind of feel like the other The other tenants crumble behind that when we start talking about predestination and God's sovereignty and and all that So am

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I seeing that wrong? I'm sure you've heard that objection before. Yeah So, how do you square that? Right.

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Well, let's make a interesting historical observation first Okay, almost all of the early reformers to the man held my view and I think almost without question.

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So did Calvin without question men like Ursinus Who was behind the

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Heidelberg Catechism a reformed confession? He held it obviously Luther held it

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Zwingli held it musculus held it you go down like Charles Hodge held it very clearly

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Jonathan Edwards Dabney, you know, you have Really respected names who hold this view.

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So let's just it would be very odd if I mean nobody questions there.

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Let's say Predestinarian convictions right like shows are really established.

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So it would be very odd for that argument to be true Given the fact that so many men who held it didn't see a problem with it now

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I'm not saying there couldn't be a problem. I'm just saying from a historical perspective It is I would just say it's a it is a little naive to just Press that on me when

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I mean my goodness a lot of big names held it Yeah, I'm not saying

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I'm questioning them or you I'm just saying I guess then how did they how did they squared? I'm not a church history scholar

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I bring people on every week that are much smarter and more intelligent than me and then I just ask some questions I don't know and I've always said this podcast going on five years has been very selfish in that way

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You know, I get to have guys on and have fun discussions and learn. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

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I go. Yeah, it's mostly for me So so how so how are those squared I guess because when you do some reading of Calvin There's some places where you go.

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Yeah, it seems like he's saying satisfied for all And like you said

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Jonathan Edwards as well So when we look at kind of the limited atonement camp where they say look at predestined from before the foundations of the world

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Some for some not against not unto our own doings because the freedom of God can choose whom he wants to choose

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And then we also have okay a general satisfaction that says the work on the cross Was and let me get this right it was

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I mean, is it is it more? Arminian and saying it's potentially for everyone

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But only those who choose is that I mean, I mean, I wouldn't be I wouldn't there's a certain sense of potential which that's

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Perfectly fine. Then there's another sense of potential that might hint at certain like Libertarian freewill assumptions, right?

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So, you know as we but but you know, I'm saying so Back up and give a big picture and just like here.

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Here's how I would see these pieces fitting together with like predestination so on the one hand,

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I Think the Bible is full of like you have generalities and specificities

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Meaning like God has a general love for the world and there's a special love for the elect There's common grace for the world and there's like common or special grace for the elect

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There's a common call a general call and there's an effectual call. There's general revelation special revelation, etc, etc

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I think that is also true with the Atonement and so there is this sense in which

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Christ Did all that was necessary for the sins of the whole world. He's of infinite value he really did substitute on behalf of humanity such that there really is an objective provision for Everyone there really can be something objectively offered and something objectively

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Rejected okay, so then you go well, okay, but how do you square that with predestination? Okay Well, that would be that John 3 16 kind of love and kind of love expressed in the

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Atonement But it's also true that as the gospel goes out to humanity who you know

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You and I would agree. Let's just say that they have a a particular stubbornness regarding their autonomy

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And they're like no. Thank you. I like my autonomy. I don't think I'm not that bad I don't need you, you know, they raise their fist against God all of humanity does that God?

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implores them to repent Commands them to repent he does that for all but there are some that he especially

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Gets a hold of if you will he turns the lights on he grabs them by the lapels he knocks them down on the

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Damascus Road as it were and That would be the the particularity or the special element like I'm going to infallibly imply the

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Apply the Atonement to you by bringing you to faith. That has been my plan before the foundation of the world and it will

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Instantiate in history. So so and then I'm gonna keep them right perseverance of the same so all these things can work together

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Okay, so this might be a crude Analogy but the way I'm hearing it in my mind you tell me if I'm wrong.

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So there is a There is a bucket full of mud and pebbles and we can't see any of the pebbles the

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Atonement allows all the pebbles to be cleaned off and in kind of raised to the top and then

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God comes down and Chooses which pebbles he wants. So there's a general satisfaction of the yes

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Not that God needs that satisfaction But you're saying the general satisfaction of the Atonement allows even the elect to be elect or no

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Well, I mean the election the election of God is part of a much larger plan that includes

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Christ Infallibly, he's gonna get his sheep. But it's the key thing here.

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Is that is did Christ do something? For the sins of the non -elect

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Limited Atonement is gonna say no they did not my view is going to say well, yes, they did because it's the saddest

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We're going to differ on some and this is where you start to get into the weeds Like normally the limited

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Atonement guy is gonna go. Hey, man. I think your view leads to double jeopardy Right, you can't you you can't have

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Christ dying for some money and and then they get punished later or they're gonna come up with like what's called disharmony in the

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Trinity arguments and things along these lines and A person's gonna have a long back -and -forth over texts and concepts and you're gonna wash out on one side or the other but fundamentally to your point either

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Yeah, your bucket analogy. Yeah, sure. I'm yes Well, I guess what I'm not you cleaned up I guess

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I guess what I'm getting at is So what is so from the the universal satisfaction or general satisfaction view

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What what is it that? Christ Atonement did for them Right.

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Is it specifically? Yeah Right. So you could see there's a limited

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Atonement guy says absolutely nothing which I know a lot of a limited Atonement guys go Sorry, we still preached everyone because we don't know who is elect but that did absolutely nothing for that guy

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That's the Conclusion, right. So so what is what are you saying? Jesus's Atonement did for the one who never believes and is not saved yeah, and I think a similar question and I'll answer it but let me come about it from a back door a

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Similar question could be asked with like the Day of Atonement in Israel Because obviously the Day of Atonement this the highest of all days was done for all the people it was done for the nation and so in a very real sense propitiation was made for all the people but Leviticus 23 and other places you see that.

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Oh wait, what makes that? When does that apply? well when they afflict themselves they fast and they

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Repent and believe right like so you you can have this sense in which yes

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Christ really does do something on behalf of humanity. Let's call it a provision right like it'd be like looking at the bronze serpent and going was there healing in the bronze serpent even for the

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Who were bitten and didn't look I would say well, yeah Yeah, of course in the same way that what

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Christ did on behalf of humanity is of infinite worth What was suitable for one man is suitable for a trillion, you know worlds of people.

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So in that sense, maybe the best word would be just call it a a Provision is there there's something objective a real

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Savior stands there Saying come to me you you will have eternal life through me okay, so So there's a there's a possibility there, but then you still that you hold to election as well though.

23:06

That's right, correct. Mm -hmm So it so the Atonement gives every single person the possibility

23:12

But unlike the Armenian you would say God elects instead of it being based on maybe someone using

23:18

God first right because Let's think about the nature of an offer

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Yeah, so You know, this is such a simple analogy But if I offer you a million dollars,

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I have to have a million dollars in order for it to be a legitimate offer, correct Correct.

23:37

Yes. Okay. I mean everybody should agree with that like hey if I'm gonna if it's gonna be a sincere or legitimate offer

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I gotta have a million dollars to offer you a million and I think the same is true with God's offer of salvation to all of mankind

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Christ had to do something in terms of a provision such that he can genuinely offer it to any particular person now where the quote -unquote irresistible grace and total depravity come in is

24:08

If I let's imagine you're a anti -vaxxer too, I mean you you are a full -on well, let's not make it

24:15

Let's not make it personal. Let's just imagine some guy by name a Brock who is an anti -vaxxer to the full hilt

24:21

He will not accept any vaccine smallpox anything and a doctor offers him the smallpox vaccine

24:30

That offer is still legitimate Even though he knows that the act the anti -vaxxer is gonna no matter what just turn it down and similarly with the gospel

24:38

God is sincere and true with his offer

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Because it is grounded in something real and what Christ did but men in their stubborn rebellion refused to repent it and Refused to accept it and it's their fault and you can hold them certainly accountable for that But some men he's going to overcome their unbelief and bring them to a point where they're like, yeah, what was

25:02

I doing? I'm an idiot. Yes, I'll take Christ right, so what are some of the historical

25:10

Where did we start seeing this and maybe you don't know the answer to this question, but I'm interested because I don't know

25:16

Where did we start seeing? kind of that splitting of hairs between or the discussions of what actually

25:23

Christ Atonement did Limited Atonement verse, you know universal satisfaction Where did that where do you really start seeing that in church history where it not necessarily divide but people going?

25:34

Hey, we've got to figure this out or there is a difference here Yeah, right like in all in all sincerity and I really

25:42

I don't think anybody would dispute this that the church for the first 1 ,500 years

25:49

Believed that Christ died for the sins of all men so they would affirm universal satisfaction.

25:54

That was just the view I mean there was like this monk got chalk and like the 9th century who?

26:02

Yeah, he held to a form of limited Atonement and he was condemned in a few

26:07

French councils, but I mean essentially no one held it until You have the

26:14

Arminian Calvinist debate and you have Theodore Beza one of Calvin's, you know famous students

26:20

He tightened this up. And so then you have Theodore Beza and like John Owen Francis Turretin Really popularizing this

26:31

And that's really when it began to take hold is, you know, the late 1500s basically

26:36

Okay yeah, so I guess for those listening to if we're making a distinction between Limited and in general really to my ear and tell me if I'm wrong really the only difference is

26:52

God's election because the the Atonement has satisfied whatever floor standard

26:57

I need to be able to For it to be effectual for the Atonement to be effectual every single man

27:06

Throughout history has had that same opportunity with the death of Christ and resurrection and the difference is then the election of God Overcoming that however, we want to phrase it overcoming the will of man or whatever

27:19

Is that will work and in there's many reformers that believe that Yeah. Yeah, you put your finger on it

27:25

Like you could say election or you could just say what is the intention of God? You know on the one hand the one intention would be a

27:32

John 316 kind of intention, you know, whosoever. I love the world I'm given this as a bronze serpent as it were anybody can look anybody can be healed

27:41

But I've also got this kind of John 6 or John 10 or John 17 Intention right where it's like no.

27:48

No, no my my sheep hear my voice and they will follow me I will bring them to me. I will raise them up.

27:54

And so yeah, you're right the distinguishing element in In on my view is the effectual intention of God and so I'm sure you've heard this this is a famous formula and it was back in like the 12th century

28:09

I believe this one. Yeah under Peter Lombard He was like the famous systematic theologian of the day and he came up with this phrase, which is

28:18

Christ died sufficiently for the sins of all men But efficiently for the sins of the elect

28:25

Right and then Aquinas like that Calvin like that a lot of guys have like that And so I think that's a good summation because it kind of captures both elements.

28:32

So he died sufficiently for the sins of all men But efficiently or effectually for the sins of the elect they are going to infallibly be brought to faith and saved

28:43

You know since you brought up John 316 What do you think think of this because this really confused me so just to give you a little bit of my backstory

28:49

I was I was The people in the podcast pray hate that I repeat this to every guest I'm sorry, but You know just the same yeah very quickly brought up non -denominational church, but very legalistic, you know drum drum beats are bad

29:05

Don't look at anything secular. I mean it was very little in that sense, right? I was sat down when

29:10

I was 13 said hey We know you're taking piano lessons and you got a recital you're playing Keith Green you put this love in my heart

29:16

That's a Christian contemporary music song, you know, he's that's devil music and then you look back and go Keith Green.

29:21

Geez I mean, yeah, I didn't agree. I don't agree with him theologically But what a heart for the Lord anyway, then moved into in my early teens into a very

29:29

Pentecostal Church That was you know Bethel associated and gold from the ceilings and feathers and all that kind of stuff

29:36

And you can ask a question were you were you doing this alone or were you with was your family? Family yeah, so then ran from the

29:44

Lord shook my fist at him Rebelled for a good eight or nine years and I'm not gonna get into everything and how the

29:51

Lord brought me through that But then in my early 20s just went Okay, let's start just reading the Bible because I had questions as a young kid in church and I would never get good answers

29:58

You know, I remember going up to my youth pastor and this kind of this is kind of on subject So I'll tell it I said, why do people go to hell and he said well for unbelief

30:06

I go I just read in the Bible that That unbelief is a sin and he goes.

30:11

Yeah, and I said, but Jesus died for all sins, right? He goes. Yeah, and I go then why is anyone in hell? If Jesus right and I didn't know as a 13 year old, but I'm wrestling with universal satisfaction and limited atonement

30:22

Like I don't write and they just looked at me said good one and laughs and walked away, right? I easily Owens one of his famous arguments.

30:29

Yes Okay. So yeah at that point. I didn't even know I was arguing like a reformer. Maybe it was a little foreshadowing but My point being is

30:38

I went back to the Bible and I went let's just read the Bible because I feel like the two Major churches I went through my whole life.

30:44

We had we would a lot on tradition Well, this is the way it's always been done. This is how we our denomination does it right? So I start reading through the

30:50

Bible Start falling in love with the doctrines of grace and going I didn't know this was in here and one that stuck out to me

30:56

Was John 3 16 for God so loved the world that he gave his only son, right? I knew that verse growing up, but I never really read the second verse right behind at 17

31:04

It says for God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world But so that he said the world might be saved through him and at like a 23 year old 24 years old

31:13

I went oh, I'm a genius. Look what I found the word cosmos is used in 16 and 17, but two different ways

31:19

How do you understand that and then I realized you know people have been arguing about that for hundreds of years and I wasn't that smart at all, but That one that one kind of stuck out to me because we have people saying well the world means

31:30

Every single person everywhere for all of time and then the very next verse he's using world in a very

31:36

General sense and it's the same word. So to me whether I'm limited atonement in that I use that for limited atonement or general satisfaction.

31:44

I feel like either one of us kind of have to insert our own

31:50

Kind of systematic theology to go. Well, the word is used either differently there or the same there in in between 16 and 17 and that was a real struggle for me and I went

32:01

Oh, there's a lot of places in the Bible and look at I know the hermeneutic make sure we zoom out and right

32:07

We're not taking stuff out of context and all that Yeah but that was a place for me where I went in especially growing up in Pentecostal churches to where they will take one or two verses and they create a whole doctrine on that, right?

32:18

It's insane what they can get away with with one verse out of context So for you when you look at that and you see world being used in 16 and 17 right below it world being used seemingly two different ways

32:31

That that does that give any credence to the limited atonement guy who goes? Hey world just means the cosmos in general the the reality in which he created he loved so much

32:40

It doesn't mean every single person will he be generally satisfied by the atonement? What's your what's your thoughts on that when you hear that argument?

32:47

I'm sure you've heard it. Oh sure Yes, and and obviously this would be a this would be like an exegetical question, right?

32:53

And so yeah, of course the word cosmos can mean like the celestial earth, right?

32:59

like the physical earth again, but I think if I'm gonna be and I want to be just as honest and transparent as possible and I really mean this and I mean no no disrespect, but Are you the vast vast majority of New Testament scholars of even reformed types?

33:19

Understand the world to mean the mass of sinful Humanity, that's that's really what

33:26

John means when he talks about the world And I think I think if if we were to spend some time and go to chapter 1 and establish it and then even look here contextually

33:37

It's I Really? I mean if we looked at John Calvin's own Commentary on this verse.

33:44

It's it is really astonishing how clear he is that yes It's that God loves all men without exception, you know, and it refers to all of sinful humanity

33:52

I I just think it's if you walk through John and see his juices. It really should be

33:59

Without dispute in John Owen, you know He's the one who wrote the famous book the death of death and the death of Christ Which is arguably the most famous and well -known book arguing for limited atonement he took the view that the world meant the world of the elect and and a lot of reformed guys since then have

34:19

Frankly kind of found that embarrassing and they just have moved away from because it's so hard to yeah prove it

34:27

Yeah, it seemed that's what I'm saying. It seems like you mean in there He might even be injecting a little bit of his systematic in there to get to make that leap you know because I was very growing up in a church where we take where we took traditions and Verses either very literally or not literally at all based upon what we wanted it to say

34:47

I was very aware of that in my early 20s of really trying to go. Okay, I don't want to read into this you know, this is why it's what general or universal satisfaction is

34:58

So interesting to me because for a very long time I just went oh that makes sense because that's kind of the only it's either one or the other you're either

35:08

Armenian way over here and You're doing something to earn your salvation or your limited atonement

35:15

And you're one of those good reform boys over here that know that it's all of God, right? And there are many good reform guys.

35:21

Yeah, I just want to be clear, right? Sure, yeah, like, you know,

35:27

I named a bunch of guys on my side Look if I name a bunch of guys on the other side Like I said Beza Owen Turreton, and if you become move into the modern period it's many like sprawl

35:39

MacArthur Piper right James white like sure these these guys hold them in atonement

35:46

The crazy thing though, this is getting off subject, but I've also found the longer I live in my very short span of life though.

35:52

You also seem to realize there's kind of like theological Like eras if I feel

36:01

I really do feel like people move into a certain thing and they go Oh for the next 80 years, we're gonna you know, or 50 years or 100 years or 20 years even we're really gonna focus

36:10

This is what it all is and we finally figured it out and then 30 years later. They go I know let's go back to 250 years ago, you know, and you go, huh?

36:18

So we're all still figured so I really try to try to go to I don't want to be swayed by the popular guys

36:24

Or even the guys that have mentored me. I've had James white on the program met with him multiple times RC sprawl

36:30

I mean just totally ministered to me in my 20s and 30s and I wish I got to meet him But so great guys, right, but at the same time going we all have blind spots

36:41

So, yeah, I mean you're you're absolutely right and and right and so ultimately this issue if somebody's wrestling with this whether you or anybody else ultimately, you're gonna we're gonna all have to wrestle with text like this or text like first Timothy chapter 2

36:59

First Timothy 410, you know these you're gonna have to wrestle with these texts and if you if you come out going yeah,

37:06

I think I can Understand these in a way that's fair to the text that lets me hold the limit atonement then you're gonna go that way

37:15

But if you're like me and you're like, I'm sorry I think these texts are immovable objects that keep me having to affirm a

37:22

Universal aspect of the atonement then you're gonna then you're gonna fall in this camp Yeah, so in first first Timothy 410, which is

37:32

Yeah, I would say a tentpole for your possession for it is for the wise or this is

37:37

I'm sorry for it is for this Is why we labor and strive because we have set our hope on the Living God who is the

37:42

Savior of all mankind Especially of believers so that gives you your distinction right there of what you're saying, right?

37:51

For a limited atonement guy, that'd be pretty hard to overcome who is the Savior of all mankind and then there's you know

37:58

Kama there and I don't have the original Exit from me, but especially of believers.

38:03

So what is that? Especially of believers that so that would be yeah Yeah, exactly. Like obviously

38:09

Does Christ stand as the Savior of all men like the brand bronze servant like is he's he's a Savior to the world

38:15

Yes, but he is especially a Savior for those who are united to the hymn of faith hence, especially of believers

38:23

Right. Yeah, and I would go back to yeah first Timothy to one through six, but particularly six

38:30

I think is In the context. I think it's one of those texts for me.

38:35

That is just an immovable object I cannot get away from the fact that when he says all men

38:41

Like Christ gave himself as a ransom for all that he really Paul really does mean like no no

38:48

No, like all men like really all men Yeah so what so some might be listening and maybe the

38:56

Theology geeks or maybe not. Maybe just the person who just goes. Why does this even matter?

39:01

What are you guys talking about? Who cares does Jesus save he does do I believe on him and repent I do

39:07

Okay, so why do these type of discussions matter in the believers life and the unbelievers life is there benefit for For both or either or just one or the other?

39:17

Yeah, let's talk about Let's talk about the believer So on the practical side and I want to just camp here for just a minute because I think there are some important things to say

39:30

There is a tendency in the reform world to kind of lean hyper Hyper -Calvinistic like this is always a danger for reform guys is to get too extreme in your views and not have it like Hyper -Calvinism will say no

39:44

God does not love everyone in any sense or he doesn't desire the salvation in the non -elect in Any sense, you know, they'll they'll just they go they go too far.

39:54

So one of the fears is is that Your system can capture you and cause you a person to go extreme

40:04

That is just that's just a you know, a reality Yeah to these kind of things that you have to be careful to let the scriptures control your system and not your system control

40:13

The systems that'd be one and two is obviously just exegesis like you wouldn't we all want to be true to the text

40:19

We want to be we want the text to be Lord over us not we don't want to you know Be Lord over the text and you know

40:25

There's a practical element to there because I've been in Maybe you've had this experience like let's say you're in a

40:30

Bible study with some some Christians and there's a new Christian there and in this case,

40:35

I'm thinking of it was like a Sunday school class and the guy was on John 316 and he was a strong advocate of limited atonement and when he gets done he says so God does not love the world and Jesus didn't die for everyone and A new

40:52

Christian goes. I don't know when I'm reading it It doesn't sounds like it's saying that but I mean this guy has like degrees and he's been a

41:00

Christian a long time I guess I'm just gonna trust him And that guy can create you like a strange dissonance, you know in the minds of new

41:08

Christians that can always be Healthy and I'll mention one more one more would be

41:16

If my view is correct, let's just say if if my view is correct, then it would

41:21

I think put an exclamation point on God's Love for all his enemies, right all his human enemies.

41:30

Let's say it that way because I don't think price did this for the demons so he really does like You know

41:39

Paul and Isaiah will say God stretches his hands out all day long to a stubborn and rebellious people

41:45

You know There is this real sense in which God's like I do not delight in the death and the wicked but that they repent and live and he really does have a

41:54

Lavish love for rebels who deserve to be hung But he actually sends

42:00

Christ to die for them even those who will ultimately refuse which is just like compounding the condemnation if you think about it like they were did they deserve to be hung but how much more so if like They spurned the only remedy that God graciously provided for them

42:18

So I just think it puts like it it kind of puts a highlighter on the idea of John 3 16

42:25

Yeah, okay. So one more kind of question that popped into my head then so why?

42:31

if we believe in the in the predestination and election of God's elect why does

42:39

Logically following why does Christ's Atonement have to satisfy every single person?

42:46

Everywhere at all times what why even have that if God can elect and choose whom he will

42:53

Why do we have to have that base of satisfaction from Christ's Atonement from the one who won't believe right?

42:58

Well, and let's be clear. God didn't have to like all of its of grace. So yeah, let me just let me just be clear

43:05

I didn't have to die for anyone and he could have just died for some and it could have even been a smaller number

43:13

Than even it is like in other words all this is God's prerogative. He's the Sovereign Lord When you're on death row you can't demand anything from the president right to pardon you it's it's

43:27

If the president pardons you the president pardons you you can't go I demand it and I deserve this you're on death row

43:33

Yeah, and so right I guess I would just say is well Yeah, of course God didn't have to die for all men

43:41

But he had various purposes and one of the purposes one of the purposes is of course to show the exceeding graciousness of this to a rebellious world

43:53

To to on the day of judgment. It makes it makes the condemnation even brighter

43:59

Three I would say it does ground a universal offer. So when God offers salvation to let's call them a

44:08

Non died for right if he offers salvation to a non die for then it

44:14

It's kind of like this scenario where I said earlier if I offer you a million dollars And I don't have a million dollars and it makes my offer illegitimate or insincere or groundless and so God has

44:26

Because he's truthful and he is sincere and he and he does really mean it the offer is legitimate

44:32

Then there is a real backing behind that such that he really can offer it to every individual truly and sincerely

44:41

How can he offer it to every single person if he knows he's not electing them? Well in the same way think about the anti -vax analogy.

44:50

Okay. Let's say the doctor is dealing with an anti -vaxxer Yeah, his offer is still legitimate and real like I will give you the smallpox vaccine the smallpox mean

45:02

Smallpox vaccine will be effective for you if you take it and I'm offering it to you Even though he knows that guy is gonna go screw you doc

45:10

You're trying to poison me, right? Yeah, I guess but I mean it actually falls apart a little bit

45:16

I mean, he's not he's an infallible man that you know He's a fallible man that doesn't know a hundred percent for sure.

45:22

God is God sovereign overall. He's directed, you know Predestined from the foundations of the world.

45:28

So so for me, I look at that and I go it feels almost like if I'm offering some type of Way, but you truly have no way and I know you have no way and before the for you born

45:39

I knew you had no way that seems a little disingenuous to me If you if you believe from that limited atonement side, that makes sense.

45:47

Well, right you right you and I okay So just to be clear You and I anybody who holds the predestination is gonna have to struggle with that anyway

45:57

Right, I'm just saying there's an extra layer of challenge if you hold the limited atonement

46:05

So that's all I'm saying like yeah, we both have to grapple with that. But but Mike I guess my comeback would be

46:12

Well, I mean ultimately with anybody I would say I don't know take it up with God I'm not God, but sure, you know, the other reply would be yeah

46:19

I mean, we don't want to flatten God works through all kinds of secondary means like there's real secondary means and causes and and in the same way that someone could go

46:32

Okay, why have Noah go out and preach to a world that he knows? Are not gonna believe yeah anything in the

46:39

Bible Right. So at some point you do land on that So, you know why give the angels such glorious gifts if you know for certain that they're going to abuse them it can become demons

46:50

Right, like yeah. Yeah, so I think this just falls in the same category of yes, of course

46:56

God does know but for wise and holy purposes For all these different aspects to this tapestry coming together to make something more beautiful than had he not done it

47:07

Yeah, no, that's good. So as we wrap this up here, give it give us the final well before we do that Yeah, if you would indulge me, what was your journey like theologically?

47:17

I'm always interested in talking to guys and seeing where they're kind of would you grow up with but when you first were saved

47:24

What did you kind of believe and go through? I love that journey. We I just had on Who's the sociology 101?

47:32

Nate Layton flowers Layton flowers on and he talked about what took him out of Calvinism I'm a Calvinist and we talked for 40 minutes and it was awesome because he had a lot of great points of he was a

47:42

Calvinist for 10 years He goes these are the verses and I just I'm amazed by how we can read two texts, right? What's the ultimate truth?

47:50

You're in it's in it's beautiful He's a brother in the Lord and he believes differently than I but our or the Orthodox beliefs are make us both brothers

47:58

So what was your journey just in general and in your theology and kind of what you grew up with to what you landed on?

48:03

I'm always interested in that if you don't mind Yeah, I grew up in what I would call until the age of 12 just a good old -fashioned nice Pagan American home good parents, right, you know, we were well -to -do.

48:16

I Had no idea about much of anything and then about the age of 12 my mom's sister was dying of cancer which made my parents ask big questions and She came to the

48:26

Lord just before she died of cancer and that made my parents go What is this? What is this all about?

48:33

So my mom started taking me to church. My dad didn't want to go He was like I'm gonna That's crazy stuff.

48:40

So my mom and I started going to church, but shortly thereafter my dad. He's like, all right I'm gonna start with the

48:45

Bible and He would tell you that when he opened it up and read Genesis the very beginning

48:51

He said something just he knew it was true and he just believed he was like, this is

48:59

God speaking somehow I know that so we started going to church and we landed in a

49:06

Assemblies of God, okay, so We were charismatic. I never did the whole slain in the spirit

49:12

I went to church camp and people are falling down. They touch me and nothing happens. Well, I don't know whatever is wrong with me, right? Yeah, so we were in the assemblies of God for a while My dad after a while was like, ah, this isn't for us.

49:38

So we went into the Christian and Missionary Alliance and There I met my future wife at the age of 16.

49:47

Her father happened to be the pastor and Her father is what you would very

49:53

MacArthur esque. Okay, so very Calvinistic And he's discipling me and I'm studying to maybe go into the ministry and he starts giving me

50:02

Charles Hodge and Van Till And Calvin and all these people and I'm reading it and I'm going oh

50:09

I love these guys. These are great But to bring it to this topic,

50:14

I was like when I was reading Charles Hodge I'm like, wait a minute. It seems like he's saying something different Than Francis Turidan on the issue of the extended atonement, but I must be mistaken and then years later is like Revisiting it.

50:29

I'm like a minute. No, they're actually saying things are different So I started studying it more and then lo and behold scholars like yes.

50:35

Yes. They are saying something different There are fine distinctions here and lo and behold these things were debated to the nth degree in like the 17th century, right?

50:43

And here we are Downstream and I would say to be fair that limited atonement has largely won the day right now

50:51

You know right now. It's my point. Yeah earlier was my point is right now We may go a hundred years from now and we go remember those limited it they were good guys

51:00

But they were limited atonement guys, you know, yeah. Yeah, it's crazy how you see that through church history So, okay

51:05

So then was that what what age were you there were you like in the ministry or 20s or 30s or where we got? Yeah So yeah,

51:12

I met my wife at 16 Got married when I just turned 19 and I was discipled in my early 20s.

51:20

Okay, and I pivoted Out of the

51:25

Christian Missionary Alliance into reform before so, okay I live at that time I was living in the

51:31

Indiana and if you know anything about Indian It's like corn cornfields as far as you can see. I lived out and kind of you know

51:37

Yeah, you come up to the big house here up the road from me and we whoop you every year in football. Yeah So I'm in Michigan Okay, so if you want to find a reformed church in Indiana It can be a long way away and sure enough the nearest one was like 35 miles away

51:53

And it was this little church called it was an RPC in a church If people don't know what that is, they only sing psalms without instruments.

52:00

That's kind of their their shtick. Okay so I started going there and Lo and behold

52:06

I was there for 10 years. I really enjoyed it learned a lot. We moved to Florida I was in the

52:11

PCA for a while and basically I've been swimming in reform circles Jefferson being being a thorn in people's sides over this issue

52:23

That's funny, all right, so let's wrap this up give us the final word if someone's out there listening wants to know more about this particular

52:32

Issue is there books that you've written that they can read some some books maybe or some sites or you know that you can

52:38

Refer them to what would you tell them? Yes, so I will hold up. This is my book and Now here's the good thing.

52:46

You can go on Amazon and get that and yay for me. All right, I make a few bucks But I'm a firm believer in Something called like the

52:55

Dorian principle where I think theology should be free And so I can give you a link if people want a

53:01

PDF of my book I'm not gonna buy you a book, you know I'm not gonna spend my money to get you a hardback But if you want a

53:07

PDF for free, you can get my book as a PDF for free and read that in terms of other books in terms of the history one of the best books on kind of just the history and just an

53:18

Objective look at who lands where and why? Everybody from Anselm to Norman Geisler to MacArthur to John Calvin David Allen has written a book called the extent of the

53:30

Atonement and it's just looking at Who believed what and why and it's really really well done now.

53:36

It's like a you know, big honking thing But I think that's a great book if you if you want to just like really dig into the subject

53:46

Especially who's who and who said what? Yeah, well Austin.

53:51

Thanks so much for being here I mean we could probably go another hour with all kinds of fun questions and stuff We are up against time, but I appreciate your time today

53:59

Just coming here as a brother in the Lord and explaining something to us and the listeners that like I said

54:04

I'm not too familiar with or even historically familiar with I will be Picking up your book because anytime anyone provides a free digital copy

54:13

I always go by the hardcopy to support the author because I love the fact that they put it out for free

54:19

That's just my own personal thing. So I will be getting one of those We'll make sure we link it up below to some of the books you mentioned and your book as well

54:26

If people want to get a hold of it, but thanks so much for being here today. Oh, seriously. I Appreciate you having me on and it was a lot of fun.

54:34

Thank you. Seriously Well, all right guys. Thanks so much for listening to another episode of dead men walking podcast as always

54:41

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55:17

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