Pro-Lifer Suddenly Becomes Pro-Choice

Ethical IVF and the Death of Embryos

We had gone to an IVF clinic in Sandy, I think it was, Sandy or Draper area. And I just wanted to talk to somebody there, but nobody would talk. And we didn't go into the office and bother them or anything, but we waited for them to come in.

And when they came in, somebody was walking in and said, Hey, I'd like to, you know, I asked them if I could talk with them, and they said yeah. And I asked them a couple of questions, and they said, Well, I just work here for doing schedule and things like that, so she didn't really know.

And so I tried to explain it to her a little bit, and they came out. And it looked just like Planned Parenthood, where they come out, and they escorted her in, and it was like, don't talk to her. And that's what I was explaining to you, is like, I didn't think that he would talk.

Because what we had talked about was more of like, right, quote-unquote ethical. But what is ethical? And I would say that there is no ethical IVF, because we didn't even talk about some of those things that would be like gender, right?

You got gender, you have the sex trafficking or child, like, selling genetics. All of those things that would be really awful. We didn't even talk about those. And he doesn't do those things either. What about selective reduction?

Does he do that?

No, he won't do that.

In the womb, selective reduction?

So there's a lot of stuff that he doesn't do, because he doesn't have more morals in life. There's a lot of stuff he doesn't do. He won't send them to do sex stuff. He won't send them to do anything to the embryo.

But we know most of them are, right? Most of them are doing that. So what about those ones where he does the... You'd say, okay, in the womb, selective reduction maybe he doesn't do. But he does do it beforehand with ones that would be not viable, or what he would say not viable in that initial one, right?

The initial...

But they let them phase themselves out. If the ones that aren't doing well, they just kind of let them go.

Yeah, just a little bit.

So they just let them die, yeah.

Like, if they're abnormal and they're not multiplying and doing what they're supposed to do, then they just...

They let them die.

Well, they just kind of let them, because there's nothing they can do.

Let them go, yeah. So that's a question that brings up the grading. Some of them, and this is something I just found out recently, that grading can change. Like, they can become better or worse. And the grading can actually be adjusted.

So grading, like if they look at them and grade them, some of them can be graded at a certain grade scale, yeah, and that can adjust, so they can actually get better or worse.

I haven't seen that.

No?

I haven't seen that.

But they do adjust.

Unless they've frozen them and they refreeze them, sometimes that might damage them a little bit.

Well, if you were frozen and then thawed and then refrozen, it would damage you a little bit too, right?

But they go through the grades and they tell them, we have A, we have B, we have this, any, and so sometimes if they have one like a C, they'll just put it in, because they think it probably won't survive, but it could.

So sometimes they'll put them in. But they let the patient decide. How many do you want? Which ones do you want? And most of them, most of the ones keep coming back and use up all their eggs.

How does he present that to them, as in, like, which ones do you want? Does he let them know, hey, these are babies that are alive and which ones do you want? Or do they say, you know, which baby do you want?

Or is he more like presented as, well, these are just cells that are multiplying, because they do the same thing. These are just cells.

He says, we have an A that looks super really good, and then we have a B or whatever. So he says, you know, this is what we put in. This is what we're, you know, this is what you're okay with. This is what we're going to put in.

And this is what we have left, you know, that hasn't been unfrozen. And so they have a list of them, this many A, B, C, and A.

But does the clarity to those people, those parents, is he very clear that these are all babies? He's not that clear?

No, they're alive.

I know, but is he clear to them? Do they, because when I talk to parents that have gone through IVF, this is one of the things that's really kind of, I can see the devastation when they realize that instead of Planned Parenthood goes in, somebody goes into Planned Parenthood, they're going in to kill one, sometimes more, but usually, you know, sometimes twins.

We have a rescue that was for twins that we're, you know, helping now. But they normally go in for one to kill one baby. But when you go in for IVF, you're trying to have one baby, but you're killing 29 out of 30.

So there's a lot.

Most of them get used, but when they get a lot.

Yeah, but I'm saying they die intentionally sometimes, usually, or unintentionally through freezing. Through our hands, as humans, they're dying through either freezing, unfreezing, selective reduction before the womb, out of the womb, and so they are actually dying.

So when they go in there and say, okay, you have one baby. How would you like to, under Utah law, we have to bury that one baby. But for IVF, they're babies at five days old in that gestational age, and they're not saying, we have 29 babies that died.

How would you like us to bury them? They're not saying the same thing. They're treated differently.

They don't all die like that.

No, but they die through our hands. They don't all die the same way.

There are some that the parents don't come back and bury.

Okay, so what about one baby? If they say, okay, this one is, the parents don't want these healthy embryos. They don't want them anymore, and they're not going to give them for adoption. They've expired because we did not implant them in the womb.

They were healthy. How would you like to bury them? Do they say that?

No.

But they expire. They die. Let's talk about one. See, we go back to the ethical, right, or want to try to stay ethical, but that's my point is I don't see an ethical IVF.

But it is up to them.

Yeah, but that's up to them here. You see where I'm going with that, right?

No, I know, and it's hard.

That's why I was wondering, how are you reconciling that, knowing that?

Well, it is wonderful to see these.

So you reconcile it by saying if one's alive, then it's okay for the others?

No, I'm saying these women who can't get babies, it's a great thing for them.

To have one.

Well, most of them come back. Most of them, I see, come back and get most of the eggs. There's a few that don't. But most of them come back.

Is it worth killing the others? Is it worth the other one's dying to have the one?

But not all of them.

No, is it worth the one's dying to have the one?

To them, it probably is. I mean, I probably have a different point of view, but to the people that's getting babies, to them it's great.

Do you think it's okay if they said, we have ten babies here. I can guarantee you one child, but we're going to have ten, and we're going to have to kill nine. But it's great, because you're going to have one, but we're going to have to kill the other nine, and they're going to be two weeks old.

Is that okay?

You don't have to kill them.

You don't have to, but they do. Is that okay?

But they stay for years. They can be at years in the frozen.

My question is, is it okay if the parents want to kill those nine in order to have the one at two weeks old?

No, but hopefully they wouldn't kill them.

Hopefully they won't kill them inside Planned Parenthood.

Hopefully they'll come back in a year or two, and then they'll get another one, and they'll come back in a year or two, and they'll get another one, and then they'll have a family.

They already have a family, but they have family that's dead, that's killed through this process. That's the point. There is no ethical IVF. That's my point. And so how do you reconcile that? It's hard to reconcile when you think of him as every baby's life is valuable, not just kill some to have some, and it's a great thing because you have a baby.

And that's the way politicians look at it. Look, we're pro-life. We're creating life here with IVF process, but nobody's talking about the ones that are dying through the process, and even the pro-life laws and the pro-life states and the pro-life people are saying, don't talk about that.

And we're not even going to uphold laws that we've made for the babies that we're killing here. We're not going to hold the same laws for us with the ones that we're killing through the IVF process.

Well, and some babies don't make it naturally. There's lots of miscarriages.

No, that's different. I'm not talking about, that's not a murder. That's not a murder.

Well, some of those embryos you put in, there's a chance they're going to miscarry.

Some.

Because they can miscarry without going through the process.

But you keep going back to some as, well, some of them will die naturally. Not necessarily, but I mean, we have a different view. But there's others that don't die naturally. What about them? What about them?

I know I keep going back to like, let's try to figure out an ethical, let's try to find the ethical path. I would argue that there's no ethical path.

Well, people can adopt embryos.

Well, can, but they don't. We have how many frozen?

Well, we have a lot.

Well, I think that through the laws that we should say that no more IVF and we need to adopt the ones in there, I would say yeah for that. But that's not what's happening. So when somebody goes in to your lab and he says, okay, I want to pay X amount of money.

How much does it cost for IVF, the process? $10 ,000, $100 ,000?

$9 ,000.

$9 ,000 for each pregnancy?

No.

Once they're frozen, then they come back and it's only $1 ,500.

Okay.

And so it's.

So $9 ,000 initially and then $1 ,500 to implant?

No, if you come back in like any two years, get another one, then it's $1 ,500 to put that one in.

So it's $9 ,000 for the first one and then $1 ,500 additionally.

Well, they're all taken out at the same time.

Right.

So it's $9 ,000 initially.

Yeah.

And then they freeze them and then they come back every year, two years.

Until they don't want anymore.

Or they've used them all up.

Or unless they don't want anymore. So if they don't want anymore and those embryos are frozen, and the next person comes in and says, hey, I want a baby. Does he say, hey, I can save you. There's embryos.

This process is already done. We have some frozen that they don't want. You can adopt those instead. Or does he say, well, it'll cost this much.

Well, they want their own baby.

Right.

See?

See the problem?

No, I see it. And there's definitely gray areas.

Oh, it's black and white.

It helps a lot of families.

I think the gray areas are created by trying to figure out an ethical point of view. And I think it's very black and white that these babies are dying and that you can't find an ethical view for a reason to let babies die.

But they're not all dying.

I'm not talking about the ones that are alive. I'm happy that they're alive. I'm talking about the ones that are dying. See what I mean? It keeps going back to, well, what about the ones that are alive?

But that's what their argument is. See, Planned Parenthood argument right here would say this saves women's lives. This is health care.

Right?

That's what they're saying. So now what, in a way, it sounds like it's like, yes, but this is health care. This is saving families. This is creating families. It's health care. It's a good thing. And that's the same argument that they're using.

They can be frozen for 20 years and be fine. I mean, I'm just saying.

Do any of them die during the freezing process?

Some.

Okay, some. Some die.

Anyway, you know.

But what about the ones that wouldn't die anyway?

We don't know.

Yeah, we do.

Because what historically has happened, if we go to history and say, when I look at a politician, I don't say, what are you saying to me that I can trust for the future? What I say is, what have you done in the past that I can trust you in the future?

So when I look at IVF and I say, okay, what does history say? History says that there are basically kids for sale. There is murdering. There's genetics. There is selective reduction, which is genetics.

We'll take the ones we want. There's all of these things that are the history. So 93 of the babies over history die. Then what about the future? What's going to happen? Well, the argument you hear is, yes, but there's babies.

There's some. There's whatever. And it might not. But history says that it will happen. It's a yes, it will. Maybe not. No, it's definite because that's the history. Even IVF labs say there is no way for us to do IVF without killing children.

That's what happened in the Alabama Supreme Court case. That's what happened here in Utah. Very much similar. But in Utah, we're going, oh, we don't want to look at that. We don't want to see that. Let's talk about the some that are alive.

That's every politician in the country. Well, not every. Not every. We have ones that are fighting for the rights of the babies, and they come and they go. Right now, a good example is Dusty Deaver is fighting ethically for the lives of these children.

He knows more about IVF than us put together because he's got a booklet on it under Rescue Those and talks about it. It's fantastic. He knows all about it. So I can't sit there and go, well, maybe this, maybe that with him because he knows all about it.

So there are a few, and those are the experts. And then you have those other ones that are saying, like, Ted Cruz and even Mike Johnson, don't do that because it will cost us votes. That's the most important thing.

It will cost us political votes and we want to be elected into office. And then they go to the things where they say, well, we've got to do incremental, we've got to do this slowly, how long are we going to do this?

And it's the same argument, some, some. And I would say there's no ethical reason to kill babies. And if there is, answer that. In what ethical, what is an ethical reason to kill a baby through IVF? So the Trigger Law, and I'll give you an example and then you can try to answer the other.

The Trigger Law says if you can't kill a child except for the reasons of rape, incest, and mother's life. This is the law that Pro-Life Utah has been fighting for, right, and they have the Trigger Law.

You can't kill a baby because of rape, incest, and mother's life. This is the Latter-day Saint Church says the same thing. This is what they would say ethical, the ethical killing of a child. It is a killing of a child, and they agree, but it's an ethical way of children.

So if that's the only ethical way, you can't tell me that there's a mother's life in danger through IVF. You can't tell me there was rape or incest in IVF, but you're still killing children. So how is IVF ethical if that's already been defined as ethical?

Can you find it?

I don't know.

Yeah, I know, and that's the... I'm not trying to be hard, but I am being brutally honest maybe, but not hard on you.

No, and I've worried about it, and I asked him about it, but I also see he does do extra care to keep them.

Yeah, that's him. It's still not ethical.

But I know he doesn't send them out to have sex selection and all that stuff.

Yeah, that's a horrible thing. I just learned about that recently, how that happens. And selective reduction happens through, like, an ultrasound and a needle, and they basically inject those babies and give them a heart attack in the womb, and then they're, like, either mummified or at certain ages, I guess, they are absorbed into the mother's body, and that's an awful, awful, sick process of selective reduction that would still be on the side of ethical.

It blows my mind.

They're very careful with them when they put them in. It's really slow.

Not everybody.

No, well, I know, but...

If you do one for one and you do it for the other, I mean, if one does it differently than another, we're still doing it as a whole.

Everybody's different. Different labs have different ways they do it, different...

But if everybody's different, there's still a right and wrong.

Oh, there is. And I worry about that.

And I'd like to know the right way.

Well, I worry about that, but I also think the right things happen, too. So these women have been trying for years and years and can't get babies, can't get babies, and they finally can get babies. So I see this other wonderful side, but I know there's a bad side to it, too.

It's a horrible side.

And I still... I mean, if that's the argument, it's okay to kill babies. If you have some, then look at the percentage. And you have 93 of the babies. We're talking about if you take 10 and you kill 9 and you have 1, then that's actually a better percentage than what IVF gives.

93%. You'd have to take a... So I'll give you a little representation.

If you shoot that baby in the head right there, you can have three other kids. Does that ever work?

No.

Never. It's the same thing. It's the same thing. You're creating life and you're killing life to make a life. Never okay.

That's the part where I would argue that there's no ethical way to kill a child to have a child. Even though having that child is wonderful to have a child. But God's sovereignty...

Some. Some.

He wouldn't, but that happens all the time. What if somebody says, no, that's okay, give me five. But what if he says, look, most likely one's going to die if we put two in. He'll still put two? How many, what's the average?

What would be the higher percentage when he puts two in? What's the higher percentage? One or two that are born?

Would one?

One.

They have a lot of twins.

Okay, but no, I'm saying the higher percentage. So the higher percentage is one, but the higher percentage...

Yeah, but then that's the point is if I say I'm going to put my kids, I'm going to take both of them, I'm going to put them in a situation in which they have a 50 chance at life in the hopes that one of them will grow up to be bigger.

That's child endangerment, plain and simple. Any way I do that, we try to play God and make babies outside of the womb, and babies are wonderful, especially in any case, but if you're trying to thwart the hand of God, you get yourself into these tangles.

You can't.

You're trying to justify an ethical and right way to do it.

Yeah.