June 18, 2018 Show with Dr. Tony Costa on “The Hebrew Roots Movement”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday. On this 18th day of June 2018,

I'm so delighted to have back on the program today as a returning guest Dr.

Tony Acosta, and by the way, if anybody was thinking we were going to have

Dr. Stan Gale on the program today to discuss his book,

The Christian's Creed, Dr. Gale was very kind enough and gracious enough and flexible enough to switch dates with us, so he will be on a future program yet to be announced as far as the date's concerned, because we knew that we wanted to have

Dr. Acosta on as quickly as possible to promote two upcoming events where he will be speaking in New York, and so therefore

I am delighted to have Dr. Acosta on right now. He is professor of apologetics in Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary, and due to popular demand to find out what the

Hebrew roots movement is all about, we are going to be discussing that phenomenon. We've been getting people sending questions to the

Iron Sharpens Iron program asking about the Hebrew roots movement, and I have been inadequate to respond, and as have my guests, because we don't know anything about this movement other than it's dangerous, but it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.

Tony Acosta. It's always a pleasure to be with you, Chris. And it's always a pleasure to have you on the program, and I would like to introduce also co -hosting with me via phone today is my new friend

Andy Woodard, and he is also the pastor at New Covenant Church, New York City, and he and I are cooperating on a special event in Manhattan at a historic facility, a 1 ,000 -seat historic facility that goes at least back to the 1700s,

First Baptist Church of Manhattan, or First Baptist Church of New York City as it has historically been known.

And it's my honor and privilege to have you co -hosting with me for the very first time, Andy Woodard.

Hey, Chris. Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be on. And am I pronouncing your last name correctly? Yes, that's correct.

There's only one W. Yeah, and it's Woodard or Woodard? The second way.

Okay, and also in studio with me is a friend of mine who has been on this show a couple of times,

I believe, Pastor George Jensen. He is the lead pastor of the Enola First Church of God in Enola, Pennsylvania, and it's great to have you back in the studio today as a co -host,

Pastor George Jensen. Thank you for having me, Chris. This is a pleasure. And is this your, how many times have you been on the program?

I can't remember. I believe this is my second time. Okay, great. And R .K.,

let's, first of all, Dr. Costa, before we get into the main subject at hand, let's hear about Toronto Baptist Seminary in a summary form, and then we'll move on and ask

Andy Woodard to explain or describe New Covenant Church, New York City, and also

Pastor Jensen will give a little description of Enola First Church of God in Enola, Pennsylvania.

But if we could start with you, Dr. Tony Costa. Yes. So Toronto Baptist Seminary is a reformed

Baptist seminary that began in the 1930s by Dr. T .T.

Shields, who was the senior pastor at the Jarvis Street Baptist Church in Toronto, and it is a seminary that is dedicated to training young men and women in theology, in missiology, apologetics, a number of other disciplines.

We also train men for the ministry to go out and be faithful pastors. And so we've been around for about, well, they're going to be celebrating their 200th anniversary in October, and so it's been a faithful seminary through the years.

Dr. T .T. Shields once said that if the seminary were ever to go liberal, shut it down.

And so I thank God that it has throughout the years, it has been faithful to the scriptures and to the doctrines of grace.

Praise God. I can remember back in the 90s when I was organizing my debates with Dr.

James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries on Long Island, and of course Dr. James White is a very close mutual friend of both of ours.

In fact, I know that at least on one occasion when Dr. White was sick, he had you as a standby man to take his place at a debate with the president of Catholic Answers, the president of Catholic Answers.

But Dr. White, actually, he healed up by God's grace. But you know you have to take a person seriously as an apologist if James White has selected you as his standby man.

But anyway, when I was having these debates on Long Island, I don't remember exactly which one, but I remember

I got an email from the Jarvis Street Baptist Church asking for information because there were folks from there that wanted to fly out to Long Island to attend that debate.

I don't remember if they ever did, but I clearly remember though because of the historic nature of Jarvis Street Baptist Church, I remember clearly getting the email from them.

This is long before I even knew you. Right, right. And if you could,

Andy Woodard, tell us about New Covenant Church in New York City, this new work that by God's grace you have started there in the heart of Manhattan.

Yeah, thank you. New Covenant Church is a Reformed Baptist church plant. We are meeting in the

Midtown East area of Manhattan. We started holding services almost one year ago.

Our very first Sunday gathering was July 2nd last year, and so we're approaching the one -year mark for that, and then our first five members covenanted together last

November. And so by God's grace, we've been slowly plodding along, probably adding around one member per month.

Since then, today we have 11 members, and the Lord is faithful, and he's been providing and sustaining us.

So we are excited to see what God has for the next year and years to come. Yes, and I am excited to be working with you on this event coming up next month with Dr.

Tony Acosta, which we will get to in a moment. But if you could, Pastor George Jensen, tell us about the

Enola First Church of God in Enola, Pennsylvania, where you serve as the lead pastor. Sure.

The Enola First Church of God is a member congregation of the Churches of God General Conference.

We're a denomination that started in the 1820s in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania as the result of a revival movement there in the

Second Great Awakenings, and the movement is pretty much confined to the

Northeast and the Midwest, so that's why many folks have not heard about us. But very much a strong emphasis on the new birth, the authority of the

Scriptures, and many essentials of the faith that are being lost by mainline denominations, but we've kept to those evangelical precepts,

I guess you'd say. And the congregation itself is a typical established congregation, well over 100 years old, about 200 people in the congregation, and we just continue to do what

God calls us to do to fill out His purpose for us in that community. And I have described the

Church of God, Findley, Ohio, the one you are a member of, as a Wesleyan Baptist group.

Would that be a fair way of describing it? I believe that's very fair. Yeah, that's good, Chris, yes.

And not to be confused with the Church of God Cleveland, Tennessee denomination, which is a

Pentecostal denomination. You are not a Pentecostal denomination. That is correct, yeah. In fact, we preceded them.

The movement was the first denomination, as far as we know, to take the name Church of God, yes. And obviously we have

New York City background sounds. Yeah, sorry about that. Dr.,

or should I say, yeah, I can say Dr. Tony Costa has had a very strong influence very recently on George Jensen's life, and he thankfully attended a debate that Tony Costa was involved in at my invitation with Robert St.

Genes, another friend of mine who's a Roman Catholic. A friend, but not a brother in Christ, because he is a loyal Roman Catholic apologist, as far as his faithfulness to the

Council of Trent, which would put him in a different category outside what

I would believe Biblical Christianity to be, and outside the the gospel.

And he knows that. My friend Bob St. Genes knows that. I do not recognize him as a brother in Christ, but he knows that I consider him a friend.

But they debated on the immaculate conception and perpetual sinlessness of Mary, and you did a remarkable job.

I really appreciate that, Dr. Costa, the way you not only handled yourself with great intellect and information, and you were never stumbling and mumbling and fumbling.

You had very quick answers to the questions posed to you, and at the same time, you held yourself with great poise and humility and grace.

And I know that my co -host today was starting to have questions, favorable leanings towards Roman Catholicism, but your debate actually, thankfully, put a much greater wedge between my co -host and the

Church of Rome. Is that accurate, George? That is accurate, yes. The debate that you did,

Dr. Costa, that was very helpful. And another was a book by Richard Bennett. I won't say much, but...

Far From Rome, Near to God, or East of Eden? East of Eden, yes. Well, thank you, all of you, for being on the show today.

I'm very excited about it. And before we go into the Hebrew Roots Movement, I am excited to announce that Andy Woodard and I, Andy Woodard, the aforementioned pastor of New Covenant Church, New York City, and Iron Sherpins Iron Radio, are presenting a free

New York City seminar. This is the first time that Iron Sherpins Iron has actually hosted or co -hosted an event in Manhattan.

I've been present at many Manhattan events and had exhibitors booths at various places, but this is the first one where I am co -hosting, along with Andy Woodard, an event.

And I'm so delighted that Dr. Tony Costa is our featured guest speaker. That is going to be

Friday, July 6th, from 6 .30 p .m. to 10 p .m., and it's going to be held at the facilities of the historic

First Baptist Church of New York City, which dates back to the 1700s.

I don't believe it was the same building when John Gano was the pastor, but John Gano was a personal chaplain of George Washington, President George Washington, who at the time was

General George Washington, and he was the pastor at the time of First Baptist Church of New York City, which is located on Manhattan's Upper West Side.

The first message that we will be hearing on Friday, July 6th, will be defending the faith in a post -modern society.

The second will be the dangers of cultural Marxism's impact on society and the church.

And that will be followed by a Q &A session with the audience participation.

And if you have any more details, you can either call or contact Pastor Andy Woodard at 646 -770 -2282.

That's 646 -770 -2282. And his email address is nccnycinfo at gmail .com.

That's NCC for New Covenant Church, NYC for New York City, info at gmail .com.

Or you can contact me, Chris Arnzen at chrisarnzen at gmail .com. chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

We're also orchestrating an intimate gathering of pastors over lunch to have more of an informal and social time of fellowship with Dr.

Cost, where he can also ask, or should I say, answer questions that the pastors might have in a more intimate setting and informal setting.

So we'll be giving you more updates on that. But if you are a pastor, especially if you're in New York City, you can be from anywhere, but especially if you have no problem getting to the

Upper West Side of New York City, email me about that to chrisarnzen at gmail .com. But I'm very excited,

Pastor Andy Woodard. And do you have anything further that you'd like to add about this event that we are having together?

Yeah, I'm just thrilled for the opportunity and the way things are coming together, even rather quickly.

Amen. Well, the email address for you, the listener right now, to ask questions of Dr.

Tony Costa is chrisarnzen at gmail .com. chrisarnzen at gmail .com. And we are talking about the

Hebrew Roots movement. And if you have a question, please include your first name, at least your city and state and country of residence.

I'm sorry, is anybody speaking to me? I heard some background speaking there.

Yeah, sorry about that. That was just background noise. Okay. And please give us your first name, city and state and country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Please only remain anonymous if you're asking about a personal and private matter. Let's say you have a loved one in the

Hebrew Roots movement, or you yourself are in the Hebrew Roots movement, you don't want to call attention to your own identity.

I understand that. But other than that, give us your first name, city and state and country of residence. And by the way, a message to both of my co -hosts,

Andy Woodard and George Jensen, please feel free to butt in with a question the moment you have one as long as there's a lull and you're not interrupting somebody mid -sentence.

Please don't wait for me to acknowledge you and ask you to ask a question.

Just butt right into the conversation as you see a need to ask a question or you have one that comes to mind.

And that's especially for you, Andy, since you're on the phone and I can't see you. But Dr. Costa, if you could tell us about the origins of what is known as the

Hebrew Roots movement, who are the figures involved in starting this movement, and what are the crucial things that set them apart from biblical

Christianity that we need to know about? Well, I'd like to preface my argument by first stating that there really is nothing new under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 1 and the book of Ecclesiastes in general points out that there is nothing new under the sun.

All modern -day heresies are simply recycling of ancient heresies that the

Church confronted. So all the cults, whether you're talking about Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons or Christian tribes, all of these cults are simply revivals of ancient heresies.

And so what we find in the Hebrew Roots movement is basically a revival of the

Galatian heresy. This is the Judaizers in 21st -century

Garp. And what we find with the Hebrew Roots movement is that it's a difficult movement to pin down, because they really don't have a centralized headquarters, they don't have a centralized movement.

There's actually many movements within the Hebrew Roots movement, but where it really originated, we'd have to kind of go back about 80 years or so.

So let me just start off by saying that there have been a number of Sabbatarian groups throughout history.

Probably the most famous are the Seventh -day Adventists, and their emphasis, of course, is in the observance of the

Seventh -day Sabbath. And so Seventh -day Adventists believe that Saturday or the Sabbath, from Friday night to Saturday night, is the only acceptable day of worship.

And we've also seen Sabbatarian groups even in Baptist camps. The Seventh -day Baptists, although they remain a small group, they're still around.

They emphasize the Seventh -day worship and observing the Sabbath as God's holy day.

And of course, I'm assuming that you would agree, though, the thing that kind of sets the

Seventh -day Baptists apart is that they are typically, and have been historically, typically not hostile in their approach to those that disagreed with them.

In fact, John Gill, the great particular Baptist of London in the 18th century, he had a very close friendship with Dr.

Samuel Stennett, who was a Seventh -day Baptist, and they did pulpit exchanges with each other.

Yes, absolutely. The Seventh -day Baptists are not aggressive or legalistic as the

Seventh -day Adventists are. But what I'm trying to say is that there's always been this idea of Sabbatarianism, the idea that the

Seventh -day should be observed rather than the First -day. And then we also have to consider, there was a group that started off back in 1937 called the

Sacred Knee Movement. This is a group that emphasizes that Christians should not use the name

Jesus because they believe it's a pagan term and that they should not refer to God as the Lord. They should use words like Yahweh.

Jesus should be called either Yeshua or Yahoshua. And these groups have also tended to be

Sabbatarian, but also, by extension, they also observe the Jewish feast days like Passover, Tabernacles, and Pentecost.

But then where it really gets started, Chris, is with the Worldwide Church of God in the 1930s with Herbert W.

Armstrong. It was known also as the Radio Church of God. And what happened is that this group was known for its legalism to the point that they not just observed the

Seventh -day Sabbath, they also observed all the feast days. They observed the dietary laws of the

Old Testament as well. And then in the late 1980s, early 1990s, there was a huge shift that took place in the

Worldwide Church of God. Here in Canada, I participated in the change by challenging the

Canadian chapter of the Worldwide Church of God in Vancouver about Armstrong's heretical teaching and so forth.

I remember going back and forth with some of their directors out here in Canada, and it was around this time that you started to see the

Worldwide Church of God moving away from the heretical teachings of Armstrong and coming into the fold of evangelical

Christianity. But when that happened, Chris, what you find is there was a huge splintering within the

Armstrong cult where it broke into various groups like the United Church of God, the Restored Church of God, and so forth, groups that claimed to be faithful to Herbert W.

Armstrong, and they all had one thing in common. They observed, again, the Jewish law, the

Old Testament laws. It's from this phenomena in the early 90s and mid -90s that we start to see the emergence of what we call the

Hebrew Roots Movement. And the first folks to refer to this group as the Hebrew Roots Movement was a couple.

The name is Dean and Susan Willock. In 1994, they started this movement that they called the

Hebrew Roots Movement. They even published a Hebrew Roots magazine in 1998. They even have a website,

HebrewRoots .net, and on this website, they have even an annual liturgical reading of the

Torah. They're very Torah -oriented. It's all about the first five books of Moses, and the idea here is that the

Old Testament is absolutely fundamental to understand the New Testament, rather than the

New Testament interpreting the Old Testament. Now, here's the problem, Chris. There's so many of these groups around.

There's another group called 119 Ministries. They have a massive

YouTube channel, 119 Ministries, established in 2010, and they're headquartered in Tampa, Florida.

This group has put out hundreds of videos justifying why Christians should be observing the

Mosaic Law, and their numbers are growing. They hail about 300 ,000 members as being part of this group, and the majority of them are

Gentile believers. That is to say, they're not Jewish believers. They should not be confused with Messianic Jews or Messianic communities, because there are

Jewish people who believe in the Lord Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Some of them are still following Torah, and they observe

Shabbat, the Sabbath, and so forth, as means to reach out to their people, but the

Hebrew Roots movement are by far mostly Gentile adherents. So basically, some of them even claim to be members of the

Ten Lost Tribes. So there's a bit of British Israelism, Anglo -Israelism, that Herbert Armstrong also made famous going on in this group.

Really? And that's something that your typical Messianic Jew would be repulsed by the Anglo -Israelis?

Absolutely. Absolutely. And so... So in other words, the dominance of Gentiles is almost by design, rather than just...

Oh, indeed. Indeed. The late Dr. Stan Tolkien, who was a Messianic Jewish believer, actually, in one of his books, he actually pointed out that only 5 % of Jewish believers actually attend what's called

Messianic synagogues, which means that 95 % of them are predominantly Gentile. And there's a fascination among non -Jewish believers, there's a fascination with the

Old Testament, the Mosaic Law, the Sabbath, the feast days, dietary laws, and so forth.

The reason why this is really close to my heart in the sense of wanting to address this,

Chris, is I lost one of my seminary students to this movement. He had followed the

Hebrew movement, and then he had contacted me and started engaging me in online debates, and then eventually

I pushed him to the wall and said, listen, what do they say about Jesus Christ? What do they say about God? Do they believe in the

Trinity? And I told him, if they have the wrong God, the wrong Jesus, it doesn't matter how many laws you observe, you're lost, and you're an apostate.

And it got to the point where he finally admitted to me that they were non -Trinitarian, and he left them.

He was so shocked by that revelation, which I kept warning him about, that he left them, and then he went and joined a

Messianic group that was not legalistic. And so what you basically find here, Chris, is this is a movement that is saying to Christians, modern -day

Christianity has been paganized. Modern -day Christianity has been paganized by Constantine, by the various councils of the

Church, it has a lot of Greco -Roman mythology in there, they celebrate pagan holidays like Christmas and Easter, and we should be like Jesus and the apostles.

Jesus was a Jew, his apostles were Jews, they were faithful to the law of God, and so we have to do what the early

Christians did. And so what they do is they will even make claims such as the original New Testament was written in Hebrew, and that later the

Greek New Testament actually corrupted the original Hebrew language, the

Hebrew New Testament. That's how they can insist on calling Jesus Yeshua, because of the fact that, because we know that in actuality, his history proves that the original manuscripts of the

New Testament were in Greek, and therefore the name was Jesus in the manuscript, not

Yeshua. And exactly, not just the New Testament, but when we look at the Septuagint, which is the

Greek translation of the Old Testament, the book of Joshua is the book of Yesus.

It's the Greek word yesus in the Septuagint for Joshua, which is also used of Jesus in the

New Testament. So even the Jews who translated the Hebrew into the Greek, into the Septuagint, they even used

Yesus for Joshua. And so this is the problem here, Chris, is that a lot of Christians who fall prey to these movements, they don't understand the history of the manuscript transmission, the development of the scriptural text.

A lot of them, unfortunately, the blame must be laid at the foot of many pastors, because what's happening here is that a lot of Christians are not trained in understanding the relationship of the

New Covenant to the Old Covenant. They are canonically challenged, in the sense that most

Christians today have no clue what the Levitical priesthood is about, what the sacrificial system is about, because they've become so ingrained in the

New Testament that they have forgotten the Old. And let's face it, many

Christians simply think the Old Testament is just, it's just too confusing, there's just all these laws that are mentioned, and sacrificial laws, and what to do with this part of the animal, and what to burn, and et cetera, et cetera.

And so a poor understanding of the relationship between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant has allowed these false teachers, who many of them, by the way, deny the deity of Christ and deny the

Trinity, and therefore are cults, they have allowed these teachers to basically mesmerize these sheep, who don't know better, and they think that by keeping the law, they're pleasing

God, in that they're doing exactly what Jesus wanted. Jesus, after all, said in John 14, 15, if you love me, keep my commandments.

And they interpret that to mean the commandments of the Torah, the 613 commandments that God gave

Moses. Another key text they use, Chris, is Matthew 5, 17, where the Lord Jesus says, do not think that I've come to abolish the law of the prophets,

I've not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. And the Lord went on to say that whoever teaches men to disobey the least of the laws or the commandments, they shall be called the least in the kingdom.

And they take these passages, rent them out of context, and say, you see, Jesus didn't come to abolish the law, he came to fulfill it.

In other words, he didn't come to take away the Mosaic Covenant, he came to renew the Mosaic Covenant.

And that, of course, is simply false. It lies right in the face of New Testament theology.

All right, we're going to go to our first break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Don't go away, we'll be right back with Tony Costa and the Hebrew Roots Movement after these messages from our sponsors.

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And we are now back with our discussion today with Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary.

He is the professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. We are not only discussing our major theme today, the

Hebrew Roots Movement, but we're also promoting a special event that Dr. Costa will be involved in in New York City on Friday, July 6th.

This is an event that is sponsored by New Covenant Church New York City and Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and the themes will be defending the faith in a postmodern society, the dangers of cultural

Marxism's impact on society and the church, and a

Q &A involving the audience. We are also organizing an intimate gathering of pastors to have lunch that afternoon at an undetermined location right now, but the event on Friday, July 6th, 630 p .m.,

will be held at First Baptist Church of New York City on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, a very historic church dating back to at least the 18th century, and we're excited about being in this 1 ,000 -seat historic building for this event.

And email me at chrisarnsen at gmail .com if you have any interest in attending the event. That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

and put a New York City event in the subject line, but you could also use that email address to send a question for Dr.

Tony Costa at chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

and please give us your name, city, and state, and country of residence. And George Jensen is my in -studio co -host, pastor of the

Enola First Church of God in Enola, Pennsylvania, and you had some experience with a church or movement here in Pennsylvania that troubled you that has a lot of resemblance to what

Dr. Costa is talking about. Can you explain a little bit? Sure, that's correct,

Chris. The movement that I came in contact with is a group called the Assemblies of Yahweh, based in Bethel, Pennsylvania, and came into contact with this, as I explained to you earlier, involving an evangelistic effort in Schuylkill County, Pennsylvania, and when we were looking to recommend potential new believers to churches, we wanted to make sure we steered them away from this group, because much of it is like what

Dr. Costa talked about, they insist on calling Jesus Yeshua, God must be addressed as Yahweh, they do not believe in the

Trinity, just about everything that Dr. Costa stated is with this group.

But this group is older than the 1990s, it goes back to the 1960s, and it was part of that Sacred Name Movement, had influence by the

Worldwide Church of God, Seventh -day Adventists, and others, so even though it's not a

Hebrew Roots Movement, it's still going strong and looks very similar to the Hebrew Roots Movement that's emerged since the 90s that Dr.

Costa talked about, so this must have been around for a while, this thinking. Yeah, and I don't know if it's the same movement that you're describing, but back in the 1990s when

I worked for WMCA Radio, an affiliate of Salem Media, I befriended a couple on Long Island who were from Bayshore, and their son was involved in some kind of a cult in Colorado, where they, you know, said that they were adhering to the

Old Covenant law, which was still binding, and they went as forbidding medicine and things like that, and this young man, their son died,

I believe he was a diabetic or something like that, and he died because when he was in the hospital, members of the group came and asked him if he wanted to leave with them, and he said yes, and even though the parents were begging him not to leave, the police who were in the room, because they called the police, said that there was nothing that they could do legally, because he was voluntarily leaving, and they took the young man with them, and he eventually died, and was buried somewhere with an unmarked grave out in the deserts of Colorado.

But anyway, Dr. Costa, going back to what you were originally saying about the

Sacred Names Movement and also the Hebrew Roots Movement, how are they different?

Well, they're different in the sense that not all Hebrew Roots Movements will emphasize the need to use the sacred names like Yahweh and Yeshua.

Some do, because they're trying to argue for that Hebrew original, but some are not as adamant, and so while they do have similarities with the

Sacred Name Movement, they're not exactly the same. Now, would another difference be that the

Hebrew Roots Movement, you're not going to see a house of worship somewhere with a sign necessarily saying

Hebrew Roots Movement, this is more of a movement that's affecting other churches, am

I right to say that? Yes, it's affecting other churches in that they poach members of other churches into the movement.

And so what they do is they begin to convince these followers that your church is not obeying the laws of God, it is in rebellion against God, it has apostatized from God's laws and so forth, and what they do is they draw these groups to themselves.

And they don't have any particular houses of worship, they'll meet in homes, they'll meet in conference halls and so forth, and that's why in many cases it's difficult to pin them down, because they really don't have a centralized headquarters, other than the one that I mentioned in Tampa, Florida.

But other than that, just like other cults do, they poach Christians from their local assemblies and drag them away.

Now we have an anonymous listener who actually said that a relative of hers was involved in a

Nazarene congregation, which is basically a traditionally recognized

Arminian, Wesleyan Arminian denomination, and apparently this specific congregation was nearly overrun, according to our listener anonymously writing in, by this

Hebrew Roots Movement. Do you know of other circumstances or situations where like an entire congregation has been seduced?

Yes, yes, yes, very much so, especially smaller churches. They will prey on small churches, and this brings to mind what the

Lord said about how false prophets function. They come as wolves dressed in sheep's clothing, and what do wolves do?

They scatter the sheep. And that's precisely what they do, they scatter the sheep, they maul the sheep, they take them away, they tear them away, and what they usually do is they prey on smaller congregations.

And this is something that, not just the Hebrew Roots Movement, I've seen the

Moonies do this, the members of the Unification Church, started by Sun Yung Moon, they do the same thing.

I've taught them in churches, Chris. I remember attending a baptism for a friend of mine who had come to know

Christ, and the guest speaker was a member of the Unification Church, the

Moonies. Yeah. And I took the pastor aside and scolded him, first of all, for allowing a wolf to come into the sheep pen, and then

I had to deal with this cultist and expose him before the whole church. And so this is not unusual for them to come in and influence a whole church and tear it apart.

Now, you spoke somewhat in defense of making sure that you weren't broad -brushing when you were referring to messianic congregations and individuals, but that term is such a broad term, it's really not helpful because it's not a very specific term or movement, because you do,

I have found over the years that I have been a Christian going back to the 80s, you have a whole host of things going on under the umbrella of messianic

Judaism. Yeah. You do have some anti -Trinitarian Aryans and really

Judaizers under that umbrella. Now, I'm not accusing most or all who wear that label of that.

I'm just saying that they can be found identifying themselves as messianic Jews. Yes, very much so.

I mean, we're getting to the point that the term evangelical has become a back -to -west term.

I mean, most evangelicals I know today are evangelical fishers. And with messianic congregations, you're absolutely right,

Chris, that under that umbrella term, we need to be very careful, because there are messianic groups that are definitely anti -Trinitarian.

I remember Dr. James White and Dr. Michael Brown taking on Anthony Buzzard, and I believe the other gentleman,

I think his name was Joe Goode or something, or John Goode, I think his last name was Goode, G -O -O -D, and he was a so -called messianic who denied the

Trinity and the Deity of Christ. I know a messianic congregation here in Toronto that had a very faithful pastor, a faithful Jewish pastor who was sound and orthodox, and then the next fellow took it over, and all of a sudden it became more and more

Torah -centered. Instead of it being Christ -centered, Messiah -centered, it became all about the

Torah, the laws of the Torah, the mitzvot, as it's called in Hebrew, and there was one gentleman in that church that I noticed that he was moving in a very dangerous direction.

He went from claiming to be a messianic believer in Jesus, he's now left the messianic movement and has gone into orthodox

Judaism. And so this is what happens, Chris, is a lot of these messianic movements are basically, as you rightly noted, heretical, but the ones that emphasize the

Torah, that is, the Old Covenant over the New Covenant, what you find is many of these guys fall prey to the anti -missionary groups like the

Jews for Judaism, and they end up going right back to Judaism. They're doing the very same thing that we find in the book of Hebrews, where the author is addressing a community of Jewish believers who are tempted to go back into Judaism.

And so you're absolutely right, we have to be careful with our terminology, because not everything that hails itself as evangelical is evangelical, and not everything that hails itself as messianic is truly orthodox.

Yeah, we have to ask questions, too. I mean, our listeners should be very, if they get invited to a

Seder celebration by an organization calling itself a messianic

Jewish congregation, they have to be clear to ask a bunch of questions. What is your view of the

Trinity? What is your view of the Deity of Christ? What is your view of salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ alone?

And I have friends who are both

Jewish believers and Gentile believers in messianic works that are very orthodox.

We may have some disagreements, some of them are Calvinistic, some of them are not. But my friend

Marty Fromm, who is now with Lord, who was the overseer of Beth Yeshua in Nassau County, Long Island, and had several locations over the years in Suffolk County and Nassau County.

But he was very, very opposed to the synagogue movement within messianic

Judaism. He did not like the overseers of these congregations calling themselves rabbi and wearing yarmulkes and vestments.

The only time that Marty did anything like that was during a Seder or something like that, not because he felt that it was required, but he was just trying to give the appearance of how something was celebrated in a

Jewish home and so on. And then he would point, he would point to the fact of Christ being our

Passover lamb, and that's why there is no lamb served anymore since AD 70, since the temple was destroyed, there's no lamb served at a

Passover meal. Right. The Jews for Jesus, for example, are an orthodox

Christian group that pass from our Seders, but they hold to a very strong orthodox evangelical statement of faith.

Yes, and even Chosen People Ministries was started by Presbyterians evangelizing in Brooklyn.

And Mitch Glazer, the current president, is a Calvinist, although he is dispensationalist, he's a Calvinist.

Yes, and there's also my good friend Dr. Arnold Fuchtenbaum from Ariel Ministries in San Antonio, Texas.

Dr. Fuchtenbaum is a competent scholar in both the Old and the New Testament, and I remember in a visit to Toronto once, he was sharing with me how he visited a so -called

Messianic congregation, and he was very, very alarmed at their overemphasis on everything

Judaic, rather than recognizing the unity that we have in Christ. By the way,

I wanted to ask Pastor Andy Woodard, I was just curious, I know that Manhattan is quite a diverse group of people living in Manhattan, probably more diverse than anywhere on the planet

Earth, but he may not necessarily have been confronted with this yet.

Have you had any kind of contact by Hebrew Roots Movement folks there in the heart of the

Big Apple there, Pastor Woodard? Hey, not that I know of specifically.

When I first heard of Hebrew Roots Movement, I asked, wait, is that Hebrew Israelite? Because I've had quite a...

Yeah, the Black Israelites is what you right, and there are several people who have made that mistake, it's not the same heresy, but it's a heresy nonetheless.

Yeah, and I had a number of interactions with folks who seem to embrace a very strange form of quasi -Messianic

Judaism. They insist on only using the name Yeshua, they will not eat pork, they will not eat cheeseburgers, they celebrate feast days, and don't seem to go to a church of really any kind, just sort of floating and drifting around to various religious groups.

But I don't know that I've had encounters with people who would identify with this group.

Yeah, they can't be saved, because as we all know, that when we're in heaven, all we will be doing is eating pork and cheeseburgers.

But yeah, one of the things that you brought up, and you also applied it to the

Sacred Names folks, as far as using the term

Yeshua and Yahweh, I believe, Tony, you said that the

Hebrew roots movement is not as strict as the Sacred Names group, who actually, I believe, according to my co -host

George Jensen, he remembers that as being actually a salvific thing with the Sacred Names folks, right?

That you had to use... Very much so. With the assemblies of Yahweh, that group, yes. Yeah, very much so.

In fact, I've been told by some Sacred Name movement folks that the term

God, G -O -D, that we use in English, derives from a pagan name, and that some have even gone as far as saying that Jesus is connected to Zeus, the

Greek king of the gods. And again, it just shows that they know nothing about Biblical grammar, whether it's

Hebrew or Greek or Aramaic, and yet they do make it a salvific issue, because they say that when you say the name

Jesus, you're not addressing the Messiah, you're addressing a false god.

And so, they believe that, much like Jehovah's Witnesses, Jehovah's Witnesses are similar in the

Sacred Name movement insofar that they believe that the name Jehovah must be used in prayer, and that that's why they have their famous New World Translation, where they use

Jehovah throughout the Old and the New Testament, because they believe that the true God only responds to his name,

Jehovah. But the Sacred Name groups do certainly make it, some of them, not all, but some of them do make it a criteria of salvation.

And we're going to our midway break right now. Our midway break is longer than our normal break because of the fact that Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a 12 -minute break where they play their own public service announcements and commercials.

So please be patient as we take this elongated break. Take this time not only to write questions for our guest

Dr. Tony Costa on the Hebrew Roots movement, but also use this time to write down information provided by our advertisers, because when you patronize our advertisers who support

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Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Also, I have some very important upcoming announcements, or should

I say announcements for upcoming events, two of which include Dr. Tony Costa.

First of all, on Sunday, July 1st, Dr. Tony Costa will be preaching at the

Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, New York, and he will be preaching at the

Sunday morning service for certain. Dr. Costa, do you know if you'll also be preaching in the afternoon or evening that day?

No, I have not heard anything differently. Okay, well we know for certain for now. Okay, and if you want more details on that event, go to hopereformedli .net,

hopereformedli, which stands for longisland .net, and that's the website for Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Medford, Long Island.

You can also call 631 -696 -5711, 631 -696 -5711.

And then the following week, actually the same week, I should say, the following Friday, July 6th at 6 30 p .m.,

Dr. Costa will be conducting a conference that is being sponsored by New Covenant Church in New York City, the congregation where my co -host on the phone,

Andy Woodard, is pastoring, and Iron Trip and Zion Radio are cooperating on a free

New York City seminar featuring Dr. Tony Costa, author and professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary, Friday, July 6th, 6 30 p .m.

to 10 p .m. The first message is on defending the faith in a postmodern society. The second message is on the dangers of cultural

Marxism's impact on society and the church. And the session after that will be a

Q &A with the audience. If you want more details on this event, call 646 -770 -2282, 646 -770 -2282, or you can email the

New Covenant Church of New York City at nccnycinfo at gmail .com.

That's NCC for New Covenant Church, NYC for New York City, info at gmail .com,

or you can email me at chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Then coming up in August, the 2nd through the 4th, the Fellowship Conference New England is being held in Portland, Maine, and this is a unique conference in that every speaker who is on the roster there is going to be speaking on something entirely different or very different from the speaker before him.

It is not one theme, and it is featuring all believers in the

Doctrines of Sovereign Grace at this conference. The speakers include such men as Pastor Tim Conway of Grace Community Church in San Antonio, Texas, my dear friend

Pastor Mac Tomlinson, who has faithfully supported Iron Sharpens Iron Radio for quite a while with his financial contributions.

He is pastor of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas. He is also an author and a book editor and publisher.

Pastor Jesse Barrington, who is going to be my guest again very soon on Iron Sharpens Iron, he is the pastor of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas, and Pastor Nate Pickowitz, who is an author and pastor at Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Ironworks, New Hampshire.

If you want more details on registering for this conference, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com, fellowshipconferencenewengland .com,

and again that conference is being held August 2nd through the 4th at the Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine, fellowshipconferencenewengland .com.

And then coming up in November, the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having their annual

Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Quaker Town, Pennsylvania.

The speakers include David Garner, Ray Ortland, Richard Phillips, Timothy Gibson, and Carlton Wynn.

The theme is the glory of the cross. If you'd like to register, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org,

click on events, and then click on Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology. I will have an exhibitors booth there,

God willing, so please greet me during a break at the Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology.

And tell the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals that you heard about the conference from Chris Arnson, please. Then, coming up in January, an event that has come to be one of my favorite times of the year that I look forward to with bated breath, and I am excited about this year as well.

The G3 Conference in Atlanta, Georgia is being held Thursday, January 17th through Saturday, January 19th at the

Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia, which is a suburb of Atlanta.

The theme is the mission of God, a biblical understanding of missions, and they are expecting over 4 ,000 people, and I am going to have an

Iron Trip and Zion Radio exhibitors booth there again, God willing. This will be my third year in a row. Speakers include,

God willing, Paul Washer, John Piper, Stephen Lawson, Votie Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad M.

Bayway, Tim Challies, Phil Johnson of John MacArthur's Grace to You Ministries, Josh Bice, the founder of the

G3 Conference, which by the way stands for Grace, Gospel, and Glory, Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Radio, and more.

Please, if you want to register for either attending the G3 Conference or even having an exhibitors booth like I will have, whether it's for your church, your parachurch ministry, your business, or something else that brings praise, honor, and glory to Christ, go to g3conference .com,

g3conference .com, and please tell the folks there that you heard about them from Chris Arns and an Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

Last but not least, it's my least favorite time of the program where I have to beg you for money.

We are in need of your contributions if Iron Trip and Zion Radio is to remain on the air.

I thank God that my dear friends at BatteryDepot .com,

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If you want to advertise with us, send us an email to chrisarensen at gmail .com. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Dr.

Tony Costa on the Hebrew Roots Movement, chrisarensen at gmail .com. Give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside of the good old

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. And before we go to any listener questions,

I would like to start off this segment with a question from my co -host and studio,

Pastor George Jensen, who has a question of his own, if you could, George. Keep going.

Okay, there I think I'm on now. Dr. Costa, this group that I'm aware of in Bethel, Pennsylvania, Assemblies of Yahweh, which again, as I explained earlier, is more of a sacred name movement rather than part of the 90s

Hebrew Roots, this group claims that the reason that one must call a

God Yahweh or Jesus Yeshua and it's necessary for salvation, strangely enough, they claim it's because Hebrew is the language of heaven.

Now, evidence to that is, of course, to the contrary, it's a man -made tongue, but do you have any idea,

I found this quite curious, where this comes from, where the notion that Hebrew is the language of heaven?

Yes, this idea is found in Rabbinic literature, in the Talmud, that argues that this was the language that God would have spoken to Moses and so forth.

However, this comes from Rabbinic tradition, not based on Scripture, and you're correct to note that the

Hebrew language is a man -made language, just like any other language. It derives from the

Phoenician alphabet, and we also know that Hebrew was a sister tongue to Aramaic and also to Babylonian and Akkadian, and so the claim that it is a heavenly language has no support whatsoever in the

Scriptures. We know that there was a unilingual communication that humanity had prior to the

Tower of Babel. There was only one people, one tongue, and so forth, and after the Tower of Babel, of course, this is where we have the multiplicity of various languages.

It originates in Genesis 11, and so the idea that Hebrew is heavenly, once again, is something that derives later from Rabbinic tradition.

You also have this in Islam. Islam will argue that Arabic is the heavenly language because they believe the

Qur 'an pre -existed the world, that it is the eternal speech of God, who they call

Allah, and that this was the heavenly language. So, and Muhammad got this concept from the

Jews in Medina, and so there's a lot of Rabbinic Jewish influence in Islam as well.

So, the short answer to your question, Pastor, is that no, Hebrew is a human language that God sovereignly used, just like He sovereignly used

Greek in the first century, as it was the lingua franca of the known world, to take the Gospel to the world that at that time spoke

Greek. So, no, the claim is actually baseless. Thank you. Okay, we have

RJ in White Plains, New York, who says, Many of my Messianic Jewish friends will falsely accuse those of us who are

Reformed, who believe that the Church is the fulfillment of Israel, as believing in Replacement Theology, a term that I have never heard, at least in the

United States, someone who is Reformed in either awe or post -millennial use to describe themselves.

But it seems that what you are saying in regard to the Hebrew Roots Movement, that they may very well be guilty of a

Replacement Theology, because, if I'm not mistaken, you said earlier that the true

Israeli people are someone of a Gentile background, and if you could further explain.

Yes, well, Replacement Theology is the view that says that God has finished with Israel, and that the

Church has replaced Israel, and therefore the Church is now the true Israel. And there's difference of opinion in this area.

Traditionally, Distensationalists have held to what's called the two -people -of -God view, that Israel, the

Jews, are God's people, and then you've got the Church. I think that has no scriptural basis.

God has always had one people, and they are those who are in covenant with Him. The other view is historically known as Covenant Theology, and this is a view that some of the

Reformers also held to, that the Church basically takes over Israel, and it's one covenant of promise from the beginning that the

Church simply takes, and that the Church, in essence, is the new Israel. There's another group called the view called

New Covenant Theology that is somewhat of a mediating position that would say, well, it's not that the

Church has replaced Israel, but that the Church is the people of God, that one new man that Christ has created within Himself by breaking down the wall of hostility, by taking

Jews and Gentiles and bringing them into His body. And so the view here is not so much that the

Church has replaced Israel, but that the Church is the continuation, if you will, of the people of God, and that those

Jews who are the people of God are only those that are in the body of Christ, in the body of the

Messiah. In other words, unregenerate Jews are just as lost as everybody else. They're not children of God because they don't have regenerate hearts.

And so, the Hebrew Roots movement, the odd thing about them is they will not claim that they're Jews. They will actually claim that they are

Gentiles that are obeying the laws of God. And so they have no problem saying, we're not

Jews. We're simply Gentiles who have been grafted into Israel.

And they misapply Romans 11 where Paul talks about the olive tree there, and he talks about how

Gentiles are wild olive shoots that have been grafted into the olive tree. But what the

Hebrew Roots movement, what they do is they identify the olive tree with Israel, whereas what

Paul is doing is he's equating the olive tree and the roots of the olive tree with the Abrahamic promise.

And the Gentiles benefit from the Abrahamic promise because God said to Abraham that in your seed, all the families of the earth will be saved.

In other words, the Gentiles become sons of Abraham, not sons of Israel, sons of Abraham, through faith in the

Messiah, the seed of Abraham. Yeah, the circumcision of the heart, as Paul discusses, that a

Jew is not one necessarily outwardly. A true

Jew is one inwardly. Correct. And so in Romans 2, 28 to 29, that's another text that's been taken out of context to simply mean that some take that to mean all believers in Christ, that they're the new

Jews, if you will. But if you read Romans 3, 1, Paul continues and says, what advantage, then, does the

Jew have? And what advantage is there in circumcision? Much in every way. So in that context,

Paul is basically saying that a true Jew is a Jew who is regenerate, that is one who has a circumcision not just merely of the flesh, but a circumcision of the heart.

That's what Paul is addressing in chapter 2, is the status of the Jew in the economy of God. And so the position of the

Scriptures is very clear. Unregenerate Jews are not the people of God. Those who are in the

New Covenant, those who are regenerate, just like the Gentiles, they are the people of God.

Right, and we could do a whole program on the whole concept of what is so -called replacement theology.

I happen to believe that the church is a fulfillment of Israel. And I do not believe, though, that it somehow replaces it.

Because when you use that terminology, it sounds like you are saying Gentiles are replacing

Jews. And that's usually what even our biblically

Orthodox Messianic brethren, when they are falsely accusing those who are not dispensationalists as being anti -Semitic, they are thinking we are saying that Gentiles replace

Jews. But obviously, if we are grafted in, it has to be the church, because how could we be grafted into the nation of Israel?

That's right. But going back to our listener's question, I don't know if I could clearly understand a direct answer to one part of his question.

He seemed to be wondering if you were saying that the Hebrew Roots Movement are, in fact, claiming that Gentiles have replaced the

Jews as the people of Israel. No, no, they're not saying that at all. That's why they don't themselves identify as Jews, because predominantly they're

Gentiles. There's no need for a Jew to become a Hebrew Roots follower, because the

Jew already is a Hebrew. And so they don't claim to be Jews. They don't even claim to replace the

Jews. They simply say that we are following the

Jews, particularly the Orthodox Jews, in the way they observe the Torah. Some of the Hebrew Roots Movement, incidentally, will even follow

Talmudic and Rabbinic laws as well. For example, earlier we talked about how they won't eat two burgers.

Well, the concept of not eating dairy products with meat is not something found in the Bible. They take that text in Exodus— The calf being cooked in its mother's milk, right?

—in its mother's milk to refer to not eating dairy products with beef. That has nothing to do with dietary laws, because that was simply a

Canaanite fertility rite that the Jews were forbidden to practice, as their neighbors were fertility cultists.

But the rabbis took that passage and they reinterpreted it to mean, you cannot mix dairy with beef.

But we've got a major problem, Chris, because in Genesis 18, when the Lord himself, when Yahweh appears to Abraham with two angels, what does

Abraham serve them? He serves them veal with curdles. That's exactly what

I'm having for dinner tonight, actually. Well, the rabbis interpreted that to mean, well, you have to understand, they waited three hours before they had the veal.

No, that's not what the text says. They ate both together. So this is how rabbinic Judaism has veered off from the scriptures, and remember, the rabbis today are the modern -day heirs of the

Pharisees. Right, now is this— The Pharisees produced rabbinic Judaism. So the

Hebrew Roots movement, though, they claim to be Christian? They claim to be

Christian, but they try to use words like Hebrew followers of the

Messiah. Now, does the Messiah in their mind— I don't like the word Christian. But is the Messiah Yeshua?

Is he God? No. So they're Arian. Many of them denied the deity of Christ.

Some of them will affirm it, but a large number of them reject the trinity and the deity of Christ.

And I'm assuming that they believe salvation lies in their obedience to the law, the old covenant law.

They're very cunning in the way they do this, Chris. They will say, we're saved by God's grace, but if you're truly saved, then you will bear that saving grace by producing the fruit of keeping

God's law. So basically, you're saved by grace, but you're kept by law. Ah, it sounds something like I heard somewhere.

Hmm, where was that? The Council of Trent? Yes, precisely.

All man -made religions, Chris, are works -oriented. Right. Okay. We are going to our final break.

It's going to be much briefer than the others. If you want to join us on the air with a question of your own, as we're running out of time, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away, God willing. We'll be right back with more of Dr. Tony Costa, and our discussion on the

Hebrew Roots Movement, so please do not go away. Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am

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We are now back with our guest, Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

We are addressing the Hebrew Roots Movement. In studio with me is Pastor George Jensen, lead pastor of the

Enola First Church of God in Enola, Pennsylvania. On phone with me is my other co -host,

Pastor Andy Woodard, who is the pastor of New Covenant Church, New York City.

And our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com. And Pastor Andy, before we go to any of our listeners waiting online to have their questions asked and answered, you had a question.

Yeah, Dr. Cossett, you might have mentioned this earlier, but I missed it. Do the

Hebrew Roots Movement followers identify themselves in that way, or do they know themselves to be

Hebrew Roots Movement followers, or would we as believers just realize that or recognize that through listening and observation?

Yeah, you mean like, for instance, the Mormons were originally called Mormons as a phrase of derision, and they eventually loved it and accepted it.

Just, in fact, Puritans as well, I believe. The word Puritan was originally an insult, and then the very people they were insulting came to claim that as their title themselves.

Yes, and we could also add the Anabaptists as well. They were called Anabaptists by their

Pedopaptist counterpart because they charged them with rebaptizing. So in answer to your question, they're very proud to call themselves followers of the

Hebrew Roots Movement. They don't shy away from that title at all.

And they're very easy to spot. They're very zealous about keeping

God's laws. They have a very dim view of the Church in general for not observing these laws, and they argue that the modern -day

Church has moved far from the historic first -century

Church, which they believe kept all these laws. And so they use the same argument that the cults used at the

Church after the death of the last apostle. Basically went into an apostasy, and then they have come to renew or to restore, much like Joseph Smith of the

Mormon Church claimed to restore the gospel that was lost. And so many of them would self -identify with the

Hebrew Roots Movement, and they would identify with no hesitation. Well, thank you,

Andy. Are you finished, or do you need anything clarified there? No, that's perfect. Thank you.

Okay, we have B .B. in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and B .B. says, how would the best way to initially bring someone from this movement who is trying to evangelize us to the fact that Jesus Christ is more than just a

Messiah, but he is actually God, and he is a member of the

Triune Godhead? Well, what I would do first of all, before touching on the deity of Christ, is

I would take them to Luke 24, where the Lord Jesus, on his walk to Emmaus, made it very clear there that he is the center of the

Law and the Prophets, that he is the center of all of God's purposes. And so, the following passages you should bear in mind,

Luke 24, verse 27, and beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the

Scriptures the things concerning himself. Notice that Moses and the Prophets are about Jesus.

He's the focal point. And then in verse 44, then he said to them, these are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the

Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled. Then he opened their minds to understand the

Scriptures. Now, this is crucial. What the Lord Jesus is doing here is he's teaching us to read the

Old Testament through Christological lenses. That is to say, to read the Old Testament through the eyes of Jesus and to see

Jesus there. That is, in the tabernacle, in the temple, in the priesthood, in the Sabbath, in the feast days.

Everything is about him. But what you want to show them is that the centerpiece of the

Law and the Prophets is Jesus himself. He is the centerpiece. Now, secondly, in dealing with the deity of Christ, after you've established this, the best place to go, of course, is

John chapter 1, where without any mistake, we are told there, in the beginning was the

Word, the Word was with God, the Word was God, through him all things were made, without him nothing was made that was made.

This Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And to all who received him, to them he gave the right to become children of God.

So I think that the first chapter of John, especially verses 1 to 18, are absolutely crucial in outlining the identity of God the

Son. It's crystal clear what it's talking about there. Some Hebrew Roots movements will adopt modalism.

That is to say that God is only one person, and that God takes on different modes.

He's the Father, and then he becomes the Son, and then he becomes the Holy Spirit, something akin to what the one who has been an

Apostle is called to. And so that's how I would start, with Luke 24, and then establish

Christ as the centerpiece of the Old Testament, and then move on to his identity in John 1.

We have C .J. in Lindenhurst, Long Island, who says, Do those in the

Hebrew Roots movement believe that the epistles of Paul are indeed

God -breathed? If so, how can they possibly get around Paul's rebuke very strongly against the

Judaizers who he anathematizes to hell? Okay, number one, they do accept the

Pauline letters, the epistles, as Scripture and as God -breathed. They charge that the

Church in general has misinterpreted Paul, and what they would do is they would take the letter of Galatians, and they will twist it like a pretzel, and twist it to the point where they will say that Paul is not condemning observance of the law.

What Paul is condemning is the view that you can be justified by keeping the law.

And so they're very crafty here. They will say, no, we are saved by God's grace, and some will even say, by God's grace alone, but here comes the catch.

The way you express your faith towards God is by keeping the law.

So what they do is they end up twisting Galatians, and Romans, and other texts, and turn it around and twist the meaning from the meaning that Paul intended.

Well, like, for instance, even Orthodox Christians like myself, we believe that, in the words of Christ, those who love me will keep my commandments, but we do not believe the ceremonial law of the

Old Covenant is a part of those commandments today. Well, this is the thing.

The thing is this. When they hear the word commandment, it triggers in their mind the laws of Moses.

In other words, we have to understand that Jesus gave over 400 commandments in the New Testament.

When Jesus said, if you love me, keep my commandments, what we need to understand is that that is given in the context of the

Last Supper, where the Lord Jesus said, this is a new commandment that I give unto you. The new commandment is, love one another as I have loved you.

And the principle, the law of Christ in the New Testament is the law of love. It's the love of God, first and foremost, but love one another as Christ has loved us.

That is the new commandment. The old commandment said, love your neighbor as yourself. The new commandment says, go higher.

Love as Christ loved. And here's the problem. Some of the Adventists do this, too. Whenever they say,

Jesus said, if you love me, keep my commandments, well, look at the Ten Commandments. Do you keep the seven -day

Sabbath? Well, if you're not, you're not obeying the commandments of Jesus. So, we have 613 commandments in the

Mosaic Law, and those commandments are all integral. They're all interconnected with one another.

The problem is that many people confuse the New Covenant with the

Old Covenant, and they assume that whenever Jesus speaks about commandments, that he is immediately referring to the

Decalogue or referring to the Old Testament laws. We have to keep this in context. Jesus comes as the

Messiah to enact the New Covenant, and in the New Covenant, we have commandments that are given to us directly by the

Lord Jesus and through his inspired apostles as well. So, this is the issue that we must keep in mind, is that the commandments that Jesus gives us in the

New Covenant are rooted fundamentally in that commandment of love that he gave us.

And we have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who asks,

Are there any Old Covenant laws you can point to when discussing theology with the

Hebrew Roots movement advocates that they themselves are overlooking that would condemn them by their own words?

Well, yes, there's many laws. The Mosaic Law is a unit, and this is really important to understand, that the

Mosaic Law is a package deal. That's why Paul said in Galatians 5, if you are circumcised, you become a debtor to the whole law, not just parts.

You can't pick and choose what you're going to obey. If you receive circumcision, Paul warns the Galatians, you are a debtor to the whole law, 613 commandments.

Now, the Hebrew Roots movement folks, they can't keep all those commandments, because many of those commandments were related to the

Temple. Many of those commandments were related to the land of Israel, the land itself, the Adeth Israel.

And therefore, they cannot keep all those commandments consistently. There's also no

Levitical priesthood anymore. You see, here's the problem, Chris. If the Mosaic Covenant was still enforced, our

Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, could not be a high priest, because under the

Mosaic administration, only the Levites, the sons of Aaron, could be priests.

Jesus did not come from the tribe of Levi. He comes from the tribe of Judah. And the

Book of Hebrews argues that Jesus is part of a superior, a better priesthood, the priesthood of Melchizedek, which surpasses the

Aaronic priesthood. In other words, under the Mosaic law, nobody could function as a priest, save for the

Levites. Under the New Covenant, we have a priest after the order of Melchizedek, whose priesthood supersedes that of Aaron.

And so the Hebrew Roots Movement folks are found in a conundrum, because they cannot keep all those laws.

Many of those laws, like the laws of the land must lie fallow for every seventh year, every sabbatical year, the land must lie fallow.

Well, do they do that? Do they let their farms lie fallow on the seventh year, or if they have a garden?

So they're not being consistent, not at all. Let's see, here we have

Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania. And Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania says,

Do those who are advocates of the Hebrew Roots Movement by and large reject the rest of Christendom as being false and damned?

Yes. Wow, so they're not like ecumenists. They're saying that we have a false gospel, and a false god, for that matter.

Just like the Watchtower said, the Mormon Church says the same thing about historic Christianity. Yes, correct.

Yeah, except the Mormons have changed their public relations. And they pretend now that they are just another denomination, which is not what they started out as.

That's right. Let's see here, we have

Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Pennsylvania. Whatever happened with your student who became a member of this

Hebrew Roots Movement? I must have missed something. Yes, he was part of the Hebrew Roots Movement, and I challenged him on the trinity and the deity of Christ.

He realized that the group did deny those central doctrines of the Christian faith. What happened was he ended up joining a

Messianic group led by a brother in Christ, a Jewish brother in Christ, whom I know personally, who is a very strong, orthodox, sound

Bible teacher, and so forth. He joined his group for a while, and then he disappeared. So I don't know what's become of him.

I pray that he's returned back to the church. So unfortunately,

I don't know where he's moved on from there. Let's see here, we have an anonymous listener.

The anonymous listener says, I am so happy to hear about New Covenant Church in New York City, because the churches that I know of that claim to be reformed seem to be leaning towards all kinds of liberal ideas, including critical race theory.

I was wondering what Pastor Andy Woodard has to say about that. Thank you for that.

There's a reason why we're hosting Dr. Costa on Friday night,

July 6th. He talks about the things that he's going to be talking about.

We are not into critical race theory, yet we still have a diverse congregation.

We are not into cultural Marxism, yet we have very poor people in our church, and we have

Wall Street bankers in our church. So we take a much more, forgive me for saying this, but historic approach to ministry and the gospel, and we think that if we preach

Christ crucified, then people will be united, and racial tensions will be resolved by Christ, by the gospel.

We're not held responsible for the sins of our forefathers, that there is forgiveness.

Yeah, I'm not sure that's specific enough. Well, we could make sure that that anonymous listener has your website, and that website, once again, is ncc, for New Covenant Church, dot nyc, for New York City.

Yeah. ncc .nyc. Thank you very much. I'd like to invite them to reach out to me.

My personal email address is pastorandy .nyc at gmail .com.

And I also want to take this opportunity quickly before I either forget or run out of time, but Pastor Andy Woodard and Gary Rosenblatt, who is not only a preacher and treasurer, but also a treasurer there at the

New Covenant Church of New York City, they will be my guests this Friday, June 22nd, 4 to 6 p .m.,

to discuss the challenges of being a biblically faithful church in an urban area like New York City that is probably the most liberal and culturally and religiously diverse area on the planet

Earth. So I'm looking forward to Pastor Andy and Gary being with us this

Friday, the 22nd of June, 4 to 6 p .m. Eastern Time. Before I take any more of our listener questions, we have a few more.

Dr. Tony Costa, I want you to summarize in about 4 to 5 minutes time uninterrupted what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today before we go off the air.

Yes, I want our listeners to realize that salvation does not depend on the works that you do, because all our righteous deeds are filthy rags before God.

That it's not about who you are. It's not about whether you're a Jew or whether you're a

Gentile. It's not whether you're a male or a female. It's not whether you're a bond servant or whether you're a free man.

It's about your relationship with God through Jesus Christ. And that God has sent

His Son into the world to be the Redeemer, to be the Savior of sinners. And that it is only through Him and faith in His finished work on the cross of Calvary and His resurrection from the dead, through faith in Him, can we be saved.

And so one passage I just want to leave with our hearers, 1 Corinthians chapter 7 and verse 18.

And going to verse 20, the Apostle Paul, Was anyone at the time of this call already circumcised?

Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was anyone at the time of this call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision, for neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision but keeping the commandments of God.

Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called. And so if you are struggling with the

Hebrew Roots movement, please realize that no amount of good works that you do is going to save you.

The law will condemn you because when you break one point of the law, you're guilty of breaking all of the law.

The law was not given to save you. The law was given to show you that you were a sinner. And the law's function is to take you and to move you towards the

Savior. In other words, it is the law that is our tutor to lead us to Christ.

And so if you are a Christian and you have someone who's in the Hebrew Roots movement, don't give up.

Pray for them. Learn as much as you can about this group. And challenge your pastor to start talking about the importance of the

New Covenant and its relationship to the Old Covenant. Thank you. Well, we have

Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, who wants to know, what do the Hebrew Roots movement people believe about the death of Christ, the resurrection of Christ, and the ascension of Christ?

They believe the same thing Roman Catholics would say, that he died for our sins to redeem us.

But at the end of the day, the Hebrew Roots movement is synergistic, in that you have to cooperate with what

Christ has done. So Jesus has basically given you a head start.

He's paid the penalty. He's given you a head start. And now he expects you to faithfully obey him by keeping the law.

And so at the end of the day, it's really no different than what we see in Roman Catholicism or in the cult.

Well, I'm assuming that you would agree, however, as heretical and apostate as the

Church of Rome is officially, they do believe that Christ was the God -man who died on Calvary, and that it was only...

Yeah, I'm simply drawing the comparison in terms of works as a need for salvation.

But yes, you're absolutely right. The Roman Catholic Church adheres to the historic creeds of the Church, and that's why,

Chris, it's possible, in the Roman Church, to see

Roman Catholics come to faith in Christ. They hear the gospel preached, whether it's a priest or whoever it may be, when they hear the words of Scripture proclaimed,

God uses that wording and sovereignly changes the hearts of these people, considering that all the

Reformers, the Magisterial Reformers, were all saved in the Roman Catholic Church before they left. So you're absolutely right.

They still do hear Orthodox theology, but it's mixed in, of course, with man -made traditions.

But the very preaching of the Word, sometimes God will sovereignly take that and change their hearts.

And in due time, they do leave the Church of Rome. Yeah, and of course, if one were to ask

Pope Francis, where do you think the advocates of the Hebrew Roots movement will be after they die, he would say,

Heaven! So yes, well, if atheists can make it, they don't believe in God or anything.

So if the atheists can make it, so would the Hebrew Roots movement. Right, and if the

Catholic Catechism, the modern -day Catholic Catechism, says that anti -Trinitarian

Orthodox Jews and Muslims adore the same God, and that they will be in Heaven with us, well, then why wouldn't a

Hebrew Roots person be there? Exactly, precisely. Let's see here, we have

John in Bangor, Maine, who wants to know if, are there any buzz phrases and words and things that may be very unique to the

Hebrew Roots movement that will make us aware that they are, in fact, a part of that movement, if they don't mention it?

Yes, well, because Hebrew is such an important language, because it's the language of the

Old Testament, buzzwords would include things like Yeshua using the

Hebrew name of Jesus rather than the Greek form Jesus, or Latin form Jesus. Terms like Hashem, they'll use phrases like Baruch Hashem, which in Hebrew means blessed be the name.

They'll use Hebrew phrases like the Shema, which is hero Israel, the Lord our God, the

Lord is one. You could usually tell by the fact that they start using Hebrew words for these types of terms, and some of them will even take

Hebrew names, some of them, not all, but some will take Hebrew names to themselves. That's usually an indicator that you're dealing with a

Hebrew Roots movement person. Now, we have to go back again, though, to do some clarification.

There are many Messianic Jews who do the same thing, but the difference would be that they would rarely say somebody is lost if they did not use those words.

Correct, and Jews and outreach to Jews, it's understandable why, as Paul says,

I become all things to all people, to the Jew he becomes as a Jew, and so it's understandable that Jewish believers will refer to Jesus as Yeshua, because the name

Jesus to the Jewish here is a pejorative term. It's a word that denotes the Holocaust.

It reminds them of Nazi Germany who claimed to be Christians, and so the name Jesus, believe it or not, has a very pejorative connotation to the unbelieving

Jewish here. And so when Jewish people refer to the Old Testament as the

Tanakh, which is an acronym for the Torah, the Nevi 'im, the Ketuvim, the

Law of the Prophets, and the writing, these are terms that they're acquainted with. So my own eye,

Dr. Chris, when I visit my ophthalmologist, who's an unbelieving Jew, he calls me

Rabbi Kosta, because he says I know more Hebrew than his peers do. And when

I share the gospel with him, I will use words like Tanakh and Yeshua, Hamashiach, and these are terms that he can resonate with.

Now this is important, Chris, because in Rabbinic Judaism, they refer to Jesus as Yeshu, Y -E -S -H -U.

They drop out the A at the end, and the word Yeshu is a Hebrew word that means, may his name be blotted out.

So it's actually a curse word that is being used to refer to Jesus of Nazareth. Yeshua in Hebrew means salvation.

And so because they reject him as the Savior, the Rabbis in the Talmud denigrated

Jesus by referring to him by Yeshu. Wow, I never knew that. There's a lot of nasty things in there as well.

But in Jewish outreach, it's very common to see Jewish believers use

Jewish terminology that their hearers are familiar with. We have Christopher in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, and Christopher asks, do the

Hebrew Roots Movement followers believe that Orthodox Jews are saved? No, they don't think that they're saved because they reject

Jesus as the Messiah. And therefore, they can't be saved, because even though they keep the law, they have not found him whom the law speaks of, which is the

Messiah. So no, they would not consider Orthodox Jews as saved people. Well, we are out of time, and I want to make sure that our listeners have all the contact information that they need for all of our participants today.

First of all, Toronto Baptist Seminary can be found at tbs .edu, tbs, for Toronto Baptist Seminary, dot edu.

The New Covenant Church, New York City can be found at ncc .nyc, that's ncc for New Covenant Church, and nyc for New York City, ncc .nyc.

And the church where my co -host in studio,

George Jensen, he is the pastor of the First Church of God, the

Enola First Church of God in Enola, Pennsylvania. And that website is, and for some reason, let's see here.

Oh, it's enolacog .com. That's right. That's enolacog .com.

And Dr. Tony, I mean, I'm sorry. Yeah, Dr. Tony Costa, do you have any more contact information that you care to share?

Well, they could, my email's tmcos at rogers .com, tmcos at rogers .com.

They may also want to check out the YouTube channel. I've done a number of videos with my colleague, Pastor Sule Prince in Toronto.

It's called The Third Degree, T -H -I -R -D, The Third Degree. Just put my name,

Tony Costa, The Third Degree. We have a whole slew of videos there on apologetics. We just finished doing a series on Islam, and we're going to be coming out shortly with a series on black nationalism, responding to the black

Israelites and the Nation of Islam. So my website is tmcos .webs

.com, tmcos, all one word, .webs .com. Well, I've got to definitely have you back on to discuss the black

Israelite issue, which is an entirely different subject, although equally as heretical and damnable.

I want to thank all of you guys for being on the show today. It was great to see you again,

Pastor George Jensen. Thank you. And thank you for treating me to lunch today. I look forward to having you back on the program as soon as possible, especially if you treat me to lunch again.

And I want to thank Andy Woodard, and I want to tell you that I'm looking forward to you being my first time guest this

Friday, God willing, June 22nd, with Gary Rosenblatt, your treasurer and fellow evangelist there at New Covenant Church, New York City.

And of course, Dr. Costa, I look forward to seeing you on July 6th,

Friday, July 6th at 6 .30 p .m. at the First Baptist Church of New York City on the

Upper West Side of Manhattan. And also, I want to remind our listeners that he will be at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Medford, Long Island the

Sunday before that, Sunday, July 1st in Medford, Long Island. And you can go to hopereformedli .net

for more information on that speaking engagement. hopereformedli .net I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater