Catholic Spin: Purgatory and Indulgences

Teen be diligent to present yourself approved to God. A worker who does not need to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth. Alpha and Omega ministries presents the dividing line radio broadcast.

The Apostle Peter commanded all Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us. Yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence. Your host is dr. James white director of Alpha and Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White, you can call now by dialing 602 2 7 4 13 60. That's 602 2 7 4 1360 or if you're out of the Metro Phoenix dialing area, it's 1 8 8 8 5 5 0 13 60. That's 1 triple 8 5 5 0 13 60 and now with today's topic.

Here's James white.

Justification, Orthodoxy, and the Gospel of Galatians

Well as soon as I got on the Long Island last May I started getting Questions from people about a statement that had been made by Norman Geisler on the Bible and Saman program and those of you who are Just listening heard that statement the program that just played was recorded I believe back in April was replayed about three weeks ago and every time it's replayed my email box gets full of Articles and people writing about the statement that dr. Geisler just made and since it is somewhat relevant to what we're gonna be talking about today I'll go ahead and Make a comment on it and that is the caller was asking about the status of Roman Catholicism and dr Geisler defended his position that Roman Catholicism exists within the pale of orthodoxy because it does not deny any of the fundamental Christian doctrines which means in his own words that the issue of justification and How justification takes place was a reformation issue and cannot be an issue That can be applied in the sense of saying that Roman Catholicism is unorthodox or exists Outside the pale of orthodoxy.

He insisted that forensic justification was not believed by anyone between Paul and Calvin and therefore to focus upon that issue as being an issue that would set someone outside the realm of orthodoxy Is to be unfair with church history and unfair with the terminology.

Of course, I would say that it was the very doctrine of justification Itself that caused Paul to write the book of Galatians and to place those who disagreed with his teaching of justification squarely outside not only the pale of orthodoxy, but outside the kingdom of God and outside of salvation itself because he said that if anyone preaches another gospel other than the one that Paul preached that person is anathema cursed of God and Therefore the question is not what has someone believed in church history?

The question is if we look at the book of Galatians and if we look at the doctrine of the Judaizers as it was taught In the churches in Galatia and then responded to by the Apostle Paul does Roman Catholicism go as far as the Judaizers did or even farther and The only possible answer to that question is they go much farther than the Judaizers ever dreamed of going.

Therefore to say the Roman Catholicism exists within the pale of orthodoxy is to say that the Judaizers in The churches in Galatia exist within the pale of orthodoxy, even though they are anathema now.

Maybe some people would say that I've had Roman Catholic apologists Defend the idea that Popes could be personal heretics and still the Vicar of Christ on earth. So there are stranger things that have happened in the world, I suppose.

But I think if there is any type of consistency to be had the question has to be focused upon Biblical mandate not upon arguments derived from church history or something like that. And the question is does Rome Teach a gospel that would fall under the anathemas of the Apostle Paul well that leads us directly into the topic that I was going to address today had it sitting here right in front of me as I was listening to the Bible Answer Man broadcast.

It's what I brought with me and that was today I wanted to give you two examples from two different religious groups the first from Roman Catholicism. The second from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints about how false religious groups can make the most aberrant false teachings sound good.

Spin, Madison Avenue Techniques, and Catholic Apologists

Merely by the use of what we might call spin Spins the big thing in our society now you can spin anything. The current administration can spin anything at all and try to make it sound like something good.

And I'm afraid we're just simply going to be stuck with that for the for the rest of our lives every following Administrations probably end up doing the same thing. Well when religious groups want to use Madison Avenue techniques and please I think we are consistent at this point we have often berated the use of Madison Avenue techniques by Protestants and Within the the Protestant realm as well.

So when we point that these out that these things happen amongst false religious groups, we're not being inconsistent but when people try to sell a doctrine when apologists go out and attempt to defend and to make Attractive a doctrine that otherwise would be unattractive.

Especially to those are attempting to convert. So when the Roman Catholic apologists like a Karl Keating and James Aiken a Patrick Madrid at Timothy Staples a Scott Hahn or Robert some genus whoever it might be.

When they are seeking to present their beliefs. Don't expect them to present them in such a way that would automatically offend the Protestant ear. Instead you're going to hear these doctrines placed in the most evangelical style of Discussion and phraseology and terminology.

What do I mean? Well, let's look at the subject of purgatory and indulgences. Purgatory and indulgences. Now many even amongst Roman Catholics believe the purgatory and indulgences are not even an issue any longer.

I've talked to many Roman Catholics at Vatican to get rid of all that or something along those lines. But the Roman Catholic apologist well knows That the concept of purgatory not only has been defined by the church Defined within the teachings of the church, but the concept of indulgences has been as well.

It's not something that can simply be dismissed and in point of fact the New Universal Catechism the Catholic Church spends more time talking about indulgences specifically than it does about justifications specifically and Therefore they know that these are doctrines that they need to present but it's the means by which they present it.

Never in church history at least not during the medieval period or up through the Reformation. Did Roman Catholics have to present the concept in the way they do today. They were able to talk if you go back and read books like the book on purgatory published by tan publishers they were able to present purgatory as a terrible horrible place and The visions of various saints that they had had concerning purgatory.

You really couldn't tell any difference between the sufferings and the the horrible pain of purgatory then. The same visions of hell itself the idea of the suffering and torment of the souls and purgatory was very clearly presented.

But that's not going to do too. Well in the modern United States of America, and so therefore how does the Roman Catholic Apologist present it? Well purgatory has become the place of purification. It is that place where love for God is purified and wouldn't you like to be?

Purified before you enter into the presence of God consumed by his love. The idea of suffering in flames of torment has now been changed into the idea where there's this this Anteroom to heaven where the final process and the final purification is made.

Sort of like the the final touch up to the bride before she's seen by the bridegroom in the wedding. And so the idea has now been to change the horrific vision of hell that was so much a part of Roman Catholic Purgatory is so much a part of Roman Catholic piety into this idea that well We need to have the process completed and this is a place where love Consumes the last bit of selfishness that is within us and makes us ready for the vision of God and doesn't that sound a whole?

Lot better than the idea of saying your relatives have gone to a place of torment and you can purchase Indulgences and do various and sundry other things to get them released sooner, so they don't have to suffer so much.

Well, of course, it sounds so much better and it sells so much better. But the question always is what is the actual teaching of the church? There is also this issue of indulgences and all how offensive that is to the Protestant ear.

At least it should be. Sadly, there are many Protestants that don't have the any idea what an indulgence is or where it came from. Nor the fact that it was very important in bringing about the Reformation and Martin Luther's Rejection of the concept of selling God's grace for money.

Which is what was taking place at the time of the Reformation and there are many who feel today. Oh, it's just not really much of an issue until they heard that recently the Pope announced a number of new indulgences and celebration of The year 2000 and people start going indulgences.

I thought that I thought they got rid of that a long time ago. Well, they can't get rid of it. It is a part of the documents of the Roman Catholic Church the councils of the Roman Catholic Church. And the whole idea is tied together.

The idea is there is a place called the Treasury of merit the thesaurus meritorium and Every time a saint dies and they have more merit than they need to enter into the presence of God that extra merit is placed Into the thesaurus meritorium the Treasury of merit.

You also have the merit that comes from Mary. She had all sorts of extra merit and one of the Pope's taught that all Christ had to do was shed one drop of blood and it would be enough to redeem the world.

But since he shed many drops of blood and there's all this excess merit that is placed into the Treasury of merit. So what you have in the Treasury of merit is the excess merit of Christ Mary and the Saints all mixed together.

The very fact that there would be a mixture of such merit should be enough to cause any biblical Christians skin to crawl. But that's part of Roman Catholic theology. But I guess it's not enough to separate Rome from the pale of orthodoxy at least in some folks views.

Yet as it may Indulgences are in essence a withdrawal from the Treasury of merit. They are a transfer of a limited amount of this excess merit from the Treasury of merit to what shall we say? The account of an individual at the time of the Reformation it was being taught that you could buy plenary indulgences in the name of someone who had died that would that would immediately release them from the sufferings of purgatory.

That's not taught anymore, but indulgences are still taught and that is that you can obtain Part of this Treasury of merit. Through the works that you do you say where do they say that? Well, let me read a few things to you.

I have in front of me a document entitled the Apostolic Constitution on the revision of indulgences. Its Latin name is indulgent. Iaram doctrina promulgated by Paul the sixth on January 1st in 1967. I read Chapter 1 indulgences are founded on divine revelation.

The doctrine of indulgences and their practice have been enforced for many centuries in the Catholic Church. They would appear to be solidly founded on divine revelation. Handed down from the Apostles.

This tradition makes progress in the church with the help of the Holy Spirit and as the centuries go by. The church is always advancing towards the plenitude of divine truth until eventually the words of God are fulfilled in her.

Please notice that's what happens when you deny solo scriptura and you have tradition placed upon the same level. If we wish to understand exactly the doctrine of indulgences and its benefits in practice.

We must remember truths which the whole church and lighted by enlightened by God's Word has always believed. These truths have been taught by the bishops who are the successors of the Apostles and by the Roman Pontiff's who as Successors of st. Peter are first and foremost among the bishops.

They have taught these truths by means their pastoral practice as well as in documents setting forth doctrine. They have done it throughout the centuries to this day. Well, what's the first truth that we must understand?

Sins must be expiated. The truth has been divinely revealed that sins are followed by punishments. God's holiness and justice inflict them. Sins must be expiated now. Listen to this. This may be done on this earth through the sorrows Miseries and trials of this life and above all through death.

Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments. This is why the faithful have always been convinced that the paths of evil are strewn with many stumbling blocks.

They bring to those who follow them adversities bitterness and harm now. Did you hear that? Sins must be expiated and how are they expiated? They're expiated through sorrows Miseries and trials of this life on this earth and above all through death and then They are expiated in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments.

Did you notice something the name of Jesus doesn't appear in that paragraph? Why? Well because you need to realize in Roman Catholic theology Jesus's death. Merited grace by which we do good works. The concept of substitutionary atonement.

It's not a part of Roman Catholic theology if that's not enough to separate Rome from pale of Orthodoxy. I'm really not sure what is. The punishments with which we are concerned here are imposed by God's judgment.

Which is just and merciful. The reasons for their imposition are that our souls need to be purified. The holiness of the moral order needs to be strengthened and God's glory must be restored to its full majesty.

Don't be looking for the name of Christ much in here folks because it doesn't appear in Fact every sin upsets the universal order. God and his indescribable wisdom and limitless love has established further every sin does immense harm to the sinner himself and to the community of Men throughout history.

Christians have always believed that sin is not only a breaking of God's law. But that it shows contempt for or disregard of the friendship between God and man. We continue on what does expiation involve?

Well in the second paragraph of this particular discussion we read the following. Remember this is January 1st 1967 folks that's not exactly ancient history and By the way in case you're wondering this particular document is cited over and over and over again in the brand-new universal catechism of the Roman Catholic Church teaching indulgences and that catechism is described by the current Pope John Paul the second as being an authoritative definition of the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church I.

Continue.

The doctrine of purgatory clearly demonstrates that even when the guilt of sin has been taken away Punishment for it or the consequences of it may remain to be expiated or cleansed. Do you hear that? The doctrine of purgatory clearly demonstrates that even when the guilt of sin has been taken away Punishment for it or the consequences of it may remain to be expiated or cleansed.

You see the difference between Rome in the Bible in the Christian faith who bears our sins and their punishment and guilt the Lord Jesus Christ. In Roman Catholicism, you can have the guilt of eternal sin removed.

But the punishment can remain. That's what purgatory is all about. It goes on to say in fact in purgatory the souls of those who died in the charity of God and truly repentant but who had not made satisfaction with adequate penance for their sins and omissions are Cleansed after death with punishments designed to purge away their debt.

The first book I ever wrote was called the fatal flaw and the thesis of the fatal flaw was Roman Catholicism presents a way of salvation outside of the finished work of Jesus Christ and there you have it right there.

In the words of indulge NTRM doctrina. All this is gathered also from the prayers of the liturgy of the Christian people admitted to Holy Communion. Have addressed to God since very ancient times. And so I guess you look at old prayers and overthrow the teaching of Scripture.

Then we have the teaching of the communion of the Saints and Listen to this following in Christ's steps. Those who believe in him have always tried to help one another along the path which leads to the Heavenly Father through prayer the exchange of spiritual goods and penitential expiation.

The more they have been immersed in the fervor of love the more they have imitated Christ in his sufferings. They have carried their crosses to make expiation for their own sins and the sins of others.

They were convinced that they could help their brothers to obtain salvation from God who is the father of mercies. This is the very ancient dogma called the communion of Saints. It means that the life of each individual son of God is joined in Christ and through Christ by a wonderful link to the life of all his other Christian brethren.

The Treasury of Merit, the Communion of Saints, and the Papacy

Next section. The treasury of the church. Someone in the control room wants me to remind you that the phone lines are open, of course. I'm gonna roll at the moment. So if you'd like to get in early you may and listen that way.

But it's gonna be a little while till I take those phone calls. They're big rich. Next sections called the treasury of the church. The treasury of the church is explained like this. We certainly should not think of it as being the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of centuries.

On the contrary the treasury of the church is the infinite value which can never be exhausted which Christ merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the father.

Please notice Rome Supports very strongly the concept of universal atonement. But it's a universal theoretical atonement. It actually doesn't accomplish anything until man actuates it and isn't it sad that so many Protestants today agree with Rome about that.

In Christ the Redeemer himself the satisfactions and merits of his redemption exist and find their efficacy. This treasure includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense.

Unfathomable and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury too are the prayers and good works of all the Saints. All those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and Carried out the mission the father entrusted to them in this way.

They attained their own salvation. And at the same time cooperated in saving their brothers in the unity of the mystical body. Yeah, those Judaizers. They never dreamed of anything like this. Well, what is the consequence of the doctrine of the mystical body?

All who belong to Christ are in possession of his spirit combined to make one church with a cohesion that depends on him. The union of the living and their brethren who have fallen asleep in Christ is not broken.

The church has rather believed through the ages that it gains strength from the sharing of spiritual benefits. Now that they are welcomed in their own country and at home with the Lord through him. With him and in them they intercede unremittingly with the father on our behalf.

Please notice this is talking about dead Saints. They intercede unremittingly with the father on our behalf offering the merit They acquired on earth through Christ Jesus. Do you hear that? This the Saints who have died.

Once they go into heaven. Intercede unremittingly with the father on our behalf. Offering the merit they acquired on earth through Christ Jesus. Do you hear that? I Have one question to ask why? What is the need?

Isn't Christ enough? The answer can only be in Roman Catholicism. No. Then goes on to say offering the merit they acquired on earth through Christ Jesus. The one and only mediator between God and men.

Now there's there's throwing a scripture passage in right after you just ripped it apart. Isn't that fascinating? When they were at God's service and all things in their flesh were completing what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body the church.

Colossians 124 a passage very commonly used by Roman Catholicism out of Context to try to say is something that we can do through our sufferings to add to the work of Christ. For these reasons a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home.

Those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. See there's three places. You're either in heaven. You're on earth or you're in purgatory expiating your sins between them there is to the abundant exchange of all the goods by which divine justice is placated as Expiation is made for all the sins the whole the mystical body.

When was divine justice placated my friend. There's only one answer that from the Bible. And that was on the cross of Calvary and to say there's any place else is simply blasphemous. It isn't Christian.

The church applies the fruits of Christ's redemption. We read in chapter 3. I quote. The church has known these truths ever since it came into existence. I would say that is a gross lie. Goes on to say however.

The belief was not that individual members of the church worked for the remission of their brethren sins by their own merits alone. But that the whole church as a single body united to Christ its head was bringing about satisfaction.

Oh the centrality of the church in Roman Catholic thinking and Oh the blasphemy. Over against the truth of what the church teaches how indulgence is developed from canonical penances. I'm just about done because I have another subject to address.

I may not get to it. I've Spent a little more time on this and I thought. The conviction was present in the church the pastors of the Lord's flock had set the individual free from the vestiges of sin by applying to him the merits of Christ and of the Saints.

I Don't know about you my friend, but I don't want to stand before God Clothed in the righteousness of anybody but Christ. But anyways in the course of the centuries and under the influence the Holy Spirit's continuous inspiration of the people of God.

There goes solo scripture again. This conviction led to the practice of indulgences. It was a progression in the church's doctrine and discipline rather than a change. I Love that it's a it's not a change.

Sure, we can't find any evidence this in the in the early period but it's not a change just a progression. From the roots of Revelation something had grown up a new privilege which was for the benefit of the faithful and the whole church.

I'm sorry. This is a blasphemy against the work of Christ. It is a denial the finished work of Christ and it did not develop from any revelation at all. It is what happens when you deny solo scripture for God's only begotten Son has won a treasure for the militant church.

He has entrusted it to blessed Peter the key bearer of heaven and to his successors who are Christ Vickers on earth. So that they may distribute it to the faithful for their salvation. Do you hear that?

The Pope has control of the treasury of merit through the power of the keys. I Once debated dr. Robert fast EG and Austin on this subject and I pointed out excuse me. But is it not true that the Pope used to give?

Indulgences for people who went and visited the house at Loreto this this silly place that that that actually at that time was believed To have been the house the Virgin Mary that was picked up by angels and brought from Nazareth to Italy.

And if you went and visited yes rich, I'm sorry. If you went and visited this house the Pope would give you indulgences. So here's the Pope using the power of the keys to give you indulgences for visiting a house.

That supposedly was carried by angels from Nazareth to Italy. That's the system people are trying to tell you you need to trust in as the infallible interpreter of the Bible. I See well so the key bearers.

The.

Popes who have the keys even though the Bible says it's Jesus who has the keys and nobody else but anyways. And his successors who are Christ Vickers Christ replacements on earth. They distribute this treasury of merit to the faithful for their salvation.

My friends if you believe that you don't understand what the Bible teaches about salvation. They may apply it with mercy for reasonable causes to all who have repented for and have confessed their sins.

At times they may remit completely and at other times only partially the temporal punishment due to sin in a general as well as in special ways in So far as they judge it to be fitting in the sight of the Lord the merits of the Blessed Mother of God and of all The elect are known to add further to this treasure.

I'm just quoting folks. I'm just quoting One last thing here because we're about out of time. If you're not seated, you might want to sit down for this one under the benefits of indulgences. Moreover the religious practice of indulgences arouses again confidence and hope that we can be fully reconciled with the father.

My friend I have perfect confidence and hope that we can be fully reconciled the father because I have one trust and one Mediator a perfect Savior Christ Jesus if you need something beyond that you don't understand who he is.

But it does not do this in a way which would justify Negligence or of any kind or in the slightest manner less than the effort one has to make to acquire the Dispositions that are needed for full communion with God.

It's all on your back. It's all you. You need these dispositions. While it is true that indulgences are free gifts. They are granted only on fixed conditions for the living as well as for the dead. Free gifts, but they're only granted on certain conditions.

I'd I'd I'd like to be able to buy lots of stuff that way. It's free, but you have to do certain things, right? While it is true that indulgences are free gifts. They are granted only on fixed conditions to living as well as the dead.

To gain indulgences the work prescribed must be done. Can someone help me out here? They're free, but the work must be done. But that is not all the faithful must have the dispositions that are necessary.

These are that they must love God hate sin trust in Christ merits and believe firmly in the great help they obtain from the communion of the Saints. Do you hear that? You see why faith alone is so important.

You see why some of us have a real problem. Because promise keepers dropped faith alone from their statement of faith after running the statement of faith by a group of Catholic theologians. Oh. You're just nitpicking.

No you see why it's important now folks. There's a reason here. But I haven't gotten to the good part yet, and I'm almost at I am out of time. I need to take a break. I have the last Section to read and probably would be good to take some phone calls so that the microphone doesn't melt here.

602 two seven four thirteen sixty if you're in the Phoenix dialing area if you're outside the Phoenix dialing area one Triple eight five five zero thirteen sixty. We'll be right back. I'm back to the dividing line if you manage to make it through the break.

You're one of the brave folks. I Just gotten to the last part that I'm gonna share with you from indulgent. Yaram doctrina here the Apostolic Constitution on the revision of indulgences. There's actually two more parts.

One paragraph that reads in addition we ought not to forget that when they try to gain indulgences the faithful submit with docility to the lawful pastors of the church. Above all they acknowledge the authority of the successor of blessed Peter the key bearer of heaven.

To them the Savior himself entrusted the task of feeding his flock and ruling his church. In other words indulgences help us to remember the Roman Catholic doctrine of the papacy and the idea that the Bishop of Rome is the vicar of Christ and it's through the power of the keys held by the Bishop of Rome that this treasury of merit is made available and Our own salvation can be worked out.

How? All in Roman Catholicism. It's always the same way through the church. The church becomes the one That brings salvation. But this last line. This last line is the one that absolutely is hard to read.

It says the beneficial institution of indulgences therefore does its part in Bringing it about that the church might be presented to Christ without spot or wrinkle but holy and without blemish. Do you hear that Indulgences in Roman Catholic theology, and I'm reading an apostolic Constitution.

It is post Vatican to it is quoted as authoritative by the Catholic Catechism. Which the current Pope says is an authoritative summary of Roman Catholic doctrine. I'm not talking about some theologian someplace.

I'm not talking about somebody who's a crackpot. I'm talking about the official doctrine of the church and according to the official doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church the blasphemous doctrine of indulgences is used to Present the church to Christ without spot or wrinkle but holy and without blemish.

And if that doesn't anger you you don't understand what the New Testament teaches about the work of Christ. You cannot possibly listen to those words and sit back and not realize that what's being said is that this Doctrine is added to the sufficiency of the work of Christ.

Christ work is not sufficient. You have to have these added things and If you're jealous for the truth of God if you're jealous for the gospel. Then you can't possibly sit back and look at this and go.

Oh, well, that really doesn't matter. If Indulgentiarum doctrina does not separate Rome from the pale of orthodoxy then nothing does. There is no such thing as a pale of orthodoxy. It's a pale without a bottom Indulgentiarum doctrina, it's available.

You say I want to know where that is. It's available on the web. I Think and I'm not sure and I don't have my computer with me to go look. But I think we may have put on our web on our website. I'm not sure I'd have to go look.

But I know that it is available. It's pretty easy any search engine you type in indulgentiarum doctrina and aren't too many hits are gonna come up for that one. But it is posted on a number of websites.

It is available in the two-volume paperback Vatican to Which is available at Barnes Noble and Walden's and it's your Catholic bookstore and so on so forth it's available all over the place and You may ask me.

Well, have you told other folks who disagree with you about this subject? They need to read that other Protestants. You better believe I have I. Whenever I encounter anyone who's writing a book on Roman Catholicism I say you need to read indulgentiarum doctrina.

You need to interact with that document. Because if anything in my experience demonstrates the vast difference between the biblical presentation of The work of Christ the concept of grace the whole idea of merit.

It is that that's what you need to look at. It's official. You can't get much more official than that and it's right there. Well, I didn't even get to the other issue on Mormonism. Maybe we'll get to it.

Maybe won't it all depends. It all depends on what our first two callers have to say. They always seem to find their way on to the program and I know that Dennis will give us an indulgence to allow Martin to To sneak ahead of him there for a second.

Hi Martin. Hi James. What's up today?

Well, I'm sitting in my kitchen saying preach it brother.

I.

Say hello to Denny's because he said hello to me last week. Um now as. You know, you probably know that I used to be a Roman Catholic. You know before I came to be a Christian. Now when I got saved. It sort of occurred to me that if you've been going to a doctor for you know 20 odd years and he's been giving you a tablet that hasn't cured you and you have to go outside of that doctor's surgery to Somebody else who will give you the doctor.

They will give you the tablet that does cure you. It kind of says to me. Hold on a minute the doctor even visiting for last 20 years obviously haven't got it, right, you know. And so I've I had to I mean I was one of the first thing that struck me if I had to go outside of the Catholic Church to hear what salvation was.

About it cost of me very very plainly that hold on a second, you know. But these two religious systems cannot be the same up lots of the thing. Oh, well, it's just a minor difference. You know, I mean it isn't.

I mean he can't be well and you know.

I wasn't sure exactly how you're gonna apply that but there's another application that is equally valid and that is if You can Continuously come to Christ, but you still have to go through purgatory. You still have to go through indulgences.

You still have to have the right dispositions. You still have to depend upon the key bearer of heaven, etc Etc. Then Christ is not sufficient to bring about your full salvation either.

Yeah, I mean and also in I've listened to all of your debates with Roman Catholic apologists on an audio tape.

And and you're a brave man.

I mean they present. This isn't my major point. But I'm not that they present a very clinical very almost Christian eyes cleaned up kind of view of Catholicism. But it's mainly biblical that it's mainly Christian however having been inside it for being brought up in it for 20 years.

It what's actually practiced grassroots in churches is very very very Different to what they're standing on the podium actually saying and presenting. It's hugely different. It is full of Mary and Saint and don't be wrong with it.

It is worship. I mean I've done it myself. Oh, yes. Superstition idolatry. Padre Pio meddled holy water and this isn't sort of doll just just a laity. This is actually being supported by the priest. But what I wanted to get to was mood for talking about purgatory as I see I mean one of the major problems.

Which is just one of them one of the major contradictions or fatal flaw if I could use that term Is according to what you when we talk about so far it says you have to suffer for your own sins. However, the contradiction seems to be that you don't have to suffer for if someone buys masses.

Or you can buy an indulgence or the fact that they for example the 17 privilege. You're probably aware of that I don't know if you if your listeners are basically the brown scapula of Our Lady of Mount Carmel.

It's supposed to be our lady is supposed to depend that Descend after your death does pull you out of purgatory, right? Now if you have thought for your sins and you die late on a Friday night. Then and she pulled you out Saturday morning.