Jeremiah Nortier Vs Matt Salih :: Should We Hold to Sola Fide?

Debate Introduction and Speaker Bios

All right. Thank you for joining me in this episode of the gospel truth. I'm your host marla wilson, man. It's been a while man. I think this is the first show within the last week. Um, I haven't had one in quite some time, but i'm glad to be in front of you today.

Um today, thank you for joining me on the gospel truth. We're engaging the culture because true. That's what we do on the gospel truth. And we do the engaging by debates interviews and bible lessons and we have another debate for you today.

Should should we hold to sole fide? I have matt saley and uh, jeremiah nortier and we're gonna be debating that but before I bring my audience in I do want To go ahead my not my audience, but my interlocutor should I say?

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Um that said I have a whole bunch of shows coming up here on the gospel truth soon. So let me go over a couple little shows and before we bring uh, matt and jeremiah in. All right coming up wednesday january 22nd I have is purgatory biblical that's coming up john o 'rourke versus matthew broderick.

That's gonna be january 22nd at 4 p .m. pacific standard time. 7 p .m. Eastern standard time. After that, I have a lesson coming up on the 25th of this month. What is pelagianism? So make sure you are jumping on that because this is going to be great.

I've been diving to a lot of things concerning pelagianism. Um, and I look forward to doing this lesson. So hope you can join me on that one. After that, I have that's a book of mark teach that jesus is the one true god.

I had dr Del tuggy, uh unitarian reverend anthony rogers trinitarian one of the better Apologists for the trinitarian position anthony rogers and that's coming up. January 30th at 1 p .m Pacific standard time that's 4 p .m. Eastern standard time.

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That's just the next several shows coming up here on the gospel truth. So make sure you're staying with the gospel truth that's going on. Make sure you're liking make sure you're subscribing make sure you're hitting that's a notification bell.

Make sure you're sharing this content so we can uh, i'll be happy together and sharing this gospel truth stuff together, right? So I thank you guys for joining me. Let me bring my my interlocutors in jeremiah.

Nortina has been on before I I cannot remember who he debated, but he did a great job. I do remember that. If I remember one thing, I remember he did a great great job. He was able to communicate. I think he debated, uh.

Mormon dude, I think he played a mormon cat. I can't remember his name, but he did a great job. I really appreciate jeremiah. So I reached out to him to see if he'd come back on and tackle. Uh tackle, mr Matt saly, uh, matt saly been on the show a couple times actually he did a two on two debate and he did a solo Debate, so this is going to be a great debate man.

Once again, the topic is solely should we hold the solely feeding? So I expect these guys to really perform. So let me bring these guys in so they can introduce themselves. What's up guys what's going on?

What y 'all y 'all doing? Hey.

Hey doing good.

Good. How things over there jeremiah. What you got going over there, man.

It's cold. It's too cold down here in the south.

In the south man. The south man, you said human weather. Down there man, that's what's up. What's going on matt? What's up with you on your side, man?

Oh, man, you know things are definitely cold up here, you know, I think the only warm thing is uh, the love, you know just um. Did a recent shout out to just uh being married, uh, which is a wonderful um, you know and just happy new year to everybody, uh.

Yeah, other than that, oh and also, um, I recently gotten um, I really knew an amazing job um, just working with internationals and foreigners and um, You know, the the money is so great that for the first time ever Uh, i'm gonna be a homeowner.

You know, you have to just kind of save up that much and it's just a it's a blessing and um, and it's timely so. Excellent excellent. No, it's good.

Amen. Amen. Good stuff, man. I appreciate you guys for joining us on this episode of gospel truth. That said I always like to give introductions man. So i'm gonna allow you guys to give you guys a chance to introduce yourself to the audience as always.

Make sure you're sharing blogs. Make sure you're sharing your if you got a youtube page. Make sure you let them know what you got going on where all your content is so they can come follow you or Or read some of your content man.

So that said jeremiah if you don't mean if you don't mind. Go give a quick introduction yourself, man.

Yeah.

Yeah, thank you everybody for tuning in this evening. My name is jeremiah nortier. Um, I attend a church here in jonesborough arkansas called 12 -5 church. So I just want to encourage you to please go to our website at 12 -5 church .com.

That's the word 12 the number 5 church .com.

So.

I've been married a little bit over five years now. My wife ally nortier is definitely in my better half and I love her with all my heart. She is definitely my rock and I just I love studying god's word.

Jesus christ is my lord and savior and we are called to share the gospel. So that is my main objective today is just to share the gospel in clear terms, especially how the scripture defines what the gospel is.

So, um, thank you all once again for tuning in. I'm really looking forward to this discussion with matt. Like he said, um, i'm anticipating good vibes. Um, I know we're gonna have a really good conversation this evening.

All right. All right. Thank you. Jeremiah. All right, matt. Give a quick introduction yourself, man.

Hey, what's going on? Everybody? Um, i'm matthew. Sully aka so real is my poet name Um just from the pittsburgh area. Uh sometime around this time last year. I had launched a ministry called the father's well Um, and so far there have been people just from all over Um all over the country who just tune in every sunday.

And also wednesdays, um just for some open bible lessons I'm trying to add some new things in there like an hour before we start that we will go ahead and go through some prayer. Um, you know, we also contact each other just throughout the week.

It's more than just a bible study. It's a bible journey. Um, also there have been uh, just some good testimonies that have been on. My recent um, or not my recent but uh, my other youtube channel so real.

And you know, we basically had a a testimony about how everything's been Um, and also opened up the father's well youtube channel Um, and I just released a lot of things that we have went over Um just throughout the past year.

Um, not everything though, but if you want to know more about it, then just email me at ssoreal at gmail .com. Other than that, um, you know, I I am recently married. Um, autumn scott is my rock Um, she is you know, the the woman Of of my life my journey my dreams my destiny Um, where would I be without her?

I can say so much more things. Um, but yeah other than that in terms of church I'm definitely looking for Uh a church home. So that's something a little new to me, you know I'm always rock solid and i'm just basically staying with you know a church for 18 years and whatnot but you know just going through some new chapters and um, i'm really looking forward to.

Just seeing where you know, the lord just wants to plan us next but other than that Um, i'm just ready to have a a beautiful uh discussion, uh, just on the topic of my boy jeremiah, so.

Uh, thank you. Thank you mark. So we're gonna jump into this real quick and then we'll jump into this debate. So once again, the topic of this debate is should we hold just solely solar fee day? All right.

So that says it'll be 10 minute opening statements five minute rebuttals. We're gonna follow that with a 15 minute cross-examination first 30 minutes to be 15 minutes each to ask questions. Uh, the final 20 minutes it will be 10 minutes each to ask questions.

Then we'll follow that with five minute closings and then q a from the audience and that q a each. Participant will get one minute each to respond to the question. Um, so that's it. Uh, mr Jeremiah, no tear you're arguing the affirmative in this debate.

So you are up first for your opening statement. Let me know when you're ready and then I will start your time.

All right. I'm good to go.

All right, jeremiah. You got it, man.

Justification by Faith Alone and Romans 4

Justification by faith alone is the article on which the church stands or falls and this famously said by martin luther. Uh, the question we are discussing today is should we hold to sola fide? And my answer is firmly.

Yes, because historically the doctrine of sola fide which is latin and translated into english as faith alone. This teaches us that man is justified before god by faith apart from works. So by way of analogy imagine that you have a table and on the table.

You have an apple and you have an orange take the orange off the table and the apple is left standing alone. So on the table of justification you have two things you have faith. And works take faith off the table and it's faith alone that justifies us before god.

I believe the scriptures clearly teach us this doctrine. My primary passage of scripture is going to be romans chapter 4 verses 2 through 6 and then I want to present to you three major points so our passage says.

For if abraham was justified by works he has something to boast about but not before god. For what does the scripture say? Abraham believed god and it was accounted to him as righteousness. Now to the one who works his wages are not counted as a gift.

But as his due and to the one who does not work. But believe him who justifies the ungodly his faith is counted as righteousness. Just as david also speaks of the blessing of the one whom god counts righteousness.

Apart from works. So my first major point is understanding the word faith. The greek word for faith is pistis, which means conviction of the truth and it's coupled with trust. We must understand that faith internal and of the heart faith is not.

Faith is not able to be seen by the human eye. It's immaterial and so it cannot be weighed or measured. That is why god ultimately sees the heart of man. Faith is also firm trust according to hebrews 11 verse 1 and this cannot be understood to mean as mere intellectual ascent.

Firm trust is so much more than understanding facts. But it's firm trust and firm trust will compel the will to do Love and to do good works and to love one's neighbor and ultimately have a loving relationship with god.

And so my second major point is understanding the word works. Paul uses two different greek words that can be translated into english as works. Back in romans 4 verse 2. Once again, we read paul. For if abraham was justified by works, then he has something to boast about but not before god.

Here is the greek word ergon which means any general action or conduct of man. And so it would seem that paul's use of the word ergon. He's being abundantly clear and he's condemning any idea of human working.

To help justify us before god. But it's as though he's anticipating an objection where someone could say well. General works don't justify us before god, but it must be our specific works that have a particular goal in view.

That will contribute to our justification. And so paul refutes that idea when he says May ergod my in the greek when he says may this is one of the strongest uses of negation possible. And then he says ergod's in mind.

This means um to work to earn by commitment of exercise. Performance trade or labor. Listen to what he says again in romans 4 verse 5. And to the one who does not work May ergod's of mine but believes in him who justifies the ungodly his faith.

Pistis his firm trust is counted as righteousness. So paul is completely obliterating any system that is dependent on human works to obtain a right standing with god. Rather it is inward faith that trust in the savior and his finished work alone.

That is how we are justified. This would directly refute second temple judaism's interpretation of the hebrew scriptures that righteousness can be obtained by works of law. Paul's teaching on justification would strongly rebuke the eastern orthodox and roman catholicism's teaching that in order for a person to obtain Justification You must perform an action of faith by the sacrament of holy water baptism.

This is to conflate faith in works blurring the lines and not understanding the distinctions. Romans chapter 4 clearly teaches us that pistis inward trusting faith inevitably will produce works as an effect.

But works are no way the instrumentation of receiving righteousness and declaring us right before god. This was never the case even with abraham who is before the law. Not with david under the law and not with christians after the law's fulfillment.

It has always been on the basis of faith in the promise of the god who cannot lie. So my third and final major point is understanding the word Justification. This greek word is defined as an act of god declaring men free from guilt.

This is a legal forensic courtroom term in relation to crime. One way to demonstrate this is by utilizing the greek septuagint to justify. Is often used in the court of law dealing with legal ramifications of lawsuits and instructions of justice.

And paul uses the same terminology in romans 4 verse 5. Listen to this carefully again. And to the one who does not work but believe Believes in him who justifies the ungodly his faith is counted as righteousness.

The way that paul uses the word counted here is really crucial to our conversation. He's using this in a way of legal transaction. Listen to the immediate context. He uses words like justify works wages and the use of his due.

The greek word for counted means to pass to one's account to impute and so that's huge. He's talking about imputation. Imputation is a legal forensic declaration that establishes a new legal status. A good example of this is when a minister Declares to a couple husband and wife.

They are now legally married. They were not married when they walked in but the moment after the minister declared them. And so very similarly in romans chapter 4 paul is painting a courtroom picture.

Where god the father is judge and jesus christ pays our debt and then he intercedes for us. He pleads for us like a defense attorney on our behalf. The judge literally declares us not guilty because of jesus's righteousness.

Credited to our account by faith apart from works. And so paul without question brings this back to the courtroom setting in romans chapter 8. Listen to the legal terminology that he uses. And those whom he predestined He also called.

And those whom he called he Justified. And those whom he justified he also glorified who shall bring a charge against god's elect. Who is to condemn christ? Jesus is the one who died and more than that who was raised who is at the right hand of god who indeed is interceding For us.

So please listen carefully to me here if paul is using legal forensic terminology. Then that means we receive jesus's righteousness by imputation. It is impossible to understand that paul in the book of romans is saying that our right standing before god rests on our own achievement.

And in the mo and one of the most amazing passages in the bible comes from isaiah chapter 53. That prophesies about jesus christ suffering and dying on our behalf. The text says he was pierced for our transgressions.

He was crushed for our iniquities and by his wounds. We are healed. Hopefully you hear the substitution language that the prophet is using. The servant is suffering not for his own sin since he was sinless, but as a substitute for sinners.

Now isaiah Concludes the chapter by saying this. And I want you to hear the legal terminology that he uses. The righteous one my servant will Justify the many for he will bear their wrongdoings because he poured out his life unto death and was counted imputed with wrongdoers.

Yet he himself bore the sin of many and Interceded you hear that that interceding again like a defense attorney for wrongdoers. It is so important for us to understand how the scripture uses this type of legal terminology.

Even in jesus's final moments on the cross. He said it is finished. This phrase is translated from the greek to telestai. This is an accounting term, which means paid for.

In full.

Jesus paid in full the consequence of our sin debt to the father therefore negating any possibility of anybody else coming and adding Their works to the already finished work of jesus purchasing our salvation.

So in closing here I just want to end with. The scripture declares that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of god. And that sin debt earns for us eternal death. And this is the gospel truth that when you look to jesus In faith apart from trusting in yourself or your works or anything else in this world.

But by trusting in him alone the just judge of all the earth Imputes jesus's perfect obedience to the law and his atonement for sin to your account. The judge can look to you and legally declare you can go free my son because someone else has paid your debt In full.

Thank you marlon.

Faith, Works, and the Process of Salvation

All right. Thank you. Jeremiah for that open statement. All right, matt. You're up for your 10-minute opening.

Cool all right. Just a moment. Let me go ahead and share my screen. Here you show your screen.

Show your screen. I will start uh the timeline to show your screen and start.

All right, okay. All right. All right. Can you guys see this? Yes, we can. Just a second. Okay, so.

Um.

That that that was a blessing. Um, that was a blessing here. Um, so this is basically what I have. Two things that I really want to to talk about is identifying faith and salvation. And are there three parts Of salvation.

Are the three parts of salvation separate or are they interdependently all together? If justification sanctification and glorification are separate and independent from each other. And if faith is separate and independent from works then sola fide is true.

But if the bible repaid repeatedly repetitively preaches and teaches otherwise then faith alone is false. Faith is a belief that you live by. Faith alone is a belief. Is a belief that you adopt, you know, that's true.

You adopt it. But is there more to that than faith alone? Is there more to faith alone. For if there is more than to faith alone then faith alone is false. Everything i'm about to share with you can be summed up in this little parable.

I made up.

Literally.

Two men saw a magical loaf of bread. One man said let's eat it. The other man said okay. I'll slice it up. But it's magic bread the other man said. The other man sliced away carefully as he could. But the bread simply came back together.

How about we just eat the bread now? Are you done? The other man said. Not only am I done, but i'm starving. While eating the other man asked why the bread could not be sliced. The other man replied I suppose whoever made this bread didn't make it to be eaten alone.

And i'm just gonna let that linger. Faith and good works are both just as important and required for salvation. That is my position. Some traditional protestants believe this but disagree on how it's expressed.

Why? Because they separate justification sanctification and glorification. It's called deification for roman catholics theosis for eastern orthodox. That's me. But does the bible do this?

No.

And i'll prove it shortly or at least in my rebuttal. But first things first I want to go ahead and read a quote From john piper who talks about faith alone. And in all caps is basically my response to what i'm understanding.

He's from desiring god that faith alone doesn't mean the same thing when applied to justification. Sanctification and final salvation. It's very interesting. Paul would affirm all of this because he said in galatians 5 6 in christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything.

But only faith working through love. The only kind of faith that counts for justification Is the kind that produces love according to him. So the only kind of faith that counts for justification according to john piper Is faith with works or faith that works because it's it's the only kind of faith That produces love or produces anything.

He continues the kind that bears the fruit of love that the faith which alone justifies is never alone. But always is bearing transforming fruit. So faith alone justifies you. But the faith you have is not without works and later fruit.

Which are the very things, you know that you need your faith. To have in order for it to be the kind of faith that justifies or produces fruit. So if these works and fruit are things that are required of you In order to have this right kind of faith, then you are not justified by faith alone.

Unless i'm misunderstanding. Something that did he say? So when james says quote that these controversial words quote, um. A person is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2 24. I take him to mean not by faith.

Which is alone? But faith which shows itself. He says paul calls this effect or fruit of evidence of faith. The work of faith he quotes all these scriptures to say what it is. Um, but i'm here to tell you that when you actually look at those passages paul doesn't even have this in the context or concern.

If you don't believe me, we just walk through together. Just ask me during a q a or whatever i'll show you Another one and the obedience of faith same thing these works of faith. And the obedience of faith these fruits of the spirit that come by faith are necessary for our final salvation.

Oh, I see. So faith alone isn't what finally saves someone. He finally says no holiness. No heaven. Right hebrews 12 14, you know without holiness. No one will see god in other words if you downplay your sanctification process.

Then.

No heaven for you, basically. And finally he ends up saying so. We should not speak of getting to heaven by faith alone. In the same way that we are justified by faith alone. Do you see the issue? The issue is is that a lot of times and I could be wrong about this.

But a lot of times when you have to constantly split things up so much to make your doctrine consistent. That lets me know that there's something not very consistent about it. Because I thought that if you're justified by faith alone, you're good you're fit for heaven.

That's it. But if that kind of faith doesn't get you to heaven and something else does then that lets me know that faith alone. I guess according to them faith alone saves you but faith alone doesn't get you to heaven.

So there's more stuff that you have to do. And that you know kind of gets into you know, my little category here. So i'm hearing a lot of what protestants are saying and I know that john piper does not speak for everyone.

I know that. Um, but I thought he would be the most consistent if he's not. Then please give you know, show me some things where all these things weave together. But I decided to do. I decided to look at all the verses starting with jesus where it seems like he's talking about faith alone.

But then after that you look and he said some other things because I only have you know, so many minutes. Obviously, I can't go so i'm gonna go ahead down to. The one I think can stand out the most. This is john 15 Versus one through six and it says I am the true vine and my father is the gardener.

Okay, that's cool. He takes away every branch that does not bear fruit in me. Right branch that's usually us right where the branch is, you know, and of course we're in christ, right? That's a phrase that we find everywhere.

Mainly because of jesus when he says stuff like this in me. So here's people that are in christ. They're a branch. But the father is doing something to these individuals who are in christ who are branches.

But they're not bearing fruit and the father takes him away. And wherever he takes him, I don't think it's heaven. He says he prunes every branch that bears fruit so that it will bear more fruit, you know prunings when you take away any excess kind of Leftover branches so that way the fruit can grow in his place more fruit grow in his place, right?

And so finally he says you are clean already because of the word that I have spoken to you. Remain in me now. Now. This is the part where jesus is talking, right? Remain in me. This is his part and I will remain in you.

So that's something that we we have to do, right? Just as a branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine in me. You can't bear fruit apart from me.

Right.

So neither can you unless you remain in me? I am the vine and you're on the branches. The one who remains in me and I in him bears much fruit. Because apart from me you can accomplish nothing if anyone does not remain in me.

Notice that the the key verse the key word is remain, you know, if you choose not to stay. Two minutes left if you choose not to stay right you choose not to bear fruit. You choose to just go ahead and be apart from him.

This says he is thrown out like a branch and dries up. And such branches are gathered up. That's not a gathering you want to be a part of. And thrown into the fire. And they are burnt up. So you can see the father doing some things and he's a bit more direct.

And the son is giving some warnings about what happens and so when you put it together, you know, you do see. That there is a fruit bearing process. Right a give back to god that he's looking for right.

And also it's not just these external good works. No, but these good works bear fruits that actually change you or in other words sanctify you you go through this process. Where as in romans where it says you're conformed to the image of the sun.

That's a real thing that you have to go through. That's what it's talking about in bearing fruit. It's just not. Loving your neighbor looking out for the poor. You know, it's also internal as well, you know, um, and so tons of other things.

That jesus talks about. I can't read all these because I don't have time. But if you look on the right, he does talk about the eucharist and he says if you go ahead and do this. You'll live forever. Now notice that grace is now being imparted in this act.

You know, I thought that faith was supposed to be the thing that saves but jesus just like all the apostles and everyone else I could show later end up talking about these things and.

Oh, okay. Yep. All right. That's time right there. All right. So now we're going to go ahead transition to our rebuttal round of this debate. Uh, once again, it's five minute rebuttals. Start with jeremiah, man.

You're up for your five minute rebuttal. Let me know when you're ready and then i'll start your time. All right, i'm ready. All right, you got it man.

Legal Forensic Justification and Imputation

Man, I just want to thank you two for talking with me here. Um, you had a lot of really good points. I'm, not going to be able to cover them all so i'll try to cover what I can remember and I was able to jot down.

Now I think you're right. Something that I on my side of things I see distinctions between justification. Sanctification and glorification. I don't see it all being lumped into one, you know thing and it's mainly because.

Uh, the scripture sees these as different categories now. They're all really important and at the moment of salvation and the rebirth being born again. I think there's a lot of things going on. Um as an instantaneous miracle, we'll probably get more into that.

But I think there's a deeper rooted issue. Um, not just recognizing those three categories, but is paul in the book of romans using forensic Terminology is he making a legal declaration about our right standing before god or is it an ongoing process?

I think that's going to be the deeper issue. Uh that we talked about so one place that I want to point out to you man. And you're asking maybe maybe you're wrong on some things. Maybe you can get clarifications romans 8 and the golden chain of redemption um at least shows us the difference between justification and glorification.

And I think uh sanctification is also in the context so starting in romans 8 verse 29 to 30 says. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son. So there's going to be a sanctifying process that happens in the lives of god's children.

But then the golden chain goes on to say of those whom he predestined. He also called those who he called he also justified. And then he goes on to say. That they will also be glorified so the apostle paul utilizes different terminology there, so we'll get more into that.

Um, since we're limited on time you touched on galatians 5 verse 6 faith working love. I love this scripture because true living faith pistis. Always is going to have external results. It's all works is always going to flow from a heart that loves the savior.

So the thing you got to keep in mind is that we are justified declared righteous by faith. Apart from anything else that we could do in this world. That's what we mean by faith alone not by bringing in our works not by partaking in sacramental works.

We got to understand that jesus did all the works necessary on the cross to purchase our redemption. So maybe we could talk more into um the effects of of faith which is loving works absolutely with the fruit of the spirit.

Um.

He said faith alone saves you but doesn't get you into heaven. So when we say salvation salvation can be used in multiple contexts and I would say salvation Could be understood in those three categories that you talked about but we're talking about the initial point of justification.

What must we do to be justified before god we must put our internal trust. Faith in the savior into him alone. So that's what we're saying and then god does a wonderful work of regeneration that changes our heart that compels us to desire to be obedient.

Hopefully we can get into that. That's what john piper was talking about. And so we got just a little under two minutes you brought up john chapter 15. I love this parable this imagery that jesus uses.

So when he says every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away. So absolutely there are a lot of people that are in the church building that appear like they Are a a christian and so you can be in the vine and and um, interestingly enough It was john piper that told me is there a way to be in the vine?

And not actually be a true regenerate born again christian. We see him at church every single day. We show we can't see him, but god knows the heart. So he's using imagery here and we know That jesus is not going to contradict himself using this parable earlier.

He said in john chapter 6 um, I believe it's verse 37 where he says All that the father gives to me will come to me and whoever comes to comes to me. I will never cast out Jesus is using clear didactic Uh language there and in john 15 he's using imagery to show that professing christians that don't have internal faith in the savior.