Burning Qur'ans, Apostates, and Calls

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white and good morning.

Upcoming Debates and the Day’s Schedule

Welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning. The only dividing line of the week though. On Friday, please remember that we will be having two live debates Lord willing live streaming them with just as much success as we did in New York.

Hopefully as long as I can get my microphones where I need to get them. Those debates will be in Santa Fe at Calvary Santa Fe. I will be debating Robertson Janice on Calvinism and on the bodily assumption of Mary.

One at three o 'clock one at seven o 'clock. Their time which I think is an hour ahead of us. So Check the the website for that just to double-check that so still be getting plenty of Dividing line like stuff in this week.

Even though we won't have one on Thursday because I will need to be at the airport at that time for my flight over to Albuquerque and then the drive down to To Santa Fe. So please be praying for those debates.

I'm sure they will be spirited as always and They will be quite interesting now before Getting into any of our callers or anything else. I did want to address The controversy the current controversy that is going on regarding burn a Quran day.

I did make some brief mention of it when I posted the classic video by David Wood and Nabeel Qureshi. I'm getting a lot of static. It sounds like there's something shorting somewhere. So if I disappear don't worry about me folks, everything's just about to explode but I Thought they did a great job in turning the situation to an opportunity for education.

Which Nabeel and and David do quite well great guys and Be that as it may I wanted to read a Barnabas aid statement on the proposal burning of Quran the proposed burning of Quran's in Florida. This is from. Dr. Patrick Sukhdeo The international director of Barnabas aid and I want to make some comments after that.

He writes a church in Gainesville, Florida USA. The Dove World Outreach Center has announced that will burn copies of the Quran on Saturday September 11th to mark the ninth anniversary of the 9 -11 attacks the state did purpose this action is to raise awareness of the ideology and teaching of Islam and to warn against its dangers.

Barnabas aid condemns the proposed action for the following reasons. Number one. Barnabas aid is fully committed to making known the aspects of Islam that result in injustice and oppression of non-muslims.

Not the least the persecution of Christians. But we believe that the biblical and Christlike way to do this is by speaking the truth and the power of God's love and by Extending that love to Muslim people even when they are hostile to us in that context.

It can never be justified to destroy a book that Muslims regard as sacred. However firmly and profoundly we may disagree with its contents. Number two. The effect of the proposed action on Christians and Muslim majority context is likely to be extremely serious.

Already Muslim militants in Indonesia have promised to kill Indonesian Christians. If Quran's are burned in Florida and the history of anti-christian violence in the country suggests This is not an idle threat.

Barnabas partners in Iraq have expressed concern at the probable Muslim backlash against an already beleaguered Iraqi Church and Christians and numerous other places who live in daily fear of potentially deadly attacks will at once be placed in much greater danger.

It cannot be right to exercise our freedom to protest in a way that puts at risk the lives of our brothers and sisters For whom Christ died. Number three there is a further risk that Christian minorities may be divided among themselves as churches with links to the West come to be Unfairly associated with the action taken in Florida and its destructive consequences.

It is important for Christians under pressure to be united as their division serves only to weaken the church and increase its vulnerability to Muslim Attacks. It is therefore wholly inappropriate undermine that unity for the sake of an unnecessary and offensive and dangerous gesture.

For these reasons Barnabas aid urges the Dove World Outreach Center and its supporters to refrain from burning Quran's on the anniversary of 9 -11 Invites all Christians said to join us in prayer for our persecuted brothers and sisters throughout the world and that the hatred and violence that Endangered them may be overcome by the grace and love of Christ.

Now. All those things are quite true. I want to expand upon that It is foolishness to the extreme for people who know nothing about the Quran and the people at this church know nothing about the Quran.

They have not studied the Quran they are not capable of using the Quran to to Proclaim the gospel to to Muslims to point out the errors in the Quran the contradictions between the Quran and the Bible it is foolishness.

For individuals who are thusly ignorant of the important issues to be engaging in such an inflammatory act. It's just foolishness. What should be done and what I would like to suggest to people that you do is instead of burn a Quran day, it should be by a Quran day and learn the Quran day and Learn where surah 4 1 57 is so you can demonstrate that it is untrue.

Well, you can learn where surah 5 1 16 is. You can you can memorize these texts and be able to utilize them in Witnessing to Muslims that would be the best thing to do is to obtain these sources and Learn to use them to demonstrate their fundamental error.

Demonstrate that what you believe is true not by destroying as Quran's but by utilizing them to promote the truth if there was Any way to get through these folks? That's what we should be doing on September 11th.

But I also want to point out That while what this particular church is doing is foolish What does it say about Islam that there will be people who will die as a result of this foolish action? Does this not demonstrate that Islam?

Engenders a culture of immature violent people. I know that there are Muslims out there I do know that there are Muslims out there in Western countries primarily that would say this is foolishness ignore this this insult and Give dawah to these people instead but they are not the ones who have the greatest influence upon the Islamic populace and There will be people who will lose their life and they will not be Muslims but there will be people who will lose their lives because of the immaturity of Of a religion and this is an immaturity of a religion.

My religion is insulted every day. But I don't go out and kill people about it. And yet this is what happens primarily in what countries folks in? Western countries no in countries that are predominated by Sharia That are predominantly Islamic.

That's where the violence takes place. That says something about what happens when Islam Islam gains the majority and what it says is when Islam gains the majority Of the the moderate Islam that we see here in the West disappears it's gone and Instead you have this kind of violence.

It's kind of taking of life. Now you need to understand that for Muslims There is a In their mind Everyone in the West is responsible for what this one little group does. It won't matter that we speak out against it.

It doesn't matter because they see us as a quote-unquote Christian nation. I did the amazing illogic of the vast majority of practicing Muslims in the world the lack of meaningful thought processes taking place on a fundamentally logical level is Frightening the idea is that well if you don't go over there and shoot those people then you're agreeing with what they're doing.

They just don't understand the concept of freedom. They they many of them simply are not mature enough to practice freedom. They can't let it happen. It's amazing. But they really do believe you see these are this is what Christians do they don't even allow for The idea that these people may be extremely immature Christians.

That they may have other motivations involved. They really believe they look at this nation Soaked as it is in its God hatred. And say well, there's a Christian nation and it's not It it's amazing but remember when I debated Sheikh Jalal Abou Alrub, he said that Christianity invaded Iraq and That's how they think.

That is how they think and that's why there are protests in the streets about a small little church in Florida. That somehow managed to get press coverage of what it's doing. It is it is an amazing thing.

It is it is foolish what they are doing, but it is even more foolish how the Islamic world is responding to it. There's immaturity in both places. But one is on the part of a 50 member church and one is on the part of a billion People there's there's a little bit of a difference there.

So there you go. It's foolish to be burning Quran's our suggestion buy a Quran read the Quran. Discover that most of it will make no sense to you whatsoever. But even at that point you will discover. Quite honestly as we have we have discussed so many times that the author of the Quran simply did not understand many of the things that he was addressing and.

And We need to start dialogues, but we need to know what it is we're talking about. It sounds you know, it sounds to me like one of those old 33 LPs today on the dividing line a special effect the 33 LP effect where everyone's while you hit a little piece of dust and Got a little pop a little crack.

It makes me feel, you know, it makes me long for the olden days, you know. It just got the broom he's getting ready to do some technical adjusting in the other room. When I was when I walked through the door in here rich weren't weren't you telling me?

That the the audio difficulties just cleared up when you did a reset on on on the thing. I think that's what you said when I was coming in. He's gone now and you. Which is gonna be difficult if we're gonna be taking phone calls a hand reaches into the window.

Hey, it stopped it stopped. Really it honestly did I do not hear it anymore. So either the threat of the of the of the adjustment or reaching over there and adjusting that one little connection. Did it but?

Okay, it's not as bad as it was let's put it that way. Oh, well. Held together with chewing gum and bailing wire. That's that's that's what we're up to these days. Eight seven seven seven five three three four.

Yeah, nobody move. It's sort of like. It's not like those rabbit ears, you know, you'd get it just right as long as everyone stood still in the room.

You know, I have a feeling most of the people that are listening have no idea what rabbit ears are.

Well, I don't know. We still have we still have rabbit ears. We had to get one of those converter boxes and oh, it's terrible I mean. We just don't we just don't pick up signals well at our house at all and Sarah once while everything just freezes and turns green.

And all sorts of wild stuff. It's supposed to be so really, you know, great and wonderful, but it's it's not. Anyhow, eight seven seven seven five three three three four one or Skype at dividing dot line is the phone number and I do have stuff queued up, but we have a caller all the way from London and it's probably getting well.

It's not too late there, but let's go ahead and.

Oneness Pentecostalism and John 14

Talk to. I believe the name is Shalim. Hello. Yeah. Yes, sir. Good evening. And it's good morning in America. How are you good? Okay, cool, I just had one question to ask you it's a bit off the topic.

It's regarding one is Pentecostals. Mm-hmm. I had a conversation with one is Pentecostal like on Sunday and he raised a question. He said he said that John 14 9 says the Jesus is the father and he said well This is 100 proof that you know, Jesus is the father.

I just wanted to know what do you think about this?

Well Obviously John chapter 14 distinguishes between the father and the son over and over and over again. So it is a it is a presupposition on the part of the one that's Pentecostal that that if if Jesus is in any way shape or form Connected with the father and they somehow are together knows what it says Jesus said to him have I been so with you so long and you still not know me father.

Whoever has seen me has seen the father. How can you say show us a father? He didn't say I am the father. He says he's the revelation of the father. Notice he says do you not believe that I am in the father and the father is in me the words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority.

Well, if he's the father, what do you mean? He doesn't speak on his own authority. There's only one authority to speak on the words. I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the father who dwells in me does his works.

He identifies himself as the one sent by the father now for the one that's Pentecostal the way they understand that. Is that Jesus the son is a mere human being who came into existence in Bethlehem? So they they turn Jesus into two persons.

Where he has a he is a human person and then the father dwells in this human person. But the human person only came into existence in Bethlehem. The problem is even at the end of this chapter in John chapter 14 He says I and the father are one he uses a plural verb.

I and the father we are one. He doesn't say I and the father I are one and he constantly says I've been sent by the father. And then he praised the father in John chapter 17 and says glorify me with the with the glory.

Which I had with you in your presence before the world was so if you can talk to someone using personal pronouns and you can Refer to things that have taken place between yourself and this other person in eternity past.

You're clearly not this other person and so John the Gospel of John is extremely difficult for one that's Pentecostals because the prayer life of Jesus and the community the communion between the father.

And the son and and the son constantly referring to the father as another person. They have to turn Jesus into two people. So he is schizophrenic in his prayer life that's he's half of him is praying the other half of him or something like that.

Which which makes absolutely no sense.

Instead, how would you how would you advise me to like how would you advise me? How should I speak to him because he said he's quite open to understanding. Okay. Well a couple things.

There is a video on YouTube on my youtube channel and you can get to my youtube channel from ailman org. There's a link on the front page. Dr. Oakley 1689 is the is the YouTube channel. There is a debate there At least the first half of the debate.

All that's all we've got of it unfortunately between myself and Robert Sabin one of the leading oneness Pentecostals of the past number of decades and My opening presentation there takes you through. The three key texts that I would use in talking with the one that's Pentecostal is John 1 1 John 17 5 and Philippians chapter 2 and I go through and demonstrate how in each one of these texts a divine person Who pre-exists his birth in Bethlehem, but is differentiated from the father is clearly presented to us.

And so you can either utilize that presentation from YouTube. Obviously, there's an entire chapter on the subject in my book The Forgotten Trinity. But it would require you know a firm understanding on your part on how to answer their Philosophical objections and keep bringing them back to the scriptures because it's the scriptures that demonstrate clearly.

Trinity. I just wanted to know like what more you could add to what I've read because I read the section that says most Misunderstood passages and I read about John 49, right? I just wanted to know like what else you could tell me but that's really that's really kind of you.

I just want to ask one more thing. I'm actually in college. So we have some 17 years old so I Come across a lot of Muslims and because most of my schools like maybe 80 are Muslims. So what I've noticed with Muslims are is they'll ask you a question, but most of them wouldn't want to reply, right?

They would just want to ask the question. Let's just make fun of you and I'll just make fun of what you believe. Like how can Jesus be good? I said, okay. Okay. Let me try explain to you. Why would we believe Jesus God?

No, that's impossible, right?

Well, you know what I would do I would I would stop them. I would I would stop them. I looked them in the eye and say look one of the 99 names of Allah is Alhaq the truth and I'd simply have to ask you do you really want to know the truth or do you just want to argue?

If you really want if you're really a Muslim and you really believe that Allah is Alhaq. Then you won't just simply throw out objections. You will actually seek the truth with me and if what you believe is true, then it'll be shown to be true.

But if you won't even allow me to say a word Then you clearly don't really believe that what you believe is true. Now some of them will hear that some of them won't. It's one way of trying to get but you there's nothing that you can Do if someone is not willing to to even engage in meaningful conversation.

I mean you can there are certain, you know objections you can raise some way you can try to start the thinking process. But the fact matter is if you know there are so many in the Islamic world that are just so influenced by a Radical form of Islam really an ancient Quranic form of Islam actually that they they don't they have no ears to hear and We cannot give people ears to hear we we can only speak to those who want to hear.

Okay. Okay, thank you very much, thank you. Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. I guess we've got lots of phone calls here. You have to hold on to him for a second because I promised in the last program that I Was gonna get back to this and I do need to get back to this.

I just wanted to take the phone call from from London, but let me Try to get to a Joe and to Colin As soon as I can but on the last program I was playing segments from an interview with Mark Ayers who is a convert to Roman Catholicism.

From as I recall the PCA denomination and he calls himself a former presuppositionalist. He was the one that was arguing that Presuppositionalism would lead you to Rome which of course the the sound that you hear in the background is the spinning of Cornelius Van Til and Greg Bonson in their graves at at such an assertion.

But we were listening to some of the things he was saying and I wanted to get to the second part of what I wanted to play. I Promised to do so so we sort of need to do so. And then I've got some other stuff too.

So we'll see how we can work it all in here as as much as we can. Wow the the lines are quite busy with others other subjects But we'll try to get to them as best we can. Let's go back and listen to Mark Ayers convert Roman Catholicism.

Talking about the road that he took and getting to the Tiber River.

Mark Ayers on Converting to Roman Catholicism

To kind of get it through my thick head. Because I still had all this the kind of what you would call the standard objections all the So-called weird things the Marian doctrines. What is purgatory? I don't really understand the nature of the papacy so forth and so on.

Some things that were very very helpful in that regard were. Well, I'll mention one thing right off the bat this actually occurred well before.

I.

Got down this line was a debate with again my hero. Dr. Bonson with a Catholic speaker who used to work at Catholic answers now has kind of gone a different way named Gary Matitick's.

It's Jerry Matitick's of course and Very fascinating debate there is a. I wonder why mr. Ayers doesn't mention that there was a priest involved who was absolutely worthless. And isn't it interesting that Jerry Matitick's would love to debate People like Jimmy Akin and Patrick Madrid or Robertson Janice none of them will debate him.

I thought following Rome brought unity and yet Jerry Matitick's Utilizing the very same argumentation to use when he was the Catholic answers would say to be consistent. You can't follow the current Pope Isn't that?

Interesting, I thought that solved all things. Anyways Dr. Bonson did a fine job. I can understand how people again if you're ignorant of Roman Catholicism, you're ignorant of church history you're ignorant of the circular argumentations of Roman and Listen to a Jerry Matitick's and oh, he sounds so confident.

He speaks so quickly I can understand how someone might be impressed by that. But I'm not impressed when someone can listen to that debate and not do their homework and realize How many times Jerry Matitick's was just completely off base and what he said there but again, we're in that honeymoon stage of convertism here and and that's what happens but but.

It was a fascinating debate and it and it because every other debate that I've heard dr. Bonson in with you know, various atheists or kind of so-called progressive Religious folks and all the rest. We're just fantastic.

It was complete annihilation this one. I have to ask question. How could he do that without the authority of the infallible Church? Functioning only on the basis of Scripture. How could he annihilate these people and mr. Ayers?

Why is there no Roman Catholic Greg Bonson? I wonder if they think about these things before they go swimming across there to the smells and bells.

I really wonder if they think about these things. I just was kind of stunned. Although I never admitted it but there were a lot of questions that there really wasn't a good answer for and it just bothered me in a such as.

And you know, it'd be fun to go through and a lot of people haven't heard that debate. It's very very very it wasn't even debate. That's the other problem. Why why does people keep calling these debates radio programs?

You know that I was talking about the Catholic answers thread. I wrote wrote something last night about the Catholic answers thread or they're lying about me yet again. Accusing me of packing the audiences salting the audiences.

It's just well our side loses is because you put too many of your guys in the audience. But when Tim Staples has his students in the audience yelling Eucharist. That's the a Rome, you know. It's just amazing the circular reasoning that these these folks are willing to engage in.

But anyways, I mentioned that you know right up there at the top of the of the of the thread is White versus Aiken debate and what is it? It's the Bible answer man radio program from like what? 1993 like 17 years ago or something like that, which was not a debate.

We've gone through it point by point even measured out the times and demonstrated that mr Aiken has to get what was it? 63 62 63 percent of time just to be able to call it the feet. I guess it's oh. It's just the the standards on that's on that that far side of the Tiber are truly amazing anything in.

Defense of mother only kind of floated around in there. And then once we started to get down this line. And in that debate they talked about Mary they talked about these things and I thought gosh those answers were really at least reasonable.

They were reasonable they that made sense that didn't seem so weird. But then I you know, just quickly dismiss that all that came back once I got to the point of Okay, we can't stay where we're at. We need to be at a place where it has the apostolic authority and the succession.

We need to be at a place where the sacraments are administered. I understand now the sacramental nature of life. That you know that which was now very beautiful for me. I understood the history of the of the faith and I you know.

Never mind the fact that the sacraments developed over time and that there's no evidence of the apostolic nature of five out of seven and. You know, that's let's let's only go with the most surface level view of history.

We can possibly find. You wanted to be in with that. You know, I want to be linked to my great brothers and sisters who had gone before me. But yeah.

You know who did not believe dogmatically the things that Rome is defined now that you have to believe those same people.

The Roman Catholic Church had all these weird things. I remembered a lot of those things I had heard from that debate and Then I started to read a lot of thank you. Catholic answers was particularly helpful there they had a great website that kind of walks through the the very the list and gives a lot of good explanations of that what it actually is.

As opposed to what the what the what people think the church teachers which was what I found overall Very stunning is every single thing that I thought I knew about the Catholic Church was just dead-on wrong.

Well, that means that this man was incredibly ignorant as a Protestant. I mean, this is all there is to it. Evidently, he had not read any of the primary works where the Reformers had responded to Roman Catholicism evidently.

You know unless he's saying they got it all wrong. But our debates well over. Around 40 of the more than hundred and by the way rah-rah. Let's have a little duh-duh-duh. We've passed 100 debates. 100 moderated public debates.

At least 40 of those I'd say have been with Roman Catholics given the last debate with Christopher Farrar. We've demonstrated that you can accurately contextually historically quote a Roman Catholic dogmatic teachings councils, etc, etc.

And there's all sorts of solid information like that out there and evidently marketers. Just did nothing about it. Now. There's a lot of people like that. But isn't it funny once they start going that direction?

They don't come to the people in their communion that can that have also studied those things and know where those those those resources are. Not uncommon at all been there done that got the t-shirt.

I I know converts pretty pretty well.

It when I really understood what the Catholic Church taught I thought gosh, that's beautiful.

Yeah, and and it's it and here again. It's beautiful. Why is it beautiful? Why is a never-ending ceaseless treadmill of penances and Priestly absolution beautiful in comparison to the finished work of Christ imputed righteousness Which is seamless in him having his life.

How's that beautiful? That's that's why I want to talk about this is is I don't understand apostates because that's what Mark Ayers is. He's an apostate. He has he has fallen away from the profession that he made in alleged belief in the absolute necessity of Only one way of peace with God and that is the perfect seamless robe of the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

Now he's willing to embrace and an imperfect work of Christ that is meted out to him over his life in Eucharistic Perpetuatory sacrifices that will never perfect anyone. He might end up undergoing sodas postulant purgatory I bet you dollars doughnuts before long.

You'll hear him talking about fictional imputation all the rest that stuff. What causes a person? Who at one point in time?

Truly.

Understood The glory of the gospel to trade it in for something like this. Well, I Don't think that you know, maybe possible that that person never really understood. I'm I'm planning. I I really in light of some recent events want to look at Second at first John 2 I may do a sermon or a couple sermons.

Even step out of the Hebrews series for One month or something like that and look at first John 2 19 They went out from us so that it might be shown they were not truly of us if they had been of us They would have remained with us, but they went out from us.

There's a reason why apostasy takes place and there's a reason why people walk away from what they professed and We need to be reminded over and over and over again that This has happened from the days of the Apostles and It had better bother us.

It had better bother any one of you Who are in the church to see people walk away from their profession of faith? I was just informed yesterday about someone that we had known for years who's just completely walked away from the faith and Here we're listening to someone who's walked away into error into heresy into falsehood.

Into into embracing a gospel that cannot by any stretch of the imagination Be said to be the same gospel that he was professing before it had better bother you. But it had better bother you not because it's like oh, I can't believe this would happen.

No, the scriptures tell us it is going to happen every single generation of the church experiences this. It should bother you because of the judgment. The light that a person has and the sinning against that light Jesus.

What did he say to those cities? Grayson and Bethsaida. That it had so much light in comparison to Sodom and Gomorrah great judgment. But the fact the matter is that when you preach the gospel Eventually it is going to have an effect even upon those people who have not been given ears to hear they have been in the congregation, but their driftwood Eventually the preaching the gospel Should drive them out.

It should offend them. We should not be surprised at the existence of apostasy. There have been many people said well I don't think you should do these debates because you know, I know people have become Roman Catholics because of that.

Well, duh. What do you expect to have happen the proclamation of God's truth is going to have an impact and in fact If it's done consistently enough Eventually it causes hypocrites to become offended and They either go off into unbelief simple paganism into the lust of the world or Into that huge broad expanse of false religion which is just one aspect of man's rebellion against God and So we have to keep that in mind.

It.

Clearly should bother us When we see people who have made a profession said I hold to these beautiful truths. This is my only hope my only hope the righteousness of Jesus Christ He who knew no sin was made sin in my behalf that I might become the righteousness of God in him not through Things I do not through the authority of some sacramental church.

But in him that's my only hope. And yet to see someone trade that off for the trinkets of the empty religion of Romanism, I Hope the day never comes that my heart doesn't break to see that no matter how many times I have seen it.

But what makes my heart break even more are people who don't cross the Tiber River but who don't realize the precious nature of what they already say they possess and Are willing to say it doesn't matter.

The gospel doesn't define the Christian faith.

That's that's even even more troubling and in very rich. There was just a weight to it. There was a there was an authoritative weight to it. But then the big whammy is when you see people like our great heroes like Augusta now in the PCA world as you know.

Everyone loves Augusta. We're gonna quote Augusta and all the time just like Calvin did. He's great.

Why? Did Mark Ayers ever understand why both sides in Reformation could quote Augusta? Both sides in the Reformation could properly quote Augusta because Augusta's doctrine of the church was fundamentally in contradiction with Augusta's doctrine of grace because they developed out of different Controversies.

His doctrine of the church developed out of the Donatist controversies doctrine of grace out of the plaguing controversy and the fact the matter is the two don't mix and. As B .B. Warfield who certainly Mark Ayers should have known put it quite well The Reformation inwardly considered was nothing more than the victory of Augustan's doctrine of grace over Augustan's doctrine of the church.

Very insightful very true. And. And if if he was so naive that he did not know. That Augustan held too many beliefs that we would not hold to while holding to others that we would then once again. That tells you a lot about the people that swim the Tiber.

Except I never understood that. A he was a staunch Catholic. B. What do you mean by a staunch Catholic?

He certainly wasn't a follower of the Bishop of Rome in the sense of Investing with him in him the ultimate authority of all things. The situation was zosimus and the plaguing controversy proved that beyond all question beyond all question fact.

I was listening in fact I want to get to it here eventually, but I don't know we're gonna get to it with the phone calls. But I wanted to get to the cross-examination period I had with Robertson Janice on this if you want to hear.

I had. I don't believe I could be wrong about this. But I don't believe I've ever listened to my debate Robertson Janice on papal infallibility from Clearwater, Florida until this morning and I'm actually not done with it because I only did a short ride this morning only 22 and a half miles, but I was listening to it this morning and It was a good debate it was a good debate.

It's available. I think it's 494 493 something like that. 94. Neither. It's in the store on the website. And if you haven't listened to it, I would highly recommend that you you get it. We have it. Is it available in mp4.

I don't know if it's available in mp4. I know. That's right. We never got videos on that. Did we. Oh, that's a bummer. That's right.