March 26, 2020 Show with Ron Dart on “Myth & Meaning in Jordan Peterson: A Christian Perspective”

The Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Introduction and the Goal of Mutual Edification

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us. Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation To make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live-streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 26th day of March 2020 and I'm delighted to have for the very first time on the program Ron Dart To discuss an issue That has created a lot of controversy in the body of Christ.

In fact, even in the secular world this is going to be Included in his book that we are addressing myth and meaning in Jordan Peterson a Christian perspective. And Ron Dart who teaches in the Department of Political Science Philosophy and Religious Studies at the University of the Fraser Valley in Abbotsford British Columbia has authored or co-authored 35 books that deal with the interface between literature spirituality and politics including the North American high Tory tradition published by American Anglican Press and Christianity and pluralism Published by Lexham Press who also publish myth and meaning in Jordan Peterson a Christian perspective Ron's latest book that he has edited along with a number of other Contributing authors and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to iron sharpens iron radio Ron Dart.

Jordan Peterson, Secularism, and the Christian Controversy

Well, this is a subject that is quite fascinating to me because I know people on both sides of the Jordan Peterson controversy within Christianity with an evangelical Christianity. When I say both sides, I mean those That admire him so much they believe that Christians should readily make much use of his material and and watch his videos and Take him very seriously as A knowledgeable expert in many areas and then you have others Who warn people to stay away from him because they think that he will mislead many in the body of Christ since he is not a Evangelical Christian who believes in the inerrancy of scripture and so on.

But if you could Give us in summary a description of who Jordan Peterson is.

Well, I think probably I mean there's various ways or portals in here. A very good question is that. He's been very active since the 1990s and into the first decade and entry and raising some big questions particularly in a culture in which Christendom has vanished and Christianity does not have it once does and secularism has come to dominate.

And with the coming-to-be of a certain type of secularism, there's a moral vacuum has set in and as a result of that the division culturally between. On the liberal its own orthodoxy in that sense. And then there's been a form of conservatism reacting Peterson unlike many who Will critique from the stands he's entered the eye of the hurricane on this Peterson as I think you rightly mentioned who's uncritically sort of genuflect to work as Camille.

He's going to you know, say Western civilization. And there are others who very wary of them in that he does not reflect embody historic creedal confessional Christianity in any sense and so there's within the broader Christian community but also within the much bigger as I mentioned and as you hung on him.

And then there are those cannon-loaded who just keep firing and firing at him. Both from within the religious community and also the broader that sense.

Well, I I know that he is a Jungian clinical psychologist and. Can you summarize what the difference would be Between a young Ian and a Freudian psychologist and and what would be the main emphasis of a young Ian?

Influenced psychologist.

Well in the 19th century what began to emerge intellectually Christianity and religion itself be Frederick Nietzsche. I did my PhD one of my comprehensives on Nietzsche. He played a very important claiming religion was the canvas of some notion that there is a god out there.

But there really is nothing if they should know. Carl Jung and the Freudian young hinge on this. Young argued as a psychologist that in fact religion was foundational to what it means to be human and There are birds or genetic code if we don't heed them or if we ignore them or leads to a cliff edge for both soul and society.

So one of the Freudian young is a certain understanding of the importance. It's almost built right into what it means to be would argue that we are ego super weakening. From Freud's perspective. Came along and said no no.

No.

Be careful when you do this because in doing so you're going to negate somebody human in terms of Knowing the psyche and knowing the spirit or the pneuma and there are certain truths or structures built right into the human soul.

That we ignore to our pressure many other sources as well other than young.

And I'm going to take this time to invite our listeners. To join us on the air with questions of your own. Our email address to do so it's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chr is a r n z e n at gmail .com.

Please as always give us at least your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you disagree with your own pastor over the use of Jordan Peterson's works. Perhaps you're a pastor and you even disagree with your own fellow elders or your denomination over this or some kind of a reason why you would not want to draw identity.

A draw attention to your identity or reveal your identity. I Understand that that would be a reason to remain anonymous. But other than that if it's just a general question. Please give us at least your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

What was the most compelling factor that led you to edit this book. Myth and meaning in Jordan Peterson a Christian perspective.

Well, I think the probably the subtitle a Christian perspective might be a pointer into why I did this in that. There has been no. Peterson has been very Interested and committed and he he would pack out audiences in Toronto and elsewhere.

In the new test on in the biblical tradition and and more significantly the Christian perspective itself. And so the one of the reasons we did that is one. There's nothing out to Peterson has been addressing this again and again.

And he's received a lot of criticism for more secularism. But why would some and trained as a scientist in psychology with a PhD in the area? Why are you dabbling in things such as Christianity, which is dated?

It's outmoded. It's of a previous age. But he's there to challenge that dominant ideology arguing. In fact Christianity When understood a right continually speak to the human condition and the Bible itself.

When understood in a certain way as a perennial ring in their all-too-human Journey, so the subtitle are provided by he did 12th of meaning in which he's hinting. He's pointing there's breadcrumbs on the trail that as it were if you follow them.

He's leading you to the the mansion of Christianity, but you haven't followed them on the pathway. And so idea to say, okay. Let's bring together a bunch of essays from a variety of angles some form of hard secularism or aggressive secularism for the problem.

And say how is he trying to rethink? Convince people of the eternal validity and you've already touched on the subtitle.

But if you can explain in more detail the actual title of the book. Especially in regard to myth and meaning when it comes to Jordan Peterson.

Okay, so really in the last three or four hundred years. There's been two dominant worldviews which have come to Take front stage one even more than another one is the very much a scientific rationalist Objective information.

Empiricism is the only way to know anything and if you can't verify thing through the senses that they may be subjectively and in that sense myth and the subjective and eternal truths have been banished from elements of that a scientific was trained in that he sees himself as a Scientist not scientists in terms of the natural sciences like the science of the soul.

And of course large elements coming from the Freudian tradition in that world again Just negate the spiritual. The other wing complement to that rational scientific has been that the notion that there are great eternal truths society and Those truths are revealed to as those myths that point out that you forget it.

So what Peterson starts with because most Christendom post Christian society in my chapter deals with this in memoir side where Dan I find that my students is that you they know of Nothing there. There's no memory and we all know for example if we Go to bed at night.

We wake up in the morning with no memory very hard to navigate because we are part memory and to think of the culture or religion or Economics or literature where there is no memory people find it hard to Don't have the big highly as somebody somebody who has never heard of the Bible.

I vote. Yeah. That's how far we've gone down a memoir side root learned it open to all we know nothing about man. So growing up on say Walt Disney many are cynical and suspicious. And what happens when a person goes down that road and does not engage angled on string or beauty and the beast?

He's turned into a beast Externally, and he's only redeemed through beauty there are myths 20th century which has drawn many people to Narnia or Lord of the Rings in them and The nature what it means to meaningful human life and know yourself at a deep level and in family and stories.

You got an untruth a myth is an eternal. It's an eternal truth wrapped in the garments of a story. And so there are these two traditions in the West which swing and the others called the romantic wing.

And one has held a myth very very high and that there are truths and we ignore those truths to our peril. Psychologist who works with the breakdown of the human soul. He has worked at him. He has a very pastoral side to him.

He's seen what happened. So don't know how to order their desires and their longings prop and relationships and work and religious communities and all these things. So he's he tries to retrieve or find the old trails where there are the great eternal embodied be a young.

But many other people so he's trying as a psychologist Ignoring the in terms of the stories and if we ignore those stories You don't know them that hurt ourselves. We harm ourselves and we harm others in the process.

And so and to the title so myth gives meaning. Listeners root ourselves in the greater truth than he would argue in the Bible. You is itself a math the utopian world and yet of course we see the implications of that insurance just sheer nihilism and fragmentation.

So is the whole turn to myth he argues Meaning in the deepest sense and humans long for meaning they long for purpose. They long to be oriented towards something meaningful toward a North Star and not Go all over the place in the water and finally meaning it is ignoring the great age of Mamora side with Walt Disney stories.

But then he wants to take people back to the grottied in the Bible itself.

You used an interesting word there Mamora side. I know that that's a destruction memory. And I have a listener question that I'm going to address momentarily. Who asked about that very? thing but before that How would you summarize.

And this would be primarily for the sake of those who may be apprehensive about either your affirmations and defenses of Justin Jordan Peterson or your critiques of Jordan Peterson, but how would you summarize a description of your own personal Christian worldview?

Your disciplines theology and perspectives.

Well, I come from an Anglican background, which would be Episcopal in the United States Church of England obviously in England and within that you mentioned earlier one of the books I did was Christian imperialism.

That's an earlier book. Oh, of course. Yes. So I study with Jim Packer in the 1970s at Regent College in Vancouver 79 full-time. Jim and I were very involved in the 1990s is the Anglican Church of Canada the Episcopal crisis.

Tensions which led to Fragmented within the within the Anglican tradition broadly speaking. There are three heritages. One is very high Church Catholic Grounded in The Bible as interpreted by the mothers and 1400 years.

Then there is the reformed tradition of which for example, Jim Packer continued to. So my background is Anglican. I was really grounded in the Bible as interpreted by the by the mothers and fathers of the church and the great creeds of the church the confessions which entry terms of now to get into the full theology of the century that Anglicanism has tried to grapple with and it's more my person now.

I understand your fellow co-authors who have contributed to your book. Come from a fairly wide spectrum of theological thought and disciplines within Christendom. And can you summarize the spectrum of differences and why these authors were invited to participate on this project?

Well first were chosen, right? They had all Done some work on Jordan Peters all in their different ways. Expressed an interest written on and had been influenced by Jordan Peterson. Depending on their journeys and the question trail marks is a variety of things that we're writing Pleasingly and theologically.

So the first point is and again, we weren't we didn't want genuflecting or demonization. I mean that doesn't help us understand anything in a meaningful way reactionary to focus. Peterson is contributing an immense Amount.

Probably he's probably I mean he has been the last three or four years probably the most prominent Intellectual in the lion's den at the present time. And very few people I mean they can write books, but very few people actually go right into the arena and Engage the some of the people.

And he's obviously felt the pain and the struggle again from the Anglican. But I stand you have Christianity broad. Do you understand evaluate? Dominating question he draws and he evokes with offers journey an end destiny way of life further and explore.

Well I'm sure that a lot of folks in my audience specifically would want to know are. Is there a representation of confessionally reformed Calvinistic? Authors that have contributed to the book.

Yeah, there'd be people who lean who lean in that direction. And and they'll you know, they'll they're interested in. How would you would make sense of Peterson within? Within a reformed or variations of Calvinist.

Calvinist tradition dominate because we recognize that Christianity itself has many different approach in that sense of Calvinist. Read of I mean I've done interviews For example with I don't know if you know, California.

Coming from a reformed background and that's one version of a reformed back the reformed tradition itself and himself. I don't in that sense Peterson is very much feeling his way into faith and he's right.

Is he is he a theist? Well, he would definitely. Oh, yes, I don't think one could deny. I mean, this is his critique of secularism as an ideology is to say Atheist perspective in that to say to take that position.

You'd have to have all the information in the world over all time.

To make a dogmatic atheist perspective, right? You'd have to be omniscient to be sure.

Absolutely, and he has the humility and he also has the It's the curse the great myths in the world very much about. An openness to the transcendent and but asking the question you're open to the ultimate to God to the transcendent transform when translated into your personal journey in terms of the eminent society and Often people as I'm sure you're acutely aware can hex in order Theologically exigent still in there the private lab and families which seem people Psychologist his here at North Star that we're not victims of our own misguided desires or disoriented desires or our own drivenness in that sense and it's Concerned and it's very much Theology exegesis.

Yes, and that's very important. It's necessary but he would argue it's not fully sufficient because to be fully sufficient his concern was is always an Anthropological question living the lives of an end as a psychologist and as a counselor and yet there.

No, he's trying to care for human souls in that sense. He's a shepherd of souls going down all sorts of hurt and harm to them.

Peterson, Evolution, and the Healing of the Human Condition

Well, we have to go to our first break right now. And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for Ron Dart We do have several people waiting in line to have their questions asked and answered by Ron.

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He is On the Department of Political Science Philosophy and Religious Studies at the University of the Fraser Valley in Abbotsford British Columbia and the author and co-author of approximately 35 books.

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Conservative Appeal, Listener Questions, and Peterson’s Usefulness

And can you tell us before I go to any listener questions? Why is it that? Conservatives above anybody else tend to be more drawn to Jordan Peterson and view him as an ally. I.

Think there's probably two reasons for that culturally liberalism. One is what we would call In that their quality from our own subjectivity in that sense and that Particles to an ethical vacuum that leads to it's like Yates said the center cannot hold mere.

Anarchy is in the one hand conservatives Historically have stood for options and that there is things that are good better best right wrong. The other side of to its Fragmentary one is the police of the issues in terms of how you have to line up and to a fairly simplistic and reactionary understanding.

Conservatives argue very strongly through myth and as a Psychoanalyst they have no sense of even knowing how to make. This is who he encounters a lot in his reality liberalism and in that sense conservatism in a very difficult and often acrimonious An ally culture wars in which on the one hand the social on him viciously argument.

Yeah, it was in that centrum and the two top with all guns loaded in. We have a question.

From someone who is no Stranger to the iron sharpens iron radio audience. We have a dr. Jeffrey C. Waddington listening in today. He is the pastor elect of faith Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Fawn Grove, Pennsylvania.

And he's also a Jonathan Edwards scholar that we have had on this program As a guest and he's listening today and has a question. In fact, he has two questions and we'll probably have to wait till the We return from our midway break before we get to the second.

I'm just guessing on that but how do we as Christians benefit from? Peterson's videos and work while avoiding the pitfalls of his secular viewpoint.

I think where Peterson can be an ally in one hand Arguing that to be open to the transcendent is to be more fully human Than to ignore the transcendent way forward rather. I'm a more aside culture to the map meaning Gives them landmarks give them Cairns and Canada.

We call them a nook shock of life and. So broadly speaking he gives the big meta-narrative in an age which wants to negate Meta-narratives and in that in that sense, he's very very important when it comes to the secular.

I mean, there's three types of secularism and in that sense the third type I mentioned Earlier is what began to emerge in the 19th century Denominations which negates religion of Peterson be very continue in that sense but it has it when it gets in the be aggressive and digitization honor the sainty to life and when we negate the sacred then the secular becomes the sacred and what it's what.

It's TSL you will call strange. He would be close to the third and he's very open. His attempt though look like in people's personal lives the sacred in that sense. So Peterson is no Ideological I've mentioned you have a scientific secularism and this is where a new atheist and many other secularists who say what?

What's Peterson up to? He's brilliant myth. Why shouldn't of idolatry human longings for longing for God a quick answer to and.

We will read to you. Well, in fact, I'll read it to you now and then you'll answer it when we return from the midway break. Dr. Waddington wants to know what role does evolution play in Peterson's psychology and we'll have you answer that when we return.

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