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Assign seat to sit in. My theology don't fit in. Black sheep of the Reformation sheep pen. Reformed. I'm just another Baptist. Baptized again. The bastard child of Anabaptist. Hostage child of Reformation society.
Bookshelf of dead men. Cigars, bourbons, and beer cans.
Bow ties, tattoos, and bearded men.
Hi, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the Open Air Theology Show. My name is Jeff. I'm one of the co-hosts of Open Air Theology. And I'm also one of the elders at Covenant Reformed Baptist Church in Tallahoma, Tennessee.
If you're ever in this area, please come check us out. Also, if you like the song to that intro, the single drops the 22nd of this month. And I'm going to need y 'all to go check that out.
We almost might need to do that song again. I'm just saying. Yeah. All right. One of y 'all go. Go ahead, Tom. Okay. Yeah. My name is Tom Shepherd. I'm with Grace Bible Church of Birney. I'm a member there, and I head up the evangelism team that goes out every weekend to Fredericksburg, San Antonio, Birney.
All over the place, making much of Christ in the open air, knocking on doors, having gospel conversations, and telling people to repent and believe. And I am blessed to be a part of the show with Open Air Theology and these yahoos.
Pass it down to that guy.
Hi there. I am Braden Patterson. I'm the pastor of Valley Baptist Church as of right now. Come December, though, I am having the great blessing of being called to be the pastor of Grace Bible Church of Moorpark, California.
If you live in Southern California, I would love to see you in December. Go check out Grace Bible Church in the meantime, but it'd be a great blessing. If you live in Southern Idaho, come worship God with me until December, until my family and I move.
I have a YouTube channel called ReformedXMormon, and it's all right being a co-host with these yahoos.
It's a great blessing. I'll tell you what, man. Sometimes I'm telling you what. What? Yeah. I'm just saying. Y 'all get on my nerves a little bit. Oh, Braden here, he can only talk for an hour tonight, so we can't get too crazy tonight.
We got to give him some grace. What are we talking about? Well, first we got to go through how our day was, right? Oh, yes. Yeah.
Did y 'all have a Lord's Day today? Yes, every day was set apart. As Reformed Baptists, we do that day and seven.
For sure. So how was your Lord's Day, Tom?
Man, it was really good. So this weekend we had Dr. John Streep, who is an ACBC counselor. Matter of fact, he's the president of ACBC Biblical Counselors. And he came and he did a conference on marriage.
And I'm telling you, I mean, the first day, you know, he set everything up. The second day, it was just ouch. It was not the big hurdles that we have, the big sins that we see in our life that mess us up, but the little things like irritability and it was convicting.
It was really convicting, but it was wonderful. I got to meet him and our whole church was a part of it. And then he preached today on bitterness, which was another ouch. It was just, it was so good. And then we went out both days doing evangelism in Bernie still, which made for a long day.
Latter, what was going on, but it was fantastic. And God is good. Good.
What about you, Brayden? How was yours? It was good. My co-elder here at Valley Baptist, he preached today. And so he preached on Galatians 3 verses 10 through 14 and just brought some interesting insights on how today, some things that are outside of religion, some cultural aspects of what people say.
You can't be a Christian and do X, Y, or Z things that are just not biblical. And so he really pulled that in and showing how we have modern day Judaizers that are both religious and non-religious Judaizers that that just make different classifications on on what a Christian is.
So it was, it was good. It was a blessing just to be able to worship with the saints here at Valley Baptist was awesome. And just to sit here to preach was good. How about you, Jeff?
Yeah, it was good, man. I feel like it started yesterday. Me and Red, we went out and evangelize. And man, I tell you what, yesterday was truly a blessing to be out there. It was raining here. So we preached in the rain for a little while.
And man, just we had a ton of people stopping, able to have good gospel conversations, was able to help a woman get into a homeless woman, get into find shelter and get into a rehab program. Like the Lord was just doing some some work out there.
And a lot of people heard the gospel and then come home, hung out with the family. And today I woke up for the Lord's day and it was really good, man. I preached on on John chapter 13, talking about washing feet and got the pail and water out and and wash some clean feet.
Now, I'm just playing. But I mean, like, you know, like the way that it presents itself, it seems like it's a positive wall. Right. Jesus tells us that this is something we should be doing. If we're not doing it, we need to understand why we're not doing it.
And I'm kind of touched on that a little bit today. And I'll get back into it next week on why it is that we do not wash feet. But other than that, it was a fantastic Lord's Day, man. It was truly blessing.
Had a lot of different people from my congregation walk up to me and tell me how much they really was blessed by the message. Although whenever I was preaching it, I felt off. I didn't feel like I was there.
So but I haven't I haven't heard it yet. I didn't feel like it was flowing well, so it was good to hear people say that it was.
Amen. If you or Tom ever try to greet me with a holy kiss, you're getting a holy fist, right?
And that little fist will slip underneath my glasses and poke me in the eye. I'll punch your eye out.
With those big hands. I heard a rumor that that that Pastor Braden Patterson might be coming to Texas here soon. Oh, yes. Going to hang out the old gray haired man. Yeah.
I figured it was time I spent some time with you before we we put you out.
Oh, you're not allowed to eat. You're not allowed to kill a deer in my yard.
Yeah, there's going to be at least three dead deer by the time I'm gone. You're going to wake up and there's just going to be a slit deer's neck right in front of the door. It's going to be great.
We're eating good in Texas. Let me catch someone up. So someone just asked about Jackson, just asked about the church building. We still haven't heard anything new. We're just waiting. I did speak with one of the well, the president of the.
The Duck River Baptist Association here who talked to the main guy over the church that we're getting it from, I spoke with him, had breakfast with him, and he mentioned that that they're not going to they're not trying to make money off of the building.
So that's a good thing. And so it looks pretty good. It looks like we're going to get it. And so when? I'm not sure. I was hoping we'd have it in October so that we could do some kind of outreach at that time, nearing the Halloween and Thanksgiving and Christmas to try to reach out to the neighborhood around us in a way to bless them.
But we'll see. That still can happen. I'm in the process right now of building me a new pulpit. And you got all the wood and everything. The legs for the pulpit will be here tomorrow. I had some handmade legs for it.
Yeah, it's not. It's going to be nice.
I heard you were standing on your last one and that's why it broke. Yeah, well, it is what it is.
Standing on a stump, standing on a pulpit.
Pulling the Steven Anderson on everybody. Yeah, for sure.
We are doing the show on what is a Reformed Baptist today, right?
Yeah, so the first thing that we got, so we are talking about what is a Reformed Baptist. And I'm going to name off because a lot of people, they just talk about the three C's. I'm going to name off my list.
And if y 'all have some other things, that's fine. We'll go over it, but we'll just go ahead.
Let me just say, point something out real fast, though. The reason that we want to do this, because being a Baptist really means that you believe in believers baptism. That's what qualifies you as being a Baptist.
And usually that you hold on to some form of congregationalism. Or yeah, being a congregationalist in some form or fashion. But there's a lot of people today that use the term Reformed Baptist who are not Reformed Baptists.
Stop using it, bro. Stop it. So many come at you. Look, if your Facebook profile has Reformed Baptist on it. And you're dispensational. Hang on. No, no, no. Stop, stop.
Listen. I'm going to blind you, Jeff. I know.
Before we hit the Cs and the Ds and the Ps, before we go through that. Y 'all about to Ps me off. One of the qualifications to be a Reformed Baptist is to learn how to toast a cigar. And what you want to do as a Reformed Baptist.
Pay attention, yo. You don't want the flame to touch the end of the cigar. Okay, so you have your cigar. And you kind of want to lightly just toast. This is the Reformed Baptist way to toast a cigar. No, no, no.
A Reformed Baptist way is the Zippo. No, it's not. Yes, the Zippo.
Old faithful. There we go. And now we get that started, you see. There's your C. There's your Calvinism. Right there.
See, I'm going to have to check the confession. I don't know if either of you are right on that.
Well, also, one of the things about being a Reformed Baptist. This goes for women, too. You can have a beer. Okay?
Oh, man. Oh, no, no. I've met some. I've met some. They need to shave. Y 'all women need to shave. This has gone sideways real quick, guys. Oh, boy. I mean, what do you expect? What do you expect?
Okay? What do you expect? We are the black sheep. The black sheep of the Reformation sheep pen. Okay, let's go. Okay, I got a list here. And this list is going to piss some people off. Okay? And that's okay.
Because if it does, you're just not a Reformed Baptist. Take it off your Facebook profile. Take it off your Twitter handles.
Take it off your YouTube stuff. You ain't a Reformed Baptist. Stop it. Look, you're just muddying the water. And we live in a culture that shouldn't be muddying the water any more than it already is. Stop it.
We baptize in clean, clear water. That's right. That's right. All right.
Let me get to my list. And y 'all can add. But we'll go through and talk about it. Right? First one is Catholic, credo, creedal, confessional, covenantal, Calvinistic, long gospel distinction. And we host the means of grace.
That's my list. Cessationist. Well, yeah, but we have to define.
I'm a neo-cessationist just so everybody knows. Neo.
I would call myself a biblical cessationist. Because we're not in agreement on cessationism, I kind of did not put that in there. However, we can talk about that. And we're going to be doing a show on cessationism in the future.
How about this?
Cessationism in the sense of the close of canon and that there's no more apostles that are speaking authoritatively for the church. For sure. That's cessationism. Close canonist. I'm going to go with that.
Yeah, we're close canonist. But cessationist, though, is one of the C's is all I'm trying to say. Yeah, for sure. For sure.
He's only got an hour. There's two C's in there. I'm just saying there's two C's in close canonist.
There is. There's more C's in close canonist.
Michelle, we were wondering about you, girl. Who we got? We got Michelle. We got Melissa.
Oh, we got Red. Got Nathan. We got a good man. Please be sharing this around with everybody. We really want to hope. We hope that this creates a little bit of a wave amongst those that are claiming to be a reformed Baptist.
That shouldn't be.
Sharon. We're 16 minutes and we haven't even started yet. Get back to your list. What was number one? So the first one. Catholic. We are a reformed Baptist. It's Catholic. Now, what do we mean by Catholic, Brayden?
Not Roman Catholic. Yeah, for sure. I had a witness. We was talking to one of those the other day, but also met a really good gentleman. Really nice gentleman who's who's a Catholic that seems to. Well, I feel like he lied to me for a second because but then I had to show him that he's conflating some things.
However, I don't think he actually realized he was lying to me. And so I'm hoping to have some continual conversation for him. But what do we mean by Catholic?
It means the universal universal body of Christ. So if you are a part of the body of Christ, meaning Christ paid for your sins, you're in the left person. You are a sheep. You are a part of the Catholic Church universal.
Right. So we would also say that that the Catholic Church is made up of of everybody that is in Christ. They are professing believers. They are not only professing believers, but they are actually in Christ.
They are true believers in Christ. Absolutely. All right. Are we good there?
Yeah. All right. So then the next one. Prado. This is where we're baptistic, right? We believe that only believers are baptized. Now, this separates us from Roman Catholic as well as other Protestant denominations that are a part of the reformation.
Right. So this is a this is distinct for us who come out of the reform movement. Right. I was about to say something else. I better chill out because I about jumped over to another one. It's really hard to keep this in order.
Right. Right. So we believe that, you know, that a person has to enter into the new covenant, which is the new birth. I mean, they enter into the kingdom and that in the kingdom of God, the covenant that surrounds the kingdom of God is the new covenant.
And in order to enter into that kingdom, that covenant, you must be born again. And then when a person is born again, they receive the sign of the covenant. Right. Continuity with the old covenant. When someone entered into the old covenant, the earthly kingdom, people of God, the Jews, they had to first enter in by birth.
And if they were a male child, they partook in the sign of the covenant, which was circumcision. Translate that over to what we're saying in the new covenant. A person is to enter this new covenant kingdom of God by being born again.
And those who are born again, male and female, receive the new covenant sign, which is baptism. That's right. Amen. All right. Y 'all have anything y 'all want to add to that? Let's talk about it.
Nope. I would just say to Jackson, somebody that commented on our YouTube, we did do an episode on R. Scott Clark, because he does argue that Baptists shouldn't be using the word reformed. Yeah. The whole confession, the 1689, it was written to show commonality and trying to show unity along with the Presbyterians and the congregation lists.
Right. And so just because the term particular Baptist was being used back then, it was distinguished. It was to distinguish yourself from the general Baptists, which was trying to show association with the other reformed groups.
And so just because that term wasn't being used in that that time period doesn't mean that they weren't arguing that they were to reformed, reformed. Typically, reform means the three C's, which is confessional, Calvinistic and covenantal.
And so that's what reformed Baptist you're going to see here in a moment are. And so that there is such a thing as a reformed Baptist. Sorry, R. Scott Clark. You're wrong.
That's right. That's right. Yeah. And so the particular right there, when they called us particular Baptist, it was just pointing out that we hold to particular redemption. We hold to limited atonement.
Right. The general Baptist for going astray. And actually, if you if you extend that out, it was turning into universalism that got everyone.
So which are Calvinism in that time, because there are Calvinistic Baptists that come to the same conclusions regarding doctrines of grace as reformed Baptists do. But back then to be coming to the conclusion of Calvinism was meaning that you were a confessional Calvinist, that you held to the confession.
And because of covenant theology, you were swated to believe in Calvinism. And so by saying that you were a particular Baptist, you were saying, I believe in covenant theology like my other Presbyterian brothers and sisters in the faith do it with some some nuances here there.
But there was unity with that reformed. Yeah. But Credo, yes. Amen. You said, Jeff. Amen. A hundred percent. The sign the sign does not come before birth. It's birth entrance into the kingdom and then sign taking.
That's that's how we always use.
You know, I've said this before on here. I don't mean to be grotesque, but but the Jews did not enter into the mother's womb before the child was born to circumcise them. Right. Nor should we baptize anyone who has not come out of the canal of the new birth.
That's right.
But also in in in Genesis, when it's talking about the the covenant with Abraham, the the old covenant, even people that were Gentiles that would come in, it says if you purchase a slave, then you're to circumcise them.
But the question is, is what came first, the circumcision or the purchasing? Yeah. Purchasing and then the circumcision. So it's still that continuity and discontinuity that we see between these two things.
First, you are born again. You are partakers of Christ and then he purchases with his blood. Then you receive the sign. It's it's this clear, clear line between both Jew and Gentile be born again.
Yeah. Baptists are not big on putting carts before the horses. That's right. We want we want the horse to pull the cart. And so that's where our Presby brothers and sisters fall off the wagon. They fall off the wagon because the wagon is in front of the horses.
That's right. It doesn't work. All right. The third one. We're cradle. We're cradle. What does that mean, Tom? Well, we hold to a creed. We hold to a creed. I don't like doing the creed. I wanted to do the Calvinistic one.
OK, I'll skip you then. You know, you can handle the cradle. All right. Well, that just means that we hold to the historical creeds of the church, particularly myself. I hold to the four ecumenical creeds.
So so each each month at our church, we read for a whole month, one of the creeds. Right now, we're going through the Nicene. Next month, we'll read through the apostles. Then after that, the cost of the Chalcedonian definition.
Then after that, the alpination. And that's how we begin our service. We begin our service, aligning ourself with one of the four ecumenical creeds, which points us back to Catholic. Right. So essentials of the faith.
The essentials of the faith, right? The I believes or the we believes. Right. And so we would say that we are cradle. We align with the historical four ecumenical creeds.
And that that just goes to show that we believe in solo scripture and total scriptura. But we don't believe in solo scriptura, meaning that we don't ignore what Christians have taught on the subject. We don't want to be independent in our faith away from the church at large.
And so the if you are a Baptist and you are trying to claim the title of a reformed Baptist, but you're walking around with the saying, I have no creed but Christ. Right. Stop it. Yeah. You ain't a reformed Baptist and you should have all the creeds.
Creeds are a good thing. In fact, that statement, no creed but Christ is a creed because of creed. That's a creed. Right. We don't believe about Christ. Who is he? What is he doing? Yeah. And I want to be in harmony with all other Christians on these things.
I was just to say, Keith Foskey actually had a had a question. You know, he said, he said, you know, when people come up, when you ask a person if they're a Christian and they would say they're a Christian, you know, you still have a lot of questions.
You know, regarding what they believe. When you're creedal, it kind of answers those questions. When you say that you're a Calvinist, it also answers a whole bunch of questions of actually where you stand and what you believe.
That's right. About those people. That's right. It's a creedal.
Are we good? Yeah. All right. We're rolling through them. I didn't think it was going to do it. It's going to be an hour. We might even get done in 45 minutes. What else are we going to talk about? Well, if so, I'll pick on you.
I would also say that the creeds are something that also distinguishes us from false religions, too, real quick on that. Mormonism, as we talked last week, Joseph Smith, the way that the church, the way that the LDS church, the latter day, the latest day saints, as we called it last week, how they've gone about showing what Joseph Smith said in the 1800s was that supposedly he was told that all our creeds are an abomination.
And the side of the Lord. And so that's talking about the Nicene Creed. I would also say that that's talking about specifically the confessions, because that's what I remember learning a lot on when I was LDS.
But also, I mean, the creed, like, I believe that I'm saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, according to scripture alone, all for God's glory alone. That's a creedal statement. That's the creeds from the Reformation that we hold to.
And Joseph Smith said, no, creeds are abomination lies of the Lord. And so being creedal is important beyond just the title of being a reformed Baptist. You should be a reformed Baptist. But creeds are particularly important.
All right.
What was next? Next is confessional. You have to be confessional. You have to be anchored in the 17th century with a confessional document. Right.
Right. Now, why is it important to hold to a confession? Tell everybody why.
What is it? Let me name some of the confessions, and then I'll stop talking for a minute and let someone else take the mic. But I can do whatever. But I was just so. So. So whether you're First London.
So if you're Baptist, you can go to the First London, which which has a update. So the First London is 1644, but it was updated in 1646. And then the one that we hold to was written in 1677, but wasn't published till 1689.
As for the Presbyterians, they would hold to the Westminster, which is also produced in 1646. But also, I think it was actually published in 1647, if I'm not mistaken. But depending on what website you get, you get a different year.
I was told that truly true Presbyterians hold to the say that it's 1646, no matter what it says. And then you have the Savoy decoration. Written by John Owen. Yeah. I mean, I mean, yeah. So to be rooted and found it in a confession.
Brayden, if you want to kick off why we hold to a confession, I think it's the question you asked, correct?
Yeah. Why? So I think it goes back to that same argument of creed. So in 1 Timothy 3, Paul writing to Timothy in the first century, he says,. And so this is a first century creedal statement that was already in circulation in the early churches before this Holy Scripture was written.
And it made its way into Holy Scripture. So creedal statements are totally OK as long as they're in harmony with Scripture. In fact, I think Paul is actually encouraging common confession with one another.
And so when we add more, so it, as Tom already said, if somebody said, I'm a Christian, I have a lot of questions regarding what they believe, right? A lot of questions because anybody can LDS are claiming that title.
However, if somebody came up to me and said, I'm a Christian who believes in the five solas and I hold to the 1646 Westminster Confession of Faith and I go to and I'm a part of a crack church, right? Immediately my mind's popping in with definitions of what they're talking about, who they're a part of, what they associate with, where their theology is landing.
I can almost assume insinuate that they're most likely post post millennial without them even saying it. Right. And so being a confession, having a confession is a document that's well worded, that shows your unity with other believers.
And listen, when, when I sign my name to the 1689, for example, and I'm not saying I literally signed my name to the 1689, but when I say I'm a 1689 reformed Baptist, my name is sitting next to hundreds of thousands of other Baptists who said, this is what we see in Scripture as well.
And so great, great is the common confession amongst brothers. And so that's, that's the point that I would say what's being confessional is it clearly defines what we believe. If I go and talk to somebody on the street and they want to know more about my beliefs, I can just hand them a book and they can take it home and know exactly what I believe and they can use it as a ministering witnessing tool to themselves.
Right. It's one thing to say, I believe the Bible, right? I believe the Bible. Amen. I believe the Bible, but I believe the Bible doesn't tell me what you believe about the covenants. It doesn't tell me what you believe about what Christ did.
It doesn't tell you what justification.
It helps keep Christians aligned into a faith. You know, when you go to an orchestra and you hear everybody playing a sheet of music and everybody's playing in the same melodic line, it keeps us in guide right here.
As soon as somebody goes outside, the confession helps us stay inside about what it is that we believe. And so when you just look at the chapter titles in the 1689, what is, what is the 1689? What do we believe about the Holy scriptures?
Well, it's based on what the Bible says about itself. What does the Bible say about the scriptures? What does the Bible say? And what do we believe about God's decree? What do we believe about sanctification, justification, God's covenant, all these things.
So it helps us from, from going astray outside the faith, uh, into some heresy. That's the importance of a confession.
Another thing that I find that is quite remarkable that I've seen amongst those that claim the title of reformed Baptist. They typically love C .H. Spurgeon, which everybody loves C .H. Spurgeon, right?
You can't, you don't ever really find somebody that doesn't like Spurgeon. This is what the Spurgeon, this is what Spurgeon says regarding the 1689, but the confession, he says, this ancient document is the most excellent epitome of the things most surely believed among us.
It is not issued as an authoritative rule or code of faith whereby you may be fettered, but as a means of edification and righteousness. It is an excellent, though not inspired expression of the teaching of those Holy Scriptures by which all confess that confessions are to be measured.
We hold to the humility, humbling truths of God's sovereign grace and the salvation of lost sinners. Salvation is through Christ alone and by faith alone. So Spurgeon was a reformed Baptist. He was not just a Calvinistic Baptist, right?
He was a reformed Baptist.
Amen. Yes. So again, for all y 'all people out there who claim, notice the word claim, claim to be reformed Baptist. In order to be reformed Baptist, you have to be confessional. You have to hold to a reformed Baptist confession of faith.
And now I say that not trying to be mean, it's just spitting, spitting truth.
I like definitions. And one of my biggest pet peeves is when definitions get stolen and then muddied and then changed and then adapted and then lowered. And then it just fits more and more people.
It's so frustrating. Which we would see that kind of in the Baptist faith and message in a way. It's a light interpretation of the 69. And it strays. It's a watered down confession. Whereas it makes it more plausible.
It makes it more easy to believe. It's more inclusive. And so if your whole idea is to grow the church in numbers, one of the best ways to do that, humanly speaking, is to be inclusive. So there's a distinction.
A reformed action has a distinction. Yes, we want to include all those who think rightly, who divide the scriptures rightly by what it says. So it says to study, to show yourselves approved unto God, a workman meaning not being ashamed rightly, accurately handling the word of truth.
And so that's what the confession does. It accurately handles the infallible word of God.
Yeah. I would say that if like a reformed Baptist church, if you were to go to a truly reformed Baptist church, what I'm saying is that all the elders and maybe even the membership hold to the 1689. And that just brings about unity.
That just shows a harmony. I like that illustration you did, Tom, with the art orchestra. Like it would be not good if you had somebody playing jazz music and someone doing the piano and somebody doing Beethoven and like all these different things going on.
It wouldn't sound good. Right. And so that's the whole point of this is that this is this is showing that we have unity in the in the deep matters of God and scripture. Right. All right. Are we ready for the next one?
All right. Covenantal. We're not only confessional, we are covenantal. By covenantal, we mean we hold to Baptist covenant theology, also known as 1689 federalism. Now, can you be a reformed Baptist and hold to the Presbyterian classical covenant theology?
Yes. Yes.
We ain't happy about it, but yes.
We got some problems with you and we ain't afraid to talk about them. Right. Y 'all can do y 'all's little, you know, messages about it all you want, but you're not bringing it to the forefront. You're not bringing it to those that have an issue with it.
Right.
And you. So here's another question that people aren't going to like. Can you be dispensational and hold to the 1689? Absolutely not.
Nope. Because the chapter seven of the 1689. No, it's seven. What are you talking about? Oh, sorry. Seven. Sorry. My fault. My fault. Listen, in order to be a reformed Baptist, you got to know where it talks about covenant theology.
Shush. Shush.
Shush. How dare you? The other day I corrected you on a chapter and it was a deep chapter.
It was like chapter 24. You did, but here's the difference. We don't open our theology. Yeah, we were. People saw it. It was at the end of the show. I don't believe it. Listen, I got to see some document proof.
Here's the question, Jeff.
Answer this question. Why is it? Why is it that the confession, the London Baptist confession of faith will be inclusive? Why is it acceptable to include Presbyterian covenant theology and Baptistic covenant theology?
What about the confession makes it loose right there, but yet a dispensational wouldn't be included in there?
Well, it's only loose in chapter seven. As you keep reading chapter eight, chapter nine, chapter 10, so on and so forth, it strengthens chapter seven, that covenant. And it distinctly puts it in the position of Baptistic, that the covenant that we hold to is Baptistic.
It's been coined 1689 federalism. I'm not really big on that name. I call it Baptist covenant theology. And so. Now, I think we have our own form of covenant theology in which in which I would like if I was around a Presbyterian and he was arguing with someone about a dispensationalist about covenant theology.
Or if I was around a Baptist that was arguing with a dispensational about covenant theology, I would align with him at that moment and help him in that argument. And then after we defeated that person, we'd go toe to toe on what it really is.
Right. Because covenant theology, even if it's Presbyterian covenant theology, is better than dispensationalism. Right now. Tell us why. Why would you say that? Why would I say that?
What what does it do? There's there's two extremes. You have Presbyterian covenant theology, which would be all which would expand the covenant of grace over all covenants. Right. Dispensationalists would be totally distinct from the New Testament.
Right. To me, it's two sides of it's a road with two sides of a ditch. Right. And I'm trying to stay on the main highway. The main highway to me is Baptist covenant theology. And if I gear off at any side, I'm going to be falling off into error.
Right. And it's two sides of the error. Right. There are two extremes. Dispensational on the other side. Correct. And I see reformed Baptist covenant theology being on the road, driving the car, the vehicle on the road.
And particularly like like if I want to be. I want to be specific. It has to do with the covenant of grace. Right. I want to I want to make sure that I'm that I'm saying something clear. That's clear me.
It's intelligible. You understand what I say. Like, I don't want to conflate anything. And so when I say that when I talk about the covenant of grace, I am particularly talk specifically talking about the new covenant.
Amen. The new covenant is the covenant of grace. Amen. And so that would that's what makes Baptist covenant theology different than Presbyterian covenant theology, because they would say that the old covenant is the covenant of grace.
And each covenant is an administration of the one covenant of grace. And we're saying, no, those old covenants, Adamic, Mosaic, Adamic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic, they're all a covenant of works. Because there were conditions.
There were conditions. Right. There's conditions you had to meet. If you didn't meet, there was a prohibition. There was a punishment attached to it. The covenant of grace. There is none. However, we would say that the new covenant is a covenant of works.
It's just fulfilled on our behalf by the act of impassive obedience of Jesus Christ. Amen. Which is given to us, which makes it grace for by grace. You have been saved because of what Christ has done for us through the new covenant.
Because as goes the kingdom king. So goes the kingdom.
Amen. I think the biggest difference between covenantal theology and dispensationalism is the way they view Israel and the church. We are Israel. Amen to that. And the bleeding Israel, members of Israel, ethnic Jews before the cross.
You're breaking up a little bit, brother.
Are y 'all having trouble with him? Yeah, he's breaking up a little bit.
It sounds like his mind. In that.
It's him too. But Brayden, so if you're hearing real quick. So also two. C's right there. Christ-centered versus Israel-centered. Would you agree with that?
Yeah. All right. Yeah. I was trying to look for a quote real fast. The view of a distinction between Israel and the church came about in the 1800s from John Nelson Darby, the father of dispensationalism.
And so you cannot be a reformed Baptist and hold to a whole systematic on how to read your Bible that came about after the 1689. That is contrary to all of the Christians before the 1800s. This is it.
So Justin Martyr on this very subject on who they. Because there was no issue of this before the 1800s. No one had this view that there was a distinction between Israel and the church until the 1800s.
So dialogue with Typho the Jew, Justin Martyr, versus this. For the spiritual Israel and descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ. It has always been the teaching for 1800 years that true Israel, spiritual Israel, whatever title we want to give it, was those that believe in Jesus Christ.
And therefore, they were a part of the church. You can go and look at all the different commentaries that John Calvin has on the subject. And he very clearly calls Old Testament believers a part of the church.
Covenantal theology sees a unity between both the Old Testament and New Testament and not a discontinuity of the people of God. It's always been the people that believed in God are the people of God.
So the one people of God are those who are adopted in the family by the covenant of grace, under the covenant of grace.
Yeah, I would say it's the spiritual descendants of Abraham. You can be a physical descendant of Abraham and also be a spiritual descendant of Abraham. Only the spiritual descendants of Abraham are in, are saved through the new covenant, which is the covenant of grace.
Yes, amen.
I just, I preached last week. Sorry, if I break up again, let me know. I preached last week on this very subject. And John the Baptist, when speaking to the Pharisees, he says, do not think to yourself that you have your father, that you have Abraham as your father.
John the Baptist says this. Jesus with Zacharias, Zacharias, Zacharias. He tells Zacharias that salvation has come to his household that day and that he is a son of Abraham. So. There, there's several occasions, even before the book, even before the letters of Paul's where Christ and other people are saying those that believe in Jesus are the sons of Abraham, a part of Israel.
That's what Paul is writing about in Romans chapter two. If you've been circumcised of the heart, you're a Jew. Those that have been circumcised of the flesh aren't. The argument in Galatians chapter three, that if you have the same faith that Abraham had in the same gospel that Abraham believed in, which put yourself back in the churches, the churches of Galatia's shoes.
They're being antagonized by Judaizers who are ethnically Jew and are making the argument. You have to be circumcised in order to be considered Christian, which is they're trying to say in order to be a Jew, you have to be circumcised.
You need to be circumcised churches of Galatia. And Paul says, no, you are a son of Abraham through faith. And that's how it's always been. That's right. There's not to believe something other than that is a false gospel.
So you are a part of Israel. If you believe in Jesus Christ and a story. Yep. True Israel. Ephesians two says you're a part of the Commonwealth. You who are foreigners of the covenants of promise have now been brought near through the blood of Jesus Christ.
Amen. Very good.
And he didn't break up on that later. Good. Perfect. I broke up on the exact Kia. So something happened. Y 'all make the math sometimes. All right. Everyone's favorite point. Right. The one that everyone gets the claws out.
Calvinistic. Amen. Listen, this doesn't mean three and four points. Okay. No.
Again, do not take the title. Perform Baptist. If you're saying I'm a four point Calvinist. That's not how this works.
As R .C. Sproul says, we call those Armenians.
I gave a sermon on this topic back in February at the open air theology conference on why Calvinism. It was covenant theology, Calvinism within covenants. And I think I made a pretty good argument in there that Calvinism.
You can be a Calvinist outside of covenant theology. But my Calvinism stems from from my covenant theology. Product of covenant. Yeah. So covenant theology is is in separately and separately tethered to covenant theology.
So if you're claiming that you're a Calvinist without covenant theology, without the confessions. Okay. You came to the same conclusion on the soteriology topic. You got there.
Reform Baptist. Yeah. All you got is a hammer and everything's a nail. That's right. That's how I view it. Right. But if all you are is a Calvinist, all you have is a hammer and everything's a nail. Yeah.
When you hold to covenant theology. Right. And I would say for us Baptists, this is Baptist covenant theology. You have a tool belt and you have a shed full of tools. You can build something. And Calvinism, that that hammer is just a tool that we use from the tool belt.
It's everything. Calvinism is not the sun. Everything else is rotating around it. Well, I guess that that depends if you're around earth or flat earth. All right. But we don't get into that right now.
Yeah.
Those cans of worms. In order to be a reform Baptist, you got to believe that the earth is flat. I'm just kidding. I just can't. Don't sound like that. That's terrible.
I was at a conference.
The G3 conference. Matter of fact, the last G3 conference that they had in Countryside Bible Church. And they had had a Q &A. And they had Josh Bice and Joel Beek. He was on there. Virgil Walker was there.
And then they had Tom Pennington and Steve Lawson over there. And they were asking, what is reform? What is a person who is reformed? And as far as Tom Pennington and Steve Lawson would go, was Calvinistic.
And Beek was saying, no, it's more than that. It's more than that. But they couldn't go on earth. So they wanted to be included. And that's why you have G3 right now that is accepting all G3 network churches.
That if you hold the Calvinism, basically. Or if you somewhat agree with the 1689, that you can be included in the network. But it doesn't hold water. You're not there. You're not there. Just because you believe in Calvinism does not mean that you're reformed.
And so as far as Tom Pennington and Steve Lawson went, they had to stop it short. Everybody else was saying, no, there's more than that. There's more than just Calvinism. Amen. Yeah. And Calvinism is good.
Yes, it is. I mean, they're holding to truce that we believe in the total depravity of man. Unconditional love.
Limited attunement. And I would also add the reason why you see so many people who are making, these anti-Calvinist people who are making channels, staying, they have the YouTube channels. And I once was a Calvinist.
All these people that are doing this were, in fact, that kind of Calvinist. A Calvinistic Baptist. A Calvinistic Baptist. They were not reformed. That's right. Yeah. Like I haven't seen a reformed Baptist come out and have a YouTube channel saying that I was reformed.
I used to be a Calvinist. Like Layton Flowers would say that I was reformed. No, you wasn't. He doesn't even know what eschatology is. Right.
So back at the conference, he was clearly a dispensational, even though he didn't ever claim that. Yeah, but he didn't even know what that was. That's what I'm saying. If you don't even understand what dispensationalism is or covenant theology is, you were never a Calvinist in the same sense that a reformed Baptist is.
Right. Yeah. And I really do think that confessional Calvinism is where it's at. You think about the covenant and you think about Israel, was the Canaanites a part of Israel? No, Israel was its own thing.
Right. When they made a sacrifice, it was for Israel, not Canaanites. Right. It was for Israel. So then you take that same principle of, okay, this is the group of people it was for. Well, what is Christ?
Those that are in the new covenant, this group of people. So you have limited atonement right there. You have irresistible grace that's demonstrated there. It's so abundantly clear when you hold the covenant theology.
It's remarkable.
Yeah. And here's another thing. You can be a Calvinistic Baptist and not be covenantal, but you can't be a covenantal Baptist and not be Calvinistic. Right. That's right. Amen. Because one doesn't hold on to the other, but the other formats the one, the Calvinistic, right?
Yeah. Which makes Calvinism a tool in the tool belt. Right. So if I'm having a debate with someone and they start, you know, they start mentioning how God deals with his people. I'm going to pull out my covenant, my covenant card.
God deals with his people in covenants. In covenants.
That's right. You guys have used really good analogies tonight. I got to, I got to think of one now.
Listen, I just fly off the cuff, son. Okay. I don't even know what I'm going to say until it comes out of my mouth. Yeah, that was good. I'm going to write that down. I go back and listen to this later and use it in the pulpit.
Okay. Jackson and Sammy. Yeah. There's no way. There's absolutely no way. Yeah. No. Yeah. I've never truly believed that he was actually a Calvinist. I would also say the same thing for Jason Britta. Yeah.
Not at all.
I don't even know. Again, Jackson just pointed out another thing. Young restless and reform never made it to the reform part. Just hipster Calvinist. So yeah, again, like there is a difference between the Calvinism, maybe not the end, the end product.
There's a difference on how they get to it between a reformed Baptist and a non reformed Baptist or just a non reformed Christian.
So in covenant theology, like Jeff just said, that he deals with a relationship with him as the covenant that he is established with man. How did God establish that relationship with men at that time?
And then how does he establish a relationship with true believers? It's only through the blood of Christ, the one mediator between God. And so it's the Calvinist that Calvinism is totally based on covenant theology, Baptist covenant theology.
Yep.
What's the next one, Jeff? Let's hear it. All right. The next one is law and gospel distinction, law and gospel distinction. Listen to me, Baptist. If you do not have a long gospel distinction, stop it.
Yeah. Stop it. Stop it. Okay. We'll say it like, yes. Don't. Just stop it. Tell us why, Jeff. Tell us why. Because the law is not the gospel and the gospel is not the law. Although in the law, there is good news.
And in the gospel, there is positive laws. There's positive commands. However, the two are not the same, right? Whenever Jesus says, I am the law. No, he said, he says, John 8, 12. I am the light of the world.
Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness. Right? All right. So we're called to follow Jesus. So if I tell you, hey, follow Jesus, I am giving you a command. I am not giving you the gospel. If I tell you to repent and believe, I am giving you a command.
I never once told you the gospel. Even if I said repent and believe the gospel, I'm still only barking commands. I'm telling you to do something. That is not the gospel. Now, whenever I say something like Christ died for your sins, according to the scriptures, was buried on the third day, rose again, according to the scripture, for by grace you have been saved through faith and is not of yourselves.
It is the gift of God, not of so and so forth. Right? Right there, I'm spitting gospel. I'm telling you gospel. I'm telling you what was done for you. That's right. And so whenever I witness to someone, I give them the gospel, and then I give them a positive command to do something.
Right? Our response is not the gospel. You're telling someone to do something is not the gospel. You're giving them the law.
Right. It's like if you go into a room and there's a cop and a felon there, you want those things to be distinct. Because if you have those things come together and mix, then it's just a crooked cop and it's not good.
It's still somebody that can't be trusted. So if you mix gospel and law together, you've lost what the gospel is in the first place. That's my analogy.
Boom. That's my big issue with Creek churches. Like those, the Doug Wilson denomination. Well, Doug Wilson was saying that it's all law and it's all gospel. Right. No. As a matter of fact, that is federal vision.
That's right. That's what. So, so if you want to argue about him being federal vision, what makes him federal vision, in my opinion is that he does not have a law and gospel distinction. Right. The law is not the gospel.
The imperative is not the indicative.
Right. He's taken the beauty of the spherical earth and he smashed it down into a flat earth and made it all the same. Well, one of the.
One of the best illustrations that I've heard that actually Brady came up with on, on this was here, is that God did not throw down the law as a rope to be able to climb yourself up. Because we know that the scripture says by the works of the law, no man will be justified.
Rather that local will be something that you hang yourself with. That's right.
And that's our boy. I mean, even if you tell someone to believe in Jesus, like if you tell somebody to believe in Jesus, you're telling them to do something. You have not told them what Christ has done.
That's right. Yeah.
So what did Christ do? He, he came to fulfill the law, the law that we were required to live, but could not live. He came to live in our place. And one of the best quotes that I always say that God became a man to live as a man, to, to live that perfect life that we are required to live because that in order to have a relationship with God, because he's so holy, we must live perfectly.
Jesus said himself be perfect for my father in heaven is also perfect. Well, guess what? None of us are perfect, but he sent his son. He sent his son born of a virgin, born under the law, Galatians four.
And he came to live that life and the act of obedience with the purpose of dying on the cross, paying the penalty, penalty of our sin, giving us power over sin. Romans chapter six, that when we died with cry, he, he died.
We died. When he was raised from the dead, there will be a day that we will be raised and even saved from the very presence of sin.
Let's real quick answer Melissa's point right here. She says, I do show people the law in order to point them to Christ, show them the law and where they fail, then hit them with the gospel. So listen, so that right there is the first use of the law and the three uses of the law.
So the first use of the law is what's called a mirror, right? And so we use the law to show people their sin. So imagine I got a mirror in my hand and so I'm taking the law and I'm showing them the law.
I'm reflecting the law to them where they can see that there is a center, but it also, it showed like, if I look at the law, it shows me that I'm a center, right? So as a Christian, we live in what's called a Satan center reality.
I am positionally righteous before God because of what Christ has done. And yet I still live in this flesh, which pulls at me to fulfill its desires. You see what I'm saying? All right. So the first use of the law is that we use the law to show people that they're sinners.
The second use of the law is what's called a curb and it's what governments should, should use God's law as a curve to keep people from being as evil as they can be. The third use of the law, this is where we'd have the law and gospel distinction.
The third use of the law is we read our Bibles with Christ, the finished work of Christ being our flashlight. So as we're reading, as we're reading through the law and we see stuff like keep this covenant and live.
Right. Well, we know, okay, well, Christ kept this covenant so I can live. So I'm not keeping it in order to live. However, because he's put his spirit in me, he has given me the ability to keep it imperfectly, but not even my own ability.
So when I do something, I can't be, you know, back padding theology, bootstrap theology. I'm looking to Christ for all that. And so when I witnessed the people, I use the law and the gospel as well. Go ahead.
Even say that our sanctification is monogeristic. It's nothing that we are.
Yeah. First Corinthians chapter one versus 30 and 31.
Yeah. Experientially it's synergistic though, in the sense that you and I are still. Salvation is the same thing.
Yeah. All that the father gives me will come to me. We come to Jesus. Why? Because we were given to him. He grants us faith and repentance, repentance, and faith. We actually repent and believe, but it's because it's given to us.
We would also say,.
We would also say, so nobody under misunderstands. This is, we're not saying that the law was bad. No, it's good. Law is holy. Very good. Law is eternal. You know, that's why people are judged at the end, because God's law is eternal.
It represents his very character, his very character. So it's good, but that's, that's how holy he is. That's his love. That's his eternality. That's all the communicable attributes wrapped up in the one verse.
So there's one verse that just should shut the argument down. And it's John chapter one. Let me get it pulled up. I want to quote, I can quote it, but I just want to pull it up here and read it to you real quick.
John chapter one, verse 17. For the law was given through Moses. Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. There's a difference. Grace and truth. I can actually say Moses and Jesus, and actually say law and grace.
Yep. That's right.
One thing I, I'm gonna bounce this off you guys. This is something that's been on my mind recently. It's from that book I'm reading for seminary. And it brings out something that I think is interesting in Genesis three that I, I've never caught on before.
It says in Genesis three, verse 22, it says, this is the Lord God speaking in here talking about man and woman. He says now, lest he reach out his hand and take also the tree of life and eat and live forever.
Therefore, the Lord God sent him out from the garden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man. And at the east of the garden of Eden, he placed the chair of them in a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.
And something that this, this book is articulating that I find just fascinating is that Adam and Eve, they, they, they partook and broke the positive command of God. They become now sinners before God.
They have guilt on them in that sin. Could they ever do anything that would make them unsinful ever again? They can't do nothing about that. And God even guards the tree so that they would not fall into further sin, trying to seek their own righteousness before God.
He says, don't let the meat of it guard the tree because they can't become unholy again or become, they can't unholy themselves. You see what I'm saying? They, they can't un-unsin themselves. They can't bring themselves out of the pit of despair that they are in now.
However, how does the book of the Bible end for us? Well, there's a tree of life and there's no tree of knowledge of good and evil anymore, but there's a tree of life that we can now approach because Christ has covered us with his righteousness.
That's so good. And I want, I want to go to Romans chapter 10 verse one. It says, brothers, my heart's desire and my prayer is to God for them is for their salvation. For I testify, talking about the Jews, for I testify about them that they had a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge for not knowing about the righteousness of God and seeking to establish their own.
They did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God for Christ is the end of the law for the righteous to everyone who believes in Christ. Yeah,.
That's who we live with. And also I point out Galatians chapter one, verse 21. This is something I use when I do open air preaching a lot. Paul says, I do not nullify the grace of God for if righteousness were through law keeping, then Christ died for no purpose.
Absolutely. Like you can actually say if law keeping were through law keeping, right? Or if you're being made right with God, we're through law keeping. Christ died for nothing. Paul said, I do not want to remove the grace of God for if righteousness, if there was any other way you can get, get to God outside of Christ, uh, Peter, the Roman, you know, the, the, the, the scope of Rome right now that we got going on, all religions lead to God.
Uh, Paul says if there's any, if, if you can do anything, then Christ died for no, for no purpose. All right. So when, so, so, so, so if you just examine that with what's being said, uh, uh, uh, you mentioned earlier about Romans chapter 10, right?
One through five, they established their own righteousness, right? You have the Adamic covenant. Uh, uh, Adam broke that covenant. And so all, so, and so no one, no one can, can take Adam's place and keep that covenant.
Because if Adam would have kept that covenant, he would have lived. And also his posterity, because Christ has kept that covenant. He's the only one that could keep it. Why? Because he was born of woman and not man.
The seed of the woman will come and bruise the head of the serpent. And so all of that, even if you could keep God's law, you still couldn't earn eternal life because you have an earthly father. Only one person is able to keep the Adamic covenant and Paul says, and he, he's the one that brings the grace.
And he does not nullify the grace of God, Jesus Christ. Because if righteousness, if being made right with God, we're through any other way through the law, you've been able to be obedient. Then Christ died for no purpose, which Jesus says to himself,.
I am the way, the truth and life. And nobody can come to the father except by me. He's the one that in his active and passive obedience that made it possible. Amen.
You know? Yeah. I, I would just say what Jeff just articulated. There is the superiority of reformed Baptist 1689 federalism, whatever you want to call it, being a reformed Baptist over dispensationalism and over Presbyterianism.
And there was something I said, there was something I said the other day on our text message group, which is Presbyterian see the unity of scripture, but lack and fail to see the redemptive historical process that that came about.
And the dispute sees the progressive history of it without seeing the unity between both the old and the new Testament. And so the reformed Baptist is both seeing the progressive revelation and the unity at the same time.
Can you pull up that graphic that you made of, of the umbilical cord and the baby pointing to the covenant of grace and showing how, showing how the, all the covenants were pointing to the substance or pointing to, to the essence, who is Christ.
It, it, it pointed, they were subservient to the covenant of grace, always pointing to the covenant grace. That was such a good graphic. Can, can I do that? Jeff, we both have a hand in this. Look at that.
You don't even, you don't even have to read this. You can just look at the graphic.
The image is beautiful. Yeah.
Disp is cutting the umbilical cord. The, the Disp is cutting the umbilical cord and saying, you see, there's two distinct things going on here. And the Presbyterians just saying, you see, this is all the child.
Yeah. Or there is no baby.
It's just all umbilical cord. I'm telling you that is, that is classic right there. That's, if you ain't Baptist covenant theology, I don't know what you're doing with your life. I just, I just don't know.
Somebody just said expand. So I'm doing the classic. Okay. Yeah. Expand. It's a little blurry on my end.
Hopefully y 'all can see it. Yeah. Every covenant. If you want a copy of this picture, we'll send it to you. Just messages. Every covenant. There were conditions on the blessings that God promised. That's not grace.
None of that is grace. If there are conditions, it's not grace. If you have to do something, that's law,.
Not gospel. Yeah. Look, grace. Look, we're looking at the justified stands. The justified is made. I'm trying to think of a good way to say this. This is something I was really thinking on earlier guys.
I apologize. It's going to bring tears in my eyes when I was thinking about it. The justified receive unmerited favor because one man received an unmerited curse. That'll preach.
You know, a lot of shirts on this show. We do that.
That one's the shirt worthy. The justified stand up with unmerited righteousness because of me. Take this off screen. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah. Good stuff.
All right. We got one more. We hold to the means of grace, the ordinary means of grace. All right. How does God get us from A to B? How does, how does he transform us? Right. Broken image bearers to being conformed to the image of his dear son, Jesus Christ.
Right. Because like, once you become a Christian, you are positionally righteous before God. Right. We got MacArthur on here. Just time out. Huh? Orthodox MacArthur. It's MacArthur with a beard.
Oh, oh, all right. All right. Now, I just need the cigar. See, it's if MacArthur had an alternate account and he wants to be a truly a reformed Baptist. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
No, for real. So concerning the means of grace, how does God get us from being broken image bearers? Images of Adam, right. Adam, Adam is, is a broken image of God. How do we get from that to being conformed to the image of his son?
Right. Romans chapter eight, beginning in verse 29 to 31. Right. Uh, he, uh, those whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son. Hmm. Right. So if we were already perfect image bearers of God, we would not be being conformed to the image of his son.
We are broken image bearers of God. Needing to be conformed. So how does God take us from A to B? And we would argue that it's through the ordinary means of grace. Tom, would you like to, uh, expand on this?
Or I can't, I can keep talking. I don't mind, you know, I can do this all day. So the ordinary means of grace, we would say number one is through the preaching of the gospel, through, through the preaching of the gospel, giving, giving a person through regeneration, wherever you want to go, you're going somewhere else with it.
I mean, so for the most part, you know, when someone receives the gospel, that is the ordinary means of grace, but that is through the preaching of the gospel. Right. But how does God like once a person is justified, how does he sink?
What's God's program for sanctification? Right. And so we, and so we would say these things take place within a church context. Now, now you can read the Bible on your own and you can pray on your own and so on and so forth.
But we would see the ordinary means of grace as being under the preached word. So you're underneath someone opening the Bible and expanding the scriptures, teaching you the scriptures, and then those who are baptized.
So being baptized is a means of grace. This is something that God is using to conform you to his image. And those who, who are in Christ have been justified. They're, they're a part of a local church.
They have been baptized. Now they partake in the Lord's supper and they are partaking in fellowship. They're partaking in the prayer. So everything that you experienced on the Lord's day, which I would argue that the Lord's day should have the Lord's supper every Lord's day, because that is a means of grace by which God is growing you in holiness.
Right. And so being under the preached word, those that are baptized, those that are baptized partaking in the Lord's supper, the fellowship of the saints, God is using these things to take you from A to B, from a broken image bearer to being conformed to the image of Christ.
So I would even say that that starts with scripture. It starts with scripture that we know that all scripture is written by the inspiration of God. It's profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
It is our very means to how we, how can, how do we know how to live a holy life apart from the scriptures? Well, we can't. So it's based always on God's word. So what does God's word say about going to church?
What does God's word say about a fellowship of saints? What does God's word say about baptism? What does God say about the, the, the Lord's table and all those things are the very means of grace, but how he conforms us into his very image.
Tom, let me ask you this.
Yeah. You went to a marriage conference just the other day, right? Yeah. Was that gentleman married or has been married? Yes. How many years do you remember that he said that he'd been married for? Well, golly.
I don't know. It was over 50, but he's been in ministry with his wife. Yeah. Over 50.
So 50 years. Would you take the counsel or the teachings or the lessons of a married man that said, I haven't seen my wife in 25 years. I don't sleep in the same bed with her. I don't hang out with her.
I don't, I don't go on dates with her. I don't give her any time. I've hardly even talked to her. Would we, would we give any, no, any heedance to somebody's counsel from that kind of a marriage? No. Why are Christians out there saying, I'm such a good Christian.
I don't go to church. I don't sit under the preach word. I don't submit myself to the leaders. I, I don't partake in the Lord's table. I've never been baptized. I, I just got my Bible and I pray. Well, you're no better than the husband that hasn't seen his wife for 25 years.
It says,.
I send her a text every once in a while. Are you actually talking about experiential Christianity, experiential living, but through the, through the, through the pits and valleys of sanctification, the, the peaks and the valleys, you know, all the way as God grows us, even through trials and tribulations, you know, through, through affliction, God grows us and all these things.
And all the meanwhile, because we're Christians, we don't respond. We don't respond like the world, but we respond in a way that's pleasing to Christ. Well, how do we know that it's through the scriptures?
It's through his word. It's through God's word that he can transform us by the renewing of our mind. We put on Christ and that's hard.
So let's, let's address this question right here. Well, it's not really a question. It seems like it's a statement to what we're saying. So we are new create creations in Christ, or some translations will say new creature.
Not now, how does that go with what we're saying concerning the means of grace? God taken us from a to B right now. Remember when I first mentioned this, I said that once we are justified. And so we are justified by faith alone in Christ alone.
Romans chapter five, verse one, therefore, having been justified by faith, he's pulling this argument from Abraham and chapter four. Abraham was justified, made right before God by faith in the sea that was coming from him, which is Christ.
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. At that moment, you are positionally righteous before God. At that moment, we are. God sees us as new creations.
However, we do live in a thing and center reality, right? So when whenever God sees me, God sees the finished work of Jesus Christ. When I see me, you remember that mirror I was talking about that, that, that, that, that first use of the law.
When I look into the law, the mirror of the law, I see a center. Right. Right. And, and the Bible says that in our sanctification, God has taken us from A to B. He is conforming us into the image of his son.
And I would argue that that, that, that being conformed, that's not truly realized until the resurrection of the day. Yes, that's right. And so there is a progression of our being of, of, of shedding all that old man.
God sees it immediately. So as we're justified, like if, if you died right then, the moment you were justified, you, God will sanctify you a hundred percent. However,.
Putting off the old man and putting on Christ, putting old man, putting on Christ.
Yeah. Yeah. And we, yeah. And so, and so there's a, you know, we have to understand that statements are made and those statements are true. However, that, that cannot contradict what, what else is scripture saying?
So you have to harmonize the scriptures, right? Of course, the moment you are justified, you're a new creature in Christ. However, in sanctification, God is taking you from being a broken image bearer to being conformed to the image of his son.
And that image of his son is not fully realized until the day of our resurrection. When we will, when we will be like he is meaning not that we're going to be God, but that we will have a new body. That's prepared to be in the presence of God for all eternity.
Right. Can I,.
Can I touch on, on Romans 12? And this is really talking about the process of, of sanctification in Romans 12, when it says, therefore, I exhort you brothers by the mercies of God. Now he's saying, therefore, based on everything that he taught in Romans up until this point, by the mercies of God to present your bodies, a sacrifice, living, holy and pleasing to God, which is your spiritual service of worship and do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind so that you may approve what the will of God is.
So that, that which is good and pleasing to God and perfect for through the grace given to me, that's it through the grace given to me. I say to each one of you among you to not think more highly of yourself that you ought to think.
And he goes on to the things that we're going to put off. We're no longer living like the old man, but we're putting on Christ. And it's all about living by faith, continually living by faith and putting on, putting off and putting on mortification and dedication.
Oh, wretched man that I am who will deliver me from this body of death. Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ, our Lord. So then I, myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh, I serve the law of sin.
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
So that verse kind of touched on both, the both end, right? Like it mentioned that there's a conforming coming on. However, right now we are,.
We're good. Look, I think, I think it was Paul Washer that I listened to a message. This was a while ago. And I really loved it. I'd never known this, but he was, he was articulating that in those days, one of the forms of capital punishment, if you had murdered someone and they knew you were the one that murdered them, they would take the, the deceit and body and they would strap it to your back.
And so that didn't multitude multiple things. It made it. So when you walk down the street with this dead body on your back, with cords, binding it to a, you, no one would serve you any food. No one would serve you anything because they saw the body of death on you.
So you got treated differently because of it. And then not only that, but over time, that body would decay.
And guess what it would do. It would decay. And it would kill you.
And so it was a form of capital punishment. And so Paul is, they're alluding to that with saying that my flesh is like something that's decaying on my back, Lord, take it away from me. So even Paul is struggling with this, this war between the flesh.
Yup. Yeah. Yeah. It looks like we got a Fred here, Fred. So I'm just kind of noticing you're saying that you are a mid X.
Dispensationalist. Does he say a mid X or a mild dispute? Oh, okay.
I'm sorry. Sorry. I was about to boy, I was about to lay in on you, bro.
I believe that we are in the dispensation of grace. So, so are you saying that there wasn't ever any grace in the old covenant. In the old Testament is Fred. Yeah, Fred, we would,.
They said no. Yeah, Fred, we would definitely disagree with, with any, any form of dispensationalist. I mean, we want to do some in a brotherly manner since you're not a mid X. I mean, I was about to break out the, you know what I'm saying?
Not a S T S. I'm talking about, you know, chopping block, but you know, I'll back off.
I digress. I would just say to Fred, we, we, I personally, I don't know where these two brothers land quite yet on this. Romans 11, 26 is a favorite verse of mine. And I disagree heavily with those that believe that that means an ethnic.
You can't believe in covenant theology and be a dispensationalist. Get your mind right. No,.
Fred, you don't. Oh, we'll talk on that topic. We should do a Romans 11, a show one day and just break down Romans 11, because there's a lot there that I think would be good.
Can we wait till I get through? John 15. Cause John 15.
I don't want to, you know, cause I got people in my, just tell your members to stop watching. Just say, don't watch it.
That's not going to work. Sam, don't listen. I'm telling you, Melissa Owens is going to be by the time this is already coming at theology.
It's my go that she is going to be Baptist covenant theology. Melissa, you need to come to our conference. Yes, she does. Yeah. We will buy you a cigar.
I take that back. Tom will buy you a cigar. So here's the thing. I believe I'm owed a couple of. Yes, you are. Listen,.
Jeff and I, I can't find a $20 cigar. Maybe now I can get you. I can get you a $10 cigar right now, but I'm smoking a $10 cigar. Okay.
$2 cigar in Idaho. They've only got $20 cigars here in Idaho. That's crap. I like that.
They Jennifer law. She has law in her name. We should change your name to covenant of grace. Jennifer. Yeah. Jennifer grace. Your new name is grace. Your new name is great. We all believe in the existence of all the covenants and throughout the scriptures, or it's what we believe that they pointed to.
That's the difference. How they relate to one another.
There's a lot of things. One of the, so I'm listening from Robert. What's his name? Gosh, dang it. Robert Martin right now, I think is his name on the, the he's giving lectures in our seminary in my seminary right now on the topic of covenants.
And it's remarkable the, the amount of definitions that are out there for covenants in general. And so that's actually been something I've been appreciating is the fact that there is hundreds of covenant definitions that all disagree with one another.
This is where, this is where having a creed and a confession is really helpful because then you can say, this is what I believe on the covenants. Right. Yeah. And what historically,.
What was taught, what, what did, what did Cox say? What did, what did, what did Olin believe? Olin being in Presbyterians for, for some reason, I believed in, in 1689 federalism. That's right. Yeah. He was, he was a reformed Baptist,.
Just not practicing. Yeah. We'll claim him though. Yeah, no, he was most definitely. Yeah. Just gotta go read his commentary on Hebrews eight and you'll see it. Yeah. Yeah.
All right. Now, do you want to, uh, or do you want to talk about what you mentioned earlier? Speaking of, uh, uh,.
Sensationalism. Oh, Oh, because you mentioned it just close enough right now. We're working out some sensationism stuff, but the cessationist part is just what the confession already says. And that, that is the Bible is sufficient and certain and infallible, and that there's no more revealed scripture today.
And so we believe in a apostolic cessation of gifts in those, those things. So there's a big, there's a big rift right now in, in the reformed circles, maybe not just reform, but, uh, in Christianity that we've been saying between cessationism, the type of cessationist that the 1600s and the 1500 theologians had versus the cessationist that we see today.
I also want to say this. So, so a lot of people know that a Ryan didn't has come out with some arguments against G3, but these brothers right here can tell you that, that I've never held to a, a staunch, uh, view of sensationism.
Right. I'll be calling hyper cessationism. Yeah.
Yeah. I've never ever held to that view. Uh, and so like, like me and Brayden has had some fights over, over this art, uh, over this issue. And so I've never, you know, like when I made the sensationist movie and they felt, and they showed it, they viewed it at the G3 conference.
And the guy that made the movie was at my booth. I had a booth there for my Bibles. And I told him straight up that, uh, you know, like I'm a sensationist. I would call at that time, I was calling myself a biblical sensationist.
However, what he was promoting, I just could not get behind.
Right. So dispensation of grace. So let's, let's define number one with a dispensation. It's how God dispenses grace. In other words, another word might be for that, for dispensation is how God administers grace.
And so if you're looking at a strict term, if you're, if you're defining it as a time that yes, that because Christ has come, we are under a dispensation of grace because Christ has died on the cross because of the person and work of Christ.
Yes, we are under a dispensation of grace. And, but the old covenants pointed to this quote unquote dispensation of grace by the person and work of Christ alone on the cross. We just call it the new covenant.
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So I hope that makes sense.
Yep. But to say that there's a dispensation, meaning that there's something, uh, like God is interacting with his people in different dispensations. Yeah, I would argue that Christianity isn't true then, because I would say that in order for Christianity to be true, it has to be rooted in Abraham.
The same way that Abraham is saved is the same way that we are saved through the seed of Abraham. Abraham believed that a seed was going to come from his, from him, and that the seed would keep the covenant.
And by doing so, he would inherit the land and bless the nations. That's Jesus Christ. We're looking back at that same seed that came, kept the covenant, inherited the land,.
And blesses the nations. Whereas old covenant believers believe pointing, they believe on credit. We believe on what? Debit. Debit.
It's all, if anyone, everyone has ever been saved, it is through Jesus Christ. He is the only way to God. There is no other way to God outside of Jesus Christ. That's where the old covenant and the new covenant.
God has not worked.
God has not worked in different ways in different times. Absolutely not. God has revealed himself in different means to demonstrate the one means of salvation, which is exactly what Galatians is doing.
Let me, let me read a verse real fast. It says this in verse seven and nine of chapter three of Galatians. It says this, know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And earlier in the show, I pointed out this is refuting Judaizers who were ethnically Jew.
So by inference, guess what Paul's saying? They are not sons of Abraham because they don't have faith in the finished work of Christ. It says, so let me read that again. Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.
And the scripture foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preach the gospel, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham saying in you, all the nations shall be blessed. So then those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
So you and I today are equally blessed along with Abraham because he was a man of faith. And we are made children of Abraham through faith in the same Christ that he was saved through the exact same gospel that was preached beforehand to him.
It's always been one means,.
Always been one. A true Jew, a true Jew is one who is one inwardly by faith in Christ alone. That is the substance. That's a Jew. A Jewish person today is not a people of God. If they are not in Christ,.
If they are not that first, John says they're anti Christ. If you do not have the son, you do not have the father.
That's right. So in order for any Jew today, any ethnic Jew, if you could find one to come to be a person of God, to be a child of God, he has to place his trust in the personal work of Christ alone. Otherwise he's, he's outside of the camp.
He's not a part of the covenant of grace. And there is no rapture.
I mean, like what? No seven, no, no pre tribulation or seven year secret rapture like that. That's right. Yeah. When Jesus comes, he's going to put all of his enemies under his feet. And the last enemy is death.
And when Jesus comes back, he's going to judge the earth, raise the dead and make all things. And there's no gap. There's no,.
No things. And if y 'all want to eventually do something on that gap theory, I know we did something early, early, early on when it came to this, but we can definitely do something again. Yeah.
Right. So again, the, the covenants were pointing to the covenant of grace. It was pointing to those who are in Christ. Everybody, everybody. That's a person of God is, is, is, is by the covenant of grace by the person work of Christ based on grace alone.
It's grace alone.
And I would say all righteousness is talking about law keeping. He came to fulfill all law keeping. That's talking about his active obedience. He lived a life. We could not live as the last Adam and procured to eternal life for all those that believe in him.
It's one 30, one 33 is how long I've been going. One hour. Hey, hey, would you want me to pull this thing? I see something on the screen. You want me to pull it up? It's all good. Nope.
Hey guys, real quick, real quick before we go, because we've got to go. Yeah. Conference. But then anybody pull up, post your stuff that you want us to do the show on. I mean, do you want us to talk about eschatology?
Do you want us to talk a little bit more about the immigration? You want us to talk about Israel being saved in the end? You know, is that, you know, how does, how does that happen? I think Brayden is excited to hear.
So post your comments on what the show, what you guys want to hear us talk about. And we will gladly interact with you guys as, as we do. Always. You guys are, we love having you guys on. It's a, it's a special thing that we have.
So please post what you,.
What do you, what do you guys want on the, on the show to come? Shows to come. While you're posting those things. Yeah. Remember open air theology conference, 2025 war conference on sanctification. How can we wage war with our flesh?
How can we try to fight that body of, of death on our back? Like what Paul's arguing about there. So I, I hope that it'll give us some really good practical advice for us Christians. And so you should definitely come to that, go to open air theology conference.
Dot.
Open air theology. Listen, open air theology conference. Dot. Or open air theology conference.
Dot. Or buy your tickets, invite people to the conference.
Let's make this, you guys hang out with us. Come fellowship with us. Listen, we're not like these, these one conferences where you can't hang out with the speakers. Listen, buy me a meal. Okay. I appreciate it.
I don't know if y 'all know this, but my favorite food is free. Okay. Okay.
Come hang out with us. So buy a ticket and buy, buy Jeff lunch. There's one speaking.
There's one speaking and, and, and, and he'll be Andrew Rappaport is speaking. So, but you'll be reformed Baptist by that time.
So you can help us reform him. So yeah, he's coming. He's coming.
But you guys seriously, I mean, you're not going to find a better fellowship. You're not going to have more fun at a conference, any other conference. And I go to, I guarantee it. Listen, listen,.
Listen, if not listen, if you're not going to lie, but if you come to this conference and you say it sucked, I'll give you your money back. Okay. I'm serious. Fantastic. It is a wonderful time. You will have a blast, especially, especially if you come to the hangouts.
Yeah. And you're going to, we're also going to teach both these guys how to say, especially not. I'm from the streets. I can't even say my, my, my co elders name. I can't say. You can't. No, go ahead and say it.
I'm not going to do it. Yeah. Kyle. Yes. We're going to be. Oh, you tried hard right there. Do it again.
That's a cow. I'll be practicing. There's a lot of words. I can't say. I grew up in. Michelle. I hope you're, you're coming. Patty, Melissa. What's that? George. Also the final qualification for a reformed Baptist is that you have to attend.
A open air. You don't have an open air theology conference. You're not reformed. Take it off your name. Take it off. Facebook for all. Matter of fact, you're a mid X.
Dismissationalist. If you don't go. Our Scott Clark can't even be reformed. If he doesn't come to this conference. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. We're Calvinist. Yeah, we are. Absolutely. Confessional Calvinism.
Confessional Calvinist. Yeah. There's no other. There's no, no such thing. You're not really a Calvinist. Unless you're a confessional Calvinist. That's a fact. What are you, Fred? Are you, are you Calvinist?
Come on now. Yes, we are Calvinist. Is there more? Oh, hold on. Never heard of it. You need to go in your conference. We'll be. Oh, Fred, come on. We can talk about that too. We'll be glad to. I got to get off.
Yeah. Huh? Yeah. I got to get off this podcast. I'm sorry. I love you guys, but I got to get off. Okay. All right. Last words, Brayden. Chief Hunter, man, glorify God and enjoy him forever. It's been a blessing to chat with these things.
Take reform Baptist off your Facebook. If you're a dispensationalist, and if you don't hold the covenant theology,.
Or you're not confessional, or you're not a Calvinist, stop it. Yeah. If you don't make these qualifications, if you don't have a beard and smoke cigars, and that's we women. Listen.
I've been, I've been really contemplating the whole, no true Scotsman fallacy. And there has to be a definition of a Scotsman before you start saying what a true Scotsman is. It would be a true Scotsman fallacy.
If we said you, you have to be a reformed Baptist to attend, or you, you, you, you, in order to be a reformed Baptist, you have to attend a conference next year. That would be a no true Scotsman fallacy because we have a definition of what a true Scotsman is, what it is, which we're saying the definition of a reformed Baptist is, is what is historically shown as Catholic credo, confessional, covenantal cessationist, and everything else that we talked about,.
Cradle, so on and so forth. And, and, and Braden, my last word, the Braden is going to try and grow to grow. I'll have a beard by then. Don't worry, red. It'll be small, but it'll be there. You know, we as Christians, we're commanded to go out and be his witnesses.
We're commanded to go out and share the gospel. You guys have the gospel on your lips, you know, look for someone to share the gospel with. This is how the kingdom grows and we're commanded to do it. Point them to your church, point them to Christ.
You know, tell them to repent of their sins and, and follow Christ. Wear the gospel on your lips.
Say the words. If you do like our opening song, we're dropping it as a single. We wasn't going to, but we're going to drop it as a single.
There's more to it. So, so what you hear in the very opening, there's more to that song, right? So she's been doing it every single podcast. It drops the 22nd. And if you're ever in Tallahoma,.
Come hang out with your boy. Other than that, I think you ought to end with the song real quick. Just, you know, so we'll end with that. But other than that, hallelujah. Hold on. Hallelujah. All of that.
Let's see if it works this time. Let's see. I'm having so much around me.
Among misfits, a misfit in the trailer park at night, a misprint with the six. It's been sick ever since my brother died of an OD. It's never made sense. Either to me or anyone else's side of the sheet.
My ninth hit on my right side. Why are you staring at the dotted line? Tell me what's the bottom line. The bottom line is. I'm not left, but this elephant won't fight. There's nothing left, but the spots in the deep end.
And I can't find my assigned seat to sit in. My theology don't fit in. Black sheep of the Reformation. Sheep pen. I'm just another Baptist. Baptized again. The bastard child of Anabaptist. Post the child of Reformation.
Give me a Bible in a bookshelf of dead men. Cigars, bourbons, and beer cans.
Still going. Ties, tattoos, and bearded men. Spray what you want. Round me, round me. Now that Tom is gone. Yeah, now that Tom is gone. Tom is right here. No, he's right here. What are you talking about?
Oh, it's playing again. All right. Hallelujah. Hallelujah.