June 18, 2018 Show with Dr. Tony Costa on “The Hebrew Roots Movement”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host Chris Arnson.

Good afternoon.

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania,.

Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at

ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Monday on this 18th day

of June 2018.

I'm so delighted to have back on the program today as a returning guest Dr.

Tony Acosta and by the way if anybody was

thinking we were going to have Dr. Stan Gale on the program today to

discuss his book The Christian's Creed.

Dr. Gale was very kind enough and gracious enough and flexible enough to switch

dates with us so he will be on a future program

yet to be announced as far as the dates concerned because we knew that we wanted to have Dr. Acosta on as quickly

as possible to promote two upcoming events where he will be speaking in New York

and so therefore I am delighted to have Dr. Acosta on right now.

He is professor of apologetics in Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary and due to popular

demand to find out what the Hebrew roots movement is all about we are going to be

discussing that phenomenon.

We've been getting people sending questions to the Iron Sharpens Iron program asking about the Hebrew roots movement and

I have been inadequate to respond and as have my guests because we don't

know anything about this movement other than it's dangerous but it's my honor and

privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Dr. Tony Acosta

and it's always a pleasure to have you on the program and I would like to introduce also co -hosting with

me via phone today is my new friend Andy Woodard

and he is also the pastor at New Covenant Church New York

City and he and I are cooperating on a special event in Manhattan at a

historic facility a 1 ,000 seat historic facility that goes at least back to the

1700s First Baptist Church of Manhattan or First Baptist Church of New York City as it

has historically been known and it's my honor and privilege to have you co -hosting with me for the

very first time Andy Woodard.

Thank you so much it's a pleasure to be on.

And am I pronouncing your last name correctly?

Yes that's correct there's only one w.

Yeah and it's Woodard or Woodard?

The second way.

Okay and also in studio with me is a friend of mine who has been on this

show a couple of times I believe Pastor George Jensen he is the lead pastor of the

Enola First Church of God in Enola Pennsylvania and it's great to have you back in the studio today as a

co -host Pastor George Jensen.

Thank you for having me Chris this is a pleasure.

And is this your how many times have you been on the program I can't remember.

I believe this is my second time.

Okay great and okay well let's first of all Dr. Costa before

we get into the main subject at hand let's hear about Toronto Baptist Seminary is in a summary form and

then we'll move on and ask Andy Woodard to explain or describe New Covenant

Church New York City and also Pastor Jensen will give a little description of Enola First Church of God

in Enola Pennsylvania but if we could start with you Dr. Tony Costa.

Yes the

Toronto

Baptist

Seminary that in

theology.

Praise

God

I can

remember

back in

the 90s when I.

Was having my organizing my debates with Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries on Long

Island and of course Dr. James White is a very close mutual friend of both of ours.

In fact I know that at least on one occasion when Dr. White was sick he had you as a

standby man to take his place at a debate with

the president.

I was supposed to take on Fred Horn.

That's right of Catholic Answers the president of Catholic Answers but Dr. White actually he

healed up by God's grace but you know you have to take a person seriously as an apologist

if James White has selected you as his standby man.

But anyway when I was having these debates on Long Island I don't remember exactly which one but

I remember I got an email from the Jarvis Street Baptist Church asking for information because there were

folks from there that wanted to fly out to Long Island to attend that debate.

I don't remember if they ever did but I clearly remember though because of the

historic nature of Jarvis Street Baptist Church I remember clearly getting the email from them.

This is long before I even knew you.

Right.

And if you could Andy Woodard tell us about New Covenant Church in New York City this new

work that by God's grace you have started there in the heart of Manhattan.

Yeah thank you.

New Covenant Church is a reformed.

Baptist church plant on East

area.

Sunday gathering was July the

one -year mark for that and then our first five members coming into together last November

and so by God's grace we're plodding along probably adding around one

member per month and

staining up so we look at.

Us for the next year and years to come.

Yes and I am excited to be working with you on this event coming up next month with Dr. Tony Costa which we will get

to in a moment but if you could to Pastor George Jensen tell us about the Enola First Church of

God in Enola Pennsylvania where.

You serve as the lead pastor.

Sure.

The Enola First Church of God is a member congregation of the Churches of God General Conference.

We're a denomination that started in the 1820s in Harrisburg

Pennsylvania as the result of a revival movement there in the second great awakenings

and the movement is pretty much confined to the northeast

and the midwest so that's why many folks have not heard about us but very much a strong

emphasis on the new birth the authority of the scriptures and many

essentials of the faith that are being lost by mainline denominations but we've kept to those

evangelical precepts I guess you'd say.

And the congregation itself is a typical established congregation well over 100 years old

about 200 people in the congregation and we just continue to do what God calls us to do to fill

out his purpose for us in that community.

And I have described the Church of God Findley Ohio the one you are

a member of as a Wesleyan Baptist group.

Would that be a fair way of describing it?

I believe that's very fair.

Yeah that's good.

Chris yes.

And not to be confused with the Church of God Cleveland Tennessee denomination which is a

Pentecostal denomination.

You are not a Pentecostal denomination.

That is correct.

Yeah in fact we preceded them.

The movement was the first denomination as far.

As we know to take the name Church of God yes.

And obviously we have New York City background sounds yeah sorry about that we

Dr. or should I say yeah I can say Dr.

Dr. Tony Costa has had a very strong influence very

recently on George Jensen's life and he thankfully

attended a debate that Tony Costa was involved in at my

invitation with Robert St. Genes another friend of mine who's a Roman Catholic a friend but not a brother in Christ

because he is a loyal Roman Catholic apologist as far as

his faithfulness to the Council of Trent which would put him in a different category

outside what I would believe biblical Christianity to be and outside the

the gospel.

And he knows that my friend Bob St. Genes knows that I do not recognize him as a brother in Christ but he knows that I

consider him a friend.

But they debated on the immaculate conception and perpetual

sinlessness of Mary and you did a remarkable job.

I really appreciate that Dr. Costa the way you not only handled yourself

with great intellect and information

and you were never stumbling and mumbling and fumbling you had very quick answers

to the questions posed to you and on at the same time you you held yourself with great

poise and humility and grace and I know that my

co -host today was starting to have questions favorable

leanings towards Roman Catholicism but but your debate actually thankfully put a

much greater wedge between my my co -host and the Church of Rome.

Was that accurate George?

That is accurate.

Yes the the debate that you did Dr. Costa that was very helpful.

And another was a.

Book by Richard Bennett and I know I won't say much but...

Far from Rome near to God or east of Eden?

East of Eden yes.

Well thank you all of you for being on the show today I'm very excited about it and before we go into the Hebrew

Roots movement I am excited to announce that Andy Woodard

and I Andy Woodard the aforementioned pastor of New Covenant Church New York City

and Iron Sherpins Iron Radio are presenting a free New York City seminar.

This is the first time that Iron Sherpins Iron has actually hosted or co -hosted

an event in Manhattan.

I've been present at many Manhattan events and had exhibitors booths at various places but this is the

first one where I am co -hosting along with Andy Woodard an event and I'm so delighted that Dr.

Tony Costa is our featured guest speaker.

That is going to be Friday July 6th from 6 30 p .m. to 10 p .m. and it's going to be held at the

facilities of the historic First Baptist Church of New York City which dates back to the

1700s.

I don't believe it was the same building when John Gano was the pastor but John Gano

was a personal chaplain of George Washington.

President George Washington at the time was General George Washington and he

was the pastor at the time of First Baptist Church of New York City which is located on

Manhattan's Upper West Side.

The first message that we will be hearing on Friday July 6th will be defending the faith in a post

-modern society.

The second will be the dangers of cultural Marxism's impact on society and the church

and that will be followed by a Q &A session with the audience participation

and if you have any more details you can either call or contact

Pastor Andy

Woodard at 646 -770 -2282 that's 646 -770 -2282 and his email address is

nccnycinfo at gmail .com that's ncc for New Covenant Church nyc

for New York City info at gmail .com or you can contact me Chris Arnzen at

chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

Chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

We're also orchestrating a intimate gathering of pastors over lunch

to have more of an informal and social time of fellowship with Dr. Costa where he

can also ask or should I say answer questions that pastors might have in a

more intimate setting and informal setting so we'll be giving you more updates on that but if you are a

pastor especially in if you're in New York City you can be from anywhere but especially if you have

no problem getting to the Upper West Side of New York City email me about that to chrisarnzen at

gmail .com but I'm very excited Pastor Andy Woodard and do you have

anything further that you'd like to add about this event that we are having together.

Yeah I'm just thrilled for the opportunity and the way things are are coming together.

Even rather quickly.

Amen.

Well the email address for you the listener right now to ask questions of Dr. Tony

Costa is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

Chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

And we are talking about the Hebrew Roots Movement.

And if you have a question please include your first name.

At least your city and state and country of residence.

I'm sorry.

Is anybody speaking to me.

I heard some background speaking there.

Yeah sorry about that.

That was just background noise.

Okay.

Uh.

And uh please give us your first name city and state and country of residence.

If you live outside the USA please only remain anonymous.

If you're asking about a personal and private matter let's say you have a loved one in the Hebrew Roots Movement or you

yourself are in the Hebrew Roots Movement.

You don't want to call attention to your own identity.

I understand that.

But other than that give us your first name city and state and country of residence.

Uh and by the way a message to both of my co -hosts Andy Woodard and George Jensen please feel

free to uh butt in with a question the moment you have one.

As long as there's a lull and you're not interrupting somebody.

Mid -sentence.

Please don't wait for me to acknowledge you and ask you to ask a question.

Just butt right into the conversation as you see a need to ask a question or you have

one that comes to mind.

And that's especially for you.

Andy since you're on the phone and I can't see you.

But uh Dr. Costa if you could tell us about the origins of what is known as the

Hebrew Roots Movement.

Who are the figures involved in starting this movement.

And what are the the crucial things that set them apart from biblical

Christianity that we need to know about.

Well I'd like to prep.

And of course I'm I'm assuming that you would agree though the the thing that kind of sets the Seventh -day

Baptist apart is that they are typically and have been historically typically not

hostile in their approach to those that disagreed with them.

In fact in fact uh John Gill the great particular Baptist of London

uh in the the 18th century he had a very close friendship with Dr. Samuel

Stennett who was a Seventh -day Baptist.

And they did pulpit exchanges with each other.

Yes

absolutely.

The Seventh -day

Baptists are not a

term and that

they should these

groups have

where it

really

gets

started.

Took

place

in the Worldwide Church of

God.

I here in Canada.

I.

By challenging the court

I remember going back

into the fold of

you.

But when that happened.

Chris what you find is there

was a huge claim to be

faithful.

Phenomena in

1994.

And have a website.

Hebrew Roots

Fundamental Zion

law.

The

majority

of

them

not

Jewish believers.

Be confused with Messianic Jews or Messianic community.

Be

members

of the Ten

Lost Tribes.

So there's a bit of.

Going on.

Really really.

And that's something that your typical Messianic Jew would be repulsed by the Anglo -Israelis.

Absolutely absolutely and so so.

In other words the the dominance of Gentiles.

Is almost by design rather than just

oh

oh.

The

reason why

this

is

followed by

in their

that that's

how they can

insist on

calling

Jesus Yeshua because of the fact.

Because we know that in in actuality his history proves that the the original

manuscripts of the New Testament were in Greek and therefore the name was Jesus in

the manuscript not Yeshua.

And

and

exactly

not just

the New

Testament.

All

right

we're

going

to go

to

our

first

break

right.

Now if you'd like to join us on the air the question of your own our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Don't go away we'll be right back with Tony Costa and the Hebrew Roots movement.

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iron radio.

And we are now back with our discussion today with dr tony costa of

toronto baptist seminary he is the professor of apologetics and islam at toronto baptist seminary.

We are not only discussing our major theme today the hebrew roots movement but we're also promoting a

special event that dr costa will be involved in in new york city on friday july

6th.

This is an event that is sponsored by new covenant church new york city and iron sharpens iron radio and

the themes will be defending the faith in a post -modern society the dangers of a cultural mark

the dangers of cultural marxism's impact on society in the church and a q a

involving the audience.

We are also organizing an intimate gathering of pastors to have lunch that afternoon at an

undetermined location right now.

But the event uh on friday july 6th 6 30 p .m will be held at

first baptist church of new york city on the upper west side of manhattan a very historic

church dating back to at least the 18th century and we're excited about being in

this 1 000 seat uh historic building for this event and email me at chris arnson at gmail

.com if you have any interest in attending the event that's chris arnson at gmail .com and

put a new york city event in the subject line.

But you could also use that email address to send a question for dr tony costa at chris arnson at

gmail .com.

Chris arnson at gmail .com and please give us your first name city and state and country of residence.

And uh george jensen is my in -studio co -host pastor

of the enola first church of god in enola pennsylvania.

And you had uh some experience with a church or movement here in

pennsylvania that troubled you that has a lot of resemblance to what dr costa is talking about.

Can you explain a little bit sure.

That's correct chris.

The movement that i came in contact with is a group called the assemblies of yahweh based

in bethel pennsylvania.

And um came into contact with this as i explained to you earlier involving uh an evangelistic effort in

schuylkill county pennsylvania.

And when we were looking to recommend potential new believers to churches we wanted to make sure we steered them

away from this group because much of it is like what dr costa talked about.

They insist on calling jesus yeshua god must be addressed as yahweh.

They do not believe in the trinity.

Just about everything that dr costa stated is with this group.

But this group is older than the 1990s.

It goes back to the 1960s so and it was part of that sacred name movement had

influence by the worldwide church of god uh seventh day adventists and others.

So uh even though it's not a hebrew roots movement it's still going strong and looks very similar to

the hebrew roots movement that's emerged since the 90s that dr costa talked about.

So this must.

Have been around for a while this this thinking yeah and i i don't know if it's the same movement that you're

describing but back in the 1990s when i worked for wmcu

wmca radio a an affiliate of salem media i befriended a couple on

long island who are from bayshore when their son was involved in some kind of

a cult in colorado where uh they you know said that they were

adhering to the old covenant law which was still binding and they went as far as

forbidding medicine and things like that.

And this young man their son died i believe he was a diabetic or something like that.

And he died because the the when he was um

in the hospital uh members of the group came and asked him if he leave

with them and he said yes and even though the parents were begging him

uh not to leave the police who were in the room because they called the police said that there was nothing that they could do

legally because he was voluntarily leaving and they they took the young man with them and he eventually

died and it was buried somewhere with an unmarked grave out in the deserts of colorado.

But anyway uh dr costa going back to what you were originally saying about

uh the sacred names movement and also uh the hebrew roots movement.

How are they.

Different now.

Uh would another

difference

be uh

that the

hebrew hebrew roots movement.

Is not.

You're not going to see a a house of worship somewhere with a sign necessarily saying hebrew roots

movement this is more of a movement that's affecting other churches.

Am i right to say.

That

yes uh

and that's

why now

we have

an

anonymous

listener who actually said that.

A relative of hers was involved in a nazarene congregation which is

basically a a traditionally recognized armenian wesleyan armenian

denomination and apparently this specific congregation was nearly overrun according to our listener

anonymously writing in by this hebrew roots movement.

Do you know of other circumstances or situations where like an entire congregation has.

Been

seduced.

And

yes

yes

eastern

church a

friend of mine who had come

yeah and

i took

this

is not unusual for them to come

in now.

You spoke uh somewhat in defense uh making sure that

you.

Weren't broad brushing when you were referring to messianic uh congregations and

individuals but that term is such a broad term it's really not

helpful because it's not a very specific term or movement.

Because you do.

I have found over the years that i have been a christian going back to the 80s you have a whole host of things going on under the

umbrella of messianic judaism.

Yeah.

You do have you do have some anti -trinitarian arians and

uh really uh judiazers under that umbrella now.

I'm not i'm not accusing most or all who wear that label of that i'm just saying that they can be

found identifying themselves as messianic jews.

Yeah yes very.

And the

trinity of

the deity of

christ uh i know

i know a

messianic congregation here in

toronto that had a very faithful

messianic

believer.

What happens

critically as

you

rightly noted heretics for judaism.

And they end up going

right back to judaism.

They're the author and.

And so you're

absolutely right we we we have to be careful with our terminology because uh not everything that

hails itself as evangelical is evangelical and not everything that hails itself.

Yeah we have to ask questions too.

I mean our listeners should be very if they get invited to a seder celebration

by a an organization calling itself a messianic jewish congregation they have to be

clear to ask a bunch of questions.

What is your view of the trinity.

What is your view of the d of christ.

What is your view of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in christ alone.

Uh right.

And i i have i have friends who are both jewish believers

and gentile believers in messianic works that are very orthodox.

We may have some disagreements.

Some of them are calvinistic.

Some of them are not yep but uh but my friend marty from who is now with the lord uh

who was the uh overseer of beth yeshua in uh

nassau county long island.

And it uh had several locations over the years in suffolk county and nassau county.

But he was very very opposed to the uh synagogue movement

within messianic judaism.

He did not like um uh the overseers of these congregations

calling themselves rabbi and and wearing yarmulkes investments the only the only time that that marty

did anything like that was during a seder or something like that.

Not because he felt that it was required but he was just trying to give the appearance

of how something was celebrated in a jewish home and so on.

And then he would point he would point to the fact of christ being our passover lamb.

And that's why there is no lamb uh served anymore since a .d 70

since the temple was destroyed.

There's no lamb.

At a

passover

meal.

Yes and even uh chosen people ministries was started by presbyterians evangelizing.

In brooklyn uh and mitch glazer the current president is a calvinist although he is.

Dispensationalist.

He's a calvinist.

Yes by

the way.

I wanted to ask pastor

andy

woodard i was just.

Curious.

I know that manhattan uh is quite a diverse uh

group of people living in manhattan probably more diverse than anywhere on the planet earth.

Uh.

But you uh he not he may not necessarily have been confronted with this yet.

Uh have you had any kind of contact by hebrew roots movement folks there in the heart of the big apple there.

Pastor woodard.

Um when i first.

Heard his name is that hebrew israelite because i've had quite a yeah the black

israelites is what.

You written right and and there are several people who have made that mistake.

It's not the same.

Heresy but it's a heresy nonetheless.

Yeah.

And i i had a number of interactions with seem to

embrace a very strange form of of quasi messianic judaism.

Um you they insist on only using the name yeshua.

Uh they will not eat pork they will not eat cheeseburgers um they celebrate

feast days and um.

Don't seem to go to a church of really any kind.

Um just sort of floating and drifting around uh religious groups

and um.

Yeah.

But i i don't know that i've had people who identify.

Yeah they.

Can't be saved because as we all know that we're in heaven alls we will be doing is eating pork and

cheeseburgers.

But.

But um yeah one of the things that you brought up uh and you also applied it to the sacred

names folks uh as far as using the term

yeshua and yahweh uh i believe.

Tony you said that the hebrew roots movement is not as strict as the sacred names group who actually i believe

according to my co -host george jensen he remembers that as being actually a salvific thing with the the

sacred names folks right that you had to use very much.

With the

assemblies

of yahweh that

group.

Yes.

Yeah

yeah very much

so in fact.

And yes they must be

used.

And we're

going

to

our midway break right now.

Our midway break is longer than our normal break.

Because of the fact that grace life radio 90 .1 fm in lake city florida requires of us

a 12 minute break uh where uh they play their own public service

announcements and commercials.

So please be patient as we take this elongated break.

Take this time not only to write questions for our guest dr tony costa on the hebrew roots movement but also

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Hi.

I'm pastor bill shishko inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's study every saturday from

12 noon to 1 p .m eastern time on wlie radio www

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Hi.

I'm buzz taylor frequent co -host with chris arnson on iron sharpens iron radio.

I would like to introduce you to my good friends todd and patty jennings at cvbbs which stands for cumberland valley

bible book service.

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And you will also get free shipping on your fifty dollar or more purchase if you mention

chris arnzen of iron sharpens iron radio.

Also i have some very important upcoming announcements or should i say announcements for

upcoming events uh two of which include dr tony costa.

First of all on sunday july 1st dr tony costa will be preaching at the hope

reformed baptist church of medford long island new york.

And he will be preaching uh at the sunday morning service for certain.

Uh dr costa do you know if you'll also be preaching in the afternoon or evening that day.

No i have not heard anything.

Okay differently.

Okay.

Well we know for now.

Okay.

And if you want more details on that event go to hope reformed li .net.

Hope reformed li which stands for long island .net that's the website for hope reform baptist church in medford

long island.

You can also call 631 -696 -5711 631 -696 -5711.

And then the following week uh actually the same week i should say uh the following friday

uh july 6th at 6 30 p .m uh dr costa will

be conducting a conference that is being sponsored by new covenant church in new york city.

The congregation where my co -host on the phone andy woodard is pastoring

and iron sharp design radio are cooperating on a free new york city seminar featuring dr tony costa

author and professor of apologetics and islam at toronto baptist seminary.

Friday july 6 6 30 p .m to 10 p .m.

The first message is on defending the faith in a post -modern society.

The second message is on the dangers of cultural marxism's impact on society and the church.

And the session after that will be a q a with the audience.

If you want more details on this event call 646 -770 -2282

646 -770 -2282.

Or you can email the new covenant church of new york city at ncc

nyc info at gmail .com.

That's ncc for new covenant church nyc for new york city info at

gmail .com.

Or you can email me at chris arnson at gmail .com chris arnson at gmail .com.

Then coming up in august the second through the fourth the fellowship

conference new england is being held in portland maine.

And this is a unique conference in that every speaker who is on the

roster there is going to be speaking on something entirely different or very different from the

speaker before him.

It is not one theme and it is featuring all believers in the doctrines of sovereign

grace.

At this conference the speakers include such men as pastor tim conway of grace

community church in san antonio texas.

My dear friend pastor mac tomlinson who has faithfully supported iron sharpens iron radio

for quite a while with his financial contributions.

He is pastor of providence chapel in denton texas.

He's also an author and a book editor and publisher.

Pastor jesse barrington who's going to be my guest again very soon on iron sharpens iron he's the pastor of grace life church in

dallas texas and pastor nate pickowitz who is an author and pastor at harvest bible church

in gilminton ironworks new hampshire.

If you want more details on registering for this conference go to fellowship conference new england .com.

Fellowship conference new england .com.

And again that conference is being held august 2nd through the 4th at the deering center community church

in portland maine.

Fellowship conference new england .com.

And then coming up in november the alliance of confessing evangelicals is having their annual quaker

town conference on reform theology at the grace bible fellowship church of quaker town pennsylvania.

The speakers include david garner ray ortlund richard phillips timothy gibson and

carlton wynn.

The theme is the glory of the cross.

If you'd like to register go to alliancenet .org alliancenet .org click on events and then click

on quaker town conference on reform theology.

I will have an exhibitor's booth there god willing.

So please greet me during a break at the quaker town conference on reform theology and tell the alliance of

confessing evangelicals that you heard about the conference from chris arnson please.

Uh then uh coming up in january an event that has come to be one of my

favorite times of the year that i look forward to with bated breath.

And i am excited about this year as well.

The g3 conference in atlanta georgia is being held thursday january

17th through saturday january 19th at the georgia international convention center in college

park georgia which is a suburb of atlanta.

The theme is the mission of god a biblical understanding of missions.

And they are expecting over 4 000 people.

And i am going to have an iron chirping's iron radio exhibitors booth there again god willing.

This will be my third year in a row.

Speakers include god willing paul washer john piper stephen lawson vody

baucom mark devere conrad and bayway tim challis phil johnson of john

macarthur's grace to you ministries josh bice the founder of the g3 conference which by the way stands for grace

gospel and glory todd friel of wretched tv and radio and more.

Uh please if you want to register for either attending the g3 conference or even having an

exhibitor's booth like i will have whether it's for your church your parachurch ministry your business

or something else that brings praise honor and glory to christ go to g3 conference dot com g3

conference dot com and please tell the folks there that you heard about them from chris arens and an iron trip and zion radio.

Last but not least it's my least favorite time of the program where i have to beg you for money.

We are uh in need of your contributions if iron sharpens iron radio is to remain on the air.

I thank god that my dear friends at battery depot .com linbrook

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That's not a very pretty sight but that's what i'm doing.

Not right now but i will be after the show's over again.

But uh but if you would like this show to remain on the air and you don't want us to see that you don't want to

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If you want to advertise with us send us an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

That's also the email address where you can send in a question to dr tony costa on the hebrew roots

movement.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us your name city and state and country of residence.

If you live outside of the good old usa please only remain anonymous.

If your question involves a personal and private matter and before we go to any

uh listener questions uh i would like uh to start off this uh

segment with a question from my co -host and studio pastor george jensen who has a

question of his own.

If you could george.

Uh keep going.

Okay yeah i think i'm on now.

Dr costa this uh group that i'm uh aware of in bethel pennsylvania assemblies of

yahweh which again as i explained earlier is more of a sacred name movement uh rather than

uh part of the 90s hebrew roots.

This uh group claims that the reason that one must call

a god yahweh or jesus yeshua and it's necessary for salvation strangely enough they claim

it's because hebrew is the language of heaven.

Now evidence uh to that is of course to the contrary.

It's a man -made tongue but uh do you have any uh idea.

I found this quite curious.

Where this comes from.

Where the the notion that hebrew is the the language of.

Heaven yes.

This idea

is that

the

hebrew

language

is a

humanity

had is

a

human

language.

Thank

you.

Okay we have rj in white plains new york who says many of my

messianic jewish friends will falsely accuse those of us who are reformed

who believe that the church is the fulfillment of israel as believing in

replacement theology a term that i have never heard at least in the united states.

Someone who is reformed and either ah or post -millennial use to describe themselves.

But it seems that what you are saying in regard to the hebrew roots movement that they may very well be

guilty of a replacement theology because if i'm not mistaken you said earlier that the

true israel israeli people are someone of a gentile background.

And if you could.

Further explain

that god has the

other view is

historically the

known as

covenant

theology and

in essence you called

new covenant.

What a mediating position the

the people of god

replaced is the

people of god and that the

hebrew roots

movement.

The odd

thing about them is they will

not

claim

that into

the olive

tree.

Yeah the

circumcision of

the

heart.

As paul as paul.

Discusses that a jew is not one necessarily outwardly uh

a true jew is one inwardly.

29 that's

another

text

right.

And we could do

a whole

program

on the

whole concept of what is.

So -called replacement theology.

I happen to believe that the church is a fulfillment of israel uh.

And and i do not believe though that it somehow replaces it.

Because when you use that terminology it sounds like you are saying gentiles are

replacing jews.

And that's usually what.

That's right.

That's usually what even our biblically orthodox messianic brethren when they are falsely accusing

those who are not dispensationalists uh as being anti -semitic they are thinking we are

saying that gentiles replace jews.

But.

But obviously if we are grafted in it has to be the church.

Because how could we be grafted into the nation of israel.

But uh that's right.

But but going back to our our listeners question i don't know if uh i could

clare if i could clearly understand a direct answer to one part of this question.

He seemed to be wondering if you were saying that the hebrew roots movement are in fact

claiming that gentiles have replaced the jews as the people of israel.

Okay.

No.

No they're.

They're not saying

that at all that's

why they don't

them in that the

calf

being

cooked in

its mother's milk right in its mother's milk.

To refer to uh not

eating

dairy.

That

was simply.

That's

exactly what

i'm having for

dinner tonight

actually.

And remember the rabbis today are the modern day and right

now.

Now is this the pharisees produce rabbinic judaism so so the but the hebrew roots movement though they claim

to be christian be christian

but now does the.

Messiah in their mind like the word christian but is the messiah yeshua

is he god.

No so they're.

Arian denied.

Many of them denied the dvd of christ

some of them will affirm it and i'm.

Assuming that they believe salvation uh lies in their obedience to the law the old covenant law.

Ah it

sounds

something like i heard somewhere.

Hmm where was that the council of trent.

Yeah.

Okay we are going to our final break.

It's going to be much briefer than the others.

If you want to uh join us on the air with a question of your own as we're running out of time our email address is chrisarnson at gmail

.com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

God willing we'll be right back with more of dr tony costa and our discussion on the hebrew roots

movement.

So please do not go away road to the church at galatia for am i now seeking the approval of man

or of god or am i trying to please.

If i were still trying to please man i would not be a servant of christ.

Hi.

I'm mark lukens pastor of providence baptist church.

We are a reformed baptist church and we hold to the london baptist confession of faith of 1689.

We are in nofolk massachusetts.

We strive to reflect paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how god views what we say and what we do

than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity but since that wasn't the apostles priority it must not be ours either.

We believe by god's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be

vessels of christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of christ in truth and

love.

If you live near norfolk massachusetts or plan to visit our area please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750.

That's 508 -528 -5750.

Or go to our website to email us.

Listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our tv program entitled resting in grace you can find

us at providence baptist church ma .org.

That's providence baptist church ma .org or even on sermonaudio .com.

Providence baptist church is delighted to sponsor.

Iron sharpens iron radio

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717 -697 -1981 or visit

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Solid rock remodeling bringing new life to your home.

Hi.

I'm pastor bill shishko inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's study every saturday from

12 noon to 1 p .m eastern time on wlie radio www

.wlie540am .com.

We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in

with your questions.

Our time will be lively useful and i assure you never dull.

Join us this saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study.

Because everyone needs a pastor charles heddon's

virgin once said.

Give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He will not use the thoughts of other men's brains.

Proves he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to heart.

The mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and

future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since it's beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ exalting

books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com that's solid

-ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you

can unearth from solid ground.

Solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio.

And don't forget with all the holidays coming up and anniversaries and all kinds of things please remember solid

-ground -books .com as your number one resource for gifts for those

whom you love.

That's solid -ground -books .com solid -ground -books .com.

You can also go to my other sponsor's website cumberland valley bible book service at cvbbs

.com cvbbs .com which stands for cumberland valley bible book service.

And you can order books published by solid ground christian books since solid ground christian books is a publisher

and cvbbs .com is a book distributor so even when you purchase from cvbbs .com please

do the bulk of your purchasing.

For titles that are published by solid ground christian books you can make your list your shopping

list at solid -ground -books .com and then go to cvbbs .com and order those

books that will hasten you reaching the 50 mark to be uh

eligible for the free shipping and the free book by derek thomas that we mentioned earlier.

We are now back with our guest dr tony costa a professor of apologetics and islam at

toronto baptist seminary.

We are addressing the hebrew roots movement.

In studio with me is pastor george jensen lead pastor of the enola first church of god in enola pennsylvania.

On phone with me is my other co -host pastor andy woodard

who is the pastor of new covenant church new york city.

And our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com chris arnzen at gmail .com and pastor

andy before we go to any of our listeners waiting online to have their questions asked

and answered.

You had a question.

Yeah dr cuffsid.

Uh you might have.

Mentioned this earlier but i missed it.

Um do the hebrew roots movement uh followers identify themselves in that

way or do they know themselves to be hebrew movement followers.

Or would we as believers just realize that or

recognize that through listening and observation.

You mean like.

For instance the mormons were originally called mormons and as a as a phrase of

derision and they eventually loved it and accepted it just in fact puritans as well.

I believe the word puritan was originally an insult and then the the very people they

were insulting came came to claim.

That as

their

title themselves.

Yeah

right

right.

Well thank you

andy.

Are you

finished or

do you.

Need anything clarified there.

No that's that's perfect thank you.

Okay we have bb in cumberland county pennsylvania and bb says how

would the best way to initially bring someone from this movement who is trying to evangelize

us to the fact that jesus christ is more than just a messiah.

But he is actually god and he is a member of the

triune godhead.

I would take them.

And uh we're made it very clear

thing with

moses and all

the prophets.

He interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself in

verse 44.

Then he said to them these are my words that i said everything written about me

in the law of moses must be fulfilled.

Then he opened their minds to understand

teaching us to read the old test to read

the old testament through the eyes of jesus

and to

see jesus

centerpiece

about him.

Nothing was

made.

We have

cj in

lindenhurst

long.

Island.

Who says do those in the hebrew roots movement believe that the

epistles of paul are indeed god -breathed.

If so how can they possibly get around paul's rebuke.

Very strongly.

Against the judaizers

who he

anathematizes

to hell.

Number one of

eight is the view that.

Well like for instance even orthodox christians like myself we believe we believe

that in the words of christ those who love me will keep my commandments but we do not believe the

ceremonial.

Law of the old covenant is a part of those commandments today

word commandments it it triggers in

their

mind my commandments.

What we need

to understand is

one another as

quite the new

commandment says let

me keep my commandment

or if you're not your motive

we have

problem is

in the

new

covenant given to us directly by the lord jesus and

through his we

must

keep.

And we have

harrison and mechanicsburg pennsylvania who asks it are there any old.

Covenant laws.

You can point to when discussing theology with the hebrew roots movement

advocates that they themselves are overlooking that would condemn them by their own words.

Well yes that's.

Why paul

said going

to obey those

commandments.

Because many of those commandments were related to the temple.

Many of those commandments were related to the land of israel the

priesthood and

he's

under the mosaic administer of levi.

He comes from the tribe of

judah and the book of hebrews argues that jesus is part

of the

superior

of the new

covenant.

Must lie

fallow for the

land must lie fallow

on the.

Let's

see here we have arnie in perry county pennsylvania and arnie in.

Perry county pennsylvania says.

Do those who are advocates of the hebrew roots movement by and large reject

the rest of christendom as being false and damned.

Wow.

So they're not like ecumenists they're uh they're.

They're saying that we have a false gospel and a false god just like the watch.

Towers yeah except the.

The mormons have changed their public relations and they pretend now.

That they are just another denomination which is not what they started out as.

That's right uh let's see.

Here we have we have

ronald in eastern suffolk county pennsylvania.

Whatever happened with your student who became a member of this heber roots movement i must have missed.

Something and i

challenged them

on.

Did deny.

Uh let's see.

Here we have an

anonymous

listener.

Uh the anonymous listener says i am so happy to hear about new covenant church in new york city because the churches

that i know of that claim to be reformed seem to be leaning towards all kinds of liberal ideas

including critical race theory.

I was wondering what pastor andy woodard has to.

Say about that thank you for

that uh friday

night july 6th.

Um the things that he's going to be talking about.

Um we are not into critical race theory.

Um yet we still have a diverse congregation.

Um we are not into cultural marxism yet.

We have very poor people in our church and have off -street bankers in our church.

Um so we we take a much more uh forgive me for saying this but

history and the gospel and that we think that if we

preach christ crucified then uh people will be united and uh racial tensions

will be resolved by christ.

You know we're not

forgiveness specific.

But well we could make sure that uh that listener that anonymous

listener has your website and that website once again is ncc for new covenant

church dot nyc.

For new york city.

Yeah ncc dot nyc.

Thank.

You very and i didn't.

I'd like to invite them to reach out to me uh my personal email address is pastor andy dot

pastor andy dot nyc at gmail .com and i also want to take this opportunity quickly.

Before i either forget or run out of time but uh pastor andy woodard

and gary rosenblatt who is not only a preacher and treasurer but also a

treasurer there at the new covenant church of new york city they will be my guests this friday

uh june 22nd 4 to 6 p .m to discuss the challenges of being a

biblically faithful church in a urban area like new york city that

is probably the most liberal and culturally and religiously diverse area on the planet

earth.

So i'm looking forward to pastor andy and gary being with us

this friday the 22nd of june 4 to 6 p .m eastern time.

Before i take any more of our listener questions we have a few more.

Uh dr tony costa i want you to summarize with about in about four to five minutes

time under uninterrupted what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today

before we go off the air.

Yes i.

The

redeemer to

be the

savior was

anyone

at the time

of this call

for

neither

circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision

but keeping the commandments of god each one should remain in the condition

in which

he was.

Well we

have susan

margaret

in

dauphin

county

pennsylvania.

Who wants.

To know what do the hebrew roots movement people believe about the death

of christ the resurrection.

Of christ and the ascension of christ.

Well i i

must i

must

i'm assuming

that you

would agree.

However the thing that would as heretical and apostate as the church of rome is

official.

Officially they do believe that christ was the god man who who died

on calvary and that it was.

Only

yeah

during

that all the

reformers the magistrate reformers

were all and

uh in due.

Time they do leave the church of rome.

Yeah.

And uh of course.

If one were to ask pope francis where do you think the advocates of the hebrew

roots movement will be after they die he would.

Say heaven well yes.

Well if atheists can make it uh they don't believe it in god right.

And if the.

Catholic catechism.

The modern -day catholic catechism says that uh anti -trinitarian orthodox jews

and muslims adore the same god and that they will be in heaven with us.

Well then why wouldn't a hebrew roots person be there.

Um exactly uh let's see here.

We have john and banger maine who wants to know if

are there any buzz phrases and words and things that may be very unique to the

hebrew roots movement that will make us aware that they are in fact a.

Part of that movement if they

don't

mention

it some

of them uh

now we

have

to go back again.

Though to do some clarification there are many messianic jews who do the same thing

but the difference would be that they would rarely say somebody is lost if they did not use those

words.

Correct.

And and

it's understandable

why.

And

and my

own

idol.

Ha ha ha ha.

And when i share.

When i share the gospel with him i will use words like snark and uh and these are

terms that he can resonate with.

I e s h u they drop out

the word yes you.

Wow i never

knew

that.

A lot of

nasty things in there as well.

But we have

christopher.

And suffolk county long island new york.

And christopher asks do the hebrew roots movement.

Followers believe that

orthodox jews

are saved the

messiah.

Well we are out of time and i want.

To make sure that our listeners have all the contact information that they need for all of our participants today.

First of all toronto baptist seminary can be found at tbs .edu

tbs for toronto baptist seminary .edu.

The new covenant church new york city can be found at ncc .nyc.

That's ncc for new covenant church and nyc for new york city ncc dot

nyc.

And the uh the church where my co uh host in studio

george jensen uh he is the pastor of the first church of god uh the

enola first church of god in enola pennsylvania.

And that uh website is and for some reason oh let's see

here.

Oh it's enola cog .com.

That's right.

That's e n o l a c o g .com.

And uh dr tony i mean i'm sorry.

Yeah dr tony costa do you have any more contact information that you care to share.

Well i've gotta definitely have you back on to discuss the black israelite issue which is an different subject

although equally as heretical and damnable.

I want to thank all of you guys for being on the show today.

Uh it was great to see you again.

Pastor george jensen.

Thank you and thank you for treating me to lunch today.

I look forward to having you back on the program as soon as possible especially if you treat me to lunch

again.

And i want to thank uh andy woodard and i want to tell you that i'm looking forward to you

being my first time guest this friday god willing june 22nd.

Thank you with gary rosenblatt your treasurer and fellow evangelist there at new covenant church new york city.

And of course and of course dr costa.

I look forward to seeing you on july 6th.

Friday july 6th at 6 30 p .m at the first baptist church of new york city on the upper west

side of manhattan.

And also i want to remind our listeners that he will be at hope reform baptist church in medford long

island the sunday before that sunday july 1st in medford long island.

And you can go to hope reformed li .net for more information on that speaking engagement hope reform li

.net.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner.