Tooth and Nail Records and the Providence of God Part II

Apologia Studios

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00:00

Non -rockabodas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it.

00:07

Are you going to bark all day, little doggie, or are you going to bite? Delusional is okay in your worldview.

00:15

I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay.

00:23

It doesn't really hurt. What? Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men.

00:37

The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

00:44

Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives. Right. Don't go into the world and make homies.

00:51

Right. Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke, pastor.

00:59

When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

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And we know that for those who love God, all things work together for good.

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For those who are called according to his purpose. And that of course is Romans 8, 20

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H H eight, which precedes what dusty eight, 27, the golden chain of redemption.

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That's right. But we're not going to get into that today. Today. I want to focus on how God's sovereignty orchestrates all things to, to the good of those who were called according to his purpose, right?

01:52

It does. And, um, we, if you're just joining us, this is actually the second show we will talk about Tuesday now records.

01:58

I'm very excited for today. The first show was with our friend, Darren Doan was really, really awesome.

02:04

And there's a lot of fun and we got a lot of positive feedback from that. But before we get started to my left is my good friend, dusty Marshall Mathers.

02:13

Hello there. Thanks for having me on, uh, hip hop extraordinaire, right? I guess so.

02:19

I guess so. This is your second time on the show, right? It is. Yep. Hopefully it's better than the first.

02:25

Oh, the first one was awesome. No, it's fine. Uh, yeah. So I'm excited cause we're talking about the music industry a little bit today and dusty being a hip hop artist is very familiar with that.

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He's familiar with tooth and nail records and a lot of the names, what might be mentioned. Um, but before we get into the show,

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I want to remind everybody, if you have not yet signed up, please come to reform con it's at the end of October 24th to the 26th.

02:49

Very excited for that. Um, we have an awesome lineup of speakers. You'll be there.

02:54

I will be there. I'm not sure you're performing at some level, correct? I am performing.

03:00

We're still working on the details on that. Um, so anyways, uh, we have a great lineup. So, uh, it'd be of course, pastor

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Jeff Hoopers, by the way, I should mention the pastor. Jeff is on his sabbatical right now, which is why he's not here.

03:12

And the reason Dusty isn't Joycey is because she is about to have a baby at any moment. So I'm the,

03:18

I'm the fill -in I'm the surrogate, uh, MC. Yes, exactly. So pray for her any moment.

03:24

I just saw her a minute ago. She popped in here and I was like, go home, have that kid. Um, so yes.

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So that's why they are not here, but reform con pastor Jeff will be there. Pastor Dr. James White, uh,

03:35

John Sampson, Andrew Sandlin, Toby Sumpter, cross -political be there.

03:41

Sheologen will be there. Uh, the doctor where we'll have a dividing line mashup show. Uh, Joe boot will be there.

03:48

And then of course the last day is the end abortion nowadays. So I will be speaking to Zachary Conover, rusty Thomas.

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And if you haven't heard, we are premiering babies are murdered here too.

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Can't wait. Still a murder here. Yes. So we'll be premiering it there. And I am very excited to announce a little special, special incentive, which we have not yet announced.

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We will be at reform con having a raffle at the, at the conference, um, to win a trip with us out to Kauai.

04:21

Now I know I'm a missions trip out to I know I'm sharing there, but can I still win that? Yes. You just have to get a raffle ticket.

04:28

I will. So, so check that out. Anyways, reform con .org go there, uh, get your tickets and we hope to see you there.

04:37

Hopefully you can come out here and join us. Okay. Now that brings me to our special guest today.

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Who's, um, been a friend of mine for quite some time, actually on Facebook. We've never met one day we will.

04:51

Um, but David Lohman, what's up brother? How you doing guys? Good man. I'm, I'm excited to have you on today.

04:58

I think you were on like really early, weren't you? Yeah. Back in the radio days, right before you guys left radio.

05:04

Um, I was also, I was on, I think we were talking, uh, eschatology and my, uh, my, uh, blog that I did.

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And then, uh, was on another time and we talked, uh, Greg Bonson. Yes, yes, absolutely.

05:17

So, so the reason, and I'll, I'll have David explain more of this here in a minute, but the, the main reason we're having, uh,

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David on today is if you listen to the first show where we talked about Tuesday nail, the name, uh,

05:30

David Bonson came up quite a bit. Um, and we also mentioned David on that show, a brief mention.

05:37

Um, and so, uh, David is, um, very good friends with, with David Bonson and was, uh, with tooth and nail records very early on.

05:48

Um, and so, yeah, man, I'm going to let you go. You, you just tell us the history, your, your involvement and we'll go from there.

05:55

It's interesting that you brought up the providence of God in this discussion. Cause it's a, it's actually a pretty cool. And, and one thing real quick, if you ever do a like theology or a reform theology and Christian rock music, um, feel free to bring me out, uh, to, uh, to reform con, uh, as a fun topic.

06:14

But you were talking about this, uh, idea of providence and it's interesting, and this is a little bit of a history and I'll try and make it quick, but, but before tooth and nail, there was frontline records and frontline, um, was, uh, the, the came out of, uh,

06:31

Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, sort of, there was a passion. They used to do these Saturday night concerts all throughout the seventies with the early

06:37

Jesus music bands. And the pastor who would speak was a guy named Jimmy Kempner. And then he left

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Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa. And he, uh, started doing these Christian music nights at Knott's Berry Farm called frontline nights and started noticing that like these bands like the

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Alterboys and the Lifesavers and Undercover and Krumbacher were getting bigger crowds than some of the big bands, like at that time

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Petra and Servant. Yeah. So he decides to start a record company called Frontline Records.

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And Frontline, um, we had Bloodgood, PID, you know, just, we were the edgy record company at the time, uh, and I was working at a monstrous, uh,

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Christian bookstore called Maranatha Village, which oddly enough was actually housed in the original church that Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa met in.

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And, um, Frontline became its own distribution company. And we had John Gibson and Shout and, and, uh, tons of hard bands like Mortification and Vengeance.

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And we were kind of the cutting edge. We were the loud one. We had tough time getting the stuff into stores.

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Well, it kind of folded, um, under its own weight after about three years.

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And my sales manager, Bill Conine, called a meeting for all the sales reps and said, we want to start a distribution company.

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We're going to continue to distribute Frontline and we're going to pick up a whole bunch of other labels. And, uh, we need to, we need to hire a bunch of, of phone sales people to help you guys out.

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Two of those people that were hired over the next year or so were David Bonson and Brandon Eble.

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So when you talk about Providence, um, Frontline's existence really led to David Bonson and, and Brandon Eble meeting and, and becoming friends.

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And, um, where Brandon then, uh, after a couple of years and maybe even a little less than that, I think it was like late 94, early 94, he started, uh,

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Tooth and, uh, he started Tooth and Nail and we're at a sales conference. So imagine you have the sales conference.

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We know Brandon as this super young, really loud, upbeat, excitable kid comes in and he's not like with the sales force.

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And Bill Conine introduces him as the newest label called Tooth and Nail. And he was going to be, uh, bringing us the first handful of releases for us to go, to go out and sell.

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And David Bonson was my phone rep, uh, for some time. And, uh, he and I used to just hang out together at all the sales conferences to get together.

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And I was a good, um, kind of Southern Baptist, Armenian, uh, dispensationalist.

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And then I met David Bonson and he used to just, uh, just destroy me theologically and pass me his dad's stuff.

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And, and I became like a big fan of Greg Bonson and, you know, would visit him at church, got to know him, had some exciting stuff.

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Um, and it, it, it, over time, the, uh, my theology changed and, and, and such and became very reformed.

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But I came in through eschatology, not through, uh, through, uh, soteriology. So I came in through this idea of eschatology, uh, from a reformed perspective and started looking for more things.

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And I started noticing that some of these bands, Supertones, Plank Guy, uh, some of the early bands, um,

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Stavesacre, and even the Crucifieds, uh, were, were very theologically conservative and was starting to show up, um, in their music and reform.

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Um, and it just be, it kind of just went from there. And a lot of that, uh, I, we, obviously you can't avoid, uh,

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David Bonson had, had a lot to do with that. Sure. But, but at that very first sales conference, he brings us this music that we thought we were pretty edgy.

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I mean, we had some grindcore and death metal bands and stuff, but we had no real hardcore music.

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And I think the first thing they played for us was this band called Focused, um, in 94, like back in, like, it might've been the end of 93 when they first played it for us and it came out in, in early 94.

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And it was hard and dark and scary. Yeah. And, um, it was a whole new world.

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And we had to, as a bunch of salespeople, walk out into Christian bookstores and try to convince these people that what they're listening to was, uh, good for the

11:05

Christian young people coming into their store. Yeah. You were the one putting up,

11:10

Oh, you're the one putting up the signs that said, if you like so -and -so. Admittedly, we were part of that, but a lot of that had to do with, you know what we, we had no way to really market the product.

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And we were doing that years before Tooth and Nail came along. I mean, those, those comparison charts, um, that was,

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I remember seeing those back in 80 and 81, when there was pretty much only pretty much

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Petra and Resurrection band were the only things that you could have on a list like that. Uh, cause there just wasn't a whole lot of music at that point.

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And then as the eighties went on significantly more music, um, fell into it. And then when, you know, Tooth and Nail hit along with a lot of the other bands and the other labels, we were, there was a label called

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Screaming Giant. And I know you're probably familiar with Five Minute Walk that gave us, um, uh, Five Iron Frenzy.

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Yep. I had, um, I had, um, 710 Split. I did a show at my garage.

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They came and played. Yeah, that was all part of that whole garage scene that these guys literally would play in people's backyards.

12:11

Yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So before we get any further, I just want to say like, um, this is, it's funny.

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If you didn't miss the first show, I was explaining how I basically was a Tooth and Nail kid. I started getting into this music about 96,

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I think, which was two or three years after they started. And, um, you know, I, I think MXPX and like Supertones were like who

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I was first introduced to. And I grew up very, um, very legalistic, um, amazing

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Christian family, but legalistic. And, and I remember, like, I remember like, uh, um, and this might be before even your, your

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BC days. So you may not even know what I'm talking about, but like, but like, like Twyla Paris and Michael W.

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Smith and like Jars of Clay, like it was like a big deal for me to get to go to those shows, you know? And, uh, so anyways,

12:59

I started getting into them and, but Dave, did you have, did you have distribution in, in like the

13:05

Midwest at all? I think we had. Yeah. So, so, so Frontline, uh, Frontline originally was with a really big company called the

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Benson company. And the Benson company was most known for, uh, Carmen and Sandy Patty.

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Those were the two biggest artists on the Benson company. And they also had to Garmond Key, which was a legit good rock band.

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Um, but, uh, they were pretty much like, uh, Twyla Paris, The Warrior is a

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Child. That was a Benson title. So all of a sudden Frontline comes on to that.

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After a couple of years, they decide to go out on their own and we had distribution, um, pretty much everywhere, but it wasn't easy.

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It was, it was pretty hard to walk into. If you shopped at a Christian bookstore in the late eighties, all through the middle nineties, um, you met the owners of those stores.

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Cause for the most part, they were, you know, imagine walking into talking to mom and pop and saying,

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I've got this new band called 90 pound wuss. That's what a

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Diamante or Frontline, uh, salesperson had to deal with, uh, when we walked into a store.

14:13

I mean, it was hard enough when you had something that was just like Starfire was one of the first two or three albums that came out,

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Starfire 59, Silver. And the album cover was just silver, right? There was no

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Starfire on it. There was no imaging. It was just a blank silver. And they followed that up with the album gold, which was just blank gold.

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And then you had to try to explain to the 58 year old grant, semi -grandmother that worked at the store, what shoegazer music is.

14:42

Um, uh, so, so suffice it to say again, it wasn't the easiest thing, but what happened, especially with tooth and nail, and again, some of the earlier frontline albums like shout and blood, good stuff started selling.

14:55

So all of a sudden those hesitations to carry those products, amazing how those hesitations disappear.

15:02

Once, um, those albums start to sell really quick. Yeah. So I, I probably owe you a thank you and some gratitude.

15:11

Cause I remember, so my buddy, you know, introduced me, like I said, to MXPX, Supertones. And then

15:16

I went to the family, I think it was the family Christian store at that time. I think they later changed her name to the family bookstore, maybe or something, but they took

15:25

Christian out with the title. I think, but I remember going in there and, and like going to that section, right.

15:30

And seeing the music and they used to have the CDs and you could actually like sample, you could like pop a CD in and listen.

15:36

And you know, that's where I, that's where I ran into focal point and overcome, um, you know, and that was like, that was hard.

15:45

They were heavy. Oh yeah. And that, and that changed my life. Yeah. And I think unashamed, I got there like that, that changed my life.

15:51

And I was like, what is this? And of course, both of the, well, overcome and focal point have connections with Ryan Clark and solid state and to the nail now, but, um, and demon hunter is lead singer of demon hunter.

16:04

But, uh, yeah, like that stuff changed my life, but it's because the guys like you, it's like, I listened to the label podcast, you know, and they always joke about the charts and all that stuff.

16:12

But like, it's because of that, that, you know, I got into this music scene and it really opened my eyes to a lot of things and really changed my life in some really awesome ways.

16:22

Um, so real quick though, one of the funny things about those charts is that when we, when we did them for like tooth and nail oriented bands, it was really hard to find secular or mainstream bands that to, to, to do the comparison.

16:37

So everything was rage against the machine, like literally everything. I mean, it was just, it was just one of those things that, you know, there just wasn't a lot of comparisons because what tooth and nail was doing was really original.

16:49

Yes, you're right. You're right. I mean, a lot of those bands that came up early on, uh, you know,

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I, in many ways I think have, have led the way in the music industry, especially into like the metal and the hardcore scenes.

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And you're right. There wasn't even, they were coming up the same time as the secular, all the underground secular bands, you know, so they, you're right.

17:08

There wasn't anybody to compare them to, you know, if you like corn, like that was probably, you know, so when a band for a tooth and nail band goes out and sells like 30 or 50 ,000 people, that's not that many records.

17:18

But in that genre of style in mainstream, they're not selling a whole lot more than 50 or 60 ,000 of those albums.

17:26

Some of those ones that are comparable to focused, um, or to the blamed or some of the other ones that you mentioned, it's not a large popular style of music.

17:35

So the metal we didn't, we couldn't keep up with some of the grind core death metal. We weren't selling, you know, no one's selling Metallica numbers, but for the underground, really darker style of music, they actually, they were pretty competitive in terms of what everybody else was selling.

17:50

Yeah. That's so awesome. Um, and so I, if you, again, if you missed the first episode we did, um, one of the things that's been so cool to me in this whole process of exploring this whole story really is just how, so we had

18:03

Darren on and, you know, ultimately he came to Christ because of Brandon Neible and then immediately got discipled by David Bonson.

18:09

So he immediately was a theonomist post mill. Um, he reformed all immediately.

18:16

Um, and, um, and he probably was getting, he probably was getting discipled about now a little bit after you, maybe

18:22

David, but, uh, so that was one end. And we just talked about how, you know, his, what he does with the camera has really influenced us.

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And then I shared the story of how ultimately I became presuppositional because of Matt Morgenski from the

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Supertones, um, directly taught that to me. And, um, you know, so it's just, it's just cool to see all this come together.

18:45

And then, um, so that's kind of what's spurned this conversation. Um, so, so yeah,

18:52

David, so you can just kind of say that your musical tree goes back to Brandon Neible, but your theological tree goes back to David Bonson.

19:01

Absolutely. Uh, in terms of those influences and yet they don't meet if frontline doesn't fold.

19:06

Right. And Diamante comes out of the ashes of frontline and we start hiring all these phone reps.

19:13

Right. Absolutely. Yeah. It's pretty exciting. Yeah. It's, it's totally amazing. And I actually, without getting this too far off track,

19:20

I wanted to make sure I mentioned this. Um, I've been thinking a lot this week. I was talking to Jerry, um, from, from cultish

19:28

Jeremiah Roberts this week. And we were talking about the law of God and obviously how that again goes right back to, to David and to his dad,

19:36

Greg and, uh, theonomy and all that. And I really haven't been a theonomist that long, like maybe six years, like we started apology radio and I didn't know what theonomy was.

19:45

And so as we started apology radio, we, I really was kind of learning about God's law and all that then.

19:53

Um, but my point I'm getting at is, is it's, it's really amazing. Again, talking about God's sovereignty.

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Um, I think God was preparing us back then and getting us ready because every, like literally every discussion that we have now, whether it's with the

20:11

Colts, whether it's with the social justice movement, you name it, every discussion somehow is coming back to the law of God.

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And it's your view on how you, on how you look at God's law. And, and so it's just really, it's,

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I'm excited just thinking about that. Just how God's been preparing us. And like, we have the answers. A lot of people don't have those answers right now because they, they don't have a high view of God's law and, and they not using that objective standard to answer questions.

20:36

And, um, I feel like we can answer any question because we have that standard. And it's why, you know, without running too much into politics, since it's outside of the purview of this show, it is why when you watch what's going to happen tonight on whatever station is carrying the debate, there's just going to be no real answers to anything.

20:55

Uh, the answers and then the next day, whatever they said tonight, tomorrow, they're going to backtrack and reverse on it.

21:02

When you don't have a standard, you're going to end up with what we're currently dealing with.

21:07

Right. Absolutely. Um, well, Hey, so David, we're, we're going to go to break in about eight minutes.

21:13

So what's you had like a bunch of stories you listed. So give me, give me another story you want to share before we go to some of these stories.

21:19

I won't say the actual name of the band, but, um, it'll be pretty easy for most people to kind of figure out. But I was sitting up at a sales conference.

21:26

We were in, I think Nashville or whatever. And there was a band and we were talking about their next album, which is actually my favorite album from this particular band.

21:33

And they were saying, Oh yeah, the album is going to be called. And they gave me the name of the album. And I said, Oh my gosh, that's really for this band.

21:40

That's kind of really forward in the, you know, being very Christian sounding. And it was a band that kind of, you wouldn't think of necessarily wanting to fit into that niche or whatever.

21:50

And then I looked down and, um, and I saw that they were having some, uh, Newcastle Brown ale and it was the, uh, slogan on the beer bottle.

22:00

And, uh, which later ends up, um, being, being the name of the album. So it's just, you know, and I don't know if they, if they were inspired by it or if it was just one of those things that it just happened to be a coincidence, but I, I laugh every single time.

22:14

I, I, I see that in a, in a store. Um, yeah, just, you know, and it's just, and it's just kind of the stuff that only tooth and nail would do that.

22:23

Um, right. The band 90 pound was, yeah, this is my one great, and I've actually gone back and repented of this.

22:29

Um, but this, this actually happened, walked into a Christian bookstore and they said, there's no way in the world. I'm carrying a band called 90 pound was in my store.

22:38

And I said, well, you gotta understand, you see someone yelled out from the crowd one day at a show that Jesus was nothing but a 90 pound was.

22:45

And so they were inspired. You know, it was just the seat of my pants. I'd make something up to get the album into the store.

22:52

Um, later went back to the store and apologize. But the funny thing was, is that the next sales conference, people came up and said,

22:59

Hey, did you ever hear? So I guess it's spread because the other sales reps all around the country heard that exact same story.

23:07

Um, and I, I felt super bad, but it was like, man, I was just desperate to get that thing, uh, that thing in.

23:12

Uh, but my favorite story, actually one of the neatest thing that happened is I was at, there was a thing called Tom fest. Um, great, by the way, there was a great band called sometimes

23:20

Sunday that put out a couple albums on tooth and nail and lead singer. Sometimes Sunday put on this festival here in the

23:26

Pacific Northwest, um, called a Tom fest. And I think it went for like 11, 13 years or whatever.

23:32

And the first year was in Stevenson County fairgrounds, right? A lake.

23:37

And, and it was like every tooth and nail band, every five minute walk band. It was just this killer lineup of people.

23:43

And, uh, MXPX was there and they had just kind of started. Um, maybe the second album, teenage politics was about to come out.

23:51

And I think the mom of one of the guys, I don't know if his Mike's mom or whatever was kind of road managing or managing them.

23:57

And a bunch of kids came up and they were complaining that MXPX wasn't Christian enough for them.

24:04

A bunch of audio adrenaline youth group kids coming up complaining about it. And, um, she's all like, well, you know what?

24:10

They're 14, 15 years old. They're kind of just writing about things that they're into. And some, some youth pastors says something like, well, they're obviously not into the

24:17

Bible. Um, and that, that set off the, both the salesperson and the apologist in me.

24:25

Um, and, uh, started a very lengthy conversation, which at the very end, actually almost all of those kids were like,

24:30

Oh, okay. I get it. I understand what they're doing now. We looked at scripture. We looked at the Psalms. We looked at a whole bunch of different areas about how, how scripture writes about everything.

24:41

Um, scripture is not relegated to a particular subjects, um, the Psalms and the

24:46

Proverbs and song of song. They write about a diversity of subject matter. And Charlie Peacock, a great

24:53

Christian artist has written on that subject as well. And, um, so it became a real big positive and, and whoever's mom it wasn't dancing.

25:03

Oh my gosh, thank you. That was great. I'm still going to steal a bunch of this stuff, but it became a passion to defend, not just the music and the style and the look and the,

25:12

I mean, I dealt with that enough in the eighties when I had, you know, Striper show up at my Christian bookstore that I was the manager of, um, you know, the, the, the four girls with the earrings.

25:22

Um, I dealt with that apologetic enough that that sort of stuff was easy, but, but their content of Striper was always like super Jesus -y and easy, you know, what we call the

25:33

J quotient, which is Jesus per note. Um, and that's actually something we talked about.

25:40

Mine was the content. How do we, how do we have an apology in a sense for the content of diversity of thought within the music that was coming out on Tooth and Nail?

25:53

Yeah. Yeah, that's good. Cause I know I listened to the label, even Brandon talks about how like he didn't start

26:01

Tooth and Nail for it to be a Christian label and he had bands on there at least with, at least with members that weren't

26:07

Christians, you know? And I remember, man, this gets into a whole nother discussion that we probably won't have time for today, but I can remember like, cause coming up as like a

26:16

Tooth and Nail kid, just like, if there wasn't, I was one of those kids that was like, you know, if they weren't talking about Jesus every show,

26:22

I was mad at him. You know what I mean? And, and it's like, but I had no idea really what was going on.

26:29

Um, and you know, and I can remember even like seeing bands that have like, they were drinking beer and I was like, what is their problem?

26:35

You know, like this was before I was reformed. Uh, so, uh, you know, but just, yeah,

26:40

I was like one of those, one of those youth group kids that loved the music, but was super judgy of, of the, of the bands themselves and how they are.

26:48

And trust me, I got to know quite a few of them. You didn't want them to talk about Jesus from the stage. Um, do we have like one minute to share?

26:56

Yes. Go for it. Okay. This is one of my favorite stories and it's actually a little bit before this. And this has a conversation that's, uh, the

27:03

Christian artist, Steve camp had with Carmen. Okay. Um, and Carmen actually covered several of Carmen's biggest, uh, hits were actually

27:10

Steve camp songs. Really? Uh, like you cover me. It's actually a beautiful song.

27:16

It's a great song. And that's actually a Steve camp song that Carmen covered. And, uh,

27:21

Carmen said, you know, to Steve one day, cause you know, if you would just stop it with all this theology, you would sell a whole lot more records.

27:29

And, and, and Steve camps response and was like, I'm glad you stopped it with theology.

27:35

Um, because Carmen is, was at that time, very word of faith and just horrific theology within his, his worldview.

27:44

And so Steve camps retort was like perfectly spot on and getting back to the tooth and nail. There were just some people you're probably better off if they didn't speak from the stage.

27:53

You wouldn't know. Cause a lot of them were just immature. Not about that. They didn't love Jesus, but man, they just weren't there.

28:00

It's like, Hey, I got saved six weeks ago. Started a Christian band sort of thing. You don't, those people, I don't necessarily need them talking to my youth group about the gospel.

28:09

Well, plus you think about, you know, you see a lot of bands now that maybe you've been around for awhile and then you see them, you know, renouncing

28:16

Christ. And I think of, you know, Aaron Gillespie and Spencer from under oath, which destroyed my heart when

28:22

I heard that. But, um, I mean, Derek Webb is, I think one of the Oh yeah. The mainstream

28:28

CC. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, um, and so like, but you think about it really this, this, uh, thing that's plaguing our church and our culture is with teens, you know, they grow up thinking they're

28:44

Christian and then they graduate high school and real life hits them or they go to college and all of a sudden they're not

28:50

Christians anymore. And you know, there's a lot of reasons we can get into at a different time as to why

28:55

I think that is, but that, that, that affected a lot of these bands too. You get these bands that grew up in the youth group and they're like,

29:01

Hey, we love Jesus. And you know, and then they start to go on the road and they start hanging out with other people.

29:06

And then they're like, yeah, I don't really care about Jesus anymore. And, um, someone gives them a book by Rod bell or McLaren or something like that.

29:14

Yeah, exactly. And that's actually what happens to a lot of them. And I think a fun story that you'll appreciate was something maybe after the break, take a little while is, um,

29:23

Greg Bonson's impact on some of these bands. Oh, I'd love to hear that for sure. Um, okay.

29:29

So with that, we'll go ahead and go to break right now then. And then, uh, it's about four minutes. We come back, then we'll, uh, we'll have you pick up on that story.

29:38

So thanks everyone for watching. We'll see you at the other side of the break. The goal for new

30:27

St. Andrews college as a trains students is not to make people who will be able to go out and just get jobs, people who will just be bricks in the wall of our society.

30:40

The goal for new St. Andrews college is to make students into men and women who will really impact culture.

30:54

I want their faith to not just be something that stands, but something around which culture can be built.

31:00

We want students who can think critically about arguments, but also about the culture around them that can then speak clearly to it.

31:07

And that also have the ability to influence and shape because of the power of their message, because that's really what the gospel does.

31:14

The gospel throws down all the arguments against it. It speaks to the hearts of people, it influences, and it changes.

31:52

Go to apologiastudios .com,

33:20

get signed up, partner with us in all access. You get all of the radio programs, you get the TV show, you get the after show, including

33:26

Apologia Academy, and you partner with us in ministry, bringing the gospel around the world. All right.

33:37

Welcome back to Apologia Radio. It feels good to play some punk beats on here.

33:44

Brings me back to the day. I miss all that atmospheric trance music that normally is played.

33:54

You know what I've really been getting into? I'm trying not to get us off topic here, but I have really, especially when

34:00

I'm studying, I love to listen to just these instrumental 80s dark synth.

34:07

It's so awesome, and it's so great for studying because it just gets you in the mood and stuff. Anyways, there's all kinds of it on YouTube.

34:15

So, we're back. David, you were going to tell us about how

34:20

David Bonson ultimately is that Greg then influenced a lot of these bands directly. Yeah, and not just Tooth &

34:26

Nail bands, but obviously, I think when David, after David left and he was working with Tooth &

34:32

Nail, he left when Brandon left, and he started his own office to manage,

34:37

I think he was managing Plank Eye, Supertones, maybe Stavesacre, a handful of other bands, maybe Focused. He was taking care of their

34:44

T -shirts, getting them gigs, all that sort of stuff, and he was managing them. And I went to visit him at his office.

34:50

We were just kind of hanging out, and I kept noticing, he kept looking up at the TV, and so I turned around, and he was watching, and I don't know if it was

34:57

CNBC or whatever at the time. It was one of those things where they have a little ticker across the bottom for the stock market stuff, and I thought nothing of it until like 20 years later when you find out that he's one of the most sought -after and respected stock and financial advisors in the country.

35:15

And so, it was a love that was starting then. But he was obviously influencing the bands that he was working directly with,

35:23

Plank Eye, and Javelino was influenced as well. But Plank Eye, Supertones, obviously

35:28

Supertones. I mean, they have just some presuppositional songs. There's tons of songs that are...

35:34

I think there's one that mentions Schaefer, Sproul, and Bonson by name, Grounded from Chase the

35:41

Sun album. Great album, great time. That whole album is nothing but a pre -supped album.

35:47

But the one and only album by Plank Eye, which is my favorite album of theirs, is really a post -millennial album.

35:56

The album's all super post -millennial. There's this great song on there called Playground. In the chorus, it says, some things are the way they're meant to be in response to people just thinking that the world's going to hell in a handbasket.

36:07

This isn't the way that God wanted it. And the response from them is, I don't know, some things are the way they're supposed to be.

36:14

And he says, there's a line in that song about how you think you're leaving. And the chorus in the back or the guys in the back scream, no, 500 ,000.

36:23

What? I gotta go listen to that now. Which is kind of an ode to saying that in 100 ,000 years, who knows, they might look back and call us the early church.

36:32

I think there was like a David Chilton line. But it was about that you don't know. This planet could be around for another 500 ,000 years.

36:41

And so you need to be planning and living your life and having a legacy post -millennial -y thinking.

36:48

Are you passing that gospel down? So that whole record really is filled with tons of post -millennial ideas and inanimate ideas.

36:59

So that's some of that influence. But after Greg's passing,

37:06

David was going through a bunch of his dad's stuff and some stuff he gave to me, which there's some treasures that I have.

37:12

I have a first edition hardback of Lorraine Bettner's Reformed Doctrine of Predestination book with Greg's notes in the margins.

37:23

Dude, that's one of my favorite books, period. Not just Reformed, but period. It's incredible. I have

37:29

Chilton's book, his commentary on Revelation, and with Bonson's notes where he's agreeing or disagreeing in certain areas.

37:38

So I have several of Greg's books that David gave me. But the other thing he gave me was just stacks and stacks of the gateway drug to Bonson, which is the

37:47

Gordon Stein -Greg Bonson debate. That's where you start everyone. And he just gave me a bunch of those.

37:54

And so every time I would go and hang out with a band, I would just slip them, hey, you should hear this debate.

38:01

It's great. One of those groups with Caveman's Call, which later when you listen to the album 40

38:07

Acres, it's just one of the most presuppositional and Calvinistic albums out there.

38:13

You're right. I didn't even know that that was the influence on them. That's incredible. Yeah. The very first time we had a sales conference with Five Minute Walk, I gave

38:22

Reese Roper from Five Iron Frenzy a copy of that.

38:30

So I treated it like a track to guys that I kind of dig their music, wanted them to be introduced to Reformed theology.

38:37

I would just give them Bonson tapes that David had passed along to me. That's incredible. So there's a bunch of bands out there that have been influenced and influencing others that really don't, maybe not even know that a lot of their stuff goes back to Greg Bonson.

38:52

Yeah. Man, that's so amazing. Before we switch topics here for a minute, there's been a lot of,

38:58

I've heard this several times recently. I've heard it from Darren the most, I think. And I think the last show,

39:04

I think maybe even Jerry said it, but I feel like we're the punk rock when it comes to theology right now.

39:12

I've been hearing that a lot and it's like, man, it makes sense because we're not afraid to get our hands dirty. We're like the grungy, like let's just work hard.

39:21

We're in the middle of things all the time. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. So it's just cool just to think again about God's sovereignty and how a lot of these bands have influenced guys like myself and Apology of Studios without us even realizing it.

39:38

So that's exciting. And you know there's a kid out there was that owned

39:44

Chase the Sun because he's a Supertones fan and wondered who in the world is this Shogun Bonson?

39:51

And Googled and found out and got into Bonson. I guarantee that there's a ton of stories behind that.

39:57

Yeah. Oh, I'm sure there's. Yeah. Yeah, you're exactly right. Again, it's one of those things that probably this side of heaven, this side of eternity, we'll never know.

40:06

But one day it'll be like, oh, and here's your legacy from just this album.

40:14

So I wanted to stay in the same overall topic, but kind of switch here a little bit.

40:20

And so we were talking, there was I think it was two or three episodes ago, the label podcast did.

40:26

And again, if you haven't seen that, if you're into the underground music scene, you got to go check out this podcast. It's incredible.

40:33

But they did one with with KJ52. And so that's I was talking to Dusty this week, which is why one of the reasons

40:38

I want to make sure he was on and he's like, oh, yeah, I know KJ52. And so there was the story is with Tooth and Nail.

40:44

They actually started some. Well, I think, David, you correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe they started with Uprock and then and then they had

40:53

KJ52 and they ended up starting BEC, which is like their CCM, Contemporary Christian Music label.

40:59

And like he was on there and I think Supertones went to BEC too as well. Yeah, a lot of the bands that were were more commercially successful were kind of funneled over there.

41:10

And a lot of that had to do with that Brandon that that Diamante had a distribution deal with Tooth and Nail.

41:17

OK, but Brandon wanted to take a lot of his potentially bigger bands to another company, to EMI.

41:24

And so he put them on BEC. So Plank I moved over. Supertones moved over. Jeremy Camp released the first album immediately and then immediately got moved over to BEC.

41:35

And so that's kind of the larger distribution company ended up with the best selling of Tooth and Nail.

41:41

Gotcha. So so Dusty, you were you were in the hip hop music industry, if you will, before coming to Christ.

41:50

And so I just want to hear how all this kind of ties in with you personally, with your involvement in the music industry and again, with God's sovereignty and all that.

41:58

So, yeah, I was, you know, I was getting sober. That's first I got I was getting sober in Las Vegas and I was at my desk and, you know,

42:06

I've been involved in secular hip hop for a while. And then someone came to my desk one day and knew that, you know,

42:13

I was trying to get my life together and going to church and stuff. And he came down and he set a

42:18

CD on on my desk and it was Lecrae Church Clothes album.

42:27

And, you know, I'd always just listened to like the worst of the worst hip hop leading up to that point.

42:33

But, you know, tying in, you know, I was kind of introduced to Lecrae's music and then to Truth and KJ -5 -2 is his stuff is is stuff that I'm not a big fan of KJ, but, you know,

42:46

I enjoy I enjoy his backstory and he's really fun. I've met him a few times and done events with him.

42:53

He's a fun guy. But, you know, tying into the story, what you guys were talking about earlier about how you don't want some of those artists talking about theology with their audience, how that's better, you know, that that's still the argument today in like Christian hip hop transferred over.

43:10

It's like, well, if you're not saying Jesus over and over again, you can't technically be labeled as a

43:16

Christian artist. And that's created this thing where Christian artists and we talked about people saying,

43:21

I don't believe or going apostate is they sometimes blame it on the fans because they're like, well, they're calling out every single thing that I do in my life and saying that I'm not

43:34

Christian enough. And it ends up pushing them away. That's what happened with Under Oath.

43:39

Yeah. Yeah, exactly what they said. Yeah. Yep. So it's it's just it's interesting to see how that argument continues to go on and continues to, you know, make artists want to not even be involved in the having the

43:54

Christian label. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. I mean, Jay, Jay Givens, I'm thinking hip hop, you know,

43:59

Jay. Yeah. We've talked about this. That was some of the crush me because I love Jay's music and he was on Humble Beast and, you know, was about two was a year and a half ago, maybe.

44:08

Yeah. He announced that he was no longer a Christian and that he was homosexual and that he was, you know, have a meth addiction,

44:16

I believe. Right. Yeah. And now he has AIDS. Right. Yeah. Yes. And I don't I don't know that I don't think he would say that he's not a

44:23

Christian anymore. OK, but but that's, you know, another conversation, conversation. But then on the flip side, we talked about in the break, like you got some like Chance the rapper who, you know, is who is super mainstream.

44:36

And, you know, if if you wouldn't said I love Jesus, you wouldn't have any idea that he loves Christ. Right. Yeah.

44:42

But then and then he goes, oh, yeah, I love Christ. And he talks about how he's I believe he says he's a Christian. Right. And yeah. But then, you know, here's the lyrics and here's some of the stuff he says.

44:49

And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Time out. Yeah. What's going on here? And, you know, I've heard the conversation about it with artists.

44:57

They say they, you know, talk about Chance just being someone who talks about his life at that moment.

45:03

And I know there's a lot of bands that are like that as well, where they just they talk about their life and what's going on at that moment.

45:09

At one time, there was a lot of drug stuff going on for Chance. And then there was a transitional period.

45:14

And now, you know, he's it's getting softer and it seems to be getting softer and softer.

45:20

But, you know, that is the question is like, do you want some of these guys really being the ones who like raise up a generation of younger

45:29

Christians and talking about their theology or, you know? Right. Absolutely. So, David, you were saying you were saying you had an early on Christian hip hop.

45:41

Yeah, I don't know. We were we were one of the first labels. This is back in the front line days.

45:46

And we had P .I .D., which was Preachers in Disguise. And they were kind of old school rap. But in terms of the first true legitimate gangsta style rap,

45:55

West Coast rap was a group called the Gospel Gangstas. Yes. And that first album is still one of the truly great

46:04

Christian rap album, truly great rap albums. It's a brilliant I think there's like 17 songs.

46:09

The thing goes on for like 84 minutes. It's really a long album. We were just happy that that thing came out in the era of CDs because and but it was incredible.

46:22

But imagine walking into a Christian bookstore in that era at that time and saying, yeah, there's a few

46:27

N words on this album. So, I mean, it was it was legit. It was heavy.

46:33

But if you know anything about that album, it's worth owning.

46:39

It's worth tracking down. It's still a great album. I have to go check it out, too. I want to know what that sales pitch was like.

46:46

Seriously, especially I know what those guys look like, too. So here's the thing. This is one of our little little unknown stories of back in the front line days.

46:55

We sold a compilation in of different rap artists that had P .I .D. and D -Boy, who was actually murdered.

47:05

Really great guy, though. His mom was Rosie from The Cross and the Switchblade, was the real

47:10

Rosie from the story of The Cross and the very popular movie and book.

47:17

D -Boy was murdered after his second album. But we had a ton of different rap artists.

47:23

We were going well into that. We were working with a guy named Tim Miner, who worked with a bunch of artists. And so we were going to put out this compilation.

47:31

Well, this group, The Gospel Gangstas, had the best song on the compilation and kept sending in songs.

47:38

So we just released it. We pretty much just took the compilation away and released it as A Gospel Gangsta's first album and literally had zero returns on it.

47:50

Nobody complained because that thing was selling before it ever was released. Everyone knew about that band and they were legit.

47:59

Three of the four guys served time. It was not an imitation, fake rap album.

48:06

It was truly legitimate. It's a great album. And those guys, they did a tour,

48:12

I think, last year. In Vegas, my buddy who has a venue out there, he said that he had

48:18

The Gospel Gangstas come through. I don't know how long ago that was, but it's still rapping.

48:25

That's so awesome. Yeah. Very cool stuff. It's funny now. I think a lot of talking about just bands and groups, with solid theology,

48:36

I think Christian hip hop is really leading the way. You got

48:41

Humblebeast, you got Lamp Mode, Cross Movement.

48:47

A lot of these groups are straight reforms and have incredible... The lyrical theology they talk about, it's amazing.

48:54

A lot of stuff is just really worshipful. You got

49:00

Dusty, which by the way, how can people find your music before I forget? You can go to DustyMarshall .com

49:07

or you can go to I4Cshop, that's I, then number four, Cshop .com and you can get my album, all my music and merch and stuff there.

49:16

Yeah. Dusty just falls right in that category. We got our boy, Ivy Connerly, who should also be at ReformCon.

49:26

It's awesome and encouraging to see that. Speaking of that, then flip it back into the metal and punk and underground scene like that,

49:36

David. What bands, if you want to, because you shared this a little bit, what bands do you know of today that are really strong?

49:44

It's kind of interesting you bring it up. I find that lyrically, the two best styles are really, really hard, metal, thrash metal or hardcore and hip -hop seem to have the best lyrical content.

49:56

I've never found the punk rock bands generally to have great lyrical content. Supertones were a ska band, so they kind of stand out.

50:03

Plank Guy was more of an indie band. A lot of just the straight melodic pop -punk, usually just kind of fun -oriented songs,

50:11

Capital Lights and some of these other bands. But even early on, bands like Tourniquet, which is probably one of the best intricate speed metal bands, always had phenomenal content.

50:26

Wolves at the Gate, that's about as reformed as you can find. I think that within that genre of super heavy music,

50:37

I think Demon Hunter's stuff is lyrically really cool, really well done.

50:43

And here's a fun one for you, and I don't know how many people even know about this, but it's been I think two or three albums now.

50:50

And I think he's probably a little more in the charismatic line of stuff, and it definitely seems to be dispensational.

50:57

But Blackie Lawless from Wasp, the big 80s band, became a

51:04

Christian. And he's pretty legitimate, super solid. He wouldn't put an album out for years because he wanted to study. And their last album was called

51:11

Galgotha, and it's a brilliant song. Brilliant song. The video is amazing as well, but it is staggering.

51:20

It comes from the point of view of being that third person on the crosses, looking at Christ saying, you know, why not me?

51:28

Why the other thief on the cross? Very powerful, to the point where he's so open about his

51:37

Christianity. There was a shooting, I think it was like in Switzerland or in Sweden several years ago, and someone mentioned it to him while on stage.

51:44

He stopped the entire show, and in the midst of an obviously Wasp crowd, he made everybody pray with him for those who were impacted.

51:54

Literally right in the middle of the song. He just stopped it. And that last album, Galgotha, is worth tracking down.

52:00

But it is weird. I think within those two genres, really heavy music and the hip -hop music, you find some of the best content.

52:09

Shy Lin, obviously, that's a no -brainer when it comes to lyrical content. But just in general,

52:16

I think what is coming out from even just Tooth & Nail, Solid State seems to have kind of taken over for Tooth &

52:22

Nail. Most of the releases kind of fall under there. But I get really positive.

52:31

I think Thousand Foot Crutch is another one of those bands that writes great songs lyrically.

52:38

So, Mike Mann and the Branches is kind of a band worth looking into if you're not familiar with them.

52:45

Anyway, Mike Mann and the Branches, great stuff. Obviously, I mentioned Demon Hunter. So, I think there's a bunch out there that are consistently making theologically really strong music.

52:56

One band you brought up before, August Burns Red. Yeah, that's my band. I think that's one of those bands that they write great music.

53:03

Yeah, they do. And great lyrics. I mean, that stuff is pretty heady most of the time. Yeah. I just saw them in July, their tenure consolation.

53:12

Actually, when I did this last show, the first Tooth & Nail show, I was a day after I had seen them, their tenure consolations tour.

53:21

It was incredible. The best light show by far I've ever seen at a metal show. Oh, let me bring up one more band worth checking out.

53:29

It's not Tooth & Nail. There's a group called The Autumn Film.

53:35

Just a little indie band, female lead vocalist. Great. But they also have a side project called Page CXVI.

53:42

Yes. And it is those modern reworking of hymns that are staggeringly good. Yes. One of my good friends here at Apology, one of our deacons,

53:51

Gabe Johnson. Here you go, Gabe. Just a shout out. He loves them. It's like his favorite band. Yeah. No, right on, man.

53:58

This might make some people mad. I'm planning on going to see As I Lay Dying here in November, which

54:04

I'm very excited for. Talk about a band that's been up and down.

54:10

Are you Christian or you're not Christian? What's going on with you? Jail time and all the rest, but I'm excited to see them and I'm excited they're producing some music again that they've reconciled.

54:22

Dusty, what Christian artists have influenced you and your style and your music?

54:29

The Rep is a big influence. He's actually originally from Phoenix.

54:34

He lives in Vegas now, but just his transparency and his music, coming from a background in addiction and stuff like that, just in my music,

54:45

I really like to put out a lot of very transparent talk on a lot of deep topics.

54:53

He was someone, when I first started listening to hip -hop, I was like, man, or Christian hip -hop, he was one of those guys where I was like, man, this guy shies away from nothing.

55:05

He's talking about just really dark things that go on, whether you're

55:12

Christian or not, and he's not afraid to tackle it from a Christian perspective. He's not just putting out music that feels good.

55:20

He was a big one. Actually, when I lived out in Vegas, we got to hang out some. Right on, man.

55:27

That's awesome. David just texted me and said he's got to go. Hey, brother, thanks so much for being on, man.

55:34

This has been awesome. It's a blessing and I hope to be able to do more on this conversation with you in the future. I'd love it.

55:40

All right, brother. Thanks so much. All right. Talk to you guys soon. All right. Later. Sorry, you can continue. I didn't want to cut you off. Yeah, no.

55:45

Just listening to his music, he's very lyrical, and I came up in an underground scene of hip -hop.

55:56

I've always been into dark music, whether it's Christian or not. When I say dark, I mean talking about things that people probably wouldn't talk about normally in normal conversations.

56:09

For instance, what we talk about with abortion and the album that I put out talking about an area of abortion or porn addiction or just all the things that seem taboo somewhat in society, he was talking about it from a

56:25

Christian perspective. I really respected that. Right on. I think we talked about that the last show you were on.

56:31

That's one thing I love about the guys like you and Ivy and just some of these and even like Seven.

56:39

We didn't talk about Hog Mob, but talking about raw and real, Hog Mob is the real deal.

56:47

I love that about, I think it's hip -hop more than talking about metal and stuff, but just the rawness of music and what you've gone through and how it all points to Christ.

57:01

Again, just talking about God's sovereignty. Here, there's three of us and we all have completely different stories, but how

57:09

God orchestrates everything and all at some point ties in together somehow.

57:15

It's just amazing. I love just hearing stories like this, how it all points back to God and his sovereignty.

57:22

I think that comes back to also being a genuinely talented artist.

57:29

We talked about being genuinely who Christ has made you to be, but being able to express that in music and make it good music.

57:42

You talk about the supertones and how they're reformed and post -mill and being able to express that but make the music really interesting and a lot of people can rally around it.

57:53

There's an art form in that too because you can be really genuine but make music that people are just like, okay, that's cool.

58:01

If you can make it very relatable and catchy but have that same deep message in it, well then that's a real genuine art right there.

58:12

No, you nailed it. I think this one we talk about a lot is just making art and specifically we're talking about music here to the glory of God.

58:21

I don't want to harp on this, but a lot of the issues we have with mainstream Christian media is that there might be good theology and might have good lyrics, but the music's terrible.

58:37

You're right. You mentioned the supertone, someone who had incredible theology and at the time

58:43

I didn't even realize when I was listening to him, I didn't even realize how solid the theology was, but the music was awesome.

58:51

This is what we're should be modeling really our creator and that he created all things good.

59:01

We should have that same mindset where not only is there going to be good lyrics, but the music itself is awesome and it's good and it glorifies

59:12

God. It's not terrible because I would say terrible music does not glorify God because you're not doing the best that you can do.

59:19

Yeah, you can do it two ways. You can make terrible music that maybe sound theology and that's still questionable, but then at the same time is you can make really great sounding music, but the topics and the context could just be horrific and then it's still bad.

59:41

Yeah, exactly. Right on, man. Well, I think we're about done here. Thank you,

59:47

Dusty, for being on today. I'm glad you got to pop in here. Thanks. Thanks for having me. Yeah, absolutely. Again, as a reminder, sign up for ReformCon.

59:55

It's reformcon .org. Hope to see you here in October. As always, I say this sincerely.

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I don't want to sound like I'm being a dead horse to this, but we legitimately appreciate all of our

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All Access subscribers. You literally make all this happen. The lights, the power, the gospel is free, but electricity is not.

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We thank you. If you are not on our All Access, you can subscribe to there. You can go to apologiestudios .com

01:00:23

and sign up. It's $9 .95 a month, I believe. Please join with us, partner with us in what we're doing.

01:00:32

Also, go to endabortionnow .com. Check that out. We've got exciting stuff.

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Again, Babies Are Murdered here too coming out and a lot of exciting stuff going on right now with EAN.

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As always, we're thankful again to everyone for checking this out.

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I don't think we'll have a show next week because we will be all out of town, but in two weeks,

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I know we should. I'm just going to end with this if you don't mind. Let's do it.

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Thank you. This is, by the way, Desi's new track,

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American Holocaust. Check it out on YouTube. I forgot there's this long intro from Jeff.

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We're just going to talk over it for a while. They're killed through abortion.

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There's a number of different ways that you can take the life of your child in our country through abortion.

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You can kill your child via a pill. They have medical means of abortion through a pill that you take into your body and it ultimately kills your child through a medication.

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There's also means of abortion that are most common in terms of the surgical abortion where the doctor goes into the woman and essentially pulls the little boy or little girl apart limb from limb.

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Sharp instruments and tools are forced into the woman to tear the child into pieces, literally into pieces.

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There's blood on our hands, on our hands, on our hands. They're murdered on our watch, in our city, in our lands.

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At the point of conception, DNA is in their strands. But we kill them anyway. Trade our children for our plans.

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It's sad to see these dads who refuse to be a man. We'll kill the wrong son. What was done to son of man?

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I'm mad at the womb, but I'm feeling like a hypocrite. In my past, I was militant.

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Apart from God, I'd kill my kid. We're living in his lies. A righteous God rightly judging us.

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Suppressed and rejected, him to self -inflict genocide. I search inside the scriptures for the...