Engaging Tim Keller on the Doctrine of Hell

Tim Keller’s Longstanding Drift and Why This Series Matters

Conversations That Matter podcast I'm your host John Harris to continue our study in engaging with Keller. For those who didn't see the last podcast I would suggest go watch that but if you don't want to watch that I will just let you know that this is a very helpful resource in understanding Tim Keller's theology.

It was printed first in 2013 so the quotes in here from Keller are from works that he did and sermons he preached before that time which to me is very intriguing because that means that Keller has been really off for a really long time and you know for someone like myself who was involved in college career ministry and I remember in a very secular town in New York I was part of a I don't know if church plan is the best word but that's really what it ended up being.

It was it was an attempt to plant a church and we did one of the Redeemer Presbyterian Church's studies with featuring Tim Keller video study on the basics of Christianity but where really what it amounted to was it was a lot of like New York City secular people like not even Christians who sat down with Tim Keller as Tim Keller would explain to them what Christianity was really about and they could ask questions and he would dazzle them he would totally knock down their misconceptions about Christianity.

And I think a lot of what this book deals with reminds me of that study because in this book Keller seems to try to either posit an alternative way of looking at that's the best construction on this an alternative way of looking at some Orthodox teaching to make it more palatable or acceptable to secular people who are turned off by the church and Christianity and Jesus.

Or it's he just reinvents he like it's not even that he's got two teachings side-by-side one Orthodox that he gives to the Orthodox audience and one that's frankly compromised that he gives to the postmoderns.

Sometimes he just comes up with this is my thing this is how I'm going to conceive of this Orthodox teaching and it's just it's all wrong. It's usually though it's not I shouldn't say all wrong. It's it's wrong but it's actually somewhat right.

That's the dangerous part. Some of what he says is right. In fact sometimes 80 of it can just be so biblical and good and you miss that 20 That's the poison pill. And I'm just surprised to be honest that for decades those who should be guarding us guarding against false teaching guarding the sheep who fancy themselves as the defenders of the Christian faith even seem to have missed some of these things.

It's just as I go through this book it becomes more and more and more revealing to me obvious to me that Tim Keller he's going outside of Orthodoxy guys I don't know how else to put it. He's giving false teaching.

And of course I've gone into the social justice teaching of Tim Keller in deep ways and even published in the book that I wrote social justice goes to church a whole chapter on Tim Keller and his social teaching and what it leads to and how compromised it is.

But it's so beyond that. It's so beyond that. And so this is going to be helpful for you who are in the church who are dealing with this. Maybe your pastor which God forbid but a lot of pastors are influenced by Tim Keller.

Maybe your pastor is pushing Tim Keller stuff and maybe it's you know something that you haven't noticed and now you're realizing oh man you know I listen to Tim Keller for so long and I didn't see these things and it's helpful for you.

Or maybe you don't care about Tim Keller one way or the other. You might have dismissed him already or you just not familiar and you don't want to be but you're gonna still hear these kinds of things and so I think it's beneficial for you as well.

So we're gonna get into Tim Keller's understanding of the doctrine of hell today. We did sin last time. Now we're doing hell. And it's very similar. In fact I would say that you could probably do one chapter on his view of sin and of hell because they really run into each other but we're separating them because the book separates them and because they are different doctrines.

And this is gonna be it's gonna be interesting. So before we get into it I need to let you know about a sponsor though for this particular podcast. And that is Gold River. That's right Gold River tea.

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The Modern Rejection of Hell and the Need for a Biblical Standard

All right. Let's talk about Tim Keller now. And this this whole issue of hell. I mean this is a doctrine that let's just say seems a little archaic doesn't it. I mean people today modern people. Man they don't want to hear about that.

That's one of those holdovers from the medieval time period. Well that's perhaps what a lot of people today think. And they're familiar somewhat with the imagery. Maybe from cartoons maybe from some of those demonic shows that I'm surprised are on streaming services and television.

And they reference hell mostly in positive ways or ways that don't take it too seriously. And surprise surprise Tim Keller seems to understand. That's where people today are coming from their vision of hell.

Their understanding of it has been. They're very repelled by the traditional view and they're very open to if they're open at all to the concept of hell to a very watered-down version of it. And Tim Keller knows this and he crafts his approach.

I think accordingly as we saw with his doctrine of sin. I mean he literally says that he needs to rebrand the doctrine of sin and so he does so in an unbiblical fashion and you see something similar going on here.

So I'm gonna read for you. This is the author of this particular section in engaging with Keller his quote. He says this about Tim Keller. He says Keller has two different ways of communicating the doctrine of hell one for traditionalists and the other for postmoderns.

Keller's teaching for traditionalists seems consistent with the traditional doctrine for postmoderns. Keller takes his cues from one of the his favorite Christian thinkers C .S. Lewis and so this brings up something that we have to kind of face head-on we have to deal with and that is the fact that C .S. Lewis is very respected in evangelicalism today.

He is some some have joked about the like the gospel coalition's new Trinity. I don't remember all the names but C .S. Lewis is one of those like Abraham Kuyper. C .S. Lewis said. I forgot who the third one is.

Might be Tim Keller. Who knows. But C .S. Lewis though is is so far up there on the list and I'm not a Lewis scholar. I haven't done in-depth studies of Lewis. Sure I had the Chronicles of Narnia books read to me as a child I and I realized there's issues with the last battle.

I realize people have issues even with the idea of appeasing the White Witch instead of appeasing the wrath of God. And there's there's all these issues. If but it's a fantasy it's I've always taken it as it's.

It's not a perfect analogy. Lewis was trying to do analogy but it you're not. It's a challenging task and I I don't. I never really took it that way that it was a parallel in every sense and so I've never been that offended by his fantasy work.

But I know some of you are I get that. But there's some problems with Lewis and this podcast is not about exploring that I just need people who are in this audience who are used to respecting Lewis. You can still respect him on some of his things his teachings.

I've referenced some things that are positive of his observations he makes that are very pierce piercing and just accurate about the times in which he lived in some ways the times in which we lived. C .S. Lewis was a critic of modernity though he was also in some ways a product of it.

Just probably like I am and probably like all of you are to some extent and so there's things we can glean. I've often quoted Lewis's quote where he talks about reading old books. I think that's important.

But Lewis himself as we'll see in this particular podcast also had some issues and these issues seem to be more or less products of modernity. These are things that he man-centered approaches that he adopted that aren't in keeping with biblical orthodoxy or just even the traditional understandings of hell that the church has valued for millennia.

So dispel your the myth of this of the perfect C .S. Lewis. If you have that in your head dispel the myth that C .S. Lewis is Orthodox and he's not. He's not Orthodox in every sense at all. And the more I think you read him them on certain things the more you come to that conclusion.

But this isn't about attacking Lewis. This is about understanding Keller. And because Keller so much from Lewis on this particular doctrine I have to say that up front. So let's let's get into it more and talk about the actual things Keller says about the doctrine of hell.

God as Judge: The Biblical Basis for Hell

First we got to do. We got to go through some Orthodox teaching though because we need a standard to compare what Keller says to the standard which of course is scripture and and of course secondary standards being confessions and so forth.

I only put one clip from a confession because I want to focus on scripture more here. Here's the Orthodox teaching on hell and this is not exhaustive. God is first of all we need to understand a judge to be feared.

And this is all throughout scripture. In fact there's a lot of verses that I could have put here. I did not. I think of the end of Ecclesiastes. God is is a good judge. I often use that in evangelism.

However there are a number of passages that talk about the Psalm 56. God himself is judge. Acts 10 42. And he ordered us to preach to the people the solemnly and solemnly to testify that this is the one who has been appointed by God as judge of the living and the dead living and dead guys.

Because he has fixed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness through a man whom he has appointed having furnished proof to all men by raising him from the dead. Acts 17 31. Hebrews 10 30 through 31.

For we know him who said vengeance is mine. I will repay. And again the Lord will judge his people. And listen to this. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of a living God. And this is heavy stuff.

No wonder people want to run away from this. Jesus said they would. This is why light and darkness don't mix. Darkness hides from the light. It doesn't want to be exposed. It doesn't want to be judged.

And I will set my glory among the nations. And all the nations will see my judgment which I have executed and my hand which I laid on them. Ezekiel 39 21. There's an audience to this judgment. It's not just about God doing something privately with you.

There people are going to know. And we are heading towards a final judgment in which there is a public nature to this. We also have the Westminster Confession of Faith. God's judicial office is included in the list of divine attributes in that particular confession.

Now that's number one. This is the basis for the doctrine of hell. You can't get the doctrine of hell without starting with God as a judge. And we could have talked about other attributes. God's holy he's offended by sin.

That's what leads you to the understanding that he has to judge sin. If he's a good judge he has. He can't turn a blind eye. He's got a judge. What's before him. The law-breaking cannot be given a pass.

Now hell is a real place. Scripture teaches us all over Matthew 25 31. Then he will also say to those on his left apart from me accursed ones into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels Luke 13 27.

And by the way I'm gonna stop right here actually and say something. I had just thought of it how it was prepared originally for the devil and his angels. Right. It's what scripture teaches. I'm wondering if Tim Keller would apply as we will see in his doctrine of hell which is essentially that it's locked from the inside that humans are the punishment for their sin is their own sin.

It's a self judgment. Almost God is is not really involved in the process or that much. If that is hell for humans what about for demons. What about for Satan. It begs the question and the article and in this book does not go into this.

But I'm gonna go into this just a little bit. What about for the demons and for Satan. Do they choose to go to hell. Is it locked from the inside. They are just living with the consequences of their actions.

And God has a hands-off policy when it comes to them. Or man does he judge them because they are evil. They're evil. He Keller doesn't apply this to demons. But to be consistent you would think he would if that's the purpose of hell.

Anyway we're gonna. I'm foreshadowing where we're going. But I thought of it now and I figured I better say it all right. Luke's 1327 says this. And he will say I tell you I do not know where you are from.

Depart from me all you evildoers. Luke 12 5. But I will warn you whom to fear. Fear the one who after he is killed has authority to cast into hell. Yes I tell him fear him. Matthew 13 40 through 42. So as the tears are gathered up and burned with fire so shall it be at the end of the age.

The Son of Man will send forth his angels and they will gather out of his kingdom all the stumbling blocks. And those who commit lawlessness and they will. He will throw them into the furnace of fire.

In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Second Thessalonians 1 9. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power.

Revelation 1411. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. They have no rest day and night. Those who worship the beast in his image and whoever receives the mark of his name. Now there's more than just this.

But this should be enough to convince you that it is that they're at the very minimal. It is biblical. Yeah. We don't hear this on Christian radio. Yeah. You don't hear this in Christian preaching much.

Yeah. This is something that's sidestep. This is something that soft pedal. This is something that has to be explained in nuanced ways as people try to come up with as many as many ways to qualify it.

These are just what what the Bible teaches. So these are the passages that teach this doctrine in no uncertain terms in plain language. Listen. Anyone who would try to downplay this ignore it change it needs to be looked on with an air of suspicion because the truth is important.

In fact that's one of the reasons Jesus came was to testify to the truth. And if you have someone who's willing to massage it to lie to deceive on such a fundamental issue. And there's no good motivation I can think of for this I can think of in times of war in contests and in various circumstances appropriate places for deception.

This isn't one of them. This is like the number one thing you would think people ought to know if someone was in danger of getting cancer because they let's say we're in in a nuclear blast field where they would live near Chernobyl or I don't know there's some you know issue in their neighborhood with installing a you know some neighborhoods they oppose companies that want to come in and put in cell towers and other things because they're concerned about this.

You know at those moments when you're in danger from something like that you need to know the facts. You need to know what it is. You should be afraid of. What precautions you should take. How can you escape it.

How can you avoid it. Not. Oh it's not that bad. Oh it's it's not. You know I know people are saying it's this bad. But it's it's. It's something that you shouldn't be all that concerned about. Downplaying that concern would be looked on upon as cruel.

And Tim Geller doesn't ever say quote it's not important. He didn't say that he gives you information though. That leads a sinner to possibly conclude that that it's not really that important. God isn't really that much to be feared.

Last slide on the Orthodox teaching of hell. And then we'll get into Keller's specific quotes on this. God exercises his own volition in judgment. Okay. This is important because you see this all throughout the Bible.

Noah's flood Sodom and Gomorrah the Exodus Korah's rebellion. All Old Testament examples of God exercising his own volition and judgment. It's not man punishing himself. It's God intervening to punish man.

Romans 9 specifically says. In fact I'll just read it. You will say to me why does he still God still find fault. Who for who resists his will. On the contrary who are you a man to answer back to God.

The thing molded will not say to the molder. Why did you make me like this. Will it or does not the Potter have a right over the clay to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use.

What if God although willing to demonstrate his wrath and make his power known endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. If that doesn't show you that God's volition is in judgment.

I don't know what will God does. Cast sinners into hell against their will. Matthew 7 22 through 23. Many will say to me on that day Lord Lord did we not prophesy in your name. And in your name cast out demons.

And in your name perform any miracles. And then I will declare to them. I knew never knew you depart from me. You who practice lawlessness they're objecting. They're not saying let's go. They're not saying well I'm gonna lock this door from the inside.

I don't want God. So I'm satisfied going here. That's not what's happening here. Matthew 23 33. You serpents you brood of vipers. How will you escape the sentence of hell. Matthew 10 28. Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul but rather fear him was able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

We should have fear. We should have fear as humans. I'm talking about as sinners fear that God will punish. And in fact that's the biblical picture is that people want to escape. How will you escape that sentence.

When it comes upon you. They're not partying down there. They're not in hell satisfied that it's a better choice than heaven. No they're suffering at the hands of God. Keller deters people from this Orthodox teaching on hell.

He says this modern people inevitably think that hell works like this. God gives us time. But if we haven't made the right choices by the end of our lives he casts our souls into hell for all eternity.

As the poor souls fall through space they cry out to mercy. But God says too late you had your chance. Now you will suffer this caricature. He calls it a character. He says this character misunderstands the very nature of evil.

The biblical picture is that sin separates us from the presence of God which is the source of all joy and indeed of all love wisdom or good things of any sort. Since we were originally created for God's immediate presence only before his face will we thrive flourish and achieve our highest potential.

If we were to lose his presence totally that would be hell. The loss of our capability for giving or receiving love. Or you you know it is from reason for God. A lot of these quotes are from reason for God.

This doesn't sound like the passages we just read. In fact it sounds to me like Keller is saying the passages we just read are the character. In other words there that's the image we have is the the biblical teaching that we just went over.

But you know that's a misunderstanding. That's just a character. What hell really is is losing God's presence. That's what that's. He reduces it down to that. He also says this. This is why it is a travesty travesty.

So we have character. Now we have a travesty to picture God casting people into a pit who are crying I'm sorry. Let me out the people on the bus from hell. And Lewis's yes Lewis's parable. It's quoting Lewis here.

He relies a lot on. Lewis would rather have their freedom as they define it than salvation. Their delusion is that if they glorify God they would somehow lose power and freedom. But in a supreme and tragic irony their choices ruined their own potential for greatness.

Hell is as Lewis says the greatest monument to human freedom. As Romans 124 says God gave them up to their desires. All God does in the end with people is give them up what. Give them what they most want including freedom from himself.

What could be more fair than that. Now this is total misunderstanding of Romans. I just read you Romans 9 but Romans 1 is talking about God this side of heaven and hell this side of eternity allowing people to go their course into truth suppression and deeper levels of depravity.

That is what they will be punished for. That is not the punishment. Keller assumes that is the punishment. The sin is the punishment. And this is something that is chosen. Of course people choose to sin.

But do they choose their punishment is the question. And if you conflate the sin with the punishment then you can come up with the idea that they're choosing their punishment as well. This would be like a thief or a murderer going to jail because they were caught and saying well you chose it.

Did they choose it. Well you know I guess in a sense they chose to make a decision that inevitably led to their capture and their punishment. But were they seeking capture. Were they trying to evade capture.

Did they want cat. Was that why they did it. They really want that. They really want the punishment. No of course they don't. They wanted the sin in the moment in which it seemed desirable. They didn't want to sit in a prison.

They didn't want to get the death penalty or any kind of fine that you know maybe they may have to pay. That's not why they did it. That's the punishment for what they did. That's the punishment for what they did.

Some of them might be willing to undergo that but they don't like it. They're not. It's not something that they're choosing themselves. It's it's the infliction of punishment by themselves to themselves.

No the punishment comes from a judicial system. In that case a judicial system they wish probably did not exist. So they wouldn't have to be punished. Keller's view replaces. So that is number one. I should just reinforce.

Number one Keller deters people from the Orthodox teaching on hell. This is not the Orthodox teaching. But number two Keller's view replaces the Orthodox teaching with an innovative new concept of hell.

Sin as Its Own Punishment and the Self-Chosen Identity of Hell

So what's Tim Keller's hell. The hell. He talks about the postmoderns. Well first of all in this hell sinners choose it. Sinners choose it. Hell is just a free is actually his quote. Hell is a freely chosen identity based on something else besides God going on forever.

And that's the reason why the idea that you might have in your mind and that people give you in your mind that God is a God who sort of throws people into hell. You know that he sort of throws them into this pit.

And they're climbing up the side saying please no let me out. And God is saying no. It's too late now it's hell for you. C .S. Lewis puts it like this. He says in the long run the answer to those who object to the doctrine of hell is itself a question.

What are you asking God to do to wipe out past sins and at all costs give them a fresh start. He did on Calvary to forgive them. But they don't ask for forgiveness to leave them alone. That's what hell is.

There are only two kinds of people in the end those who say to God I will be done. And those who to whom God says in the end I will be done. All that are in hell choose it. Without the self-choice it wouldn't be help.

This is from one of Tim Keller sermons. And this is the the problem obviously with this is that God does throw people into hell. And the idea that it's purely a the autonomous choice of man that it's that send that is the only the sole contributor to them.

Going to hell is nonsense. It's not just God leaving them alone to their own devices. Sure God allows sinners to pursue their sin at times. Sure he hardens hearts even at times as we see with Pharaoh does that mean that they chose hell that that was part of the recipe part of the equation in their mind when they chose to sin.

We have no biblical justification for any of this. And it takes away the role of God as the judicial force in this to come in and meet out the requirements of justice in eternity. Tim Keller says there's there's is increasing isolation denial delusion and self-absorption.

When you lose all humility you are out of touch with reality. No one ever asks to leave hell. The very idea of heaven seems to them a sham. So it's not just that you choose to go there you choose to remain there.

You want to stay there once you go there man that's so you would prefer that to heaven. There's no biblical justification for this. In fact just the opposite. Keller kind of twists up we're not going into it today.

But he kind of twists up the rich man Lazarus to try to justify this. Somehow the indications that we get from the passage I just read to you though is people are suffering down there. People are in torment.

That's the reason we should fear. You don't see that in Tim Keller's version. Here in Keller's unorthodox innovative new version of hell sin is its own punishment. Sinful behavior and sinful desires he says are like a fire that is broken out in your living room.

Fire is never satisfied. It can't be allowed to smolder. It can't be confined to a corner. It will overtake you eventually. Sin is the same way it never stays in its place. It always leads to separation from God which results in intense suffering first in this life and then in the next.

The Bible calls that hell. So now we have hell not just in the afterlife but we have hell today. We have hell. So you're suffering hell when you engage in sin in the here and now and you will continue that suffering in the afterlife.

So it's this breaks down the idea that it's even a literal place it's a state of being. It sounds like that you freely chosen and that the punishment and the sin are one and the same. God's involvement in judging is minimal in this at best.

In Keller's conception he says this the people in hell are miserable. But Lewis yes. Lewis shows us why we see raging like unchecked flames. Their pride their paranoia their self-pity and their certainty that everyone else is wrong and everyone else is an idiot.

All their humility is gone and so is their sanity. They are utterly finally locked into in a prison of their own self-centeredness and their pride progressively expands into a bigger and bigger mushroom cloud.

They continue to go to pieces forever blaming everyone but themselves. Hell is that writ large. So here here you have Tim Keller. Basically this is the insanity appeal. You have to square this with what he said before too that so hell is locked from the inside.

They're making somewhat of a rational choice in there. They have their marbles about them and they're saying I'd rather be here than heaven. I'm choosing to go here. But at the same time they're miserable because they have to live with themselves.

They have to live with their own sin and that sin has made them insane. So I so I don't know which one are they making a rational choice with their marbles. Are they spiraling into insanity in hell. I'm not exactly clear on this.

And Keller isn't exactly it seems clear on this. What he is clear on though is that God doesn't seem to be in this picture very much. The humans are taking the volition from step one. They chose to sin.

They engage they were living in hell in this life. The state of being. That's how this figurative thing the symbolic thing they then they they go to what sounds like a literal place that continues this state of being after death.

But they lock it from the inside. They choose to be there knowingly. And God is just has a hands-off policy this entire time. It's as if a place existed now. Of course God created it. That's the thing that's the they kind of I think blows a hole in this.

But God created this place. So this place exists and it's a road that one could take. They could. They have the option and they can keep going there if they want. They can see it in the distance all the flames and they can see also the people that are rejoicing in heaven and they just keep going down that path to the flames because guess what that's really what they want.

They want the punishment can't wait for it. It's better than the flames. But you know they'll be miserable but they'll be less miserable. This is this just goes against human nature. It goes against what the Bible teaches it.

And ultimately the thing that I have a problem with more than anything is it attacks God's character. And I want to explain to you why Keller's character of hell is indistinguishable from the Orthodox truth.

So he knocks it down. He dispels the concept of the Orthodox teaching of hell from people's minds. They say that's not what it is. And I'm Tim Keller. I have but I don't even what. He has a PhD and I'm educated.

I'm a pastor I'm successful. I know the Bible better than you listen to me. I mean that's how people are gonna take it. At least he's a has authority and you know what you heard about hell which you might have even read in Scripture even because some of this stuff he's talking about this is in Scripture.

That's that's not what it is. So he he that's the first attack. It's an attack on Scripture indirectly. But the second thing is it attacks God's character. It denies God's attribute of wrath as if he were not directly in control of punishing sinners.

Keller seems to depict sin as something that inevitably leads to negative consequences without reference to God's personal role in judicial sentencing or inflicting wrath. So as God a God of wrath or not that's the question.

It denies God's attribute of justice by arguing God does not condemn people to hell. Instead people send themselves criminals as I just pointed out do not willingly give up their liberty to be locked up in jail.

We could say all who are in heaven choose it and we would have better biblical grounds. In other words if people choose to go to hell I guess you could say that all the people in heaven are choosing it too.

Why not. And but we know that Keller would probably bristle at that one because he knows that God is the one who inevitably chooses who goes to heaven. And that's part of his sovereign choice. Keller at least he I don't want to say he feigns but he he is on the more reformed side in many of his views especially that view of predestination of election.

But when you did dig down into these issues like sin and like hell now you find out Keller's views are very unorthodox there and they're not just unorthodox. They are not reformed at all. Keller tries.

And one of the good things about this book I'm not getting into it in this particular podcast. One of the good things though is they go into a justification Tim Keller tries to make. He says look I'm getting some of this from Jonathan Edwards.

Edwards said the hell's the fire in house symbolic. And I appreciate the fact that the author here Schweitzer decides to look at the sermon Keller is drawing from and says hey this point that Edwards is making is it's worse than we can imagine.

That's the symbol in other words that they're giving us these concepts like that we can relate to like fire and it's going to be that. But it's going to be a whole lot more. It's symbolic of something much worse.

It's the whole point Edwards is making is not that there's not going to be fire there. And you know Keller does this. It is a unfortunately a habit I think of Keller. He does this to Calvin sometimes.

Or he tries to quote Calvin to support something. And then you go and you read the broader writings of Calvin and even the immediate context. Sometimes you'll you'll think that he's not taking into account historical context.