March 28, 2016 Show with Bill Blankschaen on “You Will Be Made to Care: The War on Faith, Family & Your Freedom to Believe” PLUS John Preston on “One Man’s Deliverance From Addiction”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors

Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions

Now here's our host Chris Arnton Well, good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania And the rest of humanity who are living on the planet earth listening via live streaming

This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Monday on this 28th day of March 2016 and I'm delighted to have for the second time on iron sharpens iron my guest today bill blank

Shane He is a faith blogger speaker an author of the book a story worth telling

Your field guide to living on with an authentic Christian life from Abingdon Press, but today we're discussing another book

You will be made to care the war on faith Family and your freedom to believe that he co -authored with Eric Erickson And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron bill blank

Shane Well, it's my pleasure to be back with you Chris I enjoyed our earlier session and thrilled to be back and have a little more time to talk this time

Yeah, I'm delighted about that and let me once again introduce you to my co -host the

Reverend buzz Taylor and welcome back Well glad to be here for those of our listeners who did not hear your last interview

If you could let our listeners know about faith walkers Sure Well, you know faith walkers is a website faith walkers calm

And it really kind of captures the essence of where my heart is kind of the heart of my ministry

Is that I'm passionate about helping Christians live an authentic? life of abundant faith

And along that is born of my own personal story of stepping out to follow the calling that God had placed on my life

And and through that having my faith tested in ways I never imagined possible and you know

What I realize is that oftentimes we as Christians will go through life without ever really having to live by faith

We say we do we talk about it a lot, but when push comes to shove we choose the safe comfortable route

Instead of speaking the truth in love instead of following what God has put on our hearts instead of reaching out to others

You know, so we we stay in the boat if I can use the Peter analogy And so my my passion is about helping people to get out of the boat

And to walk in a way of wisdom as they follow Christ. I mean, obviously this could be

The topic of several more interviews, but you mind sharing at least a couple of these ways in which your faith was tested

Yeah For many years I actually helped start and then led a Christian school near Cleveland, Ohio that we saw growth

We started with grade 7 through 12 about a hundred kids and we ended up grades K through 12 with over 400 kids

And God was really moving there and I was the principal of the school and and kind of at the hub

Of the center of operations, but God had impressed upon my heart that I had gifts as a writer and communicator

That he wanted to put to work for his church at large and for many years I resisted that choosing instead to keep the safe comfortable salary position

You know, not that you're making a lot of money in Christian ministry, but at least I knew What to expect the next day for the most part

But eventually, you know God stirred me to the point where I got wise counsel and then stepped out and and walked away from that and we went for A year with no income as a family of six kids

Wow as we started to work through that Well, what what does that mean God? Where do you want me? I'm open

I just need you to be to leave me and so we went through that process of figuring that out It culminated actually in our relocating from Ohio down here to Atlanta, Georgia Where we live now and so, you know

It's been it's been a journey and I've learned a lot of lessons to that and I wrote about a lot of those lessons in that book a story worth telling at that time and so that's basically the

The summary of the other book that I mentioned the story worth telling your field guide to nothing on authentic life

Well, yeah, and the story there is really the backdrop to the lessons because it's really not about me

It's about you and about the reader about helping to move you to that place I hear stories of other people as well and then practical tips and guides for people to step out and follow

Christ courageously Mm -hmm. So that would help you to determine the difference between as you said, you sought wise counsel

I would be hard -pressed to know sometimes the difference between wise counsel and foolishness Yes, absolutely, yes,

I do talk about that in there and I have some other resources at faithwalkers .com I can help with that too

But but you know For example, one of the things is when you get wise counsel from people you need to get it from people who have been there

Right, right and not people who only have talked about it And so getting a wide range of influences, for example is one of the things

I had to do Because I got advice from some people who said that's kind of scary.

You should stay put. Yeah But it was born more from their own fears frankly than any biblical wisdom

And I'm assuming as a caveat to what you just said You're not suggesting that every area of life when somebody is looking for biblical guidance

They need to speak with a pastor or Christian who has actually experienced what they have personally gone through I mean in other words a person struggling with addictions or homosexuality or any list of things doesn't need to speak only or Solely to a person who's going through that specific journey in their life

Correct correct. Yeah, and I don't advocate getting advice from any one particular perspective You know

I think it's good to get get a wide spectrum of people but to keep in mind to not to not only listen to those

Who have never attempted to do right what you're contemplating doing it specifically? I'm talking about and figuring out

God's calling and direction you're in your vocation in your career, right? We're calling you to step out

You know before you step out by faith You don't want to go talk to somebody who if you look at their life has never really taken any great steps

And I'd like to announce our email address if anybody would like to join us on the air our email address is

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com at CH RIS a RN Z n at gmail .com

and Please give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside the

USA and please only remain anonymous if It makes you feel uncomfortable to identify yourself because of a personal and private matter

That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Well going back to the main topic the the topic that we began during our first interview with you

Your book you will be made to care. Please explain that title

Yes. Well, this book is a collaboration with Eric Erickson and that the main title came from him when he was at a conference several years ago the topic of Gay marriage and homosexual rights and so forth had come up and a young man at the time had said to him

You know, that doesn't really affect my life I don't really care about it and Eric responded by saying you will be made to care

And within two years he had run into that young man again and who had said you know what? I see what you're talking about.

I see what is happening I see that the forces behind the agendas that are being pushed upon us will not settle for a place at the table

It's not about tolerance. They want the table He's being forced to care about things that maybe we otherwise wouldn't want to or wouldn't need to But we will not be allowed to drift without taking an opinion without taking a stance on these issues

So that's really where the title came from, but we it has come to really be symbolic About what we call the left or the progressives a secular movement in our country

That is attempting to force its religious belief upon everyone else force their worldview upon everyone else and the rest of us must be made to be

Quiet and go along and in some cases to celebrate what they wish us to celebrate

You know the thing the thing that's ironic is that Not that long ago in our nation's history liberals were often champions of freedom of speech and wanted the diversity of ideas to be present with equal measure if you will in the public square

They they weren't insisting that there's be the only tolerated views they were just wanted to be included in the discussion in public and it seems

Correct me if I'm wrong in your assessment, but it seems Liberalism by and large in the

United States has really become leftist totalitarianism. It's not really liberalism in the classic sense

Well, that's correct. The classic sense is the key You know, it used to be the liberal arts were studies you undertook in order to become a more

Coaching thinker to really look at all sides of an issue and carefully consider our universities used to be places

It's really designed to do that where you could freely discuss things and come to Agreement or disagreement, but you could really flesh out the issues

But now, you know here in Georgia this past week we had a Emory University where students put up a protest and and and protested to the

The Emory University president because someone had written the words Trump 2016 in chalk on the sidewalk

So they were so they were so deeply offended by this outcry and approach

I mean, you know, so this is what we've come to Because yes, you are correct liberalism or progressivism has really come to To embrace only one side of the ideological arguments

And it happens to be that those arguments that they're embracing cannot stand on their own

And so when they confront reality and so they must be they must they attempt to silence all opposition

Instead of having rational arguments about them now Before the program began you were telling me that there were some recent developments in Georgia I don't know if it's involved in Emory University, but if you could

Discuss what's what's going on in Georgia that you wanted to mention? Yeah, I'd be happy to you know, Emory University is probably in its own little bubble of reality

So it's probably best to leave them alone What's going on here in Georgia last year the many members of the

Georgia House and Senate attempted to pass Religious freedom protection here in the state of Georgia the same religious freedom protection that all

Americans enjoy at the federal level Thanks to the 1993 Religious Freedom Restoration Act signed by President Clinton in the bipartisan measure

And it guaranteed certain Guaranteed that the courts had to understand to interpret the

First Amendment in certain ways But as the courts ruled in the years to follow they ruled that those protections only apply at the federal level and not the state level and so to guard against a religious freedom being infringed throughout individual states states began to take that Religious Freedom Restoration Act RFRA language and Pass it in their own state so they could have this protection

Up at Friday this year of 30 at least 31 states had protection of some sort either through specific laws or through the courts

Well, Georgia attempted to pass that same legislation They met with stiff resistance last year and ended up not getting it passed

So this year they came back and said, you know what we're going to ask for like a crumb from the table

We're not even going to try to have a full meal here. We're going to ask for a crumb We want protection for pastors so that they are not forced to conduct ceremonies

That violate their conscience and we want protection for religious organizations, and that's it

We want them to be able to say we don't have to hire people who we believe are engaged in sinful behavior

We don't have to rent our facilities to people that we believe are engaged in sinful behavior that violate our conscience

So it's a very simple very narrow religious freedom protection got wide support in the house wide support in the

Senate and then today Governor Nathan deal vetoed it Saying and bowing to the wishes of the

NFL Hollywood producers Disney Corporation, etc Who cried discrimination and frankly told a whole lot of lies about what was in the bill?

In order to make their case and so just today we have seen this legislation go down in what is

Really really a potentially very troubling development religious freedom protection and this is in the

Bible Belt Well allegedly, yeah, I mean you would you would think it ran.

Oh, it's like the buckle of the Bible Belt But you know, but I guess a couple things going on here that connects to the presidential elections as well

There's a lot of people in the Bible Belt who say they are Christians and that's about the extent of their religion

You know It's more of a cultural thing than a deeply heart felt thing and we see this in the presidential race where people who attend church

Regularly vote differently than those who call themselves Christian in the South And so it's the same thing here, you know, we're but but overwhelmingly the state

Population was supportive of this legislation But governor deal had worked a great deal to bring in movie production facilities and so forth

And so he bowed to the corporate interests and and and what was interesting is the way that he did it

What he said was he had no problem protecting religious freedom of pastors But when they tried to protect the religious freedom of others that crossed the line with him and was more discrimination

And so what that means is that we are now going to see Lawsuits against pastors in Georgia as the left test this that they it's very evident that the state will not protect them

Unless they override the veto. So we're going to see lawsuits against pastors We're going to see lawsuits against religious organizations when

I used to run a Christian school You know This is always in the back of our mind of these situations that could develop and now that it is very evident to all that We have no protection.

I can very easily see groups like the Southern Poverty Law Center and others now making their move to gain some ground

Yeah, and for those of our listeners who are unfamiliar with that organization It had a noble beginning in trying to battle the evils of the

Ku Klux Klan in the south and protect the lives and rights of predominantly black citizens of the south and other minorities

Jewish minorities and others but This organization has really morphed into a vehemently anti -christian organization that that blacklists individuals and has them

Posted on the internet as if they are criminals on a wanted poster. Literally. I'm not even exaggerating

Identifying them as You know as people guilty of hate crimes just because they have

Written or spoken publicly against the sins of homosexuality and other things

Yeah, yeah, absolutely Yeah, we could talk all day about the many wonderful things that they've done, but people need to understand there are organizations

Dedicated to advancing these causes and seeing this opportunity. They will most certainly take advantage of them

And even something as simple as you know We've actually seen seen some of this happen seen some of this transpire

You know, so college organizations that are faith -based We saw this happen at Vanderbilt two years ago where the college had required the organization

To have non -christians in its leadership position. This is a

Christian organization They're playing they were discriminating by not letting Non -christians be in their leadership position

They attempted to fight it the thought it were shut down. This is Vanderbilt University a university with a allegedly religious background

You know, but eventually I believe was to 24 to 30 different organizations had to shut their doors and leave the campus in some cases leave the state

Because they were run out of the university And these are the things that are happening whether at University of Georgia and other places

We're seeing the same pressures and so You know, the legislature wanted to put protection in place because we're seeing it everywhere else

But the governor struck it down and the governor actually had the insanity To say that well, the reason we don't need it is because we're not seeing a lot of these problems in the scene

As if as if well, let's wait until it's a problem Undo it

This is just mind -boggling now Do you think that? That Christians because of what is happening.

We also have to be very careful When we want the government to place restrictions on people's

Ideologies views behavior. I mean within reason there are certain things there Universally looked upon as criminal that if people were to act out upon them

In the realm of sexual activity or other things they would be dangerous to everyone around them but but don't we need to be more cautious than perhaps we were in the past even as you know

Short time ago is in the 80s and 90s when you used to see a lot of evangelical protests

Demanding that the government shut certain Things down that had liberal agendas that offended the moral sensibilities of Christians and those who who believe in the

Bible But don't we have to be careful here, but the control of government is really what I'm talking about Yeah Well, we discussed this in the book and I would encourage everyone to visit you will be made to care calm because that's what

I'll Find out more about it and you can pick up a copy but we discussed this in the book because yes a lot of what we're seeing even in the

Evangelical community in the Christian community at large certainly is a reaction to a lot of what we saw in the 80s and 90s where people

Christian sincere Christian people look tended to look to government and government involvement and government activity as the key to somehow reclaiming the morals of society

But you know Politics is downstream from culture And so what we see in politics is often symptomatic of what is happening in the in the culture at the root level

And so what we saw there was an overemphasis on government what we've seen now

Among many of the younger Christians is it is a reaction against that and saying hey, let's let's get out of government

Let's get out of this completely Let's pull back and and the reality is though that God has called us to be engaged

In our government if we're going to be citizens of a country We have a responsibility and duty to that to that country now our citizenship

Comes first to the kingdom of God But then second to whatever nation we happen to be in and of course

We've got the luxury here being in the greatest nation ever to be present on God's earth

And so there's both of those things happen, but you're right for too long Christians viewed

America and and and God as somehow Co -equal at times

We if it works in the church, then we should just roll it out in legislation and that'll be the answer to everything, but it doesn't work that way you're right and So, where do you think if things continue to go the way they are going right now?

I mean, I'm not asking you to prophesy with infallibility, but If you could give me your opinion on how bad within the next 10 years this nation will get if things go uninterrupted either by the

By human beings coming to their right sentence since senses or through a miraculous work of God Well, what do you see happening is regarding the restriction of Christian freedom in 10 years, right?

Well once again, I'm going to Encourage people to check out the book because we talked about this at length

But here's here's a brief summary of some of that. First of all, I think it's going to unfold a lot faster than most people think

There is tremendous momentum on the sides of the left of the progressives They sense that advantage and they're pressing it hard And so a lot of people who right now are choosing to be on the sidelines are choosing to not pay attention

Are going to be made to care very quickly Yes, we are going to see the Pastors being tested on this wedding ceremony more likely.

It'll come in the form of faith -based organizations churches our schools and Ministries and things such as that para church ministries will be the first to be tested and it will happen largely under discrimination grounds

Gender will be used as well as marriage Try to create this we're already seeing this in California now where we have religious beliefs being tested in court over Gender, you know, so so I think we're going to see that certainly in churches churches are going to come under greater attack

We have we have several chapters actually devoted to this in the book having to do with pastors and churches and how they can respond

Families are going to come under attack. We see this already in Ohio The state of Ohio has already now changed the language that they are permitted to use in a family court

They are no longer allowed to use the words wife or husband Because that could be offensive to people and so, you know, we're going to see this insanity

Imagine trying to deal with these family Without using the words wife and husband or even the concepts behind me

Imagine the insanity so we're going to see all of that insanity unfold You're going to see a lot of craziness that people are shaking their heads now

I think you're going to see more of it in the coming years and some of that may have to do with the presidential election

We can circle back to that in just a minute But you're going to see all this happen Eric Erickson my co -author describes it as as a wildfire

You know, it's as if it's as if there's a wildfire that's burning through our culture and it's really just getting started

And so there's going to be a period of time here where Christians are going to have to come together

They're going to have to build authentic community and understand that that they are under attack but that's exactly what

Jesus warned us we would face and so, you know, this this could be a very

Blessed time for the church. Not that I ever want persecution not that I ever long for it

But this could be a time where our faith gets tested where we are blessed to suffer for the name of Christ Where the gospel becomes suddenly real to many people

You know, it's been said a peaceful people is seldom a religious people And so it's in times of testing that our faith really comes alive and we realize do

I really believe this? Well, if so, then I'm going to take my stand here If I really believe this then that leads us to all other kinds of things that the entire third section of the book is devoted To what does it mean to be a resurgent believer in this culture a resurgent family a resurgent church a surgeon citizen?

You know, what does that look like? So yes, it's going to get worse It's going to get worse faster than most people think but at the end of the day, we know who wins and so This could be a tremendously

Blessed time for Christians to really get serious about their beliefs and get our priorities back in the right place

Well, what do you think? about Or how would you respond?

I should say to someone who would say that you are fear -mongering and it's really laughable for us here in the

United States to talk about being persecuted when there are

Christians and Members of other religions and so on being massacred all over the world and tortured in unspeakable and barbaric ways and we complain and whine just because We may get a fine here or there or what have you how do you respond to that kind of a thing?

Yeah, well, first of all, it's more than a fine here and there, you know Talk to Aaron and Melissa Klein whose entire business and family has been wiped out

Because they had simply refused to bake a cake I mean good grief talk to Erinal Stutzman as I have done talked to both of them

You know where she's at on the verge of losing everything she owns her whole life savings because of it

It's so and the list goes on, you know, so it isn't just a fine We tend to trivialize that but we're talking about people having their entire lives destroyed by this process both financially and in public perception

But I would also add You know saying that greater persecution or physical persecution exists elsewhere doesn't negate the fact that it is

Rising here, right? You know I don't think back to let's say the 1930s in the 1930s.

There was tremendous persecution of Christians all over the world It wasn't taking place in Germany explicitly

And someone then could have said hey, what do you what are you protesting about? What's happening with this great young leader

Adolf Hitler and you know? Compared to other places around the world. We're not being persecuted that much

But we also saw how quickly things changed as the secular movement there got momentum

And so we you know We need to be vigilant for our freedom and our religious freedom wherever it may be because once it begins to slide

Everything else flies and you know who has been the largest proponent to stop religious persecution all the world

But the United States and so if we lose our freedom Then all of those other people all over the world who are suffering for their faith

Could potentially suffer even more for their faith because we are no longer there Trying to hold back the tide.

Well, let me ask a question about that because What I hear a lot of times is well, you know

We're deserving this because we're not doing anything about it and you know when I think about the whole situation

What is there that can be done about it? In fact, well, that's a good question to pick up and answer when we return from the break

Because we have to go to a break right now. And so if anybody else would also like to join Us on the air with a question for Bill Blank.

Shane our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com We already do have a couple of listeners waiting patiently to have their questions asked and answered

But we'll get back to you at some point after the break Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

Don't go away. We're gonna be right back with Bill Blank. Shane and our discussion of his book.

You will be made to care I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries The New American Standard Bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study used by pastors scholars and everyday readers

The NASB is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable Bible translation The NASB offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages

Which the NASB is known for the NASB is available in many editions like a topical reference

Bible Researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy the new topical reference

Bible includes contemporary topics relevant to today's issues From compact to giant print

Bibles find an NASB that fits your needs very affordably at NAS Bible calm Trust discover and enjoy the

NASB for yourself today. Go to NAS Bible calm. That's NAS Bible calm

Tired of box store Christianity of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert

Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship? And how about the preaching perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island Well, there's good news

Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience

Featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word and this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you

Call them at six three one nine two nine thirty five twelve for service times six three one nine two nine

Thirty five twelve or check out their website at WR BC u .s.

That's WR BC u .s Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said

Give yourself unto reading the man who never reads will never be read

He who never quotes will never be quoted He will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own you need to read

Solid ground Christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart the mission of solid ground

Christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future and To publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world

Since its beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish God -centered

Christ exalting books for all ages We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid ground books .com

That's solid ground books .com and see what priceless Literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from solid ground

Solid ground Christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor. There's no iron sharpens iron radio

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnz. And if you just tuned us in our guest today is Bill blank Shane We are discussing his book.

You will be made to care co -authored by Eric Erickson and our

Co -host today in studio is Reverend buzz Taylor And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. I'd also like to make a quick announcement the

Iron sharpens iron radio pastors luncheon springtime pastors luncheon is scheduled for Thursday April 28th and We are treating pastors to a free gourmet lunch they're going to hear a

Fascinating message. I'm sure from my friend David Wood who is one of the foremost experts on the religion of Islam alive today

David Wood who has traveled the globe Debating some of the prominent clerics and Apologists within the religion of Islam is going to be separating facts from fiction on the on this religion and he is truly a fascinating brother a former professor at Fordham University and the founder of answering

Muslims calm He's also the host of a television program called

Jesus or Mohammed that is on the Trinity Channel and He is going to be speaking and each of the pastors who come

Are going to be walking out with a very heavy bag or box filled with books

That have been donated to us by major Christian publishing companies like Baker and others

Solid ground Christian books whose ad you just heard and many other publishers InterVarsity Press Presbyterian and Reform Publishing also known as P &R

Publishing and on and on and on we're going to be probably giving each man about 15 books absolutely free of charge.

The whole event is free of charge. We have room for possibly 30 more pastors to join us

So if you live near Pennsylvania or if you can travel there

Email me at Chris Ornson at gmail .com Chris Ornson at gmail .com if you have interest in attending it's going to be held at the magnificent Thornwald mansion very historic mansion erected in the earlier parts of the 20th century and was a place where major politicians national politicians and Societies elites were lavishly entertained in the early 1900s

It has been recently restored and that is the location of our Pastors luncheon so we hope that you can attend tell your pastor or tell pastors that you know near,

Pennsylvania To try to attend this from 11 a .m. To 3 p .m. On Thursday, April 28th

And we'll be announcing that quite often God willing for the remainder of the month of April And buzz

Reverend buzz Taylor if you could restate your question to our guest bill well of course now we you know we listen to some of the events that you've been mentioning going on around the nation and In discussions with other individuals about similar things

I hear a lot well That's because nobody's doing anything about you know we deserve all this because we're not doing anything about it

And then I think about it Can individuals do well you know when you say we

Christians deserve this like persecution or this right this you know it wouldn't happen if we were doing something about it kind of thinking and you know when but it seems like this stuff is so entrenched and in our face anyway that You know

I'm very hard -pressed to know what to tell people what can you do? I mean you can talk to your friends about it, but that's that it and obviously pray

But what else you know? Yeah, yeah great question And I'm not trying to be dismissive at all by saying that the entire

Final third of the book is written to give people a way forward And to be a catalyst in that regard, but that for instance

Let me just give an example here pull from we did a chapter on the church And since you're talking about pastors by the way that sounds like a terrific lunch

And I wish I was in there up your way the 28th you get free a gourmet lunch and 15 books I mean,

I don't know how I'm sure you'd love a lot of the books that we're going to be giving.

Oh, I'm sure But you know for example here's the kind of practical thing for a for a church to do number one

Preach the gospel and preach a gospel that unites grace and truth

Preach a gospel that defines love Biblically you know these are these are Practical things that pastors can do deal with sin in the church and confront it as and that's something we don't do in the

Church today the second thing they can do is actually teach the truth not just preach But teach for instance give our children the answers they need to deal with these issues

And then speak out on these cultural issues a lot of pastors. Just don't know what to think about it

They don't know how the gospel Informs a lot of these things culturally and just as you were saying bring your pastor in or a speaker to talk about Muslim in The Muslim faith that that's wonderful, and we need to inform people

About the various issues and then pastors need to address sexual issues as well in their teaching

You know a lot of times we stay away from issues that we think of as taboo or just too challenging to touch

So pastors need to go there a third step though quite frankly is pastors They need to prepare their people for Persecution our own pastor did a terrific sermon as part of a series on the church

Which he talked about the rising persecution here in the United States preparing people to understand what the stakes are around these issues and what

God says about the suffering of the Saints and and finally I think you're just recognizing that a

Being nice isn't going to be enough and preparing Christians for that so that they can build authentic community build up their own faith and Continue to engage as citizens, and I'm painting with a broad brush here because we go into a lot of detail on these and authentic community believers

Families citizens all that within the book that really delves into more detail Yeah, you know the irony is that you have special interest groups you have people from the homosexual

Backgrounds either they themselves are participating in the activity or they are just advocates of them

And you have those liberals that equate Which drives me up a wall to no end it just makes me cringe and furious

But they equate being a member of a particular race or ethnic minority with being homosexual.

It's all in the same spectrum if you will Homosexual black

Hispanic, you know that kind of a thing but On one hand you have these liberal or leftist activists

Wanting to be treated equally when in many cases they already have superior rights to us

But at the same time it's as if they are demanding They would never say this they would never openly admit this

But the the logical outcome of what they are saying very often is they are demanding that we treat these people like little

Children we had in other words. We have to parse our words very Carefully because we're going to be hurting their feelings if we say things in a certain way

Even if our intentions are purely good and from a motive of love

They will see attacks and they will see hatred in every sentence or in every word or phrase

That comes from us, even though these hateful attacks are just figments of their imagination

Am I am I far off base here by saying that they're demanding to be treated like little children? Yeah, absolutely.

I think that's really a common theme here is that You know, we've we've been on this decline into Infantile behavior as a society for the last 50 or 60 years beginning with the 60s, you know where it seemed like you know that this idea of the

Woodstock generation so forth. It was all about Almost almost a sense of staying young forever

And by young I mean just behaving immaturely, you know and resisting Authority wherever it may be but but that's really the key behind a lot of the progressive ideology progressive ideology at its heart has to do with what they believe to be the progress through history of humanity, and so they believe that progress whatever that may be is good and Therefore it's almost as though this new form of pantheism in which there's the inevitable progress of mankind and at one with creation and Progress by definition is good

But the reality is that progress is not always good If you saw the movie a

Jurassic world last year is a wonderful line in there where they're talking about You know bringing all these dinosaurs back and isn't it great and one of the keepers there says, you know, maybe it's time progress lost

Because it isn't always a good thing and and I would say also to those who yes

Those who are easily offended when people speak the truth, it's important for us all to remember that that's okay because To those who hate the truth

Truth sounds like hate and so we can't we can't compromise the truth just because it's offending some people

Boys are still boys girls are still girls and saying otherwise doesn't make it so Yeah, and unfortunately though we have brothers and sisters in Christ Because they live in the same culture that we do who have been it seems

Brainwashed by the leftist agenda and they Even though they are Bible believing

Christians who share many of our beliefs. They still very often want us to follow some kind of handbook of Ethics and etiquette

I should say handbook of etiquette is a better way of saying it With a protocol on what words we should and should not use

When like for instance, it seems as I've been discovering recently for a white

Christian to mention anything that is Troubling Regarding like black youth in the in the inner city and so on things like that crime statistics you are immediately being called a racist and It's as if only black

Christians can mention these things or what have you am I am I getting you nervous here by saying this

Or am I off base? No, I think the key word here. You mentioned

Bible believing Christians. These people are mostly Bible believing Christians And I think all of us are at various stages, right and none of us keep all the law consistently, right?

So we are all fallen and so I think it's important first of all to look at one another through that lens

And to understand, you know before I point out the splinter in your eye

I look at my own eyes and for a beam However, having checked for a beam

I then should point out that you have a splinter in your eye You know and and that's really what's happening here is

Christians have a wrong Understanding they've fallen for the secular dogma that has been taught in our public school systems for decades

The secular dogma that judging people is wrong unless of course you're judging Christians You know, and and so people have bought into this thinking they want to be nice.

It's it's it's this whole idea of You know, let's let's all just get along and if you're not getting along and you're somehow not behaving like Jesus, but let's remember

You know, Jesus was the kindest person ever to walk the face of the earth and they crucified him

And of course Jesus wasn't always nice the way people define nice When he called this the

Pharisees whitewashed sepulchers filled with dead men's bones makes hypocrites

The woman at the well he was, you know kind to her but we must remember that he was kind to all people

But he did not leave them in their sin Yes, in fact, he demanded that they change

In order to move forward and for those that didn't walked away and left him right, amen, and We do have a listener

He his name is CJ in Lindenhurst Long Island, I don't know why you're giggling That sounded really interesting.

We do have a listener Very encouraging it's always nice to have your co -host insult your program

We have CJ in Lindenhurst Long Island who says I had heard your co -author

Eric Erickson is opposed to the presidential candidacy of Donald Trump and I was wondering if you felt comfortable sharing your own views

In what regard? Well, I don't know that the person would have to Send another email for me

Oh Yeah, I'll be I'll be happy to share my own views I don't speak for Eric and he doesn't speak for me in that regard

Although we are pretty much in strong agreement on this and I'm you know, the issues that matter for me

As a Christian are matters of morality Matters of religious freedom and and on all those issues

Frankly, I find a Donald Trump to be morally repugnant As a person and as a leader and so what people need to understand

You know for those of us who are very much opposed to Donald Trump and yet are Republican usually conservative primarily and Christian predominantly

You know our our Aversion to Donald Trump is based on we have certain minimal standards of decency and morality

That we simply refuse to compromise. This is where we're coming from We refuse to compromise those standards in order to vote for somebody so You know, it's simply a question of for me personally.

I would never vote for him unless he had some kind of Encounter with Christ and changed his life significantly, but even then

If that were to take place, I would like to see some evidence of it prior to putting him in office So there's a question of moral repugnancy, but there's also a question of the issues on the issues his entire life he has been on the same side of the issues as Hillary Clinton and liberals and so You know,

I don't I don't see why I should support someone who has been on that same side of the issue And all I recently changed his rhetoric when he began to run for office

Yeah, it seems that there are Christians even Christians that I know who would agree with me theologically on maybe 99 % of the the doctrine

I hold to but there are some who seem to Contradict their own theology by behaving as if You must vote for the

Republican candidate that wins the primary Because the fate of this very country is in our hands when we vote they forget even if they believe

Fully in the sovereignty of God that he is in control and some view

Abstaining from voting in a particular election because they Feel like their conscience is being violated by voting for any of the candidates

They're running that they're being treated as if they're wicked or sinners in some respect I know that this is not the the focus of your book, but if you could comment on your thoughts on that Well in some ways it is connected and and here's why what

I hear from a lot of Trump supporters is What I described as an almost an irrational

Savior Complex where they're they're viewing him in some cases

They're saying it explicitly as the one person who can save us from this cultural madness that's ensuing whether it's

We're not enforcing our laws on immigration or we see this other religious freedom madness going out of control and people are generally have

A sense of that this wildfire is burning and it's out of control and we just need somebody Somebody who knows what they're doing to come in and fix things

The problem with that is we've seen this before, you know, we saw this with the Roman Republic Coming into the first century

BC where we had a very similar situation. It's very chaotic Senate wasn't getting a lot done people were being were very disenchanted disillusioned and they chose

To give a lot of power to a few key people and we ended up with the loss of the

Republic in Rome I shouldn't say we Rome ended up with the loss of the Republic And we are very much in danger of doing the same and so I Share the frustration that people have both with our cultural madness and with Republicans in leadership quite frankly

Who have and Republicans and Democrats alike and so I share that frustration But I do not see at all any grounds for putting any confidence in Donald Trump In fact,

I see many plenty of grounds for never putting never trusting him to watch my dog for that matter

But We have to be very careful as Christians that we don't put our trust in a man and that's

I think what you were getting at that our trust has to be in God in his kingdom as it moves forward and Yeah, there has to be room for people to say

I cannot do this with a clean conscience And that's kind of where we connect with the book Is some people are basically implying and saying you will be made to vote for the candidate that I want you to vote for We can make our arguments we can make our case we can even you know

Try to apply pressure in a free society to the extent that we can to try to influence people to vote one way or another

But at the end of the day, we cannot give in to the bullying tactics of the left And by the way in Donald Trump's defense

You see the left tactics at many of his rallies as they are coming to his rallies

I'm trying to start a fight trying to be bullies trying to Play on the perception of his rallies as violence and so forth

Both of those things are wrong in my opinion both the left and the culture of the rallies is I don't like any of it

But you know, that's what they're trying to do and you're going to see more of this I think you're going to see this in July at the

Republican Convention. You're going to see Progresses they're organized and rallying trying to start a fight in the hopes of bullying us into doing what they want

We may want us to do we do have an anonymous listener from the

United Kingdom who says I am troubled by some of the

Christianity being expressed by my brothers in Christ in the United States Many of whom would be very reflective of my own personal theology

But all too often in the public square seem to intermingle their politics with their faith

Not to mention it seems the heroes of American Western movies as if that is the identity of a

Christian I'm speaking of the the machismo that is present in many

American films and in the The public's speeches of many of your politicians that claim to be

Christian if you could comment Yeah, I'm not exactly

I'm not exactly sure what they're referring to but you know I Europe has long been for decades now been conditioned to embrace

What I call a soft despotism, you know, they've been they've been conditioned to to disconnect and we see this to disconnect their faith from their public life and the

Result of that by the way has been an irrelevant Christianity in Europe where the churches are empty shrinking dwindling and Islam is on the rise

Because Islam makes no pretense about it. They say, you know, our religion does have implications on all of society

And of course members of Islam think they're good implications. Well, meanwhile Christians have said no

No, no, our faith has no implications. We want to withdraw from society We want to put our faith in a box and not bother anybody

And so, you know what what good is a faith that does that? I'm not I'm not in favor of Christianity being forced upon government, but I'm very concerned when we have political leaders who have lost any connection to God and relationship with him

And so to that respect and by the way, I think a lot of the political Connections have been overblown by the media

For example characterizing some candidates as being pastors or you know preachers and things like that That comes from a secular media media that wouldn't know what a pastor sounded like if it were, you know

Played to them on the teleprompter Yeah, and one of the one of the reasons that I expressed concern to a very zealous Trump supporter

Who happens to be a Christian and I said Basically, they were making the claim or the accusation that all politicians lie.

They all Exaggerate they all mock the other candidates that are running against them you know, you're whoever you're voting for you're always inevitably going to be voting for a a liar and a mocker

And what I have said to some of them is that as a Christian if We as Christians in mass rally behind someone that even secular society views as in a moral obnoxious narcissistic

Crude Dishonest individual And especially one who cannot even fake

When asked in public if he ever asked God for forgiveness, he actually said no

I have a concern about What wrath? God may pour upon this country that I live in as a result of our leaders that we as Christians Giddily support rising to power now

I know God is in control of every man who has ever risen to power or woman who has ever risen to power in any nation

But obviously I'm not a hyper Calvinist. I am a thoroughgoing Calvinist and a reformed Christian But there is a responsibility we as humans have

When it comes to everything that we do on this earth and including voting and so on But if you could sure is that my reacting in a biblical in an appropriate way in your opinion by mentioning something like that Well, yeah,

I think first of all, I would question the assumption, you know The person saying that all politicians are liars

That that's kind of begging the question That's the conclusion you want to end up with and you start with that Of course, you're going to end up there

One of the great ironies in this election is that we have we have and still have a candidate in the

Republican side Who is known? Across the board as being brutally honest and has taken a lot of heat for that honesty

And yet he has been labeled as Lying and things like that precisely because I believe precisely because that is his strongest

That is his strength and so in political circles you go after the strength to try to discredit it

And so we actually have a candidate who actually represents a lot of Things that most

Christians would support and does so honestly And yet many Christians are choosing to oppose him

So there is that from a political standpoint, but you mentioned, you know that the wrath of God You know,

I think the most likely wrath of God that will come upon us for that for supporting a candidate who even the secular world agrees is

Living a life completely inconsistent with Scripture I think the wrath of God will simply be letting us have a leader like that in the first place, right?

You know because it will be incredibly destructive first of all, he's not going to win an election unless Hillary Clinton is in jail

And so it really won't matter Because any data out there shows that he's going to lose and lose horribly and the impact of that is going to be great

Because he's going to take a lot of people down ticket with him when he loses and so You know, sometimes sometimes

God just lets us have what we want and says that's a sufficient penalty Well, I want to make sure that you can sum up in two minutes

What you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners about your book before you leave the program today

Well, thank you for that Yeah I would encourage people to visit you will be made to care comm because you'll find out more about the book as reviews there

And all kinds of fun stuff But the message they really need to get is that this isn't fear -mongering.

This is a heavily researched book almost 400 endnotes Documenting work that these things are taking place and more have taken place since then

I would encourage them to follow along I Do a lot of posting on my blog you can go to faithwalkers .com

and get plugged in there But you can follow along as I continue to write about religious freedom. You can follow me on Twitter At bill in the blank bill in the blank on Twitter You can follow a lot of the updates there

But the other thing they need to remember is that this is not a time to quit This is not a time to pull back as bad as it is and as bad as it is going to get

This is the time to reengage. We need to experience a resurgence of faith Not a time not a a collapse and so we do offer very concrete strategies

This is the way forward at least to start the conversation about things They can do to begin to prepare themselves their families their churches their communities

For the Church of God to thrive in what is coming this cultural wildfire and That is you will be made to care .com

you will be made to care .com and I'm assuming if someone wants to invite you to speak

For their function or their church or their organization. All that information is on that site.

I'm assuming You can go to faithwalkers .com for that and I'd be happy to do that I already have a number of events scheduled this spring

But on the topic of religious freedom and churches and pastors and equipping them and so forth love love love to talk to people about that It's such it's a critical issue and we're going to need it.

That's faithwalkers .com for the second website Well, thank you so much Bill Blankshain.

I really do want you to come back and discuss The next thing that comes from your pen or things that you've already written

That we haven't addressed yet that would love to have you back as soon as possible Well glad to hear it

Chris and look forward to it and to you Reverend buzz as well. Thank you very much All right.

Well, God bless you, brother Thank you guys. Bye. Bye All right And I hope that our listeners don't go away because we do have a second guest coming up now for our second hour of broadcasting today

My friend and pastor Bill Shishko of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square are highly recommended

To me to interview our next guest Pastor Bill just to let you know has been a dear friend of mine through thick and thin and that includes during my

Wicked lapse back into habitual and unrepentant drunkenness that I went through after 18 years of sobriety and Friends like him were tools in God's hand that that God used to restore me to faithfulness and Into a right relationship and not only with God himself

But with the church and he has highly recommended that I interview today a member of his congregation

John Preston who was a former addict and has what pastor Bill Shishko believes are some valuable thoughts on the issue of addiction

So when we come back from our break, we're gonna be joined God willing by John Preston.

So don't go away We'll be right back after these messages Thrive and financial is not your typical financial services provider as a membership organization

We help Christians be wise with money and live generously every day and for the fourth year in a row

We were named one of the world's most ethical companies by the at the sphere Institute a leading international think tank dedicated to the creation advancement and sharing of best practices in business ethics

Contact me Mike Gallagher financial consultant at 7 1 7 2 5 4 6 4 3 3

Again, 7 1 7 2 5 4 6 4 3 3 to learn more about the thriving difference

Lending faith finances and generosity. That's the private story

We were made to thrive Attention coin collectors and investors

Long Island galleries of Wading River, New York has brilliant uncirculated 19th century

Morgan silver dollars for only $54 per coin with free shipping and handling for a limited time

There's a 40 coin limit. So order now while supplies last call 888 2 6 0 8 1 1 1 8 8 8 2 6 0 8 1 1 1

Visa MasterCard discover and American Express welcome price is subject to change.

So call now at 8 8 8 2 6 0 8 1 1 1 8 8 8 2 6 0 8 1 1 1 if you prefer ordering your brilliant Uncirculated 19th century

Morgan silver dollars by check mail it today to Long Island galleries 9

Susan Drive Wading River, New York 1 1 7 9 2 that's

Long Island galleries 9 Susan Drive Wading River, New York 1 1 7 9 2

Remember, they're only $54 per coin with free shipping and handling and a 40 coin limit

New York State residents must add sales tax Long Island galleries is honored to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio

See the Long Island galleries display ad at iron sharpens iron radio calm

Linbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Linbrook Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century

Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing

We're a diverse family of all ages Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship play and together

Hi I'm pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Linbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church

Can be call in Brook Baptist at 5 1 6 5 9 9 9 4 0 2 that's 5 1 6 5 9 9 9 4 0 2 or visit

Linbrook Baptist org that's Linbrook Baptist org. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnson If you've just tuned us in for the second hour of our program today, we have as our guest

Coming by the high recommendations of pastor Bill Shishko of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square, New York my dear friend for approximately 30 years a

Gentleman by the name of John Preston who is a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square who has by God's grace been freed from addiction and He has some valuable things to tell us according to pastor

Bill Shishko his pastor That he thought our listeners would benefit from so I want to welcome you for the very first time to iron sharpens iron

John Preston Hello, John. Are you there? I am.

How are you? I'm doing great John. Let me also Introduce you to my co -host reverend buzz

Taylor. Hello, John. Good to meet you Good to meet you also buzz. Thank you All right

Well, first of all before we go into the specific subject at hand if you could let our listeners know how you came to Christ briefly, obviously your story could take up a whole week's worth of programs, but a summarized version of how you came to Christ and Then why you wanted to speak on the specific issue.

We're addressing today about addiction Great Excuse me,

I was born in Queens, New York, and I was raised up in a Christian household. I went to Grace Lutheran Parochial school from grades 1 to 8 and I always just loved to hear the

Bible stories I was a believer at a very young age and Lutheran Church but at about the age of 12 years old,

I Kind of came to a turning point in my life I felt the calling to be a pastor and yet I still wanted to do my thing which was to make money and just go have fun and Make a long story short.

I chose not to go to parochial high school and pursue a pastorship But I I went off into the world and my god back then really was money.

It's all about money. I thought that money would Get me happiness, I could buy things and this and that and you know, so many divorces

I heard about as a young young child We're always Seem to be centered around money.

So I wanted to make plenty of money and be happy and You know, I I knew

I was an alcoholic at the age of 14 15, I knew I had a big problem with it and By God's grace.

I came into the rooms a a when I was 18 and To make a long story short.

When do I believe I truly was converted? I was about 32 or 33 years old

I made my goals of plenty of money. I had a yacht a Ferrari a Bentley and Horses and just all sorts of material things, but I was a miserable person

And I just was looking around at life. Like what is life all about? I was just never happy and I certainly knew being in the program of a a the 12 steps of a a you could directly talk about God or Allude to God and seven of the 12 steps and I just knew

I wasn't right and I really was, you know to a degree suicidal and Boy, I'll tell you

I was dealing cocaine for seven years and I was dealing kilos of cocaine Wow Yeah, I was making good money.

I had businesses and It's a long shot of how I got into that business, I didn't intend to do it, but it just happened and one day, you know my a career was was more in than out but As I say

I started in a when I was 18 I had six months one year three years five years 17 years and after 17 years

It's when I was really at the top of my game if you weren't material wise But my heart was just you know, oh so far from the

Lord So I picked up this cocaine and I said, let me try it and I did it for 10 days straight as a result

Overdose and just about died from it. I called 9 -1 -1 As I was I was on my boat by myself at the time big boat

And I was on the ground and I was looking up and I just started firing some more. Okay, I didn't mean to commit suicide

Wow and I've gone too far here I know Lord and my life is in your hands and You know, if you decide to take me

I just want to see your face once before you send me to hell And if you choose to let me live

Only want to live You and you'll have to teach me what your will is and I was in the hospital for three days

And after that when I came out of the hospital, I called this fellow who had been meant talking to me for many years

I'm notice fella His name is Ray Eckhoff and he was a great man of God We spoke on the phone and he had spoken to me many times

But he knew the Spirit of God works so strong on this man's life He knew that now was the time for him to offer up the sinner's prayer to me

Because he had told me many times, but John it's one thing to know about Christ in your head It's another thing to be born again to truly have the

Spirit of God in your heart And I just never understood it, but that that day

Three -day period and that night when I said the sinner's prayer, right? I knew for sure

I had been saved well, praise God that he did rescue you and save you not only from addiction, but infinitely more importantly that he saved you from eternal damnation and I rejoice with you as a as a fellow

Freed a slave from the bonds of addiction Let me

Address a couple of the things that you said there are a lot of Controversial issues that are swirling around in the realm of recovery religion if you will the

Christian Church and How it is to cooperate with secular organizations when it comes to the rescue and recovery of addicts and and one of the organizations that you've mentioned alcoholics anonymous, which also has

I Don't know if they're officially affiliated but like sister groups like na narcotics anonymous and all kinds of anonymous groups there are many people who have

Achieved sobriety through these groups. They have maintained sobriety through these groups.

So I'm very Thankful that God has used them for that purpose one of the things that that does to be perfectly honest troubled me about the

AA and na groups is that they appear to have become religions in and of themselves, even though they would

Very vociferously deny that they seem to have all of the major elements that a religion has they have prayer they have the the repeated

Declared necessity of regularly attending their meetings

They have a book that they believe has the essential truths to recover from addiction

Which the book that they call the big book that some of them even call it the AA Bible They have prayer

And they even have teaching about God and yet they deny that they're a religion but my problem is that their teaching of God Unless you happen to be in some group that is run by Christians truly born -again

Bible believing Christians, which I've heard is more prominent in the

Midwest and South. Well, you have a a groups that are really Christian and in their teaching and so on and then you also have 12 -step groups that are

Christian that imitate the model of a a but am I far off base by saying that there can be a spiritual danger in some of these groups because Even though they are helpful and have rescued many they have

The appearance to me being a someone who has been a Christian for 30 years of being a counterfeit

Christianity or of counterfeit religion if you could if you Know I agree with you.

Uh, you know, I started back around 1935. I am NOT the authority on fact

So, please excuse me if I'm off by a year or two or if I say anything, that's not absolutely, correct

And you know a started back actually around 1900 or so out of out of England and it was a group of Christians who did want to reach out to alcoholics and What I understand they started with somewhere between four and six steps today, it's 12 but it was

Christ -centered Bible -based absolutely with the Word of God as the authority and In 19 and dr.

Bob was part of this way back when before dr. Bob even met

Bill Wilson and You know, this group was You know doing work for the

Lord and working with these people Whether it be homeless or Addiction to alcohol or whatever it was and then when they met a

You know came up with the 12 steps and now the thing about the 12 steps as you were mentioning

It's the problem is is it it's a God of our own understanding You know, so it's

God as you understand them. So if there's a hundred people in the room There's a hundred different understandings and the authority is not

God's Word. The authority is We're just an anonymous group of people trying to help other people so I wouldn't

I wouldn't go as far as class and classifying it as a religion itself. Certainly not Workout, I don't classify it as that but and the big but here is is that?

What what people don't understand and really truly need to know is that steps?

Really come straight out of the Bible and I believe this 12 steps today is a beautiful Blueprint of how a true

Christian should live with their life. So there's nothing contrary in the steps themselves to God's Word except a

God of your own understanding So we have many groups that have started in many many different ministries

Which is based on the true God and Christ as our Lord and Savior as well as God being the authoritative

Word You know the Holy Word of God So My mission when

I go to AA. I don't really go there to space So but what I go there for is to listen to different people because there are so many people seeking

God And they don't know and when I first came in the rooms at AA I heard things like well

If you want the group can be your your higher power or the radiator can be your higher power now, of course

I knew better But I didn't hear anyone in the rooms and I'll be honest with you for so many years that really ever seem to know who the true

God is and Jesus Christ is nuts, you know, it's almost like taboo.

You could mention any God you want We'll talk about Jesus Christ. Yeah, right. That's why it's really a falsehood when they say he can

Believe in any or trust in any God a God of your own understanding That's bad enough in and of itself, but they really don't mean it because Christ the

God of Christianity Jesus Christ or the triune Godhead is Definitely taboo when you make exclusive claims publicly in the meetings about that God.

I I remember years ago an NA group was meeting in the basement of the church where I was a member and The pastors asked me to sit in on a group just so that they could be at ease of what was going on they felt that the perhaps they were too hasty into allowing this group to rent the building and Everybody will not everybody but a number of people were getting up and giving their personal testimonies

How they got off of drugs and many of them were involving very bizarre religious

Experiences one person one person was able to stay off heroin. He claimed by Grabbing a pair of rosary beads

Every time he had the temptation to use heroin and he did the rosary until the the temptation went away

So I got up and I gave my testimony of being delivered from addiction.

I handed out tracts by Jay Adams a very well -known reformed counselor and scholar on addiction

People were clamoring to get them and the man The man running the meeting asked me to step outside for a moment so he could speak with me and he said you can't do

That and I said I can't do what I said you endorsed your religion I said I spoke about the

God that I worshiped that delivered me from not only addiction but damnation and he said yeah, but you can't do that here because you're you're saying that your

Religion is superior to everybody else's so you can't I said well I'd be a liar if I presented the truths of Jesus Christ in any other fashion

He is not one of many options to choose from he is the one and only Way truth and life and no one comes to the father, but through him so right, that's just my little story on the the problem with the whole aspect of the pluralism if you will of religious pluralism of a

One of the things that I say when I'm at a meeting and again I don't I don't speak about the Lord Jesus Every every time

I'm there many times. I don't say anything and I only go a couple of times a week One of the things

I do say to people if they have an objection to me talking about the Lord Jesus Christ is I say?

This is the God of my understanding and for me. This is the true God so I'm not forcing this down your throat

However, I'm not going to sit silent and not talk about my God everybody else can say whatever they want they can and they don't

Do this at AA meetings they frown upon this but you know people can say Bad words and this and that the other thing and nobody takes them outside and gives them a lecture

When one talks about Jesus Christ you you may get a lecture and I don't listen.

I'm not talking about religion I'm talking about God. I didn't say a thing about religion.

I'm saying that The triune God Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior and the

Word of God is the Word of God And and that's where I stand that my big book is God's Word period

You know I've heard the same thing you're talking about. Well. This is my father. I Spoke a fellow just passed away

Just two days ago, and I know that I witnessed I know the fellow personally and I and I just I spoke to him

Three or four or five times, and he says well, you know Common saying which is true.

You know God is love and in this room is Talking about the room with a a and this that the other thing is that's great.

That's great But you can have 50 years of sobriety But apart from Jesus Christ and faith in him when you die you're still going to hell

Is I don't mince words there is a heaven it was Jesus said on the way to truth in the life no man comes to the father

But through me and I said the most important decision you'll ever make is not whether you go to seven meetings week most important decision you'll ever make is if you're humble yourself and repent of your sins and Ask the

Lord Jesus Christ to be the Lord and Savior You were talking about the a groups there's almost over 200

Together all together this 200 groups and I say to people like this a is great and it works

And you know why it works it works because the 12 steps based on the morals the

Principles of God, that's why it works because you're following what God which I remember speaking to an agnostic once Well, if you spread and she she said

I don't I don't believe any of this stuff She says here's here's what I like I like this day at a time day by day book and it's a meditation book

It has this and this and I she said look at today's message and I looked at it This is I turned around to her and I said, you know that comes straight out of the

Bible I quoted in the first and so much of the things that we read in these different meditation books

Do come straight out of the Bible. So when people follow what God would have you to do

Again all of us who come into these different eight eight programs Will come in and broken people were all broken because of the alcohol or the drugs or whatever your situation may have been

And the bottom line is the reason you stepped into a or whatever a program it is in the first place

Is because of God's grace God's grace. I said grace is this

God's riches at Christ's expense and we know that You know,

God's grace is an unmerited unfavored free gift and it's great that you got sober

But Mary we need to deal with you eternal destiny. We need to deal with your soul, you know

So you're saying you're still attending these meetings as a witness then I do

I go. Yeah, I've been doing this. I mean you were talking about coming to Christ much younger and I Can't tell on the radio how old you are

Okay, so you've been doing this for quite some time going to these meetings I was just adamant about keeping my

Myself connected to God period always and for about a year a little over a year.

I wasn't working All I did was read the Bible listen to back then family radio, which was a good station back and And I and I went to it was six out of seven days that I filled by either going to church or a prayer meeting or Bible study and my mentor this fellow

Ray He took me under his wing so to speak and he had me at his house

For close to a year every Thursday night We'd spend about three hours together in the word and in prayer and he was just such a great influence

So this is this is this is where it's at it's it's in God's Word And I'll ask people sometimes and I said, well, you know, the third step is a doozy, you know

And so what do you mean? Turn your will and your life over to the care of God as you understand them totally

Now the question is who is God? Wouldn't it be cool for us a little bit more to find out who is the true

God? So I'm not saying you have to follow me But I am saying I think it would be who you somewhat

Seek out true God because God says in his words if you diligently seek me you will find me hiding

Yeah, and obviously Who they are turning their lives over to Is a very important issue and The wrong understanding of God could be not only devastating physically, but eternally.

It's kind of interesting how the second step of the 12 steps says

Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity and Then the third step after that Is it made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we?

Understood him. So how can an insane how can an insane person? Understand God rightly.

That's that's right. That's right Like this oftentimes if you look at the first second and third step

And you change the words. All right from God as you understand them to the true God and Jesus Christ as our

Lord and Savior the God -man who gave us as we just celebrated the resurrection day the

God -man who gave his holy shed His life to make payment for our sins

Not just a few Lifetime of sins that I had when

I realized that I when I came to repentance And I asked

God to forgive me through Christ Jesus and realized that he took My sins and I've got a problem and then

I'm getting many of them I don't even want to talk about this. So I regret them to this day yet Christ said

I forgive you and he gave me is he imputed on to me?

Whose righteousness is holiness so that the day that I pass when

I stand before God Almighty? I will have and I have been covered by the blood of Christ I'll be as as if I had never said just by faith and the faith is in Christ Jesus just as up if I had never sinned so You know where the verse says we love him because he first loved us

And that's so true. God is such a loving merciful gracious patient God So many times

I could tell you many many times was Seven or eight times was very close.

I'll just give you one 18 years 21 years old racing and on Cross Bay Boulevard I go off the mic motorcycle at over 120 miles an hour

I truly at that moment That I was gonna see what it was gonna be like to meet that God in his mercy spared me came out of that action with a

Very severe sprained foot. That was it. I was at work the next morning at 8 o 'clock

Sharon I was sharing at a meeting an AA meeting 8 o 'clock that night and I said

You know I Don't hear talking to you people, but the more miraculous miracle because so many alcoholics and drug addicts have so many stories

Where they they caught it and water and should have been that we have so many stories

But the best story of all and the best miracle is when one person comes to true faith in Christ And comes to true salvation,

I love the verse where it says, you know when that happens the angels in heaven rejoice No, oh my that's just that's the best thing in the world, isn't it?

Amen because when all is said and done a person who is totally sober can still go to hell and There are they're going to be many sober people and recovered and repented

Alcoholics and drug addicts who will be in hell and teetotalers who will be in hell because they don't know

Christ and they don't have Any payment for their sin other than their own and will unfortunately

Be damned for eternity because it will never be enough payment for their sin So do you have any testimonies of people that you've been able to help throughout the years and since you've still been involved with it?

In fact, that's a good place to pick up where when we return from the break because buzz buzz interestingly has a habit of asking

Question right when before the break right right before the break, but it's a good time for you to think about Examples And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris arnzen at gmail .com

We right back after these messages, so don't go away Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am

I now seeking the approval of man or of God? Or am I trying to please man if I were still trying to please man?

I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi. I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church Here reform

Baptist Church when we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts We strive to reflect

Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

Than how men view these things? That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the

Apostles priority It must not be ours either We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man

And to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ In truth and love if you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area

Please come and join us for worship and fellowship. You can call us at 508 -528 -5750

That's 508 -528 -5750 Or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our

TV program entitled resting in grace You can find us at Providence Baptist Church ma org.

That's Providence Baptist Church ma org Or even on sermon audio .com Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio

Are you a Christian looking to align your faith and finances? Then you'll want to check out thriving financial.

We're not your typical financial services provider We're a not -for -profit fortune 500 organization that helps our nearly 2 .4

million members be wise with money We provide guidance that reflects your values so you can protect what matters most

We help members live generously and strengthen the communities where they live work and worship

Learn more about the thriving story by contacting me Mike Gallagher Financial consultant at seven one seven two five four six four three three again seven one seven two five four six four three three

We Lending faith finances and generosity.

That's the private story Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said

Give yourself unto reading the man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted

He will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own you need to read

Solid ground Christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of preachers to heart the mission of solid ground

Christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future and To publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world

Since its beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish God -centered

Christ exalting books for all ages We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid ground books .com

That's solid ground books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present

You can unearth from solid ground solid ground Christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio

Welcome back. If you've just tuned us in our guest for the second hour has been John Preston and He is a former addict

Who has been delivered from this addiction or a number of addictions by the grace and mercy of Christ and infinitely more?

important has been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb whose resurrection we just celebrated yesterday and As all

Christians do celebrate every day And John is a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square, Long Island, New York pastored by a

Dear friend of mine for about 30 years pastor Bill Shishko of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square He's well known in reformed circles around this nation and and predominantly and Presbyterian circles, but he strongly recommended that I interviewed

John today If you'd care to join us on the air with a question of your own for John regarding his journey from addiction to a new life in Christ our email address is

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and Buzz you want to rephrase your restate your question and now that we're back from the break here

Well, of course, we know that John has already been you know, he already stated that he has been Involved in continuing to go to the meetings the

AA meetings as a is a witness For a number of years, so I'm just kind of wondering what kind of results you've seen from that Which was about 23 or four years ago,

I Just had such a burden. It was like Lord I want to know what your will is for my life.

And as I got into the word with my mentor my spiritual mentor Ray I just kept reading more and more about the word and listening to Christian radio station and the biggest thing that was the emphasis upon my life and the first thing really that was

What going on with me was to tell people about the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ Loves you so much and he died for you and if you would just accept his grace and mercy and come to the cross

Repentance that is mine. That was and still is my main goal. You know, God is impressed upon me to be a witness and You know again the 11th step tells us we saw it through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we

Turn up to improve our conscious contact with God praying only for the knowledge of his will

The power to carry that out his will and I want to know what his will was so I looked it up in the concordance and I went through every patch passage in the

New Testament about his will and His will really is for us to be

The sanctification process where God continually draws us to him his will is that?

Myself I need to be in the word. I need to be in prayer and then say Lord use me May I show forth the love of Christ to someone today and and that's the key word there too is love things in love

You know Paul tells us, you know, although I have all these gifts. I have not loved nothing.

That's the truth. So I When I was first converted a friend of mine was already a

Christian he said I would like you to help me Overcome this outreach meetings, which is the 12 steps based on Christ as our

Lord and Savior based on the Bible show people where these steps come from right out of the Bible and So, you know the

Lord helped me with this fellow. I was able to help him and Actually, we got about five meetings started usually about a dozen people

Small groups but people people who were seeking God wanted to know who this God is and know him a little bit better And that was such a blessing and I'm looking to do this again now

There are so many Christian Organizations out there such as celebrate recovery.

That's 7 ,000 strong You know team challenge. I'm sure you know the story behind team challenges, you know the so many different Groups, which

I've tried to reach out alcoholics drug addicts troubled people and whatever You know the bottom line trouble is this ultimately three -lettered words.

Yes Well, you know I think you mentioned team challenge Because I did work for team challenge for almost a year back in this would have been 1989 actually, but I directed one of their choirs and we travel around to different churches and the guys would share their testimony and I listen to the night after night and Major tours and it was just amazing to to listen to These testimonies of men who were on crack and everything else sharing the good news of Jesus Christ and I'd like I'd like to Put in a plug myself for Hebron colony ministries where I happened to find sobriety by the grace and mercy of Christ Oh These fine folks were used of God I think to rescue me from death itself because of the rate that my alcoholism or drunkenness was progressing in the quantities of alcohol that I was consuming daily and Hebron colony dot org is the website

Hebron colony dot org H e b r o n Colony dot org and this is one of the few that I have found

The few Christian recovery groups that is absolutely free of charge

It only requires a refundable $300 deposit in the event that you need medical expenses while you're there if you don't that money is refunded to you and the organization exists entirely on the the contributions of Christians and churches and other groups who want

Hebron colony to remain in existence. It's one of the oldest continually operating recovery groups

In the United States, and there's a sister organization for women in Santee, South Carolina called grace home and you can find out information about both of those organizations at the same website

Hebron colony dot org and One thing that I have certainly witnessed as I have met a number of people involved in recovery groups both those that profess to be

Christian and those who don't is That these groups though can Become idols.

Yes, and there are Christians that don't even or professing Christians that don't even Have a church that they are members of or a place where they regularly

Routinely Gather for worship and where they are submitted to local elders and so on they they feel that their quote -quote needs are being met by a a or na or whatever group it is and That has become their church, but this is really a serious

Sin, and it's become idolatry in my opinion. How do you comment on that? I Agree with you a hundred percent

I think that as you look around of course without mentioning any names But as you look around many churches within the

United States, I think we have shifted Unfortunately, and this is idolatry.

Really we have shifted the praise of God and our maker

To ourselves. It's all about me. It's not all about you. It's all about Jesus Christ So, let's not say oh

I came here I came there and now I'm doing so good night or everything to XYZ Or everything to Jesus Christ.

So you're a hundred percent, right that we the focus is on the Lord His work and many of these groups and again,

I'm not mentioning any group here many of these Christian groups are

Unfortunately, in my opinion looking in the wrong direction and That's that's bad, you know

Satan is the ultimate liar and he'll come in nice and slow and he's the great deceiver He wants to turn you away from the true living

God You know, he wants to turn you to whatever it is. You want to be turned to and Unfortunately many people in the groups of different groups again

Thinking they're okay Thinking they might be right with the Lord. Yeah, they've appeased there, you know guilt conscience if you will in their heart and yet Again, I'm not the judge what

I wonder sometimes how many people are truly saved, you know And that's that's that's very crucial

It's not about me. It's about the Lord Jesus Christ and that's it period, you know And I would think that you would believe that Christians perhaps especially those of who have had some experience with the recovery groups

Need to do start doing something in their own local churches to offer more biblically sound

Alternatives to this problem than they may find at the local a a meeting a meeting that made by the way

Those in the audience may routinely hear the work the name of the Lord profaned You may hear blasphemy and vulgarity cursing

And one of the one of the things that is very troubling Where I would be very hesitant and I and I may be

I may be in disagreement with you John I don't know, but I would be very hesitant to recommend that a woman go to a a and a especially a a younger woman because Unfortunately the laws of our nation often require criminals and sex offenders as a part of their

Rehabilitation process process or parole to attend a a meetings and they are not identified By very virtue of the nature of a a they are anonymous there

So people have formed friendships and even romantic relationships with very hardcore criminals and sex offenders and wound up being

Raped and there have been a couple occasions of murder Happening that have made the news But I just I just had to in all good conscience

Make that statement especially for young women who may be more vulnerable and unable to take care of themselves physically and so on But you have any any comments on that John?

I'll tell you you know what the men with the men and the women with the women Meaning if you're going to get a sponsor you get a female sponsor, and I thought if a young woman gets female sponsor

She will say listen no relationships with the first year no major decisions within the first year

But again, what we're dealing with here is the same nature of man

Okay Certainly does not know if we're aware of someone you know it's almost like the herd instinct

We're there to protect people not to let them go to harm's way So I was for you know maybe saying what you just said, but the but is again we're all sinners

I would say by grace or not and You know it's just not gonna happen

Because Christians back off a a you know

I'm getting much My hope in this Bible study or that part of this church or that church

There is the the Great Commission to go ye Into all the places of the world you know

And a is part of that. That's where that's why I go you know These are the small groups these are the 12 -step groups that are claiming to be

Christ -centered based on the word I find that The more word that's used the better it is and oftentimes these small groups are dependent on the leadership

As good as the leadership is you'll find the church will have the group will follow

So in the group that I would like to try to get started again, which was the same as 27 years ago

Overcomes outreach. I would like to it's In solid Christians with me so that you can answer.

You know biblically questions that people have about God Great one thing that's maybe very controversial to bring up It's something that you and I have very much in common

John is that we are both people who have been freed from enslavement to addiction and Yet we are both members of congregations and Christian fellowships within the

Reformed community that view moderate responsible social drinking and alcohol consumption as being within the liberty of the

Christian because there is no clear biblical Prohibition for any consumption of alcohol nor of that nor is there any?

Specific Command for total abstinence or teetotaling now,

I know that I Must never touch a drop of alcohol again

I mean, I don't go to the extreme of some that would never eat a chicken that has some

Cooked in wine or something, but I mean as far as as a beverage

I Know that I cannot responsibly handle that I have to view it as poison or nitroglycerin but at the same time because I had a sinful addiction to this that Nearly ended my life

Possibly theoretically It was definitely heading in that direction

The I I cannot sit in judgment over brothers in Christ Who you know,

I have a glass of wine with dinner Or who have a snifter of brandy in their study or what have you?

What is your own experience about how a Christian Who is seeking to remain?

Sober in the midst of fellow brothers and sisters who don't have the same

Restrictions on their personal lives regarding alcohol Obviously everybody should regard to illegal drug use but alcohol is a unique and drunkenness.

Yes Yes, obviously we all agree that drunkenness is a damnable sin Sometimes I think our brothers

Who flaunt their liberty to drink? Are forgetting the fact that drunkenness is a

Sin listed with some pretty abominable. Yes things like homosexuality and thievery and murder but If you could comment on that being a sober person in recovery who is among brothers who socially drink moderately and responsibly

My good mentor Ray, I asked him a long time ago So maybe you have a drink and he says no

I used to drink a beer once in a while with It's been I never had a problem with it. Well, once I became a

Christian he said I never drank a beer again He said the reason why was because I didn't want to Put temptation out there or show with a bad example for anyone else.

Okay, that's great I would also say that as any issue in life we deal with We need to truly search the scriptures and see what

God would have to say about this issue And then pray to the Lord and ask the Lord to work within our own hearts as to how we should or should not do things

The other thing that I think of, I'm a gambler, a compulsive gambler also Or used to be and Thanks for clarifying

I Saw a thing on gambling a long time ago and this girl said

Because her father was a degenerate gambler had ruined their family and she said If you need to gamble

Then you shouldn't and if you don't need to gamble why do it?

It's the same thing. I would look at and just say for a person who drinks an occasional here or there.

That's fine I personally I don't have a problem with it, but I would only say If you need to drink why do it now we know you have a problem if you need to drink, right if you need to If you don't need to drink why do it and so again,

I don't judge anyone But I would ask people to again any issue you want to talk about go to the

Lord See what God has to say pray on it and ask the Lord to work in your heart.

That's it Yeah, and obviously our brothers who do consume Alcohol moderately should always be very careful that they are not causing another brother to stumble.

Mm -hmm and unfortunately, not only do you have Sin on both sides of this issue.

You have teetotallers being pharisaic against Christians who moderately and responsibly consume alcoholic beverages

Treating them as if they are lost because of that very thing or you have on the other end

Of the the the spectrum I have experienced and witnessed often personally

People who flaunt Christians who flaunt their liberty to drink and mock those who are sensitive towards that issue and You know go out of the way to rub that liberty in people's faces.

That's an equally Dangerous and sinful practice I think and that goes not only just for alcohol

I believe that goes for any sin you want to talk about, you know, we Focusing not now on alcoholics and drug addicts.

This is a matter of life and death and You know, we know this But we're focusing on this and yet really the bigger problem is to focus on even those little sins

You know, it's like a little gossip a little critical little judgmental And whether you're an alcoholic or not as a

Christian we still all struggle with sin You know all sinners saved by grace and yet we need to seek to be

More and more like Christ and to be obedient to him and to show forth the love and mercy to all this

I find I found with Ray who again had no problem with alcohol Ray as I would tell him my stories

He had such a great Compassion as Jesus did don't you great love and compassion and Although he didn't experience what

I was telling him. He could understand what I was talking about And he just would reach out to me with God's Word Just continually

Tell me boy. God loves you so much. Do you realize how much God loves you?

Oh boy, you know What a great message that is, you know amen and One thing that rose to my mind during something that you were saying actually is during a flub

When you refer to yourself as a habitual gang Gambler and you said well, I used to be

One of the things that does trouble me about the recovery movement is The constant drumbeat where people are announcing and declaring to all those willing to listen that they are alcoholics

Even if they have been sober for 50 years They're declaring to people

I am an alcoholic now. Why is it that this particular sin of drunkenness?

Seems to be the only sin where a Christian would typically do such a thing You are you going to have somebody who is on parole?

after serving a prison sentence for rape and who found Christ in prison is he going to get up publicly and say

I am a rapist or Somebody who has been delivered from homosexuality. I am a homosexual or a sodomite

Nobody is going to do that. Why do you think that there's a danger in this constant drumbeat of identifying yourself in the present as somebody who has an addiction

Who has an enslavement to an addiction when you've been freed from it by God's grace. Oh What do you know?

Pastor Shishko, you know, I would tell them about the times that I was at meetings and listen Yeah, don't say you're an alcoholic.

So, you know, you're a child of God, which absolutely I am and I think that's what we're talking about Right now goes into play with again the general population of Christians again

Not just alcoholics and drug addicts, but all Christians How cowardly

Oftentimes I am To profess my faith in Christ Jesus and I'll go home and I'll be angry at myself.

I said, oh I didn't say I should have said and and so okay enough of being hard on myself is

Even normal people how much do we honestly witness somebody during the week?

You know, what did we speak to about the love of Christ this week? oftentimes, unfortunately the answer is zero and The other thing

I wanted to say about the programs is You know

Many people that I know have long -term sobriety 40 -50 years and of course, we do a time count for the newcomers

It's all about time time time and I say like this It's a career tour.

I Only have today. I have no guarantee on tomorrow. I can't change a thing in the past and You I can't walk around with I don't have 25 years, but I'll just say if I had 44 years straight sobriety

So what? That's good. That's great. But guess what? What about sobriety you have?

comes from the grace of God It becomes ownership. I have 15 years.

I have 20 years We walk around like a bad a bad a curry or a bad a bad

Giovanna if you will You know what you've got today by the grace of God, that's what you have if you've got 40 years you go thank the

Lord You know well, I really want you to Wrap up and summarize what you most want etched in the hearts of minds of our listeners today before we leave the program

John What's been on my heart since I came to my true conversion get saved by the

Lord Jesus Christ, I would look I would just everyone to Really truly love the

Lord with all your heart mind and soul and then have the compassion and the love that Christ had

When I first got saved, I loved to see the scriptures of how much love did

Jesus have? And it doesn't matter whether the person was this that or the other thing He approached everybody with love with the exception of those who are high -minded

So righteous self -righteous and prideful those people he rebuked so It's just about first and foremost our own relationship with the

Lord and Then secondly of all I would encourage those Who have a good knowledge of the word?

To become involved you don't have to be an alcoholic or a drug addict or anything You just have to be a born -again believer in the

Word of God Go on encourage these people they had They had the spirit of the

Lord Working within him. He could reach out to anyone and he did and it was just such a great example

See him From the park on Sunday or rather.

He wouldn't even call the guy would come see pray We didn't give him. I'm sorry

I just was gonna quickly announce an anonymous listener who had a question if you I thought

You might have been finished there but very quickly An anonymous listener wants to know of a good recommendation for a book on this subject other than obviously the

Bible but the heart of addiction a biblical perspective by mark e Shaw is something

I recommend the heart of addiction a biblical perspective. You have any recommendations John I was just talking to a friend of mine.

I Apologize, I can call it into you later. Okay, that's fine I know that your website of your church is

OPC Li comm OPC Li comm it's Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Long Island OPC Li comm and I want to thank you for being on the program and I want everybody to always remember for the rest of Their lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater