The Fall of Adam and Its Consequences

Alpha & Omega Ministries iconAlpha & Omega Ministries

11 views

James White vs Gilbert Scharffs James White debates Mormon apologist Gilbert Scharffs on the meaning of sin. This debate is an excellent example of the major divide that exists between Mormons and Christians on the depravity of man. Dr. Scharffs is the retired director of the LDS Institute of Religion at the University of Utah. He has a PhD from BYU where he taught for a time as well. He is the author of the book 'The Truth About the Godmakers.'

Comments are disabled.

00:00
If you would like some resources, including some free books by Dr. White, if you will read them, they are our free gift to you.
00:10
This is a debate this evening. We ask that you show respect to both parties.
00:17
Both men are very capable, very distinguished representatives of their respective sides.
00:24
I ask that you refrain from any laughter or any other signs of emotion in terms of outburst or anything like that until the end when we can applaud both speakers.
00:36
They are both appearing at no cost. So we ask that you show them respect.
00:43
There is going to be a time for questions because of the logistics involved and also to have as many questions as possible.
00:51
This time we are going to have you fill out a slip. If you have a piece of paper, you can go ahead and be working on that.
00:56
We have paper provided at each end of the stage. We are going to have opening statements of 15 minutes each by both spokesmen.
01:04
That is going to be followed by a time of response of 10 minutes each. Then we are going to take a break for about 10 minutes.
01:12
There are soda machines in the hallway, also bathrooms and whatever else.
01:19
We are going to reconvene after 10 minutes. We are going to have questions between the spokesmen and then closing statements followed by the questions.
01:28
I am going to pick through them and try to be as fair as possible and pick representative questions for each spokesman.
01:36
The men that we have with us tonight, as I said, are very distinguished spokesmen. We have first on my left, to your right,
01:44
Dr. Gilbert Scharffs. Dr. Scharffs is the retired director of the
01:49
LDS Institute of Religion at the University of Utah. He has a Ph .D. from Brigham Young University where he also taught for a time.
01:57
He is the author of the book, The Truth About the Godmakers, a response to the work of Ed Decker, I believe, both in the book and in the film.
02:07
On my right we have Dr. James White. He is the director of Alpha and Omega Ministries. It is an apologetics ministry out of Phoenix, Arizona.
02:17
He is a ruling elder in the Reformed Baptist Church, a group very similar to our own.
02:26
The ministry is wide ranging. He has written a number of books.
02:33
Some of the representative titles include Letters to a Mormon Elder, The Roman Catholic Controversy, Mary, Another Redemptrix, The Potter's Freedom, and The God Who Justifies.
02:44
Dr. White also teaches at Grand Canyon, is it college or university? Golden Gate Seminary.
02:53
My apologies. As I said, there will be a time for questions. Please hold your questions until the break and then you can turn them in to me and I will sort through them.
03:05
There will also be a time after the debate to ask some more, but we have to clear out of here pretty much on schedule.
03:12
We are being charged by the hour. We appreciate your patience and appreciate you being here this evening.
03:19
The question that we have before us this evening is what is sin? The fall of Adam and its consequences.
03:25
We're going to begin with Dr. Gilbert Scharf's representation of the LDS position.
03:39
I'm pleased to learn that Dr. White and I have something in common. We're both elders in our church, but that may be where the similarities end.
03:53
Maybe not. But he has another advantage. He has a better microphone.
04:04
This is like the serpent in the
04:14
Garden of Eden. Don't start my 15 minutes yet.
04:29
I'm resetting it.
04:41
What did you do to it? If it'll fit in that,
04:48
I don't think we can. You need to be relatively close to that mic for it to pick you up.
05:06
Dr. White has another advantage. With his bright tie, you're less likely to sleep through his presentation.
05:16
I'm a substitute. The original person backed out. I felt like doing that many times.
05:26
I had never met Dr. White before. Then I started listening to the tapes of the last two debates.
05:34
You're in for a real treat. He is perhaps the most articulate person I've ever heard with his knowledge of the scriptures and in vocalizing his point of view.
05:50
I have another disadvantage. I've only debated once before in my life.
05:56
It was in a graduate philosophy class at the University of Utah, and I was debating the head of the
06:02
Atheist Society of Utah. I need to warn you,
06:09
Elder White, that I think I won that debate. The reason being
06:17
I had so much material and the class was only an hour and a half long. I just couldn't stop.
06:26
There was only five minutes left for this gentleman. So I declared myself a winner.
06:35
But they wanted to continue the debate the following week, but I wasn't invited.
06:43
So I don't know who really won. To begin with,
06:55
I'd like to read a fragment that has recently been found that adds some new light into the book of Genesis.
07:05
I know it's authentic because it came across on the Internet. So God asked
07:16
Adam, what is wrong with you? Adam said he didn't have anyone to talk to. God said that he was going to make
07:24
Adam a companion and that it would be a woman. God said this person will gather food for you, and when you discover clothing, she'll wash it for you.
07:36
She will always agree with every decision you make. She will bear your children and never ask you to get up in the middle of the night.
07:43
To take care of them, she will not nag you and will always be the first to admit she was wrong when you've had a disagreement.
07:52
She will never have a headache and feel freely to give you love and passion whenever you need it.
08:00
Adam asked God, what will a woman like this cost? And God said, an arm and a leg.
08:10
And Adam said, what could I get for a rib? And the rest is history.
08:20
I've asked myself why I agreed to do this, and Jason Wallace was very persuasive.
08:30
He kept calling me again and again, and someone from the
08:35
Institute of Religion recommended me because he wanted to get out of it.
08:45
But I think the main reason why I agreed to do this is because I truly and sincerely believe we have a great point of view, a great message on this particular point that is very satisfying and it answers so many of life's most basic questions.
09:05
Where we came from, why we're here, and where we're going. Jason said this wouldn't be a normal debate.
09:19
He said, you won't be bashing each other. It's just an opportunity to present two different views.
09:27
And so because of that, I thought maybe I could muddle my way through.
09:38
I'm sure I won't convince him or anyone else who believes like he does and vice versa.
09:44
But I think if we shed light on each other's positions, this will create a greater feeling of brotherly love and tolerance and goodwill and love for each other in this community, which
10:01
I think is the overriding thing that we should be striving for. This really can't be a debate because we both come from different backgrounds.
10:14
We use different resources. Although we firmly believe the
10:22
Bible and it's our basic book and when we publish our scriptures, it's always first.
10:29
Two out of our four years of study in seminary and in our gospel doctrine classes are from the
10:39
Bible. But we do have the Book of Mormon, and so some of the insights we have come from that book, which of course others do not accept.
10:52
I'm going to try and confine most of my reasons for the way we believe by using biblical scriptures.
11:03
Nevertheless, I want to point out some of the differences that we have that originate from the words of our prophets and our other scriptures besides the
11:16
Book of Mormon. Most mainstream
11:23
Christians believe that God created man and the earth out of nothing.
11:31
It's a concept ex nihilo. And so that makes a lot of difference in how you view the fall.
11:41
We believe that all of us existed in a pre -mortal condition in the presence of our
11:47
Father in heaven as his spirit children. And we reached a point where it was no longer in this sanitized, safe, being with our parents environment.
12:02
And so our Father said, it's time for you to get out. I know a place called the
12:09
University of Earth where you can go study and learn. And it's time to move on.
12:18
And so we believe the earth was created for the purpose of having a time of probation, learning, testing, so that we could grow more than we would have in the safe environment of our heavenly home.
12:40
We then came to this earth in our behalf.
12:46
Our first parents, Adam and Eve, came and, in our behalf, made a tough, difficult decision.
13:00
Two opposing choices that would have had different consequences.
13:12
One was the safe haven of the
13:18
Garden of Eden. And there they were commanded not to partake of the fruit or whatever that represented that would give them knowledge of good and evil.
13:35
Now, I'd like to turn to the book of Genesis and point out some things that I think might support our belief.
13:54
I'd like to begin with Genesis 1 .26. Not that the other part isn't important.
14:05
The different periods of creation. We Latter -day
14:11
Saints have a concept that before the earth was created physically and before man was created physically, there was a spiritual creation.
14:27
And then it was changed over to a mortal creation.
14:35
This answers a lot of questions about age of the earth, and we don't know how long this took, and the seven days or the seven periods were part of a spiritual creation.
14:47
And so it has nothing to do, I believe, with the age of rocks and so forth.
14:54
But here, as part of this spiritual creation, which is basically Genesis 1 and a few verses into Genesis 2,
15:04
God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing.
15:25
God created man in the image, his own image.
15:31
In the image of God created he him. Male and female created he them.
15:37
And God blessed them, and he said to them to be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth.
15:45
We believe that was the first commandment that he gave, and since it was given in a spiritual setting, we feel it pertained to the eternities, because our spirit is indestructible.
15:57
We believe it has always existed and will always exist. And so we believe that was a very important commandment.
16:06
Now if we look at Genesis chapter 2, the seventh day
16:14
God rested, so that spiritual creation had taken place. Verse 5,
16:21
And every plant of the field, before it was on the earth, the physical earth, before it grew, for the
16:29
Lord had not yet caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground, but there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
16:41
And the Lord formed the man out of the dust of the earth. Now we have the physical creation.
16:52
And he planted a garden for them eastward in Eden, where everything was apparently very nice and calm and no problems and no work required.
17:06
And there he gave the commandment not to fortake the forbidden fruit, not to obtain the knowledge of good and evil.
17:19
Now the consequences of that we know because they broke that commandment.
17:26
And we have this earth with all of its problems and wickedness and evil.
17:35
To force that upon your children, to force it upon them, was not
17:45
God's way of doing it. He wanted to assure us of our free will.
17:51
And what better way of introducing that concept than putting them in a condition where they chose mortality or not.
18:03
So we believe that the fall was a bad thing.
18:10
You can't refer to it as the fortunate fall, as some people like to do.
18:20
It was a terrible situation, as we all know and as we look around us.
18:30
Now, I'd like to quote from the
18:36
Book of Mormon, which I think makes it very clear. I think even more so than the
18:45
Bible, as to what the terrible consequences were of this situation.
18:52
And now it came to pass. And then shall the wicked be cast out.
18:58
This is Mosiah 16, verse 1 through 3.
19:06
I'm actually going to begin with verse 2. And then shall the wicked be cast out, and they shall have cause to howl and weep and wail and gnash their teeth.
19:16
And this is because they would not hearken unto the voice of the Lord. Therefore the Lord redeemeth them not, for they are carnal and devilish, and the devil has power over them.
19:29
Yea, even that old serpent that did beguile our first parents, which was the cause of their fall, which was the cause of all mankind becoming carnal, devilish.
19:44
Alma 42, 7. And now ye see by this that our first parents were cut off both temporally and spiritually from the presence of the
19:53
Lord. And thus we see they became subjects to follow after their own will.
19:59
Now behold, it is not expedient that man should be reclaimed from this temporal death, for that would destroy the great plan of the
20:09
Lord. Well, there are many scriptures that make it very clear what the terrible consequences were.
20:23
The natural man is an enemy of God. Mosiah 3, 19. Carnal, devilish, and sensual.
20:32
And will be forever until he hearkens to the enticings of the
20:37
Holy Spirit. My time is up. I turn it over to my worthy opponent.
20:50
We'll now have opening statements from Dr. White. It is indeed good to be with you.
21:06
I would just like to point out very hurriedly that I was the one that pointed out to Dr. Sharves that I had the brighter tie.
21:15
That is a common ploy of mine. Some people say it does help them to stay awake. Other people say it makes them ill.
21:25
My thesis is if you're going to wrap a piece of cloth around your neck and obstruct your airways, it might as well be pretty.
21:32
It is good to be with you this evening. And I'm very thankful for the opportunity of having this kind of discussion because it's extremely important.
21:41
We all believe that the fall of Adam has impacted each one of us. And therefore, the subject this evening touches each one of us.
21:50
Each one of us recognizes that there is sin in this world. There is evil in this world. And God's way of dealing with that evil is extremely important.
21:59
In the Book of Mormon, in 2 Nephi chapter 2, beginning of verse 23, we read,
22:06
And they would have had no children, wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery, doing no good, for they knew no sin.
22:17
But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things. Adam fell, then men might be, and men are, that they might have joy.
22:27
Now, this is one of the most famous passages in the Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 225. Adam fell, then men might be, and men are, that they might have joy.
22:38
It is difficult to avoid the conclusion that in at least some fashion, the concept of Adam's fall, and I've heard described as an upward fall by some, there's much discussion of Adam having two commandments, and he breaks the lesser of those.
22:54
In fact, there was this premortal discussion and decision that this is exactly what he would do. And of course, it's difficult to avoid the understanding, given the words, that in some way, shape, or form, the fall of Adam results in some ability to have joy that would not have been there before.
23:13
This kind of an assertion then results in what we have, for example, in passages such as Moroni chapter 10, verse 32.
23:23
Moroni 10, 32. Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness.
23:29
And if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind, and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ.
23:42
And if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in no wise deny the power of God. Now, the entire concept of grace is deeply impacted by how we understand the necessity thereof.
23:55
If the fall of Adam was something that was in some way, shape, or form an upward fall, if it does not result in the spiritual death of man, the depravity of man, then grace, by nature, will take on a different form than it does if we believe that man is totally depraved.
24:15
Now, if we look at the definition of grace, and it's interesting, I will be interested in seeing if this is a definition that Dr.
24:24
Scharf would accept, but it is from the LDS Bible Dictionary, page 697, for those of you who are carrying your quad with you this evening.
24:32
Under the word grace, the main idea of the word is divine means of help or strength given through the bounteous mercy and love of Jesus Christ.
24:42
It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice, that mankind will be raised in immortality, every person receiving his body from the grave in a condition of everlasting life.
24:53
It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means.
25:08
This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts.
25:20
Divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the fall of Adam and also because of man's weaknesses and shortcomings.
25:27
However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient.
25:32
Hence, the explanation is by grace that we are saved after all we can do, 2
25:37
Nephi 25, 23. And there is the true issue. There is the great divide,
25:43
I would suggest this evening, is that very line that says, however, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient, hence the citation of 2
25:55
Nephi 25, 23. I would like to assert this evening that the biblical teaching, the teaching of the apostles of the
26:03
Lord Jesus Christ contained in that document known as the New Testament, is that the grace of God is never dependent upon the cooperative will of man, and it cannot be, for one simple reason.
26:17
When Jesus walked up to the grave of Lazarus, as recorded in the Gospel of John, and said,
26:24
Lazarus, come forth, the command that the Son of God issued did not depend for its efficacy and power upon the cooperation of the dead
26:35
Lazarus in the grave. How, indeed, could it? How, indeed, could the grace of God be dependent upon the addition of the will of man when the
26:46
Bible describes the condition of man, likening it, for example, in the prophets to the valley of the dry bones, where you have the scattered bones of corpses that have decayed and rotted.
27:00
You can ask for all the cooperation in the world from a valley of dry bones. You will get none.
27:06
Dry bones do not respond to even the greatest and most kind wooing.
27:12
Try it sometime. It doesn't work. Instead, there must be an exercise of divine and efficient power to bring those bones to life as true human beings.
27:24
Just as Lazarus could not cooperate being dead, the command of God to come forth from the grave had to bring with it everything that was needed, and that is the very biblical definition of grace.
27:40
It is not an enabling power. It is, instead, when we speak of the very act of salvation itself, the grace of God that accomplishes salvation is absolutely powerful and cannot fail when
27:53
God is the one who sends it forth to accomplish his will. Now, this evening we are focusing upon the nature of the fallen man, and I'd like to point out just a few of the biblical passages that bear upon this topic.
28:07
We are told in Genesis 6 -5, for example, that every thought of man was evil continually.
28:13
In Genesis 8 -21, the intentions of man's heart are evil from his youth.
28:18
The prophet Jeremiah, who had such a tremendous insight into the human nature, reminded us that the leopard cannot change his spots.
28:26
The Ethiopian cannot change his skin. Therefore, those who are accustomed to doing evil cannot do what is good.
28:33
That same prophet in Jeremiah 17 -9 warned us that the heart is deceitful.
28:39
It deceives us. It is wicked. Who can understand it or can trust it? The psalmist recognized that we were brought forth in iniquity in Psalm 51 -5 and that the wicked are estranged from the womb in Psalm 58 -3.
28:54
These prophetic utterances are brought to a much clearer focus in the New Testament where the apostle
29:00
Paul in Romans 1, 2, and 3 spends a great deal of time announcing the bad news of man's sin.
29:07
The fact that all men have sinned. That sin is the universal condition of man. And as a result, men are by nature enemies of God.
29:17
The very scriptures to which we refer this evening in Romans 3 -10 -18 give us this long litany of the result of Adam's fall.
29:26
And no one is exempted from these words. We are told that there's none righteous.
29:31
No, not one. There's none that understands. There is none that even seeks God. Now these are extremely strong words, but we need to understand them because the scriptures tell us that until we stop trusting in our self -righteousness, we are never able to hear the message of God's grace in Jesus Christ.
29:53
We are never in a position to understand what it is, why it is, that we do not do things to gain
30:01
God's merit, but instead have that empty hand of faith that grasps God's grace.
30:07
That's why the empty hand of faith is consistent with the grace of God, because there's nothing we can do.
30:13
We are helpless as the fallen children of Adam. In fact, when the Bible addresses this issue of our being in Adam in Romans 5, verses 12 and following, we discover that those who are in Adam can only receive from Adam what
30:28
Adam can give them. And what is that that Adam gives? Adam can only give us death, sin, transgression, and judgment.
30:38
You see, in Romans 5, verses 12 and following, two humanities are presented to us.
30:43
There is one humanity that is in Adam. And if you are in Adam this evening, you can only receive from him what he can give you, and he only can give you death.
30:52
There is another humanity which is in Jesus Christ. And those who are in Jesus Christ, those who by faith have been united with him, they receive from him what
31:03
Jesus Christ alone can give, and that is forgiveness, redemption, and eternal life.
31:10
There are only two humanities. And if you remain only in Adam, then you can only receive from him what
31:17
Adam can give to you. You see, the Bible tells us that the result of the fall of Adam is our total inability.
31:26
Jesus said in John 6, verse 44, that no man is able to come to him unless the
31:32
Father who sent him draws him. Romans 8 tells us that those who are in the flesh, as opposed to those who are in the
31:38
Spirit, cannot do anything that is pleasing to God. Surely repentance and faith are pleasing things in God's sight.
31:45
But Paul tells us that those who are in the flesh cannot do anything that is pleasing to God. And Jesus himself made it very clear.
31:53
Those who commit sin are the slaves of sin. Those who are slaves are not free.
32:01
The fall of Adam did not bring joy to man. Adam could know true and lasting joy before he fell, despite what 2
32:11
Nephi says. The biblical presentation of the fall of Adam is such that it brings mankind into a state of utter spiritual ruin.
32:23
A ruin from which he can only be delivered by the magnificent grace of the
32:29
Lord Jesus Christ. That is why all of salvation in Ephesians chapter 1 is said to be to the praise of his glorious grace.
32:37
That grace is never divided up. There is never any merit given or praise given to anyone else other than God and his grace.
32:48
Not just because his grace makes salvation a possibility, but because his grace actually saves.
32:57
That is the message of the New Testament. Now in the few moments that I have left,
33:03
I would like to suggest to you that one of the main reasons that we have such a wide divide in our view of the fall of Adam, the resultant destruction of spiritual life, the inabilities of man, is not just because we view the fall differently, but also because we have a very different perspective on who
33:25
God is and what his purposes are in this world. And that's already been noted by Dr. Scharf in his opening statement.
33:32
In Isaiah chapter 6, and I would like to suggest that passage to everyone's reading this evening.
33:38
I would like to encourage everyone to take time this evening to look at Isaiah chapter 6.
33:43
In Isaiah chapter 6, we have Isaiah's temple vision where he sees the
33:49
Lord sitting upon his throne. And here you have a great prophet of God, probably the holiest man in Israel.
33:59
And he sees God for who God really is. He sees the true God. He has given knowledge of who
34:07
God really, truly is. And as a result, notice his words beginning in verse 5.
34:14
Then said I, woe is me, for I am undone, because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips.
34:23
For mine eyes have seen the king, Yahweh of hosts. Then flew the seraphim unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from off the altar.
34:37
And he laid it upon my mouth and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips, and thy iniquity is taken away, and thy sin is purged.
34:45
You see, when we see God as God truly is, not as we would imagine him to be.
34:52
Remember, God rebukes all those who think that he is like unto us. He says,
34:58
I am God and not man, the Holy One in the midst of thee, in Hosea 11 .9. When we see God for who he really is, then we see ourselves for who we really are.
35:09
And that, my friends, I would like to suggest to you is a gift of grace from God's hand. What Isaiah experienced may have made him cry out, woe is me, for I am undone, but very frequently
35:19
God's gift of grace has to break us before it heals us. And that's what happened with Isaiah.
35:26
He saw the holiness of God and saw his own sin. That's what we need by the Holy Spirit's power is to be broken, to see the true
35:35
God for who he is, to see our sin for the stench that it truly is in his nostrils. And only then can we truly cry out, woe is me, and look to the
35:44
God -ordained means of redemption. That's what this discussion is about this evening.
35:50
The fall of Adam brought destruction to mankind, but the coming of Jesus Christ brought full and complete redemption for all of those who are in him.
36:01
Thank you very much. We will now have 10 -minute responses from each speaker, beginning with Dr.
36:42
Scharffs. I don't quite understand the
36:52
Lazarus example, because, obviously, if he's getting brought back to life, he's going to be very happy and not object to it.
37:03
And his life, I think, is demonstrated as having been the life of good works.
37:09
And so, I just don't see how that applies. As far as the description in the biblical concordance, the index, the dictionary, in our standard works as to the definition of grace,
37:28
I'm going to have to ponder that and see if it's something that I agree with completely.
37:34
On the surface, I think it's okay, because, you know, in a sense, what
37:46
Dr. White says is true. There are no conditions to the atonement if you're talking about resurrection.
37:56
But if you're talking about the type of resurrection, you're going to have the quality where you will be in the next life, what your rewards will be.
38:11
Yes, we do believe that we are in partnership with God and that we need to do our part.
38:18
The scripture where he talked about the person who was evil and there was no man who did good,
38:25
I think pertained to the situation at that time, because it could not pertain to today, because there are many people who are seeking
38:35
God and trying to be righteous, like Dr. White is. I wouldn't say that he is a man who is one of the evil people of the earth, and I don't think any of you would be in that category.
38:52
Adam fell that men might be, I think, is a position that is natural.
38:59
In other words, you can't win unless you have the ability to lose.
39:05
You can't experience joy unless you have a chance to know what pain and suffering is.
39:13
So I think in the long term, the blessings come with the opportunity of the opposition that is given to us in this life.
39:28
We grow from that. Now I'd like to continue and just give you the five differences pertaining to the fall as I see them.
39:43
I've already talked about the pre -mortal plan and Ecclesiastic 12 .7
39:52
says the spirit shall return to God who gave it.
39:59
And to Jeremiah the prophet said, Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee and sanctified thee.
40:08
And to Job he said, Where wast thou when I laid the foundation of the earth?
40:14
And the sons of God shouted for joy. And Paul said,
40:20
Just as we had fathers of our flesh, we also had fathers of our spirit.
40:28
I believe the Bible makes a very solid case that there is a pre -mortal existence which
40:36
I think has a great bearing on understanding the purpose of the fall. And my favorite passage in that regard is
40:44
John 9, 2, and 3 where there was this man who was born blind and the disciples came to Christ and said,
40:54
Who sinned that this man was born blind? Well, if he sinned, it must have been before he was born.
41:05
We won't discuss the meaning of the passage and the answer that the Savior gave, but I think that's a clear indication that there is a pre -mortal existence.
41:20
Satan was involved in the fall. I don't know how universally that is accepted because the
41:30
Bible just talks about a serpent and we believe that that was figurative. Revelation 12, 7, and there was a war in heaven.
41:43
That's where we believe that there was a... Satan wanted to come down to earth and be the god of the earth and he wanted to control everything and force everyone back.
41:56
And no freedom, no free agency. He wanted also the glory which was the second part of the plan that made it very bad.
42:07
And this war in heaven, Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and the dragon fought his angels and prevailed not.
42:18
Neither was their place found anymore in heaven. The great dragon was cast out.
42:23
That old serpent called the devil and his angels were cast out with him.
42:31
And then it talks about Christ coming along and being victorious with God's plan that we would be offered an opportunity of growth.
42:44
And well, that I think supports this idea of a premortal and a war in heaven.
43:00
We do not believe in original sin as many mainstream
43:06
Christians do. Yes, Adam, Eve, sin, there was a punishment for it and a horrendous effect that affects us all.
43:16
But in our article of faith we state we believe that mankind will be punished for their own sins and not for Adam's transgression.
43:27
It might be interesting to note some people like to make a distinction between sin and transgression.
43:36
I don't care to do that. I mean, I think both of them, obviously what
43:41
Adam and Eve did was more than a misdemeanor.
43:49
It was a felony at least of the most horrible kind.
43:56
But nowhere is it mentioned that it was a sin that I'm aware of in the
44:03
Bible. Paul twice calls it a transgression. But if anyone wants to call it a sin,
44:11
I think that's perfectly in order. One of the purposes of the fall was to introduce agency.
44:25
In other words, as we read, where is that passage?
44:49
Genesis 2, 16. And the Lord commanded the man saying of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat, but of the tree of knowledge and good and evil thou shalt not eat.
45:04
For in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Here, as I mentioned before, a choice was given.
45:14
And I think the Scriptures are full of examples of the agency that God gave.
45:22
In Genesis 4, 7. If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted.
45:28
If thou doest not well, sin lieth at thy door. Deuteronomy 30, 19.
45:36
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing.
45:45
Therefore choose life that both thou and thy seed may live. A choice that they should make.
45:56
Joshua 24, 15. And if it seem evil unto you to serve the
46:02
Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve. But as for me and my house, we will choose.
46:12
I'm adding that word. We will serve the Lord. And Elijah came unto the people and said,
46:19
How long halt ye between two opinions? If the Lord be God, follow him.
46:24
But if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.
46:31
And the story of Mary and Martha. She's, Martha's out in the, or Mary's, who was the one in the kitchen?
46:40
Anyway, Mary wants to bask and learn every word she can from the
46:46
Savior. And so Martha's complaining. She's not out here helping. And then the
46:53
Savior said, But one thing is needful, and Mary has chosen, chosen the good part, which shall not be taken away from her.
47:03
Hebrews 12, 9. Furthermore, we have had fathers of our flesh, which corrected us.
47:09
Should we much more give reverence and not be subjection to the spirits and live?
47:19
I do think that agency was the purpose of the fall.
47:26
That is the whole reason why it was done. So we could choose, be free.
47:37
Now, I think my time is up. I didn't set the timer. Now we will have a 10 -minute response from Dr.
47:49
White. We'll be following that with a 10 -minute break for the restrooms and refreshments. It's the tie.
48:11
Proves it's loud. I'll make sure. Just a few moments ago,
48:18
Dr. Sharf said that he did not understand the example of Lazarus. He said, I don't see how that applies.
48:24
Ephesians 2 and Colossians 2, verse 13 tell us that man is dead in sin, that that is a spiritual death.
48:34
And we are referring this evening to the result of the fall of Adam and the idea of cooperation.
48:39
In fact, the thesis that was just stated that the purpose of the fall was to bring about agency. Well, that agency would have to exist within a spiritually dead person, a person who is said to be unable to do all sorts of things, unable to choose to come to Christ, unable to do what is pleasing before God.
48:58
That is the reason that we need to understand the entirety of what the
49:03
Scripture says about the result of sin in the life of mankind.
49:09
We were told that there are no conditions to the atonement regarding the resurrection. I recognize the LDS distinction between salvation as resurrection and individual salvation as exaltation.
49:21
I do not believe that that is a Biblical distinction. I do not believe that the concept of exaltation to Godhood is
49:27
Biblical in any way, shape, or form. And so when we speak of the atonement, I would direct you to the book of Hebrews and those passages that refer to the purpose of Christ's death upon the cross.
49:36
And never will you see this type of distinction into, well, there's this effect in regards to simple resurrection, and then there's this effect for others, and so on and so forth.
49:45
No, the atonement is a substitutionary atonement where Christ bears in His body the sins of His people.
49:52
He takes their place. The wrath of God due to their sin falls upon Him in their place.
49:59
Dr. Sharris also said, we are in partnership with God. That really is part of the whole issue this evening.
50:05
The bones in the Valley of the Dry Bones, Lazarus in the grave, cannot be in partnership with God.
50:11
That is not a good partnership to enter into. God does not need to enter into partnership with dead corpses.
50:19
The Bible actually likens our being brought to spiritual life, that act of regeneration, being born again, to God taking out the stony heart and giving us a heart of flesh.
50:31
Well, what kind of a partnership is going to exist with an individual who has a stony heart?
50:37
Well, it's not going to be a partnership that's going to involve anything good or spiritual or true. So, that is the whole point this evening.
50:44
We must be born again before we can do those things that are spiritually pleasing to God.
50:51
Dr. Sharris made reference to Romans chapter 3 and said, well, that can't be in reference to today. Well, I would point out to you that it is in reference to every single age because it is fundamental to Paul's argument.
51:02
He is demonstrating that all men have sinned. Romans 3, 9. What then? Are we better than they?
51:08
No, in no wise. We have before proved, both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin, as it is written.
51:15
There is none righteous, no, not one. There is none that understands. There is none that seeketh after God, etc., etc.
51:21
Now, Dr. Sharris said, well, Dr. White is seeking after God only because God first sought after me, only because God changed my heart.
51:30
I was going the other direction. And any person who has been arrested by the hound of heaven, by the
51:37
Holy Spirit of God that breaks in upon us, knows that that is exactly the experience we all had.
51:42
We loved our sin, but then something started to change, and we no longer love that sin.
51:48
And all of a sudden we had a desire to love Christ. And how can this happen? Well, the answer is not to be found within ourselves.
51:54
It is to be found within the work of the Holy Spirit of God. And so Romans chapter 3 is most definitely about us today, and it is most definitely a truth that outside of the work of the
52:07
Holy Spirit of God, within the human heart, there is no God -seeker. Now, I know that's not popular.
52:14
I know there's an entire movement in our world today that builds churches based upon the existence of a people the
52:19
Bible says doesn't exist. The only people who are seeking after God, truly seeking after God, there's lots of people seeking after religion.
52:29
There's lots of people seeking after the benefits of God without dealing with the Holy God. Don't get me wrong. There's all sorts of people that are interested in religion.
52:36
But you see, look at Isaiah if you want to know what it means to truly seek after God. Look at the
52:42
Bible to see what it means to truly seek after God, that Holy God that exposes our sin.
52:48
The only reason any person is truly seeking after God is because God, in His mercy, has changed them.
52:56
Outside of that grace, there is no God -seeker. Now, we are told that there is a pre -mortal plan, a pre -mortal existence, and some passages were offered to us.
53:07
I'd like to suggest some counter passages that would demonstrate otherwise. For example, in Romans 9 -11, we are told about Esau and Jacob, and how before the twins were born, they had done anything good or evil.
53:19
Are we to believe that Jacob and Esau, in some pre -mortal existence, hadn't done anything?
53:25
Everything they had done was simply absolutely neutral? They had done nothing good? They had done nothing evil at all?
53:32
Well, of course not. Zechariah 12 says Jehovah creates the spirits of men within them.
53:38
Now, in Mormon theology, Jehovah is the son, and he is one of the offspring of Elohim, God the
53:45
Father, at least according to the 1912 First Presidency statement on that subject. And yet,
53:50
Zechariah 12 -1 tells us that Jehovah forms and creates the spirits of men. Jeremiah 1 -5 was cited, but when you read
53:58
Jeremiah 1 -5 in its context, when it says that I knew you, this is an example of Hebrew parallelism, where it then says, and I ordained you as a prophet.
54:06
The Hebrew term yadah is used in the term of choosing someone. It is not a proof text for proving that there was some premortal existence where Jeremiah and Jehovah knew each other.
54:18
And in John chapter 9, I think one of the things that's missing in the use of the passage to attempt to substantiate a premortal existence is the fact that the
54:25
Jews, who did not believe in a premortal existence, did believe that a baby could sin in the womb.
54:32
They believed that a baby could actually profane the Sabbath in the womb. And you'll notice
54:37
Jesus rebukes that entire idea. He says it was not this man or his parents who sinned.
54:43
He was born this way so that God might be glorified in his healing, which then
54:49
Jesus accomplishes by his divine power. And so, I think that each one of those passages that was offered does not, in fact, give us this concept of a premortal existence.
55:00
We also have the assertion of the rejection of original sin. Well, if in point of fact,
55:06
Romans chapter 5 is not presenting original sin, and if it is not presenting the idea that we fell in Adam, then
55:14
I don't know what actually it could be presenting. In fact, it was interesting as I was looking at Romans chapter 5 when
55:20
Dr. Scharfs was referring to the discussion of whether Adam transgressed or sinned, and I just noticed that the word sin is used of Adam's activity a number of times.
55:31
But you'll notice beginning at verse 10 and not only so, verse 12, I'm sorry, wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for all have sinned, for until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
55:50
Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
55:59
And so you have this assertion, sin was in the world and death reigned from Adam until Moses even before the law came along.
56:08
Why? Why did... Hello? Why...
56:16
Still got two minutes here on my... Why did people die? In fact, why do infants die?
56:23
Why is death the universal experience of man if we are not, in fact, in solidarity with Adam in his fall so that his fall becomes our fall, his sin becomes our sin, which explains universality of sin and death in our experience.
56:40
That's why there needs to be a transfer from being in Adam and receiving from him only what
56:47
Adam can give to us, that is death, to being in Christ and receiving from him what only
56:52
Jesus Christ can give us, and that is eternal life. Now, finally, Dr.
56:57
Scharfs made much reference to the existence of agency in man, and that is, of course, quite true. But we need to practice tota scriptura, that is, looking at all of Scripture.
57:09
And while there are frequent commands, in fact, the gospel, as I have said many times, is not a suggestion, it is a command.
57:17
There is frequent commands throughout Scripture. For men to do things, there is, right along with that, the open recognition that apart from God's grace, freeing them from the slavery of sin, they will continually enter into rebellion against God.
57:36
As I said, Romans chapter 8 tells us that those who are in the flesh are unwilling to submit themselves to the law of God.
57:45
They are unable to do what is pleasing to God. Incapable, unable.
57:53
We need to understand why the Bible uses terms of inability of man in his sin.
57:59
And the main reason that God has revealed this is so we might see man's inability in contrast to the great ability of the perfect Savior, Jesus Christ.
58:09
Thank you very much. We will take a break until 820.
58:19
There are restrooms and refreshments out in the hall. If you have questions to the speakers, please write them down and please make sure to note which speaker or both that you wish the question addressed to.
58:32
There's paper on the end of the stage at each end. We will start back in ten minutes.
58:42
We'll begin with Dr. Scharf's questions to Dr. White. I'm concerned about the idea of original sin.
59:00
Certainly we're all affected by the fall, but to say that we are to blame for it,
59:07
I wonder if you would respond to the Scripture in Ezekiel 18 verse 20.
59:18
And the soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son.
59:31
The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
59:40
Yes, you can stay there if you'd like, sir, because my answer will be fairly brief. Just a couple of things.
59:47
First of all, the concept of federal headship, that is of someone, the head of a family for example, representing the family, is a very biblical teaching.
59:56
We've noticed, for example, Achan, when he transgresses in the capture of Jericho, when he is punished, not only is he punished, but so is his wife, his children, and his animals.
01:00:10
And hence we would have a manifold contradiction between Ezekiel 18 and that incident, as well as Romans chapter 5, if in point of fact
01:00:19
Ezekiel 18 was stating a universal concept. It is not. Ezekiel is referring to the fact that the people of Israel are refusing to listen to his message of repentance, because they say there is no hope, there is no use, we are simply being punished for our father's sins, and they're not seeing their own sins in the process.
01:00:41
And so in that case, when you look at Ezekiel chapter 18, the entirety of it, you see he's addressing a specific instance, the concept of federal headship remains a very biblical teaching in Romans 5.
01:00:55
Your belief is that works, repentance, they are not necessary,
01:01:07
God reached out to you, it seems to me like that's an arbitrary sort of thing, because obviously
01:01:16
God is not reaching out to everybody, it just seems to be, make common sense that we must also do our part, or if God for some reason passes us by and has chosen you,
01:01:31
I don't want to wait for him to come to me, I ought to be able to be, you know, do some righteous things that will draw me closer to God.
01:01:41
Well, a couple of things, first of all, when you say that I say repentance is not necessary,
01:01:46
I've never said that, I've said that until God regenerates an individual, faith and repentance, which are described as gifts in Scripture, are something that my sinful heart will not desire to do, and will not in fact be able to do.
01:02:00
That was the first thing. Secondly, what you just said in regards to arbitrary, I don't believe that God, who is the ultimate being, who is the creator of all things, could in fact be arbitrary by definition.
01:02:13
I think what you might be referring to, however, is my firm belief that the Scriptures plainly teach that God in his electing grace is free to give his grace.
01:02:23
Grace cannot be demanded, grace cannot be cajoled, grace cannot be something that has to be given to someone, or it is no longer grace,
01:02:32
Romans 11 6. And so I do believe that the best way to state the age old question, many people say, what will you do with Christ?
01:02:41
Actually, I think the more biblical way of understanding that phrase is, what will Christ do with you? I do believe that he is a sovereign savior, and John 6 .37
01:02:50
says, all that the Father gives me will come to me. That's the only reason why anyone ever has truly come to Christ in repentance.
01:02:59
Okay, I also believe that your belief is that works and righteousness aren't really that important.
01:03:13
No, sir, that wouldn't be true. So you do believe they are important? Well, first of all, works and righteousness are two different things.
01:03:19
Works are the result of the Holy Spirit within our lives conforming us to the image of Christ. Righteousness is imputed to us by faith.
01:03:27
Righteousness is a right standing with God, and it is imputed to us by faith apart from works, according to Romans chapter 4, verses 4 -5.
01:03:44
You're talking about an omnipotent God who would have the wisdom to know who to reach out to.
01:03:54
You do not see purpose in the fall. No, sir, that wouldn't be true.
01:04:02
I haven't said that the fall was not with a purpose. We've disagreed on what the purpose is. I do believe the fall had a purpose.
01:04:09
What is the purpose then? The purpose of everything that God has done in creation, according to Ephesians chapter 1, verse 6, is to resound the glory of His grace.
01:04:17
And so the redemption of a fallen people, absolutely undeservedly in Jesus Christ, is to result in the glorification of the grace of God.
01:04:28
That's what Paul taught us in Ephesians 1 -6. You seem to be opposed to the idea that it is by grace that we are saved after all we can do.
01:04:44
Yes, sir. Assuming that your position is correct, the world is full of evil people, people who are doing the wrong thing.
01:05:03
It's just horrible. The media, everywhere you look, we believe that faith in Christ is necessary.
01:05:15
We believe that the grace of Christ is absolutely necessary.
01:05:21
No matter what we do, we cannot ever earn the right for salvation.
01:05:29
That requires the grace of God. Then what is wrong with a people who believe as you do pretty much, not exactly, about the importance of grace who are trying to do righteous things?
01:05:48
Not that we are. We're falling short. We don't do as many good works as we should.
01:05:56
Why criticize us for wanting to emphasize that when that would solve so many of the world's problems?
01:06:05
Well, first of all, you noted that I disagree with 2 Nephi 25 -23 that says it is by grace we're saved after all we can do.
01:06:11
That's because biblical teaching is by grace we're saved in spite of all we've done. And there is no one outside of the regenerating work of the
01:06:20
Spirit of God who is doing anything that is right in God's sight. All our righteous deeds are filthiness in God's sight, let alone all of our sins.
01:06:30
But we don't agree on grace, and here's why. When you said you agree that grace is very much necessary, almost every religion that I know of says that grace is absolutely necessary.
01:06:44
The issue has never, ever been the necessity of grace. When the Protestant Reformation took place, the Protestant Reformers did not say that Roman Catholicism denied the necessity of grace.
01:06:53
In fact, the Council of Trent anathematized anyone who said you could be saved without it. The issue has always been the sufficiency of grace.
01:07:01
And the definition of grace given in the LDS Bible Dictionary specifically said that grace alone is not sufficient without total effort on the part of mankind.
01:07:11
Well, first of all, no man has ever given total effort. Roni 10 .32 would be a mission impossible way of salvation.
01:07:17
But not only that, Romans 11 .6 tells us that if you try to blend works with grace, you destroy grace.
01:07:24
And, in fact, it speaks of the people of Israel that's, and let me just read this and then you can go on with your next question if you'd like.
01:07:33
At the end of Romans chapter 9 we read, what shall we say then, that the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness even the righteousness which is of faith.
01:07:42
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained the law of righteousness. Why? Because they sought it not by faith but as it were by the works of the law.
01:07:53
For they stumbled at the stumbling stone as it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and a rock of offense and whosoever believes on him shall not be ashamed.
01:08:01
The Jews tried to join works with grace and you cannot do that. Grace has to be free by definition to be divine grace.
01:08:15
You said we have to take a total look at the scriptures and just not certain ones.
01:08:21
I think you've come up with all the important scriptures that talk about grace and the need for faith and but I don't hear you quoting other scriptures like Matthew 5 -6
01:08:37
Blessed are they who hunger and thirst after righteousness for they shall be filled.
01:08:43
Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake. Those of course are the
01:08:48
Beatitudes. Let your light so shine before men that they see your good works and glorify your
01:08:55
Father which is in heaven. Matthew 5 -16 He shall know them by their fruits.
01:09:00
Do men gather grapes of thorns? Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
01:09:06
Matthew 7 -21 Not everyone that saith Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven but he that doeth the will of the
01:09:13
Father which is in heaven. I agree with every single one of those statements. First of all the ones in the
01:09:18
Beatitudes are addressed to Christ's followers and in fact they give us, they give to the Christian the person who has been regenerated and given a new heart the guidance that we need to know how we are to live life in such a way as to honor
01:09:29
God. And I very firmly believe that there will be many who say Lord, Lord in that day that Jesus did not know.
01:09:37
Notice what he says to them. Depart from me for I never knew you. It was not that they did not meet some standard or something.
01:09:46
The relationship with Jesus Christ was simply not there and that is the standard of salvation.
01:09:58
We will now have ten minutes of questions from Dr. White to Dr. Scharfs. Dr. Scharfs, in the
01:10:18
Scriptures we are told that man is dead in sin. What do you understand that phrase dead in sin to mean?
01:10:27
I think that means that we are fallen, a fallen people as a result of the fall that we all sin, we all make mistakes and that we will never find our way out of that dilemma until we accept
01:10:51
Christ and he accepts us. I think that's what it means.
01:10:56
In Romans 8 7 -8 the Apostle Paul said that those who are according to the flesh do not submit themselves to the law of God.
01:11:04
They are not even able to do so. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Is it your position, you just said that a person who is dead in sin can accept
01:11:15
Jesus. Would accepting Jesus be something that is good and pleasing in God's sight?
01:11:21
Yes. Can a spiritually dead person do what is pleasing in God's sight in light of Romans 8 -8 that says that those who are in the flesh cannot please
01:11:33
God? Well I've made quite a study of all those scriptures that seem to support that point of view.
01:11:41
The scriptures make statements like that but they also make the opposite statements.
01:11:48
I found that in every one of those scriptures like the one you quoted almost on the same page they also talk about the importance of effort and work.
01:12:00
I think it would be an inhumane God who would not allow someone who is spiritually dead to come unto him.
01:12:08
In fact the first of the Beatitudes says, Blessed are the poor in spirit. The Book of Mormon incidentally adds the words who come unto me.
01:12:21
I think it would be a cruel God who would rule out someone that is considered spiritually dead.
01:12:28
So I have seen enough cases in my counseling of those who were spiritually dead who did turn around and accept the grace of Christ and his teachings.
01:12:43
So do you believe that it is wrong of God to punish sinners such as for example
01:12:50
Pharaoh when in Romans 9 God says I raised you up for this very purpose that my name and power might be displayed in you and my name might be made known throughout all the earth.
01:13:00
Was that, I don't understand the phrase that would be a cruel or hateful
01:13:05
God. Is not God able to bring his wrath against a sinner at any point in time?
01:13:12
I think he could, yes that's possible. I'd just like to say this, for me to understand the
01:13:19
Scriptures I read them in context, I study and ponder them.
01:13:26
I have a book with 26 different translations of all the Scriptures which I use because I don't know
01:13:32
Greek and Hebrew. And so I like to see what all the different translators have said about the verses.
01:13:41
Sometimes they're completely opposite and that's where a lot of the confusion comes in.
01:13:51
so I really don't feel qualified when you pick a Scripture I'd have to read it in it's context to see if what you're saying is really what
01:14:03
I would agree with. Well I'm a
01:14:09
Scripturalist first and foremost and I believe what I believe because of my study of the
01:14:15
Scriptures and I believe the Scriptures are consistent so I hope you don't mind if I continue to base my comments upon the
01:14:21
Bible maybe if I could for a moment ask you a question about your understanding of Moroni 10 .32
01:14:27
and then go back to some of those Biblical passages. In Moroni chapter 10 we are told that if you will love the
01:14:35
Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and if you will rid yourself of all ungodliness then is the grace of Christ sufficient for you.
01:14:42
Do you know of am I misinterpreting the passage to understand that this is very similar to the
01:14:50
LDS Bible Dictionary that speaks of total effort being required on the part of a person who would avail themselves of the grace and mercy of God?
01:15:01
Yes that seems to be the case and again I don't find fault as I said earlier with that Biblical Dictionary.
01:15:10
If you're interested I could give you examples. You've talked about the Bible being infallible inerrant.
01:15:18
As I read all these different translations which one is inerrant?
01:15:25
For example Job 19 .26 says without my body I shall see
01:15:30
Christ and so I find many Christian people who don't believe in a physical resurrection based on that one verse whereas other translations say within my body
01:15:41
I shall see Christ. Which version is correct? The Jewish Torah says from without from without from my body
01:15:50
I shall see God. So I don't know what that means from within or from without. So what I'm saying is there are so many examples of contradictions in the
01:15:59
Bible. Well sir I would be glad to respond to those but this is my time to ask questions and I will make comments on those because the inerrant
01:16:08
Bible is that which is written by the Holy Spirit of God in Greek and Hebrew. But Moroni 10 .32
01:16:13
does say that a person has to love God perfectly. Do you know of anyone who's ever done that?
01:16:21
I can't say yea or nay. I think I'm trying to and I have a long way to go but there may be some who have achieved that level.
01:16:33
So if you have to love God perfectly and rid yourself of all ungodliness before the grace of Christ is sufficient for you who could ever avail themselves of the grace of Christ?
01:16:49
I don't know. Going back to the scriptures and if you would like when
01:16:55
I cite one of these passages if you feel there's a translational issue I have the original languages with me and we can look at those.
01:17:03
But I'll try to stick to those passages that do not have any translational questions involved with them. Jesus in the synagogue
01:17:10
Capernaum after the Jews who were unbelieving Jews, Jesus identified as unbelievers in verse 36 he said to them stop grumbling amongst yourselves in verse 43 he said no one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him.
01:17:28
Why would Jesus say that no one can come to me if in point of fact the reason for the fall was to introduce agency to man?
01:17:42
I don't know. Alrighty. We'll now have five minute closing statements from each speaker beginning with Dr.
01:17:55
Scharf's. That'll be followed by questions from the audience. I've sorted through those and tried to pick representative questions.
01:18:04
I have some very good questions I'm not going to be able to get to. I've tried to restrict it to the fall of Adam and his consequences and so those that have been on subjects of authority or other areas
01:18:17
I'm going to have to skip over. We're going to begin with Dr. Scharf's. Getting back to the subject of the fall there's one passage
01:18:36
I find quite interesting in Genesis 3, 22 where after the fall the
01:18:43
Lord God said behold the man has become as one of us to no good and evil now lest he put forth his hand and also partake of the tree of life.
01:18:55
I think there's a message there that this was a step in the right direction.
01:19:02
It pleased God. It gave the opportunity for us to develop and to become more like him.
01:19:10
Also in verse 17 there it says because of the thing that they did forbidding the fruit,
01:19:22
I mean eating of the forbidden fruit the Lord said cursed is the ground for thy sake.
01:19:31
Again I think that makes it very clear that the fall had long term positive implications.
01:19:44
Do you want to take? And of course my favorite passage is in verse 16 where it says to Eve thy desire shall be to thy husband and he shall rule over thee.
01:19:57
I mean that's obviously a very inspiring verse. Sorry honey.
01:20:07
Here we see the benefit of modern day prophets. President Kimball said
01:20:12
I have a question about the word rule. It gives the wrong impression. I would rather use the word preside.
01:20:19
I have all these other questions that the prophets have said about that particular verse. I think in the time that I have left
01:20:32
I think I would just like to give a smattering of what I think is one of the great chapters of scripture where Father Lehi blesses his son and I think he gives us many insights into the fall.
01:20:47
Nevertheless, Jacob, my firstborn in the wilderness, thou knowest the greatness of God and he shall consecrate thine afflictions for thy gain.
01:20:57
Wherefore I know that thou art redeemed because of the righteousness of the Redeemer. For thou hast beheld that in the fullness of time he shall come to bring salvation to men.
01:21:09
And the way is prepared from the fall of man and salvation is free. And men are instructed sufficiently that they may know good from evil and the law is given to them.
01:21:21
And by the law no flesh is justified or by the law men are cut off. Yea by the temporal law they were cut off and also by the spiritual law.
01:21:32
And because of the intercession for all all men come unto God wherefore they stand in the presence of him to be judged according to their deeds.
01:21:45
For it must needs be an opposition in all things. If not so, the firstborn in the wilderness righteousness could not be brought to pass.
01:21:56
Nor wickedness neither holiness or misery neither good or bad.
01:22:04
Wherefore it must have been created for earth must have been created for a thing of naught. But then he goes on to say that men are free.
01:22:17
There must be that opposition in all things. The position we hold is not completely foreign to I think the majority of Christians.
01:22:33
In John Milton's Paradise Lost, Oh goodness infinite, goodness immense, that all this good of evil shall produce.
01:22:44
The evil turn to good, more wonderful than that by which creation first brought forth.
01:22:51
And one of my favorite Protestant authors, Philip Yancey, said
01:22:58
Oh happy guilt was a staple of medieval theology once still separated in the
01:23:05
Holy Saturday literature. It means simply that in a mysterious way we are better off now than before Adam's fall.
01:23:15
The final chapter of this story, Redemption achieves a state superior to the first chapter.
01:23:24
As Augustine expressed, the final
01:23:31
God judged it better to bring good out of evil than to suffer no evil at all.
01:23:39
The final result will prove the worth of its cost. And in the
01:23:46
Book of Mormon it says when the day of judgment comes, we will all agree that the judgments of God were perfect.
01:23:58
I find great comfort in knowing the purposes of life and that God loves us, that he wants to reach out to us, and that we have the ability to choose to serve him.
01:24:19
I just find this very satisfying. I just can't understand there not being a purpose in all this.
01:24:35
I can't believe in a God who would create an evil situation without purpose.
01:24:48
I can't help but feel that a God who created man who is the father of our spirits, that he would create a situation where there is so much suffering.
01:25:13
Believing that we have existed co -eternally with God does not make
01:25:19
God completely responsible for the situation we find ourselves in in this life.
01:25:28
I feel that the ex nihilo concept does not explain the suffering and that the concept of the fall without reason and purpose and for introducing agency, life would not have as much meaning to me as it does.
01:26:02
But I respect the position of Dr. White and I feel that he has been kind.
01:26:09
I admire him and I wish the Lord's blessings upon him.
01:26:17
And I say this in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen. We'll now have a five -minute closing statement by Dr.
01:26:28
White. I believe that Dr.
01:26:35
Sharris has misunderstood me. I have not indicated in any way that the fall of Adam was without a purpose.
01:26:43
I have disagreed that the purpose of the fall of Adam was to introduce agency into the human race.
01:26:49
I have said that the purpose of the fall of Adam and everything that has taken place in this universe flows from Ephesians 1 .11
01:26:57
that describes the true and eternal God as the God who works all things after the counsel of his own will, not after the counsel of his creature's will.
01:27:08
And so I have made that very, very clear. I think the issue this evening can be really summarized in considering that when
01:27:16
Adam and Eve fell, we are told in Genesis 3 .7, then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked, and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.
01:27:30
Adam and Eve tried to hide their guilt. They came up with their own way of doing it.
01:27:35
They did not go to God. They did not seek his remedy for their sin. They experienced guilt, and out of their guilt they acted.
01:27:43
Later on in Genesis chapter 3, after they encounter God and God brings conviction of their sin, verse 21 says, the
01:27:53
Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.
01:27:59
To make garments of skin requires sacrifice. Those animals had to give their lives.
01:28:07
God rejected the man -made religion that Adam and Eve created in result of their guilt.
01:28:16
They sewed fig leaves together. They sewed leaves together and made aprons. God said no.
01:28:23
God created a sacrifice, and he covered their nakedness in his own way, not man's way.
01:28:29
Fallen man is not up to creating God's truth. He is dependent upon God's truth.
01:28:38
The fall of Adam brought ruin to the human race. But it is quite true, the things that Augustine were saying, but Augustine did not agree with Moroni 10 .32.
01:28:51
Augustine was talking about the fact that what we have in Romans chapter 5 is that those who are in Christ have so much more than those who are only in Adam.
01:29:03
The free gift is not like the transgression. To be united with Christ, to be redeemed, to be given the righteousness of Christ is to indeed have a greater condition than Adam ever had.
01:29:18
But to understand that is to first and foremost understand the seriousness of sin.
01:29:24
The reason that we engage in these kinds of discussions is to again focus everyone's attention on the most important thing.
01:29:36
People often ask me, since this is the 33rd General Conference I think
01:29:41
I've come to here in Salt Lake City, why don't you believe the
01:29:46
Book of Mormon? And there are many reasons, I've listed many of them in my books, but the primary reason is passages like Moroni 10 .32
01:29:54
and 2 Nephi 25 .23. Those passages are directly contradictory to the teachings of the
01:30:01
Lord Jesus and the Apostle Paul as recorded for us in those inspired and errant scriptures that have been protected by the
01:30:09
Holy Spirit of God and given to us as the rule of our faith and life. The grace that Paul talks about in Romans 11 .6,
01:30:17
Romans 8, Romans 3 and 4 and 5, Galatians 2 and 3, or that Jesus spoke of when he spoke of faith in him, the necessity of clinging to him and he being the only source of spiritual life, that teaching is directly contrary to the idea that anyone could ever rid themselves of all ungodliness and could ever love
01:30:39
God perfectly apart from the grace of Christ. You cannot add human merit and works to grace and continue to have grace.
01:30:52
That was the failure of Israel. And if we love people and if we love
01:30:57
God's truth, then we will stand firm for that gospel once for all delivered to the saints.
01:31:04
That's why this is so vital. I invite any of you this evening, please, take the time to consider well
01:31:11
Romans 3, 10 through 18. Consider well the testimony to the true nature of sin and the holiness of God.
01:31:23
It is my sincere desire that just as Job benefited so greatly from the interview he had with God, he had complained much against God's providence, but he at the end of the book of Job encounters the true
01:31:41
God and the result is I place my hand over my mouth.
01:31:48
That's what we need to have happen. When our tongues are stopped, when we no longer profess our self -righteousness, when we see
01:31:56
God as he is and see our need as we have it, then and only then will we see the absolute necessity of a
01:32:07
Savior who can save, a Savior who can save perfectly the
01:32:13
Lord Jesus Christ and then everything will be to his glory, his honor, and his praise.
01:32:18
Thank you for being here this evening. Please wait. Please hold your applause until we can applaud both speakers in just a moment.
01:32:29
Because of the video troubles, we are running short on time, so I'm going to have to condense this and ask both speakers to keep their responses as short as possible.
01:32:40
We'll begin with Dr. White. Dr. White, can you define sin, please? Sin is described by the
01:32:46
Apostle John as lawlessness, that is a rejection of God's revealed will, which in the case of Adam and Eve, the extent of the revelation of his will was that they were not to partake of the fruit which they did.
01:32:57
So it is a creature made in the image of God, rebelling against the very revelation that God has made as to how he is to live.
01:33:05
Dr. Scharf, same question to you. What is sin? That sounds like a pretty good definition to me.
01:33:12
Dr. White, this is a lengthy question. I'm going to have to read it in its entirety to give the context.
01:33:20
Dr. White, why was man even created by your God? Why didn't your God just make angels? Angels started off in heaven or in heaven and will remain in heaven.
01:33:29
They appear to be created saved. They don't appear to be depraved or have an evil or sinful nature.
01:33:36
Satan sinned, but it appears to have had no effect on angels. All men have sinned, but this doesn't appear to apply to angels.
01:33:43
Angels don't go through the man experience. So why did your God not just make angels then all creation would be saved from the beginning?
01:33:54
Well, the ultimate answer to the question, why did God do anything, including the creation of man, is found, as I mentioned in Ephesians chapter 1, to the praise, the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved one, that is, in Jesus Christ.
01:34:09
Everything that God has done, including the creation of angels as well as man, is fundamentally for that purpose.
01:34:15
In regards to human beings themselves, they are treated differently than angels are. Jesus Christ did not die in the place of angels.
01:34:22
He did not become an angel, and angels and men are a different order of being.
01:34:28
They are not all the same species as you would have in LDS theology, where you have different levels of exaltation.
01:34:36
And so God created man, first and foremost, to bring honor and glory to himself through the redemption of the people in Jesus Christ to himself.
01:34:44
As Titus chapter 2 puts it, that's what Jesus Christ is doing. He is, in fact, creating a people zealous for good works, a people for his own name.
01:34:56
Dr. Sharves, just a moment ago, Dr. White explained the Reformation perspective of Genesis 3, where God stripped
01:35:04
Adam and Eve of their fig leaves and clothed them in coats of skin, the understanding being that the promise had been that in the day that you eat thereof you shall die, but that instead of the death of Adam and Eve, there was the death of a sacrifice pointing ultimately to Jesus Christ.
01:35:21
That's the Reformation perspective. What is the LDS perspective of the reasoning behind the taking away of the fig leaves and the replacement with the coats of skin in Genesis 3?
01:35:37
I suppose that when Adam and Eve lost their innocence and realized the condition they were in, they did the expedient thing and it was a temporary sort of thing and then
01:35:55
I don't see any reason why God couldn't instruct them to do something more permanent and something more comfortable and something warmer.
01:36:06
Okay. Dr. White, you said there is nothing we can do. Cannot we choose to exercise faith or not?
01:36:14
And he goes on, can we not choose to repent or not to repent or be baptized or not to be baptized? Does not the first of the above choices please
01:36:23
God? Are these not good works? Well, again, that is the big issue and the
01:36:29
Bible is very, very plain. Jesus says, no man is able to come to me. To come to him does mean to believe in him.
01:36:34
Look at John 6 .37 and the rest of the passages. Romans chapter 8. The terms of inability are very, very clear and that is because Jesus said that the one who sins is the slave of sin.
01:36:48
We have to be freed from our bondage to sin to be able to do those things that are pleasing to God.
01:36:55
Romans chapter 8 verses 7 through 8. And I think the thing that bothers most systems of theology about that, certainly not mine, but most systems of theology is that that means we are completely, 100 % dependent upon God.
01:37:11
It is God who saves. It is God that we must find everything from.
01:37:18
And there is nothing, we don't control God. We do not control him. And that is, in my understanding, that is the main element of man's religions.
01:37:27
Is that he seeks to control the power of God by his religious activities.
01:37:33
And Christianity says, God is free. Dr. Scharfs, if the fall of Adam and Eve initiated free agency, then by what agency did they choose to sin in the first place?
01:37:51
Well, when they were given contradictory commandments, one to multiply and replenish the earth, which required a mortal existence, and the other one, which would have kept them in their ideal, it seems to me like that was
01:38:08
God offering them a meaningful choice. And they then made the choice, which instigated free agency.
01:38:24
Dr. White, if we must first be chosen by God to receive his grace and let our hearts open to him, why does it seem he chooses one and not another?
01:38:34
Why me and not my brother or my father? Is this where agency comes into play? Actually, going back again to the inspired scriptures,
01:38:43
Ephesians 1 -4, according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him, in love having predestinated us under the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, and here's the key answer, according to the good pleasure of his will.
01:39:01
And that does mean that what I am saying is that in eternity to come, where you have those who surround the throne of God in heartfelt adoration of God, and you have those who continue in their rebellion and their hatred of God over here, the only thing that separates those two groups is a five -letter word called grace.
01:39:29
It is God's will and God's purpose that differentiates that is the clear and plain teaching of the inspired scripture.
01:39:37
Dr. Scharffs, can people sin in the pre -existence and also can children sin and at what age?
01:39:50
Well, obviously there was a type of sin committed in the pre -mortal existence because not all of the people followed
01:40:01
God's plan at that time. They rejected it. They followed Satan's plan. And so they were cast out.
01:40:09
Obviously God was very displeased with them. And so yes, we had the right to do that, to rebel and reject even at that time.
01:40:22
This probably ties in with the question just prior to this and I don't think I answered it properly because obviously in heaven and in the
01:40:30
Garden of Eden there was free agency. However, to place be placed into a mortal situation with all of its risks and evils there had to be a reinforcement that this principle applied to mortality as well as it had been applied before.
01:41:02
We greatly appreciate you coming here this evening. We greatly appreciate the spokesman. If you have questions about what you've heard this evening, if you'd like information, oh,
01:41:12
I'm sorry. The age of aid is the age of accountability as defined in the
01:41:19
Book of Mormon. We do not believe children are responsible. It's the atonement of Christ that resurrects them and pays for any mistakes that they make because they do not yet have a clear conscience.
01:41:36
My apologies. If you have any questions about what you've heard here this evening I have email addresses if both men would agree that I can share them that you can pass on other questions to them.
01:41:51
If you have a desire for resources, we have free books including the book
01:41:57
Letters to a Mormon Elder by Dr. James White. All you have to do is ask for it and promise to read it.
01:42:03
We have a wealth of materials. You can just contact us either out of the yellow pages. There are still a few copies of our newsletter up here and you can also sign up for our mailing list.
01:42:13
I ask now that you give a round of applause to both speakers. Hunter High School has been very gracious to us in this and very patient.