AD Robles Appearance on A Couple Thoughts Podcast- Social Justice and the Church

If you didn't know, I was on a podcast recently called A Couple Thoughts Podcast with a lovely couple and they wanted to talk about social justice and all the things that I've been talking about a lot online.

And so they gave me permission to put this on my YouTube channel. So enjoy. And I wanted to do a video actually responding to some comments of pushback against what was said in this podcast.

And I did appreciate the pushback that I got. It seemed to be very well thought out. And you know,

I'm glad to get pushback like that. For two reasons. One, I want to make sure that I'm being as clear as I can possibly be.

And so if there's anything that's unclear and people are misunderstanding what I say, I want to know about it. And the other thing is, maybe

I'm wrong about what I say. And so I'll respond to a number of points of pushback on this podcast, but enjoy this.

And if you like it, go ahead and get over to iTunes and subscribe to this couple's podcast. It's called

A Couple Thoughts. And I hope you enjoy it. I remember thinking to myself, what is a white person to do?

I feel so bad for white people because whatever way they go, they're doing it wrong.

Hello and welcome to A Couple Thoughts. We are a couple who have thoughts.

Yeah, we do. And then my name, and then my name is, and then my name is

Chris. And also then my name would be Natalie. Would be

Natalie. And then it would be Natalie, but in reality, it's. And welcome to iTunes.

Hey, what up iTunes? So this is our first episode on iTunes. If you've recently discovered us, then you might be like, what are you guys talking about?

First four episodes were on SoundCloud, but because I was trying to figure out how it all works to get on iTunes, and we were trying to just test out if people even want to listen to us.

Right. Looks like some people do. Yeah, well, people got excited we were going to go on iTunes. They said it's much easier to listen that way.

So hey, anything to, you know. So we did it. Yeah. Episode five, first official one on iTunes, and from now on, we'll be here exclusively on iTunes.

How awesome. And what a wonderful episode to have. First one on iTunes. But we'll get into that.

What are you drinking? Hey, what were you drinking? So we previously recorded a special guest that we're going to talk about in a minute.

And it was very exciting. And while we had the interview with him, I was drinking decaf coffee in a

Hans Zimmer mug I got when I saw Hans Zimmer live, one of the greatest concerts I've ever seen or heard.

It was pretty awesome. I too was drinking decaf in a Stranger Things mug. That tells you several things about us.

Here's what this tells you. One, we're parents. That's why we're drinking decaf at whatever it was, like 9 .30

at night or whatever. Two, Stranger Things, it's a good show. Good show.

Hans Zimmer? Awesome. Hans Zimmer's great. So the second thing it tells you is, I was going to say we're nerds, but I don't think liking

Hans Zimmer is nerdy enough. Stranger Things maybe. I think going to a Hans Zimmer concert is pretty nerdy. And knowing all the songs before they even start.

Like, oh, this is the Dark Knight theme, or oh, Inception Encore, or. That's true.

The Wonder Woman theme and stuff. Oh yeah. Now, Stranger Things, I'm sure you've got a lot of fans out there. Yeah. I know you're nodding your head like, that's me.

That's right. This is for you. I liked Season 1, but it wasn't until Season 2 when

I was like, okay, I'm officially a fan. Yes. But I've heard the opposite of a few other people. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, no,

I definitely fangirled out by the time we got to Season 2. It was, I'm on the train. I'm looking at a poster of ours right now.

Check it out. It's such a cool poster. Anyway, it's a cool mug too. Yeah, cool mug. Hans Zimmer mug's pretty darn cool.

Hans Zimmer does such films as Anything Christopher Nolan, Almost Anything, and Lion King, and we already talked about them on our music podcast.

We did. Episode 4. I know. I feel like - No, 3. Episode 3. Three of our intros have still been about music. It's like, okay, we got to move on,

Chris. Guess what, guys? We like music. And movies. And shows. And TV shows. Did you know that, guys?

Have you noticed? I'll tell you what we also like is God. We do like God. He's pretty cool. He's very cool. And -

Oh, you just turned it spiritual. I did. I was about to add something else that's - I just thought -

I just wanted to tell the audience something that I did since the last time we did our podcast. Okay, go.

Guess what, you guys? If we weren't - Okay. So there's - I think - I forget the difference between dweeb and nerd, but to me, nerd is a compliment, right?

Well, my nerdom has officially peaked because - Oh, right. I officially played -

Does it count as Dungeons and Dragons? I think it does, technically. What do you call it?

Was it RPG? What is it called? Role -playing? Role -playing game. Yeah. RPG. I played an RPG, you guys.

Which isn't really surprising. I think what's more surprising is that I never had before. Most people are probably more like, wait, you haven't done this before?

But I did it. I was really tired and I really sucked at it, but I'm going to come back with a

Vengeance and be even better next time. So just - I wore my cloak -

He did wear a cloak. ... that you made. That shows us how nerdy we are. I came dressed as my character.

My character name was Mad Mardigan. If you know where that's from, then you're my new best friend.

That's right. Spoiler, it's from Willow. Amazing movie. My name is Nova Dawn.

Directed by Ron Howard. Which is - Soundtrack by James Horner. My cheesy name that I have used for various nerdy things.

Nerdy things. Anyway, I just thought you guys, just have that visual. There we are. In this very room where we make this podcast.

Very room. The very room. The room where all the magic happens. And we got recruited by a friend of mine named

Ben, who is probably going to be a future guest. Yeah. If he ever gets his schedule figured out.

And he's a really good DM. He's laughing right now. If you guys know what a DM is, then - He's a great DM. Welcome to -

He made his own story. He's a writer, and he's going to talk about writing. But yeah, he made his own story, and he's a good

DM. He is. And a good storyteller. It was really fun. Yeah. And he's probably listening to this, and laughing, and smiling, and -

Shout out to Ben. Shout out to Ben. But anyway, sorry.

I took us on a train. It was a good train. It was a good train. But let's get back. We'll get back on the other track. Okay. Before we get back on the track -

Oh, which track? Okay. Our child is cute. Oh my gosh. Like today? Oh, geez.

Wow. Wow. Wow. She's just amazing. She's a beautiful, beautiful little being.

So beautiful. She went to the park today. We played with bubbles. Bubble, bubble.

That's what she says. Yeah. Babu? Babu. So cute. We could just do a whole podcast on that, and I'm sure everyone would love to hear that.

Who wouldn't get bored by that? An hour and a half of us talking about our child. You know that's what you guys want to hear. This is why you're here.

We could easily fill that hour and a half. Sorry, I sound a little congested.

As you will tell, I will sound very different suddenly when we cut to the interview. No, I didn't get miraculously healed in a matter of seconds.

It's just we record on two different days. But anyway, so sorry for the stupid, no -sounding typos.

To all my allergy sufferers out there, I'm feeling it. I'm with you. So back to God.

Sorry. Yeah. That was a good train. Let's hitch our wagon to that caboose. What's that phrase?

What the heck are you talking about? We're going back to God, which is better than... What's the caboose?

Well, I merged trucks and trains together and said, hitch my wagon to that caboose.

It didn't make sense. It's fine. It didn't work. It's late. That's true. Continue.

Again, it's late. God, what now? So God, back to the issue at hand.

Recently, we've been thinking about... It's hard not to think about it.

All you gotta do is go on Twitter and it's in your face. Jeez, anywhere. These social justice issues, if you will, pertaining to things like race, gender, intersectionality.

Intersectionality. That's going to be another podcast for another day. And et cetera. This sort of social justice narrative that we're seeing everywhere being talked about.

So recently, we've seen it kind of entering the church and even in leadership in kind of a concerning way to us.

Like, hey, of course, social issues in general are important and Christians need to be involved.

But there's certain verbiage and what do you mean by that sort of things that we need to think about and talk about and clarify because we believe that social justice is very different than biblical justice.

It's all about terminology here. I think, yeah, of course, Christians need to be involved in social justice but we have to really define what that means and it has to be biblically based, not emotionally or politically or anything like that.

And we're seeing the negative effects of it happening in the church and in relationships between Christians.

So anyways, with all this in mind, our special guest has lots of thoughts and feelings on it but I'll let

Natalie tell you how she found him and why we got him on this particular podcast.

I'm sure many of you have heard of the MLK50 Conference and the ERLC Conference.

I might have that acronym wrong. A really, really good friend of mine who I love was listening to them so I wanted to listen to them.

But I found after listening to just a few of the speakers, I mean, honestly, I didn't listen to every speaker so I can't tell you what every single person said but I listened to three of them.

And I felt a little more confused, I think, than I did before.

And I was hoping for clarity because once I discovered that it was talking a lot about the social justice warrior things,

I thought, well, at least I'll have a better understanding. And I didn't. It definitely felt more divisive.

It felt more confusing. It seemed to use a lot of phrases that sound really great and have a lot of the same words.

But once the sentence is over, you're like, what did you just say? I don't understand.

Before that, I remember when we've talked about it, the social justice issues, it's like, okay,

I feel like we're screaming for a lot of different changes and things we're wanting and we're being told a lot of ways we're supposed to feel.

But then I've also noticed that there hasn't been a lot of suggestions on what we're actually supposed to do. So I thought, okay, well, this conference will hopefully clarify, well, what can we do?

Of course, first we need to clarify, like, okay, what is the issue?

Is this something that is really happening? Do we really need to be worrying about a lot of the,

I guess, the racial tensions and the reconciliations and the, I can't remember the other

Asians. But when you first hear about - Reparations is another one.

Reparations is another one. So first I went, as a,

Chris is Hispanic, I'm a white girl, in case you're finding us for the first time and you don't know, based on our voices. So I'm a white chick.

Hola, como estas? Hi, guys. That's my white girl voice.

I'm a white girl pretending to do a white girl voice. What does that say about me? You're totally culturally appropriating. I'm from Southern California, man, come on.

California. California. Anyway, here we go again, we're not gonna get back into that. All that to say, it definitely made me feel more -

I don't even know how to explain it. Here's what it made me feel like I needed to do. I wanted to find my

African American brothers and sisters and I wanted to just talk. I was like, I need to talk about what's being said here because a lot of what was being said in the conference

I personally do not think was helpful. I do think it was divisive. And I haven't personally seen the issues they're talking about actually happening.

I'm sure - Okay, let me - Okay, this is what we need to say first. There are still racists and there are still prejudiced people.

That is not at all what this debate is, at all. I'm talking about white evangelical churches as a whole.

Are they racist? The simple answer according to some of the speakers at the conference is yes.

I mean, honestly. If they just were given a yes or no on that,

I think they'd have to say yes. That's what I'm saying I don't think is happening. I don't think there's widespread racist churches as a whole.

Are there some out there? Probably. But I don't think this is a widespread issue. So anyway, that's the broad one

I'm saying. So on my search, I just wanted someone to respond to this.

It was anyone else talking about what was being said at the conference. You know, almost like I need to debrief with someone.

So I found Daryl Harrison, who's awesome. And their podcast is great, but we talk about that later.

But who I found and was really excited to find was Adam Robles. I found him on YouTube.

And he actually would do responses to the talks at the

MLK50 and the ERLC conference. And he also just talked about the social justice warriors and social justice and biblical justice.

And he just was very eloquent. He was very gracious, I thought. Smart. Smart.

Very smart. Knows his word. And his videos just really kind of helped me and Chris as we were processing these things and listening to what's being said on this issue.

So I reached out to him on Facebook and asked if he would want to be a guest on our podcast.

And he agreed. And we were really excited about that. I was really glad to find him. He talks about this stuff way better than we can.

So we thought, hey, we've been thinking about this. It's been on our minds. But let's just get him to come talk about it because he talks about it way better than we do.

That's very true. He's much more eloquent than we are. He makes a lot of good points.

Yeah, exactly. He's one of those people where you're listening to him or you're reading something about somebody.

And then you're like, yes, those are the words I was looking to say. Or like, those are my feelings.

I agree with that. But now I know how to say it. Yeah, he said it so much better. Or now you're saying it really well. So instead of us having a podcast of us bumbling through as I'm bumbling right now, we bring someone else.

We bumble through the interview too. But luckily, he makes a lot of sense. Yeah, we bumble through the interview. You'll see us.

Yeah, anyways. You'll hear us. See, I can't even talk. So without further ado, let's get to Adam Robles and the interview we had with him.

And we'll check back with you guys right after that. Enjoy. Cue transition sound.

So with no further ado, here's Adam Robles. We're very excited and honored to have you.

So thank you so much for taking time to talk to us. Well, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Sure. So we just wanted to start off with just a brief, like, tell us a little bit about yourself so our audience can get to know you a bit.

And also, what made you decide to start a YouTube channel? Yeah, well,

I am an LGBT person. I'm an elder in a very small church in Vermont. And I moved to Vermont probably about,

I don't know, man, how many years ago? Probably four years ago, four or five years ago from New York City. I lived there for a while as well.

Oh, sweet. And yeah, yeah, it was pretty awesome. And then what got me into YouTube is really the issue that we're going to probably talk about today.

I've been kind of looking into it since Donald Trump was elected president. And I didn't really think about making a

YouTube. I was kind of looking at it from a secular perspective, if that makes sense. And I was kind of checking out sort of what the world was saying about Trump's election and all that.

And then I didn't really want to make a YouTube channel until I started realizing that this was also in the church. And so that's the whole reason

I started the YouTube channel. And that's why I'm still doing it. Awesome. Well, that answered my next one.

Because I was going to ask how you got into the topic. But that was perfect. Yeah, yeah. Well, us who are in the church, it's been on our minds.

It's been on Chris and I's minds. It's been coming up a whole lot more in conversation with friends, online comments and different things.

You kind of can spark conversations on there, too. So like you said, I think we saw it already happening from a secular perspective.

But hearing it a whole lot more now in the church, it's something we thought, hey, let's tackle this.

OK, so pertaining to social justice, or as, let's say, the media is saying those issues are, do you think these are issues that the church should be worried about?

Yeah, absolutely. I think that it's very clear that this is important in sort of the general conversation in our culture in general.

And so, you know, any issue that's kind of important in general in our world, we need to at least have some kind of a biblical answer for.

So, yes, I do think that these are issues that the church should be thinking about and addressing.

But we need to be addressing them from a very distinctly Christian biblical foundation.

Excellent. So what would you say the difference between biblical and social justice is?

Yeah, that's a great question. And it kind of gets a little dicey here because I think that sometimes people use these terms, you know, kind of in a kind of squishy way where you can't really pin down what they mean.

But I'll say what I mean when I mean social justice. What I mean is sort of this idea that there are really like two basic classes in society.

And we've got sort of the overclass, which is the oppressor class, essentially. And then we've got the underclass, which is sort of the victim class, sort of a narrative that you see, you know, all over the place.

So, you know, we've got, you know, oppressors in our society, which are the males. And then we've got the victim class, which is the females.

We've got the oppressors, which are the white people. And then we've got the victims, rather, that are the people of color.

The oppressors are the rich. The victims are the poor. So you see this kind of playing itself out in a variety of different ways.

And that's what I call this sort of social justice narrative. And biblical justice is very different.

Biblical justice says that, you know, you don't have partiality to the rich or the poor.

In fact, there's a verse that I really love because, you know, God is smart, you know.

He knew what to say in the Bible, right? So there's a verse in Exodus that says, don't follow the crowd in doing wrong.

He says, when you give testimony in a lawsuit, do not pervert justice by siding with the crowd.

Do not show favoritism to a poor person in a lawsuit. And then later he says that you don't show partiality to the poor, but also don't show favoritism to the great.

And you think, well, why would somebody show favoritism to the great? Well, obviously, you know, if somebody is rich and they have influence and they're powerful, you could see why someone might show favoritism to someone like that because, you know, they can kind of get position and power as well.

But you'd ask, why would somebody show favoritism to the poor? They have no influence.

They have no power. You know, God's smart. He knows that this victim class potentially could potentially be a source of power.

And I think we see that in our politics today. So that's what I, when I say social justice, that's what

I'm talking about. And when I say biblical justice, I'm talking about very clear biblical commandments.

The Ten Commandments, essentially. Yeah. Very cool. I didn't want to think about it that way, but the victim class being something

God had already thought about. I thought that was interesting too.

Sorry to interrupt you, but I thought that was interesting too because this is straight out of Leviticus. Like, this is old school stuff.

And it's like, well, why would somebody show favoritism to the poor in old school

Bible times? Well, it's the same situation as what's going on today. There's nothing new under the sun, you know? So are you seeing this sort of victim mentality starting to creep into the church more and more?

Yeah, you know, I don't want to pretend like I'm a historian.

I don't know when it started. But yeah, I mean, I've started to certainly notice it more and more recently.

So, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Where there's sort of this, you know, kind of, there's two groups and there's one group that's sort of, you know, oppressing the other.

And you're like, well, how do you prove that? Well, they don't really know. It's just sort of like, well, obviously there's majority one group and minority the other.

So obviously there's oppression. That's problematic in my opinion.

Oh, yeah. I wondered, too, is I think a lot of the language around the social justice movement are things like, well, justice.

And then you hear words like, you know, righteous, standing up for the oppressed. These sound like biblical concepts.

So to me, no wonder I think that the church is almost, maybe a little too quickly before taking a step back and asking, you know, almost what you said, like, well, what exactly does this mean?

Like, what are you asking for? And as Chris and I talked about this, I think, you know, you can get discouraged listening to some of the talks at the

MLK 50 and stuff just thinking, I'm hearing a lot of, I guess maybe some of the accusations, but I haven't quite heard the answer.

What exactly is being asked of us to do? Maybe, I guess, the white evangelicals in general.

What is it that, you know, you want us to do? But I've wondered if maybe that's one reason that the church, for one, has kind of felt like, oh,

I guess we need to maybe jump on the wagon, as you could say, because in the language it almost does sound like a righteous movement.

Yeah, it does. I think there's definitely sort of a certain kind of language, like you said, that just sounds really nice.

I mean, it sounds like loving, and it sounds, you know, just nice, really.

And I think that, this is just my opinion. I can't prove this, and I don't want to say

I know people's hearts, but I do think that sometimes Christians have sort of a little bit of a fatigue of being on sort of the side of every issue that doesn't sound very loving.

And what I mean by that is, like, in the culture, you know, we know the

Bible has very clear sexual ethics and things like that, and in the culture, it sounds unloving to say to a homosexual, hey, you can't be with your partner.

You can't marry your partner. Like, that sounds so unloving. And, you know, nobody wants to sound like that.

I get that. And, you know, and there's so many issues like that where we kind of have to be ogres, at least that's how we feel like it.

That's a really good point. I mean, I can see that, how a lot of Christians can finally be like, oh, finally we can, you know, band together with the world, then we won't be looked down upon.

We can arm and arm, but they forget, you know? I don't think they think of it that way, but they think of it like, you know, like, okay, this is an issue of justice that we're all on board with, we can all agree on, and in a certain way, they're right.

I do think that we all want to stand together against racism, but, you know, we have to define that, you know, very, you know, carefully and biblically because, you know, one example

I like to use because it's such a clear example is, you know, everyone says, well, we're all against murder, and like, well, not really because we all define murder very differently.

So, yeah, we can team up with the world in some ways when they're saying they're against some murders, but, like, let's not pretend like we all define that word the same.

We don't. You know? And so, I don't know. That's just an opinion of mine. I don't know if that's really the case, but I think that's part of it, you know?

Yeah. I've heard some people talk about white guilt, in a sense, where they'll even say, like, in the

Bible, the sons were taking the sins of the fathers, and like, so now, we as white people,

I'm not white, obviously, but, as a white person would say, we as white people have to repent for the sins of our ancestors in order to bring reconciliation of the races, and then they, you know, they quote the

Bible in certain ways where it sounds like, even to me, I'm like, huh, that does kind of make sense, but,

I saw a video of yours talking about this, can you go into that a little bit, your thoughts on that? Yeah, no,

I definitely can, and so, one thing that I think is helpful is that there is a certain kind of guilt that a culture or a society kind of has communally, and I think that that's a real concept, but the problem is that that guilt is not something that we can sort of deal with like with restitution like in a criminal or civil case.

That kind of a guilt, so like the societal guilt, the communal guilt that we all have for certain sins, that's something that God holds us accountable for.

a good example of that would be in Acts, when Peter, rather, says that all of the, all of Israel is essentially guilty for crucifying

Christ, and he's right about that, but you couldn't then go and say, okay, and therefore we're going to go to the judge and you're all going to get the penalty for murder.

Like that, it doesn't work that way, so when it comes to what we do with each other, there's no guilt that you can get because of the sins of your fathers, but when it comes to God, he does have sort of a generational sort of curse that he does give to certain societies for their sins, like he does in the

Old Testament with, you know, some of the sins of the people of Israel, you know, bowing down to Baal and stuff like that.

That's different. That's before God, not really sort of a, you know, person -to -person civil -type thing.

like, if it came to, like, a restitution, like some people talk about reparations or things like that, that wouldn't be biblical, but there is sort of a communal guilt that is real that we should acknowledge, but it's not something that we, you know, we would deal with, you know, kind of judicially right now, if that makes sense.

Mm -hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's almost like we couldn't deal with it really in this lifetime. It's kind of only

God's job to judge it almost in his timeline. Well, yeah, sort of, right, but we could deal with it in this lifetime, but it's not gonna look like, like, like the social justice people want it to.

So, the way that we, we deal with it in this lifetime is, you know, forgiveness.

And reconciliation and stuff like that. so just, you know, just, I mean, it sounds kind of like basic and stupid, but, but that is how we deal with it now.

You know, we, you know, we don't have any, there's no biblical recourse to sort of say, okay, well, your grandfather did this to my grandfather, therefore you owe me.

There's nothing like that. Right. What I always say to people who talk about things like reparations is like, all right, well, well, do

I owe myself money? Like, I don't understand. you know, I'm pretty sure that my ancestors were enslaved and I'm pretty sure that other ancestors of mine enslaved them.

Right. You have to pay yourself. Right, exactly. I don't know.

It's just, it's just kind of silly. But, but yeah, I mean, that's why God's law doesn't address that stuff.

It'd just be too silly. Yeah. I remember when we were younger, we would do things like come together and pray and repent, like, as a group for past sins of generations prior.

And then, you know, fast forward 10, 20 years later and like, you're in another service and they want to do the same thing and you're thinking, but I already did that.

Like, do I have to do it again? Like, when does it end? Yeah. When, when, when is it done? When do we, like, okay, we're all forgiven.

We're all moved on. And now can we, like, move on? But it seems like it just keeps coming up where like, how many times, like, how many times do we have to do this for it to be over?

Well, I think when we were younger too, we didn't, we didn't necessarily understand when it met. And, and then we were listening to Daryl Harrison, who

I think I saw, we had a common Facebook friend was Daryl Harrison. I was like, that's cool. And he talks about the sin by proxy and, and forgiveness by proxy.

And I thought, oh, I wish I had, I had heard of that back then to maybe, you know, kind of help us understand exactly what, what sins we can repent for and which ones we can't.

That's a great point. And actually, to me, to answer one of your questions is, you know, where does this end? Well, it doesn't end.

That's, that's, that's the point. It never ends. And there's always going to be someone that has some ethnic background doing some kind of sin to someone from another ethnic background.

And so if you had to repent of that every single time, that would never end. And there would be never -ending strife and never -ending conflict.

And unfortunately, a lot of where this stuff is foundationally, you develop these ideas of the oppressor class and the victim class.

You know, that's what they want. They actually want never -ending conflict. That's the whole point of the ideology.

And I know that this is a touchy thing and people don't like when you use this word, but, but foundationally, a lot of these ideas are, are

Marxist ideas. It's just that simple. And so, the whole idea of Marxism is to cause chaos.

And so, and in that way, to change the social order all the way from the foundations to the top.

And that's the point. And so, yeah, to answer your question, you know, Chris, it doesn't end. It just never ends.

That's the point. And then as far as, go ahead. I was going to say, I heard you just today actually talk about cultural

Marxism and how people didn't want you to use that word. Can you just explain real fast to our listeners what cultural

Marxism is and why, let's say, other people don't like you to use that term? Well, I have some opinions on that.

But what I'll say is that, what I have, what I'll say is this, so cultural Marxism, there's a lot of interesting stuff on YouTube about that, that concept.

And some of it's good and some of it's not. But basically, all it means is it's a, it's an application of Karl Marx's ideology, philosophy.

It's an application of his philosophy to different areas in, cultural areas.

So, Marx's philosophy is more about economics and about, and about, like, economic classes and things like that.

And, that still definitely applies today to a lot of these people. But, but, not all people would agree with, with Marx's, you know, economic policy, but other things.

And so, this idea of the oppressor class and the victim class, that's straight out of Karl Marx's idea.

You know, basically, the poor people were the victims and the rich people, the people who own stuff, were the oppressors.

And so, that was the whole, that was the whole, kind of, you know, concept that he had. And so, so, cultural

Marxism is just a way of saying you're applying Karl Marx's ideas to different areas besides economics.

Anyway, and so, people don't like that because, because, you know, they, and here's why I think they don't like it.

They don't, they're not self -consciously Marxists. So, a lot of these people, they wouldn't say, oh yeah, yeah,

I'm a Marxist, no problem. Like, like nobody would, well, I'm not going to say nobody, but most people wouldn't say that.

Yeah, yeah. But, that doesn't change the fact that a lot of the foundations of the ideas that they, you know, express do come from that tradition.

And so, people get really frustrated because they're like, well, I'm not a Marxist. I've never even read Karl Marx. Like, that might be true, but, it doesn't change the fact that that's where the ideas come from.

And so, I can understand being frustrated about that, but it doesn't make it not true.

You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Like, before how I was raised was, and I'm from Southern California, so maybe it was easier to do, where every, it was like every race was together.

I had friends of all different colors, nationalities, whatever. But now, saying that I didn't know to skin color is now a racist thing to say.

So, whereas before, it was like friendships happened so much more naturally, it's almost like now we're hyper aware of I'm a white girl, you're a black girl, you're a

Hispanic girl, where it never, it's almost like the opposite effect of what I think we're wanting to happen is what's happening.

And then you, yeah, you just start playing funny mind games, like, oh no, am I talking to this black person just so they think

I like them, but I actually do like them, and so like, no, what do I do?

Yeah, and it just seems like it's causing these extra things that I don't think were there before as a result of almost shining this light on this issue in this way.

I, yeah, that's very interesting that you say that. One of the very first videos I did, probably like, maybe like my sixth or seventh video that I ever did,

I still had like a really bad mic and a bad camera, so like, this wasn't, this wasn't like the greatest video, but I thought the content was really good.

I reviewed an article from Nine Marks, which I like, so don't hear me saying that I don't like NineMarks .com.

I like it, but this article was really bad, and it was talking about why white churches are hard for black people, and I remember in two consecutive paragraphs, like two sentences apart, this guy says, this pastor, he says, white churches are hard for black people because when you have, when you're friends with a white person as a black man, and you have like, if they call you their black friend, then you're like, it's like a tokenism, like you're their token black friend.

and then the very next paragraph, two sentences later, he says, white churches are hard for black people because, you know, we don't want to be just your friend.

That's colorblindness. That's ignorance. And I'm like, and I remember thinking to myself, what is a white person to do?

Like, I feel so bad for white people because they're kind of, whatever way they go, they're doing it wrong.

So it's either your black friend, well, that's tokenism, or it's just my friend. And it's like, well, you're ignoring my ethnicity.

Look, the reality is, I'm willing to say that most run -of -the -mill people aren't thinking in these terms.

You know what I mean? Right. Yeah. But, unfortunately, there's a lot of very vocal people that insist on thinking in these terms.

And it's very difficult. And I agree with you, Natalie, that it's, it's very divisive.

It wasn't always like this. Right. I don't remember going to churches and ever really thinking about this stuff.

you know, I know that when I tell people that, sometimes they say, well, yeah, it's just because you're white -privileged. I'm not white.

You know what I mean? Like, I don't even know what you're talking about. But the point is, like, it hasn't always been this way.

And it certainly seems to be becoming more this way. And that's troubling to me.

And I don't think that's that surprising when we're kind of using these categories that come from cultural

Marxism. You know what I mean? That's the point of this. Yeah. Well, one thing I was going to read to you, actually, and get your opinion on kind of goes with this.

So a friend of mine posted on Facebook a few months ago. She's a good friend of mine.

She's a leader in her church. She says this. I'd like to hear from some of my non -white friends about this topic.

Would you attend, would you attend a majority -white church? Why or why not? What can majority -white churches do better to be a safe place for non -white congregants?

And then she has a disclaimer. I do not want comments from my white friends on this post. I hear from y 'all a lot, and I'd really like to learn something new.

To be honest, if I did see that on my Facebook wall, I would not respond. But, but I will say this.

I would say that probably, for starters, if it was for me, the first thing that you should do is not ask questions like that, because I don't want to get to be in a church that's that, sort of, willing to be divisive in that way.

I think, I think the question is flawed from the start, because it assumes that white churches are not a safe space for people of color, right?

So the very question itself, if you answer it, you're kind of admitting that white churches aren't safe for these people.

And I just don't think that that is the case in general. I would not say that it's always not the case, because I'm sure that there are some churches out there.

In fact, I had a phone call with a guy who told me about a church that he went to, and I believe him. I believe this is true.

That was, you know, very, you know, let's just be honest, prejudice towards him.

You know what I mean? As a black man. And I believe him. I believe that that exists. I believe that's actually a real thing.

But I just don't, I just don't believe that it's a rampant problem. And I definitely don't think it is in her church. I mean, we went to her church for many years, and it's a great church.

Yeah. I think, in my opinion, I think it's just because her church is in a very white area of the country.

Yeah. And she just feels, maybe, I don't know, but maybe she just feels like, oh no, there's not enough black people here.

What are we doing wrong? When all it is is just a demographic thing. Well, that's exactly it. Because here's the thing, and you're exactly right, by the way.

That is what she's thinking. She's thinking, wow, our demographics are not proportionally where they should be, whatever that means.

I don't know what that means. But, in her opinion, they aren't. And so there must be some kind of prejudice or racism.

Because if there wasn't, then the demographics would be different. That is the cultural Marxist idea.

It says that there should be this proportional representation, and it kind of eliminates any other factors, like maybe you're just in a white area, or maybe there's other reasons why black people aren't coming that has nothing to do with how safe your space is.

It could be lots of different things, but the assumption is there's some kind of prejudice, some kind of oppression.

It has to be. And I just don't think that that's the case in most instances.

Until she kind of has different assumptions and different presuppositions about things, she's never going to be satisfied.

Because think about it, what is the right proportion? I don't know. You know what

I mean? I don't know the answer to that. I've asked that question a bunch, and I've never gotten the answer to it. Because there is no answer.

That's why I've never gotten an answer. But yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's just the whole question is kind of framed incorrectly,

I think. Yeah, and when she talks about would you attend a majority white church, why or why not, that just kind of feels like if someone that isn't white wouldn't attend a majority white church, you'd think for any reason that'd be kind of racist, wouldn't it?

Well, yeah, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I guess I'm trying to think of a good reason.

I can't think of a good reason. I mean, if the gospel is there and you're learning to like, which is another, actually it's a great transition.

So one thing, another video I heard of yours, you talk about the subject of how people that aren't white were talking about how they felt they didn't have this feeling of camaraderie, of unity, because they didn't have people of their own race in their church.

And then you kind of went to the point of how our Christianity should be almost more important than our race, that Christianity identity should be more important than that.

Can you explain that more? Yeah, definitely. Well, I think our identity in Christ is absolutely more important and should be more foundational than our ethnic makeup.

Let me say this. I'm Puerto Rican and I like being Puerto Rican. I like my family.

I love our culture. I love the food. I love everything about being Puerto Rican, right? And I enjoy spending time with other

Puerto Ricans. I have no problem with that at all. And I think that there's everything good about enjoying different cultures, right?

That being said, we call each other in the church, we call each other brothers and sisters for a reason, because that is the very deep bond that we have with each other.

And lots of people will say that the church is so amazing because it brings people together that normally in the world wouldn't come together.

Like, there are people in my own church. We have a small church. But there are people in my own church that I wouldn't have been friends with before I became a

Christian. It's just, they're not my kind of people. You know what I mean? But they become your kind of people.

Like my own blood brother, my actual brother from the same mom and dad, we're really close.

And even though there might be things about him that I don't like or that we butt heads, we still are super close because that's just how

God created this whole thing. And so, yeah, our identity in Christ, I mean, this is a verse that I don't know how this is up for debate, but lately it's under debate where Paul says in Colossians 3, he says,

Here there is not Greek or Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian and skivvy and slave and free, but Christ is all and in all.

And that is so important and profound. Like, Paul, again,

God was smart when he wrote the Bible. He was smart because he knows that these ethnic tensions have a tendency of bringing people apart.

And so he's like, Look, I created all these ethnicities. This is all good. The diversity is fantastic.

I love that. That was all my idea. But at the same time, when you're at the table, when you're in communion with the church, all that stuff, it doesn't matter.

There's even other sections of the Bible where he says that if you're going to follow

Christ, if you're going to love Christ, you're going to hate your mother. You're going to hate your children.

Like, in comparison to your love for Christ and your unity in Christ, everything else looks like hate.

Yeah. And that's hard. I mean, you guys are parents, right? That's hard for me to understand.

Yeah. Because I have two sons myself, and I just don't understand how it would be that.

Like, I have to love Christ that much more than I love my own children. But it's three.

I mean, he says it. You know what I mean? And so that's not my idea.

That's God's idea. So this unity I have with my brothers in Christ within the church, if it's not more foundational than your skin color and your ethnicity, that's something you need to go to God with.

I'm not saying that that's easy to deal with. I'm not saying that. Just get over it. I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that's something that you really need to take a good look in the mirror and ask

God, why is that? Yeah. That's a good challenge, too. You had to bring my kid into it.

It's a good challenge for me, too. I'm preaching to myself, you know? I know, right? Like, as soon as you said more than your kid,

I'm like, oh, my gosh. Talking with others in the church about this, and it's kind of interesting you brought that up because we've kind of had this challenge with a lot of areas because our whole podcast, we kind of bring up topics that are usually kind of at the forefront of what people are debating and talking about within the church as well.

So I think sometimes we could be accused of trying to ruffle feathers, and for us, it's more like we want to get to the root of the issues and for one, also just learn how to discuss the issues well with one another.

But so sometimes we get, like when we talk about these things or they become important to us, you kind of get this backlash of just, you guys, you're not just listening.

You're not just trying to understand the other side point of view. Now, with this particular issue,

I did because it matters. I always say it matters to people who matter to me. So I did want to be,

I did actually tread in more lightly than maybe I'm more prone to where I'd just be like, eh, no. So I did, you know, like I said earlier, try to see this from every angle.

But I think in one of your videos, you did talk about how the narrative is more, like, listen, you need to listen to your brothers and sisters.

You need to listen to your brothers and sisters of color. But what they really mean is listen and believe.

Could you talk a little bit more about how, about that? Yeah, definitely. And that's an accusation that I've, people have levied against me before.

And even, actually, especially before I did my YouTube channel, like I would talk about this stuff with people in person and online.

And oftentimes, what I would get in response to my challenges is, hey, you know, you just,

I believe my brothers and sisters in Christ. I believe my black and brown brothers and sisters in Christ.

And if you, you know, and I've also heard that, you know, hey, if you don't believe that, that's kind of a form of racism in itself.

And my response to that is interesting because, well, I think it's interesting anyway.

But the thing is, like, I actually agree with them. Like, you should listen. And you should take people seriously.

So, you know, if somebody tells you that they experienced racism and you're a white person,

I don't think there's anything wrong with believing them. You know, like, yeah, I don't assume everyone that says something to me is lying.

In fact, I assume, at least I try to assume that they're telling the truth. Exactly. So, yeah, there's everything good about that.

And I want to acknowledge that because I don't think there's that many people out there that just completely disregard black people when they say that there's racism out there.

But maybe there might be some. So if there are some listening, don't do that, you know? Yeah. But with all that being said, that does not mean that we just listen to people and then go ahead and execute justice based on what they've told us.

So, in other words, if somebody tells us that something happened, we can't then just assume that they're 100 % correct and then go do something about it.

Because the Bible tells us that in order to admit a charge against an elder or even in the criminal situation, you need to have two or more witnesses.

And the Proverbs, you know, which is, the Book of Proverbs is really just an application of the Ten Commandments, essentially, in different situations.

The Proverbs tells us that the one who states his case first seems right until the other comes and examines him.

And so the point is, if we're going to go and say, okay, well, we're going to take everyone's testimony about this institutional racism or whatever it is, the church is racist, or whatever, and we're going to do something about it, you have to actually prove it first.

We have to actually confirm that these things are true. And lately, we've actually been gifted some cool examples of this because,

I don't know if you guys have seen it, but there's been a video released where this woman was pulled over by a police officer, and she did a

Facebook Live video after she was pulled over saying how it was a racist encounter and saying how cops threatened her and things like that.

And so the police station got enough inquiries about it because, obviously, people were really upset about it, that they just released the officer's camera footage of what happened, the whole thing.

And, of course, I shouldn't say of course, but the police officer was polite, did not threaten her in any way, was pulling her over because she was going 15 miles over the speed limit, things like that.

And so, okay, that does not mean that sometimes people aren't racially profiled.

It does not mean that sometimes people aren't threatened. But this time it wasn't. So that's why we have to, before we ruin these officers' lives, before we ruin these people's lives, let's verify it first.

And that's a biblical thing. That's not my standard. That's a biblical standard. So the Bible says, no, you don't listen and believe when it comes to actually doing something about a crime or an injustice.

That's what's always annoying about these clickbait videos and headlines because it's like, I'm sure there's actual real times that it happens out there.

Of course. And we need to deal with those and not have this mess of just fake ones here and there just to get your clicks.

It's like, get rid of all those and then we can actually deal with the actual racism and actual oppression that we can help them instead of just reading through all this.

You're so right. And the problem is when you cry wolf so many times and you never prove it, then when it really does happen, people are going to be like, oh,

I don't care because it's probably fake anyway. Exactly. This is the problem because there is actually racism out there.

Yeah. And all of this stuff, it gives cover to those people. You know what I mean? Uh -huh. Yeah. Along those lines of, when we say to each other, if a person of color says to me, you can't understand, you've never been in my shoes,

I would 100 % agree and say that I can't. I can't understand what it's like to be a person of color.

But I feel like we're never asking the other side, like, well, I can't know exactly what it's like to be Hispanic or Puerto Rican, but you might not understand what it's like maybe to be white.

So it's like, it's got to be more than just that. And also, sometimes we need each other's different perspective to help us come together, not for it to be the thing that puts a block between us, almost.

And someone was saying, made a good point, maybe you can elaborate on it too, about, you know, with the victim mentality, how we can sometimes push people away because we don't think they'll understand us.

And it could be true. Maybe they haven't gone through the same types of issues that we have, but sometimes you almost need someone with that different perspective to help get you out of it or to help bring you to a different place instead of just surrounding ourselves with a bunch of people who've suffered the same thing.

No, that's right on. I completely agree with that. And I think, you know, that whole idea of like, you know, you won't understand because you've never gone through, you know, what

I've gone through. Like, honestly, that's, it's a little bit of a selfish idea because, you know, first of all, like, nobody understands what it's like to be anybody.

Obviously. But that doesn't mean that there's not wisdom to be had from someone else.

And, you know, honestly, like, I think that it really sort of discounts what God does in the church.

And let me give you a little bit more insight into sort of why I even got into this. One of the very first things that I read that I was just like, oh, what is this?

Was an article by Jamar Tisby. And he runs the website

The Black Collective. Anyway, it was the day after Trump got elected.

And maybe it wasn't the day after, but it was right after he got elected. And basically, he makes the argument in his, well, not the argument, but he states in this article that he was, he didn't feel safe while worshiping in his church the

Sunday after Trump got elected because I guess he went to a predominantly white church.

So he didn't feel safe with all of these white people that, in his opinion, voted for Trump. And yeah, that's what

I said. And so to me, it's like, who's in charge here?

God or you? God has you in this church. And presumably, you're not saying they're unbelievers. Maybe he was saying that.

I don't know. But presumably, you're not saying that. And so what exactly are you saying that these people are potentially going to beat you up?

What exactly do you think is going to happen? God has you at this church, and this church has, your pastor is there to preach the word to you.

God's going to be speaking to you on Sunday. You're going to be in communion with these people. You're going to be worshiping him on Sunday.

God knows what you need more than you know what you need. And so to say, well,

I don't feel safe with it, I mean, it's just really a bizarre kind of twisting of things.

Like, well, I know better. I know that my church is not safe. And how do I know that? Well, they're all white there. That's just a weird kind of, well, it is,

I agree. I'll let you take the heat for that one. But I do agree with that.

And the funny part at the time, I mean, I did not support

Trump. I didn't vote at all. I didn't recommend anyone to vote. But that whole thing, after he was elected,

I just saw so much derangement. Totally, totally. What's going on here?

Anyway, but yeah, I agree with you very much that sometimes someone who hasn't experienced what you've experienced might be a good person to talk to.

I don't know, because it'll maybe help you think about things a different way. I don't know, but it's just sort of a selfish, not selfish, maybe arrogant position.

I'm not really sure what I'd call it, but it's just a weird position to have. It's like somebody who doesn't want help. They want to stay in that victimhood.

You know, like, you can't help me. I just want to be here. Just feel sorry for me and be guilty.

I don't know. It just has that kind of tone. Yeah, it does. It definitely does. And I'm not sure really where that comes from, because that's not really something that you'll find anywhere in the

Bible, you know? Yeah. So what would you recommend to if people are listening and maybe they feel like they're put in this situation where maybe their church is kind of really taking on this social justice warrior mantra, but we definitely don't want it to be something that's like,

I'm going to leave the church now or anything like that, but how to, I guess, discuss it.

Like, what's a good starting point, do you think? Right. No, that's a very good question because, you know, sometimes, and I don't want to criticize people that I don't really know, but sometimes

I'll get comments on my YouTube videos or even like just personal comments in my inbox or something, and people will say something like, you know, so -and -so is obviously a heretic, like someone

I was criticizing, you know, and we got to just disassociate from him and things like that, and I don't believe that.

I don't believe that any of the people that I've criticized directly are unbelievers. I don't think that they're, they have a bad intention or anything like that.

I don't want anyone to think that that's what I believe because it's not. But what I would do if I was in a church that was kind of going down this road is, first of all,

I would commit to being long -suffering, and so right up front, I would say,

I'm going to put up with as much as I possibly can before I even consider leaving a church, right?

Yeah, yeah. And that's advice that I would give to almost anybody, you know, because I actually, when

I was early on in my Christian faith, I did leave a church too quickly in my opinion, and I regret it, but so anyway, that's the first thing

I do, and then the second thing I do is just be very open and honest with my concerns and my questions and my understanding of Scripture and just ask questions to the people that are promoting this stuff.

I think questions is huge. Yeah. Just ask questions and have them think through it because, you know, if they're generally looking for truth,

I think it'll come out. If everyone just questions everything they're thinking about, then the truth will come, you know? Mm -hmm.

Very much so. I agree, and questions are not really that threatening, and they'll get people talking, and the bottom line, though, is that we just have to have our

Bibles completely open and willing to go wherever we need to go to find out what's really true, and we have to make sure that we're defining things biblically, that we're considering what the

Bible says about things. It's like the same thing with the word love, right?

We all love that word because it says God is love in the Bible, right? But we know that the world has kind of a skewed definition of what love is, and so we always go to our

Bibles to define love, right? Right. That's what we do, but we just instinctively do that. Well, we've got to do the same thing with justice.

We have to do the same thing with justice because the world can skew that word as well, and so Bibles open, lots of humility, commit to being long -suffering, and that's really it.

I know that some people that are in the social justice movement are probably going to take it too far.

Some of the people that I criticized online, I mean, they were saying some pretty harsh things about people who would not go with them on this, and that can make it tough, and I don't really want to make a blanket sort of advice for people without knowing the specifics, but I would try to put up with as much as I could, you know?

Yeah. Good advice. Yeah, any final thoughts on where people can find you, your YouTube, if you have a

Twitter, all that good stuff? Yeah, definitely. I mean, if you look up A .D.

Robles, R -O -B -L -E -S, you'll find me on YouTube. I don't know the actual address of the page, but A .D.

Robles, I think I'm the only one out there. You are. It's pretty easy to find you. Yeah, exactly, and that's my name on Facebook as well, and then on Twitter, I just started using

Twitter a couple weeks ago, and so I'm A .D. Robles there as well, but the handle is R -U -T -L -A -N -D.

Okay. But I would also, you mentioned Daryl Harrison in the Just Thinking podcast.

Yeah. I would also recommend that very, very much. You know, I tend to joke around a little bit on my stuff, but he's very serious, which

I like, and he's also, one thing that I've been trying to emulate is him, and I'm not as successful as he is, but he's very focused on the

Bible, super focused on the Bible, which I love. And I'm trying to do that a little bit more, but he actually just put out an article just like tonight that I agree with all of it, but somehow

I'm still convicted by it. Like, you know what I mean? It's just so good. I saw it.

I think I just, like literally before this interview when I was putting my baby to bed, I saw it and saved it for later. I saw that very article.

I'm like, yep, gonna read that later. It's great. It's really good, and so I would recommend him as well, and you know, a lot of guys are talking about this now, which

I'm very grateful for because this does need attention. It's not the only issue, but it is an important one, in my opinion.

Yeah, yeah. And yeah, definitely, I mean, like you said, since Trump was elected, it seemed to just blow up as far as like everything is about race, and everything is about this intersectionality, and everything is about all this social justice, and it's like bombarding everywhere, and then it started creeping into the church, and that's what kind of got us concerned, and then we found you, and then et cetera.

Here we are. Yeah, definitely. No, I'm glad you did, and I'm glad to be talking about this.

Yeah. Cool. We are too. Thank you so much. Well, one final thing. Two questions.

One, your favorite movie, and then recommend a movie that maybe people haven't heard of or seen. Yeah, so, well,

I mean, I can't pick one movie. I love the Star Wars movies. Okay. As a whole, my favorite is probably just the original

Star Wars. That's probably my favorite. Nice. So many good memories with that, and then let's see.

A movie that people might not have seen. That's a good question. Maybe, you know, one movie

I really like, and I'm not really sure why I like it, but it's called Lost in Translation, and it has

Bill Murray and Scarlett Johansson before she was popular. Oh, yeah. I've heard about the movie.

Yeah. I actually haven't seen that one, but it is everywhere and here and there, almost like an indie film type feel.

Yeah, it's like a weirdo indie film. Yeah, and it's like, I don't really even know how to describe what it's about, but it's just really good.

I'd recommend people watch it. Yeah, I think that's probably it.

Cool. Well, that's great. Yeah, we love movies, so it's kind of one of our favorite questions we always have to ask everybody, but thank you so much, and you were our first official special guest, so we want to just give you a special shout out.

We're really glad it was you, and it was awesome talking to you, and I hope everyone, go check out his videos, and welcome to Twitter, by the way.

I waited forever as well, but all this stuff got me to. Yeah, well,

I used to tweet a lot, and then I deleted my account, and I hadn't been on there for like five years or so, maybe more, and so...

Drew was like, whoa, what is all this stuff? Because it gets crazy on there. Yeah, that's very true.

But yeah, I had a great time, and honestly, if we ever want to chat again, I'd love to, even if it's not on the podcast, but I'd love to.

It was a great time. See what we tell you guys. He puts everything so much better than we can.

He's pretty great. Did you guys enjoy that? Hope you guys enjoyed that. Definitely go check out his videos, and even though a lot of them are talking specifically to the

MLK50, a lot of cool points come out as he's talking about it, so even if you're not interested in the conference, you know when you're talking about something specific and ideas come out, it's really a lot of good wisdom in there, man.

Lots of good wisdom nuggets. Wisdom nuggets. Wisdom nuggets, yeah. And if you guys have any questions for him or us, send him our way, and he made it very clear that he'd like to come back or would be willing to come back anyway, so if you want to do a follow -up responding to any of your guys' questions or responses to him, that might be fun.

That'd be awesome. We'd love to have him back and talk to him some more. That'll be up to you guys. If you've been thinking about these issues, if you disagree with us, that's fine too.

We would love to tackle them or we'll give them to Adam to tackle. So follow us on Twitter or contact us on Twitter.

I'm at nadalite. I love how you say that. And I'm at thatcherouscloud.

I have to do it in my answering machine voice. Answering machine. Remember answering machines?

My voicemail voice. Voicemail. Kids, answering machines were these things that used to...

Remember the little tapes? I remember the little tapes. The little tapes were so cool. There were little tapes, you guys.

It's a thing. Ask your parents. You'd record and... So thank you so much for listening, guys. I hope this was informative and we sure had a good time with the interview and we'll see you guys next week.