Debate: Can A True Christian Lose Their Salvation?

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All right. First, we're going to start off with a word of prayer, then we're going to get into it.

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Let's pray. Holy Father, Lord, in the name of Jesus Christ, our God, we thank you so much for your love and your grace and the peace you have given us,

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Lord. We pray, Lord God, that you will be glorified tonight. We pray, Lord God, that you will just enrich the hearts and minds of everyone here, that your word will go forth,

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Lord God. We pray, Lord God, that you'll bless the debaters today, Lord God, that you'll make their minds sharp, make their words edifying,

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Lord God, that you'll be glorified, Lord. I pray for everyone here and everyone that's on their way, Lord.

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I pray that you'll give them traveling grace as they make their way here. And everyone here, Lord God, we just pray, Lord, that you will give us all a safe evening and a wonderful evening that's glorifying to you.

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We thank you and we praise you. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. I'd like to thank everyone here that came tonight for this event, this debate event.

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Before we get into introduction and things like that, we want to make sure that you understand, do not walk in front of the cameras here along this aisle.

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Make sure you stay clear because they are recording the debate. Thanks to Apologia Church and Pastor Jeff Durbin and the elders for allowing this event to take place.

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And so as far as my ministry, the ministry is called the Gospel Truth, TGT for short.

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TGT is predominantly on social media platforms. You can find us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, the usual stuff.

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YouTube predominantly. We host a lot of debates and we do interviews and commentaries. You may see my face on there, you know, when

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I'm doing a commentary or critiquing an argument somebody may make to try to go against the Christian faith. Or you may see two debaters on there participating in the debate.

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So we host a variety of topics. It could be more biblical. It could be more cultural as far as engaging with the secular worldviews and things like that.

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And so the Gospel Truth is not only our goal, should I say, is not only to be on social media.

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We also desire to be more street level ministry where we're out there preaching the gospel, pitching tents, if you will, you know, out there telling people handing out flyers the whole night.

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Right. So the ministry is about three years old. It started about in 2019.

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So we're still infant stages of the ministry. A little bit about myself. I was born and raised in California, Los Angeles, California, to be more specific.

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I'm currently residing in Indio, California with my wife and my five children. So it's a blessing, definitely a blessing to have a family and be able to glorify

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God through our family. I graduated from Liberty University with a

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Master's of Arts in Christian apologetics and also a Bachelor's of Arts in Biblical Studies and Theology from Boyce College.

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And this ministry is dear to my heart. This is a ministry that I find to be equipped, the desire of the ministry is to equip

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Christians to be able to discuss important topics in a manner that's glorifying to God. Obviously, we do that through debate.

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We do that through just straight up interviews and commentaries. The whole the whole mission of the

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Gospel Truth is to engage the culture with Christian truth. The team that is,

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I'm the founder of the Gospel Truth. My wife is the administrative director and I have two other brothers that's also involved in the ministry with me.

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One does more like web design and he does all the artistic things you may see on the webpage and things like that.

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And I have another brother who also does writing to contribute to the ministry. And so if you have not yet, if you don't mind, you can go and search for the

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Gospel Truth on YouTube. And if you're on there, make sure you subscribe. Make sure you support the ministry where the least is described.

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All right. So this ministry, this debate, should

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I say, obviously has two debate participants. We have Daniel Cosentino and we have

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Lucas Curcio. Did I say that right? Curcio.

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See, I knew I was going to mess it up, man. Curcio. Lucas Curcio. Daniel is going to be representing the Perseverance of the

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Saints position and Lucas is going to be working the Conditional Security position. Make sure

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I get everything here. So once again, the debate premise tonight is Perseverance of the Saints versus Conditional Security, which is biblical.

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We want to make sure we understand this is an in -house debate. These two brothers are not enemies of each other.

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So we expect a debate that is going to, once again, be glorifying to God and that's going to encourage each other to continue to debate in the future.

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All right. So we're going to introduce the debaters right now. All right. So once again, Daniel is representing the

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Perseverance of the Saints position. Daniel Cosentino was born and raised in America's finest city, San Diego.

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I don't know about that, man. I don't know. I don't know. Daniel is currently going to school for his

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Master's of Divinity, attending Whitefield Theological Seminary. He has been married to his wife,

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Kimberly, for four years. Daniel leads the LDS Outreach of Apologia Church, where he also serves as a deacon.

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And also to my right, we have Lucas. Lucas has been a Christian for several years now, and because of Jesus' gospel, his goal in life is to live for him and hear the words, well done, good and faithful servant.

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Lucas received an Associate of Arts in Biblical Studies from Trinity Baptist College, a Bachelor of Arts in Christian Apologetics from Liberty University, and is currently pursuing, with Liberty, a

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Master's of Divinity. Lucas married his beautiful wife, Kayla, in May this year, and they reside in Totawa, New Jersey.

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If you want to hear more about him, you can follow him on YouTube, Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at Method Ministries.

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All right. So now what we're going to do, we're going to go over the format of the debate, reiterate Once again, the topic of the debate is

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Perseverance and Safety versus Conditional Security, which is Biblical. And the format is as follows, we'll begin the debate with 20 -minute opening statements by each party, 10 -minute rebuttals, then we have a 40 -minute cross -examination, where both parties will get 20 minutes each to cross -examine each other.

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Then after the cross -ex, there will be a 10 -minute intermission where we'll begin to gather questions. If you guys didn't notice coming in, you notice in the back of the room, there is two baskets.

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I believe Lucas is on the right side and Daniel is on the left side. So those are questions for each participant.

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So make sure, if you have yet to do so, that you get a card so you can write your question on. If you hear something that you want to ask the debaters, make sure you write that question on there.

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Don't be last minute, get the piece of paper now, so you can do it now. And then when the time permits, go ahead and slide that into the basket for whatever debate participant that you have that question for.

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Okay? And then we're going to follow that up after the 10 -minute intermission, gather the questions, then we're going to have 10 -minute closings, and then we'll have a 30 -minute

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Q &A for each party. All right, that's it.

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Lucas is up first for his 20 -minute opening statement. Well, I'm in the lion's den now.

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Daniel's lion's den. Thank you all so much for being here. Thank you Apology at Church for hosting us.

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Thank you Marlon Wilson for moderating and bringing Daniel and I together, and thank you Daniel for being my debate partner, and thank you to my beautiful wife

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Kayla for supporting me. She's in the front row. Don't forget to say hi to her and introduce yourself. And I just want to echo what

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Marlon Wilson says. This is an in -house debate. I'm really grateful that I'm up here with my brother in Christ and not an enemy. So I am encouraged by that,

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Daniel. And that being said, let us get going for my opening statement. The question of the debate tonight,

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Perseverance of the Saints versus Conditional Security, which is biblical, requires us to investigate what the

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Scriptures say on this matter, even if that means we are only examining our current position, and most importantly, our assumptions of which position we take.

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Because the truth is, we all have our assumptions, but they must be tested against the Scriptures. And if we do that, we find the

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Bible teaching that salvation is for the believing one. So all believers have salvation, security, and assurance in Christ, while warning the same believing group to continue in the faith, warning them to not fall away, and even telling them what will happen if they do.

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So combined, the Bible teaches that believers are saved if they believe, and can fall away if they stop. This is the doctrine

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I'll be defending tonight, known as Conditional Security. Now this may make some of you feel uncomfortable, because for years, they've been taught things like eternal security, and only

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Pelagianists and heretics deny this. But if God's words teach this, then this is the best truth we can have, and we need not fear it.

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We need to test our presuppositions against Scripture, and if we find that they are wrong, then we need to abandon them.

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Since there are warning and apostatizing passages, we can do one or two things. Interpret the passages to fit our assumptions that believers cannot lose their salvation, or adjust our assumptions to accept the genuine teachings of the warning passages.

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Since the Bible warns and tells the people who apostatize, the only logical path is to adjust the presupposition that believers cannot fall away, lest we reduce the

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Bible to warning Christians about things that can never happen, and therefore has no practical application, nor can explain why these passages even exist in the first place, if such things are possible.

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And so my thesis for defending this tonight is that salvation is for the believing one. And the biblical witness for this is that salvation is conditional upon belief, and this faith is present tense ongoing.

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In Greek, the verb tense for the word belief or faith is often in the present tense ongoing. For example, in John 6 .40,

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Jesus says, This is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him, present tense ongoing, will have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

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The man who Christ raises up is a man who has a present act of faith. Notice too that Jesus said,

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This is the will of my Father. So God has sovereignly determined salvation to be conditional. In fact, this is the very reason

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John wrote his gospel. He says in chapter 20, verse 31, These are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the

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Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. And God in his sovereignty is pleased to do this.

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He says in 1 Corinthians 1 .21, God was pleased to save those who believe through the foolishness of what it's preached.

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Paul taught in Romans 4 .16, For this reason it is by faith in order that it may be in accordance with grace.

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And in Colossians 2 .12, taught that by faith, God raises us up into spiritual life. He says in which you are also raised with him through faith in the working of God.

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Galatians 3 .26, For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. This is the clear and consistent teaching of the

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Bible that salvation is by faith alone, that is to the one who believes, present tense ongoing, and whenever and wherever it talks about the

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Christian having salvation, security, and assurance, it is always referencing no one other than the believing one.

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So because salvation is conditional, the Bible tells you you must continue in faith because believers can stop believing.

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In 1 Corinthians 15 .2, Paul says, And by which you are being saved if you hold to the message

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I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. Now this is important because many will wrongly assume that if someone falls away, this means they never had true faith.

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But here Paul distinguishes false faith, those who believed in vain, from true faith. And for those who have true faith, he tells them they will remain saved only if they continue in faith.

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This is because remaining in faith has to do with salvation. Calvinism agrees with this, and Calvinist Robert L.

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Raymond even says, Calvinist Christians are as zealous to insist upon these conditions as means to salvation as are

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Arminians. This is why they hold to perseverance of the saints, which says all Christians will continue preserving the faith.

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Thus Calvinism agrees with the basic tenets of conditional security, but even though the Bible may warn Christians about apostasy, this won't actually happen because God will preserve believers to prevent them from stopping believing.

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Yet the Bible says believers can stop believing, and therefore warns Christians to continue in faith and tells you what will happen if you don't.

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Hebrews 3 .12 says, Watch out, brothers and sisters, that it won't be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living

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God. Hebrews 10 .26 and 27 says, For if we deliberately go on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire about to consume the adversaries.

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Now, in case you're wondering if these are really talking about true Christians by the context of the Bible, they undeniably are. Hebrews 3 .1

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addresses them as holy brothers. In contemporary language, we can say holy Christians. Hebrews 10 .38

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is even clearer by talking about a man who is justified before God who can fall away, but my righteous one will live by faith, and if he draws back,

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I have no pleasure in him. The subject here is the righteous one. Hebrews 10 .38

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is quoting from Habakkuk 2 .4, which is the same verse Paul quotes in Galatians 3 .11 to say that no one is justified before God by the law because the righteous will live by faith.

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Thus, the Bible here talks about a justified man, and in the Greek, it presents apostasy as a real possibility for him and mentions by saying he can, in fact, apostatize by writing if he draws back,

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I have no pleasure in him. Grammatically, the same man who draws back is the same man who is justified by God and lives by faith.

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The author further acknowledges this does really happen by quoting in verse 39, but we are not of those who draw back to perdition.

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Who are the those who draw back to perdition? Grammatically, they are the just ones from verse 38.

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The subject is the righteous Christian, which means he is the one who does the verb draws back, and if he does, God says

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I have no pleasure in him. Who is a man that God does not have pleasure in him? The justified

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Christian who apostatizes to perdition. Now it's important to stress that such warnings are not hypothetical and are at times biblically documented and it even gives us the name of some apostates.

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1 Timothy 1, 19 and 20, Paul says, some have rejected and have shipwrecked the faith.

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Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander. In Jesus' parable of Sower, he explicitly refers to someone who believe for a while and fall away in time of testing.

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That's Luke 8, 13. So Jesus in clear language says there are people who can believe and then fall away.

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He even taught in John 15, 2 that every branch in his body that does not produce fruit, he, God the

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Father, removes. Hebrews 6 is the most descriptive of apostates. It says they were partakers of the

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Holy Spirit. It says they tasted the heavenly gift and tasted God's good word. The same word for taste is used in Hebrews 2, 9 to see how

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Christ tasted death. So taste stands in for the true experience of something. The language couldn't be any clearer and such language cannot be applied to anybody but to those who are born again.

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Now, someone might object and quote 1 John 2, 19, which says, they went out from us, but they were not of us, for they have been of us, they would have continued with us.

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But who are the they? Verse 18 says they are the Antichrist. So John isn't saying if apostates leave it's because they were never really saved, but he's saying

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Antichrists depart because they're false teachers. And this is why just five verses later, John tells

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Christians to let that abide in you of what you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you will also abide in the

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Son and in the Father. The reason for this is because that salvation is for the believing one.

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Which moves into what I call positional contingency. The Bible refers to Christians as being saved or perishing.

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First Corinthians 1, 18, Paul says, for the word of cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but is the power of God to us who are being saved.

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So you're either perishing or being saved. To illustrate, John 5, 24 says anyone who hears my word and believes in him who sent me has eternal life.

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Why John 3, 36 says the one who rejects the Son will not see life and said the wrath of God remains on him.

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Both verses only refer to one's position they are in based upon belief or unbelief. But just as we know that people can change from unbelief to belief, so too can someone change from belief to unbelief.

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This allows us to accept both verses which say believers are saved and secured while accepting the warning passage that if they leave, they lose out from this.

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To illustrate this point, John 10, 28, Jesus says I give them eternal life and they will never perish.

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No one will snatch them out of my hand. While Hebrews 10, 26 says if we deliberately go on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.

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Both verses are true and don't contradict each other because each verse deals with either faith or unbelief. But to say that eternal life means you cannot apostatize from John 10 to Hebrews 10 is to go beyond the text unless we want to argue that someone who is unsaved cannot change their position because the

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Bible says they are damned. It is then shown that their spiritual position is contingent and can change and it is not impossible for this to happen.

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Now some can argue that if you're born again, you can't be unborn to which I reply, yes, but you can die. Jude 1, 12 calls apostates twice dead.

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An easy way to say this is it's not either or, it's both and. To illustrate this,

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Paul says in 2 Timothy 2, 12 and 13, if we endure, we will also reign with him. So is that true?

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Yes. Then he goes on to say if we deny him, he will also deny us. So is that true? Yes. So it's both and, not either or.

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And this is consistent with the if passages of scripture such as Hebrews 3, 14. We have become participants in Christ if we hold firmly until the end the reality that we had at the start.

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In verse 1, as I mentioned, he addressed them as holy brothers, holy Christians. So it is Christians who are being told their salvation is conditional if they continue to the end in faith.

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It's important to note this also means that conditional security is not workspace. Conditional security teaches that salvation is all of faith from start to finish as Hebrews says.

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This means conditional security does not teach that if you sin, you're out. The Bible makes a distinction between believers sinning and believers apostatizing or shipwrecked as Paul says.

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Last, for the sake of clarity, the word apostasy literally means away from or going out of something. Apostasy is when a believer goes out from God as Hebrews 3, 12 says.

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It does not mean someone could override God's will. So when Jesus says in John 10 that believers are safe in his hands and no one can touch them or Romans 8 that no one can separate us from God's love, we're not saying

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God isn't sovereign. To quote 2 Timothy 2, 12 and 13 again, if we endure, we will also reign with him.

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If we deny him, he will deny us. Then verse 13, if we are faithless, he remains faithful for he cannot deny himself.

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So if believers endure, they'll reign with God and if they deny him, God will deny them and God is still faithful to his promises.

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So God's sovereignty and Christian apostasy are not at odds with one another but biblically consistent. Apostasy is when a believer who is in the hands and love of Christ goes out for him, not

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Jesus failing or God not being sovereign. This also means that tonight's debate is not really about apostasy because we both agree that apostasy can happen.

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It's that the fundamental disagreement is who the apostates are. My position is that an apostate can be a

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Christian and not just a false Christian. So if it can't be shown that a true Christian can't apostatize, then this debate is over.

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Thus, as shown, the Bible teaches apostates can be true, not false Christians, and it doesn't conflict with God and his gospel because God has determined salvation to be conditional.

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So let's recap. Conditional security is a clear, consistent teaching of the Bible. The biblical witness is that God has determined salvation to be by faith, present tense ongoing, and if you're in Christ, you have salvation, security, and assurance, while also telling believers to continue in faith, while also warning them about not falling away from the faith, even telling them what will happen if they do fall away.

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So rather than being at odds with one another, both verses of eternal life and security and assurance are true, while also the verses of the warning and apostatizing passages are true, and we accept both because it's conditional upon belief or unbelief.

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Which means this has real application for us. The application is to endure in our faith till the end, which sticks with the oratory context of encouragement, to continue in faith, and brings meaning to the warning passages.

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When this view is established, it allows the Bible to be consistent—I'm sorry, I jumped over one point, let me get back on track.

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In contrast, the Calvinist position doesn't allow for consistency because of its commitment to its theology, which causes them to reinterpret the warning passages to deny what they clearly teach and strip some of their original meaning, all for the sake of their presupposition.

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Conditional security allows you to have consistency with the Bible and accept both verses without having to create contradiction in the scripture.

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So in closing now, I want to use the rest of my time to offer a challenge to my Calvinist brother. In closing,

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I want to challenge Daniel with this question. Is it logically possible for apostasy to happen in a believer?

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Perseverance of the Saints agrees with conditional security that Christians have an ongoing faith, but say that God is preserving Christians to prevent them from stop believing.

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So it's not that Christians can't stop believing, it's just that they won't stop believing. See, won't and can't are two different meanings. To illustrate, saying that Lucas Curzio won't run for presidency is different than saying that Lucas Curzio can't run for presidency.

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Logically speaking, as the world exists now, there is nothing that contradicts nor can disprove that Lucas Curzio can't run for presidency, in the same way that Calvinists can't disprove nor show conditional security to be contradictory to the

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Bible. Miller J. Erickson, in Commenting on Hebrews 6, says, and I quote, There is a logical possibility of apostasy, but it will not come to pass in the case of believers.

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The grace of God prevents them from apostatizing. End quote. R .C. Sproul, in his book, What Is Reformed Theology, writes,

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The residual power of sin is so strong that without the aid of grace, the believer would, in all probability, fall away.

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So Calvinism agrees with the logic of conditional security, but just says it won't happen because God will preserve them.

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But don't miss what Erickson and Sproul omit. Apostasy is logically possible. So for the Calvinists then, theoretically speaking, apostasy is logically possible for Christians, but just deny that it will happen.

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But not that it couldn't happen. This begs the question of why there are even warning passages. Erickson tries to answer that and says,

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Someone might ask if salvation is sure and permanent, what is the point of the warning passages and commands given to the believer? The answer is that they are the means by which

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God renders it certain that the saved individual will not fall. But this type of logic is equivalent to saying,

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Hell is only a means God uses to prevent people from going there, but not actually possible because God will save all men. It's highly ironic to take what is intended to be a warning to Christians and instead turn it into a guarantee for Christians.

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Yet the Calvinists insist on guaranteeing that apostasy will not happen by asserting God will preserve them. But what if the

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Bible doesn't guarantee this and where exactly does the Bible teach this? The burden of proof then lies with the Calvinists to show where the

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Bible teaches that believers cannot actually commit apostasy. This even creates problems in their view of limited atonement where they say,

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Since Christ was punished for our sins, God can't punish our sins twice, otherwise it's double jeopardy, therefore

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Christ couldn't have died for everyone's sins, otherwise everyone would have their sins forgiven, therefore it's limited to the elect. Just to simplify that, limited atonement says if Christ died for X, X will be saved.

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But then they add and say X will only remain saved because X is granted P, perseverance. So if the

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X Christ died for is only remaining saved by P, perseverance, then logically speaking X could potentially perish.

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But this allows in reality for Christ to truly die for someone who could ultimately perish and undermines the entire premise of limited atonement.

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Now I know someone is going to say, Lucas, this isn't a limited atonement debate. But you better believe this includes it.

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As quoted, Hebrews 10 .26 says that if a Christian continues in sin, Christ's atonement no longer applies to them.

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And someone who Christ died for and who received the benefits of the atonement could actually perish. Hebrews 10 .26

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is echoing Numbers 15 .30 which says if a man defiantly sins, he is cut off from atonement as opposed to someone who can receive atonement if they sin unintentionally.

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The Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 2 .1 when talking about false teachers who apostatize says, even denying the master who bought them.

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Bought referring to Jesus' purchase of redemption. So Jesus' atonement here is linked to apostasy. In verses 20 and 21 of that same chapter of 2

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Peter 2, Peter says, for if having escaped the world's impurity through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in these things and defeated.

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The last state is worse than the first, for it would have been better for them to have not known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy command delivered to them.

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Peter says they escaped the world's impurity by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. In that same book, if you go to chapter 1 verse 3,

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Peter tells Christians his divine power has given us everything required for life and godliness through the knowledge of him.

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The Greek word in both verses for knowledge is epinosis. In Greek the prefix epi adds an intensifier onto the word gnosis which is knowledge.

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So Peter uses epinosis to refer to the true knowledge of salvation and the apostates who have been bought by Christ escape the world's impurity through the epinosis, which is what

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Christians have in 2 Peter 1. Thus, Peter says apostasy happened to those who experienced the true knowledge of salvation and links it to denying the atonement of Christ.

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To quote another verse in connection with this, Hebrews 10 .29, it says, how much worse punishment do you think the one who will deserve who has trampled on the

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Son of God, who has regarded as profane the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified and who has insulted the spirit of grace?

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This is talking about the apostate who was regarded as profane the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified. So he was sanctified. Only Christians are sanctified.

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The scriptures emphatically teach that someone who Christ died for and who received the benefits of atonement could actually perish.

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So if my brother Daniel wants to be consistent, I'll have to argue not that apostasy can't happen but just that it won't happen.

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This means he can't disprove conditional security because he can't show this to be a contradiction or an inconsistency even in his system.

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And we even have Calvinists like Sproul and Erickson admitting this. And on top of that, he'll be undermining his doctrine of limited atonement, which is directly linked to apostasy.

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So I look forward to him answering my challenge. This question reveals too much in his stance that salvation is for the believing one.

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Now, let me just end my opening statement by quoting the Apostle Paul, who warned Gentiles about boasting against the unsaved

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Jews, and he says this, and I quote, in chapter 11, verse 22. Therefore, consider

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God's kindness and severity, severity towards those who have fallen but God's kindness towards you, if you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off.

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So according to this verse, what happens to Christians if they don't remain in God's kindness? This verse has only one answer, and it's either true or not, but if we apply the question of tonight's debate tonight, which is biblical, we find the answer to which is biblical to this question is they'll be cut off.

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That's conditional security. Thank you for your time. All right.

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We'll have Daniel up for his 20 -minute opening statement. All right.

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Before I begin my time, I do want to say thank you to a couple of people. Thank you guys for coming out. The fact that you guys come to something like this, it showed that you guys care, it showed that you guys are willing to listen, and so I pray that you will listen carefully to both sides.

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I want to thank Lucas for flying out here for this important debate. This is a topic that is often clouded by emotions and traditions, and so I pray this will bless you.

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I want to thank Marlon as well for driving out from California to the desert to moderate this debate.

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And lastly, I want to thank my elders at Apologia Church for not only agreeing to host this, but for having my support, and the support of those men means a lot to me.

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So thank you, Zach, Jeff, Luke, and James. All right.

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So just to remind us of the question that's in front of us today, we're asking what's biblical?

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Conditional security, and you just heard Lucas explain it, that a true believer united in Christ can fall away and perish, or perseverance of the saints.

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Just up front, I am not defending what is commonly known as once saved, always saved, the idea that a

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Christian can just profess with his mouth, say a prayer, and he has his ticket punched. I deny that, and perseverance of the saints is a lot more deep and biblical than that.

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It teaches that God gives saving faith, and he preserves those who have saving faith to the end.

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It's not just a profession or a prayer that is prayed. So when it comes to a debate like this, there's one aspect that's very easy, and then there's a couple that are hard, so I just want to lay them out in front of us so we can think about it.

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All right? The easy aspect is we're asking what's biblical? So as Christians, no matter how you walked in here tonight, we can agree the only answer that we should hold to is one that is strictly derived from the teaching of Scripture.

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Sounds simple, right? Well, one of the difficult aspects is if you've been a Christian for any amount of time, you know it's common for people to misuse

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Scripture and sometimes intentionally abuse it. What that usually looks like is what's called proof texting.

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Someone will take a text and isolate it from its context to make it seem like it's saying something that it's not.

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I would argue that's what we just heard. Okay? People do this to deny the deity of Jesus. People do this to deny justification by faith.

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And so tonight, what we can't be satisfied with is a mere, I heard a verse, so it must mean what it says.

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We have to do the hard work and be diligent and say, what's the context? What was said before this?

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Who wrote this to who? And in a debate where we're very limited with time, we can't do that to every text, but we have to try to as much as we can.

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When you go home tonight, study all the context. The next difficult aspect to this debate is both positions being represented tonight are the last step in the theological system.

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In other words, they're the conclusion of what we believe. So I'll give Lucas credit.

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He's being consistent with what he believes in the beginning. Whether or not he wants to admit it, he's a synergist.

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That salvation is a cooperation between man and God. And so since it starts that way, it has to finish that way.

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Jesus died. He gives grace. But you have to maintain in your own strength and the faith, otherwise you fall away.

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While perseverance of the saints is monergistic, there is one work. There's one force at work, and that is the work of God.

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So what can happen is, because this is the last step in the theological system, we have to challenge each other's foundations.

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If we bring up God's election, if we bring up the deadness of man in sin, it's because all this leads to what we believe on this topic.

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Now what I don't want to happen is, is for you to hear so many different streams that we're talking about and walk out of here confused, saying, what did

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I just listen to? So I'll just make my goal very clear tonight. My goal is to show the scriptures teach the reason why a true

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Christian cannot lose their salvation is because salvation is a work of God and God alone.

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The scriptures teach clearly from beginning to end that salvation is of God. And it's impossible for God to not finish what he started.

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When God puts his hand on something, he will accomplish it and he will finish it. We'll see that in scripture.

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The biblical authors see the certainty and the guarantee of your salvation directly connected with God's power to save.

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So in other words, the biblical authors believe in perseverance of the saints because they believe God is a perfect savior.

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To say that at one point somebody can have salvation and then not have it was to say

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God has failed in this area. Now I know Lucas won't want to say that. I credit him for not wanting to say that.

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I don't think any Christian should want to say that. But that's the way the biblical authors see it. So let's go to some text to actually prove this now because we're asking what's biblical.

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And just up front, we shouldn't be surprised that we're going to see each person in the Trinity directly involved with our salvation.

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All right, so Ephesians 1. If you're familiar with Ephesians 1, how does it start? God chose you in Christ before the foundations of the world that he predestined you to adoption.

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Right? And he did all this, why? According to the counsel of his will. So Paul lays out this massive, beautiful truth that God chose you in Christ before the foundation of the world that he predestined you to be adopted according to his will.

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And what does he say? In verse 13, he says, in him, this is Jesus, you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, believed in him and you were sealed with the promised

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Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it.

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Okay, Paul actually expands upon this sealing in chapter four. Listen to what he says.

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In verse 30, he says, and do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

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He tells us what we're sealed for. You're sealed by the Holy Spirit and you're sealed for the day of redemption.

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So the question is, can the Holy Spirit fail to seal you? Can he not seal you until that day?

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If we're actually going to buy the idea that you could thwart that purpose of the

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Holy Spirit, then we'd have to say the Holy Spirit cannot seal you perfectly. Let's look at the father in first Peter chapter one, starting at verse three.

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Okay, follow this, blessed be the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to his great mercy, he has caused you to be born again.

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Now stop. Remember what Paul did earlier. God chose you in Christ. God predestined you to adoption.

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And in light of that, you're sealed here. He says, Peter says, God caused you to be born again.

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Not you and God. God caused you to be born again. And what's his conclusion? He said he caused you to be born again to a living hope, to the resurrection of Jesus.

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He says, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, unfading, kept for you in heaven.

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And Christian, this should give you comfort tonight. He says, who by God's power are being guarded through faith.

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You see, both sides believe that salvation is conditional upon faith. But we believe different things about faith.

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I believe faith is a gift from God. Therefore, he sustains me in that faith. He guards me in that faith.

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Here's the question to you tonight. What power would you want to guard you other than the power of God himself?

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Is there any greater power that you can conceive of? And if he's guarding you in faith, then if you fall away, has he failed?

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All this is in the context of salvation. Romans 8, a very, very familiar passage.

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Let's listen to it. Paul lays out the golden chain of redemption. Without failing, God foreknows people, which is a verb, it's an action, it's something

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God does. Okay, he enters into intimate relationship. God foreknows, he predestines, he calls, he justifies, and he glorifies.

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Okay, this is an unbreakable chain. And what does Paul say in light of that? Listen to what he says.

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He says, what then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

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So Paul is looking at this golden chain, how it's a work of God from start to finish. And he sees that as God being for him.

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And if God is for him, nobody can be against him. But it actually gets deeper. Listen to what he says.

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What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own son, but gave him for us all, how will he not with him graciously give us all things?

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Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? This is who's in mind here. Okay, the elect of God. It is

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God who justifies who is to condemn. Christ Jesus is the one who died. More than that, who is raised at the right hand, who is interceding for us.

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Remember the intercession. We're going to come back to that later. But follow Paul's thought, okay? He says, who shall separate us from the love of God?

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Who shall separate us? Tribulation, distress, persecution, famine, nakedness, danger, or sword, as it is written, for your sake, we are being killed all the day long.

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We are regarded as sheep to the slaughter. No, in all these things, we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

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For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things to come, nor things present, nor height, nor depth.

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And if you have your Bible and your highlighter, highlight this part. Nor anything else in all creation can separate you from the love of Jesus Christ, our

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Lord. Nothing in creation. Lucas just got up here, looked at you in the eyes, and said, you, a creature, part of the created order, could actually separate yourself from the love of God if you don't continue in faith.

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It's directly against what Paul has said. Nothing in creation. John 6, another familiar text, which

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Lucas quoted from, and I'm glad he did. But what's the context of John 6? Jesus is addressing the unbelief.

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Jesus just fed 5 ,000 families. He did a miracle. These people follow him across a lake, and he tells them in verse 36, but I have said to you, you've seen me, yet you don't believe.

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Okay? Listen to what he says next. All that the Father gives to me will come to me.

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So now he's contrasting. He says, you don't believe, but the ones that the Father gives me, they will believe they will come.

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All that the Father gives to me will come to me. Whoever comes to me, I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my will, but the will of him who sent me.

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And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

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Now, there are people who try to do gymnastics around this text, and they'll say, well, if you walk away, that's not

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Jesus losing you. But Jesus said in order for him to do the will of the Father, he has to do two things.

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He can't lose any, and he has to raise it up on the last day. So even for a minute,

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I buy this bad interpretation that you could walk away, and that's not Jesus losing you. He still would fail to raise you up on the last day, and Jesus would fail to do the will of the

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Father. Now, which Christian in the room tonight wants to actually say it's possible for Jesus to not do the will of the

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Father? This is consistent with what

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Jesus teaches, especially in the Gospel of John. In John 10, again,

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Jesus is addressing unbelief. They come to him and say, Jesus, just tell us.

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If you're the Messiah, tell us plainly. And what does Jesus say? He says, I told you, but you don't believe.

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And why is it that they don't believe? He says, because you're not among my sheep. And then he makes another contrast.

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Listen to what he says about his sheep. He says, my sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me.

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I give them eternal life, and they will never perish unless they walk away.

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That's not what it says. It says they will never perish. He's looking at people, and he's telling them, you're not my sheep.

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My sheep, they will never perish because I give them eternal life. Now, of course, the faith is a continuing faith.

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We believe that, but it's because it's God who gives you saving faith, and he holds you in that faith.

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Now, we have to consider the intercessory work of Jesus. Jesus praying on our behalf, being an advocate to the

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Father. We already heard it mentioned in Romans 8. But if you look at Hebrews, where Luke is quoted from a lot, in Hebrews chapter 7, the author starts to make a distinction between the

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Levitical priest and Jesus priesthood. And this is what he says in verse 23. He says, the former priests were many in number because they were prevented by death from continuing in office.

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Okay? In other words, the old priests, they were just men. They died, and when they died, they had to be replaced.

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Listen to what he says. But he holds his priesthood permanently because he continues forever.

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So Jesus was resurrected. He's in the flesh. He's alive, and he's a priest forever. What does the author say in light of that?

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He says, consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God since he always lives to make intercession for them.

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This is why Jesus is able to save forever. There's two reasons. One, he's still alive, so he's not being replaced.

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And two, he's interceding for them. This is why Jesus is able to save forever because he's interceding for you.

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Now, we're actually given a couple examples of scripture of this happening, and I think we have to look at it because it's beautiful.

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In Luke chapter 22, Jesus is foretelling the denial of Peter. And listen to what he says.

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He says, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail.

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And listen to what he says next. And when you have turned again, strengthen the brothers. Jesus is telling

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Peter to his face, Satan wanted you, and he wanted to sift you like wheat, but what?

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I've prayed for you. And what did he pray for? That his faith wouldn't fail.

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So, what does Jesus say? It's a guaranteed return. When you come back, strengthen the brothers.

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Peter should have understood this. He goes on to say, Jesus, I'm ready to go with you to prison. I'm ready to go with you to death.

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And Jesus tells him, before the rooster crows, you'll deny me three times. But we know Peter returned.

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We know Peter stayed in the faith. Why? According to Jesus, because he prayed for him. We actually see

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Jesus praying for his disciples in John 17 in the garden. Listen to what he says. He says,

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I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those whom you have given me.

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Sound familiar? Those whom you've given me? For they are yours, all mine are yours, and yours are mine.

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I am glorified in them, and I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world. I am coming to you.

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Now, listen to this. This is Jesus' prayer for his disciples. He says, Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me.

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That they may be one, even as we are one. Jesus is asking the

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Father to keep his disciples. Do you think the Father is going to tell Jesus no?

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Do you think he's going to say, well, they didn't want to continue, so I let them go.

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If that doesn't affect you, Jesus actually prays for you in John 17. He switches from praying to his disciples to praying for everybody that would believe after them.

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And listen to what he says in verse 24. Father, I desire they also, this is us, whom you have given me, may be one.

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They be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you have loved me before the foundation of the world.

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Jesus in his high priestly prayer prayed to the Father that those whom the Father gave him, that they would be with him in glory, that they would see his glory.

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Now can that prayer fail? Can the triune God actually try to save somebody and it not happen?

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The reason why my opponent tonight holds the position he does is because he believes salvation is a cooperation no matter how he puts it.

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And I know he won't want to say, he denies faith plus works, I get that. But at the end of the day, if it's

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God has done everything he could and your salvation is dependent, it's conditional upon what you do, then it's you and God working for salvation, causing

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Jesus to have to fail in these texts or just be a liar when he says my sheep will never perish.

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If you're a Christian in this room tonight, Jesus is your shepherd and you're his sheep and he will not fail to keep you to the end.

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This is consistent with what we see in scripture. All throughout scripture, we see the biblical authors teaching the idea that Jesus is able to keep those whom he intends to save to the end.

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Listen to the last part of Jude, it says, now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy.

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To the only God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority before all time, now and forever.

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Did you hear that? To him who is able to keep you, this is what the biblical authors believe.

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Now, we heard a lot about apostasy and we'll have to define that.

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We'll have to go to the biblical text to see is apostasy actually a true believer who's united in faith, leaving and actually giving up or losing their salvation or is apostasy people who profess faith and actually show that they never really had faith.

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We're going to have to examine the text, we're going to have to look at the context, but tonight I want you to remember this, that what's at stake, what's being put in front of you is the work of salvation.

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And every Christian knows in their heart of hearts, the only reason why they're saved, the only reason why they believe is because God gave them grace.

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This is why Jesus says, no one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him.

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In verse 65 of John chapter six, he addresses unbelief again. He's looking at people and he tells them, there's some of you here who don't believe.

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He says, this is why I told you no one can come to me unless it's granted to them by the father.

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So even Jesus is making this connection of salvation starts with the father. It starts with his giving, his granting, his drawing.

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And because it starts there, he says, I will raise you up on the last day. As we, as we go on throughout tonight,

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I want you to remember, we have to consider all the biblical texts. We have to consider what the authors are trying to say and not just take one verse at a time.

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I was very intentional to show you that the context of all these verses, Ephesians one, Romans eight,

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John six, John 10, they're all salvation. And so we know Jesus isn't lying. Thank you for your time.

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Thank you both for those opening statements. At this time, we'll begin our rebuttal round, starting with Lucas. You got a 10 minute rebuttal.

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Time goes up by so fast when you're up here. Okay, well, thank you, Daniel, for your opening statement.

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And I realized that was his opening statement. So you know, I can kind of tell that he has a lot more to talk about, and that's fine. But what he did talk about, you know, let me just first start out by asking you the audience a question.

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And the question I want to ask you is, if a man who is married leaves his wife in divorce, does it imply that he was never in a spiritual union with her?

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Let me ask the question one more time, so we really understand it. If a man who is divorced leaves his wife, does it imply that he was never married?

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Well, for all of us, it's no. But if your account is kind of like, well, yeah, because if we take what

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Perseverance of the Saints says is true, then what we're saying is, you know, if somebody leaves or if Lucas leaves this debate halfway tonight, he was never there.

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And we can see how that logic just doesn't follow. See, it's not enough to quote verses like, you know, John 6 and John 10 and say, look, because Jesus says, you know, you're saved, you have security and salvation, therefore, you know,

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Hebrews 10 isn't talking about what it's talking about. Because you know, you know, the claim was kind of made tonight where it's kind of like,

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I'm not really dealing with these texts. And it was kind of like a vague presentation, you know, I'm not trying to be too harsh here.

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But you know, what do you mean? Because, you know, these warning passages are saying what they're saying, and they're very serious, and they're equally the word of God.

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So it's not, okay, well, which is true? Is it John 10? Is it John 6? Or is it Hebrews, you know, 10 or Hebrews 6? Well, it's, as I said, it's, they're both true.

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So it's not pitting one against, you know, each other. Because again, if you apply Perseverance of the Saints, you have logic that just doesn't work.

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Yet we're being told to believe this logic. Let me, you know, say how Daniel talks about how things are, you know, synergistic versus monergistic.

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And, you know, it's fair enough to get into this, because, you know, it's a classical Arminian Calvinist, you know, debate ground.

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Let me just say, if Jesus says to us in a clear language that this is the will of my Father, that everyone who is seeing the

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Son, present tense, ongoing, and believing in it, present tense, ongoing, and I will raise him up on the last day, it doesn't matter what you call that.

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That's just what it is. Jesus says this is the will of God. So this is, Jesus is telling us, hey, listen, I'm telling you what God's will is for salvation, and it's conditional.

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So when we quote, you know, verses like John chapter 6, where, you know, no one can come to me, Arminians hold to that, and I'm an

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Arminian, if it's not obvious, Arminians hold that man, because of total depravity, is totally unable, so God has to draw them.

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We believe that they must be drawn, and everyone who is drawn will be raised up and saved. So the man that Christ raises up is the same man who

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God draws. Why? Because nobody can be saved apart from that. And God's will is for specific people, and he will lose none of that.

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You know, you say, well, Lucas, why are you an Arminian? Because it's conditional upon verse 40.

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See, I can't just quote to you, you know, John chapter 6, 37, verse 44, oh, you know, let me just jump over verse 40.

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Again, is it one, this verse is true, and that verse is not true? Or do we interpret the whole context, the whole scripture?

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And we've got to ask ourselves this question, what's consistent tonight? Because, you know, I don't have to get up on the stage and redefine, you know, apostasy for you.

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Well, what's apostasy? It's a believer who falls away. You know, I don't have to jump through these theological hoops and, you know, do a lot of finagling.

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I mean, it is what it is. Either it's God's word or it's not. He kind of talks, you know, about Ephesians 4, and, you know, he talks, you know, jumps from unconditional election to perseverance.

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It wasn't must -acts of Jesus. I understand what he's trying to do, but it doesn't follow Ephesians 1, 4, therefore perseverance of the saints.

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You know, maybe he can ask me that more on my turn. He talked about 1 Peter 1, and you know, this is, you know, it's almost like you can't make this stuff up here.

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When he says you are kept by the power of God for salvation, you cannot just say, look, Calvinism, kept by the power of God for salvation.

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Well, read the rest of the verse. It says through faith. So does that mean something?

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Is that true? Is God preserving us? Are we kept by the power of God through faith or not?

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Because Peter says it is. So again, you know, we can't just, you know, quote verses that seem to fit in with us and just ignore it and act like they don't exist.

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And that's what we're doing with John chapter 6. You know, again, it's conditional salvation, Jesus says in John 6, 40.

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So the man who Christ draws is the man who has a present act of faith, he says in verse 40 again. So, you know,

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I'm going to keep on quoting that because that's very, very important. He says, you know, both sides believe in conditional salvation.

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Well, no, no, not really, because I believe that John 20, 31, that by believing you may have life in his name.

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That's a lot different by saying, hey, God's going to elect you to salvation and then regenerate you before faith.

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I mean, that is totally inverting the system, which is clearly consistent in the scriptures.

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Hey, if you believe you're saved. So it's no, it's not really true that we both believe in conditional salvation, because in your view,

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I mean, you say unconditional election. So I mean, that's not true. He talked about, you know, he made statements like, you know, has he failed?

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You know, would God do this and that and Jesus won't lose none of them and he'll do the will of the Father. And this is really common among Calvinism.

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And let me just say this, it's, you know, the goal of tonight's debate is to not get up here and just say some pious terms. And whoever says the most pious things that Christians couldn't possibly disagree with, you know, wins the debate.

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I mean, you know, if I did that tonight and say, you know, Jesus won't fail to do this and God, you know, God is sovereign, wouldn't you, you know, be satisfied that, hey,

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Lucas was really right in what he said? Because it begs the question, if both of us are saying, yeah,

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Jesus won't fail, God is sovereign, you know, you know, he won't lose any of them, well, so what's the issue?

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Well, the issue is the scriptures. So we've got to go to the scriptures. So you know, we've got to focus on not just these pious terms, but the substance behind these pious terms.

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He quoted Romans 8, you know, and believe me, you know, as I said, we are not saying a believer can override

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God's will and God's sovereignty. But Paul, who wrote Romans 8, he wrote Romans 11.

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So if you interpret Romans 8 in a way that contradicts Romans 11, you have what's called inconsistency.

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And as I said, so what is it? Is it Romans 8 is true, Romans 11 is not true, or is it that they're both true? And Paul understood that to be conditional, which he says, if you don't remain in his kindness, what did

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Paul say? It's irrefutable, this is the word of God, it is infallible, we submit to his scripture.

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And he says, you will be cut off, otherwise you will be cut off. So either that is true or that's not true. And the same

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Paul who wrote Romans 11 wrote Romans 8. And let me talk about Hebrews 7, you know, verse 25,

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Jesus is able to save those forever who come to him. I mean, I'm paraphrasing. But again, ask yourself this question, okay, who is

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Jesus saving according to this verse? Those who come to God. So you know, again, we can't just say, okay, look, this says this, and let me just act like this verse doesn't exist and shoo it away because Calvinism, it doesn't work that way.

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We have to exegete the scriptures. And it says those who are coming to God. And even if you look in that verse, by the way, and that word, those who are coming to God, that's present tense.

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So those who are coming to God, Jesus is saving. Those are the people. He kind of did the same thing, you know, same thing in Jude, you know,

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God is able to keep you. Amen. God is able to keep you. We're not saying he's not. But the same Jude who wrote verse 24, wrote verse 21, keep yourselves in the love of God.

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So again, which is it? Is it one is true and one is not true? He talked about apostasy.

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I gave a pretty solid case that has to be dealed with that this apostate person is not a false

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Christian. And we can't redefine it and say that it's just somebody who falls away from the people of God, who falls away from the proximity of the people of God or the church of God.

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Keep this in mind. There's one verse that will, you know, because this is going to come up tonight, so I want the audience to keep this in mind. Hebrews 3 .12

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says that apostasy, it's warning Christians to not have an unbelieving heart that departs from the living

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God. So according to that verse, apostasy is not going out from the church of God or the proximity of the people of God or people who have, you know, the faith.

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It's departing from the living God. That's apostasy, brothers and sisters. And if you cross -reference that verse of Hebrews 12 .25,

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it says, see to it that you don't refuse him who speaks from heaven. So is it the man in the pulpit that he's saying, you know, don't refuse?

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Or is it the God in heaven that he's saying don't refuse? And either that, you know, either the word of God is true, and I know he believes that or it's not true.

56:16

Let me also talk about how, you know, I mentioned how if you kind of take perseverance of the saints and you apply it to things like hell,

56:25

I'm not saying he does this, but if you apply the logic of what he says, I think it's an argument that has to be dealt with, that you can then say, well, hell is just a means

56:33

God is using to prevent people from committing apostasy. And, you know, I know he didn't go into that too much, but, you know, I hope maybe he can understand it.

56:40

Then he quoted John 6 .65, you know, Jesus says, this is what I said to you, or therefore I said to you no one can come to me unless it has been granted him by the

56:47

Father. When you see a therefore, nobody starts out a sentence with therefore, you know, unless you want to sound really awkward.

56:54

So in hermeneutics, one of the things that we're taught, which is elementary, is every time you see a therefore, you go back and see what it's there for.

57:01

So Jesus is saying therefore, so it's a dependent clause, which is coming off of verse 64, and he says there are some of you who don't believe, therefore

57:08

I said to you no one can come to me unless the Father has, or has been granted him by the Father. So Jesus is saying in clear language, people, that this, hey, this is why some of you are not being granted, because I know you don't believe.

57:19

So if we quote verse 65 without verse 64, that's not being faithful. And I think that I presented a solid argument for the whole, you know, context of Scripture and a deep dive, and I look forward to Daniel offering his rebuttal to my statement and cross -examination.

57:34

Thank you for your time. All right.

57:43

Welcome back, Daniel, for his 10 -minute rebuttal. Okay. Lots of cover and a little time.

57:50

So, question to the audience, is the analogy he gave of marriage a reflection of God's work in salvation?

57:59

Is that how it works, the same way when you find a spouse, is that how God saves you? He mentioned,

58:06

I quoted Romans 8, and he says, but Romans 11, what he's doing is, is he's reading

58:11

Romans 11 back into Romans 8, instead of taking Paul's systematic argument from chapters 1 all the way to 11 to understand what he's saying there.

58:21

Now, we have to, we have to address Hebrews, because Hebrews is often used in this topic, and I think it's often misunderstood.

58:29

So let's just start from the beginning. In chapters 1 and 2, what's happening? There's a very high exaltation of Jesus, right, that he made a purification for sins, he's the final revelation of God, he's the exact imprint, his nature, he created the world, he's sustaining the whole universe by the word of his power, and then in chapter 2, what does he say?

58:49

He says, all things are being put in subjection to him, okay, all high Christology, and then in chapters 3 and 4, the author starts to engage in what he's going to continue through almost the rest of the book.

59:02

He warns of people who didn't enter into God's rest, and he even asked a question in chapter 3, he says, who is it, who are they who didn't enter into God's rest, and then he answers his own question.

59:15

It was those who fled Egypt with Moses, they experienced the miracle, they were a part of that fleeting, but in chapter 4, he says something that's often overlooked.

59:25

In chapter 4, verse 2, highlight this, they were not united with faith. This is why they didn't enter in.

59:33

He tells us why they didn't enter, it's because they weren't united with faith, unlike the other people who heard the message and were united with faith.

59:41

So he continues his argument on, he goes into chapter 5 and he starts to talk about how Jesus is a priest after the order of Melchizedek, but then he chastises his readers, he says because we should be able to address this fuller, but you guys become dull of hearing, you guys are immature as Christians, you guys still need milk while you should need meat, and then he goes into chapter 6, and he makes a connection between the immaturity of the people who are professing

01:00:08

Christ to apostasy. He says it's impossible in the case of those, and he lays out that list, verses 4 and 5, tasted the heavenly gift, partakers of the

01:00:18

Holy Spirit, so on and so forth, and Lucas is so sure that that's talking about believers, that those people had salvation.

01:00:25

Well, let's read just two verses down. Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things, things that belong to salvation, things that belong to salvation.

01:00:42

Everything he just listed above doesn't belong to salvation. Those are all common gifts that if you're a unbeliever who makes a false profession, you're going to partake in the goodness of the church.

01:00:53

You're going to hear God's words preached, you're going to be in the community of saints, you're going to be around God's people, and you're going to receive benefits that way, but he tells the people in chapter 6, in your case, there's better things, things that concern salvation, and what does he do in chapter 6?

01:01:09

He tells them there's two reasons, there's two strong points for their assurance in faith. He says it's that God cannot lie when he makes a promise, and he's going to tell us what that promise is in a couple of chapters, but one, it's

01:01:21

God cannot lie, and two, he says we have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

01:01:41

After saying there were these false believers who fell away, he says in your case, there's better things, things that concern salvation, he says you have

01:01:49

God's promise that when God makes an oath, he cannot lie, and you have the finished work of the high priest, that he went through the veil, and he actually accomplished your salvation.

01:01:59

Then in chapter 7, he starts this pattern where he keeps making contrast between the old and the new.

01:02:05

In chapter 7, he says there's a better priest, right? Remember Jesus, he lives forever, so he makes intercession forever.

01:02:12

He also says in chapter 7, for it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest who was holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens.

01:02:25

He has no need like the old high priest to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own, and then for those of the people.

01:02:33

He's making a contrast, okay? Jesus is a better high priest because he lives forever, he can save to the uttermost.

01:02:41

In chapter 8, he says there's better promises, listen to this, but as it is,

01:02:46

Christ has obtained a ministry that is much more excellent than the old, as the covenant that he mediates is better since it is enacted on better promises.

01:02:57

For if the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look forward to the second, okay?

01:03:04

He says this covenant has better promises, and then he gives us a quote of what that promise is.

01:03:09

Listen to this, for I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.

01:03:17

That's a promise that God cannot lie about. You have a better high priest, you have better promises, and then in chapter 10, you have a better sacrifice, listen, for by a single offering, he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

01:03:35

And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us, and then he gives another quote, listen to this,

01:03:42

I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more. His whole argument is, we have

01:03:49

Yahweh in the flesh. He is a better priest, so he saves perfectly, unlike the old priests.

01:03:56

He has better promises that when he forgives your sins, he doesn't take that back. And since his sacrifice is not the blood of calves and goats, it's his own blood, he perfects those for whom the sacrifice was made for.

01:04:10

And so we see that the idea that Hebrews 6 is teaching those are actually

01:04:17

Christians, he says, for you we have better things. But he actually does the same thing in Hebrews 10.

01:04:23

In Hebrews 10, he says that there are people who shrink back, he says, but we're not of those people.

01:04:30

Why? Then he goes into the faith chapter, because they have faith the same way that Abraham, Moses, and everybody in that chapter had faith.

01:04:40

Remember what I said about isolating a text out of its context, ripping it out and saying this is what it teaches?

01:04:47

When you read the whole book of Hebrews, it would undermine the author's whole purpose to say that Jesus is a better priest, better promises, he cannot lie, better sacrifice, but you can still thwart

01:05:00

God's promises. I know when God makes an oath, he cannot lie, he said he'll forgive your sins, but if you don't keep through, then he won't keep that promise.

01:05:09

You see why this matters. Hebrews is not teaching a true Christian can lose their salvation.

01:05:15

The author of Hebrews is writing to a group, the same way I'm speaking to a group tonight, and I can't know who in this room is elect and not elect.

01:05:25

So he gives warning, because during that time, people were going back to the temple, they're going back to make a sacrifice, and those are the people that he's warning against.

01:05:34

He's saying if you go back, if you go and you make the sacrifice, then you do what?

01:05:40

You trample foot under the Son of God. You're saying his sacrifice wasn't enough, so you've gone back and you sacrificed the lamb.

01:05:49

In light of what Scripture teaches, it's irrefutable that Jesus will not fail. This cannot be for believers.

01:05:57

Now, at one point, I couldn't hear him clearly, he said something to the effect of, well, quoting

01:06:04

John 6 and quoting John 10 and saying that his sheep will never perish, that's, you have to look at Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10, but all

01:06:12

I was doing is was quoting Scripture. If Jesus says they will never perish, what does that mean?

01:06:19

If Jesus says that he will raise them up on the last day, what does that mean? We've already demonstrated that Hebrews 6,

01:06:26

Hebrews 10 is not about believers. What about 2 Peter chapter 2 that he quoted from, the master who bought them?

01:06:33

Where is Peter quoting from? From Deuteronomy. And what's the quote in Deuteronomy? That there was people who left

01:06:39

Egypt, and he says, what are you going to do, you going to repay God? Those people who left

01:06:45

Egypt had an unbelief heart and they were still judged. The same way that these false teachers, they were around the church, they had the benefits, he's now comparing them to the false prophets in the past.

01:07:00

Nowhere in 2 Peter does Peter mention the atonement, the extension of the atonement, who it's for,

01:07:06

God's sacrifice, he doesn't mention that. He's talking about false teachers. He says they escaped the defilements of this world, and again, if you're someone who is around the church, you're naturally going to experience the good gifts of the church.

01:07:22

But like the parable of the sower that he mentioned, if you're a seed that is not planted by God, you will either be choked out or you won't grow at all.

01:07:32

Your fruits will say whether you have saving faith or not. So as we go on tonight, listen very carefully.

01:07:39

Think about all the context and think about what's being said. Thank you. All right.

01:07:52

At this time, we'll be entering into the favorite part of every debate, which is the cross -examination.

01:07:57

Once again, it's going to be a total of 40 minutes. Both parties will get 20 minutes each to cross -examine their opponent.

01:08:03

In this cross -examination, let's make sure we ask the question directly. If you can answer the question with a simple yes or no, please do so.

01:08:10

We don't want to turn this into a monologue. This is a dialogue. So I'll be interrupting if I feel that the leading into the question is too long.

01:08:20

Let's make sure we get right to the question and give a direct answer. Also, audience, I have yet to see anybody put a question in the boxes back there.

01:08:28

So make sure that you are putting questions in those boxes so we can make sure we have a great

01:08:33

Q &A at the end of this debate. Now, that said, Lucas, you're up first for your cross -examination of the day.

01:08:43

Thank you. Can you hear me? Yeah. Okay, good. All right. Thank you, Daniel, for your opening statement and your rebuttal. So my first question to you is, is it your position that God is preserving the

01:08:52

Christian to prevent them from apostatizing? Is that your position? Yes. Okay, so if God doesn't preserve them, logically speaking, could they fall away?

01:09:03

If God is preserving them, could they fall away? No. No, no, no. I said, if God doesn't preserve them, logically speaking, could they fall away?

01:09:11

If God doesn't preserve them? Yes. If God doesn't preserve them, could they logically fall away? Well, that would entail me to change what

01:09:19

I believe about salvation in the first place. Hypothetically, if God wasn't preserving them, then

01:09:24

I guess you could come to that conclusion. Okay, so the person that Christ died for, logically speaking, they could perish?

01:09:36

Yeah, that's what Jesus says in John 6. So limited atonement isn't true then? No, I never said that.

01:09:43

I don't understand how you're making that conclusion. Right, so limited atonement says if Christ died for X, X will be saved.

01:09:48

But then you say perseverance, God grants them P, perseverance, so preventing them from not being saved.

01:09:55

So logically speaking, the person Christ died for could actually perish. No. You asked me, the first question you asked me was, is if God isn't preserving them, could they fall away?

01:10:06

I said, hypothetically, yeah. Right, logically, right? Yeah. Yeah, I don't believe that's the case. God is preserving them since that's what we're told in Scripture.

01:10:13

Wait, no, I know what you believe. I'm asking you though. If you're saying that the person that Christ died for isn't being preserved, that person could, as R .C.

01:10:23

Sproul says, in all probability, fall away. Yes, but I don't believe that's the case. I believe God is preserving every single person who

01:10:30

He died for. Right, I'm not asking what you believe, I'm asking you the implications of it. So you're saying that in theory or logically, somebody that Christ died for could actually perish.

01:10:41

No. Didn't you just say it did, yes, a couple minutes ago? Hypothetically, that would only be the case if God didn't start salvation.

01:10:49

Since God does start salvation, He finishes it. So since John 6, those who the Father gives come,

01:10:55

He will raise up. That's the line. That's the equation. Right, and again,

01:11:01

I know what you believe, but I'm asking you, if you're telling us that this is why we should believe limited atonement, yet you're admitting

01:11:07

Christ could actually die for somebody and it could go to hell. No, I don't. Okay, if I'm saying that, I'm sorry. I reject that.

01:11:13

I do not believe that. So it's not logically possible? No, it's not possible. So now you're backtracking?

01:11:19

I mean, I'm not trying to be mean here. No, no, no. I'm saying, I was granting a hypothetical. I don't believe that's what the biblical text teaches.

01:11:25

I don't believe that's actually true with what reality, how God established reality. That's not true. It's a hypothetical.

01:11:30

If you want to grant on a hypothetical, I'll give it to you. So again, so I mean, just so I'm clear, so it is, so is apostasy logically possible or not?

01:11:40

Apostasy happens. For a true believer, the Bible says it can happen. Right, I know, but in this context I'm talking about, for a believer, is apostasy logically possible?

01:11:46

No. Jesus raises all those who the Father gives. I guarantee you. Just so I'm clear, do you disagree with Miller J.

01:11:53

Erickson and R .C. Sproul? Yes. If they are saying that it's possible for a

01:11:58

Christian to fall away, I disagree with that. Do you understand that Perseverance of the Saints is saying that God is doing something to prevent something from happening?

01:12:06

Yes, I understand that. Okay, so if God isn't doing something to prevent something from happening, that person could then perish.

01:12:12

Your mistake is you're saying it's possible for God to not do that. I say it's impossible for God to not finish the work he started.

01:12:19

It is impossible. Right. No, again, I get what you're saying, but I'm asking you, if God is doing—so what is

01:12:25

God preventing them from doing? He who is faithful will keep you from stumbling and present you blameless.

01:12:31

He's keeping them from abandoning the faith. The way he told Peter, I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail.

01:12:37

Right, so are you not saying that God is doing something to prevent something from happening? I am saying that.

01:12:43

God is preventing the believer from falling away. So wouldn't logic tell us then, if you apply that, the person

01:12:49

Christ died for could perish if God isn't doing this? No, because you're not granting what I'm saying before.

01:12:55

What I'm saying before is because salvation is a work of God, because it is the Father who gives them, the

01:13:01

Son will—it's impossible for him to not raise them. You're not granting one part of my belief. I get what you're saying, but I'm asking you to put this in a logical syllogism.

01:13:09

If you put this in a logical syllogism, if Christ died for X, X will be saved. X is then granted P, perseverance.

01:13:14

No, I reject that. X is granted P. He has to be, because God says he won't let that happen.

01:13:21

Right, so therefore the premise, if Christ died for X, X will be saved is not true, because X is only saved because of P.

01:13:28

No, that's not true. What you're trying to do is you're trying to separate the doctrines. What I said in my opening statement is it's impossible to separate these doctrines, which is why we have to challenge each other's foundations.

01:13:37

What I try to show you from the biblical text is in Ephesians 1 and 1 Peter and John 6 and John 10 and Romans 8, they all acknowledge

01:13:45

God's work in salvation happening first, and because that happens, they will be raised up.

01:13:52

Right, right. Again, I know what you believe, but what you're saying is against what the logic of your system is.

01:13:59

I'm just quoting to you scripture. Well, I mean, I mean, you know, I mean, just to quote again, Miller, J. Erickson, R .C. Sproul, they see this, but let's move on because I have other questions to ask you.

01:14:08

So in Hebrews 1038, who is the man that God doesn't have pleasure in? The one who shrinks back.

01:14:16

Right. So, so who, who is the subject who shrinks back in Hebrews 1038? Someone who had false faith.

01:14:24

No, no. So the text says that now the just, the diakos in Greek, shall live by faith.

01:14:30

So who is a subject? He says, but my righteous one shall live by faith.

01:14:36

Right. If he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him, but we are not of those who shrink back.

01:14:42

Right. No. Okay. I, I know what you believe. I'm asking you who, who is, who is the subject in that verse?

01:14:48

Is it the righteous man or no? No, it's, it's one who shrinks back from faith. Therefore he can't be the righteous man.

01:14:54

So, okay. So, so is it your position then that it's biblically justified to call a non -Christian justified?

01:15:05

Ask that again. Is it, is it your, like, are you saying then it's biblically justified to call somebody who is an apostate, who is not a

01:15:11

Christian justified? No, I would never say that. So when the author says, so the, now the just shall live, shall live by faith, he's speaking to a non -believer?

01:15:20

Is he speaking to a believer? Which, you're quoting verse 38 where he says, my righteous one? Now, now the, the just shall live by faith.

01:15:26

So, so again, the question is who, who's a subject? In verse 38. Yes. The one who shrinks back that his soul has no pleasure in.

01:15:35

Right. Okay. So who's committing the verb, draws back? The one who shrinks back.

01:15:42

The one who, who, who does not live by faith. That's the one who shrinks back. So because, because had he lived by faith, he wouldn't shrink back.

01:15:50

Is it not the just man, just, you know, just so I'm clear, is that your position? So it's not the just man?

01:15:55

No. So, so when he says the just shall live by faith and, but if he, or as ESV says he, you know, some translations say he, other, you know,

01:16:05

I'm in the Greek, it's, you know, it's the same man. So, so just to be clear. So when he says that it's, it's now a different person.

01:16:12

Yeah. The reason why is because you look at verse 39, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls, those are the ones who are mentioned the righteous one.

01:16:20

So, so you don't read verse 38 and then follow verse 39 from there? No, I do. So, so you think that,

01:16:27

I mean, is it your position then that verse 39 is also in a new subject? Like, you know, psych is actually not that person?

01:16:32

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying he's making a contrast since this is following the warning passage, since he's just given a warning, he's saying you are either going to have faith and you're going to live by faith or you're going to shrink back.

01:16:44

That's what the people who are going back to the temple, that's what they were doing. They at one point made a profession. This is the Messiah.

01:16:50

He shed his blood for us. Then they go back and they offer the sacrifice. They're the ones who shrink back who never had faith to begin with.

01:16:56

How do you say, so how do you read a text where it says, and if he shrinks back with the subject, the righteous man, and say, that's a different person, ask the question.

01:17:08

How do you read the text when it says, and if he draws back and you say that's not the same person who is the just, the diakos,

01:17:15

I'm trying to say it again in verse 39, he expands upon what he's saying.

01:17:21

He says, but we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

01:17:29

As I said in my opening statement, those are the verse 38. Let's move on.

01:17:34

Is that a question? No, I'm moving on to my different question because time is running out. Let's go to John 15, 2.

01:17:43

So Jesus says, every branch in me that does not bear fruit, God removes from him. In John 15, 2, where is the location of the branch that is removed from Christ?

01:17:52

Every branch in me that does not bear good fruit, he takes away. They're in him. So is that talking about a

01:17:58

Christian or a non -Christian? This is a parable. So he's making, he's trying to draw a picture they would understand.

01:18:04

He's saying, you have to read verse one. I am the vine and my father is the vine dresser. Jesus is painting himself as a vine.

01:18:11

He says every branch in him that does not bear good fruit is cut away. So are parables true or are parables not true?

01:18:19

No, parables are true, but parables are not always literal. So is it a true parable to say that every branch in me who doesn't produce fruit,

01:18:28

God the Father will remove from him? In me does not mean salvation because Jesus says in verse four, abide in me as I abide in you as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine.

01:18:40

So the branch that bears fruit is the one that actually abides in the vine. Since those who don't bear fruit, they're the ones who weren't abiding in Jesus.

01:18:50

They were a branch attached to the vine. Again, this is just a picture. It's a parable. So is it your position that Jesus is just using a metaphor to say that nonbelievers can be in his body?

01:19:02

No, not at all. Wait, but didn't you just say it's a parable? Yeah, it's a parable, but he's not talking about his body.

01:19:07

He's not actually a vine. Okay, so in this parable then, where is the location of the branch that is removed from Christ?

01:19:14

You said in him. Where's the location of the branch? Yes. It's every branch in me that does not bear fruit.

01:19:19

So it's in the vine. So in this parable, is God the Father taking people out of the body of Christ? Jesus' body is not a vine.

01:19:27

This is an analogy. He says there's branches that are in him, but he says there's branches that don't abide in him.

01:19:34

He makes the distinction we have to deal with him. Wait, can you repeat what you said? You said Jesus... Okay, so Jesus says in verse two...

01:19:40

No, I'm sorry. You said Jesus is not the vine. Is that what you said? No, Jesus' body is not a literal vine.

01:19:46

So the fact that you're taking him... Wait, I'm not arguing. I mean, you know, Daniel, I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing for you. Okay, but the fact that you're taking in me to mean in his body, you just asked me if God is removing people from his body.

01:19:56

So it seems like you're taking it literally. I'm telling you, it's not a literal passage. I said in your view as a parable,

01:20:03

I said, is Jesus saying in the parable that every branch in his body is removed if they don't bear fruit by God the

01:20:11

Father? Yes. Okay, thank you. So in Romans 11 -22, what happens to Christians according to Paul who don't continue in God's kindness?

01:20:22

Romans 11 -22? Yep. Well, I would... Why are you assuming that the people in Romans 11 -22 are...

01:20:29

No, I'm... Well, you can ask your question. So just to reiterate, Romans 11 -22, what happens to Christians who don't continue in God's kindness?

01:20:39

He says for those who fall away, otherwise you'll be cut off. This is similar to what Jesus just said in John 15.

01:20:46

So is this the parable? No, this is not. He's mentioning branches.

01:20:51

He's painting a picture to the people that he would hope would understand, that they would understand. So he's using branches.

01:20:57

He's talking about the Gentiles being grafted in. So is that a reality or is that not a reality for the

01:21:03

Gentiles? The Gentiles were grafted in? No, no, no. No, he says that if they don't continue in kindness, they'll be removed.

01:21:12

Is that a reality for them or is that not a reality? You're saying if they don't continue in kindness? If you continue in his goodness, otherwise you will also be cut off.

01:21:21

Is that a reality for them or is that not a reality? No, it's a reality for them. They're just not... I don't know why you're assuming they're Christians. That's what

01:21:27

I'm trying to... Well, because the context has to do with God grafting in Gentiles into the promises.

01:21:32

Yes. So then he says, sets it up in contra distinction to Israel who has been cut off.

01:21:38

And then he warns them, you watch out essentially, otherwise you too will be cut off. He says if the natural branch wasn't spared, then don't think you're any different.

01:21:47

His whole point was there were people who were part of ethnic Israel who weren't really Israel. He says it himself in chapter two.

01:21:54

So his whole point is... Is Paul talking to Christians there or non -Christians? He's warning people.

01:21:59

He's saying that if you're cut off, that is actually evidence that you weren't a Christian. So when he says, otherwise you too will be cut off, he's really just saying if you do as evidence that you won't.

01:22:12

Is that your position? The same way the Old Testament Jews were also cut off because of their unbelief. Right. So is that your position that he's really just saying if you do as evidence when he says otherwise.

01:22:23

Say it again. So is it your position that when he says otherwise you'll be cut off as if you don't continue in this.

01:22:28

He's really just saying that's his evidence that you were never saved to begin with. Is that your position? Okay. So in Hebrews 6 verses four through six, are the ones who fall in a way the same ones who were made partakers of the

01:22:42

Holy Spirit? In Hebrews six? Yep. Yes. So can unbelievers be made or enter into a union with the

01:22:51

Holy Spirit? That's not what it says. It doesn't say union of the Holy Spirit. Well, partakers. You know, union.

01:22:58

Clearly they can if the author says in verse 19 that they have better things for the people he's talking about. Things that are actually about salvation.

01:23:04

But my question was, can an unbeliever be said to be a partaker of the

01:23:10

Holy Spirit? Yes. Because that's what the author does in Hebrews six. I'm sorry. What's that? Yes.

01:23:15

Because that's what the author does here in Hebrews six. Okay. So the

01:23:20

Bible teaches that somebody can be in a union with the Holy Spirit and not a Christian. That's not what he says.

01:23:26

Well, no. He doesn't use the word union. Right. But if you look at the word partakers, he uses that in chapters three to say that we become partakers with Christ.

01:23:33

If what? In chapter three? Wait. Finish what he said. Chapter three. Well, Christian. So the point is, he's saying that they're in a union with the

01:23:41

Holy Spirit the same way that we are. No, that's not what he's saying. I reject that interpretation. That's not what he's saying. So you just believe then. Okay.

01:23:46

So it's possible then for a non -believer to be unified or a partaker of the Holy Spirit.

01:23:52

Partaker? Yes. Unified? No. No. Because that's not the language that he uses. Okay. In Hebrews 10, 26, what happens if a

01:24:00

Christian continues in sin? That's not mentioning a Christian again. You're taking a passage that is talking about an apostate, someone who is not a

01:24:10

Christian, and you're assuming it's about a Christian. So when he says, after we receive the knowledge of the truth, is that a

01:24:17

Christian or a non -Christian who's receiving the knowledge of the truth? No, that's a non -Christian. There are people who aren't

01:24:22

Christians in this day, especially in this day, who knew Jesus was ... At one point, they made the profession that Jesus was the

01:24:29

Messiah. They knew all the promises, everything that he mentions in Hebrews, and still in light of that, they went back and made the sacrifice.

01:24:36

So when he says, for if we sin willfully, when he includes himself in this, how does that relate to what you said that they're not

01:24:43

Christians? When he says, for if we go on sinning willfully, again, he's making ...

01:24:48

This is a warning to people. The author clearly includes himself in here to say that this severity, this sin of going back, that he says, you trample underfoot the son of God, that you profane the blood of the covenant, that this is such a blasphemous sin before God, if he commits it, then it would be true for him too.

01:25:11

So I'm clear. You're saying this is a hypothetical. Is that your position? No. I'm saying there are people who actually went on sinning deliberately, and for them, they're no longer made to sacrifice for sin.

01:25:24

So okay. So do you disagree with other Calvinists who say, or go down the route, it's a hypothetical as a means to keep them from stop believing?

01:25:32

I don't believe Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10 are hypothetical. I believe that the author is - He's talking about unbelievers, is what you're saying?

01:25:39

Yeah. He's talking about unbelievers. Is there anything in the text, the context that would give you the fact that when somebody who has a knowledge of the truth is an unbeliever, is there anything in the text that can back that up?

01:25:51

Say it again? Anything in the text that - Is there anything in the context that would indicate that somebody who received the knowledge of the truth is not a

01:25:57

Christian? Yes. The whole context itself. Since the person goes on to sin deliberately, since they go and they profane the blood of the covenant, and what's expected for them, he says, a fiery judgment.

01:26:11

Since he just told us in chapter 10 that Jesus perfects all those whom his sacrifice was made for, that person cannot be the person who

01:26:18

Jesus sacrificed and so forth. Just so I'm clear, if the Bible can use language where apostates were, they tasted

01:26:26

God's heavenly gift, good word, partakers of the Holy Spirit, they received the knowledge of the truth, and that's not enough to say that, hey,

01:26:32

Christians can apostatize. How would God communicate otherwise then? He could use language like justification, like he does in Romans 5 .1.

01:26:39

He could say union in Christ, like he does in other places. There's a bunch of language that the authors specifically do not use to make the point that you're saying.

01:26:47

So, again, all that language then is not sufficient to say, hey, a believer can fall away.

01:26:53

No, since the author makes that distinction himself. The author makes that distinction. Where does the author make that distinction?

01:26:59

In Hebrews 6 .9. Okay, so Hebrews 6 .9 is your position, so let's go there. So when he says, but beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, you interpret that to say, by the way, if you fall away, you're never saved to begin with.

01:27:14

No, what he says is, again, you didn't finish it. Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things, things that belong to salvation.

01:27:23

Since he feels there's actually things that belong to salvation, what he mentioned before cannot belong to salvation since it's better.

01:27:30

So if the things in comparison of salvation are in contradistinction to falling away and no longer having room for repentance, would that not then indicate that some

01:27:41

Christians would fall away rather than saying, hey, by the way, if you fall away, you're never saved? No, that your conclusion doesn't follow.

01:27:46

Why not? Because the author says in 9 that he has things concerning salvation that clearly everything mentioned before.

01:27:54

Right, because apostasy is when you fall away from salvation. No, it's not. No, I reject that definition. No, it's not. So what is apostasy?

01:28:00

Apostasy is when someone who makes a profession of faith leaves that faith.

01:28:06

Is there any biblical justification for that? You quoted 1 John. They left us to show that they were never of us.

01:28:12

Just because we got 30 seconds left. So Hebrews 3, 12, it says, beware brethren lest there be in any of you an evil heart unbelief in departing from the living

01:28:19

God. Does the author define apostasy as departing from the living God? Yes, he does.

01:28:25

So apostasy is when a Christian leaves God? No. There are people who can make a profession of faith in the living

01:28:32

God and make all the right claims and what he says is they have an unbelieving heart.

01:28:38

They weren't united with faith like he says in chapter 4. My time is up. Ten seconds left.

01:28:46

All right, ten seconds. Five seconds, real quick. All right.

01:28:51

So it's Daniel, you have now had 20 minutes to cross -examine Lucas. All right. Let's get a drink of water.

01:28:58

All right. So Lucas, I watched a presentation you gave on Arminianism.

01:29:03

Thank you. Arminianism. It was seven affirmations. You said Arminians affirmed penal substitutionary atonement that Christ bore the penalty and punishment for your sins that he died to satisfy the wrath of God making him the propitiation for your sins.

01:29:19

Do you still believe that statement? Yes, amen. Yeah. Would you agree with Paul in Colossians 2 where he says

01:29:27

Christ canceled the record of your debt and he has forgiven your trespasses? Yes.

01:29:32

Okay. So I think there's two questions that arise. If Jesus took your record of debt and nailed it to the cross, if he paid the penalty and the punishment for your sins so that he satisfied the wrath of God, if you fall away, will

01:29:50

God be punishing you for the same sins that Jesus already satisfied? Well, so I would go to the

01:29:56

Bible, Hebrews 10, 26. Yes. They're no longer a major sacrifice for sins. So he will punish you for the sins that he already punished

01:30:03

Jesus for? Yes, because it's conditional. Wow. Okay. Is falling away a sin? Amen.

01:30:11

I'm asking you a question. Is falling away a sin? Yes. Yes. Okay. Since Paul tells us in Colossians 2 that Christ has forgiven all our trespasses past tense, wouldn't

01:30:21

Jesus have forgiven your sin of falling away, therefore you're saved? No, because I mean that's implying,

01:30:28

I mean, you know, what you're doing is you're assuming limited atonement's view where now there's no contradistinction between a redemption accomplished and redemption applied.

01:30:38

Okay. So do you believe as a Christian, your sins are forgiven in Jesus? Conditional upon faith.

01:30:45

So are your sins forgiven in Jesus? Conditional upon faith. Yes? As I said, yes.

01:30:50

So conditional upon faith. Okay, they are. Is it just your past sins or is it your past, present, and future sins? Well, it's the past, present, and future sins.

01:30:56

Okay. So if Christ has forgiven all your sins and falling away is a sin, hasn't he forgiven that sin already?

01:31:03

No, because if God says it's conditional to the believer and then warns them about falling away and tells them what will happen if they don't, no.

01:31:12

No, okay. You also said, quote, predestination is conditional upon faith in Christ, that he has chosen all those who have faith in Christ.

01:31:23

You still believe that? Yes. Okay. So in John 6, Jesus tells us that all those who the

01:31:30

Father gives will come to him. Isn't that the opposite of what you just said in that statement?

01:31:37

No, because of verse 40. So he says, this is the will of my Father. I'm sorry, this is the will of him who sent me.

01:31:43

So Jesus is saying, this is the revealed will of God that everyone's seeing the Son, believing on him, and I'll raise him up on the last day.

01:31:49

Okay. And according to Jesus in John 6, how does anybody look on the Son, even continual faith

01:31:55

I'll grant that. In the Greek, it's continual. How does anybody do that? Well, God's grace has to come to us, otherwise we wouldn't be saved.

01:32:02

Yeah. Isn't it the Father giving them and that's why they come? Well, I'm sorry, can you repeat that one more time?

01:32:08

It's in the Father giving. Okay. In verse 37, what comes first? What comes first?

01:32:13

The giving of the Father or the coming of the people? It's the giving of the Father that comes first in the text.

01:32:18

So if the giving of the Father comes first and then the people come, do you agree with Jesus that coming is believing?

01:32:26

Well, of course, I agree with Jesus, but the question you're asking me is trying to assume certain things of Calvinism where God has to do this and that and this.

01:32:38

I mean, you're not being clear. Okay. So coming is believing in John 6. Do you agree with that? In a simplification way, yes.

01:32:46

Okay. So since coming is believing and Jesus says, no one can come to me unless the

01:32:51

Father grants it to him. You said predestination is conditional upon faith in Christ.

01:32:57

Jesus teaches that nobody can have faith in Christ unless the Father gives them first. So isn't your order of you come to faith and then

01:33:05

God predestines you the reverse of what Jesus says when he says the Father gives you, then you come? No, because it sounds like you're assuming that I believe that somebody can believe apart from the grace of God.

01:33:18

No, I'm a Calvinist. I reject that. No, I said it sounds like you're saying that I believe that.

01:33:23

Okay. All right. Let's go on to verse 39 and 40. So then in verse 39 and 40, he says, for this is the will of my

01:33:30

Father that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day.

01:33:36

So since Jesus is drawing an equation, he says, the Father gives, they believe, and I will raise them up on the last day.

01:33:45

Do you agree that it's impossible for the Father to give somebody and Jesus not raise them up?

01:33:51

Yes, because of verse 40, it's the one, Jesus is raising up the one on the last day who believes.

01:33:58

So you can't just quote verse 37 and 44 and act like verse 40 isn't there. And my position, as I said, it's not that somebody can come to Christ on their own will.

01:34:07

I affirm that somebody has to be drawn by the Father, but I'm also affirming what he says in verse 40, that the one believing in him is who

01:34:14

God raises up on the last day. Is someone drawn by the Father because of their faith in him? Or is someone drawn by the

01:34:20

Father because that's the Father's sovereign will? Of their foreseen faith through the grace of God.

01:34:26

Of the foreseen faith. Okay. So doesn't this contradict what Jesus says? No. Because of verse 64 and 65.

01:34:33

Okay. And what do verse 64 and 65 say? Well, he says, there are some of you who do not believe. And then verse 65, therefore

01:34:38

I said to you, as I said, therefore is a dependent clause on verse 64. I'm sorry, verse 65 is a dependent clause of verse 64.

01:34:46

Okay. So what is, so he tells them, he's looking at people and he says, I tell you there's some of you who don't believe.

01:34:52

And then he says, therefore what? Therefore what? Therefore. So the reason I said to you that no one can come to him is because some of you don't believe.

01:35:00

Okay. What did he say in verse 65? What does verse 65 say? Therefore I said to you that no one can come to me unless it has been granted to him by my father.

01:35:08

Okay. So isn't Jesus teaching here, if coming is believing in faith, that no one can come in faith unless it's granted to him by the father.

01:35:18

So he's teaching that somebody has to be drawn by God to believe. And he's telling people that the reason why some of you are not drawn, the reason why

01:35:26

I'm saying this, you know, as I said, it's an awkward statement to start it off and just say, therefore.

01:35:32

You have to go back and see what it's there for. And it's, it's dependent on verse 64. You just said someone has to be drawn in order to believe.

01:35:40

Yep. But didn't you just say earlier that the reason why the father draws you is because he saw you would believe?

01:35:46

Well, I said foreseen faith, but again, it's not without the grace of God. See you and I both agree that no one can come to him unless it's granted by the father.

01:35:56

That, that's not the disagreement. The disagreement is, is that conditional? Okay. Um, in John 10,

01:36:02

Jesus says his sheep will never perish. Are you one of Christ's sheep? I'm sorry. Am I what? Are you one of Christ's sheep?

01:36:08

Yes. You are. So since Jesus says you will never perish, how can you interpret that in any other way than to mean you will continue in faith?

01:36:16

Well, as I said, he's talking about the believer. Okay. So since, so since you are

01:36:23

Christ's sheep, you will never perish, therefore you can't fall away. Right? Well, as I said, if I'm a believer, that's true.

01:36:29

Are you a believer? Yes. Okay. So you can't fall away. Well, I mean, I kind of feel like I'm repeating myself in my opening statement.

01:36:36

I said, just because of John 10, it doesn't mean Hebrews 10 can't happen. So I said, salvation is for the believing one.

01:36:42

So my position is to the one who believes. I feel like that's not, I mean, I kind of feel like I explained that in my opening statement.

01:36:47

Jesus tells them in John 10, he says that he lays his life down for the sheep and then he looks at people in the face and says, you're not my sheep.

01:36:54

Did Jesus die for those people? Amen. He did die for those people. Yeah. But although he just told them,

01:37:00

I lay my, I'm the good shepherd. I lay my life down for the sheep. And then he looks at people and says, you're not my sheep.

01:37:05

Daniel, that's like saying what Paul says in Galatians 2 .20, that Christ died for me. I wouldn't interpret that to say that, oh, you know, it's only

01:37:12

Paul. I mean, of course he, you know, he's saying, you know, he died for the sheep. It's a true statement, but it's wrong to assume that's automatically exclusive.

01:37:21

I mean, we don't even use that in everyday language. Like I don't say I love my wife and mean I don't love my mom. That's fine.

01:37:27

In Romans 5 .1, Paul says, therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our

01:37:33

Lord Jesus Christ. Have you been justified by faith? Yes. Okay. Since Paul says in Romans 5 .1

01:37:39

that you've been justified by faith and Romans 8, he says, those whom God justifies, he will glorify.

01:37:45

How can you tell anybody in this room tonight that they could actually be justified and not glorified? Well, again, you know,

01:37:52

I kind of feel like I explained this already. It's because it's referring to the believing one. It's referring to the believing one and you're the believing one.

01:38:01

Yes. So you will be glorified. If I am believing on the last day, Jesus will raise me up.

01:38:06

You just told me you were the believing one. Right. But that, again, that, that, that, that's actually not dealing with what

01:38:11

I actually told, told you. I feel like you're, you're, you're assuming something that's prior to what I actually said. Let's go to Romans 8 .39.

01:38:18

Paul says nothing in creation can separate you from the love of God. Are you a part of creation?

01:38:24

Amen. Okay. So how could your not continuing in faith separate you from the love of God?

01:38:31

How can my continuation of what? Your inability to continue in faith would separate you from the love of God.

01:38:39

So it's because you didn't do something. Your position is conditional security. So if you, a creature, don't do something, you separate yourself from the love of God.

01:38:48

Isn't that in contradiction with what Paul says here? No, because you're reading more into the text that, you know, that is there and, and now what you're doing, and I can tell that it's faulty by just going to Romans 11 because you, you can't set up an interpreter.

01:39:00

Are you reading Romans 11 back into Romans 8? Yeah, if I could just finish. You can't set up an interpretation that would, that would contradict and have you to do gymnastics in verse 11 or in Romans 11 to say, this doesn't mean that.

01:39:11

He's talking to an unbeliever. Okay. So are you taking Romans 11 and are you reading it back into Romans 8? Well, well, first of all,

01:39:16

I'm reading the whole book. I mean, that's what hermeneutics teaches us. It teaches us to interpret the, the, the Bible in its whole context.

01:39:22

There is no Romans 8 or Romans 11 in Paul. It's a whole book. So if, if I have an interpretation in chapter 8 that contradicts verse 11, guess what?

01:39:32

It's not that Romans is wrong. It's my interpretation is wrong. I agree. That's sufficient. Um, in verse, uh, in first Peter chapter one, verse five, uh, he says who by God's power are being guarded through faith.

01:39:49

I, I just, I said in my opening statement, we both agree that salvation is conditional upon faith.

01:39:56

The difference is I would say God sustains you in that faith. Do you agree with me that God sustains the believer in faith?

01:40:02

Well, I mean, first of all, I, I don't think it's true that we both agree. As I said, that salvation is conditional.

01:40:09

So you think that I reject salvation is conditional upon faith. Well, when you have a doctrine called an unconditional election, there's only one way to interpret that.

01:40:18

And what follows after unconditional election? If you take the whole acronym of Tulip, right, but that's not a condition then that's just a result.

01:40:25

Okay. So then if it's a result, isn't it true that the person who is unconditionally elected has to have faith if it's a result?

01:40:35

No, because you're assuming, I mean, you know, you want me to assume Calvinism and give you an Arminian answer. I don't, I reject unconditional election.

01:40:42

Okay. So he says that the inheritance they have is imperishable, undefiled, unfading and kept for them in heaven.

01:40:49

What does that mean to you? Well, exactly what it says. Okay. And so you think that when he says it's imperishable, that he's actually teaching their salvation could perish.

01:41:04

Well, listen, if, if, if he says through faith and if I don't interpret that to be through faith, okay, then

01:41:11

I'm not interpreting that. And who's, who's, who's guarding them in that faith? Well, it's God, but if he says you are kept by the power of God, conditional through faith.

01:41:20

That's not what it says. Conditional. Well, I mean, I, you know, that's like arguing, you know, is, is

01:41:25

Trinity a biblical word? You know, you know what I'm saying? So then the text doesn't say conditional. Well, again, but that's like arguing, you know, the text doesn't say, you know,

01:41:33

Trinity. I mean, it's Daniel, it's, it's saying you are kept by the power of God through faith. Okay.

01:41:38

In Luke chapter 22, Jesus tells Peter that Satan wanted to sift him like wheat.

01:41:44

And then he says, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. Why didn't

01:41:49

Peter's faith fail? Well, well, you're assuming Christ prays that, you know, therefore determinism.

01:41:54

I don't know why, you know, you know, you're objecting with, you know, with this question. That's not what I asked you. Why doesn't Peter's faith fail? Because of what

01:42:01

Jesus said, because it's, it's prayer. But if you understand that in a way that's unconditional. Okay. So was it, is it possible, was it possible for Peter to fall away and the prayer of Jesus to fail?

01:42:11

Yes. Because, and just to answer that point more, if you go to John chapter six, Jesus says to the apostles after many of the other, his other disciples left him, do you also want to go away?

01:42:22

So Jesus is telling men who are drawn by the father, do you also want to go away? So he presents us as an open possibility.

01:42:28

Yes. So I just want to make sure I heard you correct. You said it was possible for the prayer of Jesus to fail and Peter actually leave.

01:42:36

No. Well, as I said in my rebuttal, saying things like Jesus is fail, it's not my position.

01:42:42

But you just said, I asked you, was it possible for the prayer of Jesus to fail? No, I know, but you're coming at me with a false question.

01:42:48

I don't believe Jesus is fail. So you, when you said yes, you didn't mean yes, you just said yes. I said, you're coming at me with a question, is

01:42:56

Jesus going to fail? And that's not even my position. Like, I'm not even being engaged in what I believe now. According to Hebrew seven, why is

01:43:01

Jesus able to save to the uttermost? I'm going to Hebrew seven.

01:43:09

Well, one, I mean, you know, the simple answer is, is because he's Jesus. Therefore he's able to save to the uttermost those who come through him, to God through him since he ever lives to make intercessions for them.

01:43:19

So since he ever lives to make intercession for them is the reason why he's able to save to the uttermost. Right.

01:43:24

But that's conditional upon those who are coming to him. Where does it say that in Hebrew seven? Therefore he's able to save those who are the most, those who come to God through him.

01:43:34

So that's a people, those who come. And why do they? So he says in Hebrew seven, those who draw near to him since he lives to make intercession for them.

01:43:43

So Jesus is interceding for people who he, he intercedes for them and then they draw near.

01:43:49

Right. But you realize that my view that the people that Christ intercedes for are believers. Okay. So I'm sorry.

01:43:54

I can ask a question. So you don't know if Christ is interceding for you then? Well, no, I do because he intercedes for believers.

01:44:01

So if you know that he's interceding for believers and this text is about believers and he saves them, you can't fall away.

01:44:09

No, no. Because it says those who are coming, present tense ongoing. Can Christ intercede for anybody who goes to hell?

01:44:16

Yeah. He, Christ can intercede for people who go to hell? Yep. And he has. Okay. And so there are people in hell who

01:44:23

Jesus Christ is, has, was interceding for. Yes. Okay. Um, you said, uh, okay.

01:44:32

Do you believe the Bible teaches that a true Christian can lose their salvation? Well, I mean, I, I clearly said that.

01:44:38

Okay. I'm just, I'm just making sure. Okay. So as, as a whole, you believe the

01:44:46

Bible wouldn't hold my position where I says, where I would say Jesus keeps them from falling. The Bible doesn't teach that.

01:44:53

Well, if, I mean, you know, to, to simplify that, I don't believe the Bible teaches Calvinism.

01:44:59

Correct. Okay. So I believe that Jesus will keep everybody who has saving faith, he will keep them to the end.

01:45:05

Do you believe the Bible teaches that? Well, you just said, I believe Jesus is keeping those who have saving faith. Isn't that conditional?

01:45:11

I'm sorry. I can ask the question again, but you, you just said it. Okay. Let me ask it this way. Let me ask it this way.

01:45:17

Is, does the, does the book of Hebrews teach that a true Christian can lose your salvation? Yep. Okay.

01:45:23

So does the author of the book of Hebrews, does he teach that Jesus literally doesn't have the power to keep you from falling or does he teach that he has the power?

01:45:33

He just won't do anything about it. Well, I, I mean, again, like you're setting up this, this, this, you know, straw man that I don't believe

01:45:40

I, I, my position is not that Jesus is failing. As I said, if, you know, listen, if, if it's

01:45:46

God's will for, for conditional salvation, as Jesus says in John 6 40, God isn't failing in my view.

01:45:52

And you, and you're setting this up as an antithesis between me. Does Jesus have the power to keep you from falling? If yes, he does, but my position is that God has determined salvation.

01:46:04

So you have to engage me on what I believe, not on, not on this assumption of, well, Calvinism. You just told me that you believe

01:46:09

Jesus has the power to keep you from falling. Right. But as I said, God has determined salvation to be conditional.

01:46:16

So I'm not arguing with, you know, a hypothetical world here. Okay. So Jesus has the power to keep you from falling, but he won't do anything about it?

01:46:26

I never said that at all. I said. So will Jesus keep you from falling? Conditional upon faith.

01:46:31

Conditional upon what you do. Conditional upon faith. Okay. As he says.

01:46:37

If, if that's, if that's what the author is, if that's what the author of Hebrews is teaching, why does he constantly point his readers to Christ and not their own faith?

01:46:48

In chapter 12, he says that Jesus Christ is the author and perfecter of their salvation.

01:46:55

So they should look to him. In Hebrews 6, he says that Jesus has gone through the veil. So he seems to be pointing them to somebody who has the power to keep them.

01:47:04

Right. Yes. So first of all, he does say keep believing. He says, exhort one another.

01:47:10

Don't fall away. Keep believing. And yes, of course it's looking to Jesus because that's what faith is. So why would someone look to Jesus if Jesus just isn't going to keep them from falling?

01:47:18

What sense does that make? What? Oh, I'm sorry. Repeat the question. If, if Jesus isn't going to keep somebody from falling, why would the writer of Hebrews exhort his readers to look to Jesus?

01:47:27

Well, I mean, that's just kind of, you know, even more redundant in your view, because if, if he's doing that, why even exhort them?

01:47:33

But you know, the point is the author is saying, keep believing. Don't fall back. This is what happens if you do. Okay. I mean, that's just, you know, irrefutable.

01:47:42

And in 1 Corinthians 1, Paul says, Jesus, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our

01:47:49

Lord Jesus, God is faithful by whom you were called into the fellowship of his son,

01:47:55

Jesus Christ, our Lord. What does that mean to you? That was verse 5 you're quoting? No, verse 8 and 9.

01:48:00

Verse 8 and 9. That he will sustain you and he will keep you guiltless. Well, I, I interpret that again in the whole chapter.

01:48:07

He says in verse 18, being saved, perishing, God, and then verse 21, God is saving those who the foolishness of the preach, those who believed.

01:48:14

So that's for the believer. Okay. We have 40 seconds. Let's try to get one more in. Lucas, if you persevere to the end, will you have eternity and peace with God?

01:48:25

Yeah. Amen. Okay. If someone has saving faith and they don't persevere and they abandon the faith, will they have peace with God?

01:48:33

No. They'll go to hell. Okay. So the ultimate difference between you and someone who does not have peace with God is that you persevered and they didn't.

01:48:42

Correct? Well, it's, it is a matter of faith and unbelief as the Bible says. Yes. Okay. So the only difference between you and someone in hell is that you persevered and they didn't.

01:48:51

I mean, that's what the Bible says. Okay. Let's give him a round of applause for a great cross -examination.

01:49:05

All right. At this time, we'll be taking a 10 -minute intermission. Remember, this is probably a time to get those questions in because I will be gathering those questions.

01:49:14

So see you back here in 10 minutes. All right. So now we are going to move to our closing statements.

01:49:24

And once again, each party will be, will have 10 minutes each for their closing statement.

01:49:31

And Daniel is up first to give his closing statement for 10 minutes. All right. I hope this has been helpful to you guys.

01:49:38

I hope you guys have been listening carefully to both sides. In 10 minutes, I'll try to do my, my best.

01:49:46

I know it's been 10 minutes, but I hope you heard what he said last, that the only difference between him and someone who is in hell is his persevering of the faith.

01:49:59

Who gets all the glory and salvation? I know he'll agree with me. He'll say Jesus, and I'll say yes and amen.

01:50:05

But if the only thing that separates you and someone who is in hell is not the grace of God, then

01:50:13

God doesn't get all the glory. I know. He'll say God's grace is necessary. You need it. He believes in pervenient grace, but is

01:50:20

God's grace sufficient? He believes God gives grace to everybody, pervenient grace, but that grace can fail to keep people.

01:50:28

So I hope you heard that. He said that Christ intercedes for people who are in hell.

01:50:37

People who perished, the better priest who had the better sacrifice, whose covenant was built on better promises, was actually interceding for people, asking the

01:50:50

Father to keep them, and it failed. He said it was actually possible in Luke 22 for Peter to not return, for Peter's faith to fail.

01:51:05

Jesus tells us why his faith didn't fail and why he returned to strengthen the brothers, why he returned to give us two books and the scriptures.

01:51:16

I hope you guys caught what we talked about, penal substitutionary atonement.

01:51:21

He said he believes in that, and so do I. I quoted Colossians 2.

01:51:26

This is my favorite verse in the entire Bible, that God has taken your record of debt and he's nailed it to the cross.

01:51:34

For the Christian, this is comfort. This is a reason to rejoice because Christ has taken your record, past, present, and future, and he's paid for it.

01:51:46

That the Lamb of God shed his blood so that he would perfect you because of his sacrifice.

01:51:52

But he didn't just say that he took your record of debt and nailed it to the cross. He says he's forgiven us past tense of our trespasses.

01:52:01

So I hope you caught it. He at one point did say that God will punish you for the same sins that he punished

01:52:08

Jesus for. But, my opponent says he believes Jesus is the propitiation for our sins.

01:52:15

The problem with that is, is that word tells us that Christ satisfied the wrath of God. How could he satisfy the wrath of God if there's still wrath left for you?

01:52:26

It's not satisfying it. He said he believes Jesus, in Jesus, all his sins are forgiven.

01:52:34

If falling away is a sin, then that sin should be forgiven, unless Christ isn't forgiving that sin.

01:52:40

We talked about the order of John 6, and I hope you guys were following. Jesus makes this very clear.

01:52:47

Every time Jesus talks about the Father giving people to the Son and them coming, it's in the context of unbelief.

01:52:56

So literally in verse 36, he says, you see me, but you don't believe. And then he makes the contrast.

01:53:03

All that the Father gives to me will come to me. In verse 44, they start grumbling.

01:53:08

He says, don't grumble amongst yourself. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.

01:53:14

And in verse 65, I agree, whenever there's a therefore, ask what it's there for. Jesus just told them, there are some of you here who don't believe.

01:53:24

This is why I told you nobody can come to me unless the Father grants it. The order is very clear.

01:53:30

The only reason why any of us in this room tonight are Christians is not because of foreseeing faith.

01:53:37

God didn't foresee something in you that was better than other people. God bestowed upon you,

01:53:44

God gave you the gift of faith. Apart from God, you couldn't believe. This is what Romans 8 teaches, that those in the flesh are unable to please

01:53:53

God, unable. If repenting and believing is pleasing to God, then nobody in the flesh can do it.

01:53:59

This is why in Ezekiel 36, God has to be the one who takes out your heart of stone and gives you a heart of flesh.

01:54:07

Again, the reason why the biblical authors believe in perseverance of the saints is because they believe all of salvation is a work of God.

01:54:15

He didn't just enable you to believe, then he actually gives you the faith, and then he sustains you in the faith.

01:54:21

And all those who the Father gives, the Son will raise up on the last day. He's able to save to the uttermost because his intercession will not fail.

01:54:32

His intercession will not fail. Now, the authors of scripture, when they talk about salvation, they see it as something that's already happened, it's past tense.

01:54:44

But they constantly point believers, especially in their benedictions, to the idea of Jesus keeping you to the end, that he will do it.

01:54:55

And I think this is most clear in 1 Thessalonians chapter 5, verse 23, this is what he says.

01:55:02

Now, may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be kept blameless at the coming of our

01:55:12

Lord Jesus. Listen to this. He who calls you is faithful. He will surely do it.

01:55:21

He will do it. You see, Paul is teaching the church here that Christ is going to sanctify you, he's going to keep you, he's going to present you blameless, and he will do it.

01:55:31

He will not fail. I know my opponent doesn't want to say that Jesus will fail, but that's what his position has to teach if we're going to be consistent with scriptures.

01:55:43

So, the guarantee of our salvation, the reason why you'll wake up tomorrow and still be a

01:55:50

Christian is not because you're more spiritually wise, it's not because you're making a good decision, it's because the

01:55:57

God who is rich in mercy will keep you and sustain you. That's why anybody in this room tonight is a

01:56:04

Christian, and that's why you will stay a Christian. Thank you. Lucas, up for ten minute closing.

01:56:25

As I said, the time goes by so fast up here, I feel like I just got here. As I said in my opening statement,

01:56:30

I am aware that we all have our presuppositions, but they must be tested against the scripture. And if you test the assumption that you can't lose your salvation, you will consistently find that salvation is for the believing one.

01:56:41

And the example I gave was, you know, the Gospel of John, which was frequently quoted tonight. And John says this is the very purpose he wrote his gospel, that by believing you may have life in his name, not by being regenerated before faith or having a salvation that has no conditions or unconditional election.

01:56:55

My friends, you know, and that's the gospel message, right? This means that salvation is conditional upon faith, and for all the believing ones that have eternal life and security and assurance in Christ now.

01:57:04

So as believers, we have the truth of John 10, while we also find the Bible warning the same group of believers, which means true

01:57:11

Christians, not false Christians, that they must continue in the faith, such as Hebrews chapter 3 says, warning them to not fall away, telling them what will happen if they do fall away, because as Hebrews 10 .26

01:57:21

says, their sins are no longer atoned for, which means they lose out from the atonement of Christ. That's the scriptures.

01:57:28

And this is even taught by 2 Peter and Hebrews 10 .29 as well. And the Bible even documents those who have fallen away and even gives us a name of some of the apostates, such as 1

01:57:37

Timothy 1 .19, Hymenaeus and Alexander. And why 1 Corinthians 1 .21 says

01:57:42

God is pleased to save those who believe, Hebrews 10 .38 says, if a justified Christian draws back,

01:57:48

God has no pleasure in him. And as I mentioned, this is not an either or, but both and. Both John and Hebrews 10 are true for Christians.

01:57:56

The quote again, 2 Timothy 2 .12 and 13, this saying is trustworthy. For if we die with him, we will also live with him.

01:58:03

If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will deny us. If we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself.

01:58:12

As Paul says, this saying is trustworthy. So you can trust that everything said here is

01:58:17

God's word. If we die with Jesus, we'll live with him. If we endure, we'll reign with him. If we deny him, he'll deny us.

01:58:24

And God is faithless regardless. And as I said, which is it? Is it one true and the other just a hypothetical or speaking to people who were never really saved?

01:58:32

Or is it just an impossibility? No, he says this saying is trustworthy.

01:58:39

Again, this is not false Christians who walk away from the church or the people of God, but Christians who depart from a living God, as Hebrews 3 .12

01:58:44

says. So this means apostasy is not about false Christians. Paul made a distinction between false faith and true faith.

01:58:51

And for those who had true faith, he told them they'll only remain saved if they continue in faith. That's 1 Corinthians 15 .2.

01:58:57

When this position was attacked, the counter side presented failed. Its failure in simple terms was weeding more into the text than is there, saying because of John 10,

01:59:04

Christians can't commit Hebrews 10. And this creates all sorts of problems and results in faulty logic as demonstrated tonight.

01:59:11

And one of the logical fallacies I gave is if a married man walks away from his wife in divorce, it does not mean he was never in a spiritual union with her.

01:59:19

Much in every way, the Bible says the apostates in Hebrews 6 were in a spiritual union with the Holy Spirit. You know, we could say, well, it says partakers, amen, it does say that.

01:59:27

But you know, it's just semantics that go back and forth. It says partakers. Saying this is evidence they were never saved is like saying every divorced person was never married.

01:59:35

The fact remains, they were made partakers with the Holy Spirit. Or you know, many

01:59:41

Calvinists, and though it didn't seem like Daniel went down this road, some of them go down the hypothetical route and say things like Miller J.

01:59:47

Erickson, these are just the means God uses to keep us saved. But as I said, that's like saying hell is only a means God uses to bring people into heaven.

01:59:53

It's ironic to take what is intended to be a warning and to turn it into a guarantee. More so, perseverance of saints undermines their doctrine of limited atonement.

02:00:03

Because if the person Christ died for is being preserved by God to prevent them from losing their salvation, then logically speaking, this means the person who

02:00:10

Christ died for could perish. As Calvinists are famous to tell us, all five points of TULIP are connected and logically dependent.

02:00:17

So one point fails, they all fail. So conditional scurry not only disproves perseverance of saints, but its entire system.

02:00:26

Austin Brown wonderfully noted, and I quote, If there are hosts of passages supporting a concept, and they can be taken at face value, then odds are very good that they're meant to be taken seriously as they stand, end quote.

02:00:38

Let me paraphrase that and say, if you have several passages teaching the same concept, and if they're taken at face value, and all consistently teach the same truth, then you have what can be called an established biblical doctrine.

02:00:50

My brothers and sisters, these are what we call the warning passages, which is because salvation is for the believing one. Now let me use the rest of my time here just to offer my gratitude.

02:00:58

Thank you again, Marlon Wilson, for being a moderator. Thank you, Daniel, for being my debate partner.

02:01:04

Thank you for the audience for being here tonight. And thank you, Apology of Church, for hosting us and for all your faithful work in the gospel.

02:01:10

I really enjoyed my time tonight, and maybe one day, if the Lord wills, I'll be back. You have my number,

02:01:15

Daniel. Most importantly, let me thank God for this opportunity. Oh, you know what? You don't have my number. Only Facebook. But until then,

02:01:23

I exhort everyone to put God first, or keep putting God first, because I know many of you are Christians, so let's keep putting

02:01:28

God first and keep submitting to his word. It's God's truth we are after. I'm convicted, based upon the clear teaching of the

02:01:34

Bible, that conditional security is a better doctrine and more consistent with the Bible. I will also say that, you know, maybe

02:01:42

I have a more of a majority Calvinist. There's a lot of you over here, not so much over here. It's okay to not be a

02:01:47

Calvinist. If the Bible teaches Arminianism or things that aren't Calvinism, then don't be afraid to disagree with Calvinism.

02:01:52

God's truth will never hurt you. You know, sure, maybe you'll lose credibility and be called man -centered and perverting the gospel, but let me also preference that and say that Daniel has not been that way with me.

02:02:04

Daniel has been very kind. He's been very gracious and compassionate in showing the love of a brother. So Daniel, you've given us a great example to follow, and so I really do commend you for that.

02:02:13

But if you are called names at the expense of God's word, then don't worry, because God's truth is a far, far better place to be on than at the expense of our social image and statuses.

02:02:25

But now let me talk about the reality behind my thesis, and, you know, we should all agree with this. The reality behind the thesis that salvation is for the believing one is that Jesus Christ came to earth, he lived for us, he worked in ministry, went to Calvary, died for our sins in fulfillment of the

02:02:39

Old Testament, was buried, arose the third day, and ascended into heaven and is coming again one day to judge the living and the dead, and between now and then he commands all men to repent and believe, and for those who do, he promises their sins are forgiven.

02:02:53

What a Savior. So let me end with his words in John 11, 25, 26.

02:02:59

Jesus says, I am the resurrection and life, the one believing in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone living and believing in me will never die.

02:03:10

Are you believing this? Thank you, Jesus Christ, what a Savior. All right, let's give him another round of applause for a great debate.

02:03:35

All right, at this time we'll begin our Q &A session. This question session will be about 30 minutes. Both parties get one minute each to respond to the question.

02:03:43

So starting off with Daniel, first question for you. Why would God allow his child to go through a season of sin and then come back to faith through repentance?

02:03:54

Hebrews 12 tells us that God, those who are his children, he chastises them.

02:04:00

So if God is allowing any of his children to go through a season of sin, it's to build something in them.

02:04:06

It's to cause them to depend upon his grace more. As Christians, I think we can often fall into this trap of becoming nonchalant to the gospel, and we start to think at times that we keep ourselves, and when

02:04:19

God allows his child to go through a season of sin and then brings them back, it's to show them that you need to depend on me fully.

02:04:25

So God, he only chastises his children, and Hebrews tells us he chastises them because he loves them.

02:04:32

Yeah, just to answer that, so if you read Calvinist confessions, you know, they say God ordains all things.

02:04:38

So I mean, you know, really, you know, the real answer is if we're being fair logically, it's because God ordained it to be, and that really is the answer.

02:04:45

It's not God is allowing things. I mean, God in the Calvinism, he's not allowing things. He's only ordaining things.

02:04:51

All right, question for you, Lucas. In Hebrews 12, verse 2, Jesus is both founder and perfecter of our faith.

02:04:59

Is there anyone whose faith is founded but not perfected by Jesus? I'm sorry, is there any room, you said?

02:05:05

Say again? Can you repeat the last part? Is there any room? You said, is there anyone whose faith is founded but not perfected by Jesus?

02:05:14

Well, so the author and finisher of our faith. So some can fall away.

02:05:20

So some, you know, in that sense, they're falling away, as the Scripture says, or as Hebrews says.

02:05:26

So it's, again, the author and perfecter or finisher of our faith. So some, I mean, the answer to the question is, in my view, somebody is falling away.

02:05:36

So I would interpret Hebrews 12 to be consistent with that teaching, if that answers the question.

02:05:43

Okay. He said Hebrews 12 has to be consistent with his teaching. Well, what about the teaching of the actual author himself?

02:05:50

If you're familiar with the book of Hebrews, you would never make the assertion that any of those passages are talking about true believers, if you're familiar with the book of Hebrews.

02:05:58

Now, what he says in chapter 12 is he's just talked about the faith chapter, and this is what he says.

02:06:04

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance that for the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith.

02:06:21

The argument here is, is since he's the one who founded your faith, he's going to be the one that perfects it.

02:06:26

So when you're running your race, you're looking to the finished work of the Messiah. You're looking to him. You're not looking to yourself to preserve yourself in the faith.

02:06:34

You're looking to Jesus. All right. Question for you, Daniel. Could you please elaborate a little more on the distinction between saving faith and once saved, always saved?

02:06:43

Yeah. So once saved, always saved is a notion that somebody can just say a prayer or at one point profess something and then go on to live however they want.

02:06:55

The distinction would be true saving faith, the Bible teaches, comes with fruit. It comes with the indwelling of the spirit.

02:07:01

It comes with these benefits that God gives. This is why in Ezekiel 36, when he says, I will take out your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh, that's regeneration, saving faith.

02:07:11

He says, I will cause you to keep my statutes and I will cause you to keep my commandments. So saving faith would be something that God is causing the believer now to keep his statutes and commandments and professing faith at one point would not be the same thing.

02:07:28

Yeah. So I agree. Perseverance of the saints is a totally different doctrine from once saved, always saved.

02:07:34

Once saved, always saved is really easy believism. So Daniel doesn't believe in easy believism. He believes, as he said, that God will preserve you.

02:07:41

Saving faith won't deny and live like hell. That's it. Stamped, you're saved. So I agree with Daniel.

02:07:47

In that sense, it's a much better doctrine because one just allows sin and at the expense of all kinds of evil.

02:07:55

Question for Lucas. If Christ can intercede for people in hell, would you call that a successful propitiation for sin?

02:08:04

If he's interceding for people in hell? Yeah. Well, I don't, I think the question is if he intercedes for somebody alive and they go to hell and when

02:08:13

I call that a successful one? Yeah. Successful propitiation for sin. Well, I mean, again, it kind of assumes

02:08:20

Calvinism. Jesus isn't failing. Jesus is fulfilling John 640, which is the will of my father that he will save those who believe.

02:08:28

So the question is just assuming Calvinism. And as I said, it's kind of a straw man. I don't believe Jesus is failing or anything

02:08:34

Jesus says is not successful. So I reject the question, which assumes that Jesus is failing in my view.

02:08:43

That's not accurate. And I kind of have to be engaged on what I actually believe and not what the assertions are what I believe.

02:08:50

If Jesus can intercede for people who do end up in hell, his intercession has failed. And also his,

02:08:58

I think the question brought up the word propitiation. Is it a successful propitiation? It wouldn't be.

02:09:03

If Jesus did satisfy the wrath of God and it was successful, they wouldn't be in hell. Hebrews 7 .25,

02:09:09

again, from chapter seven through nine, he keeps making a distinction between the old and the new.

02:09:15

And the reason why Jesus is a better priest is twofold. He lives forever and he intercedes for those.

02:09:21

And because he intercedes, they will be saved. All right, question for Daniel.

02:09:27

Do you think that regenerate old covenant believers could be permanently fallen away since they did not have the guaranteed and dwelling of the

02:09:34

Holy Spirit, which belongs to the new covenant? No. Do I, do

02:09:39

I believe old Testament saints who are regenerated to fall away? No. No saint at any point in time would fall away because anybody who is saved is, anybody who's regenerated is saved by God and God is going to keep them regardless of what covenant they were existing in.

02:09:58

So Hebrews is loaded with Old Testament quotations. So everything said in Hebrews encompasses the Old Testament.

02:10:04

And again, if you go through Hebrews, it's clear who's fallen away here. It's the just man, the ones who were made partakers with the

02:10:11

Holy Spirit, tasted God's good word. All these things can, that cannot be applied to anybody else but Christians.

02:10:18

So again, Hebrews 10 quotes heavily from the Old Testament. So it encompasses that. So therefore if Hebrews 12 or sorry,

02:10:24

Hebrews, the whole book is true, then yes, Old Testament saints could fall away. Question for Lucas, does

02:10:30

God keep an individual saved or does the individual keep themselves saved? Well, I mean, again, you know, the question is engaging me with a, you know, a strong man.

02:10:39

So if, if my position is that God has determined, as Jesus said, this is the will of my father's salvation to be conditional, the origin of that then is

02:10:48

God. I know, you know, I know, you know, you know, that we disagree with it, but the question is assuming a strong man argument that man is the origin of his salvation.

02:10:59

And in my view, or, you know, the Arminian view and, you know, what Jesus said, this is the will of my father. So God has determined salvation to be conditional.

02:11:06

So, so no, because if God has the one who is doing it, then that means he's the origin of it.

02:11:13

So he's, he's the one saving us. It's just that faith is the condition by which he saves us. But that doesn't mean he's, he's, he, you know,

02:11:19

I'm stealing his glory. And now, because he, God isn't a Calvinist, it's work salvation or all these other sorts.

02:11:28

Yeah, the, the, the problem is the way the scriptures define Jesus is founder and perfecter.

02:11:34

He is the one who is able to keep you. And then in, in First Thessalonians, Paul says he will do it.

02:11:41

So the question is, is in his perspective, who is the one who's doing the keeping?

02:11:47

Is it God or is it himself? You heard him say at the end of my cross -examination period that the only difference between him and someone who's in hell is the fact that he persevered in the faith and they didn't.

02:11:56

So it would require, I know people would want to say, but God still gets the glory and that's good.

02:12:02

I don't think that any Christian should want to say that. But even if you divide it with 99 % God and 1 % you, you still divided the glory in some sense.

02:12:10

All right. This question is for Daniel. How can a man know that he is not self -deceived and that God will save him?

02:12:18

Well the, the author of Hebrews gives us assurances and he gives us one in Hebrews 10.

02:12:25

He says for he who promised is faithful, faithful, and he does the same thing in chapter six.

02:12:30

Remember the assurance and the guarantee they have is that our high priest went through the veil, he already accomplished his work, and God who promises cannot lie.

02:12:40

And since the promise of the new covenant is that God will not remember your sins, the person who is looking for assurance would be looking to Christ, our high priest, as the finished work sacrifice.

02:12:51

And so they would be looking to Christ as that assurance. So I mean it sounds like what

02:12:57

Daniel said is that salvation is for the believing one. I mean if, if, if somebody can know that, you know, that they're saved just by what the scriptures say, which they can,

02:13:04

I agree with them, it's for the believing one, then, then, then therefore that's not Calvinism because in Calvinism you, you know, you're not saved by faith or you could be, you know,

02:13:13

I didn't bring this up, but even John Calvin talks about how God has an inferior operation with someone and Christ can actually give them a temporary faith.

02:13:20

And I'm not trying to take cheap shots. I mean that's what Calvin, Calvin said. So what he said was conditional salvation, that, that wasn't

02:13:27

Calvinism. Calvinism is, well, you don't really know until, you know, until you finally persevere because you can just have an inferior work of operation as John Calvin says, and oh, surprise, you're not actually saved.

02:13:38

But you know, the gospel is if you believe by believing you have eternal life. All right.

02:13:44

Question for Lucas. If faith is an act that we maintain, how do you reconcile that with Ephesians chapter two verses eight through nine saying that it is not through us?

02:13:54

Well, I mean, it sounds like that. The assumption is that I'm saying that man is the origin of his salvation.

02:14:02

I'm saying it's by God's grace because God is giving us the grace, but that is conditional. Ephesians two, eight and nine, for by grace you have been saved through faith and this is not of your own doing.

02:14:16

It is the gift of God, not a result of works that no one may boast for we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which he prepared beforehand.

02:14:24

The idea that Paul is saying here is that you are saved by grace through faith and this grace does not come from you and it doesn't, you're not, it's not sustained by you.

02:14:36

This is completely a gift of God. This is why I said both of us do believe that salvation is conditional upon faith.

02:14:42

You will not find any Reformed author say that someone does not need faith in order to be saved. The difference is, is we view faith as a gift from God.

02:14:51

It's something that God gives a person and so God will sustain them in there versus the idea that God can enable you and then you have to keep the rest yourself.

02:15:00

One of those is a complete work of God. The other is man cooperating with God. All right.

02:15:06

Question for Daniel. Is there any way to know the difference between a true believer and a imitator of a true believer?

02:15:12

Have you ever known someone who thought they were a true believer but now is away from the church?

02:15:19

How do you know you are an imitator? Yeah. Well, the scriptures tell us you'll know someone by their fruits.

02:15:25

And so of course, if you are someone who professes Christ and then lives a life that is contrary to the scriptures, that is evidence according to Jesus that they are not true

02:15:36

Christians. And so the way you would tell an imitator of the faith versus someone who's actually saved is looking at the works of their life.

02:15:43

Now, I will admit though, the scriptures do not give us the warrant to say we can tell who is and isn't elect.

02:15:52

That's not for us to decide. We can know of our own salvation, but I can't look into a room and say you're elect, you're not.

02:16:00

I agree with Daniel. I mean, ultimately, you can't say with certain knowledge if somebody really is saved, but you can just go by what the scriptures say, that believers or faith is active and will have certain works that back it up.

02:16:13

So we can say based upon the evidence, I have reason to believe you're a Christian and vice versa. Based upon the evidence,

02:16:18

I don't have reason. Ultimately, we can't know. But I do agree with what he said is by faith, there will be works that back up that faith.

02:16:29

And that can serve as evidence to whether or not they are true Christians. But at the end of the day, we don't finally know. God finally knows.

02:16:37

All right. Question for Lucas. If a person could go apostate after possessing salvation, would that make man sovereign in regards to whether they are saved or not?

02:16:48

Please explain your answer. No. So it goes back to is if God is the one, the scriptures say, who has determined salvation to be conditional, then even if you disagree, assuming that worldview, who is the one that has determined it to be this way, is it man or is it

02:17:04

God? It's God. So God is the one that has determined salvation to be conditional. Again, John 640, this is the will of my father,

02:17:12

Jesus says. So God is the one. So God is the origin. Just because God has made a condition doesn't mean a man is stealing his glory or robbing him.

02:17:21

That's assuming Calvinism. The Bible doesn't present that, especially Pauline theology. You go through Romans, it talks over and over again that man is saved by faith apart from works and his faith is not a work in itself.

02:17:33

As Romans 4 .16 says, it's by faith that it might be in accordance with grace. So therefore the grace goes to God.

02:17:38

It's his glory. I think what Luke is trying to say is that God has chosen to not be responsible over saving faith, that he kind of leaves the ball in your court, but he's done so sovereignly.

02:17:53

So that's how he's trying to say God is still sovereign, is that God chose this. And so because he chose this route, this method, therefore he's still sovereign.

02:18:02

But the problem with that is the determining factor of salvation wouldn't be

02:18:07

God. No one could say I am saved by the grace of God. Of course they would say grace is necessary, but ultimately what separates them and someone who's not saved is not the grace of God.

02:18:19

It's the decision they made to believe and the decisions they continue to make to continue in faith.

02:18:26

Question for Daniel. Can you clarify your definition of apostate and back it up by scripture? Yeah, well, scripture gives warnings and we, we tie those apostates.

02:18:38

So there is no definition of apostate either way in terms of an author saying an apostate is a true

02:18:44

Christian who falls away or an apostate is someone who had false faith and fell away. When you take all of the scriptures in their context, it's clearly teaching that someone who fell away never belonged to Jesus.

02:18:56

And there's multiple reasons why Jesus won't fit or do the will of the Father. Those people, again, in Hebrews four, this is a very key text that people overlook.

02:19:03

In Hebrews four, he tells us why they didn't enter into God's rest. They experienced the miracle, they fled

02:19:10

Egypt, he says, but they weren't united with faith. And then so he makes the argument from chapter four on that these are the people he's warning against is don't be like them.

02:19:19

Don't be the people who were never united to faith. They heard the same message, but they weren't united to faith. So compare that with Hebrews 3 .12.

02:19:30

According to Hebrews 3 .12, the author is warning them to not depart from what, as I said, the church of God, the people of God, the proximity.

02:19:37

No, from God, from the living God. And then cross -reference that with Hebrews 12 .25. Don't refuse him who what?

02:19:44

Speaks from heaven. That, that's apostasy. So we don't have to sit and wonder, well, who are the apostate for and do all this theological hoop jumping.

02:19:50

The Bible says that apostasy going out from is when a believer departs from the living

02:19:56

God. So that means that you're with God. And that's why Hebrews 6 says they were made partakers with the Holy Spirit.

02:20:02

Again, you know, we can juggle through that all we want, but no unbeliever is in a union with the

02:20:08

Holy Spirit. Only Christians are. And the Bible defines apostasy as somebody leaving that position from Hebrews to Hebrews 6 .6.

02:20:14

It's impossible to renew them again to repentance. And that is scripture. And that wasn't what we heard right now.

02:20:21

Question for Lucas. Are you confident that you will maintain the faith until the day you die? If yes, why do you think so?

02:20:29

I'm confident that God, that because of what Jesus did on the gospel, I'm sorry, on the cross through his work, that he will be good on his promise that he will give me salvation.

02:20:39

And so I have assurance because of what he did and that he will sustain me through faith by grace.

02:20:45

And that's what the gospel says. I like the way that sounds.

02:20:51

I think it's contradictory to your position, though. If his assurance of salvation was based upon the finished work of Christ and his promise, those things already happened.

02:21:02

Christ already died on the cross. He already gave his promise. And therefore, he would have to say, I can't fall away because Jesus made a promise and he already, his finished work is done.

02:21:10

The problem is, is he will say Christ has a finished work. He's made a promise, but what?

02:21:16

His position is conditional security, that it's conditional upon what I do. So if he was going to have any source of assurance, it would have to be in himself, that he's going to continue to do good, that he's going to continue to believe in God.

02:21:29

God forbid something happened in his life that's terrible. He would have to trust in himself to maintain faith in God and not trusting in God for that.

02:21:37

All right, question for Daniel. What biblical passage do you believe most strongly proves your position?

02:21:42

Could you exegete the entire context and passage? Yeah, we went to it tonight,

02:21:49

Hebrew, I mean, John 6. In John 6, again, Jesus is laying out the unbelief of the people.

02:21:57

So if you start at verse 36, and I'll try to do this in a minute, if you start at verse 36, this is what he says, but I said to you that you have seen me and yet you don't believe.

02:22:08

He's talking to people who don't believe and they experienced the feeding of the 5 ,000. He says, all that the father gives to me will come to me.

02:22:15

So he's making a contrast. There are people who don't believe and he's saying, but the ones that the father gives to me, all of them, they are going to come, they are going to believe.

02:22:25

And all those who believe, all those who come, he will raise up on the last day, he will never cast out.

02:22:31

This is what he has to do to do the will of the father. And so when you take John 6 and all of what it's saying,

02:22:36

Jesus teaches in verse 37 and in verse 44 and in verse 65, that salvation is of God, that this is the only way somebody comes if it's granted, if they're drawn, and if the father gives them.

02:22:48

And since, because the father gives them, Jesus says he's going to raise them up on the last day. So I don't know why verse 40 is never included in this, because either verse 40 is a part of this or it's not a part of this, you know, and it's not enough to, again, to say, as I said, it's not enough to go to verse 37, verse 44 and act like verse 40 isn't there.

02:23:07

Because Jesus, in clear language, says that the one believing is who he raises up on the last day. Now, you know, that doesn't mean that Jesus isn't drawing that man.

02:23:16

It just means that it's through faith, as God says, because it's conditional and God is the one.

02:23:21

Jesus says, this is the will of him who sent me. And by the way, wait, this is consistent with John 20, 31. John says he wrote this gospel so that by believing you may have life in his name.

02:23:30

So if John's purpose was to be a Calvinist and teach Calvinism, then that verse shouldn't be there. That verse is not consistent.

02:23:37

But again, verse 40 is there and then encompasses that, and it's not enough to glance over that and act like it doesn't exist.

02:23:42

That's not exegesis. Question for Lucas. What is the condition or conditions for your salvation?

02:23:50

For our salvation? I'm sorry, what is the condition? Yeah, what is the condition for our salvation? Oh, faith.

02:23:58

Yeah. I think a couple of times tonight, Lucas was trying to say that we can't believe upon that condition.

02:24:05

I've said it and I'll say it again. We believe that faith is necessary for salvation.

02:24:10

So what God promises to everybody that he predestines, that he draws, that he gives to the son, they will have saving faith because the father will bring that about in their life.

02:24:20

The Holy Spirit will come and regenerate them and will give them saving faith. So we both agree that faith is necessary for salvation, but the difference is, how is that faith maintained in your life?

02:24:31

Is that something that the sovereign Lord over heaven and earth keeps on you and keeps you in?

02:24:37

Or is that something as a human, as a creation that you have to keep up with? And from his perspective, he would have to say it's something that he does versus something

02:24:45

God keeping you in. Question for Daniel.

02:24:51

How does God make sure you don't fall away? Would it not be fair to say that the only way God can make sure you don't fall away is to control you in some way?

02:25:00

Do you believe God controls you? Well, I believe in the promise of Ezekiel 36, that God will grant to us a new heart and this heart has different desires.

02:25:12

So God gives us desires that are desires to continually believe in him. And again, the result of the new covenant is that God will put his spirit within you and God will call you to observe his statutes.

02:25:24

If you want to define that as control, I know people don't like Calvinism because they think we're robots. We don't make real choices.

02:25:29

That's not what we're saying. We make real choices. We have real desires. The reason why we have those desires and make those choices is because God has granted us a new heart.

02:25:40

Well, I mean, you know, I think, you know, what they're trying to get at is, is God that, you know, you know, the one who determined this, which, you know,

02:25:47

Calvinism, again, if read all the confessions, they say that God ordains all things. So does all include all? Well, I mean, yeah, if logic means anything, all, all includes all.

02:25:56

So it is, you know, deterministic. And, you know, why am I on that note? You know, let me, you know, you mentioned that also includes even the fake

02:26:02

Christians who, who, who, who depart. God even determined that. So it is, it is deterministic and you got to deal with it because otherwise we're saying, hey, what

02:26:10

I mean, all don't follow the logic. Because the moment I rebut that and you say, oh, mystery, what you're telling him is don't follow the logic.

02:26:17

And that's not how logic works. You follow the logic. The logic is if God ordains all things, then yes,

02:26:22

God is controlling that in a deterministic way. All right. Question for Lucas.

02:26:28

Can you have assurance of salvation as an Arminian? Yes. Amen. And that's why, because salvation is for the believing one.

02:26:34

And I know that God is good and he will make good on his promises. So salvation is for the believing one. That's a biblical truth that every believer has.

02:26:42

And it's because of what Jesus did on the cross through his life, death, and resurrection as well. So the question was, can he have assurance?

02:26:52

The only way he could have assurance is if he, in all respect, views himself highly.

02:26:58

Again, Jesus already died. He already went to the cross. He already rose from the dead.

02:27:04

And apparently he can intercede for people who actually go to hell. So if he has assurance that he will make it to the end, it has to be based upon him knowing that he will keep himself, that he will sustain, that he won't fall away, that no trial in life will cause him to leave

02:27:20

God. It would have to be, the assurance would have to be in himself and not in the Messiah. Question for Daniel.

02:27:29

Is the you in Romans 11 22 referring to believers? If so, why does Paul warn about them being cut off?

02:27:38

In Romans 11 22, if they're being cut off, it's because they're not believers. The whole point of what

02:27:43

Paul is saying in Romans 11 is if the natural branch wasn't spared, then don't think highly of yourself that you guys could all of a sudden not be cut off.

02:27:53

Now the idea of being cut off is not someone who has union with Christ, who has the indwelling of the

02:28:00

Holy Spirit now falling away. The being cut off would be someone who is around the church, who is making a profession of faith, and then at one point abandons the faith, therefore they're cut off.

02:28:13

So, Romans 11 is irrefutably talking about, talking to people who have faith.

02:28:18

He says in verse 20, because of unbelief, the Jews, they were broken off, and you stand by faith, do not be haughty but fear, and then he goes, if God didn't spare the natural branches, he might not spare you either, who, the one who stand by faith, and then he says, if you continue in his goodness, otherwise you will be cut off, and then if you go down to verse 23, the following verse, and they also, they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in.

02:28:39

So grafted in is undeniably talking about being saved, someone who's saved, and he's telling people who stand by faith, hey, if you don't continue in this, you're gonna be cut off.

02:28:50

So it's referring to true Christians who have faith, they stand by faith, and he uses grafted to refer to those who are in, they're saved.

02:28:59

Again, that's conditional security. All right, question for Lucas. If salvation is conditional upon not apostatizing, then how do we make sense of Matthew chapter seven, verses 21 through 23?

02:29:12

Yeah, awesome question, I was prepared for this. I mean, you know, this is an idiom, Jesus is communicating something that is evil to them, you know, this is like saying, you know, if I'm in a relationship with somebody, and they cheat on me after two years, and I say to them,

02:29:24

I never knew you, it doesn't apply that I wasn't in a relationship with them, it's, you know, it's just referring to the intensity of their crime.

02:29:32

So you know, maybe, you know, these people weren't saved that he's talking to, which, you know, that could be possible, but if they were saved, it's not inconsistent.

02:29:42

Yeah, well, in Matthew seven, Jesus is addressing people that are going to come to him and make a profession that they actually knew

02:29:48

God that they did miracles in his name. And so I think Lucas and I both agree that there are people who make a profession of faith, and their profession is false.

02:29:56

And that is the difference is these passages where Jesus is talking about people being cut off or people coming to him saying

02:30:02

I knew you, we would interpret that as being people who made a false profession. And Lucas wants to assume that somebody who's been united to Christ by faith, but yet it's not in the text, nowhere in any of these scriptures does it say they were justified and then not justified.

02:30:16

It is a false profession, and that's what we have constantly in these warning passages is make sure that you're not making a false profession, which is why

02:30:23

Paul gives the warning, make sure to check your end of faith, right? Make your calling and your election sure.

02:30:29

We believe in that. All right, question for Daniel. Is there any way a

02:30:34

Christian with saving faith could fall away for a time? Say that part again. Is there any way a

02:30:40

Christian with saving faith could fall away for a time? Fall away for a time, not fall away completely from the faith.

02:30:47

They could, if depending on how you want to define that, they could fall into a season of sin, certainly, but a true

02:30:53

Christian cannot fall away because it would make Jesus a liar. Yeah, as I said, apostasy is not people who, or Christians who sin, apostasy is a defection of the faith.

02:31:03

Paul says in 1 Timothy 1, they made shipwreck of their faith, so I kind of agree with what he's saying, or maybe even fully agree.

02:31:11

Apostasy is not believers sinning, Christians can sin, so it's not that, oh, believers, or that's apostasy, if you sin, you're out, apostasy is the defection of the faith, not believers sinning.

02:31:21

All right, just a final question of the night for Lucas. How does someone receive salvation? If God alone grants salvation, how would he not fail if someone loses their salvation?

02:31:32

Well, yes, so again, this goes back, if God is the one who says, okay, I'll save the believer, which he does, we know that, it's irrefutable, there is no way that God is failing on anything.

02:31:45

I mean, what's he failing in? If he's the one that says, hey, I'll save those who believe through the work of Christ, is that God failing?

02:31:52

No. And then he also doesn't fail even those who perish, he says, those who don't believe are damned, well, is he failing?

02:31:59

No. So, there is no failure if God is the one who set this up, and God has, that's the sovereignty, he has the sovereignty to determine salvation to be conditional, and he has done that, and therefore, there is no failure in my position.

02:32:12

By my position, just to clarify, I'm referring to the Bible, this is the will of my father Jesus, John 640, conditional salvation is his will.

02:32:20

Yeah, so, the problem with that answer is, it's assuming that what

02:32:26

God chose was a plan or a method of salvation and not a particular people, and that's not what the scriptures teach.

02:32:33

God did not choose a plan or a method of salvation, God chose a people and gave the Son a people.

02:32:40

This is why in Ephesians 1, it says, he chose you in Christ, right, and what is that in Christ? Why did he choose you in Christ?

02:32:46

According to his counsel, it's what God did, so, when we look at John 6, and again, the order is undeniably, it's those who the

02:32:55

Father gives, then they come, then they have faith, it's not in reverse. All right, that concludes our debate tonight, let's give a round of applause again for the debaters.