Pastoral Ordination- Ben Zornes of Christ Church #pastor #ordination #crec

Pastoral Ordination as a Biblical Office

Welcome to the truth and love podcast. We are continuing our series on pastoral ordination. Our guest this evening is pastor elder Ben Zorn's from Christ Church of Moscow, Idaho. Stick with us. Welcome back to the love podcast.

We are very grateful and excited to have pastor Ben Zorn's with us this evening. I'm Rob and my co-host above me is Dan Covenanter Dan. And if you have watched this at all, you know us, but if you this is your first time you're new watching us.

Welcome. We're glad to have you here and welcome to you pastor Zorn's. Would you give us a few minutes of introduction? Yeah.

Yeah, I'm a I'm a pastor out in northern, Idaho. The snow is flying as we speak. So it's a winter storm watch. So we're enjoying being at the northern latitudes of the world. I moved out here a number of years ago To go through our church's pastoral training program and have continued to serve and minister here Last several years.

I'm the executive pastor for Christ Church, Moscow. A lot of folks would know the The resources and ministry that are being put out by our church and some of our related ministries Canon Press and and the New St. Andrews College and whatnot.

And of course Doug Wilson pastor Doug Wilson is kind of the the most well-known teacher and and a voice coming out of Moscow and so I've been out here eight or so years. I grew up in Colorado was a Youth youth pastors kid and went right out of in the Southern Baptist Convention came out of high school and felt called to ministry and began sort of dipping my toe in a variety of ways of Ministry, you know did did my stint in youth ministry did my stint in worship leading?

And then as as I got married and started having kids I realized that my Sort of generic reformed convictions were becoming a bit more Clear in regards to pedo baptism and Presbyterianism and I wanted to look for a place that I could receive training and growth in in in those Distinctives and the only place I could think where I'd want to go would be here and here in Moscow and so we moved out here eight or so years ago, and I'm married have have four kids and That's that's what I do so the Christ Church, Moscow is a part of the communion of reformed evangelical churches, which is a about a hundred Twenty or so churches here in North America and several around the world.

We have some we now have some in Brazil and We have got a candidate church in Tasmania one in Japan the Philippines. So so it's growing around the world, but primarily North American and we're a communion of churches that are Reformed and evangelical that's probably the best the name sort of says it all.

Right, so so Dan and I decided to do this series on pastoral ordination yeah, we're trying to go with the heart of truth and love and We we want to speak truth in love. Yeah, knowing that we we don't know everything.

We don't have it all we don't have it all together. We don't have all information and so we want to learn from one another and as we do that, you know our conversation will be Speaking truth in love to to one another and so we've we've tried to gather pastors from different denominations.

So that they can share and we can learn from them and maybe this will be a helpful resource to others. From maybe some places of strengths or weaknesses that they see from other denominations. And we can maybe learn from one another and and you guys have something unique in the in the CREC that is.

Kind of what you're I would say that you're you're known for that. That's certain uniqueness of bringing maybe two denominations that typically haven't been Together you bring them together in a unique way and I hopefully hopefully we'll explore that a little bit.

Yeah. Yeah, so my first question and Dan and I will try to rotate in asking these questions, but my first question Starts with being biblical that that term seems to be thrown out there and used loosely sometimes.

We'll have a conviction. We'll have an interpretation and we'll say well, you know, this is biblical and sometimes we elevate our certain interpretations to a place of Prescription for our lives when the scripture only Wants us to understand it in a descriptive way and then sometimes when we're in a discussion with someone We'll say well my position is the biblical one.

Yours is yours is not and then vice versa and that we just we kind of leave it that and agree to disagree. But on the issue of pastoral ordination We want to know what your thoughts are on it being biblical.

Is it a biblical doctrine? Is it an Ordinance of the church, you know, how do you how do you view pastoral ordination in the biblical?

The Biblical Charge to Ordain Men for Rule and Care

Yeah, I think it's yeah, I think it's biblical for the church to have Men Appointed for the rule and the care of the church. There's a there's a couple Places in scripture where that's I think made pretty explicit one being In Hebrews where it says give give honor to those who bear the rule over you knowing that they'll be made to give an account which means Members of the church of jesus christ need to know who is who they're to render Honor to who are ruling over them.

It's not just a Authority in the void. It's it's not telling children. Obey your parents in the lord, but not defining who what parents are um, it's it's it's very clear that there is a um a governmental authority given um to Certain men, um in in the church who are who are put forward for um stewarding And and caring for shepherding, uh, the body of christ the other the other place I would I would look would be um Where where it says in first corinthians four, I believe that paul says unto us.

Um, we're we're made the stewards of the mysteries of god. Um, and and in the latin, you know, the mysterion would be translated sacramentum where's where you get the the word sacraments, um, and so there's a kind of thread there of Ministers and elders being given the charge to rule and to steward the sacraments the the ministry of word and sacraments baptism in the lord's supper, um for the Building up of the church the edification of the church the care of the saints the the the watchfulness over the souls um of god's of of the flock of god.

Um, and that that also means on the flip side for somebody who's an elder or a pastor um. They are made to give an account. Which means they need to have a list of people they're responsible for you know, if you've ever taken your kids to you know amusement park.

Um, I was telling somebody somebody the other day that 90 of parenting in public is counting. How many kids do I have and are they all there? And that's somewhat pastoral ministry, um. Who are my people and golly.

I haven't seen so and so for the last several weeks. I hope they're doing. Okay. I wonder if they're Um, what if they're walking with the lord? I wonder if they're straying. Um, and that means that the congregation needs to know who is the who are the ones who are the men assigned to bear rule Over them.

And then the the pastors need to know who am I caring for?

Excuse me, i'm feeling a little under the weather, but um, we'll give it a shot um. So as far as as uh pastoral ordination goes um. The do you believe somebody. Obviously you believe that that pastoral ordination is a biblical concept.

But is it a requirement? Is it something that that has to happen? Does a pastor have to be ordained? Um, and. And it might be helpful also to uh, maybe give a short definition of what ordination is.

Ordination, Laying on of Hands, and the Three Models of Church Government

Yeah, I think the new testament, uh drawing from um, old testament and sanhedrin And the practices in the sanhedrin of electing the elders um who would oversee the sanhedrins in in israel's governmental structure um.

The concept of laying on of hands or the term that we get senator, which simply means elder. Um, the the the biblical, um case for it is that um When paul tells or when the the apostles tell the early church to seek for yourselves seek for amongst yourselves um men who are able to Serve the tables in regards to electing deacons.

Um, it also refers to the laying on of hands for um elders as well. Meaning these are men that are set aside um and and the congregation is acknowledging the the character and the the virtues um in this man, who um Is is demonstrating a faithfulness to the apostles doctrine and so the laying on of hands Also has connotations, of course of old testament.

Um sacrificial imagery of this is A lamb being led to the slaughter. This is this is a sacrificial Uh ministry not in the sense that you are atoning for anyone's sin, but you are laying laying down your life.

You're a shepherd who imitates the good shepherd who lays down his life for the flock and so yes, I believe ordination the setting apart of Um certain men to care for the church is a biblical one um. And and I think there's an important distinction then that needs to be made of there are principles and methods.

The the principle is that god has given the the rule of his church to the elders and the um Now the now the methods whereby individual churches might elect those elders or appoint those elders I think has varied of course throughout church history.

Um uh, but um. But that doesn't mean that there's not uh A clearly biblical way of doing it. It's not a your way is better. My way is better. Um, Or or who's to tell which way is better and we ought to be faithful students of scripture to discern What is the most faithful biblical method for?

Ordaining and installing Men who are charged with caring for the congregation of god the church of god um but again, the distinction there would be there's the principle of Men who are caring for the flock of christ Appointed by god answerable to god accountable to god for the flock and then there's methods which there's kind of three broad categories, I think where the church has Opted to structure itself.

There's the monarchical way, which is what you get in kind of the roman catholic or the Episcopalian anglican way, which is sort of top down and it matches consequently Um their civil government structure you've got the king and then it's all top down.

Um, you've got the more democratic way, which would be congregation churches where it's every baptized believer Has a say in it and then there's the the presbyterian or represent representative way, which is appointing um, it's the jethro model right of elect builders over tens fifties hundreds thousands.

Um, it's it's it's tiered but it's representative. It's it's covenantal in that respect. So, um I think there's i'm presbyterian. So I would I would make the case that that's the biblical model. Um, but the church has structured itself in other ways that I think have they've got bible verses to support their their view um uh, but um But I think yeah, we ought to strive for Um as as Great biblical fidelity as we can.

You're outnumbered rob.

That's okay, that's okay and I grew I grew up southern baptist and still am southern baptist. So I don't mind a bit. Take a jab. As you were describing those those different models um the southern baptist would claim, you know more congregational model style, but yet somehow some way it seems like There's going to be an elevation of somebody or or a group of people that Elevate themselves up to that monarchical position in the local church.

It's it's crazy how that works, right? Um. So let's let's jump into in these in these next questions the meat of uh, The conversation of where you guys are coming from. Sure. Um. The you you said that you were the executive pastor there.

So you you are one of the ordained pastors elders at christ church. I've described this ordination process at christ church. And then if there's any differences between your church and the rest of the churches in the crec.

Maybe described some of those differences, but just that process of what you guys or what a pastor would go through.

To become ordained. Yeah, i'll try to um Explain it maybe in a couple. Um at a couple levels, okay, um christ church holds to a four office view of Church government so you have the elders which consist of three sort of Distinct offices of elders.

They're all they all get one vote at a session meeting at an elder meeting but i'll be ministers who are uh ordained as Um ministers of word and sacrament. You have teaching elders, which is drawing from kind of the genevan Calvin's geneva had the theological doctors who were primarily tasked with teaching theology often in the schools, um, but but also Caring for the doctrine of the church and that sort of thing gifted men in instruction in particular and then we have What are called parish elders or what the pca might some other presbyterian denominations would call.

Um uh ruling elders, we call them parish elders because we want them to be. We like the the terminology parish elder because it indicates sort of a neighborhood uh Elder who's cared for this distinct group of people.

Um, and those guys so those three um offices. We would call all of them elders, um, but they have sort of different job descriptions you might say and then the fourth office being deacons. Uh, so that's what our church holds to but within the crec.

Um, there's three office and two office views as well. So you so we we allow for we allow for it all um office being just elders and deacons three office being Ruling elders teaching elders and deacons, which would be more I think your more typical.

Um, broad presbyterian way of structuring it at christ church for To elect an elder each of those categories have a bit of a different process but effectively you'd have a. Um for the for the parish elders it would be.

Anyone theoretically in the church could nominate someone to be an elder. Hey, this is a good guy. He's got his family in order. Um, everybody looks up to him. He should we want him to Be leading us and caring for us.

And we would the elders would then vet him ask him a series of questions have him go through a questionnaire. Um get get to know him. He may we may already know him pretty well and have no objections to moving him forward.

And then we would put him forward for an election. By the by the congregation sometimes we'd accompany that with maybe having him read a handful of books, um on a variety of variety of topics, but um.

He'd be elected by the church by heads of household. So each household would get one vote In it if there's any no votes, we would chase those down. Um, what's your reasons for voting? No, do you know where his and they might say?

Yeah, I know where his mistress in kentucky is and That would be a a not fun surprise, you know. Hopefully have discovered anything scandalous before putting someone forward. Um, but we want to give our congregation opportunity to say no.

Thanks um. And then they serve for two-year terms and then five-year terms and then life terms. Um for a minister. Um, and and we could do this all as well for our teaching elders, but primarily for the ministers.

Um, we would call them have a congregational meeting to call a man as a pastor. If he's not already ordained you would then ask presbytery to form an ordination committee. And that's where um, the guy has to go through what I like to fondly refer to as a theological colonoscopy, you know, it's you're gonna get um, Everything looked at you know, you need to know your stuff.

Um, you're going to be you're going to be tasked with Teaching and preaching and explaining and defending the faith. Uh more so than the parish elders are they're they're tasked with here's your 20 families.

You can just be checking in on them praying for them. If there's something that goes sideways, uh kicking it up to the pastors to to have them Provide maybe more thorough pastoral counseling, but we just want sheepdogs.

That's what the parish elders do for the ministers. We want them to be Thoroughly vetted so to speak by. Uh by the broader assembly of of the body of christ, um and that process um usually takes You know Nine months to a year.

There's a written exam. There's papers. There's um Examinations before the floor before you get to the floor of presbytery just to make sure the guy doesn't face plant at the floor of presbytery and gee The the trinity is like a shamrock or it's like it's like water ice Vapor like just to make sure he doesn't um, just collapse into a puddle on the floor of presbytery and uh embarrass us all.

Uh, and so then the presbytery so here's where the crec gets a little bit different from um, the more typical presbyterian structure. Um the crec at presbytery then the guy would be examined by by the presbytery.

Mm-hmm. They would they would vote to um commend him to the local church for ordination um, whereas in the pcaopc some other um, Presbyterian denominations. It's the presbytery that holds the man's credentials.

He's ordained and he's a member of the presbytery. The crec has ordination rest with the local church. Where he's a he's a member of his local church um, they're the ones that are going to sniff if he's going woke or if he's.

Or if his family's in shambles, or if he um, if something's going awry, they're going to be the first. Um, the immune system that's going to first um sense the anything going sideways, um. So that's where we're a bit different.

Um a little bit Decentralized. I I fondly refer to the crec as the wild west of the of the reformed denominations of the presbyterian denominations. Precisely because it's a bit more decentralized the only Property that the crec the denomination as a whole owns is its website.

There's no denominational headquarters. There's no standing committees. There's a presiding minister over it. Um, and he has a three-year term um, but we've we've really sought to decentralize it so there's not a Mega headquarters with a with a staff and a salary that's sort of unaccountable to anybody you know.

Can become an entity that outgrows everything else and that's where the real power lies. That's where the committees that's where the the conference circuit can um. The book deals like that's where that's where the power prestige and fame rests.

We've we've sought to decentralize it as much as possible. And I think you see that particularly in um Presbytery recommending a man to be ordained but that it's the his local church that's calling him that would Um ordain him and hold his credentials as a minister.

Does that that cover the waterfront? Yeah, yeah, that's great and.

You just using the term decentralization is is taking me in a political direction, which we're not going to go but it would be interesting to have you back and and Go that route and take that because it's there may be some Similar, I would like to ask you if there's some similarities there in your your thought process and why you do what you do.

But sure then go ahead. I could I could touch on that briefly. The communion of reformed evangelical churches um is a you might even call it like a confederation of churches where the the the authority rests in the local church instead of it being um.

Instead of it being a federal government top down. It's decentralized in that way, which I think is refreshing. Mm-hmm.

So as a baptist I concur.

So y 'all have uh. Y 'all allow for a credo baptist and pedo baptist positions within the denomination. Yeah, is that something that that um I don't put that is that something that is uh also by By church do their churches within the denomination that have um, maybe ministers who are who are Operating from different theological perspectives and if so, um.

How do they navigate those theological waters as they seek to serve the church? Um. As as a obviously a unified under under christ, but maybe with some differing perspectives on some things.

Credo Baptist and Paedo Baptist Coexistence in the CREC

Yeah, that's and that's a live issue for our denomination right now, um. We're 25 years old. The denomination is 25 years old. Um, and when it set up it was three churches that had been baptist churches that became presbyterian became pedo baptist.

Doug, uh, doug wilson in our church being one of the founding members of the crac having been churches that were um Had been baptist and changed convictions and navigated those waters um fairly peaceably with with the Congregants themselves not causing a church split but saying we want to we want to say that our baptist brothers.

We're not going to try to drown them anytime soon. Um, we want to get along with each other. Um a fellowship together worship together. Um partake of lord's supper together and have a good time doing it.

So when the crc was founded we sort of knew that you know founders knew that eventually this bridge would have to be crossed as far as what we do with reformed baptists and pedo baptists. Being in the same communion of churches um.

What do you do and this is kind of as we've grown. Um, there's a number of spots where we're working through. How do we acknowledge? So members moving from a say a pedo baptist family moving from the church, you know in in in moscow and they go to some Credo back at london baptist confession church um.

And their kids have been baptized have been communing. And they go they show up at the the credo baptist church and say we would like our kids to continue. Um taking the lord's supper. How does the reformed baptist church on board those?

Um, how do they receive those members? Um. So that's a live issue for us that we're working through and I think we've we've landed in a few good. Some good spots that I think are really workable. The problem in uh in a lot of christian circles that try to aim for unity or ecumenical ecumenicalism.

Is that they bake it down to the least common denominator, right? They go. Um, we all believe in god and They say so we can all get along. We can have the mormons here the jehovah's witness here the hindu and the um, and the you know, the the roman catholic priest and the Lesbiterian bishop and and all that sort of we can have we can all get along because we're we all believe in a god.

We all believe in a deity and they go for like lowest common denominator. I think what the crec is trying to do is aim for the highest comp the highest common denominator, which is. We have these great reformed creeds.

Uh, the westminster confession of faith the three forms of unity. Um, the 39 articles the london baptist confession um. And and each church that comes into the crec has to hold to the three um ecumenical creeds, you know, nicene creed apostles creed definition of chalcedon.

And they also have to adopt into their constitution one of those reformed creeds that is stipulated in the crec. Now we recognize that that's going to cause tension. Between churches, but we think it's workable because we're saying good fences make good neighbors.

We know that we're a westminster confession of faith church, and we know that you're a london baptist confession church um, and because we now know where each of us sit we can labor together for the gospel we can label labor together for.

Um, uh this this vision of christ being king over our nation. We can labor for the conversion of souls and the raising of godly families. We can labor together in these things even while we work through these finer points of difference specifically in regards to the sacraments of baptism and the lord's supper um because predominantly in the crec were also pedo communion most churches in the crec would Administer the lord's supper to baptized.

Um children kind of as soon as they're as soon as the baby is um Tracking with the service. Um, they're not asleep in the car seat anymore Um, we would those those who uh have come through the door should get to eat at the table is is the broad um view in the crec and there's a few um.

A few churches that are credo communion. And so that's another bridge that we have to have to work through of how do we? Play nicely with each other in regards to to those situations. Yeah.

All right, so so. Forgive me if if I ask the this question and I missed any things. Um, sure. So I guess this will be more for clarification. Um this this concept is very intriguing to me and it and it sounds like a A third podcast that we could have you back on to discuss because because dan and I have talked about this before.

Um, we're both holding to the post-millennial view. Yeah, and what does that look like for? Uh, I guess we would start out with the presbyterian and baptist if we all believe we're going in one direction.

Um, we're all you know heading towards zion. We're eventually going to look more and more alike. Right as we come towards christ and so maybe one day we can touch on that and what that may look like and.

And that process and and how you guys are thinking through what you you just described. Yeah, but on this issue of pastoral ordination um.

Do you guys have? Baptists at christ church reform baptist at christ church. Yeah, we do. We've got um a good handful of them. Um, uh, we've got um. And we've had uh, we've had them as as church officers as deacons and as as elders um so it's not a um, it wouldn't be a uh.

It we wouldn't say to a baptist. Um man, who's got his family in order who's faithful teacher of scripture and And everybody looks up to him. Um, we would say well because you um hold the london baptist confession, you know.

You're not welcome here. Well, no way specifically as a parish elder. I think we would want to uh make use of a godly man, um in our in our midst if his care if his character is above reproach if he's Faithful and godly.

Um. Now what that would mean is christ church, um holds to the westminster confession of faith that would mean a credo baptist elder or pastor um would have to Be humble enough and willing enough to say i'm i'm happy to This is what you're going to teach.

This is what you're going to hear from the pulpit is sort of westminsterian. Um, uh doctrine um, and if he's happy to say i'm a baptist, but i'm happy to leave that stuff, um sort of on the side or hold it, um.

Hold it without causing trying to create the little um credo baptist, uh party over here, right? Um. We we can get along. Um, and we can be be fine and say he's we we love him and he can fill the pulpit occasionally and he can um, okay, um,.

But but the standards for what we're going to teach would be westminsterian Gotcha.

So you wouldn't you wouldn't require then a reformed baptist who has taken one of those positions to have them. Have their children take communion or be baptized. No, they could hold those convictions in their families.

They just wouldn't form those. Um divisive.

Right, yeah, if they're trying to form like a First baptist church of the of the broom closet. Yeah. Then we would we'd say hey. Um, what can we do to help you plant a baptist church down the street, you know, right, right but if he's if he's loved, you know loves the fellowship loves the.

Loves the teaching um winces a little bit when we get to ezekiel 36, you know, or. Uh deuteronomy 30 or whatnot if he he sort of struggles through those passages. We're happy to accommodate our credo baptist brothers um.

And and we would perform when their kids get old enough and make a credible profession of faith. We baptize them we've got some horse troughs around here that we haul out and do that by immersion and um.

Uh, you know, so we we accommodate that. Um. Because I think we have a lot more in common. When you look at london baptist confession and the westminster confession of faith. There's it's like copy paste with very sizable disagreements on baptism.

But it's one of those we've got a lot more in common we're cousins. Um, let's get along with each other um, the problem with like I said earlier with a lot of the ecumenicalism of liberal denominations is um.

Finding people you're not related to at all and then trying to get along, you know. It's not cousins that you're dealing with it's different species practically, you know, you're dealing with um, no, we can't have concord between hindus and and um and christians what what fellowship has christ with with the temple of idols, um.

So Yes credo baptist. Um. Families we've got a good handful of them at christ church and they love it and um, they know that they're the odd duck uh, but they're happy odd duck and we're happy to um baptize their kids when their kids make a profession of faith and and um.

And and it's. And at the same time every sunday when i'm passing out the lord's supper and I get to that row where the baptist family sits. And I hand the the elements to the father and the mother and maybe one or two of the older kids who have been baptized.

Um, I have to be humble enough to say to the to the little ones who aren't baptized yet. Um, not yet little one, you know, um, I have to be humble enough to bend a little bit in right. In my convictions, um, and so we're submitting one to another in that respect before bearing with one another even though I think it's um I think they should baptize their you know, I would think.

Their kids and they should give them the lord's supper but uh. But I want to not divide over the sign that unites us.

Yeah, and and if I if it is too much for one of your reformed baptist credo baptist, um brethren there then You know, they could lovingly go to one of the other churches in the crec that is a confessional.

Uh london baptist confession church, right? Or you know, you gave the example of help them start a first baptist church in in moscow and they could Potentially be in the cr. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Well, I mean, I I just think that's a beautiful relationship and a beautiful thing that you guys do.

Um, so and it's worked. Um, yeah, it's not without difficulty that you've got points where you have to Just like you do with your cousins, you know, you occasionally have Uh arguments and disagreements and you just have to uh Labor for the unity of the spirit, you know, we oftentimes, you know labor for the unity of the spirit and the bond of peace we talk about unity unity unity, but it's That that's that um phrase begins with a verb labor, um Exertion and that that takes work blood sweat and tears sometimes to um to say, okay.

We yeah, we can sign off on that what the crac adopted at our last council are every three years. We have our um All the all the presbyteries all the churches gathered together. And then there's delegates from each presbytery that are on council and that's how constitutional amendments are made um, they just passed, um sort of the first stage of I think a work A way in which this can work between churches that makes it a little bit more clear than it had been in our Constitution using the language that a baptist church holding to the london baptist confession could hold um that an infant baptism Is valid but improper.

Valid but improper um. And therefore receive a pato baptist family to their church wince a little bit that they're not um you sort of think they should have waited until there was a credible profession of faith, but acknowledge it as a valid but improper baptism like I like I would if there was a A group of teenagers at a summer camp and they get whizzed up about jesus and say let's go get baptized and they go out to the river and they They baptize one another in the name of the father son and holy spirit and you'd go well that was irregular, but um, we're gonna we're gonna count it, you know, we're gonna uh, we'll we'll uh, Obviously there may be situations where you wouldn't um, if it was not in the triune name or you know, it was there was some other monkey business going on, but There were drugs involved or something like that.

Um, but um but I would receive those baptisms as irregular, but um, but valid um, and so that's the language and that's actually joe rigney, um brought this to our attention as he's um, He's moved moved to moscow and he's uh coming into the crec.

He's obviously from a reformed baptist background um, and he pointed this out in the london baptist confession and in some of the The footnotes and appendices of the original documents of it all there was actually within england at the time when it was drafted um, that question was a live one for them like okay, we we love our Our reformed brethren here our presbyterian brethren here um.

And we've got their families in our churches. Do we excommunicate all these kids, you know, what do we do with these kids who are baptized? They didn't do anything, you know, like how do we how do we deal with it?

And so that's uh, joe rigney brought that to our attention I think he was the one that formulated that phrase of valid but improper. As a way in which I think a conscientious baptist Um could get along with us with the broader Crec who's presbyterian 98 percent of it is presbyterian but lbc church could um Could could have that work around so to speak.

Strengths, Weaknesses, and Evaluation of the Ordination Process

So in in thinking about uh, the uh the ordination process. In the crec. What do you think some of the the strengths are that you have? Over over maybe some of the ways that that other folks have done.

And what are some of the weaknesses that maybe you'd uh,. Like to kick around with some folks and maybe get them to tighten up a little bit or something.

Yeah, I think um. The difference, you know, obviously you've got the evangelical church in america. There's um, varying um. Degrees of um bars for entry if you might say like what is the what does the exam consist of there are denominations where it's um.

Hey, you're a warm body. You could be the pastor um, there's um. Fill out this form on a website and get your ordination certificate in the mail, you know, there's um, and then there's the much more thorough.

Um, which I think our thing ours is very thorough I think it's it's strong in that regard um the the written exam is thorough the the oral exam at presbytery and the Sort of practice exams with your ordination committee along the way are are thorough and they're um, they're robust.

Um I think. Uh, one of the things that we have ordination Candidates do is in the crec constitution. We have what's called memorials. Which are basically statements that aren't covered in the reformed confessions.

So things like abortion gay mirage six day, you know six day literal creation um various other topics that maybe aren't addressed clearly in in the various reformed confessions. Um, but which obviously in our day and age.

Um, we don't want to say this guy can spout off every jot and tittle of the westminster confession of faith but he's squishy when it comes to marriage or you know, um sexuality or to abortion. And so one of the I think the strengths is that we we care Quite a bit more about a man's character and his worldview um than his credentials.