February 5, 2016 Show with Dean Bertsch on “Missions & Sovereign Grace”

Introduction to Iron Sharpens Iron and Proverbs 27:17

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet earth, listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Friday on this fifth day of February 2016 and I'm very delighted that today we have on Iron Sharpens Iron a guest by the name of Dean Birch.

He is an old friend of mine from back in the 90s when we both would regularly attend the John Bunyan Conference. Actually, it was typically just known as the Bunyan Conference, but I don't want our listeners who are unfamiliar with that conference to think that we were going to some kind of podiatrist conference somewhere.

It is not a foot disorder we're talking about. We're talking about the great, legendary John Bunyan of Pilgrim's Progress fame from the 17th century. John Bunyan was the reformed Baptist in England imprisoned for preaching without a minister's license in the 1600s, but wrote, thanks be to God, Pilgrim's Progress while in prison.

I digress by speaking about John Bunyan right now. That's where I originally became aware of this dear brother, Dean Birch, and he is currently with Reaching and Teaching International Ministries and we're going to find out more about that during the interview, but it's my honor and privilege to welcome you, Dean Birch, to Iron Sharpens Iron.

It's a pleasure to be here, Chris.

Thank you so much.

Reaching and Teaching International Ministries and Personal Testimony

Tell our listeners something about Reaching and Teaching International Ministries before we get into the heart of our interview today.

Absolutely.

Reaching and Teaching exists basically to take training to so many parts of the world where people serving in pastoral roles or pursuing a role of being a pastor have little or most likely no access to any sort of training.

The idea is we take training to them so that they can be equipped to be able to plant churches and raise up disciples.

And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question, our theme today is going to be Missions and Sovereign Grace. Our email address here, if you have any question regarding that, is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

Please include at least your first name and the city and state where you reside and the country where you reside if you live outside of the USA, and we hope to hear from you no matter where you live and no matter what you believe.

You don't even need to be a Christian, by the way, to send an email with a question to Iron Sharpens Iron. We would welcome your participation on the show, whether you are a Christian, an atheist, an Evangelical, a Roman Catholic, a Swedenborgianist, anybody that is out there listening who cares to ask a question, feel free to do so at chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

And before we even go into the theme, Missions and Sovereign Grace, and learning more about reaching and teaching international ministries, tell us something about your own personal testimony.

Well, Chris, I was raised in central Pennsylvania, up in the metropolis of Pottsville, raised in a Christian home, attended actually an American Baptist church, and back in the late 60s, early 70s, a man came to that church who actually, he preached the gospel, he preached it faithfully, and I'll be honest, I'm one of those who cannot tell you the date or the hour when I was actually converted, and to be honest with you, for a number of years that bothered me.

I would go to these conferences and men would say, if you don't know the actual day or the hour, if it's not written in the front cover of your Bible, you're probably not a Christian, that sort of thing, until I actually sat under some sound preaching of the word and realized that God had miraculously saved me when I was in my teens.

I would probably say I was probably 14 at the time, but somewhere in that stretch of my life I was converted. I grew up in the home of a World War II Marine who was a school teacher, and I pursued that for a while to be an accounting teacher, as my father was, but also just that pastor under whom I sat had placed a love for the scriptures into me, well God did through him, and a desire to study his word and to know it better.

And so...

Was that John Thornberry?

No, no it wasn't.

Because he was also pastoring in an American Baptist church for years.

Yeah, he was.

He was up in, what, outside Lewisbury in, what was it, W, can't think of it right now.

Yeah, you're right. Yeah.

But no, this was a man by the name of Carl Hand. He was a good man, took me aside, worked with me. I remember taking, he took me into his study one day in his parsonage, and I think he pulled down A .T. Robertson's word pictures and some other books and was just showing me that the word of God was not just something to sit on your shelf, it wasn't just something to read, but it was something to study.

And that had an effect on me, and I'm grateful for it.

Sovereign Grace, Human Inability, and the Meaning of Fairness

Not that this was going to be the heart of our discussion, but I think a lot of things come hand in hand with what the topic is, missions in sovereign grace. You said something about the belief that there are fundamentalists out there who teach that if you don't know the day and the hour, or at least the date of your salvation, you're probably not saved.

I don't know this for certain, but I wonder if that kind of thinking developed out of the truth that there are many false conversions and people who claim to have come to Christ have a very lackadaisical attitude about that whole thing, because they're just being told, hey, if you say this prayer, you will become born again and you'll never have to worry about going to hell, just recite this.

And you yourself, I'm sure, have gone to some kind of evangelistic meetings, whether it's the Billy Graham Crusades or other things, where you see people online going forward to allegedly receive Christ for salvation, and they don't look like they are any more eager or urgent than people just waiting online at the DMV.

I think you're right. I think a lot of it is just an emphasis on decisionalism, and if you need to know the day you made that decision. Again, it's very man-centered, it's not an emphasis on the Spirit of God working inside of a person.

And again, with the whole thrust being on man, what he does, the day you made the decision, I just think that's really a big push behind that date, hour, write it in your Bible kind of thing.

Okay, we've been speaking about, or I've been mentioning at least, the term sovereign grace in regard to missions. Some people may be tuning in for the very first time, may have just discovered this program today.

In fact, I just recently heard from somebody from Wisconsin who just discovered my show for the first time and began listening. But you never know who's going to be hearing this program, who may not even understand what we're talking about in regard to sovereign grace.

What exactly, in summary, is that?

Well, sovereign grace is basically the words of Jonah when he came up on the shore saying, salvation is of the Lord. I would not be here, if it were not for God's grace moving me, I would never have sought Him in the first place.

There's something about the biblical references to a person being dead in sin. There's a limit to what dead people can do. There's a very high limit, and I don't mean to be grotesque, but if I were to go to a funeral parlor and walk up to the casket, both of my parents have passed away, to walk up to either of them and say, hey, get up, or hey, have a meal, they're not going to respond because they're dead.

What they need to be able to respond is life, and the only thing that imparts life to enable someone to embrace Christ and embrace the gospel is the grace of God first moving in.

A person.

Yes.

I would say, unfortunately, that the majority of Christendom today believes that man has within themselves the innate ability, prior to being born again, to savingly trust in and believe in Christ in such a way that pleases God and actually brings that person to conversion, whereas the scriptures are clear that man cannot please God in the flesh.

So if believing in Him is pleasing to Him, how could He possibly do that while He is still dead in His trespasses and sins?

Yeah.

I mean, you look at Psalm 14, which Paul quotes in Romans 3, and that is, if I can paraphrase it, God looked down through the corridors of time to see who would choose Him, who would choose to pursue Him, and the answer is no, not one.

You look at the analogies that are used in the scripture for salvation, I just mentioned one, being dead and needing to have new life, regeneration. I have some friends who have adopted children. In not one of those cases did the child say, I choose you to adopt me.

It was the parent who chose the child. You think of being freed from slavery, being redeemed, redemption. I don't know of slaves who say, hey, I choose to have you redeem me. It's the Redeemer who redeems the slaves.

And that's what we mean by sovereign grace. It's God's sovereign will and choice to call sinners into His kingdom.

Now the retort to that by those who object to what we believe is very often that in your system of theology, meaning us and the others who call themselves either sovereign grace Christians, Calvinists, theologically reformed Christians, whatever label they so choose to use, they will say, your idea of God is that He makes men into robots.

Well, we don't believe that at all. In fact, one Roman Catholic hurled that same accusation against me once. And I said, well define, what do you mean by robot? What does that mean? Well, if you can't freely choose or reject Christ to either be saved or to go to hell, then you are a robot.

And I said, oh, that's interesting. That's your definition of a robot. Do people sin in heaven? No, of course not. So you're saying they're incapable of sinning in heaven?

Yes.

So is your highest goal in life to go to heaven? Yes, it is. Then your highest goal in life is to be a robot for eternity then, right? He goes, what are you talking about? You just said that the inability to either believe or reject Christ is the definition of free will, which is a core teaching in your religion or ideology.

Well, if you can't freely choose to reject Christ in heaven, that must mean you're a robot.

You've lost your freedom.

Yeah, exactly.

And so we do believe men make choices and make decisions all the time.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

In fact, if it were not for God's, to use our term of the day, sovereign grace, man has already made his choice. Men have made their choice in Adam, and every man has ratified it ever since. People are doing what they have willfully chosen to do, and that is they are going their own way.

Like sheep, they've all gone astray. So yeah, I think sometimes people who have an objection to sovereign grace, I think their starting point is in the wrong place. And what I mean by that is they often start picturing humanity as being basically neutral.

And as a friend of mine said, we were just in Ecuador teaching a module on systematic theology, and my one friend, a co-pastor who was teaching, made the statement, election does not send anybody to hell.

Election does not hurt anyone. I thought it was a profound statement, because basically most people think, well, there are those people out there who, they want to choose God, they want to choose Christ, but if they're not elect, they can't.

And it's just a faulty starting point. The starting point is every man is rushing away from God with his fingers in his ears, not wanting to hear a thing, and it's just sovereign grace that reaches down and, the gives him life.

I think if we start with the basic premise, which the Bible meets us with, and that is, man is not basically good, nor is man basically neutral. Man is deceived, man is in sin, man is blind, and apart from God's regenerating grace, man would never choose him.

Right.

They somehow think it's an injustice that God would leave some in their own sins, where they deserve to be in hell anyway, and rescue some while leaving others behind.

Yeah, injustice, or the word you often hear is the word fair.

Right.

They'll say it's not fair.

And I don't mind when a person says that, if the person's being genuine, but my response is twofold. Number one, what would be fair would be for God to just allow everyone to perish. We've all chosen that, that's our plight apart from his grace, so fairness would be rejection of the entire race for our sin, our willful disobedience, and the only thing that I can say that has ever happened that even borders on not being fair, was God the Father pouring his wrath on his innocent son, so that sinful people could have life.

So if you want to talk about not fair, the only thing that comes close to not being fair is the fact that God the Son willfully granted, but absorbed the penalty of our sin. That's the only thing that's not fair.

Yeah, the other two alternatives outside of the doctrines of grace are not even fair anyway in regard to a human understanding of fairness. If you go to the extreme of universalism, why is it fair that the godly missionary who lived a life of obedience, obviously not in perfection because we all sin, but lived a notably and demonstrably godly life, sacrificed much to help people in foreign lands, perhaps in impoverished nations, perhaps this person even gave up wealth and so on, and comfort to live in the jungles and so on, and this person perishes and winds up in the same heaven with Adolf Hitler.

You have that as the true full-blown universalism, or you have those even that would include fundamentalists and many evangelicals who admit, no, there are people that will perish in hell and spend an eternity in hell for rejecting Christ.

Well, how is it fair that there are people who have lived for thousands of years in nations where there was no gospel, and even today you don't have people living on an equal playing field, you have a child being brought up in a Muslim home in the Middle East that may be killed if he were to convert to Christianity, compared to the children of Christian parents or even a pastor and his wife having a child where the child is instructed from his infancy in the ways of God.

How is that fair that they both have the command to believe in Christ in order to receive the eternal life?

Yeah, when one is significantly advantaged over another, yeah. I think also we also have to deal with the fact that we are fallen creatures, and even our concept of fairness is going to be worked. The only concept of fairness that we can come up with is one that's got to be informed by God's word, and that's what we seek to do.

Reaching and Teaching in Ecuador, Brazil, Panama, Haiti, and Mongolia

So, tell us about some of the work that you have done with Reaching and Teaching Ministries, international ministries, some of the specific countries, and some of what you have witnessed there and what you have seen God doing in these various places.

Wow, that could take a bit.

Well, we have about 90 minutes. We have actually more than 90 minutes.

Oh, well, I can do that. Over the past year and a half since I joined the staff of Reaching and Teaching, I have traveled to northern Ecuador four times. I've been to northern Brazil twice. I've been to Panama.

This coming Sunday, I'm actually going to Haiti. I just came back from Ecuador last week, and then after returning from Haiti, be going back to northern Brazil. What we do is we have a training program that we've put together.

When I say we, our organization was founded by Dr. David Sills. Dr. Sills was a missionary in Ecuador for a number of years, returned to the States. He's a professor of missiology at Southern Seminary, and he is the one who has put together pretty well the whole training program, thankfully.

What we do is we have a nine-module program where over the course of three years, we'll make three trips a year to a certain location where men who are currently serving in pastoral ministry or people who are aspiring to a leadership sort of role will come in and will be instructed.

We'll do one week of intensive teaching. We call it hard head and hands. It's not just academic teaching, though that's a component, but for pastoral leadership, we'll deal with spiritual disciplines.

We'll deal with just ministry issues with which they're facing as well as the academic teaching. As I said, I've personally been on a number of these trips teaching some of the different modules, whether it's serving the Old Testament, serving the New Testament, Christian doctrine, hermeneutics, and on and on the modules go.

One of the things that overwhelms me is just the fact that once you leave the shores of the United States, there are, let's just say it's a huge minority of pastors who have ever had access to any sort of training.

When we were down in Ecuador back in September, I remember specifically asking some of the men who were attending the training how much training have they ever had, and usually they would say none, and they've been pastoring five years, eight years, ten years without having ever been exposed to the scriptures.

So it's frustrating at one level, and it's very, I don't want to sound selfish, but it's very rewarding at another level because just to be able to go and provide what we take for granted. People can tune in and listen to this radio show.

They can go online and take courses for free on seminary level classes right now. But places where either because of the language barrier or just because they don't have adequate internet access or something like that, they have no access.

In fact, I would say that's the one word that drives us, and that is just simply the word.

Access.

Here you've got Bible colleges, you have seminaries, you have books, you have resources. We are so ridiculously rich from the standpoint of having access to education to serve in a pastoral role or a leadership role.

Once you leave the States, in fact, about two years ago I was on the Gospel Coalition website and I saw a statistic which is what probably had the biggest impact on me. They put this statement there that said outside the United States, 85 of the world's 2 .2 million evangelical churches are being led by men with little or no training, which means out of every 20 churches you walk in, three of them will be pastored by someone who has had some semblance of training.

It's just overwhelming and it's just, no pun intended, but it's foreign to us here. We don't realize what it's like once we leave our shores.

Yeah, there's an element of Christianity that you have witnessed and been confronted by that has an exaggerated and even unbiblical concept of the perpiscuity of Scripture. They will think that we don't need training and lofty teachers and all these kinds of things because the Word of God is sufficient.

Now, obviously, we believe in the sufficiency of Scripture, but that Scripture itself says that you should not let anyone be a teacher. Obviously, there is a high role that a teacher has even in this inerrant word that we believe is easy enough to understand in regard to the primary things regarding salvation and so on.

Yeah, true.

Now, a lot of places where I've been, actually, the experience has been very positive in that they, number one, have not had training, but number two, they're very hungry for it. They don't have the attitude of, well, we don't need teachers, we have Scripture.

They have the attitude of, come teach us, we don't have a clue. In fact, the first international training trip I'd ever made a couple of years ago was with a different organization before I joined Reaching and Teaching.

I was in Mongolia, and there was a gentleman there. This was a poignant moment for me. There's a gentleman at the end of the week. I had taught a module on Genesis 1 through 11, just establishing basic worldview, but a man with whom I had traveled, a missionary, he had taught a module on hermeneutics.

At the end of the week, this man stood up in a debriefing session. This is all through interpreters, because I don't speak Mongolian, they don't speak English. This gentleman, and by the way, this man, he was converted in a Mongolian prison.

You wouldn't mess with this guy, okay? But he was speaking during the debriefing, and the person whispering to us what he was saying, all of a sudden he said, he just said, when he gets back to his church on Sunday, he must apologize.

And we're looking, and he said, why? And then he said, he learned this week, he has not been teaching his people what the Bible says. He's been teaching his ideas, and then going to the scriptures to try to find verses that seem to support it.

And my first thought was, plenty of that goes on in the States. But seriously, just that impact from seeing, wait a minute, I need to go to the scriptures, I need to read, I need to interpret, and then apply.

Observe, apply, or interpret, apply, not just get your ideas and then go to the scriptures first. And now, there's a congregation somewhere in the nation of Mongolia, week by week, who's being fed from the scriptures, where prior to that they weren't.

They were just hearing a man's ideas.

Amazing. And this book that we call the Bible, which is really a collection of books, has been called by the Apostle Paul, the unsearchable riches of scripture. And therefore, we should not take lightly the fact that seasoned men of God should be those that open up the scriptures on a regular basis to the flock and shepherd over them.

So this is a very important thing, which is why even the scriptures themselves warn against laying hands on a novice and exalting a new believer, a new convert to the position of a teacher or elder and so on.

So overseas, this is even more flagrantly disobeyed from what I understand.

It's a huge problem.

Like I said, you ask these men, how long have you been a pastor? Five years, seven years, ten years. How much training have you had?

None.

And then the next question sometimes will be, well, then why are you the pastor? And I don't mean that in a negative way, like slamming the person.

I'm just curious.

Answers you'll get would be something along the lines of, I was the oldest. I was the first one in my village to come to Christ. In my secular position, I was a leader in the community, so I automatically became the leader in a church.

And so many of these men, I don't question their heart at all, but they end up serving a pastoral role, not knowing whether they've ever even been called into that role. They just get thrust into it, and it's almost like a default position.

They're serving in this role saying, I don't know. All I know is I'm it, and I don't know what I'm doing. Please help me.

Right.

Well, this is a totally different issue, but I think there is some overlap. I have heard when I've had discussions with black female Christians in ministerial positions of leadership and pastoral roles, even with the titles of bishop and things like that, and when I have questioned some of them as to how they can possibly believe they are appropriate candidates for those offices, when the Apostle Paul is very clear that a woman is not the teacher, have authority over the man, very often you will hear, well, the men just ain't doing it.

The men aren't rising up to this role, and without the women grabbing hold of the reins and getting things done, very often they would just not occur and so on. Now, I'm not justifying that these women have taken those positions, want to be careful as not to be too overly harsh about it either, but it's still a violation of what the Word teaches.

But what you were saying seems to be almost the same scenario where you have, well, nobody else is doing it.

Yeah, exactly.

It's just, you're it.

They just point at me and they say, well, you're the guy who's going to lead us because you're a leader, or you're the guy who's going to be leading us because you were the first one to come to Christ in our village, or something like that.

So, you know, you're right. And a lot of those cases, we had one, again, when I was in Mongolia, there was a woman in the training, and I had asked the man about that, and he said, yeah, yeah, she's not a pastor, she's not pretending to be a pastor, she wants to learn more scriptures.

And we found out more. This is a fascinating story, Chris. This woman, and I hope you don't mind my saying this, I'm going to be honest, this woman had planted three churches by accident. It's funny. Her husband is an unbeliever, and she was shopping in this one area where she'd go to shop, and she just couldn't stop talking about Jesus.

And people were coming up and asking her questions. They were being converted, 10, 15, 20. And finally, like a church, but she said, I cannot be the leader here. I'm not qualified. So somebody would be raised up, kind of take over, and the husband, who was an unbeliever, you need to stop shopping there.

You need to go shop someplace else. So she went to a different part of the city and kept talking about Jesus and people coming to faith. Three different times this happened. And she came to the training saying, look, I'm not a pastor.

I don't want to be a pastor. I'm not qualified to be a pastor, but I want to learn the scriptures so I can minister better. Particularly, she had a passion to reach out to ladies, and she just wanted to be better equipped in the scriptures.

And there's nothing wrong with that at all.

Absolutely not.

The Bible really commands that the older women teach the younger.

Absolutely.

In fact, a number of places, we have women who attend the training. Now, we do have a module on homiletics where it's preaching-centered. There, the ladies don't participate.

That's who we are.

That's a part of what we do. But we have a lot of women who will come in and sit in the training because they minister to women or because they minister to children, and they want the children to grow.

If I have the moment, let me….

Well, in fact, if you have the story, let's go to a break right now. It is the half-hour mark for commercial.

Absolutely.

So just remember where you left off, and we'll pick up as soon as we return. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Dean Birch and more on our topic for today, Reaching and Teaching International Ministries, Missions in Sovereign Grace.

Don't go away. God bless.

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a Reformed Baptist Church, and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts. We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the apostles' priority, it must not be ours either. We believe, by God's grace, that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man, and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship. You can call us at 508 -528 -5750. That's 508 -528 -5750. Or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our TV program entitled Resting in Grace.

You can find us at ProvidenceBaptistChurchMA .org. That's ProvidenceBaptistChurchMA .org. Or even on sermonaudio .com. Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Tired of bop store Christianity? Of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert? Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship? And how about the preaching?

Perhaps you've begun to think that in-depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island. Well, there's good news. Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word.

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Questions on Missionary Aviation and Contact Information

And if you just tuned us in, our guest today is Dean Birch of Reaching and Teaching International Ministries. And for some reason, whenever I think of or whenever I hear his name, Dean Birch, I think of two different separate organizations.

One is the John Birch Society.

That's my uncle.

And one is the Dean Birjohn Society, which is a King James only group.

It's not a relative.

Let's combine them and form the Dean Birch Society where people must use the King James only and be libertarian and anti-communist. But anyway, in fact, somebody told me something very funny about the Dean Birjohn Society, which is a King James only fraternal organization.

You must be a Baptist to be in the Dean Birjohn Society. But Dean Birjohn was an Anglican. So Dean Birjohn could not join the Dean Birjohn Society.

Who needs consistency?

Right.

And our email address, if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own on missions and sovereign grace, is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. That's C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

And please use your first name at least and give us your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA. We do have a listener in Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin, Jordan, who asks, as someone who is looking into missionary aviation, do you have any suggestions as to how to begin?

Are there any organizations that should be avoided? Missionary aviation. I'm not really sure what he means by that.

Right away, the two organizations that come to mind right away are MAF, Mission Aviation Fellowship, who has done incredible work down in South and Central America, South America in particular.

Is that like flying missionaries?

Yeah, absolutely.

And taking supplies and removing. They've done wonderful things. I mean, you think back to the whole Nate Saint,.

Missions aviation.

MAF now.

And Jim Elliott.

Yes, exactly, that whole, the Ecuador Five. MAF. Now, they're being squeezed out of some of the South American countries who are cracking down on some of those things. JARS, the Wickliffe's organization, which is aviation-centered, is another good one.

Beyond that, I actually have a connection or two I could look into. So if Jordan would be willing, I could maybe look in and find some further information in e-mail if you wouldn't mind you sharing an e-mail address with me.

Sure. I have a feeling that Jordan would not mind that. And, of course, you could give your contact information as well. I know that the website is reachingendteaching .org, and that's end spelled out.